Thank you all for this important discussion! As a middle-aged lesbian, I have watched with an aching heart as more and more gender non-conforming women decide that transition is the best option. Voices like Aaron and others speaking up gives me hope.
It's heartbreaking but illuminating how some people's fear of same sex attraction leads them to prefer to embrace an appearance based social fiction rather than acceptance of a reality that challenges their perception.
I sad to my wife the other day, we are loosing all the great butch lesbians to this nonsensical idea that their masculinity is somehow making them actually men. I am not butch. I look sort of "hard femme", but my personality is quite masculine and my wife is very feminine, in every way. While I was never attracted to butches, my wife kind of is. She likes that I am taller, stronger and that my personality is masculine but she also loves me for my female attributes. She doesn't want a man in me. She wants the woman as I am. I have seen many of my lesbian sisters succumb to this twisted view. It saddens me. We want our butches back. Be the women you are. You are not men.
Thank-you. I hope you will support my efforts to carve pathways back into relationship with one another. Many of us still care very deeply about lesbians. If I can demonstrate that it can be done, others will follow. I’m very confident about this. They’re scared and don’t think they’d be welcome back. I need to prove them wrong.
I wish I could be more butch, but being shorter than almost everybody else, and feminine-looking, it's never been an option for me. This kept me away from transitioning. If I were taller and more naturally masculine I think I might've transitioned. Sometimes I wonder how much of me being gender critical boils down to the fact that transitioning never felt possible for me. Whenever women speak of loving their partner being taller and stronger it hurts a little to not be able to deliver with that. I think this heartbreak is common to many lesbians who only set themselves up to a male standard otherwise everybody else assumes they like certain things in bed.
So important to talk about the lack of role models of butch lesbians who don’t call themselves non binary or queer, and how this makes medical transition more likely 😢
Thank you Aaron for telling your story and for fighting against homophobia which, i agree, is still rampant today, like "gay" being used as a slur and the fight against visibility of gay and lesbian people in education. I wish you all the best for your future!
I know several transitioned girls who now live as boys or men. I am pretty sure most of them are lesbians so I really hope they learn to accept that - so that they don’t feel the need to medicalise. My fear is that some may already be on hormones. It’s very worrying.
This is not much different than in the gay male world. Really effeminante men are not well respected. I think there needs to be some healing for and acceptance of our brothers and sisters in our own communities.
Really effeminate gay men reject other gays to chase "straight men". They also impose gay culture and pop diva culture on other gaus by trying to shame the masc guys as fakers cowards.
I think we should be trying to be more focussed on raising boys as boys and girls as girls. The trans conversation is ‘encouraging’ and pedastalising homosexuality (within the crosshairs of ‘bashing’)
Good grief. You’ve learnt nothing from this whole mess. It’s people with a problem with homosexuality that’s led to people like Aaron being in the situation they’re in. ‘Raise boys as boys’… I despair.
I really hope that women can get back to the place where we can have those spaces that nurtured us in our various states. Not that we were ever perfect with/to each other, but we did strive to be accepting and make space for each other. This trans movement has really put a wheel in the spokes.
As a gay man from canada we barely have any spaces to meet other gays and lesbians anymore because all the straight people are going there now because they feel more comfortable supposedly
Aaron is such a bright light in coping with this trend. Will you be updating us on the separate category of heterosexual women who got caught up in social contagion transition to male anytime soon?
Take a listen our old episodes with Helena. She speaks very well to this. Laura Becker also spoke about this earlier this year. And last fall we interviewed Chloe Cole which might interest you, as well.
What an amazing process....and I wish her all the Best. It takes a lot of fortitude I imagine. As a gay man,.the old Aaron would have had me fooled--at least what I saw online.
This is so interesting and there are so many things going on in my head over this whole topic ,but I'm not able to formulate them properly in order to contribute with too much of a meaningful summary of them. Suffice to say thanks to all three of you, and appreciate all of your work on this topic as a whole Sasha and Stella
Aaron is looking great! She's lost a lot of weight. The probably ironic thing about it is that she went from being a very typical balding man in early middle age to a hotter bro-ish-looking young man. I know she's wearing the cap to hide her baldness, but almost every single male podcaster of a certain age also wears a cap now. Combine that with her gorgeous eyes, which I've always found striking, and I can see why gay guys are hitting on her! Thanks for sharing her story. I've wondered by the Transparency Podcast has been dark for so long.
9:56 - makes a lot of sense. Some people do transition I think because they're afraid of being gay or lesbian and because they come from Bible belt backgrounds. I can't count the number of times in my lifetime as a gay man that I've been called a girl or a woman because I didn't act like what people expected a male to act like. I never internalized those messages, but they still hurt in a way. I still live in the Bible belt today unfortunately. I've tried to move out of this area but it's never worked out lol. I am still alive though. I'm also rural, not even in a town, so it's lonely
This whole issue, "trans ideology", is rooted in misogyny which leads directly into homophobia. You touched on all the major important points. The best example of what happens in most local communities, absolute community lockout for the existence of lesbians and and gay men. This was always the reason we used to leave home to and find our people in urban areas. Going back then just disrupts the apple cart. Not surprised to hear about your mother's response. After 45 years of being an out lesbian, mine accidently let it finally slip during a phone call that I'm "... just wrong." Shocked, I couldn't get off of the phone fast enough and later wrote her a letter with all the reasons not to contact me ever again. Homophobia is still very much alive and well. That is what needs to be addressed.
Very interesting discussion. Something that seems relevant here is that we’re hardwired to perceive sex differences. (There are plenty of studies documenting this.) So, when a lesbian takes testosterone for awhile she will most likely be read as male. If you create a female only space but there’re male presenting females in it, it sets up a cognitive dissonance. People handle that in difference ways. For me, the dissonance is so uncomfortable that I choose not to deal with the cause of the dissonance. I have yet to figure out how to resolve the dissonance. I’m probably not the only one feeling this and probably not the only one removing myself from the dissonance. Asking a female only community to accept the male presenting individual is going to be a really hard sell for many, I think.
I've seen leftist teens online claiming Republican women are going to get exactly what they want when trans men start using women's bathrooms, and were rubbing this point in with "I told you so". I think they still don't realize the other side (gender critical) believes it is the male category that should be open, not female. Trans men don't pose a threat to men. So they may continue using men's bathrooms if the cognitive dissonance is too much and if they would make women uncomfortable. Being on testosterone does significantly alter one's appearance.
Aaron is so brave. Detransitioners do need community and medical support which they don’t really have right now. It’s part of the reason it is so hard for those questioning their “trans” identity since they feel trapped because of how deplorably detransitioners are treated and the permanent changes to their bodies. People like Aaron are incredible, selfless role models paving the way and showing younger detransitioners that it gets better.
I'm happy about every lesbian who detransitions. And...it's not as simple as "having a right to be in female only spaces because you're female". A butch woman and a transman (even when detransitioning) have a very different effect on female only space. We have a say in what kind of space we want - especially after being pushed out of women's spaces by transpeople (ftm & mtf), & having to recreate them in secret. And frankly, there are some feelings there... you turned your backs on us. You didn't want to be women/lesbians anymore - and many of you scorned those of us who still are. You wouldn't believe the misogynistic & anti-feminine abuse we've gotten, expecially from transmasc/transmen! That caused deep, deep hurt. So hearing that there was talking & negotiation... that's good. Because simply showing back up, just because you've changed your mind, and forcing us - once again! - to deal with your maleness/masculinity is not how it works. It's not fair, and definitely not a right. You've given up your right to women's spaces & can't just demand it back. I agree it's important to create ways back for deetransitioning lesbians - but not with the typically male presumption that women are required to do that care work, emotional work, and make space. Not again. So: how would you create a feminist, respectful way forward? One that doesn't just focus on the needs of the detranslesbians - but one that keeps women/lesbians in focus? One that acknowledges the hurt and harm that was caused by the transcommunity, and transmen? What could that look like?
Those were exactly the kinds of conversations we had. Like I said in my Heterodorx conversation, no woman should be forced to have that conversation, but many want to. Especially the younger generation who see all of their lesbian friends transing. They want them back. Who is responsible for equipping and resourcing those young lesbians, if not older lesbian feminists? The young lesbians in particular were very grateful that I showed up for them. I’m well aware of how painful it all is and how much damage has been done. It’s time to heal and rebuild for this next generation. My focus is on them, who’ve been duped by this ideology and will realize it when this all comes into the light. It’s not their fault. I won’t barge in. I’ll accept invitations.
What a great interview! I think I have a bit of a crush on her! She def has female energy. So much to be learning about all this. I was involved in the LGB "community' years back. I knew so little.
I love this, thank you so much! Women doing the work. What's not to love, right? So thankful for the lesbian only spaces and events. That they have to happen by invitation only is a shame. So many young women will miss out because they're not connected, and may well transition without the support of real lesbian women who believe their spaces matter, and for reasons. Being in a woman only space with not even the hint of a male in the place... so valuable! #priceless Love the gesture. Cheers from @DownUnder
Thanks. Interesting. I know plenty of lesbians who see themselves as butch who did not experience it as if the women's or lesbian's groups had become smaller and also not that they saw themselves as anything other than women. They went through a long painful period of having their spaces taken over by trans identifying women calling themselves lesbians. So the lesbian feminists found themselves struggling for their spaces that they had created and being kicked out from them. I suspect it partly is a generational issue also, since the TQ activists first target was feminist women and our spaces. It was obvious that they didn't want younger women to find us. Well, it's not really a discussion for a YT comment. My best wishes to you.
We have no lesbian community it went down hill in the 80s recreational drugs, aids crisis, men challenging women’s space, influx of b&d and other “sex positive” activity aarrgghh
The physical transformations due to hormones being irreversible must prevent loads of other ppl detransitioning. I think it should be a crime to prescribe anything as harming to under 18’s. Personally I don’t believe 18 is old enough either but that’s another fight for another day.
Raises all kinds of questions about whether all gender nonconformity and same sex attraction has a biological component, something I’ve always thought highly possible but doesn’t explain feminine lesbians 🤔
I think gender nonconformity and same sex attraction aren't really tied in together. They might align for some but it's not a rule or requirement for desiring to sleep only with the same sex. Using your logic, people who are more gender nonconforming are "gayer" than others and that's just not how homosexuality works. I do think there's many biological components to homosexuality and gender nonconformity, but I would guess that they are two different and independent structures.
I'm not saying epigenetics don't count (like androgen/hormone insensitivity), where gender differences cause homosexuality alongside gender nonconformity. I just suspect there must be some activator gene or structure for homosexuality (or rather, non-heterosexuality) that exists independently of gender nonconformity, and perhaps nonconformity just increases the likelihood of activation, but isn't itself necessary. Many if not most people are bisexual so I think there actually must be two different structures for liking same sex and opposite, acting as filters. Maybe default is bisexual and the activator genes make one hetero or homo. I think the science really is way more complex than whatever people think of when they say "gay gene".
Interestingly enough all the supposed "brain gender" studies seem to point more to sexuality or gender non-conformity rather than male v female brain. The issue is how do you unpick what caused the difference? Is it neoroplasticity like how a taxi driver who knows their city very well has a different brain? I think ppl are also a bit scared that environmental and social factors play a role. Everyone just prefers to not think where their attraction comes from and that's why "born this way" has a pull despite little evidence that it's true.
@@robertmarshall2502 Environmental factors may play a role. But I have had plenty of homophobic colleagues say this - principally straight men. I always tell them they're right and if they were raised by the neighbors, they would like taking it in the ass😁🤗 suddenly they don't seem to favor environmental factors so much... My fantasies with women began when I was a toddler as I remember and there is likely a reason for that. I think the fact that many homosexual animals exist in nature is very strong evidence for a biological component. We still just cannot prove it. Be careful with not being homophobic here.
Being a woman is not an aesthetic.... I feel bad for trans ppl cuz they will never not be in a constant state of transition cuz society's definition of gender roles change and shift...and is different depends on where you go...
Stella and Sasha, since it's a part of this conversation I just want to ask have either of you hosted a religious guest on the topics of sexual orientation or gender? And I'm talking about religious people who have experience in the medical world on these issues. I'm asking because they are having these conversations too and I wish I could have you all in the same room to have these conversations. I understand if there is skepticism because of the treatment Aaron and others have experienced.
@widerlenspod I watched your interview with Dr. Haim. I'm talking about individuals like Dr. Quentin Van Meter. Individuals who are more controversial. Dr. Haim didn't strike me as socially conservative.
It is so sad that any parent would disown their child. But, one thing I've never understood in this conversation is the "phobia" part of the discussion. The conservative community Aaron grew up in may have acted wrongly, but I don't understand how that is a phobia. To be in disagreement does not necessarily imply fear. To apply this in another area, is someone who is politically liberal a "conservophobe"?
Aaron, you KNOW that your abundant facial isn't normal, even among those of us who have natural facial hair. Asking you to shave your face is not the same as asking you to shave your legs.
Her abnormality is not inappropriate. It's not unhygienic or obscene. It is absolutely like asking her to shave her legs. Actually, its like asking her to wear a veil imo. She is not obliged to labour conformity to your culture
I hear this theory that parents would rather have a trans kid who then dates the “apparent” opposite sex than a gay kid. But that just doesn’t track with my experience with talking to parents. Trans is generally seen as way more extreme than gay, and way more of an adjustment for the parents.
35:00 toilets - good thinking. Single Sex spaces depend on safeguarding: a social contract of no male whatsoever in the space. That safeguarding works depends on going by what we perceive. Therefore a transman, though biologically female, breaks that safeguarding, so should use the men's room. S/he's no danger to anyone there - while transidentified males endanger women just by breaking safeguarding, even if they'e perfectly nice people. If one kind of male is allowed in, the worst kind will abuse that immediately. As we're seing everywhere sex is being replaced by gender identity & self-ID.
I really wish we could just get a brief introduction and then jump right into the interview. I really don't like hearing your impressions of the guest before I've had a chance to form my own.
I don't think that lack of eye contact in men's bathrooms is necessarily "homophobia". It's just that most men are somewhat aware that gay men have a long history of meeting each other in bathrooms, that they don't want to give off the wrong signals. That doesn't mean that they are "homophobic", it just means they're straight. If you look at me "too long" in a bathroom, I will assume that you are gay and interested in me. If I like you I will smile at you awkwardly for just a moment, because I find it weird to hook up in a bathroom. If you look at me and I'm not at all interested in you, I will pointedly look away. If I was looking for a sexual hookup, it would have been more than an awkward smile of course. That's pretty much how it works in my experience. About trans identified women "passing" as men, I'm not so sure that you are correct. Often indeed, as with Buck Angel, my first impression will be "gay man". Then, looking closer, I will find that something is "off" about their mannerisms. In the past I would have stayed confused, but now that I have observed several "trans men" more closely, I think I recognise it most of the time.
It's both. Aaron was always a homosexual female, a lesbian. "Identity" sometimes gets used to describe labels/words we use to describe ourselves, but there's also a psychological aspect to identity. The mental self-concept. So, you can say Aaron was always a lesbian and that is true, but psychologically dis-indentifying and re-identifying with womanhood/femaleness/butch lesbianism are significant psychological processes, and it's worthwhile to have language to describe those shifts. Indeed, the gender identity ideologists would say that the language of identification is offensive as it locates the problem as originating in the mind of a person, rather than being an abstract truth about them. "I don't *identify* as a man, "I *am* a man" being an example of what they might say. Tl;dr "identity" is a useful and meaningful concept for understanding and talking about trans issues even from a more gender critical or realist perspective
homophobia? Never in my life I met someone who would be scared of homosexual people. Phobia = irrational fear. How do you treat it? With medicines? Or maybe psychotherapy? Or even both? xD "homophobia". xD Do you use this term as a substitute for anger problems?
This problem is in the heads of the people accusing everyone else for something they have a problem with. We dont care wath people are so thay need to stop talking about this
I am not trying to science? Wath, I'm saying is they ate not any different then other people so get you facts right,thay should get on eith life@siobhannoble8545
@Aaronkimberly. Such articulate thought and deep reflection on one of the missing discussions on this topic and it has crossed my mind from that first scripted email declaring transness from my high functioning, adult daughter. Seeing the big picture and down the road that this experience and reality occur to her along with the possible short and long term health challenges were my initial concerns. This is the first chat I've heard that directly addresses the very real problem of what happens when so many realize this isn't so cool or healthy to have to be so rigid, opaque and secretive?. I burst into tears at a few moments of Aaron's share for her and for everyone facing this. Sharing your courageous struggle with the world while holding onto the compartmentalization required to make sense out of it all , your share called up oodles of compassion. I thought I raised her with broad acceptance that we come in all diff presentations, some of us are androgynous and don't need to be stuffed in a box but it wasn't enough insulation against society, peers and a partner"s influence. Her crew, career, ugh it could all be at compromise. May you, she and all be at peace. I hope you get this support svce off the ground and that it brings true stability and wellness to so many in need of it.
Thank you all for this important discussion! As a middle-aged lesbian, I have watched with an aching heart as more and more gender non-conforming women decide that transition is the best option. Voices like Aaron and others speaking up gives me hope.
It's heartbreaking but illuminating how some people's fear of same sex attraction leads them to prefer to embrace an appearance based social fiction rather than acceptance of a reality that challenges their perception.
Great episode. ❤I am a butch lesbian and also a detransitioner. I will share this episode on my channel.
Please share your channel here.
@ @detransjoy
@@detransjoy💗
Hi Chance👋
I sad to my wife the other day, we are loosing all the great butch lesbians to this nonsensical idea that their masculinity is somehow making them actually men. I am not butch. I look sort of "hard femme", but my personality is quite masculine and my wife is very feminine, in every way. While I was never attracted to butches, my wife kind of is. She likes that I am taller, stronger and that my personality is masculine but she also loves me for my female attributes. She doesn't want a man in me. She wants the woman as I am. I have seen many of my lesbian sisters succumb to this twisted view. It saddens me. We want our butches back. Be the women you are. You are not men.
Thank-you. I hope you will support my efforts to carve pathways back into relationship with one another. Many of us still care very deeply about lesbians. If I can demonstrate that it can be done, others will follow. I’m very confident about this. They’re scared and don’t think they’d be welcome back. I need to prove them wrong.
I wish I could be more butch, but being shorter than almost everybody else, and feminine-looking, it's never been an option for me. This kept me away from transitioning. If I were taller and more naturally masculine I think I might've transitioned. Sometimes I wonder how much of me being gender critical boils down to the fact that transitioning never felt possible for me. Whenever women speak of loving their partner being taller and stronger it hurts a little to not be able to deliver with that. I think this heartbreak is common to many lesbians who only set themselves up to a male standard otherwise everybody else assumes they like certain things in bed.
I have been told on tiktok that because I'm a masculine woman I am actually a transgender man and haven't realised it yet
The gays brought this filth in to be frank leo varadkar is one of them sorriest day Ireland gave gays equality
Beautifully stated
So important to talk about the lack of role models of butch lesbians who don’t call themselves non binary or queer, and how this makes medical transition more likely 😢
So grateful to Aaron Kimberly and her candidness in sharing her experience. Very much appreciated this interview.
Thank you Aaron for telling your story and for fighting against homophobia which, i agree, is still rampant today, like "gay" being used as a slur and the fight against visibility of gay and lesbian people in education.
I wish you all the best for your future!
What a very, very impressive young lady. She has a level of personal and social insight that the majority of people don’t have.
I know several transitioned girls who now live as boys or men. I am pretty sure most of them are lesbians so I really hope they learn to accept that - so that they don’t feel the need to medicalise. My fear is that some may already be on hormones. It’s very worrying.
@@Lizzy1ES it’s epidemic 😭
This is not much different than in the gay male world. Really effeminante men are not well respected. I think there needs to be some healing for and acceptance of our brothers and sisters in our own communities.
💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗
Really effeminate gay men reject other gays to chase "straight men". They also impose gay culture and pop diva culture on other gaus by trying to shame the masc guys as fakers cowards.
💓
I think we should be trying to be more focussed on raising boys as boys and girls as girls. The trans conversation is ‘encouraging’ and pedastalising homosexuality (within the crosshairs of ‘bashing’)
Good grief. You’ve learnt nothing from this whole mess. It’s people with a problem with homosexuality that’s led to people like Aaron being in the situation they’re in. ‘Raise boys as boys’… I despair.
I really hope that women can get back to the place where we can have those spaces that nurtured us in our various states. Not that we were ever perfect with/to each other, but we did strive to be accepting and make space for each other. This trans movement has really put a wheel in the spokes.
💗💗💗💗💗💗
As a gay man from canada we barely have any spaces to meet other gays and lesbians anymore because all the straight people are going there now because they feel more comfortable supposedly
I want to give Aaron a hug. Please bring them back annually. I love this discussion.
Aaron is such a bright light in coping with this trend. Will you be updating us on the separate category of heterosexual women who got caught up in social contagion transition to male anytime soon?
Take a listen our old episodes with Helena. She speaks very well to this. Laura Becker also spoke about this earlier this year. And last fall we interviewed Chloe Cole which might interest you, as well.
@ Sasha gave the update in the interview with Az: they’re largely socially limited to affiliating (especially romantically) with each other.
Another super interview and such an important conversation to have. Thanks Stella and Sasha!
What an amazing process....and I wish her all the Best. It takes a lot of fortitude I imagine. As a gay man,.the old Aaron would have had me fooled--at least what I saw online.
You absolutely do have beautiful eyes…they twinkle 🤩 I’m sorry you didn’t have support and acceptance growing up and even now. Sending good vibes❤
This is so interesting and there are so many things going on in my head over this whole topic ,but I'm not able to formulate them properly in order to contribute with too much of a meaningful summary of them. Suffice to say thanks to all three of you, and appreciate all of your work on this topic as a whole Sasha and Stella
I LOVE Aaron… Thank you for having this interview with her.
And oh my… those beautiful Sinead O’Connor eyes… pass the smelling salts!
Great episode. I miss Aaron T and Aaron K as a team. I hope they're still friends even if they're not doing their podcast together.
Aaron is looking great! She's lost a lot of weight. The probably ironic thing about it is that she went from being a very typical balding man in early middle age to a hotter bro-ish-looking young man. I know she's wearing the cap to hide her baldness, but almost every single male podcaster of a certain age also wears a cap now. Combine that with her gorgeous eyes, which I've always found striking, and I can see why gay guys are hitting on her! Thanks for sharing her story. I've wondered by the Transparency Podcast has been dark for so long.
So much of what is happening today wouldn’t be near as bad if homophobia wasn’t so strong throughout the globe.
The gays are what lead to this queer non-gender extremism. So I understand why homophobia exists.
9:56 - makes a lot of sense. Some people do transition I think because they're afraid of being gay or lesbian and because they come from Bible belt backgrounds. I can't count the number of times in my lifetime as a gay man that I've been called a girl or a woman because I didn't act like what people expected a male to act like. I never internalized those messages, but they still hurt in a way. I still live in the Bible belt today unfortunately. I've tried to move out of this area but it's never worked out lol. I am still alive though. I'm also rural, not even in a town, so it's lonely
Congratulations Aaron 🥳 And thank you. ❤
I am looking forward to listening to this today. I just realized that she is an alumna to where I went to art school. ❤
oh man... 'escape hatch' to womanhood, that really resonates. a phrase i've been using so much.
Thanks all. Great interview again. All the best Aaron!
I'm a natural woman with a natural beard that I've shaved everyday for years. Some do, some don't.
Dwarf?
This whole issue, "trans ideology", is rooted in misogyny which leads directly into homophobia. You touched on all the major important points. The best example of what happens in most local communities, absolute community lockout for the existence of lesbians and and gay men. This was always the reason we used to leave home to and find our people in urban areas. Going back then just disrupts the apple cart. Not surprised to hear about your mother's response. After 45 years of being an out lesbian, mine accidently let it finally slip during a phone call that I'm "... just wrong." Shocked, I couldn't get off of the phone fast enough and later wrote her a letter with all the reasons not to contact me ever again. Homophobia is still very much alive and well. That is what needs to be addressed.
Very interesting discussion. Something that seems relevant here is that we’re hardwired to perceive sex differences. (There are plenty of studies documenting this.) So, when a lesbian takes testosterone for awhile she will most likely be read as male. If you create a female only space but there’re male presenting females in it, it sets up a cognitive dissonance. People handle that in difference ways. For me, the dissonance is so uncomfortable that I choose not to deal with the cause of the dissonance. I have yet to figure out how to resolve the dissonance. I’m probably not the only one feeling this and probably not the only one removing myself from the dissonance. Asking a female only community to accept the male presenting individual is going to be a really hard sell for many, I think.
I've seen leftist teens online claiming Republican women are going to get exactly what they want when trans men start using women's bathrooms, and were rubbing this point in with "I told you so". I think they still don't realize the other side (gender critical) believes it is the male category that should be open, not female. Trans men don't pose a threat to men. So they may continue using men's bathrooms if the cognitive dissonance is too much and if they would make women uncomfortable. Being on testosterone does significantly alter one's appearance.
Aaron is so brave. Detransitioners do need community and medical support which they don’t really have right now. It’s part of the reason it is so hard for those questioning their “trans” identity since they feel trapped because of how deplorably detransitioners are treated and the permanent changes to their bodies. People like Aaron are incredible, selfless role models paving the way and showing younger detransitioners that it gets better.
I'm happy about every lesbian who detransitions. And...it's not as simple as "having a right to be in female only spaces because you're female". A butch woman and a transman (even when detransitioning) have a very different effect on female only space. We have a say in what kind of space we want - especially after being pushed out of women's spaces by transpeople (ftm & mtf), & having to recreate them in secret.
And frankly, there are some feelings there... you turned your backs on us. You didn't want to be women/lesbians anymore - and many of you scorned those of us who still are. You wouldn't believe the misogynistic & anti-feminine abuse we've gotten, expecially from transmasc/transmen! That caused deep, deep hurt.
So hearing that there was talking & negotiation... that's good. Because simply showing back up, just because you've changed your mind, and forcing us - once again! - to deal with your maleness/masculinity is not how it works. It's not fair, and definitely not a right. You've given up your right to women's spaces & can't just demand it back.
I agree it's important to create ways back for deetransitioning lesbians - but not with the typically male presumption that women are required to do that care work, emotional work, and make space. Not again.
So: how would you create a feminist, respectful way forward? One that doesn't just focus on the needs of the detranslesbians - but one that keeps women/lesbians in focus? One that acknowledges the hurt and harm that was caused by the transcommunity, and transmen? What could that look like?
Those were exactly the kinds of conversations we had. Like I said in my Heterodorx conversation, no woman should be forced to have that conversation, but many want to. Especially the younger generation who see all of their lesbian friends transing. They want them back. Who is responsible for equipping and resourcing those young lesbians, if not older lesbian feminists? The young lesbians in particular were very grateful that I showed up for them. I’m well aware of how painful it all is and how much damage has been done. It’s time to heal and rebuild for this next generation. My focus is on them, who’ve been duped by this ideology and will realize it when this all comes into the light. It’s not their fault. I won’t barge in. I’ll accept invitations.
thank you!
Show us a picture of the tractor!
What a great interview! I think I have a bit of a crush on her! She def has female energy. So much to be learning about all this. I was involved in the LGB "community' years back. I knew so little.
I love this, thank you so much!
Women doing the work.
What's not to love, right?
So thankful for the lesbian only spaces and events. That they have to happen by invitation only is a shame. So many young women will miss out because they're not connected, and may well transition without the support of real lesbian women who believe their spaces matter, and for reasons. Being in a woman only space with not even the hint of a male in the place... so valuable! #priceless
Love the gesture.
Cheers from @DownUnder
Thanks. Interesting. I know plenty of lesbians who see themselves as butch who did not experience it as if the women's or lesbian's groups had become smaller and also not that they saw themselves as anything other than women. They went through a long painful period of having their spaces taken over by trans identifying women calling themselves lesbians. So the lesbian feminists found themselves struggling for their spaces that they had created and being kicked out from them. I suspect it partly is a generational issue also, since the TQ activists first target was feminist women and our spaces. It was obvious that they didn't want younger women to find us. Well, it's not really a discussion for a YT comment. My best wishes to you.
We have no lesbian community it went down hill in the 80s recreational drugs, aids crisis, men challenging women’s space, influx of b&d and other “sex positive” activity aarrgghh
Even if you’re accepted by society, you will still cause damage to society.
The physical transformations due to hormones being irreversible must prevent loads of other ppl detransitioning. I think it should be a crime to prescribe anything as harming to under 18’s. Personally I don’t believe 18 is old enough either but that’s another fight for another day.
Raises all kinds of questions about whether all gender nonconformity and same sex attraction has a biological component, something I’ve always thought highly possible but doesn’t explain feminine lesbians 🤔
I think gender nonconformity and same sex attraction aren't really tied in together. They might align for some but it's not a rule or requirement for desiring to sleep only with the same sex. Using your logic, people who are more gender nonconforming are "gayer" than others and that's just not how homosexuality works. I do think there's many biological components to homosexuality and gender nonconformity, but I would guess that they are two different and independent structures.
I'm not saying epigenetics don't count (like androgen/hormone insensitivity), where gender differences cause homosexuality alongside gender nonconformity. I just suspect there must be some activator gene or structure for homosexuality (or rather, non-heterosexuality) that exists independently of gender nonconformity, and perhaps nonconformity just increases the likelihood of activation, but isn't itself necessary. Many if not most people are bisexual so I think there actually must be two different structures for liking same sex and opposite, acting as filters. Maybe default is bisexual and the activator genes make one hetero or homo. I think the science really is way more complex than whatever people think of when they say "gay gene".
Interestingly enough all the supposed "brain gender" studies seem to point more to sexuality or gender non-conformity rather than male v female brain.
The issue is how do you unpick what caused the difference? Is it neoroplasticity like how a taxi driver who knows their city very well has a different brain?
I think ppl are also a bit scared that environmental and social factors play a role.
Everyone just prefers to not think where their attraction comes from and that's why "born this way" has a pull despite little evidence that it's true.
@@robertmarshall2502 Environmental factors may play a role. But I have had plenty of homophobic colleagues say this - principally straight men. I always tell them they're right and if they were raised by the neighbors, they would like taking it in the ass😁🤗 suddenly they don't seem to favor environmental factors so much... My fantasies with women began when I was a toddler as I remember and there is likely a reason for that. I think the fact that many homosexual animals exist in nature is very strong evidence for a biological component. We still just cannot prove it. Be careful with not being homophobic here.
Being a woman is not an aesthetic....
I feel bad for trans ppl cuz they will never not be in a constant state of transition cuz society's definition of gender roles change and shift...and is different depends on where you go...
Stella and Sasha, since it's a part of this conversation I just want to ask have either of you hosted a religious guest on the topics of sexual orientation or gender? And I'm talking about religious people who have experience in the medical world on these issues. I'm asking because they are having these conversations too and I wish I could have you all in the same room to have these conversations. I understand if there is skepticism because of the treatment Aaron and others have experienced.
Check out our episodes with Vanessa Sivadge and Eithan Haim.
@widerlenspod I watched your interview with Dr. Haim. I'm talking about individuals like Dr. Quentin Van Meter. Individuals who are more controversial. Dr. Haim didn't strike me as socially conservative.
It is so sad that any parent would disown their child. But, one thing I've never understood in this conversation is the "phobia" part of the discussion. The conservative community Aaron grew up in may have acted wrongly, but I don't understand how that is a phobia. To be in disagreement does not necessarily imply fear. To apply this in another area, is someone who is politically liberal a "conservophobe"?
Aaron, you KNOW that your abundant facial isn't normal, even among those of us who have natural facial hair. Asking you to shave your face is not the same as asking you to shave your legs.
Her abnormality is not inappropriate. It's not unhygienic or obscene. It is absolutely like asking her to shave her legs.
Actually, its like asking her to wear a veil imo. She is not obliged to labour conformity to your culture
I hear this theory that parents would rather have a trans kid who then dates the “apparent” opposite sex than a gay kid. But that just doesn’t track with my experience with talking to parents. Trans is generally seen as way more extreme than gay, and way more of an adjustment for the parents.
Depends on the parents and their communities...
Yeah i mean clearly it's true for some people like it was for Aaron here but it's definitely not universal
Complete honesty is the key and I don’t think you got that.
11:27 the gay man and the lesbian in heterosexual marriages should’ve gotten married to each other!
Have Stella and Sasha interviewed detrans lesbian Carol?
Yes. During Season One.
35:00 toilets - good thinking. Single Sex spaces depend on safeguarding: a social contract of no male whatsoever in the space. That safeguarding works depends on going by what we perceive. Therefore a transman, though biologically female, breaks that safeguarding, so should use the men's room. S/he's no danger to anyone there - while transidentified males endanger women just by breaking safeguarding, even if they'e perfectly nice people. If one kind of male is allowed in, the worst kind will abuse that immediately. As we're seing everywhere sex is being replaced by gender identity & self-ID.
A choice for the greater good ? People are not props for anyone
I really wish we could just get a brief introduction and then jump right into the interview. I really don't like hearing your impressions of the guest before I've had a chance to form my own.
Yeah their reaction should go at the end. They could put clips at the beginning like Andrew Gold does if they want a teaser.
Hes just outed the closeted gay man. Everyone near him will know he sold a tractor 😮
😂 you act as though anyone here goes on the internet. He’ll be fine. Trust me. Lots of tractors get sold around here.
@AGKimberly hope so.
I don't think that lack of eye contact in men's bathrooms is necessarily "homophobia". It's just that most men are somewhat aware that gay men have a long history of meeting each other in bathrooms, that they don't want to give off the wrong signals. That doesn't mean that they are "homophobic", it just means they're straight. If you look at me "too long" in a bathroom, I will assume that you are gay and interested in me. If I like you I will smile at you awkwardly for just a moment, because I find it weird to hook up in a bathroom. If you look at me and I'm not at all interested in you, I will pointedly look away. If I was looking for a sexual hookup, it would have been more than an awkward smile of course. That's pretty much how it works in my experience.
About trans identified women "passing" as men, I'm not so sure that you are correct. Often indeed, as with Buck Angel, my first impression will be "gay man". Then, looking closer, I will find that something is "off" about their mannerisms. In the past I would have stayed confused, but now that I have observed several "trans men" more closely, I think I recognise it most of the time.
Lesbian is not an Identity. It's a characteristic.
to ijansk: woman is an identity. Lesbians are women.
@@celinede-nh9ek Woman is not an identity it's a biological reality. Attraction is not an identity
@@not_ever Yes I agree with you.
It's both. Aaron was always a homosexual female, a lesbian.
"Identity" sometimes gets used to describe labels/words we use to describe ourselves, but there's also a psychological aspect to identity. The mental self-concept. So, you can say Aaron was always a lesbian and that is true, but psychologically dis-indentifying and re-identifying with womanhood/femaleness/butch lesbianism are significant psychological processes, and it's worthwhile to have language to describe those shifts.
Indeed, the gender identity ideologists would say that the language of identification is offensive as it locates the problem as originating in the mind of a person, rather than being an abstract truth about them. "I don't *identify* as a man, "I *am* a man" being an example of what they might say.
Tl;dr "identity" is a useful and meaningful concept for understanding and talking about trans issues even from a more gender critical or realist perspective
❤🇬🇧❌❌
homophobia? Never in my life I met someone who would be scared of homosexual people. Phobia = irrational fear. How do you treat it? With medicines? Or maybe psychotherapy? Or even both? xD "homophobia". xD Do you use this term as a substitute for anger problems?
Some people do hate gay people. And some people do fear gay people, especially gay men. Read about the lavender scare.
People need to stop expecting special treatment for life choices. Just get on with your life and stop accusing people of having an opinion 😂
This problem is in the heads of the people accusing everyone else for something they have a problem with. We dont care wath people are so thay need to stop talking about this
Clearly you do care, or you wouldn't be trying to silence them.
I am not trying to science? Wath, I'm saying is they ate not any different then other people so get you facts right,thay should get on eith life@siobhannoble8545
@Aaronkimberly. Such articulate thought and deep reflection on one of the missing discussions on this topic and it has crossed my mind from that first scripted email declaring transness from my high functioning, adult daughter. Seeing the big picture and down the road that this experience and reality occur to her along with the possible short and long term health challenges were my initial concerns. This is the first chat I've heard that directly addresses the very real problem of what happens when so many realize this isn't so cool or healthy to have to be so rigid, opaque and secretive?. I burst into tears at a few moments of Aaron's share for her and for everyone facing this. Sharing your courageous struggle with the world while holding onto the compartmentalization required to make sense out of it all , your share called up oodles of compassion. I thought I raised her with broad acceptance that we come in all diff presentations, some of us are androgynous and don't need to be stuffed in a box but it wasn't enough insulation against society, peers and a partner"s influence. Her crew, career, ugh it could all be at compromise. May you, she and all be at peace. I hope you get this support svce off the ground and that it brings true stability and wellness to so many in need of it.
Sorry, my first post was terribly unedited..