Another thing is Mythos and Logos is the same translation for "word" and the way that the ancient Greeks saw mythos and logos, was that they were not complete opposites but two different ways to convey the truth, another thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is the image of Ifrit risen looks like Neon Genesis when Unit 01 has the wings, and the symbol that Ultima has, looks like a Sephirot
To everyone who played FF in their childhood, who traveled to other worlds and loved their time there .. I just want to say that i see you, and im glad that we are comrades in this experience. We are very fortunate to enjoy this series in a way that wont be possible soon enough. Keep loving final fantasy ❤
@@TheOneGreatI hated 15 but after 16 I've gone back and realised the world of 15 feels significantly more alive, lived in and "real". 16's endless hallways, lack of civilisation, lack of quests outside of fetch, hunt and "talk to the local people" made it feel like the fakest videogame world ever. Also the story literally forgets bearers exist halfway through... The main point of the fucking story itself is thrown out the window for a different focus out of nowhere
@@liamace1107XV had only 2 towns the whole game tho. How does it feel more alive? Especially since all the NPC are all copy pasted with side quests only for you collect dog tags, ingredients, and catching frogs? Sorry I have to disagree with that one lol. And the bearers were forgotten about if you done the side quests.
@@Rithysak101Dont listen to the xboners (like @liamace1107 ) that throw nonsnesical criticism at the game. They just hate for the sake of hating The game lives and dies on free will and the relation of powerhungry/dependant humanity with magic and slaves. Beares are the focus point of the game.
Clive's voice opens the game, and his lines sounds very much like he's reading from a novel. The last line of the opening is, "And thus did our journey begin." The very last line of the game, also in Clive's voice, is, "Thus did our journey end." Like the last line of a novel. I believe Clive survives. We have lines from Jill shortly before the ending about the always dawn coming and Clive always coming for her. We have a line about not even the Phoenix being able to bring back the dead, mind, perhaps Ultima's spell could, given he's trying to cast raise. I don't think Clive casts Raise on Joshua though. I think that would take much more energy than he uses, and the energy seems to be fire-based, not Ultima's blue. I think he's just using Phoenix's power to make Joshua whole. All this to say, I believe Clive lives, and that we "play" the novel.
My take is that Clive survives the Ultima battle, we see this in him being still alive on the coast, but has sacrificed all his Eikonic powers to remove the Blight and Aether from the world I think, and his arm was consumed by the Curse, which means that he didn't have much time left, but it was more than likely enough to write a novel. Joshua surviving is pure speculation, we get zero evidence of that. Agree on the novel part.
@@JuliusCaesar103my take is that Clive lives but his son writes the book and they called him Joshua. A tale of his parents fight for survival and love. Clive HAS to live for it to be a complete book. Nyssa Defile was Clive and Clive only. Phoenix Gate's sole survivor was Clive aswell. The only person to live the entire thing was Clive.
I wish clive had chimed in with some narration at every point in the story when you enter a new area, like heavensward. would've been so good man, i loved the intro narration from him.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that felt like this. 16 is also in my top FF games along with 6 and 7 and type 0 and tactics mainly due to the story. Sub earned for sure
@@diegeticfridge9167 Yeah. If anyone deserved a happy ending, it was Clive. His entire adult life, almost 20 years, he hasn't known peace. I was desperate for him to live happily ever after with Jill.
Clive narrates the beginning and ending of the game, as if reading from a book Clive also has a sidequest where he and tomes talks about Clive writing down his adventures once his mission is complete. Clive’s mission was to honor the legacy and wishes of Cid, whose name he took to complete his wish. So he took Josh’s name after honoring Cid’s legacy, and wrote to book to honor Joshua’s legacy. And at the very end when the sun rises, Jill takes a deep sigh of relief and starts smiling, as if she’s seeing something that we don’t. Probably Clive. And also, as for Joshua being alive, consider that Clive healed his body with powers of the phoenix, which already stated in game the phoenix “can heal the flesh but not the spirit” And not only that, his body doesn’t move or breathe at all after being healed. And Ifrit and Phoenix needed to be merged in order to use Raise, the resurrection spell.
Something I only recently looked into and learned about was the the XVI tarot card, which is called “the tower”. Besides imagery and themes the tarot card has relating to FFXVI the Japanese cover of the game is really close to the card itself. Clive stepping beyond the tower(crystals) and smoke where great kings rule onto Gods territory(the floor is the final battle ground) aiming to destroy it with the powers he has been given.
Great video, the themes tackled in the game resonated heavily with me and I’m glad I found this video to better understand some of the symbolism I might’ve missed,
The ending being beautifuly ambigous is such a refreshing take. I simply believe joshua is resurrected by clive's newfound power as he followed his duty as first shield to the very end. I also like how FFXVI tackle religions in medieval times, and many depiction of man's departure against old values in the name of religion for political gains (bearers and dominants exploitation) that is not necessarily easy and straightforward thing to do as they are very dependent on magic, stunting man's development.
i congratulate you for this beautiful video! im late to this and finished the game a while ago so ill say what i remember. since Joshua was on origin i speculated that he might died despite the heal clive did on his chest. after that he see clive looking at the night sky with clear petrification signs on his hands. afflicted faster than usual. with torgal's sad howl at the moon, jill's and gav's crying in realization of clive's passing. at least that how i preserved it. as a tragic tale with a good ending!
droppin this here because I'm glad you made a vid on this game and I'm sure it' gonna be a good one, gonna hold on to watch it until after I get a chance to play the game for myself first. FF games are just on a special tier in my heart that I think having things spoiled for me might taint the experience for me, so because of this I wanted to leave you a note of encouragement even if I gotta withdraw my view for now. Will be revisting later and look forward to it!
I will post this comment before I watch the video. Like you Max, my favorite Final Fantasy game was FF9, hey I even named my child after Adelbert. I finished FF16 last night and that was an incredible experience but you know what, FF16 story serve as the contrast of what FF9 takes on existentialism and determinism :)
Interesting and intriguing at the same time. After my 1st playthrough, the idea of fate and free will is came to my mind at another FF game but I could not remember clearly. However, you have reminded me it is similar as FFIX, and some other game. Knowing this made me more interest to finish the 2nd playthrough. Thanks for the video! 👍🏾
Awe ... Great video and excellent work, as always. Though I was hoping you'd have explored the symbolism of 'Magic' (in FFXVI's world context) more within this video. Magic ... it would seem, presented everyone that had it quite a burden. Not only Bearer's and Dominant's, but even the Fallen and Ultima. The more and more it was used, the more everything that _it used_ became cursed. Consider that Ultima is the 'God of humanity', the Creator ... he/they are not _the_ God though. God did not create humans here. What she created were the planets within her universe, and they are always very much considered *alive* in FF works. Made of Aether. That very same Aether that seems to be the fuel of spells. Historically ... Final Fantasy titles have often used magiteks to symbolism man's creation from and subjugation of _Nature_ . Their means to bend Reality to their will. But in XVI I believe Magic was used to represent this. Not only that ... but being that Aether = Magic and Aether = God's material to create ... in this story, Magic is very much the _will_ of the real God. So, where am I going with this ... Idolatry. Both humans and Ultima's race used magic and destroyed (or nearly) both of their worlds doing so. They both used the 'Will of God' to achieve a paradise that only God could create. But God 'shalt have no other gods before me'. Ultima's race destroying the Fallen, and almost doing so to humanity (again?) at the end of XVI had Ultima won. Clive destroying and taking the godlike eikons, before ultimately destroying Ultima. For anyone else using God's Will ... the only result will be Death, and in the case of Bearer's, they were turned to stone. Or if you think about it another way... Idols. Of false gods. Here's the punchline ... In order to break that chain, one must break free of that will of another. Magic ... had to be denounced and destroyed. That was the only way humanity or any being can break free of the true God's Will and create their own path. Ultima was not able to do so, constantly relying on magic and aether to do the things they thought to do. And as dark as slavery and subjugation of a person is, it had a silver lining. So to speak. Peoples' will evolved and developed over time to subconsciously realize that magic was not good to be doing. And what else resides within the subconscious, according to Jung? Dark emotions. That made manifest. And so... humanity suffered. And _will_ continue to suffer. Always. There is no spell to cast to fix your everyday problems. You have to fight. You have to endure God's true will. Just to survive ... because your consciousness itself makes you a God when you create your own story, and put it into a book. Just as God had done ... the Bible. EDIT: Ultima said at the end that the world was dead, a blackened husk. But when Clive destroyed, denounced, or rather _returned_ magic back to the source ... the planet was able to become 'whole' again. With God's Will restored as they intended ... the planet was able to recover and be that which God willed it to be. I'm not convinced the rebirth or resurrection is for either Clive or Joshua, but the planet herself. EDIT 2: Something else occurred to me. Could it be that Clive's choices were never his own...? Could it not be that Ultima was the foil of the one true God, and that is who went to battle? Ultima was destroying worlds, bending and breaking God's design or rather Will to do so. Clive is, after all, a vessel. That was his purpose. His design. Who is to say _what_ took hold of that ... Humanity's Will? Maybe the planet itself? Or maybe the one true God? To stop what Ultima was doing. Ultima was doing what they thought they had to do to break free of God's Will too, when you look at this way. More symbolism ... Clive's hand. The one he used to fling magic. The one he held up at the beginning and held a fireball, and at the end when that fireball faded away for his hand to become stone. The Hand of God..... And the cover art. Ifrit vs Phoenix. Is it really just to represent the first big fight of the story? Or the joining of the two at the end? Or might meant to mean Ifrit = Ultima, the destroyer of worlds and of God's Will ... With Phoenix = true God, to stop the collective of consciousness into one being and rebirth a world where individual consciousness is born from the ashes. The child that was born at the end to Edda ... is from Ash... Magic is still real though. In our Reality. Our Universe. You all may know it by another word ... *Manipulation* . Words can be woven into another's brain just right to produce a result you desire. People resent and hate this. They hate the _bearers_ of such a gift!
Magic in FF16 is very much like mako in FF7. Makes life easier, but it is killing the world. If you want to see it as something different, it is possible. But the environmental messaging is pretty clear. I think it is punctuated by the scene after the credits with the boys and their mother living in a more simple world without magic.
@@thatoneLerrydude Is this mentioned in the 'active lore' or with Tomes, or elsewhere? One thing I plan to do is talk to more NPCs during my new+ play through. The NPCs that don't have quests or anything to do with anything other than additional dialogue. There is likely good nuggets of lore info from a couple of them that otherwise would be missed entirely.
Crazy thought I just had. Now that the immediate relatives of the Phoenix-bearing bloodline are all dead, and an apparently magical child, from Ash, was just born right after Joshua's death... HMMMM it seems too convenient to be false. Edda's child is perhaps the new Dominant of the Phoenix. This fact would be in favor of determinism, as the child was already slated to be born before we knew Josh would die, therefore Josh's death was already written in fate...
Coming back to this video after some days, i just realized how much i love the discurse of ff16 about god and free will. I think its a concept that many people didn't get at the end of the game.
This was an amazing analysis, i’m glad that a lot if the things i noticed you did as well, which meand i was not overthinking it lmao. Great video!!! ❤
Great video have liked your other ones so was glad to see you tackled 16. Just beat it two days ago so catching up on 16 content because even if you watch spoiler free videos the RUclips algorithm will start recommending other similar videos and jerks put huge spoilers in the thumbnail and titles. Fantastic game Creative Business Unit 3 has been on a roll.
In some summaries of Final Fantasy XVI's ending on the internet, some suggest that a boat can be seen on the horizon during the sunrise that Jill looks towards right before the screen turns black, implying that Clive is alive and returning to the Hideaway, and that Jill's tears are subsiding because she sees him. My initial interpretation, because I didn't see any boat, was that the curse over the sky had ended, and that the sunrise was simply the result of Clive's sacrifice, and Jill was coming to terms with that. But now that I've seen this video, and have come to accept that the ending is intentionally ambiguous in order to challenge the player to practice the ideals espoused by the game, that of human will overcoming fate... ...honestly? Now that I look back, I think I 'did' see a boat on the horizon. Yeah, in fact, I'm sure of it, now...
Clues towards Clive and Joshua’s survival: Clive: 1. Harpocrates encourages Clive to write (specifically about his journey) when he puts down his sword 2. In the final Gav SQ Clive states his desire to write 3. When arriving with Jill to Boklad, Jill and Clive converse about how much Clive read and enjoyed stories of Gods vs Men in his youth 4. It’s possible all Clive did was close Joshua’s wounds, so as to not leave him in a bad state in death, it’s stated in lore entries that the Phoenix is not capable of resurrection. It’s possible that with Ultima’s power it could be done, but we see Clive make use of Ultima’s power immediately after the Joshua flashback and his hand sparks with a Blue and Black flame, we see no indication of this when healing Joshua 5. The book at the end bears the Hideaway’s symbol, I don’t see why Joshua would do this unless asked to, due to only joining very recently prior to the ending 6. At the official FF16 cafe there is physical copy of the book in a glass display, next to it is a quill (presumably the one given to Clive by Harpocrates) 7. He’s the narrator 8. The Platinum trophy is called “The Chronicler” accompanied by an icon of the book, funnily enough Clive begins the game’s opening narration with a quote from Moss the Chronicler Joshua: 1. The book’s stated author 2. Joshua had already been writing a journal throughout the game with his findings on Ultima (and possibly the events of the game) 3. Harpocrates encourages him to write as well, and even compares him to Moss the Chronicler, a famous historian and Harpocrates’ mentor 4. Metia fades, the obvious implication is Clive’s death 5. Jill and Torgal feel Clive’s aether fade, it’s stated by Clive and Joshua that dominants can feel each other when Jill is kidnapped (this could also be because ALL aether in general is fading) 6. When Clive returns to the Nexus with Ultima’s power, his chest suddenly appears bloody (prior to hugging Joshua for the last time) so it’s possible he had a gaping chest wound similar to Joshua’s. This could mean that even if Clive survived the spell, and the bearer curse disappeared before it could take him, he could have died simply due to the massive wound 7. We don’t see his body post being healed, we don’t know where he ended up, as opposed to Clive who has a “final” scene 8. When Clive pep talks him at Phoenix Gate, he talks about how the point of his duty is the guard the Phoenix so that it could one day “rise from the ashes” when they were at the brink, so obvious Phoenix symbolism
Superb analysis! In agreement, I believe Joshua was revived as Clive's attempt removed blood and the crystallized compartment from his brother's chest. Indications of Phoenix's healing powers are plethora throughout the game. It is he who wrote the book at the end.
Do you think you could do something on Clive and Jill's relationship and how they are themselves an example of Alchemical Perfection ie Sun King and Moon Queen? i really like Clive and Jill
ironically ff9 and ff16 are the only ones who feature the summons as legitimate plot elements (I haven't played or seen ff14, so I don't know about that, but I know there are a lot of summons as bosses, please don't tell me anything as I intend to play it at some point)
Are we forgetting their role in FF6 and (admittedly poor implementation) in FF8? And while not present throughout the game, a strong case can be made to their role in FF4.
FFX and FFVIII have summons as important plot elements. In FF15, I suppose Shiva and Ifrit aren't summons, but they were really important to that story.
Might be worth pointing out that there isn't a debate between free will and determinism, in, like, actual academic philosophy, where Compatibilism is the most commonly-held position. The idea of a "free will v. determinism" debate is a lot like that confused phrase "agnostic atheist", namely, you mostly encounter it as a result of philosophical institutions not doing a great job communicating the content of the field to laypeople.
Finally videos coming out that got it right. The ending gets under your skin and leaves you reeling. To me that’s the best type of ending because it stays with you long after you’ve stopped playing the game, whereas clear cut things leave little room to ponder and you move on. The game rewards you for diving into its subtext and paying attention. It’s such a clever way to basically have two or more different endings without actually having two different endings. I believe Clive is alive. The very last scene on Jill seeing the sunrise is no mistake. She had faith that meant Clive was returning, I don’t think that would suddenly change at the end. And when the screen goes black, we the player are put in the position of Jill, hope and faith that our heroes made it. Staying in line with the theme, hope in the face of adversity, just as Clive had faith that humanity would persevere no matter what obstacles may arise. Our main characters didn’t need proof of an outcome and by extension, neither did we. If we could choose to have a more clear cut ending, I would choose this one every time. Beautifully ambiguous indeed.
The "free will" argument becomes laughable when examined closely. Everything that people identify as choice, a result of "free will" or willpower, is clearly determined. I don't know what kind of magic some people imagine they have in their heads. As soon as you make any decision based on any kind of logical argument in your head, that already makes it determined. Acts that are considered altruistic or that do not prioritize the benefit of the actor serve the either the collective goals of our species, the individual's long term goals of shaping their environment to be what they consider optimal or "good"/"right", or simply deliver them self gratification over pursuing what they consider the correct path. Acts in great defiance of the odds are the result of implementing a high risk high reward strategy that could be born either out of desperation and lack of available options to proceed, or simply out of the monumental benefit gained from successfully executing the act. Even people who attempt to be random for any reason are likely to make their decision based on instinctive or subconscious considerations or drives they do not notice. Many other types of behaviours as well as combinations of these that are considered an expression of free will can be explained in similar simple fashion to the point that it blows my mind that people keep trying to make the argument. I realize that many people have either developed in an environments which have trained them to consider the concept of "free will" as positive and valuable without looking into it with a critical eye, and others simply misunderstand the general concept of determinism, but I would have expected that this is obvious enough. And to top it off, even if a person manages to somehow simulate a completely non deterministic equivalent to a coin toss or a dice roll in their head somehow, there is literally no reason to consider the resulting decision better than a deterministic one.
I think FFXVI is somewhat linked to the world of FFVII coz Ultima is like Jenova they are both aliens from other planets. I just saw a video Clive can get a Buster Sword, Cloud's weapon of FFVII
I do appreciate this video in general, but as a huge final fantasy fan and professional philosopher, I do have to say that your understanding of free will is a bit confused. Final Fantasy 9 doesn't touch on determinism at all, and ffxvi is about strength of will, not libertarian free will. The Christian theological symbols were so present in xvi, however, they're a fun reading!
This game is not a continuation of FF9. It is a rehashing of Xenogears. Ultima is Deus. The Mother Crystals are the Anima Relics, collected and brought to Ultima / Krelian. Humanity exists to serve Ultima / Deus to rebirth them. There are one or more pre-existing civilizations attached to the world. Christian symbolism. Jungian psychology. Gnosticism. Urobolus (Ouroboros) is the last boss of Xenogears. Ifrit Risen is Xenogears, and even looks like it in the game (Dion fight). The issue of Clive's destiny and determinism is the exact same as Fei and Elly, by using their free will to break the cycle. The demiurge is killed. My favourite comparison is the introduction or demo. The scene starts with Ifrit and Pheonix fighting, before showing a flame that is in Clive's eye. In Xenogears, (after a lengthy cutscene) a different kind of battle is fought between two unknown individuals. It also ends in a scene of fire, that transitions to Fei's painting. In both games, Clive and Fei's towns and normal simple lives are portrayed. Eventually, both protagonists are led away by their father figures. When they return, the town is under attack. Both Clive and Fei lose control of themselves unleashing maximum carnage to their homes, killing friends and family. I appreciate the Xenogears music playing in the background, haha.
I kind of disagree, VII had the symbolism of a 90s era "Just Stop Oil" tard group and an emo/damaged protagonist, talking symbolism, XII is biblical as all heck, you can't talk symbolism, mention VII (again, a joke) and not pay any mind to XII.
@@lucas2maziniyes you re right and i was wrong. The thing is, that in my country we associate this word normally with fantasy in stories, thats why interpreted wrong. But the word ultima is a word from my country and it means last or final.
This is why I'm beginning to truly like Japanese game design over western. Many modern western developers are afraid to implement complex concepts and symbolism into their games in fear of not reaching mass appeal, but Japanese devs understand that you can implement such things in your work and the people who have the knowledge will appreciate the concepts and symbolism, while others who might not catch them can still have a great experience regardless.
as of now, atheism & wokenism are the only "messaging" that plaguing most western games & it's definitely lack of nuances, completely in your face & rather cringe.
its funny this was exactly the same situation around 30-40 years ago , cultures have this tendency to stay in ignorant patterns/cycles over and over again
Excellent video, I'd like to see you do more on XVI as I think there's a plethora of other narrative aspects to dive into. I feel like the ending really plays into the themes of breaking away from fate, free will, choice and living/dying on your own terms. We aren't shown the outcomes of the characters, as now their fates are their own; but there's a huge tapestry of facts, subtext, symbolism and themes to pull from that allows for the player to infer and write their own ending, or fantasy, so to speak.
I enjoy your take on the Christian symbolism, my read was slightly different. I think the Joshua=Jesus parallel is bang on, but I think the vast majority of the game actually occurs in between the period of Resurrection and Ascension. A period of transition after which man takes responsibility for carrying out the word of God, ultimately washing away the sins of the past (in this case Ultima's magic/curse). The way I see it, Joshua is "resurrected" after the events of Phoenix gate. Clive's return to the Phoenix Gate being analogous to the Empty Tomb. Joshua is preparing his followers (the Undying) and ultimately Clive for his ascension. There are some parallels here between Mary of Magdala and Jote. I think there may also be some intended analogs between Clive and Paul. At Origin he passes his spirit into Clive as his final act, then ultimately ascends to the heavens with the message and spirit remaining on earth, effectively passing the baton to humanity. Clive then carries on his Word in the form of a book written in his name (The Word of God). As an aside, if the team decides to release a XVI-2, I could see them carrying this thread through. The next installment covering a period of "spreading the word" to the rest of the unexplored world (the Continent, the Southern Lands, etc.) and the inevitable conflict that would arise in doing so.
Wow, incredible the way such symbolism is subtly woven in. The world building and detail in this game is incredible. On the surface everything (besides the ending, I guess) is explained so explicitly and clearly, leaving no ambiguity, but then there's also all this implicit stuff going on under the surface. Also, for a game that, on the explicit surface, is so obsessed with killing God, there's a surprising amount of Christian undertones! lol
Despite the claims that FF16 is just a western game with a Japanese name slapped on it, I feel like it is very much suffused with Japanese themes. I recently heard a theory that the reason why so many japanese games, particularly jrpgs, involve fighting and killing gods is a reflection of a kind of underlying Japanese resentment against their leaders. Multiple times throughout the history of the island, their leaders promised to lead Japan into a golden era where it would be the most powerful country in the world. First with WW2 in its militaristic ambitions and then again with the economic bubble of the 80s. Both times Japan was met with miserable disappointment. The current people of Japan are living in a post-bubble era were they were never able to regain that glory in the 80s. Ever since the bubble burst, they have called the times the "Lost Decades." Combine that with a dangerously low birthrate and Japan is a society in decline. Who else is there to blame but the highest echelon of your society, who could be represented as gods? I feel like that (and certain other historical aspects like how Japan was stuck between the USSR and the USA) informed their media. And the common theme of free will might be a reflection of the fact that Japan is a very group-based society where there are certain stringent expectations placed on people starting at a very young age.
I think you're right on many points, only missing the fact that Japan's lord and emperor relationship never disappeared, it simply transformed and still exists in a different, more modern form. However, my issue is that the way that theme is done has become old and tired and overdone. It's been done to death in so many RPGs and none are exactly adding to it in any way. It's just been the same thing over and over again, and it was tired LONG before FFXVI came out.
@@ZerogunRivale When was the last time the Emperor wasn't a figurehead, though? They didn't really do anything throughout the whole Shogunate period. The military was in charge during Japan's colonialist period in the late 19th and early 20th century. After WW2, the Americans allowed him to remain, but they don't wield any real power over the modern government. I think most long-time fans of jrpgs have realized how much devs overuse the trope. It almost seems obligatory to have the final boss be some kind of evil god. I wonder if that's the case and devs feel like that's just how a jrpg is supposed to go.
@@fattiger6957 That's the thing about "cultural carryovers". Whether it be the shogun, the emperor, lords, etc., there is something about Japanese culture that has never escaped it and there is a subconscious level of fear in the society that's never gone away. I know people from Australia who have said that despite not being a penal colony for an extremely long time, the cultural effect of it has never vanished. The same could be said about the culture in West Germany vs. East Germany and it doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, unfortunately.
@@ZerogunRivale Cultures definitely have memories. The Chinese still have the memory of when their Empire was torn down by western powers. I do think there is a cultural fear in Japan of losing it's sovereignty, whether culturally or politically. I have noticed that reflected in their media, oddly enough particularly in two different Godzilla movies (Godzilla 1984 and Shin Godzilla)
The philosophy used in FFXVI, it's ending, and story are what many people misinterpret. The themes are what mecha anime like Evangelion and Gurren Lagann adapted, in addition to the Sephirot(Ultima's symbol). Jungism in video games and anime fascinates me to this day, but FFXVI is the deepest game that used Jung psychology to it's fullest. FFVII on the other hand handled Gnosticism sufficiently, and FFXVI shared similar elements and main struggle with FFIX: free will. The hopes of Ultima of resurrecting his fallen race and the citizens of Valistea handling the Mothercrystals, and Clive/Joshua as the epitomy of Mythos and Logos(the persona and it's shadow), or should we say 'the Savior'.
I really hope this game gets the game of the year. I lean more and more toward Asian created games because when if they decide to make a game, they make a game that makes you brainstorm and think about what the game - creators wanted to tell behind their creation. What is the 'Ultima' meaning behind it? What's its purpose? What is it saying? and other questions. Games that make you question the existence and the meaning behind certain actions and symbolism comparing them to real-life facts are what truly amazes me and attract me to be a part of it. Nowadays, for example, western games tend to avoid deep philosophical, thought-provoking questions because they FEAR that the audience will be misunderstood, misinterpret and as a result will lynch the game for its negative story telling. After all, the user was so dumb that he couldn't read the signs and or under the lines what the game's storytelling is about. FFXVI is the game of the decade which went back to _the old roots_ of asking the user through symbolism, and actions some questions that we must answer. God, I love this game! I think it's been 10 to 20 years since we last seen a game with a deeper meaning. In my opinion, _'True Games'_ - are the games that are worth playing not just for fun but for making me look through a different lens and ask questions to myself and find the answer through the game. FFXVI is one of them. 🙏 Thank you, Max Derrat for reviewing this! I hope to see more videos about FFXVI because I believe there is more to say about this game _'Hidden Messages'._
I'd love to see a deep dive into the Legend of Heroes: Trails... series starting from the beginning, though I know that's asking a lot. They have some moments of great depth, though maybe not the deepest games ever. Once you get to Trails in the Sky the 3rd, there's some good meat to consider there, though. Really in Sky SC as well.
Your videos are so informative, Max! I’m looking forward to playing 16 at some point, I also hope you make more videos about 16 too. I hope your hand heals soon too.
@@floppytokey I mostly agree with you. But I usually do side quests in Final Fantasy titles, and these slow things down to a degree I haven’t seen before. But there are also mainline story quests that slow things to a crawl as well. Grabbing all of the components to Mid’s ship comes to mind. This is all a matter of opinion of course. If you dig it, right on. But I found myself kinda bored for hours at a time. Even if I did leave the game feeling mostly positive.
I think a lot of people didn’t like that ending as they wanted a definitive ending. Something they didn’t have to get all philosophical just to interpret. Unfortunately for them the Final Fantasy series has always tried to reach the philosophical. Even the very first game the heroes had to beat Garland/Chaos in order to break a time loop. That alone opens a whole can of debate that I think most players never read into! I personally like this about the series as each entry poses a different question, and I think they did it pretty well in 16! Speaking of fate and all that, I personally would love to hear about one of my favourite stories: live A Live! Definitely a game that’s ending is something all classic RPG players need to see!
Interesting, from my perspective the ending was very definitive. Clive died, resurrecting Joshua in the process and changing the fundamentals of how the world functions. He removed magic from the equation. At least that's what I got from the ending. Then again, I'm terrible at noticing subtlety. My mind works with concrete, explicit information. That's why I watch channels like this one to help me appreciate games in a deeper manner
Generally, any time you have an ambiguous ending -say in a film...the Ending isn't the point. You're supposed to struggle to figure out whether one thing or another happened, and THEN realize that's unimportant. It's not what the film is actually about.
can't watch since I haven't gotten through the game yet, but it's nice to see positive coverage for FFXVI amidst all the unhinged hate against this game, and from an actually great content creator no less 👏
This video makes me feel like I suddenly aged a decade. I feel like 15 just came out a bit ago, and I literally didn't even know 16 existed prior to seeing this...
Perhaps this is the optimist in me talking, but I personally see no reason why neither could still be alive by the game's end. We have evidence for both being alive, neither of which trumps over the other at any point by how you make it sound. So why not believe both their wills brought them back? The Phoenix revives itself after all, I can't say anything on Ifrit as I know nothing on it admittedly. Regardless of that, I still see no reason to deny that both could've made it. Joshua living his own life after having previously expressed a fear of the unknown after defeating gods like Ultima. Writing a book as he went(kinda reminds me of an illuminator in a way as well, those who have seen Secret of Kells or know of the book's many legends should know what I mean). Clive in the meantime simply lived his life as he willed. Always looking ahead and doing what he could for as long as he was alive again. Enjoying it with the loved ones around him, whilst seemingly ushering in the new age to come. And perhaps leading to more ages to come after his true demise. I say true demise because well, memento mori as they say.
man the thematic writing in this game is wholly underrated
I got up to 3:15 and boy am I excited to watch the rest once I finally beat the game!
You both mentioned the Shadow part, and I got hella interested. Hoping for your new parts of your FFXVI videos
Another thing is Mythos and Logos is the same translation for "word" and the way that the ancient Greeks saw mythos and logos, was that they were not complete opposites but two different ways to convey the truth, another thing I haven't seen anyone talk about is the image of Ifrit risen looks like Neon Genesis when Unit 01 has the wings, and the symbol that Ultima has, looks like a Sephirot
Isn't it though?
@@ShellyYum isn't it though what?
Actually I'm Greek and that's inaccurate. Mythos means legend and logos means reason and speech
@@pg5650it also means word bro
To everyone who played FF in their childhood, who traveled to other worlds and loved their time there .. I just want to say that i see you, and im glad that we are comrades in this experience.
We are very fortunate to enjoy this series in a way that wont be possible soon enough.
Keep loving final fantasy ❤
I try but ever since XIII the series is on a serious decline for various reasons. XV was just bad but XVI is terrible in its own right.
@@TheOneGreatI hated 15 but after 16 I've gone back and realised the world of 15 feels significantly more alive, lived in and "real".
16's endless hallways, lack of civilisation, lack of quests outside of fetch, hunt and "talk to the local people" made it feel like the fakest videogame world ever.
Also the story literally forgets bearers exist halfway through... The main point of the fucking story itself is thrown out the window for a different focus out of nowhere
@@liamace1107XV had only 2 towns the whole game tho. How does it feel more alive? Especially since all the NPC are all copy pasted with side quests only for you collect dog tags, ingredients, and catching frogs? Sorry I have to disagree with that one lol. And the bearers were forgotten about if you done the side quests.
@@liamace1107ofc it is alive XVI world is dying. 🤡🤡
@@Rithysak101Dont listen to the xboners (like @liamace1107 ) that throw nonsnesical criticism at the game. They just hate for the sake of hating
The game lives and dies on free will and the relation of powerhungry/dependant humanity with magic and slaves. Beares are the focus point of the game.
Clive's voice opens the game, and his lines sounds very much like he's reading from a novel. The last line of the opening is, "And thus did our journey begin." The very last line of the game, also in Clive's voice, is, "Thus did our journey end." Like the last line of a novel. I believe Clive survives. We have lines from Jill shortly before the ending about the always dawn coming and Clive always coming for her. We have a line about not even the Phoenix being able to bring back the dead, mind, perhaps Ultima's spell could, given he's trying to cast raise. I don't think Clive casts Raise on Joshua though. I think that would take much more energy than he uses, and the energy seems to be fire-based, not Ultima's blue. I think he's just using Phoenix's power to make Joshua whole.
All this to say, I believe Clive lives, and that we "play" the novel.
My take is that Clive survives the Ultima battle, we see this in him being still alive on the coast, but has sacrificed all his Eikonic powers to remove the Blight and Aether from the world I think, and his arm was consumed by the Curse, which means that he didn't have much time left, but it was more than likely enough to write a novel.
Joshua surviving is pure speculation, we get zero evidence of that. Agree on the novel part.
@@JuliusCaesar103my take is that Clive lives but his son writes the book and they called him Joshua.
A tale of his parents fight for survival and love.
Clive HAS to live for it to be a complete book. Nyssa Defile was Clive and Clive only. Phoenix Gate's sole survivor was Clive aswell. The only person to live the entire thing was Clive.
I wish clive had chimed in with some narration at every point in the story when you enter a new area, like heavensward. would've been so good man, i loved the intro narration from him.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that felt like this. 16 is also in my top FF games along with 6 and 7 and type 0 and tactics mainly due to the story. Sub earned for sure
The end credits song when translated heavily implies that Clive survives
We all hope so 🥲
@@diegeticfridge9167 Yeah. If anyone deserved a happy ending, it was Clive. His entire adult life, almost 20 years, he hasn't known peace. I was desperate for him to live happily ever after with Jill.
Clive narrates the beginning and ending of the game, as if reading from a book
Clive also has a sidequest where he and tomes talks about Clive writing down his adventures once his mission is complete.
Clive’s mission was to honor the legacy and wishes of Cid, whose name he took to complete his wish.
So he took Josh’s name after honoring Cid’s legacy, and wrote to book to honor Joshua’s legacy.
And at the very end when the sun rises, Jill takes a deep sigh of relief and starts smiling, as if she’s seeing something that we don’t. Probably Clive.
And also, as for Joshua being alive, consider that Clive healed his body with powers of the phoenix, which already stated in game the phoenix “can heal the flesh but not the spirit”
And not only that, his body doesn’t move or breathe at all after being healed. And Ifrit and Phoenix needed to be merged in order to use Raise, the resurrection spell.
Something I only recently looked into and learned about was the the XVI tarot card, which is called “the tower”. Besides imagery and themes the tarot card has relating to FFXVI the Japanese cover of the game is really close to the card itself.
Clive stepping beyond the tower(crystals) and smoke where great kings rule onto Gods territory(the floor is the final battle ground) aiming to destroy it with the powers he has been given.
Love this game, hope you cover it even more! Great video.
Great video, the themes tackled in the game resonated heavily with me and I’m glad I found this video to better understand some of the symbolism I might’ve missed,
The ending being beautifuly ambigous is such a refreshing take. I simply believe joshua is resurrected by clive's newfound power as he followed his duty as first shield to the very end.
I also like how FFXVI tackle religions in medieval times, and many depiction of man's departure against old values in the name of religion for political gains (bearers and dominants exploitation) that is not necessarily easy and straightforward thing to do as they are very dependent on magic, stunting man's development.
i congratulate you for this beautiful video! im late to this and finished the game a while ago so ill say what i remember. since Joshua was on origin i speculated that he might died despite the heal clive did on his chest. after that he see clive looking at the night sky with clear petrification signs on his hands. afflicted faster than usual. with torgal's sad howl at the moon, jill's and gav's crying in realization of clive's passing. at least that how i preserved it. as a tragic tale with a good ending!
droppin this here because I'm glad you made a vid on this game and I'm sure it' gonna be a good one, gonna hold on to watch it until after I get a chance to play the game for myself first. FF games are just on a special tier in my heart that I think having things spoiled for me might taint the experience for me, so because of this I wanted to leave you a note of encouragement even if I gotta withdraw my view for now. Will be revisting later and look forward to it!
I will post this comment before I watch the video. Like you Max, my favorite Final Fantasy game was FF9, hey I even named my child after Adelbert. I finished FF16 last night and that was an incredible experience but you know what, FF16 story serve as the contrast of what FF9 takes on existentialism and determinism :)
i dont have the financial capability to play the latest FFs.... glad theres content like these.... keep it up man... ❤❤❤
Best video on FF16 I have seen, the game was way deeper than people give it credit for!
this is a beautiful analysis. thanks for helping me appreciate the game’s writing more
The use of the Xenogears OST in this was so perfect
Interesting and intriguing at the same time. After my 1st playthrough, the idea of fate and free will is came to my mind at another FF game but I could not remember clearly. However, you have reminded me it is similar as FFIX, and some other game. Knowing this made me more interest to finish the 2nd playthrough. Thanks for the video! 👍🏾
Wooow I dont have words. Yiru explanation is incredible
This is why Final Fantasy is the best video game series of all time.
Really liked the last part with everyone being able to contribute.
Awe ... Great video and excellent work, as always. Though I was hoping you'd have explored the symbolism of 'Magic' (in FFXVI's world context) more within this video.
Magic ... it would seem, presented everyone that had it quite a burden. Not only Bearer's and Dominant's, but even the Fallen and Ultima. The more and more it was used, the more everything that _it used_ became cursed. Consider that Ultima is the 'God of humanity', the Creator ... he/they are not _the_ God though. God did not create humans here. What she created were the planets within her universe, and they are always very much considered *alive* in FF works. Made of Aether. That very same Aether that seems to be the fuel of spells.
Historically ... Final Fantasy titles have often used magiteks to symbolism man's creation from and subjugation of _Nature_ . Their means to bend Reality to their will. But in XVI I believe Magic was used to represent this. Not only that ... but being that Aether = Magic and Aether = God's material to create ... in this story, Magic is very much the _will_ of the real God.
So, where am I going with this ... Idolatry. Both humans and Ultima's race used magic and destroyed (or nearly) both of their worlds doing so. They both used the 'Will of God' to achieve a paradise that only God could create. But God 'shalt have no other gods before me'. Ultima's race destroying the Fallen, and almost doing so to humanity (again?) at the end of XVI had Ultima won. Clive destroying and taking the godlike eikons, before ultimately destroying Ultima. For anyone else using God's Will ... the only result will be Death, and in the case of Bearer's, they were turned to stone. Or if you think about it another way... Idols. Of false gods.
Here's the punchline ... In order to break that chain, one must break free of that will of another. Magic ... had to be denounced and destroyed. That was the only way humanity or any being can break free of the true God's Will and create their own path. Ultima was not able to do so, constantly relying on magic and aether to do the things they thought to do. And as dark as slavery and subjugation of a person is, it had a silver lining. So to speak. Peoples' will evolved and developed over time to subconsciously realize that magic was not good to be doing. And what else resides within the subconscious, according to Jung? Dark emotions. That made manifest. And so... humanity suffered.
And _will_ continue to suffer. Always. There is no spell to cast to fix your everyday problems. You have to fight. You have to endure God's true will. Just to survive ... because your consciousness itself makes you a God when you create your own story, and put it into a book. Just as God had done ... the Bible.
EDIT: Ultima said at the end that the world was dead, a blackened husk. But when Clive destroyed, denounced, or rather _returned_ magic back to the source ... the planet was able to become 'whole' again. With God's Will restored as they intended ... the planet was able to recover and be that which God willed it to be. I'm not convinced the rebirth or resurrection is for either Clive or Joshua, but the planet herself.
EDIT 2: Something else occurred to me. Could it be that Clive's choices were never his own...? Could it not be that Ultima was the foil of the one true God, and that is who went to battle? Ultima was destroying worlds, bending and breaking God's design or rather Will to do so. Clive is, after all, a vessel. That was his purpose. His design. Who is to say _what_ took hold of that ... Humanity's Will? Maybe the planet itself? Or maybe the one true God? To stop what Ultima was doing. Ultima was doing what they thought they had to do to break free of God's Will too, when you look at this way.
More symbolism ... Clive's hand. The one he used to fling magic. The one he held up at the beginning and held a fireball, and at the end when that fireball faded away for his hand to become stone. The Hand of God..... And the cover art. Ifrit vs Phoenix. Is it really just to represent the first big fight of the story? Or the joining of the two at the end? Or might meant to mean Ifrit = Ultima, the destroyer of worlds and of God's Will ... With Phoenix = true God, to stop the collective of consciousness into one being and rebirth a world where individual consciousness is born from the ashes. The child that was born at the end to Edda ... is from Ash...
Magic is still real though. In our Reality. Our Universe. You all may know it by another word ... *Manipulation* . Words can be woven into another's brain just right to produce a result you desire. People resent and hate this. They hate the _bearers_ of such a gift!
Magic in FF16 is very much like mako in FF7. Makes life easier, but it is killing the world. If you want to see it as something different, it is possible. But the environmental messaging is pretty clear. I think it is punctuated by the scene after the credits with the boys and their mother living in a more simple world without magic.
To stoke the flames of your theory, there's mentions of Religious sects in the mainland of the game that worships the earth itself, the planet. Gaia.
@@thatoneLerrydude Is this mentioned in the 'active lore' or with Tomes, or elsewhere? One thing I plan to do is talk to more NPCs during my new+ play through. The NPCs that don't have quests or anything to do with anything other than additional dialogue. There is likely good nuggets of lore info from a couple of them that otherwise would be missed entirely.
Crazy thought I just had. Now that the immediate relatives of the Phoenix-bearing bloodline are all dead, and an apparently magical child, from Ash, was just born right after Joshua's death... HMMMM it seems too convenient to be false. Edda's child is perhaps the new Dominant of the Phoenix. This fact would be in favor of determinism, as the child was already slated to be born before we knew Josh would die, therefore Josh's death was already written in fate...
I was waiting for the Carl Joung mentioned at 6:50
Coming back to this video after some days, i just realized how much i love the discurse of ff16 about god and free will.
I think its a concept that many people didn't get at the end of the game.
The "it's Carl Jung" part was just *chef's kiss* 😂 I love it
Great video!!
Thank you. Thank you for explaining this all better and more eloquently than my brain did.
This was an amazing analysis, i’m glad that a lot if the things i noticed you did as well, which meand i was not overthinking it lmao. Great video!!! ❤
What a beautiful breakdown. I adored the themes and characterisation of the game and its nice to see such an eloquent interpretation of it.
Perfect way to start my day at the office 🤫
This video is so fucking amazing. Thank you for this.
Great video have liked your other ones so was glad to see you tackled 16. Just beat it two days ago so catching up on 16 content because even if you watch spoiler free videos the RUclips algorithm will start recommending other similar videos and jerks put huge spoilers in the thumbnail and titles. Fantastic game Creative Business Unit 3 has been on a roll.
All hail new video 🎉🎉🎉
In some summaries of Final Fantasy XVI's ending on the internet, some suggest that a boat can be seen on the horizon during the sunrise that Jill looks towards right before the screen turns black, implying that Clive is alive and returning to the Hideaway, and that Jill's tears are subsiding because she sees him.
My initial interpretation, because I didn't see any boat, was that the curse over the sky had ended, and that the sunrise was simply the result of Clive's sacrifice, and Jill was coming to terms with that.
But now that I've seen this video, and have come to accept that the ending is intentionally ambiguous in order to challenge the player to practice the ideals espoused by the game, that of human will overcoming fate...
...honestly? Now that I look back, I think I 'did' see a boat on the horizon. Yeah, in fact, I'm sure of it, now...
Gotta finish the game first before I get to enjoy this video, sir o7
Your videos are always so good!
Ultima and Origin are nods to Origin Systems and their CRPG series called...wait for it...Ultima. Widely considered the first CRPG ever written.
I’m simple. When the first words of a video are “my favorite Final Fantasy is Final Fantasy 9” I pause the video, click like, resume.
Surprised there was no mention of the tree of sephiroth analog from the fallen/ultima
Max I think you should play a game called “Fear and Hunger” I would love to see if you can find a unique take on the games lore/story.
Wonderful, thanks for such a beautiful insight 🥹
amazing video, never got the christian symbolism but it makes a lot of sense!
Clues towards Clive and Joshua’s survival:
Clive:
1. Harpocrates encourages Clive to write (specifically about his journey) when he puts down his sword
2. In the final Gav SQ Clive states his desire to write
3. When arriving with Jill to Boklad, Jill and Clive converse about how much Clive read and enjoyed stories of Gods vs Men in his youth
4. It’s possible all Clive did was close Joshua’s wounds, so as to not leave him in a bad state in death, it’s stated in lore entries that the Phoenix is not capable of resurrection. It’s possible that with Ultima’s power it could be done, but we see Clive make use of Ultima’s power immediately after the Joshua flashback and his hand sparks with a Blue and Black flame, we see no indication of this when healing Joshua
5. The book at the end bears the Hideaway’s symbol, I don’t see why Joshua would do this unless asked to, due to only joining very recently prior to the ending
6. At the official FF16 cafe there is physical copy of the book in a glass display, next to it is a quill (presumably the one given to Clive by Harpocrates)
7. He’s the narrator
8. The Platinum trophy is called “The Chronicler” accompanied by an icon of the book, funnily enough Clive begins the game’s opening narration with a quote from Moss the Chronicler
Joshua:
1. The book’s stated author
2. Joshua had already been writing a journal throughout the game with his findings on Ultima (and possibly the events of the game)
3. Harpocrates encourages him to write as well, and even compares him to Moss the Chronicler, a famous historian and Harpocrates’ mentor
4. Metia fades, the obvious implication is Clive’s death
5. Jill and Torgal feel Clive’s aether fade, it’s stated by Clive and Joshua that dominants can feel each other when Jill is kidnapped (this could also be because ALL aether in general is fading)
6. When Clive returns to the Nexus with Ultima’s power, his chest suddenly appears bloody (prior to hugging Joshua for the last time) so it’s possible he had a gaping chest wound similar to Joshua’s. This could mean that even if Clive survived the spell, and the bearer curse disappeared before it could take him, he could have died simply due to the massive wound
7. We don’t see his body post being healed, we don’t know where he ended up, as opposed to Clive who has a “final” scene
8. When Clive pep talks him at Phoenix Gate, he talks about how the point of his duty is the guard the Phoenix so that it could one day “rise from the ashes” when they were at the brink, so obvious Phoenix symbolism
can you give us your take of the wyvern tail flower and what is symbolizes?
My thoughts is that they both survived at the end of the game and think that the host of bahaumut might of lived
Beautiful video, love this game!!
I firgued this game was up your alley, Matt!
Superb analysis! In agreement, I believe Joshua was revived as Clive's attempt removed blood and the crystallized compartment from his brother's chest. Indications of Phoenix's healing powers are plethora throughout the game. It is he who wrote the book at the end.
NINE IS YOUR FAVORITE???
hot take! 🔥
Masterful
great video!
Subscribed
Do you think you could do something on Clive and Jill's relationship and how they are themselves an example of Alchemical Perfection ie Sun King and Moon Queen?
i really like Clive and Jill
SAY THE LINE, MAX
I want this video to succeeeeedd
ironically ff9 and ff16 are the only ones who feature the summons as legitimate plot elements (I haven't played or seen ff14, so I don't know about that, but I know there are a lot of summons as bosses, please don't tell me anything as I intend to play it at some point)
All I'll say is the summons in XIV are pivotal to the game's plot. That shouldn't spoil anything.
Are we forgetting their role in FF6 and (admittedly poor implementation) in FF8? And while not present throughout the game, a strong case can be made to their role in FF4.
You forgot FFX, in which the Aeons and Summoners play a significant role.
@@nerostark4320 Oh, wow, how did I forget that one?
FFX and FFVIII have summons as important plot elements. In FF15, I suppose Shiva and Ifrit aren't summons, but they were really important to that story.
Can't wait to analyze Xenoblade 1-3 due it about free will VS destiny.
Paranoia is in the shadow?
Incredible
What's your interpretation of the ending?
Might be worth pointing out that there isn't a debate between free will and determinism, in, like, actual academic philosophy, where Compatibilism is the most commonly-held position. The idea of a "free will v. determinism" debate is a lot like that confused phrase "agnostic atheist", namely, you mostly encounter it as a result of philosophical institutions not doing a great job communicating the content of the field to laypeople.
Finally videos coming out that got it right. The ending gets under your skin and leaves you reeling. To me that’s the best type of ending because it stays with you long after you’ve stopped playing the game, whereas clear cut things leave little room to ponder and you move on. The game rewards you for diving into its subtext and paying attention. It’s such a clever way to basically have two or more different endings without actually having two different endings. I believe Clive is alive. The very last scene on Jill seeing the sunrise is no mistake. She had faith that meant Clive was returning, I don’t think that would suddenly change at the end. And when the screen goes black, we the player are put in the position of Jill, hope and faith that our heroes made it. Staying in line with the theme, hope in the face of adversity, just as Clive had faith that humanity would persevere no matter what obstacles may arise. Our main characters didn’t need proof of an outcome and by extension, neither did we. If we could choose to have a more clear cut ending, I would choose this one every time. Beautifully ambiguous indeed.
The "free will" argument becomes laughable when examined closely. Everything that people identify as choice, a result of "free will" or willpower, is clearly determined. I don't know what kind of magic some people imagine they have in their heads. As soon as you make any decision based on any kind of logical argument in your head, that already makes it determined.
Acts that are considered altruistic or that do not prioritize the benefit of the actor serve the either the collective goals of our species, the individual's long term goals of shaping their environment to be what they consider optimal or "good"/"right", or simply deliver them self gratification over pursuing what they consider the correct path.
Acts in great defiance of the odds are the result of implementing a high risk high reward strategy that could be born either out of desperation and lack of available options to proceed, or simply out of the monumental benefit gained from successfully executing the act.
Even people who attempt to be random for any reason are likely to make their decision based on instinctive or subconscious considerations or drives they do not notice.
Many other types of behaviours as well as combinations of these that are considered an expression of free will can be explained in similar simple fashion to the point that it blows my mind that people keep trying to make the argument. I realize that many people have either developed in an environments which have trained them to consider the concept of "free will" as positive and valuable without looking into it with a critical eye, and others simply misunderstand the general concept of determinism, but I would have expected that this is obvious enough.
And to top it off, even if a person manages to somehow simulate a completely non deterministic equivalent to a coin toss or a dice roll in their head somehow, there is literally no reason to consider the resulting decision better than a deterministic one.
I think FFXVI is somewhat linked to the world of FFVII coz Ultima is like Jenova they are both aliens from other planets. I just saw a video Clive can get a Buster Sword, Cloud's weapon of FFVII
1:30 "I owe it to myself to rise above existential dread..." is a moot point if they're implying that there is no free will
So you're saying if our will is strong enough, Yoshi P would give in and give us a more definitive feel good ending.
Vagrant story
GOD I would love to see a video on Tactics, maybe on how it portrays deontology and utilitarianism. Great video as always, Matt, huge fan
He became a curse just as Yeshua did on the cross....just wow
I do appreciate this video in general, but as a huge final fantasy fan and professional philosopher, I do have to say that your understanding of free will is a bit confused. Final Fantasy 9 doesn't touch on determinism at all, and ffxvi is about strength of will, not libertarian free will. The Christian theological symbols were so present in xvi, however, they're a fun reading!
On the jung subject… xenogears did it first :)
This game is not a continuation of FF9. It is a rehashing of Xenogears.
Ultima is Deus. The Mother Crystals are the Anima Relics, collected and brought to Ultima / Krelian. Humanity exists to serve Ultima / Deus to rebirth them. There are one or more pre-existing civilizations attached to the world. Christian symbolism. Jungian psychology. Gnosticism. Urobolus (Ouroboros) is the last boss of Xenogears. Ifrit Risen is Xenogears, and even looks like it in the game (Dion fight). The issue of Clive's destiny and determinism is the exact same as Fei and Elly, by using their free will to break the cycle. The demiurge is killed.
My favourite comparison is the introduction or demo. The scene starts with Ifrit and Pheonix fighting, before showing a flame that is in Clive's eye. In Xenogears, (after a lengthy cutscene) a different kind of battle is fought between two unknown individuals. It also ends in a scene of fire, that transitions to Fei's painting. In both games, Clive and Fei's towns and normal simple lives are portrayed. Eventually, both protagonists are led away by their father figures. When they return, the town is under attack. Both Clive and Fei lose control of themselves unleashing maximum carnage to their homes, killing friends and family.
I appreciate the Xenogears music playing in the background, haha.
Ff16 is amazing i dont care what nobody says
I kind of disagree, VII had the symbolism of a 90s era "Just Stop Oil" tard group and an emo/damaged protagonist, talking symbolism, XII is biblical as all heck, you can't talk symbolism, mention VII (again, a joke) and not pay any mind to XII.
Dude you need to play FFXIV. The story is one of the best in all forms of storytelling.
Ff16 is pretty great, just started NG+🤌🤌🤌
*i see elements of Dune's Kwisatz Haderach idea in Clive, Paul from Dune has a similar role in a way
Make a part II on XVI. There’s so much esoteric topics woven in this game.
i hope for a part II, i'm still suffering from the emotional damage because of the game ending 😭😭😭
@@AB-cr1cusame man, same.
@@AB-cr1cu emotional damage.
I'm happy with how it ended. It's more powerful in ambiguity.
Also there's another thing that Max forgot to mention:
Ultima means Last or Final;
Mythos can mean also Fantasy;
Final Fantasy
You're wrong, mythos doesnt mean fantasy lol
@@lucas2maziniyes you re right and i was wrong. The thing is, that in my country we associate this word normally with fantasy in stories, thats why interpreted wrong. But the word ultima is a word from my country and it means last or final.
Ultima means Final/Last in portuguese
@@lucas2mazini a myth is associated with fantasy. no need to include that immature "lol" at the end, like a 14 yrs old bellend.
@@lucas2mazini I'll give him the like anyway
This is why I'm beginning to truly like Japanese game design over western. Many modern western developers are afraid to implement complex concepts and symbolism into their games in fear of not reaching mass appeal, but Japanese devs understand that you can implement such things in your work and the people who have the knowledge will appreciate the concepts and symbolism, while others who might not catch them can still have a great experience regardless.
Totally agree, for me the only exception (sort of) is the God of War franchise
as of now, atheism & wokenism are the only "messaging" that plaguing most western games & it's definitely lack of nuances, completely in your face & rather cringe.
@@crozraven It's so bad, I agree.
its funny this was exactly the same situation around 30-40 years ago , cultures have this tendency to stay in ignorant patterns/cycles over and over again
@@crozraven what the fuck does wokenism mean? And what’s wrong with atheism?
Excellent video, I'd like to see you do more on XVI as I think there's a plethora of other narrative aspects to dive into. I feel like the ending really plays into the themes of breaking away from fate, free will, choice and living/dying on your own terms. We aren't shown the outcomes of the characters, as now their fates are their own; but there's a huge tapestry of facts, subtext, symbolism and themes to pull from that allows for the player to infer and write their own ending, or fantasy, so to speak.
I enjoy your take on the Christian symbolism, my read was slightly different. I think the Joshua=Jesus parallel is bang on, but I think the vast majority of the game actually occurs in between the period of Resurrection and Ascension. A period of transition after which man takes responsibility for carrying out the word of God, ultimately washing away the sins of the past (in this case Ultima's magic/curse).
The way I see it, Joshua is "resurrected" after the events of Phoenix gate. Clive's return to the Phoenix Gate being analogous to the Empty Tomb. Joshua is preparing his followers (the Undying) and ultimately Clive for his ascension. There are some parallels here between Mary of Magdala and Jote. I think there may also be some intended analogs between Clive and Paul. At Origin he passes his spirit into Clive as his final act, then ultimately ascends to the heavens with the message and spirit remaining on earth, effectively passing the baton to humanity. Clive then carries on his Word in the form of a book written in his name (The Word of God).
As an aside, if the team decides to release a XVI-2, I could see them carrying this thread through. The next installment covering a period of "spreading the word" to the rest of the unexplored world (the Continent, the Southern Lands, etc.) and the inevitable conflict that would arise in doing so.
Damn, that's really well thought out. Love it.
Wow, incredible the way such symbolism is subtly woven in. The world building and detail in this game is incredible. On the surface everything (besides the ending, I guess) is explained so explicitly and clearly, leaving no ambiguity, but then there's also all this implicit stuff going on under the surface.
Also, for a game that, on the explicit surface, is so obsessed with killing God, there's a surprising amount of Christian undertones! lol
Despite the claims that FF16 is just a western game with a Japanese name slapped on it, I feel like it is very much suffused with Japanese themes.
I recently heard a theory that the reason why so many japanese games, particularly jrpgs, involve fighting and killing gods is a reflection of a kind of underlying Japanese resentment against their leaders. Multiple times throughout the history of the island, their leaders promised to lead Japan into a golden era where it would be the most powerful country in the world. First with WW2 in its militaristic ambitions and then again with the economic bubble of the 80s. Both times Japan was met with miserable disappointment.
The current people of Japan are living in a post-bubble era were they were never able to regain that glory in the 80s. Ever since the bubble burst, they have called the times the "Lost Decades." Combine that with a dangerously low birthrate and Japan is a society in decline. Who else is there to blame but the highest echelon of your society, who could be represented as gods?
I feel like that (and certain other historical aspects like how Japan was stuck between the USSR and the USA) informed their media. And the common theme of free will might be a reflection of the fact that Japan is a very group-based society where there are certain stringent expectations placed on people starting at a very young age.
I think you're right on many points, only missing the fact that Japan's lord and emperor relationship never disappeared, it simply transformed and still exists in a different, more modern form. However, my issue is that the way that theme is done has become old and tired and overdone. It's been done to death in so many RPGs and none are exactly adding to it in any way. It's just been the same thing over and over again, and it was tired LONG before FFXVI came out.
@@ZerogunRivale When was the last time the Emperor wasn't a figurehead, though? They didn't really do anything throughout the whole Shogunate period. The military was in charge during Japan's colonialist period in the late 19th and early 20th century. After WW2, the Americans allowed him to remain, but they don't wield any real power over the modern government.
I think most long-time fans of jrpgs have realized how much devs overuse the trope. It almost seems obligatory to have the final boss be some kind of evil god. I wonder if that's the case and devs feel like that's just how a jrpg is supposed to go.
@@fattiger6957 That's the thing about "cultural carryovers". Whether it be the shogun, the emperor, lords, etc., there is something about Japanese culture that has never escaped it and there is a subconscious level of fear in the society that's never gone away. I know people from Australia who have said that despite not being a penal colony for an extremely long time, the cultural effect of it has never vanished. The same could be said about the culture in West Germany vs. East Germany and it doesn't seem to be going away any time soon, unfortunately.
@@ZerogunRivale Cultures definitely have memories. The Chinese still have the memory of when their Empire was torn down by western powers.
I do think there is a cultural fear in Japan of losing it's sovereignty, whether culturally or politically. I have noticed that reflected in their media, oddly enough particularly in two different Godzilla movies (Godzilla 1984 and Shin Godzilla)
The philosophy used in FFXVI, it's ending, and story are what many people misinterpret. The themes are what mecha anime like Evangelion and Gurren Lagann adapted, in addition to the Sephirot(Ultima's symbol). Jungism in video games and anime fascinates me to this day, but FFXVI is the deepest game that used Jung psychology to it's fullest. FFVII on the other hand handled Gnosticism sufficiently, and FFXVI shared similar elements and main struggle with FFIX: free will. The hopes of Ultima of resurrecting his fallen race and the citizens of Valistea handling the Mothercrystals, and Clive/Joshua as the epitomy of Mythos and Logos(the persona and it's shadow), or should we say 'the Savior'.
Hello, Xenogears is here.
"FFXVI is the deepest game that used Jung psychology to it's fullest" cough...cough.... Xenogears/the entire xeno franchise
@@metroidcypher Agreed.
@@metroidcypher I thinks he meant 'the deepest game that used Jung psychology to it's fullest'' of all the final fantasy, not of all video games.
I really hope this game gets the game of the year. I lean more and more toward Asian created games because when if they decide to make a game, they make a game that makes you brainstorm and think about what the game - creators wanted to tell behind their creation. What is the 'Ultima' meaning behind it? What's its purpose? What is it saying? and other questions.
Games that make you question the existence and the meaning behind certain actions and symbolism comparing them to real-life facts are what truly amazes me and attract me to be a part of it.
Nowadays, for example, western games tend to avoid deep philosophical, thought-provoking questions because they FEAR that the audience will be misunderstood, misinterpret and as a result will lynch the game for its negative story telling. After all, the user was so dumb that he couldn't read the signs and or under the lines what the game's storytelling is about.
FFXVI is the game of the decade which went back to _the old roots_ of asking the user through symbolism, and actions some questions that we must answer. God, I love this game! I think it's been 10 to 20 years since we last seen a game with a deeper meaning. In my opinion, _'True Games'_ - are the games that are worth playing not just for fun but for making me look through a different lens and ask questions to myself and find the answer through the game. FFXVI is one of them. 🙏
Thank you, Max Derrat for reviewing this!
I hope to see more videos about FFXVI because I believe there is more to say about this game _'Hidden Messages'._
I'd love to see a deep dive into the Legend of Heroes: Trails... series starting from the beginning, though I know that's asking a lot. They have some moments of great depth, though maybe not the deepest games ever. Once you get to Trails in the Sky the 3rd, there's some good meat to consider there, though. Really in Sky SC as well.
I second this I just started cold steel 2 and Im loving it so far
Yeah, I'm still playing through the series. I love the idea and world building.
This games just keeps getting better
Truly a masterpiece
Yes I was hoping someone would touch on the symbolism in this game! Thank you so much!
The fucking Simpsons bit killed me. Self awareness is important king. Great work as always
Your videos are so informative, Max! I’m looking forward to playing 16 at some point, I also hope you make more videos about 16 too.
I hope your hand heals soon too.
Folks are so busy hating on it, they cant appreciate the deeper messaging. They basically just want GOW R:3 with Firaga and RPG mechanics.
Supposed "deeper messaging" doesnt absolve the absolute metric ton of writing issues this game has.
@@ZerogunRivaleor issues with pacing that detract from the better moments for hours at a time.
@@ZerogunRivalelike what
@@digitalhauntologyhonestly it's just the sidequests that detract from the mainquest.
@@floppytokey I mostly agree with you. But I usually do side quests in Final Fantasy titles, and these slow things down to a degree I haven’t seen before.
But there are also mainline story quests that slow things to a crawl as well. Grabbing all of the components to Mid’s ship comes to mind.
This is all a matter of opinion of course. If you dig it, right on. But I found myself kinda bored for hours at a time. Even if I did leave the game feeling mostly positive.
I think a lot of people didn’t like that ending as they wanted a definitive ending. Something they didn’t have to get all philosophical just to interpret. Unfortunately for them the Final Fantasy series has always tried to reach the philosophical. Even the very first game the heroes had to beat Garland/Chaos in order to break a time loop. That alone opens a whole can of debate that I think most players never read into! I personally like this about the series as each entry poses a different question, and I think they did it pretty well in 16!
Speaking of fate and all that, I personally would love to hear about one of my favourite stories: live A Live! Definitely a game that’s ending is something all classic RPG players need to see!
Interesting, from my perspective the ending was very definitive.
Clive died, resurrecting Joshua in the process and changing the fundamentals of how the world functions. He removed magic from the equation.
At least that's what I got from the ending. Then again, I'm terrible at noticing subtlety. My mind works with concrete, explicit information. That's why I watch channels like this one to help me appreciate games in a deeper manner
Generally, any time you have an ambiguous ending -say in a film...the Ending isn't the point. You're supposed to struggle to figure out whether one thing or another happened, and THEN realize that's unimportant. It's not what the film is actually about.
can't watch since I haven't gotten through the game yet, but it's nice to see positive coverage for FFXVI amidst all the unhinged hate against this game, and from an actually great content creator no less 👏
Valid criticism isn't unhinged rage, tho.
@@TheOneGreat what even is the relevance of this reply lmao
This video makes me feel like I suddenly aged a decade. I feel like 15 just came out a bit ago, and I literally didn't even know 16 existed prior to seeing this...
I'd like to believe Clive survived.
I'm in a bad enough place at the moment to think he died though, lol.
Someone recommended u on ff16 sub reddit as i was posting myninsights on the game as a philosophy and psychology nerd. Man, i am not disappointed.
Late comment but do you have a link?
Perhaps this is the optimist in me talking, but I personally see no reason why neither could still be alive by the game's end. We have evidence for both being alive, neither of which trumps over the other at any point by how you make it sound. So why not believe both their wills brought them back? The Phoenix revives itself after all, I can't say anything on Ifrit as I know nothing on it admittedly. Regardless of that, I still see no reason to deny that both could've made it.
Joshua living his own life after having previously expressed a fear of the unknown after defeating gods like Ultima. Writing a book as he went(kinda reminds me of an illuminator in a way as well, those who have seen Secret of Kells or know of the book's many legends should know what I mean).
Clive in the meantime simply lived his life as he willed. Always looking ahead and doing what he could for as long as he was alive again. Enjoying it with the loved ones around him, whilst seemingly ushering in the new age to come. And perhaps leading to more ages to come after his true demise. I say true demise because well, memento mori as they say.
I thought FF16 was as straight foorward a story as it gets without much depth, but I'm glad I was proven wrong.
Spectacular and great analysis of the new game!
This video demonstrates why some people thought XVI's narrative was weak. They clearly missed (or didn't understand) the symbolism.