Just when you thought the trebuchet was bad enough, Tod makes a post-apocalyptic anti-aircraft spear thrower. If you weren't on a watch list already...
Ive been working on a 4 armed ballista based off of how Genghis Khans triple siege crossbows design, taking mainly the style he used for linking the sets of limbs together. Its a smallish scale model though around 5 foot long since the price of lumber is ridiculous right now.
Ship it to Ukraine. Add some trigger point silver nitrate and a load of RDX, should do nicely against unarmoured targets, For armoured targets... Well, there is the Ukranian tractor. ;)
Very cool tests! The result was predictable of course. This super wide tip would require a huge amount of energy to cut through any halfway tough matter. Humans can't throw hard enough to generate that much kinetic energy. But it would be interesting to see what happens if you put a very thin hardened steel tip on the dart. I think it would go through the chain mail, but certainly not through the plated armor. I once made a monster version of your launcher, using a huge amount of rubber, and the dart was able to go all the way through a car door... so Achilles would have ruled the battlefield with those darts for sure!
Thanks for popping by Joerg. You are right, but if there is one thing I have found out about history, is people have assumed too much and so I like to go and try things and find out if they fit with what is written in the books and usually they do, sometimes they don't. In the case of the Irish throwing darts at the English, of course nobody much cared about looking from the Irish point of view and so many details of 'can they?' and such things are lost
Well, I guess you could throw this with a simple rope as a spear thrower, those where called "Swiss arrows". That would increase range and power a whole lot, and maybe be enough to penetrate some simple armour like a gambeson. I always wondered if this is the way they where originally intended for.
I have always had a strong throwing arm. I got hold of a piece of rebar steel, that was heavy (like the Roman pilum). When i threw it, at +- 10 m, it went straight through a wooden door and to my amazement stuck into the brick wall behind it. All that weight concentrated in that one small point is absolutely devastating. There is no doubt in my mind that strong throwers can easily pierce armor with this or render a shield useless.
Tod: Let's downgrade our spear thrower so that it accurately represents a grizzled medieval solder on the battlefield. Joerg Sprave: Let's not only upgrade our spear thrower to the point that only a giant german powerhouse can set it, but let's also make it a repeater that can fire 25 spears in 2 seconds. I started typing this comment while watching the vid and halfway through typing Tod gave Joerg a shout out. Not really surprising.
I just absolutely Love that you go for the scientific, ‚correct‘ way of measuring things but then also do those ‚champion of the tribe‘ Test. It‘s just so fun AND informative! Lovely.
You're back! After 3 weeks and no updates I was worried that the Trebuchet had got the better of you. Glad to see you're still finding new ways of throwing painful things a long way :D
@@tods_workshop Let me guess, you got the gang together, Joe the archer, Will the fletcher, Kevin the armorer, Toby the knight and now Bill the javelineer and took over Dover Castle?
After Tod said his test ballista thing was very post-apocalyptic, I pictured a pair of them up on some ramparts made of rusty junk that are flanking the gate into some sort of post-apocalyptic survivor/trader junk town.
Tod, that was brilliant, your approach to the scientific method is getting noticeably better over time. I think not because you are studying the Scientific Method and trying to apply it to your videos, but because you are interested in finding genuine results, and over time you are finding ways of getting them because of your passion for real history. My favourite RUclips channel by a country mile.
@@tods_workshop Tod, I know you do a specific range of bladed weapons, mostly European middle ages stuff, but how would you feel about doing a proper Seax, something between an everyday tool and a weapon. I have seen some nice ones online, but I am always concerned about the seemingly non ergonomic handle.
The most powerful Olympic javelin throws involve a runup rather than a standing throw. That'd be a difficult technique to employ in a martial context, but skirmishers may have used it. Accuracy would presumably be poor, but hurling javelins/spears into an opposing formation could work. Similarly, the test of spear throwing ability of experienced throwers on Melville Island recounted in Sir Baldwin Spencer's 1914 *Native Tribes of the Northern Territory of Australia* involved a 20ft runup. The nine men who competed managed 104-143ft (31.7-43.6m) with a 10.5ft, 4lb spear. In a vacuum, even the shortest throw would probably require around 300 J of kinetic energy. The exact release angle & aerodynamics might mean it was more or less, but still considerable power.
Yep. I'd like to see some more 'stone age' tech tested. If we ditch the fletching and that huge broadhead for a more appropriate stone tip. What distance could Bill get with a 3m long spear? What about a 3 - 4m spear and a ~1m woomera?
Update: Jehan Creton's account of being in Ireland with Richard II in 1399, apparently written only a few years later, describes Irish darts as piercing both sides of mail coats. A picture in the manuscript shows riders with these long darts, which have modest spear-type heads & no visible fletching. It's at least theoretically possible a longer dart with a thinner point could do better against armor.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 they do look like they were designed by someone who doesnt use weapons, they look intimidating and like they could do some damage, but if thats all they do in todds demo, like whats the point in wasting that much metal, how many more functional arrow heads could you make?... would really like to see a large group of these launched from an adapted catapult, like what distance would they go?
I think you're probably underestimating the combat effectiveness of a running throw. With practice I bet you could get as accurate as standing still. I agree it was probably more useful in the context of formations, mostly because of the timing, particularly latency between acquiring your target and launching.
Interesting thing about Bill being able to throw the heavier javelins further than the lighter darts: Human beings are great at producing torque with our limbs, and our ability to impart energy to an object is typically more limited by the maximum speed we can generate with our arm than our ability to accelerate the mass up to that speed. A heavier object, brought up to the same speed as a lighter one, will contain more momentum and, therefore, will resist drag better resulting in maintaining more of its launch velocity.
Exactly. Tod actually discovered this same thing a while ago when experimenting with different arrows in heavy crossbows--the inertia of the limbs themselves puts a hard limit on maximum projectile "muzzle" velocity, so maximum range was not achieved with the lightest bolts.
true but practice and and skill comes into play. Basically something light is thrown different then heavy they are just likely swore and hit horse maybe even an under hand throw. Where I do agree is that arrow head is not meant to pierce armor it not the right shape to do that.
It has more to do with biomechanics: if you pretension your muscles than you can exert more force. With the heavier dart, due to its inertia, Bill can pretension his muscles more. Of course there is a maximum amount of pretension, after it the exerted force wont increase.
@@balazsgezakadar7927 yeah, part of it comes down to muscle fiber recruitment. Our muscles only fire as many muscle fibers as are needed to accelerate the thing we're moving. Pushing against something heavier gives our muscles more of a challenge so they activate more muscle fibers.
Tod is always saying "they were smart, if it worked they likely would've done it" such as waxing the arrow tips. And just like his guest star (and Tod himself) said these darts were uncomfortable to throw and clearly ineffective; why not assume these were heavier? If it's clearly possible to throw heavier objects further why are acting like these were something that were used?
I assume he's using some sort of hardware dowel, might be similar to pine. So if he gets some kind of fancier, heavier wood turned down to 1" and give that a go. Oak and Yew are relatively heavy and sort of endemic to the areas which these things would have been made in.
@@Jixxor They were also likely to often times be using freshly cut wood which would have been wet and that adds a surprising amount of weight. To would have been using a dry piece of wood that he bought.
Your replicators are awesome! Would it be possible to see a test of these from an elevated position? I think that, thrown in mass, may be more effective than when thrown from the ground. LOVE YOUR STUFF!!!
@@FlavioLanfranconi yes, I think so, but you just know now that Tod has said something Joerg is gonna create something even more diabolical and awesome. At least I hope he does!
I mean, as your theory is, that these arrows were used predominantly against horses, ballistic gel with a soft leather cover seems to be the logical next step in discovery, to see what it would have actually done, when hitting a horse. Then with an additional layer of thick textile, to simulate the most commonly used horse armor.
I have to wonder if these darts were meant more as charge breakers. The way they seem to piece initially only enough to hang on in flesh, but then immediately fall down to foul legs or catch the ground reminds me alot of setting spears to to brace from impacts. It might also fit tactically since once a formation is moving at a decent trot, removing the dart at the same time would likely throw the formation off something fierce.
I absolutely love this channel! As a military history enthusiast, particularly classical and medieval, all of these experiments and insights are fantastic!
Indeed, really need a 'Bill' who more conforms to historical stature as well though - if you are a all of 5' human you will find a longer one harder just for its size, and biomechanically its going to have an influence - your arm levers are shorter!
@@foldionepapyrus3441 in the middle ages people were only slightly shorter than today, the big dip in stature happened at the start of the industrial revolution
@@TNaizel Not really, there is a definite dip when the quality and quantity of nutrition changes, which does happen at the IR, but there are still tends beyond that and folks tended to be significantly shorter than their modern descendants - rare is the old skeleton that is even 6 feet, but 6 feet is now really quite common for European males for instance.
So the lockdown longbow has been working out it appears. What is it now? The lockdown Scorpion or a Ballista? Love these videos Todd!! Keep up the amazing work and keep looking for answers!!
A new toy! Science and fun combined. It's fun to watch - and as a pen&paper master i could use your understanding for my adventures. Thanks so much for sharing your passion with us!
Hahaha, now THAT was fun! And you were absolutely spot on with the shoutout to Joerg. I could hear his big laughter through the entire video and even at one point a soft whisper of: “let me show you it’s features, hahahahaaaaaaa”
The question I would have is not just about whether the weapon could cause injury to an individual, but whether it could help break up a tight formation. Even just causing individuals to stop a moment to draw the dart out of their armour would slow down the formation even if no-one was actually hurt. I fully accept that with those kinds of heads it is unlikely to really be used against fully armoured troupes, but could still be effective against a peasant army, or maybe a group of archers who are lightly armoured.
I was just watching a video where a roman historian described how a legion would stop 50-75m away from the enemy and throw a light pilum, advance to 20-50m, and throw a heavy pilum. Id love to see how the standardized roman javelin design altered the range and penetration against targets. would be a great use of your thrower!
Great stuff as always, looking forward to seeing many more well calibrated tests on the various long thin pointy objects of history. Suggestion - have a crack at hitting ballistic gel torso or a pig/lamb chunk, looks more than repeatable enough to actually get the hits, and something more akin to a human muscle and bone would be nice - to see what they would all really do to the human inside both through the armor and bare - and assuming you eat meat and pick bits of animal dinner for the next few months is sorted.
@@tods_workshop As @MonkeyJedi99 pointed out, could you look into rock throwing? I remember seeing all sorts of historical references to a variety of rock throwing instruments that look to be right up your alley
I have always had a strong throwing arm. I got hold of a piece of rebar steel, that was heavy (like the Roman pilum). When i threw it, at +- 10 m, it went straight through a wooden door and to my amazement stuck into the brick wall behind it. All that weight concentrated in that one small point is absolutely devastating. There is no doubt in my mind that strong throwers can easily pierce armor with this or render a shield useless.
Oh fantastic! I can't wait to finally see what a Roman spear does. I think that long point looks specifically designed to knock out a single link of mail and keep going.
The spear thrower, particularly when throttled back, looks so leisurely. It just pushes the spear, visually so different in action from a longbow or crossbow.
Throwing darts to the shield: You don't have to penetrate the shield to render it ineffectual. In many ancient battles, archers and spear throwers would load up a shield with arrows/spears until it became unwieldly. Even just one of those darts stuck in a shield would make it very difficult to shift that shield around. Shield becomes difficult to quickly maneuver..... shield bearer becomes vulnerable. Shield bearer takes time to clear his shield (even just a sweep of his sword).... he's vulnerable again.
This made me think of a completely different factor of ancient warfare; In a world where ammunition scarcity would inevitably be a much greater factor than it is today, because every arrow has to be crafted by hand, and assembly lines haven't really been invented - what an amazing value there must've been in mounting equipment on fixed positions, making every shot vastly more accurate and repeatable.
As a children we used to make, what we called, Dutch Arrows. They were about the size of the arrows used in your test, but without the iron point a fire hardened point was our limit. As 12 to 14 year-olds ( after that we found girls! ) we would use a length of knotted cord in the manner of a woomera ( thanks Skippy) and the feeblest ( me ) could get the range of your colleague. The cord woomera had a knot in one end and was simply used to trap the remaining cord just foreword of the flights to our throwing hand position about two thirds of the length of the arrow. Some experimentation for the best hand position was needed and was often down to choice. Was this method ever used on the battlefield?
First thing is to ask Bill how far he can throw a heavier javelin, and then make war darts that weight and set the machine for that distance. Then with wax bodkins or the appropriate tips see what kind of damage a good javeliner could do.
I'm glad that Todd did up the power as I was wondering what might happen if the darts were thrown from an elevated position allowing for more velocity upon impact. As it turns out, nothing much if the intended targets were well armored.
Specifically on the Greeks throwing spears, those ranges are likely accurate if they are assumed to be using spear slings and thongs in order to increase their throwing power and range. Olympic throwers couldn't hit those ranges without mechanical assistance, but if you compare mechanically assisted spear throws with the old accounts, they're comparable.
Any army facing incoming spears at 15 meters or even 100 meters ...just seeing these spears falling out of the sky would put the fear of God into them and make the soldiers think twice about going forward. Love the ginormous crossbow!
i love the way a lot of your tests illustrate the point that armor is awesome but things hitting it the places where there's less armor still do a lot of damage
Seeing the regular throw hit that shield makes me think if something like that hit my shield closer to my arm, it would really bruise up my arm, making it hard to use the shield or that arm for much of anything for the rest of the day. Same goes for being hit in the chest, even if it didn't puncture, it would stun and bruise you pretty good. That first lucky throat shot was convincing in itself. If nothing else, a hundred of those scattered at the feet of a charging army would cause tripping, cutting of feet, and added confusion.
Seeing that made me think of something. A large bow like arm stuck into the ground or floor and using it like a leverage are with string tied too the arrow and its pulled back and released to throw arrows of that size. Would not have a large machine like a ballista or have to throw it. It would all be weight based like a slingshot. I think having multiple slots at different angles could adjust trajectory while how hard they can pull will adjust range.
I do wonder if you would be able to make these spears anti-armor. Obviously won't work with just throwing them, but with this brilliant contraption Tod made you might be able to simulate some sort of ballista. With a different head (and maybe some extra weight) these spears might be able to penetrate mail and shields. Would be fun to see Tod making different spears with different weights and spearheads to see what would work best against several types of armour/shields.
I could of course make things that definitely penetrate armour, but that's not what I am doing. I am trying to make a simulator for what really happened and hopefully that is what I have done
I recall from somewhere that mail and armor piercing arrows have very small heads, so they can punch through the armor. Big, broard heads, like the ones you were using, were meant to cut flesh and blood vessels, so as to inflict major damage on the target, be it a man or game of some sort.
Love it. I was thinking, depending on drag and terminal velocity, gravity might nudge up impact force shooting from a high wall down onto targets. Ballistics of low or high angles is way different than "flat" trajectories against coplanar targets. Anyway, always a hoot. Keep doing awesome stuff.
I still think these should be thrown using an atlatl. I know they most likely wouldn't have used an atlatl during that time period but their over size and design leads themselves to working best with one. Great video as always Tod 👍👍
I think you're correct in that those wide heads are for flesh but I'd love to see a solid hit on the mail instead of right at the bottom with nothing behind it.
An interesting note here, could be the use in disrupting an advancing enemy unit. A number of skirmishers working in advance of the main line unit could throw these at an opposing line unit to disrupt the enemy. Even if you know that it wont penetrate your armour, you still have the natural response to raise your shield or protect yourself, and against lighter armoured men, or those with open helms these could be very effective if employed in this manner - sure, your unlikely to get hit in the face but if you are it wont be pretty, so you raise your arm, you duck back, you cover yourself. The line becomes disrupted, the charge or advance halts, or the line is disturbed, as the skirmishers clear out of the way and their supporting line charges. It probably never happened, but it is something to think about.
string/rubber machine have high acceleration strength at the beginning and none by the nozzle, while human provides more or less constant acceleration almost all the way through, like a railgun. As I recall from history lessons(?), Roman Pilums were designed with extremely narrow front side shaft and small point, which was also fragile so that it would break off - it was more for lightly armored targets than flesh
Fun and interesting - the best You can get. I do however have soe more questions. Today's ammo is rather a single use type - how sure are we that those projectiles were being reused - if not, the damage to the head would not matter. But what if it wasn't meant for killing, but for slowing down, or for the punching damage. Looking at your targets - they did feel the hit.
I would love to see these heads compared to something slightly narrower like the Angon or even a Pilum now that you've got this machine to be able to replicate Bill throughout time
@@tods_workshop I think it'd be worthwhile just as a baseline, you could probably make it more complicated afterwards and add a way to simulate the target charging the thrower akin to Mike Loades' test to see what kind of potential damage each would incur
would love to see them build a roman ballista that can reach almost 500 meter with a big spear, but no one on youtube so far made anything that going more than 100
Just when you thought the trebuchet was bad enough, Tod makes a post-apocalyptic anti-aircraft spear thrower. If you weren't on a watch list already...
Ive been working on a 4 armed ballista based off of how Genghis Khans triple siege crossbows design, taking mainly the style he used for linking the sets of limbs together. Its a smallish scale model though around 5 foot long since the price of lumber is ridiculous right now.
More like a dragon hunting device.
Ship it to Ukraine. Add some trigger point silver nitrate and a load of RDX, should do nicely against unarmoured targets, For armoured targets... Well, there is the Ukranian tractor. ;)
A seige tower will replace his sedan.
Supersonic post-apocalyptic trebuchet!
ruclips.net/video/gdXOS-B0Bus/видео.html
Very cool tests! The result was predictable of course. This super wide tip would require a huge amount of energy to cut through any halfway tough matter. Humans can't throw hard enough to generate that much kinetic energy.
But it would be interesting to see what happens if you put a very thin hardened steel tip on the dart. I think it would go through the chain mail, but certainly not through the plated armor. I once made a monster version of your launcher, using a huge amount of rubber, and the dart was able to go all the way through a car door... so Achilles would have ruled the battlefield with those darts for sure!
Thanks for popping by Joerg. You are right, but if there is one thing I have found out about history, is people have assumed too much and so I like to go and try things and find out if they fit with what is written in the books and usually they do, sometimes they don't. In the case of the Irish throwing darts at the English, of course nobody much cared about looking from the Irish point of view and so many details of 'can they?' and such things are lost
That was the episode that made me rethink everything I thought I knew about rubber power! That was devastating
Well, I guess you could throw this with a simple rope as a spear thrower, those where called "Swiss arrows". That would increase range and power a whole lot, and maybe be enough to penetrate some simple armour like a gambeson. I always wondered if this is the way they where originally intended for.
I have always had a strong throwing arm. I got hold of a piece of rebar steel, that was heavy (like the Roman pilum). When i threw it, at +- 10 m, it went straight through a wooden door and to my amazement stuck into the brick wall behind it. All that weight concentrated in that one small point is absolutely devastating. There is no doubt in my mind that strong throwers can easily pierce armor with this or render a shield useless.
Tod: Let's downgrade our spear thrower so that it accurately represents a grizzled medieval solder on the battlefield.
Joerg Sprave: Let's not only upgrade our spear thrower to the point that only a giant german powerhouse can set it, but let's also make it a repeater that can fire 25 spears in 2 seconds.
I started typing this comment while watching the vid and halfway through typing Tod gave Joerg a shout out. Not really surprising.
Joerg after all is the bench mark for this kind of thing
You forgot to show us its features.
@@tods_workshop He's not just the benchmark, he's also the bench.
@@r0cketplumber I mean, gigglegrass was involved, but I laughed out loud.
Joerg did build something like this a while back: ruclips.net/video/Ool1i98Z_J0/видео.html
I just absolutely Love that you go for the scientific, ‚correct‘ way of measuring things but then also do those ‚champion of the tribe‘ Test.
It‘s just so fun AND informative! Lovely.
reminds me of how Mythbusters did with replicating the method and then the result, it's really fun way of doing science
You're back! After 3 weeks and no updates I was worried that the Trebuchet had got the better of you. Glad to see you're still finding new ways of throwing painful things a long way :D
sorry - got side tracked
@@tods_workshop Let me guess, you got the gang together, Joe the archer, Will the fletcher, Kevin the armorer, Toby the knight and now Bill the javelineer and took over Dover Castle?
@@tods_workshop ring mail! 'chainmail' is a victorian neologism
*deep laugh* “let me show you it’s features”
After Tod said his test ballista thing was very post-apocalyptic, I pictured a pair of them up on some ramparts made of rusty junk that are flanking the gate into some sort of post-apocalyptic survivor/trader junk town.
...coming to England, 2023! ;)
@@silverbladeTE Honestly, that would make for a siiiick post-apoc LARP location.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop "LARP"?
I'm talking about real life (tm) !! lol
way things are going, Todd, Matt Easton etc maybe the kings of the "wasteland" ;)
Krulty - Brexit should accelerate this scenario
just like the video game Kenshi
Tod, that was brilliant, your approach to the scientific method is getting noticeably better over time. I think not because you are studying the Scientific Method and trying to apply it to your videos, but because you are interested in finding genuine results, and over time you are finding ways of getting them because of your passion for real history. My favourite RUclips channel by a country mile.
Thanks Ben - really appreciated and very kind words
@@tods_workshop Tod, I know you do a specific range of bladed weapons, mostly European middle ages stuff, but how would you feel about doing a proper Seax, something between an everyday tool and a weapon. I have seen some nice ones online, but I am always concerned about the seemingly non ergonomic handle.
If Slingshot Channel colabs with Tod to build an epic launcher, it'd make my year!
Ha! My very first thought when seeing this video was that it needs a Joerg Sprave touch!
Instant Legolas that thing. Instantly.
they already collaborated for the "insant legolas" bow.
The most powerful Olympic javelin throws involve a runup rather than a standing throw. That'd be a difficult technique to employ in a martial context, but skirmishers may have used it. Accuracy would presumably be poor, but hurling javelins/spears into an opposing formation could work. Similarly, the test of spear throwing ability of experienced throwers on Melville Island recounted in Sir Baldwin Spencer's 1914 *Native Tribes of the Northern Territory of Australia* involved a 20ft runup. The nine men who competed managed 104-143ft (31.7-43.6m) with a 10.5ft, 4lb spear. In a vacuum, even the shortest throw would probably require around 300 J of kinetic energy. The exact release angle & aerodynamics might mean it was more or less, but still considerable power.
Yep. I'd like to see some more 'stone age' tech tested.
If we ditch the fletching and that huge broadhead for a more appropriate stone tip.
What distance could Bill get with a 3m long spear? What about a 3 - 4m spear and a ~1m woomera?
Update: Jehan Creton's account of being in Ireland with Richard II in 1399, apparently written only a few years later, describes Irish darts as piercing both sides of mail coats. A picture in the manuscript shows riders with these long darts, which have modest spear-type heads & no visible fletching. It's at least theoretically possible a longer dart with a thinner point could do better against armor.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 they do look like they were designed by someone who doesnt use weapons, they look intimidating and like they could do some damage, but if thats all they do in todds demo, like whats the point in wasting that much metal, how many more functional arrow heads could you make?... would really like to see a large group of these launched from an adapted catapult, like what distance would they go?
I think you're probably underestimating the combat effectiveness of a running throw. With practice I bet you could get as accurate as standing still. I agree it was probably more useful in the context of formations, mostly because of the timing, particularly latency between acquiring your target and launching.
Interesting thing about Bill being able to throw the heavier javelins further than the lighter darts: Human beings are great at producing torque with our limbs, and our ability to impart energy to an object is typically more limited by the maximum speed we can generate with our arm than our ability to accelerate the mass up to that speed.
A heavier object, brought up to the same speed as a lighter one, will contain more momentum and, therefore, will resist drag better resulting in maintaining more of its launch velocity.
Exactly. Tod actually discovered this same thing a while ago when experimenting with different arrows in heavy crossbows--the inertia of the limbs themselves puts a hard limit on maximum projectile "muzzle" velocity, so maximum range was not achieved with the lightest bolts.
Interesting.
true but practice and and skill comes into play. Basically something light is thrown different then heavy they are just likely swore and hit horse maybe even an under hand throw. Where I do agree is that arrow head is not meant to pierce armor it not the right shape to do that.
It has more to do with biomechanics: if you pretension your muscles than you can exert more force. With the heavier dart, due to its inertia, Bill can pretension his muscles more. Of course there is a maximum amount of pretension, after it the exerted force wont increase.
@@balazsgezakadar7927 yeah, part of it comes down to muscle fiber recruitment. Our muscles only fire as many muscle fibers as are needed to accelerate the thing we're moving. Pushing against something heavier gives our muscles more of a challenge so they activate more muscle fibers.
Tod is always saying "they were smart, if it worked they likely would've done it" such as waxing the arrow tips. And just like his guest star (and Tod himself) said these darts were uncomfortable to throw and clearly ineffective; why not assume these were heavier? If it's clearly possible to throw heavier objects further why are acting like these were something that were used?
Assuming the material they used is known, then there's hardly any way the original ones could have been much heavier, right?
I assume he's using some sort of hardware dowel, might be similar to pine. So if he gets some kind of fancier, heavier wood turned down to 1" and give that a go. Oak and Yew are relatively heavy and sort of endemic to the areas which these things would have been made in.
Could they have had lead slugs? Or thicker iron/steel?
@@Jixxor They were also likely to often times be using freshly cut wood which would have been wet and that adds a surprising amount of weight. To would have been using a dry piece of wood that he bought.
Or perhaps they used it with a throwing stick? An atl-atl?
Your replicators are awesome! Would it be possible to see a test of these from an elevated position? I think that, thrown in mass, may be more effective than when thrown from the ground. LOVE YOUR STUFF!!!
And they're a bit too heavy to throw/fire back up : )
Oh boy, Tod has thrown down the gauntlet for Joerg! Hell yeah! Cannot wait to see what sort of monster dart thrower Joerg comes up with!
Dind't he (Jörg) make just something like that in his early days??
@@FlavioLanfranconi yes, I think so, but you just know now that Tod has said something Joerg is gonna create something even more diabolical and awesome. At least I hope he does!
Joerg - bring it on!
Tod having far, far too much fun. And we LOVE it!
I mean, as your theory is, that these arrows were used predominantly against horses, ballistic gel with a soft leather cover seems to be the logical next step in discovery, to see what it would have actually done, when hitting a horse. Then with an additional layer of thick textile, to simulate the most commonly used horse armor.
Thank you , Tod .
Cheers Bill.
I have to wonder if these darts were meant more as charge breakers. The way they seem to piece initially only enough to hang on in flesh, but then immediately fall down to foul legs or catch the ground reminds me alot of setting spears to to brace from impacts. It might also fit tactically since once a formation is moving at a decent trot, removing the dart at the same time would likely throw the formation off something fierce.
Wonderfull! Brilliant idea, and machine, to replicate the average human.
Next: Pilum, then heavy, light, atlatl, amentum, soliferrum, everything.
for sure and I really want to look at Pilum
Tod is one tragedy away from becoming a terrifying Bond villain IRL 😂
I absolutely love this channel! As a military history enthusiast, particularly classical and medieval, all of these experiments and insights are fantastic!
Thanks and glad I am of use to someone
What's interesting is bill's feedback that it should be heavier. Surely the ancients were using heavier weights if that was easier to use
Indeed, really need a 'Bill' who more conforms to historical stature as well though - if you are a all of 5' human you will find a longer one harder just for its size, and biomechanically its going to have an influence - your arm levers are shorter!
@@foldionepapyrus3441 in the middle ages people were only slightly shorter than today, the big dip in stature happened at the start of the industrial revolution
@@TNaizel Not really, there is a definite dip when the quality and quantity of nutrition changes, which does happen at the IR, but there are still tends beyond that and folks tended to be significantly shorter than their modern descendants - rare is the old skeleton that is even 6 feet, but 6 feet is now really quite common for European males for instance.
So the lockdown longbow has been working out it appears. What is it now? The lockdown Scorpion or a Ballista? Love these videos Todd!! Keep up the amazing work and keep looking for answers!!
The Lockdown Longbow is a crossbow emulating a longbow. This is a ballista or scorpion emulating a Bill, so it's the Lockdown Bill :D
I dub thee, Billista.
Mechanical Bill
I think we've all had enough of the lockdowns....we've moved onto food shortages and looming economic catastrophe...perfect recipe for human conflict.
Little did Tod know; instead of making a giant spear thrower, he actually made a compact Ballista.
*glances at giant crossbow-slingshot thing*
"Let me show you its features!"
That launcher contraption is so cool! Fascinating video, Tod!
Thanks
I like that you're figuring out what the average thrower in an army could do, but also what the elite could do!
Medieval Mythbusters! Lovely video, Tod.
A new toy! Science and fun combined. It's fun to watch - and as a pen&paper master i could use your understanding for my adventures. Thanks so much for sharing your passion with us!
Glad to help
Hahaha, now THAT was fun! And you were absolutely spot on with the shoutout to Joerg. I could hear his big laughter through the entire video and even at one point a soft whisper of: “let me show you it’s features, hahahahaaaaaaa”
Ballista. You SO need a ballista. Torsion is awesome.
Got one, jus need to frag it out
Pretty cool. The way that tip curled was perfect.
Lol love how Bill easily serves as an example of "practice makes perfect" hah, that throw looked so different from Tod's.
I know. Depressing isn't it?
Amazing work as always! Looking forward for pilum and javelin tests.
I just love your happiness, when you throw/shoot something. It makes me feel better about the world :)
And I feel happier for reading this - I wish the worlds problems were so easily solved - damn its shite right now
I once watched a guy pin a properly constructed shield to an oak tree with a pilum.
The question I would have is not just about whether the weapon could cause injury to an individual, but whether it could help break up a tight formation. Even just causing individuals to stop a moment to draw the dart out of their armour would slow down the formation even if no-one was actually hurt.
I fully accept that with those kinds of heads it is unlikely to really be used against fully armoured troupes, but could still be effective against a peasant army, or maybe a group of archers who are lightly armoured.
I was just watching a video where a roman historian described how a legion would stop 50-75m away from the enemy and throw a light pilum, advance to 20-50m, and throw a heavy pilum.
Id love to see how the standardized roman javelin design altered the range and penetration against targets. would be a great use of your thrower!
Great stuff as always, looking forward to seeing many more well calibrated tests on the various long thin pointy objects of history. Suggestion - have a crack at hitting ballistic gel torso or a pig/lamb chunk, looks more than repeatable enough to actually get the hits, and something more akin to a human muscle and bone would be nice - to see what they would all really do to the human inside both through the armor and bare - and assuming you eat meat and pick bits of animal dinner for the next few months is sorted.
I always get excited when I see you release a new video, you rock!
Thanks
That gives me an idea! Use this to throw rocks!
@@MonkeyJedi99 That's a great idea!
@@tods_workshop As @MonkeyJedi99 pointed out, could you look into rock throwing? I remember seeing all sorts of historical references to a variety of rock throwing instruments that look to be right up your alley
I am always happy when I see an upload from Tod's Workshop! 😊
I have always had a strong throwing arm. I got hold of a piece of rebar steel, that was heavy (like the Roman pilum). When i threw it, at +- 10 m, it went straight through a wooden door and to my amazement stuck into the brick wall behind it. All that weight concentrated in that one small point is absolutely devastating. There is no doubt in my mind that strong throwers can easily pierce armor with this or render a shield useless.
This spear thrower is really accurate. Great work on that.
Oh fantastic! I can't wait to finally see what a Roman spear does. I think that long point looks specifically designed to knock out a single link of mail and keep going.
The spear thrower, particularly when throttled back, looks so leisurely. It just pushes the spear, visually so different in action from a longbow or crossbow.
Throwing darts to the shield: You don't have to penetrate the shield to render it ineffectual.
In many ancient battles, archers and spear throwers would load up a shield with arrows/spears until it became unwieldly. Even just one of those darts stuck in a shield would make it very difficult to shift that shield around.
Shield becomes difficult to quickly maneuver..... shield bearer becomes vulnerable.
Shield bearer takes time to clear his shield (even just a sweep of his sword).... he's vulnerable again.
It’s amazing to me how quiet that machine is. Great experiment!
At the "standard Bill" setting, there was more noise from the projectile's flight than from the launcher.
Awesome! Thank you, Tod, keep doing it!
Always a good day when it starts with another Tod's Workshop addition!
Enjoy!
I love this channel so much, the enthusiam and joy of everything that is shown here is just perfect.
Thanks
Yet another lovely piece of kit. Can't wait to see what mischief you get up to with it.
Looking forward to further testing!
This made me think of a completely different factor of ancient warfare; In a world where ammunition scarcity would inevitably be a much greater factor than it is today, because every arrow has to be crafted by hand, and assembly lines haven't really been invented - what an amazing value there must've been in mounting equipment on fixed positions, making every shot vastly more accurate and repeatable.
Well done Todd. Really enjoy watching these.
As a children we used to make, what we called, Dutch Arrows. They were about the size of the arrows used in your test, but without the iron point a fire hardened point was our limit. As 12 to 14 year-olds ( after that we found girls! ) we would use a length of knotted cord in the manner of a woomera ( thanks Skippy) and the feeblest ( me ) could get the range of your colleague. The cord woomera had a knot in one end and was simply used to trap the remaining cord just foreword of the flights to our throwing hand position about two thirds of the length of the arrow. Some experimentation for the best hand position was needed and was often down to choice. Was this method ever used on the battlefield?
First thing is to ask Bill how far he can throw a heavier javelin, and then make war darts that weight and set the machine for that distance. Then with wax bodkins or the appropriate tips see what kind of damage a good javeliner could do.
What if you added a weight around the neck of the dart, like a Roman pilum. Would that increase the weight, distance, and strength of a throw?
That's what I was thinking. If those darts are subpar in terms of energy that thrower can deliver - maybe they were in fact havier in real life?
I love the hereldry on the shield, very nice.
Love Tod's videos very informative and thought provoking.
This spear-throwing contraption seems very similar to a ballista, doesn't it?
Tod should call Jorg and let's start a proper competition.
Let me show you its features
This channel is gold
Unit captain: "Uh oh, that guy has a shield a brestplate and chainmail, we may as well just surrender."
Spear thrower: "I want a piece of him!"
Yes for the content! Here for the joy of the experiment!
I love the sound it makes when you let loose that spear.
I'm glad that Todd did up the power as I was wondering what might happen if the darts were thrown from an elevated position allowing for more velocity upon impact. As it turns out, nothing much if the intended targets were well armored.
I think the feedback from your expert thrower was that they need to be heavier.
Yes, but it seems that historically they were not
That moment when Tod was "it can't penetrate armour, we prove that... not let's see what it can do?" had such Mythbusters vibe =)
Specifically on the Greeks throwing spears, those ranges are likely accurate if they are assumed to be using spear slings and thongs in order to increase their throwing power and range. Olympic throwers couldn't hit those ranges without mechanical assistance, but if you compare mechanically assisted spear throws with the old accounts, they're comparable.
You could cut back the leading edge on those fletchings to reduce drag.
Your throws aren't worthless for experimentating, they help figure out the degree of proficiency required to make it start looking viable
Awesome stuff Todd. I look forward to w=seeing more of this machine.
Any army facing incoming spears at 15 meters or even 100 meters ...just seeing these spears falling out of the sky would put the fear of God into them and make the soldiers think twice about going forward.
Love the ginormous crossbow!
Very nice Tod. Great vid.
I would have loved to see Bill taking a few throws at the target because why not... but this machine is amazing!!!
I would liked to have seen more of Bill throwing the darts, measuring the repeatability, trajectories and speed - as seen in the trebuchet videos.
Very cool demonstration.
i love the way a lot of your tests illustrate the point that armor is awesome but things hitting it the places where there's less armor still do a lot of damage
Seeing the regular throw hit that shield makes me think if something like that hit my shield closer to my arm, it would really bruise up my arm, making it hard to use the shield or that arm for much of anything for the rest of the day. Same goes for being hit in the chest, even if it didn't puncture, it would stun and bruise you pretty good. That first lucky throat shot was convincing in itself. If nothing else, a hundred of those scattered at the feet of a charging army would cause tripping, cutting of feet, and added confusion.
Now your just living the life I want to live! Sweet video!
Seeing that made me think of something. A large bow like arm stuck into the ground or floor and using it like a leverage are with string tied too the arrow and its pulled back and released to throw arrows of that size. Would not have a large machine like a ballista or have to throw it. It would all be weight based like a slingshot. I think having multiple slots at different angles could adjust trajectory while how hard they can pull will adjust range.
I do wonder if you would be able to make these spears anti-armor. Obviously won't work with just throwing them, but with this brilliant contraption Tod made you might be able to simulate some sort of ballista. With a different head (and maybe some extra weight) these spears might be able to penetrate mail and shields. Would be fun to see Tod making different spears with different weights and spearheads to see what would work best against several types of armour/shields.
I could of course make things that definitely penetrate armour, but that's not what I am doing. I am trying to make a simulator for what really happened and hopefully that is what I have done
Great video as always Tod, thank you!
Gonna save this for post-apocalyptic heavy weaponry. This thing looks and performs like a beast. Gotta use heavier projectile tho.
Exploding tip with a peizo electic trigger like an rpg
I recall from somewhere that mail and armor piercing arrows have very small heads, so they can punch through the armor. Big, broard heads, like the ones you were using, were meant to cut flesh and blood vessels, so as to inflict major damage on the target, be it a man or game of some sort.
exactly
Love the guzzled warrior, Bob. Hope to be throwing as well as him.
Love it. I was thinking, depending on drag and terminal velocity, gravity might nudge up impact force shooting from a high wall down onto targets. Ballistics of low or high angles is way different than "flat" trajectories against coplanar targets. Anyway, always a hoot. Keep doing awesome stuff.
I still think these should be thrown using an atlatl. I know they most likely wouldn't have used an atlatl during that time period but their over size and design leads themselves to working best with one.
Great video as always Tod 👍👍
Thank you for all the work you put into these testing videos. Absolutely love the content on this channel. Keep up the good work, sir. Cheers!
Glad you like them!
I can’t wait for the new and improved giant spear thrower! Maybe with elements of the lockdown longbow and mini catapult.
this thing is amazing. it looks so goofy but it is so simple and effective. definetly don't want to be on the receiving end without plate armor
I think you're correct in that those wide heads are for flesh but I'd love to see a solid hit on the mail instead of right at the bottom with nothing behind it.
Tod: "Bill is a little bit past his prime..."
Bill: "(Tosh)"
An interesting note here, could be the use in disrupting an advancing enemy unit. A number of skirmishers working in advance of the main line unit could throw these at an opposing line unit to disrupt the enemy. Even if you know that it wont penetrate your armour, you still have the natural response to raise your shield or protect yourself, and against lighter armoured men, or those with open helms these could be very effective if employed in this manner - sure, your unlikely to get hit in the face but if you are it wont be pretty, so you raise your arm, you duck back, you cover yourself. The line becomes disrupted, the charge or advance halts, or the line is disturbed, as the skirmishers clear out of the way and their supporting line charges.
It probably never happened, but it is something to think about.
Yes it is and thanks for the thoughts
That chainmail shot would be game over without a cod piece
string/rubber machine have high acceleration strength at the beginning and none by the nozzle,
while human provides more or less constant acceleration almost all the way through, like a railgun.
As I recall from history lessons(?), Roman Pilums were designed with extremely narrow front side shaft and small point, which was also fragile so that it would break off - it was more for lightly armored targets than flesh
Fun and interesting - the best You can get. I do however have soe more questions. Today's ammo is rather a single use type - how sure are we that those projectiles were being reused - if not, the damage to the head would not matter. But what if it wasn't meant for killing, but for slowing down, or for the punching damage. Looking at your targets - they did feel the hit.
I would love to see these heads compared to something slightly narrower like the Angon or even a Pilum now that you've got this machine to be able to replicate Bill throughout time
Shall we do it?
@@tods_workshop I think it'd be worthwhile just as a baseline, you could probably make it more complicated afterwards and add a way to simulate the target charging the thrower akin to Mike Loades' test to see what kind of potential damage each would incur
Loving your work xxx
would love to see them build a roman ballista that can reach almost 500 meter with a big spear, but no one on youtube so far made anything that going more than 100
Great video!