I am with you on most of these but the one I disagree with is Eloquence as I would put that in SS as that level 3 feature completely takes away the social pillar of play as they would practically always succeed and because of that your dm would hate you just like if your a zealot barbarian
@@mohammadmurie My reasoning for putting them in S and not SS is pretty simple. I thought at first, yeah they would just pass every persuasion check, thats broken as hell. But passing, and getting what your character would want isn't exactly the same thing. Realistically if a Bard asks a dragon, "Hey wanna smash?" The dm would say roll a persuasion check. Not so that the player would have a chance to sleep with the dragon, there is no way in hell that dragon would allow that under any circumstance. No the persuasion check is there to see if the dragon is offended by this question and would attack the bard first, or if they find it amusing that such an imbecile is asking such a ridiculous question. The same thing applies to most everything. Persuasion isn't mind control, you need reputation with people to get something out of them, you need credibility, and lastly no one is going to give everything away to you with one conversation, even if you have an outstanding reputation with them and credibility. Its still great dont get me wrong, but its not a magic pass for everything in the game. You still need to do a considerable amount of social interactions to achieve something truly terrifying with this, but it means that you can reliably pass most of them.
Lore and Eloquence might be the two most broken classes in the game that aren't either A) Tasha's Clerics, or B) created specifically to be uber-cheese by Matt Mercer. Not at all understanding what Lore did to merit such a pitiful grade. If it offered literally nothing except its status as the single best counterspeller in the game, it would be S tier. But of course, it's a fully-fleshed out 9th level caster on top of that. It's a ridiculous class.
Like I said in the video, I know its great and it's probably a better tier in terms of power. But I personally don't like the class cause I find the features you get boring and why many players who don't know how powerful getting more spells is, don't chose Lore. I also didn't put Eloquence in the highest tier because even though their persuasion powers are incredible, it doesn't mean that the player will get what they want out of the persuasion. Like the "seduce the dragon" meme that bards have, you may roll a natural 20 as a Bard on persuasion and any DM wouldn't let the bard do anything with the dragon, rather they would most likely have the dragon laugh off the ridulous message the Bard just said and not kill them immediately for what they just said. Persuasion isn't mind control therefore it isn't as powerful as people think. That's why Eloquence is a good class but I personally don't think its a broken class.
I would also like to say that I think Abjuration Wizards are probably the best counterspellers in the game by far. Check them out they can do some crazy stuff.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial I disagree. Abjuration Wizards don’t get any bonuses to counterspell until 10th level. Any bard benefits from Jack of All Trades as soon as they get counterspell, and lore bards can add a bardic Inspiration die to the check at level 14. Besides, the best counterspeller is clearly the sorcerer. Subtle spell counterspell means your counter can’t be countered in turn, and magical guidance lets you reroll the check if you fail.
@@thunderdragonish true, however they get hit points back to their ward whenever casting it making it a great option for them. And adding proficiency is better imo then adding half proficiency plus another die.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial I’m just going to ignore the barrier regeneration since the only metric for success on a counterspell is actually succeeding on the check. It’s a nice little something, but 6 hit points is a small consolation prize for failing to stop a fireball to the face. Numerically, adding proficiency is far better than adding half. I can’t argue against that. But if your campaign is going to run from levels 1 through 10, (which most do) I would rather have a half bonus for 4 levels than a full bonus 1. [Edit! I forgot bards don’t have counterspell on their spell list, so this argument is really only valid for Lore Bards] Extending the comparison to higher levels of play, from the time abjuration Wizard’s bonus comes online at 10th level, through 16th level, Abjuration Wizard maintains an advantage of 2 points over any and every bard that takes counterspell through magical secrets. They finally pull ahead to a 3-point advantage over bards at 17th level. (2 vs 0 at lv 6-10 [lore only], 2 vs 4 at lv 10-12, 3 vs 5 at lv 13-16, and 3 vs 6 at lv 17-20.) the average roll for a bardic inspiration is 5.5 at 14th level when the lore bard’s self-Inspiration comes online, and 6.5 at 15th through 20th, leaving Wizard in the lead at levels 10 through 13. Unless of course the caster is a sorcerer with subtle spell, then he leaves both of them feeling like fools.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial Have you considered builds that dont necessarily need to deal tons of damage to be effective? Like an ultra buffer/ healing build, or a battlefield control stunlocker? Maybe something hilarious, like a video in which you try to make builds that never fail certain ability checks, like perception, stealth or persuasion.
@@aulderx1437 Actually, hopefully tomorrow a build is coming out that does have a damage part to it, but it is mainly a tank build! But yeah there will be more builds in the future that don't rely on damage as much.
I am with you on most of these but the one I disagree with is Eloquence as I would put that in SS as that level 3 feature completely takes away the social pillar of play as they would practically always succeed and because of that your dm would hate you just like if your a zealot barbarian
but still an amazing video and glad to see the ag barb getting ranked higher as that is about were I would put it
@@mohammadmurie My reasoning for putting them in S and not SS is pretty simple. I thought at first, yeah they would just pass every persuasion check, thats broken as hell. But passing, and getting what your character would want isn't exactly the same thing.
Realistically if a Bard asks a dragon, "Hey wanna smash?" The dm would say roll a persuasion check. Not so that the player would have a chance to sleep with the dragon, there is no way in hell that dragon would allow that under any circumstance. No the persuasion check is there to see if the dragon is offended by this question and would attack the bard first, or if they find it amusing that such an imbecile is asking such a ridiculous question.
The same thing applies to most everything. Persuasion isn't mind control, you need reputation with people to get something out of them, you need credibility, and lastly no one is going to give everything away to you with one conversation, even if you have an outstanding reputation with them and credibility.
Its still great dont get me wrong, but its not a magic pass for everything in the game. You still need to do a considerable amount of social interactions to achieve something truly terrifying with this, but it means that you can reliably pass most of them.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial oh ok thanks for clearing that up for me and based on that yeah now I am with you with it being S and not SS
Thanks
Lore and Eloquence might be the two most broken classes in the game that aren't either A) Tasha's Clerics, or B) created specifically to be uber-cheese by Matt Mercer.
Not at all understanding what Lore did to merit such a pitiful grade. If it offered literally nothing except its status as the single best counterspeller in the game, it would be S tier. But of course, it's a fully-fleshed out 9th level caster on top of that. It's a ridiculous class.
Like I said in the video, I know its great and it's probably a better tier in terms of power. But I personally don't like the class cause I find the features you get boring and why many players who don't know how powerful getting more spells is, don't chose Lore.
I also didn't put Eloquence in the highest tier because even though their persuasion powers are incredible, it doesn't mean that the player will get what they want out of the persuasion. Like the "seduce the dragon" meme that bards have, you may roll a natural 20 as a Bard on persuasion and any DM wouldn't let the bard do anything with the dragon, rather they would most likely have the dragon laugh off the ridulous message the Bard just said and not kill them immediately for what they just said. Persuasion isn't mind control therefore it isn't as powerful as people think. That's why Eloquence is a good class but I personally don't think its a broken class.
I would also like to say that I think Abjuration Wizards are probably the best counterspellers in the game by far. Check them out they can do some crazy stuff.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial I disagree. Abjuration Wizards don’t get any bonuses to counterspell until 10th level. Any bard benefits from Jack of All Trades as soon as they get counterspell, and lore bards can add a bardic Inspiration die to the check at level 14.
Besides, the best counterspeller is clearly the sorcerer. Subtle spell counterspell means your counter can’t be countered in turn, and magical guidance lets you reroll the check if you fail.
@@thunderdragonish true, however they get hit points back to their ward whenever casting it making it a great option for them. And adding proficiency is better imo then adding half proficiency plus another die.
@@MoonIllusionOfficial I’m just going to ignore the barrier regeneration since the only metric for success on a counterspell is actually succeeding on the check. It’s a nice little something, but 6 hit points is a small consolation prize for failing to stop a fireball to the face.
Numerically, adding proficiency is far better than adding half. I can’t argue against that. But if your campaign is going to run from levels 1 through 10, (which most do) I would rather have a half bonus for 4 levels than a full bonus 1. [Edit! I forgot bards don’t have counterspell on their spell list, so this argument is really only valid for Lore Bards] Extending the comparison to higher levels of play, from the time abjuration Wizard’s bonus comes online at 10th level, through 16th level, Abjuration Wizard maintains an advantage of 2 points over any and every bard that takes counterspell through magical secrets. They finally pull ahead to a 3-point advantage over bards at 17th level. (2 vs 0 at lv 6-10 [lore only], 2 vs 4 at lv 10-12, 3 vs 5 at lv 13-16, and 3 vs 6 at lv 17-20.) the average roll for a bardic inspiration is 5.5 at 14th level when the lore bard’s self-Inspiration comes online, and 6.5 at 15th through 20th, leaving Wizard in the lead at levels 10 through 13.
Unless of course the caster is a sorcerer with subtle spell, then he leaves both of them feeling like fools.
Do more please
Haha you got it boss 👍
Red
SUS
CHEESE
First
@@MoonIllusionOfficial indeed
@@MoonIllusionOfficial Have you considered builds that dont necessarily need to deal tons of damage to be effective? Like an ultra buffer/ healing build, or a battlefield control stunlocker? Maybe something hilarious, like a video in which you try to make builds that never fail certain ability checks, like perception, stealth or persuasion.
@@aulderx1437 Actually, hopefully tomorrow a build is coming out that does have a damage part to it, but it is mainly a tank build! But yeah there will be more builds in the future that don't rely on damage as much.