Horror Art, Shadow Shapes, and Mentor Friendships - Draftsmen S3E17
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
- It’s that time again! Marshall and Stan are back to answer some of your burning questions about artist and mentor friendships, horror art, getting your foot in the door as an instructor at Universities, balancing your interests and marketability, dealing with regret in an art career, finding fun alongside study, pricing commissions, and understanding spot blacks and shadows.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
03:15 - Voicemail 1: Artist Mentor Friendships
15:31 - Voicemail 2: Horror Art
24:26 - Voicemail 3: Teaching at a University
27:58 - Voicemail 4: What you want vs what's popular
35:22 - Voicemail 5: Regret from taking art as a career
43:47 - Voicemail 6: Hard to draw for fun
47:18 - Voicemail 7: Pricing Commissions
53:23 - Voicemail 8: My art is too cerebral
01:01:36 - Voicemail 9: Spot Blacks, Shadow Shapes
Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
Robert McKee - mckeestory.com/
Alan Moore’s Writing for Comics - amzn.to/3ypmgIN
The Walking Dead (AMC show) - www.imdb.com/title/tt1520211/
Nosferatu (1922) - amzn.to/3lvyEmN
The Leopard Man (Val Luten) - amzn.to/3A8HdYQ
The Exorcist - amzn.to/2Vn2VJT
Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds - amzn.to/3imShvb
Watts Atelier - wattsatelier.com/
Draftsmen Hit Makers - www.proko.com/494
How to Write Best-Selling Fiction - www.wondrium.com/
Marshall’s Design Your Career with a Whiteboard - • Design Your Career wit...
Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec - static.proko.com/media/images...
Writing the Natural Way - amzn.to/3AauUuX
Draftsmen Writing - proko.com/560
Referenced Artists - proko.com/562
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#artcommissions #artteaching #artadvice
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN:
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh , Sean Ramsey (www.peoplewhodrawstuff.com)
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
Thanks for leaving us all those great questions! If you’ve got a question we haven’t covered yet, call 1-858-609-9453 and leave us a voicemail.
Hey, look...Charlie has never done wrong by me. 😏 Charlie does great work!
What if you do what you love for a living and end up hating it because turning it into a career sucked the joy from it until you dread it to the point that it is now associated with that feeling and you can know longer go back to it? That is the sense of it. People would rather keep that special thing in there lives that brings them joy because it is pure. Offcoarse making money from what you love should be pursued, however this is the existential threat of it.
You guys have the best sense of humor😂
I have to admit, the primary draw to this podcast that I have experienced since yall started is the friendship yall have. Yall exemplify what the first caller is asking about. I get where he's coming from, the desire to find a mentor who you can learn from. But unless there is money involved (exchange of goods/services) or equivalent peer to peer sharing (professional environment) then the only way to get what he is seeking is to make friends. I think the benevolent Gandalf ready to share his ocean deep knowledge with little old Frodo is not something we can count on to progress.
I think it's fair for an older artist who knows much more than a younger one, to ask for compensation to make BOTH party's time more valuable. Then if the friendship lasts and builds on that, then perhaps both can endure and share new information together without expectations or payment.
If this person wants friends, then great! Go talk to people and give them your time, and show them your willingness to sacrifice on their behalf. That's what friendship is. Even if it's not a monetary gain, you must give something in return. Time...or resources, maybe your own knowledge, heck maybe it's just your personality that's the thing by which these things are formed.
I feel like "needs" kind of drive everything in the long run. All the amazing stuff in between is either a plus (like with colleagues), or "the journey is the destination" so to say (like with closer friends). It's too easy to lose contact even with family members if there's never a computer to set up, babies to sit, tires to change or even a new dry cake to try out or whatever. It's good to always owe a favor or two.
So asking how to befriend someone who doesn't need or want anything from you feels pretty strange to me. Excuses are to be made up, and some kind of reward or a paycheck is a viable activator.
yall yall yall yall yall yall yall
@@sgtpepper91 That's it? You read my comment and took the time to respond with this? Nothing constructive? Are you bored or lonely?
@@corg9363 yall read my comment and yall respond with this? yall bored or yall lonely?
The four ancient Greek words that describe the aspects of love are eros(sexual attraction or infatuation), philia(friendship or love based on common interest), storge(familial bond), and agape(love based on principle or values).
Love how Marshall reacts to the question. Always highly positive and reaching for the best.
I thought Gandalf and Bilbo did quite well on this one. 👍
With all due respect, I must say that I feel that Marshal and Stan are my hommies, even though we don't know each other and most likely we will never meet. I love listening to their conversations while drawing. I treasure this podcast and everything I have learned since its inception. Again, with all due respect, I think you have the potential to transform this podcast into something powerful if built more ambitiously, but I know they both have their own projects and businesses. Just an illusion.
Could you explain what something more ambitious would entail? More episodes or something else?
@@kullenberg I’m always interested in listening about art history, style development, artist’s process and most of all those details that usually Marshal use in his answers. I imagine that can be harnessed for more structure. Episodes devoted to one artist (classic or modern), studios (in eeuu or abroad), the process of an specific movie, etc. I know these types of ideas require significantly more research and production. More consistent use of images or videos. The interviews have been quite interesting. In a way, I imagine the podcast with more of the educational spine proko provides for all his classes and the classes of other artists. But Im aware that may not be a the scope of the podcast, originally design with a more casual structure.
That scene in Nosferatu of his shadow on the wall as he climbs the staircase terrified me as a child, and still creeps me out to this day. Never seen the movie, don't know how it holds up, but that image is burned in my brain forever.
Stan... your nailed it with your commission answer,.. I needed to hear that..totally agree with you.
On the note of exploitation, working for less, doing what you want vs what pays.
I started working in 3D animation in an entry level position, I'm grateful for the opportunity 10 years ago. Early I pivoted to programming with no prior experience in it, for the pay. I learned I had the knack for it, but eventually my interest in it was no longer sustained by the results of the work or the pay cheque. During the pandemic I transitioned out of pipeline and into rigging within the 3d animation industry. It was the best move for me. I'm happier, and now I'm making more money than I did as purely a programmer.
I think one important note for doing what you love vs what pays: The ceiling could be lower when you just do what pays, if for no other reason that you might lose the interest to advance. Where as if you do what you love or what interests you, you can keep going forever, so if there is higher compensation or positions you're after, you'll chase them.
If anyone is after a good horror/ dark art podcast and teacher please look up Chet Zar’s dark art society podcast :) he also has a great documentary called ‘I like to paint monsters’. He used to be a special effects make up artist in Hollywood that transitioned into full time painting nearly two decades ago
Chet is badass zack Dunn is another artist to look into
I actually like Stan's view on pricing commission.
That’s me in the first voicemail! Thanks for the response
I love cosmic horror, the horror of the unknown and incomprehensible, that makes you feel absolutely powerless. Good stuff.
Finally!!! They are gonna talk about horror art!!!😄
In the "pricing" episode I'd be very interested to also know more about contracts that Stan mentioned in this episode. Love you guys a lot!
Stan angrily screaming "I RESPECT UR DIFFERENT OPINION" made me crack up haha
Some of the best art friends I have met were from open studios. If it is a weekly open studio just show up every week. Become a part of the culture. Talk to everyone and mentors will be found.
Hey! Thank you guys for answering my question! Im so greatful for the insight you guys had to give! Cheers
The problem with a "diversified" portfolio is a potential employer is less likely to hire you if your work is all over the place. Your more likely to get the job if you have a tight, focused portfolio inline with the kind of art the job requires, especially for entry and intermediate level jobs. There's always going to be aspects of a job that you'll dislike, but that's why it's so important to find a perspective that makes those aspects enjoyable.
Love the horror discussion. Just recently rewatched 'The Happening' and realized that while death was the main subject of the movie, not one death is seen on screen... Yet it's terrifying, no gore necessary! Also 'Memories' (also Otomo Katsuhiro's Memories) is a 1995 Japanese animated science fiction, cosmic horror that leaves you speechless. Very different types of horror to study.
I agree that The Happening is horrifying but I wouldn't say it's because of effective storytelling kekw.
Memories is such a surreal movie, I love it. 👌🐈
I actually think The Happening is very funny
I guess, should clarify I'm more terrified of the psychological and cinematic aspects of The Happening, not necessarily Marky Mark being a science teacher... Or other scripty things... 🤣 Memories is a good one tho!
This show is great. So many books being purchased! You guys really provide inspiration and motivation. Keep it up!
this kid is so lucky. envious as i may be, i wish i had his problem. emotions are hell. run from them. at this age, sharpen your skills, deepen you knowledge. absorb. absorb everything. when you go outside, let the trees completely get into you. make it so that you do not express "yourself", because you dont really even "exist". draw the tree. the cup. the cougar. the way that hand of yours draws is inevitable, your subconscious, your vision; youre irrelevant, there is nothing to attach yourself to because you never chose to do art if you are an artist; thats at least what all true artists will know deep down that its an instinct as primal as love and hunger and thirst, and the need to dream.
so dont worry about it. youre already inevitable, you have no say as to "erase" yourself; its strange how trivial free will becomes in front of this mystery of creating.
This is totally unrelated to the topic and only related to the advertisement but I'm gratified to see that Stan is interested in stoicism!! I always felt that it suited him and always thought that he'd like it and be interested in it
Horror art is such a broad topic and it's awesome to see it being discussed in the podcast. Most modern horror art is driven by pop culture - movies, graphic novels, comic books, etc. But they really just draw largely upon what I would refer to as the horror aesthetic. Poe is frequently referred to as a horror writer/poet, which I think is false. He's a dramatic, morose writer who pulled upon thousands of years occultism and occult aesthetic to convey messages of sadness, paranoia, the meanings of omens (symbolism) in nature, etc. Dark versus light, dark engulfing light, light rising from the shadow are all visual themes in occult/gothic/symbolic horror that much of our pop culture uses. For the movie "Sinister," the director Scott Derrickson gave his crew a book of paintings from Caravaggio and told his visual team that he wanted "that look." However, Caravaggio was primarily a painter of religious scenery, even though some of it was grim. Then you have very bright, non-shadow based cosmic/aquatic horror where everything is bright, the colors are overly saturated, and the motions of the creatures/things are very fluid. Also very terrifying. Yet without context, you may look at a bioluminescent sea of algae and say "Wow, that's awesome!" Also worth noting: much of horror is based on social critique. "Night of the Living Dead," the zombie movie that spawned a whole genre, was deeply rooted in the idea of racism, a numb, droning society, the falling apart of the nuclear family, and class divisions that made communication difficult. It really portrays the idea that working together accomplished a lot of good, but self-motivated interests can obliterate progress. Horror is everything and nothing all at the same time. Walking home through the woods at night is terrifying (you're effectively blinded and sensory assaulted) yet the real bad stuff that happens in the woods occurs in the daylight. That's natures deception. I could go on and on. To anyone wanting to study horror, I would say look up occult artists, cosmic artists, and religious artists (so much horror is an inversion of religious iconography). Look up the historical underpinnings of angels, demons, omens, urban legends, etc. There are many artists who have tried tackling these subjects. Chet Zar also puts out a Dark Art podcast that is free to listen to. Every week he has on "dark" artists.
thanks for the video, i try my best to look cool in front of old people now :)
Re: spotting blacks, it may also be very useful to study film noir. Movie stills from classic noir movies are great examples of shadows both defining the form and as visual design/composition.
This came at exactly the right time for me, thank you! I'm currently trying to work out this exact thing for a character concept.
That is how I got my art teaching job :) they liked me and asked me if I would like to teach at their art school. I now have my own art school
Be kind and polite.. and always follow your heart!
Love you guys 💕!
im so glad someone finally called out the "never underprice yourself" crowd
39:00 Stan, I think the point the caller was trying to make is that if you have an art job and it ruins your love of art that could be more damaging than working a regular bad job but you have art on the site, untainted, that you love.
Love it.
haha that opening question by proko, man. happens everytime.
Same goes for any type of medium not only film, the horror art can come in painting, sulpture, poetry etc. But we dont always feel like digesting the same genre over and over again, not just the horror genre. Take Goya's horror painting for example...theyre kind of heavy, emotionaly speaking. If you watch those for too long admiring them will feel like work and you can end up loosing the likeness for them. The first time you encounter them feels like if you where doing a pact with the devil yourself just by looking at it. One good recomendation is to work diferent genres, but there is also nothing wrong with being a "genre autor" (as in the artist that only works one genre). You are missing a lot if you dont watch horror movies, i guess you can give more importance to it if yourselves (with help of your students) work homemade short-films from diferent horror genres.
I respect your different opinions. I am so gonna use this in my life and work.
i miss the studio episodes
Well, I'm young, and I like old people who are wise, accepting, and fun to talk to. This goes especially especially if they can give me life advice, which is extremely useful, as they do have experience that I never can, until I'm past the point it will be relevant (for some info).
Few minutes in and Stan brought up about Pareidolia, this would be an epic episode ! 😊☕
Oh now were F***** Talkin, I make Horror/Surreal art and I'm so excited to hear their perspective.
"Spoting blacks" its a term used by non-begginers. Plan in tones plus light and shadow, then choose if your black is a dominant or an accent. Its more of a "composition" matter.
In the video about commission prices, please talk about how to price prints compared to original artwork too.
Me, having just accepted commissions for $30-50 dollars knowing I'm underpricing myself: oh 100 is beginner level peanuts? haha yeah;;;;;;;;;;
I think there's a couple main things that have made me hesitate to raise prices on my work, mainly being: the pricing of my peers commissions, whose skill is often even beyond my own. It makes me feel like 'who am i to raise my prices above theirs? I'm not better than them' it makes me feel like I'm thinking too highly of myself. And it'd be embarrassing to raise my prices and then have no one commission me and then have to lower them again... Even though I'd never judge my peers for having higher prices, I still find myself self-conscious.
And I'm talking like, in fandom spaces where $15-50 is often the norm, with the occasional artist that goes up to $50-150 or something... Often times the only thing going over 100 or 200 is complete painted illustrations with detailed backgrounds and everything...
And secondly, I grew up so poor that it already kinda blows my mind that someone would drop $50 on something I make and I feel pressure even with that to make sure they're happy with it. I'll even be way more generous than my commission page was, and I think that's partly because I feel like I have to make up for any potential disappointment.
Like one time I was like 'Here, I know you paid for portrait but I'll do this as half-body just because I think the drawing would work better that way, don't worry I wont charge you more!' and even though I *was* willing, and even though I was honest about that (it really did work better half body) I think there's a part of me that's kinda angry at myself for treating myself this way. But I've been struggling with self worth and motivation a lot lately. I just feel like I can never know for sure if I can deliver what the commissioner wants, so that uncertainty makes me feel like I shouldn't ask for too much.
I prefer a job that sustains my passion as opposed to my passion being my job. I've freelanced for over a year and I'm not enjoying myself because I hate making art for money. My hands hurt, I'm not making a lot of money, and my passion is completely drained, even if I take on jobs I technically like. The stress of figuring out where to get my next paycheck is enough to kill the love I have for it, so I'm getting a dayjob whatever it may be!
to make a friend, be a friend. Be honestly interested in them and if you pick well you will find they will reciprocate. There are quid pro quos around finding people that you can honestly e interested in being around and not all people respond in kind. But keep trying and you will find your friends.... eventually.
I got Welcome to Night Vale vibes from that Grovemade ad 😂❤️
Metaphors thats very good one. Yeah spot black meant starting to ink a comic by inking the huge black spots, dont know if it because you could render the image faster or because you could ruin it
Episode Summary : Professional artist yells at friend about experience and opportunity 👏😂😂
I'm excited to hear what your opinions would be in The Commission Episode
10:15 😈🍭
Hello friends, I wanted to suggest that if you run out of visual art topics then it should greatly benefit the channel to also talk about different forms of arts, mainly music, and discovering whatever technical and theoretical parallells exist between visual art and musical art.
Love and peace!
57:50 True 🤣
Did I just read HORROR ART? I’m very interested indeed👀 I personally really want to get good at horror art, especially scary creature/humanoid character design. But I’m not sure how to PRACTICE it?
Practice by doing. Ask for feedback.
What type of horror? To what extent do want to visually go? Nfsw, gore, just monsters
Do you read comics or manga? It’s a genre. So you could check those artist out.
There are plenty of artists on Twitter, ArtStation, deviantart, and Instagram that do that. Find them through the internet and study their work.
Learn anatomy and light /shadow rendering
Look into tenebrismo and ciaroscuro history of classical painting too
Hey you guys should totally get Chris from the youtube channel the Futur. He's amazing at explaining pricing for freelancing!
Yeah that's coool Beavis..
Dang, should of had Erik in on this. Horror art and all.
Love Walking Dead watched it like 6 times lol
That last one doesnt make sense because it would be better to start with the details and then the rest, that way if you mess up details then you wouldnt have to start all over again, so it must be to render the image faster, as in the finished piece. If you start spoting the blacks then youll stablish the shapes faster, think of the blacks as a super glue, it holds the entire image togheter. So by the time you finish spoting the blacks you will probably have half of the image finished (thats why the most important thing to study is composition).
The tools are also very important, for cerebral art maybe cerebral tools are needed. Is just recently understood how dificult is to draw on a normal notepad, theyre too small and the paper too thin...i spent a lifetime working on those things. Huge notepads will always be a necesity for artists.
The scaling for details in digital might feel like an advantage but its really really a negative aspect for the artist not just the begginer one; after shifting from drawing digital back to traditional (because my notebook broke) i found myself constantly trying to zoom into my drawing to get my details right, its embarasing haha
FIRSTTTTTTT COMMENT
Wow...there is somekind of homosensual tension here between Marshall and Proko
Ah shit i got a notification from a lightborn guy, i cant find it couldnt read it, something about homosexual tension👬 amongst some of us who are comenting about prokos obvious homosexual tension towards marshall
I love the kind of horror (?) movies, with *no* to just a *pinch* of gore. I really prefer suspense over gore, gore if overused is like pouring a big bag of salt into the soup. It’s not tasteful anymore. Just salty. Ugly basically. - Just my humble opinion. 🤓
I think the same! Horror mixed with the genre of psychological thriller is cheFs kiSs. I think when gore is overused it gets gross rather than scary.
@@zombiedrool5437 Yes! I want scary - not gross! So totally agree!
I can't even make regular friends, let alone find an art buddy/mentor
Felt that.
:D
Is it just me or does the voicemails sounds like they're all made with the same three stock voices, male, female, child
LMAO i was just thinking these men all have the same voice
Getting your foot in the door to teach on the College level is extremely difficult. You have to have a very long curriculum Vita with professional level accolades, and you will most likely be teaching adjunct for a very long time before you are considered for a full time tenure track position. It is extremely political. Also if you are teaching adjunct, you will never be considered for a full time position at the University you are working for. You have to look outside of the school you are working. Trust me, I've waisted 7 years of my life working as an Adjunct Professor.
I’m so sorry this happened to you.
Your desk will grow lips? And thank you? Wow guy. 😆🤣🤦🤤 like i would've understood if you said a mouth....wait maybe thats worse.