Re: the conversation about solo content and casuals, I think one of the issues with these discussions is players that want to play solo (often because of schedule and none of their friends being online) is a different kind of "casual" than someone who wants content where failure is impossible. I think the wow community has traditionally lumped these two demos together because the challenging content in the game has also always been grouped (and coordinated/scheduled content), but like dorki pointed out there is plenty of stuff out there like From games or games with more focus on solo queuing where the challenge is high but people don't hard commit to hour+ time blocks
Yes to everything here. Some casual are casual by circumstance, work, life, family and kids and would play way more if they could. Giving them the option to play some hard solo content would go a long way.
@@philosophicalthirstworms6645 No, they're just single boss fights and that's it. Horrific Visions were far more fun for me as it had progression and felt more strategic. The Mad World achievement was the most fun challenge I've ever had in the game. Torghast had the potential to be amazing if there were an infinite floors mode and more boss mechanics. Hopefully the new "Delves" will be good.
I think all the examples of good solo content that they gave like warlock green fire, brawler’s guild, withered army training, etc. are proof that blizzard could make delves great. If I walked into a delve and it was just the ending scenario of the warlock green fire quest at it’s original difficulty, that’d be great content. Just making more of those experiences and as repeatable content sounds great. If they nail it, it’ll be huge.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like there has been this pattern of them running experiments, having some early misfires, then tuning them to player taste by the end of the expansion, but then not incorporating the experiment into mainline WoW. It's like 75% of the PoE strategy but missing one of the most important parts. They seem to be changing their perspective on this, though, hopefully.
what a banger of an ep! I enjoyed seeing two people that have had disagreements explain the nuances of their arguments to eachother. I love all four of these creators so it was nice to see "mom and dad" getting along.
because one has unhinged opinions that wouldn't work for retails playerbase and the other actually plays the game with more than 2 functioning braincells
A whole lot of this comment section is embarrassing. If you can't accept someone outside the small space of higher end PvE with very differing opinions about retail coming on and sharing his well-articulated views on the topics discussed (and might I add also being generally very happy about the outlook of WoW), you're the one being an idiot. It bears absolutely no importance for what's discussed here that Asmongold doesn't play retail very much. In fact, the whole point of the episode is getting the perspective of someone who used to put completely degenerate hours into endgame content, but who has been lost along the way.
I would love to see LFR turn into single-player story mode raid where you can see all of the story by yourself and get some light rewards, normal mode becomes the entry into group raids, and heroic is the pinnacle of gearing. Then Mythic can become a prestige mode where you get cosmetics that are unavailable to other players (titles, transmog, mounts, etc.).
WoW has been back and trending in the right direction since season 3 of Shadowlands. Dragonflight is a good expansion regardless of what people who don't even play the game say.
To the casual player it’s probably the best expansion of all time which is definitely a good thing but if you play it the way you would a typical expansion it very quickly becomes empty and to be honest quite souless
I will contest the notion that gear is less epic in FF cause you can target it. That is total nonsense. The difference here is that in WoW often you don't get the item you want and you feel terrible. Eventually you might get the item you want or not and you feel relief. You can only feel great if you get the drop in your first or second run. In FF you can target your gear. You are always happy at the end of the run cause you either made progress towards the item you want or you just completed it and you are excited you just got it. One makes you feel bad more often than not, the other never makes you feel bad. What exactly is epic about disappointment? I never felt good for getting an item in WoW i felt relief the pain is over. In FF i feel enjoyment. I don't feel i wasted my time if i didn't get the item i wanted. It's not effin "epic". The only thing that would make the gear epic is to have a stupid OP effect in it, but then you will just feel worse for not having it.
Ok so random thought about torghast, what if they bring it back under the lore of sylvanas being condemned to the shadowlands until all the world tree souls are saved? Like what if there's a short questline that just reiterates the reason she's there and you can volunteer to help sylvanas do an extra difficult run of torghast to save trapped souls left in the jailers citadel? Give it some trandmog, pets, etc and that could be a solid way to keep it evergreen and make it hard
About the 'this button feels good to press in wrath vs in retail ' I play a bunch of classes in retail, and have multiple cutting edges. Id be slightly bored with singular important presses, whereas doing combustion with 2x lust in m+ or sub rogue burst windows feels insanely satisfying to the point wrath or many other expansions earlier on cannot compete. Even my healers doing a ramp pr proper setups hpala beacon of virtue into divine toll into dawnbreak, feels amazing. I get that each button individually might not feel as impactful, but they can play so good together I feel like that makes up for it
Account wide achievement progress for war bands is going to be so massive for me and probably many other players. I can’t be bothered to specifically farm “defuse 1000 bombs in IoC” on one character but I’ve certainly gained that between my 40 something max level characters I’ve carried between xpacs.
1:53:04 on the gatekeeping topic, I'm making groups for BFD in SoD and people are messaging me their gear score. There are raid leaders asking people to meet in Darnasus for a gear inspection before they invite you. This is for a level 25 raid, ive grabbed the first people that message me every reset and we've full cleared with no problem. The gatekeeping is so OTT
1:50:22 Max's point about not having to do stuff others are doing, in his example was about using a weak aura. The problem is WoW isn't a solo game. You play with other people and as such, you have to live up to their expectations or otherwise, other people aren't going to play with you.
I remember one time I saw a world first mage from Limit wiping in Brawler's guild. He wiped 2x on Ahooru. That's solid solo content right there if world top players can wipe on it.
Beta and Alpha access as pre-order rewards for the more expensive edition makes sense, as people that invested are more likely to log onto said Alpha and Beta and provide specific feedback. Early start in an MMO, even if just for story things and leveling, just feels dirty because you're doubling and trippling down on the FOMO. First you end up feeling behind with levels, then you feel bad for maybe missing leveling with your friends if you wait, and THEN story spoilers or secret spoilers from your Guild Discord etc.
@@deeznuttes9340 Watching him here is such a deviation from the way he acts on his stream or other content. I appreciated that aspect and wanted to express it. Maybe insightful is a bit generous, but it's just a comment on RUclips.
@max literally the best thing you've ever said about people playing to tier list and then hating their game experience. I've always been one to enjoy tier lists but never slave to them because I am very aware of how I enjoy to play the game, almost to the point where I will go out of my way to play a "class" that is not perceived well. Well said!
Re: the poe accessibility question from max, where players might bounce off the game right away when seeing the depth of the character building stuff, Chris Wilson has said in interviews that from their philosophy that's not really a problem for them because they feel like players who find that daunting probably aren't going to enjoy PoE anyways eventually when they unfold more of that depth on them later. In some ways, it's like a sign post or bright colored pattern on a reptile that says this is not going to be simple. That's kind of different than WoW though, which tries to be the game that both really casual open world collecting players and mythic + cutting edge comp builders both play in.
Early access making the game available on the weekend instead of in the middle of the week is huge for people with a job. I always have to take 2 days off to play the expansion release but I much rather pay 30 euro extra (given that you get gametime the diff is essentially 30 euros) and play on the weekend instead of taking 2 vacation days
For me the original mage tower challenge was completing the Green Fire quest for Warlocks in MoP, I completed it in full Heart of Fear gear which was from the tier before the Green Fire quest came out and it was SO challenging but incredibly rewarding, one of my fondest memories in the game.
Dear max, I forgot who said it but I'm a 9 to 5 gamer dad now. Family is way more important then playing wow but I do raid log or play from time to time when before I was a hardcore mythic raider. I just can't compete with you or others who can play 24/7. I get maybe one hour a day n then my two night two hour raid guild. They parse gray or greens where I carry them but we still get aotc just maybe the week before the new patch. But those players DO exist. I think we had so much MORE fun this tier because everyone was geared to the teeth with the new upgrade system. We played alts and got maybe two or three alts aotc as well. But it's more of family n friends now rather then pushing the hardest content. I think thats who wow needs to cater towards, not the 1% players. That may hurt your enjoyment of the game but I think personally, the needs of the many are more important then the needs of a few. =)
Playing m+ does not automatically means that most of them loves m+. Mostly if you: - need gear, do m+, - want tp to instance, do m+, - want help catch up your friend, do m+, - want best trinket for raiding (often) do m+. I believe that there is more people that are forced to do m+ than those that likes them.
If I remember correctly, beta access was also a pre-order bonus for MoP CE so this isn't the first time blizz has bundled beta access into a deluxe or premium product as a "bonus".
I really hope at some point the "Brann" for Delves isn't a NPC at all, but one of the characters in your Warband. It would be so cool to do solo content but in a group with your own alts.
This may, big emphasis on may, open the way for some NPC dungeon group shenanigans like FF14's Trust system. Imagine being able to clear some story dungeons for the quests or whatever with NPCs.
I think the reason for staying away from this feature is because soon the community will min max it for best class combos, which will then make Alts nearly mandatory and they don't want to make alts an optimization thing like it is for games like Lost Ark where alts are necessary. If they keep it a generic npc, then a new player or someone who just enjoys one character, doesn't feel the need to level an alt, of possibly a class they don't enjoy, to stay competitive or efficient with the warbands feature.
Im pretty sure they won't give you alts as an option to follow you into delves instead of characters like Brann because it would lead to less personality in terms of voice lines, story telling. Just look at Call of Duty Zombies in Cold war they let you play operators you owned in multiplayer but that removed the dynamic from character interaction completely
content specific power (torghast progression) is better than borrowed power (artifact power etc) - that way it can stay in the game forever for people that want to experience that content. Couple that with applying timewalking rescaling to all previous expansions and you lessened the issue of insane wastefulness with content islands
I’m a former hardcore player (PvP and pve from tbc to mop) and I LOVE challenging solo activities that offer cosmetic rewards. I have every MT weapon outside of the healer ones, almost every MT set (don’t have the ones I don’t like) and I have stuff like green fire with the title and so on. It’s not that I am unable to perform well enough for hardcore content it’s just that I don’t have the time or energy to sit down, scour out a solid guild, get in, attend weekly raids and meetings and keep all that up to get a solid stable of players I know in order to conquer the end game hardcore content. I’d love to be doing mythic prog and pushing 25-30 keys but the amount of time needed for that doesn’t work with my life now as an adult so these difficult solo challenges are a way for me to get that thrill on my own time and have a reward that is an expression of my skill. I love doing TW on my Druid for example as I have every MT form, the MT set, the MT weapon for balance and I rock up in my maxed out BfA cloak and neck, and same on my Lock. Green fire, of the black harvest, using the red Affli MT staff with my MT set and I’ve got all the cool things you could earn solo over the last 16 years.
They've killed DoT specs for 4 expansions now, so I meannnnn, "let's get a rework" is actually something I want to hear, especially for Affliction Warlock. Also, another thing is they keep reworking Spriest and making it worse and worse, for the most part. They still can't entertain new capstone nodes or anything, when they need to replace the Mindbender and Echoing Void talent nodes as well as the Thing from Beyond 1, so all 3 capstones on the left should be reworked. Like for example with Spriest: how cool would it seriously be to have these as your capstones and node areas: On the far left replacing Mindbender node and Echoiing Void you have DoT nodes: far left you have "Your DoTs tick faster and deal more damage for every % of health the target has lost." So by the end of the target's HP, basically 0, you could have like 35% faster ticking speeds on all DoTs permanently. In the middle left right beside it you have: "DoTs now cleave onto all targets for X% of the damage. Does less/reduced damage beyond Y targets." Right, so you have an entire left side for DoTs aspect. The X and Y for that could be "your damage over time abilities cleave 30% of each tick onto all nearby targets. Damage reduced by 10% beyond 3 targets. Damage further reduced by an additional 10% beyond 5 targets." Right, like, this curbs the scaling of DoTs in mass, but it keeps your DoTs doing high damage and doing the majority of your damage, too. On the Thing from Beyond capstone area, instead of the Thing from Beyond spawning, they just literally rework it into a Shadowy Apparitions capstone node. So like: "You spawn double the amount of Shadowy Apparitions. Your Shadowy Apparitions now deal 50% of their damage to all nearby enemies of the main target." They increase the speed to which they run with a talent above it by 50/100% or just make it a single talent point for 100% faster travel speed, and then they buff the chance for DoTs to have a chance to spawn it to "15% chance per tick per Damage over Time" meaning all of your DoTs have a chance to spawn it. The last node, the tentacles one, we just lean more into hentai with it and just basically rework it into this: "Your damage has a high chance to spawn a tentacle. This tentacle will Mind Flay if you're in combat against 1 mob or Mind Seer against multiple mobs." Give it an active and a passive. If you let it stay passively, the spells have a high chance to spawn a tentacle, you can have up to 6 out at once. It also has a 60 second CD of spawning all 6 of them at the same time. Also to this effect too: make them spawn on the character, themselves. So they come out of your character's arm, legs, neck, back, like they just spawn off of you. As you move around, these things are STILL doing damage and channeling into the targets. They last 6-10 seconds, anywhere in that range, and they just blast into the target you're selected in that moment. How cool and awesome would any Spriest be to come into the game and see all of these capstones? You can have the right side be tied more towards non DoTs style, so spawning from your Mind Blast, your Mind Spike if you've got that talented, and stuff. Put Mind Spike in the middle of the tree to be easily accessible by either side of the tree. If you wanna play full DoTs with Mind Spike, you can. If you wanna be full DoTs with Mind Flay, you can. Mind Flay and Spike help spawn Shadowy Apparitions, along with DoTs and Mind Blast n stuff, like all damage from your own character's regular abilities, has a chance to do it. You can be a Machine Gun Shadowy Apparition Spriest or a DoT Spriest or a Tentacle Spriest, like cool stuff.
Max with the point the barrier of entry to an Alt easily being enough to where you just don't play at all is exactly why I'd rather game systems just flat out be easier. Faster I can make an Alt relevant the more I'm likely to play, period.
WOW needs to steal the weapon reward cosmetics for hardest version of each raid and give them an animation when certain buttons are hit. Make that the "woahh shi" that teir sets use to feel like and make heroic give bis. 90% of the people I know quit over the years because they felt like wow was turning into an esport game more than a mmo and they just have time to log in and play with the boys for 2hours a week.
53:53. I just want them to remember ro finish what actually won that survey in bfa, 95% IF you got the artifact appearances, you can earn a new "theme" appearance. IF you didn't earn them you get the originals. The tier recolor we got to do was tied at 0 percent with nothing new or earnable
I'm one of those casual dad gamer's that Dorki brought up. Super excited for delves as someone who has very little interest in M+ or Raiding over the past few years. It's really just a time thing between running a company and raising a Son, otherwise I probably would get back in Raiding. I do however love that the game has different types of people playing different types of content. Absolutely love watching and following the Raid scene with the World First race etc. What a great podcast this was, thanks fellas.
My biggest issues with trying to come back to this game is that I am overwhelmed with all the crap on my screen now. I log in and I have 65 yellow ! all over the main city. I have 12 "Campaign" quests to do. I have no idea what I should or shouldn't do. What is a waste of time and what isn't. Then on top of that Trade chat is just spammed with nothing but "selling" everything under the sun. I have tried coming back to the game a couple of times and can never find a Guild that isn't just a spam invite guild that does nothing. I don't have the gold to "buy" my way into content and I can't find a guild that isn't only recruiting people that have 6500 achievements I don't have and gear score that generally requires me to do more than LFR gear. The game doesn't feel friendly anymore and any sign of not knowing what you are doing gets you segregated from most of the community. At least that has been my experience. I miss the days of feeling like I was logging in for my Guild to hang out with friends and then go jump into some raids or pvp together. I haven't been able to find that and so I end up unsubbing again after a month or two.
Another thing that needs to be considered, especially for new players but its annoying for xp players as well, is the ability bloat. Yes, new abilities are fun but when you read a guide and the starting rotation suggestion is 22+ lines long... thats a bit much.
I think the game deserves another Suramar without a carrot at the end of a stick. A zones worth of solo pve content had me logging into the first few months of legion without a complaint.
The thing about solo playing MMo is the part where you play game at your own pace, yet meet other people doing the same, have this interaction, then carry on your own way. Sort of way of simulate real life situations. Sometimes you just have small chat and part ways, sometimes you will find connection and will do some stuff together.
As someone that plays in a casual Normal/Heroic Raid guild that hates pugging, I'm ecstatic for the Delve system because now I'll have something to do past just WQ stuff when I don't have many friends online. I dislike M+ above about +12, so this is perfect for me.
I remember doing Amalgamation reclear on mythic lvl. I had guy in my group who was raging that everyone needs Liquid wa to clear stacks in phase 2. When I told him that I do not need that specific wa because I clearly see it, he went into rage mode. The parts where wa couldn't help, people just went into braindead mode because nothing was telling them what to do.
Nothing feels worse than telling a friend that he can't raid with you anymore because he's just not that good at the game. It's something that happened in WOTLK with people i played with since 2019 ...
I could have swore before Dragonflight came out, in interviews people were like hey, any plans to add something like mage tower and they said they would like to add something like that. I’ve been waiting for it each patch of DF and nothing. Maybe if they have something in the bag to go with the fated season.
From what I understand those expansions are long in development, like right now they are making both The war withing and Midnight expansions, so something like MT will probably come just not in near future
They said they'd love to but they don't feel like they have a reward to match the challenge. Which is... a weird thing to say? Because if you put just about anything behind a hard challenge, as long as it's not literally dogshit, people will want it for the pride of showing off in an MMO that they did the hard thing.
5 months late but in a recent interview Delves will have an extra 3 tiers with no rewards (Except cosmetics/bragging rights), and once you finish those you unlock an extra delve with a very hard boss that apparently no one on their team was able to kill. This was from Naguura's interview recently, so they're adding it which is sick.
Massive exposure of how dependent world first guilds have become to custom weak auras made in real time on the fly. They private the mechanic they counter with a macro weak aura combo. It's become ads vs ad blockers
My biggest hope for Delves as a massive casual is that they are mechanically and tuned very hard at the beginning, but please, for the love god, DO NOT ADD A TIMER LIKE M+.
I think the #1 benefit that Delve's can bring is shorter end game content. WoW's #1 problem is their player base has aged solidly into mid-life players (Kids, Jobs, Spouses, etc.) M+ is a 30+ minute commitment, Raids are 2-3 hours multiple nights a week. If you have a life outside of WoW, end game is a massive commitment. There is no reason dungeons have to be 4 bosses and 20 minutes of trash, none, but that's what they are. I don't think players are against socially engaging, they are worried about having to abandon their team because RL happens. Hopefully delves give us meaningful content that you can walk away from without F'ing over 4 other people.
I feel like with the different versions of Classic coming out will make it so retail can hone in on what it wants to be and the different Classic options will give you what you want for playstyle depending on which era you play
I have 20+~ Toons, I Heroic/Myhic Raid/M+ on a lot of them. I look forward to Delves and it being easier to gear up the others. Will help to actually play them in higher content vs having to spend as much time in the lower green brackets. 10/10 Episode loved it.
I wanted to thank you for this great channel. The discussions, thoughts and information are very relevant and educational. It's nice to see different WoW creators from different backgrounds draw from their respective experiences and perspectives. The choice of topic was very exciting and I had a lot of fun listening! I'm looking forward to the next podcasts.
If you ask me, wow is back for sure. People underestimate how much of an impact Chris Metzen brings. I have a few friends that fell off after legion, and wow became an after thought for them, but since the announcement of him returning and leading these new expansions, they are more excited than ever to play again.
I would like the 'Hero Talents' to focus alot on aesthetics if possible. Like something to the effect of changing my warlocks fire to green. Stuff like that, plus 1 impactful ability like a covenant ability
They really missed their chance with Warrior hero class imo, Moutain Thane sounds like a lot like Muradin from WC3 (Mountain King was his class name), but Colossus and Slayer ? Why not blademaster ? Could have had a reduced cd on bladestorm, a build in 2nd hit mechanic (like windfurry), rework their defensive to be evasion like, a blade dance mechanic, etc.. Hunters "Packmaster" better be like Rexxar, alot of pets to help you in combat (could work for BM and Survival and if your survival you can now dual wield just like Rexxar). And yeah I agree DH one sounds kinda lame, wish one of them is more focused on the metamorphosis aspect of DH (think meta from warlock back in the days, when you went into that form, some spells would change or you would get new one for that form only). Evoker need a cool one too, like melee evoker ? or permanent visage form ? Because let's face it, only having your help and shoulder show up in Dragon form suck. Can't make a good transmog out of that.
I went and played classic and i just was pressing a button every 2 seconds at times i was falling asleep. Maybe once im higher level maybe ill be doing more but holy crap was i falling asleep with the lack of things i was doing. Like i do feel like there is too much in retail to do in action but at least leveling felt nice and i wasn't wanting to die after hours of grinding and getting no where. When i was younger and had endless amounts of time it was fine, but blowing 10 hours and only getting a certain amount of stuff done is just so bad.
I feel like Dratnos is way off base about his point around the 50 minute mark. Whether or not you liked the content is one thing - but they are putting out a lot of outdoor content. I don't think thats a really a result of "having to pay it forward" its just not resonating with you. I dont think that has anything to do with the cadence. Some of the events are pretty fun and 10.1 suffered from poor presentation of its new content.
When youu were talking about how theres players out there that dont get on twitch or reddit and are casual dads, i felt lile you were talking directly to me. Ive played wow since vanilla launch when i was 21 or 22 and used to run dungeons and pvp but domt have time for that now. I also work a weird schedule where i cant run raids in a guild. Im really happy about the delves and warband stuff because over the last 10 years or so i have been mostly levelimg alts solo and doing transmog runs. So all that said, i kinda feel like the war within expac is directed at players like me. Its hard to be a 20 year player that cant get really high level stuff without high level raiding. That said, wow has become so easy on a solo pve level that that kind of gear isnt required to complete solo pve content...which is another issue i have. Retail wow pve solo stuff is far too easy. I love retails qol stuff but hate how easy mode its gotten
Everything you guys talked about resonated so much....especially the gatekeeping discusion about WeakAuras...getting kicked from a H+++ in Wrath classic for not running WAs is the worst kind of gatekeeping players engage in
Button bloat is a real thing in the game. We really need to see something done about how many buttons some classes use. Edit - On dungeons I wish affixes were more about helping you do the dungeon faster instead of adding more obnoxious abilities to handle. With this they key is stacking the good buff and keeping it for as long as possible will help you hit the timer. If you mess up the mechanic too many times you won't make the timer because you don't keep the buff going, but completing the dungeon will be pretty easy it just won't be in time and you won't advance your key. Now people have to learn the mechanics to progress even at lower key levels.
three man scenarios had a lot of potential. those were fun. imagine if world bosses were like kazzak. wiping 100 man raid because mechs matter. it is so so weird they cant make a mage tower 2.0. torghast was such a waste. it also had so much potential. making difficult solo content is way better than making difficult world content because no one wants to have their success depending on baddies. i hope delves can somehow incorporate your alts to be in the group with you as AI.
Thorgast was fun, what was the problem? The criticism around it was ridiculous and came from people who just love to cry about stuff, no matter what. WoW is pretty fascinating in that regard. Where other games got the fanatic fancrowed who defend every shit with their teeth, WoW got the opposite a crowd of crybabies, who just love to piss on it, no matter how dumb they look themselves by not even being able to deliver actual criticism. And of course it's even dumber to be like that about something you hate. The fancrows are also not able to actually deliver criticism, but they at least seem to love it.
@@miriamweller812 my point was they didnt iterate on it and keep it relevant in the game as a game mode. it was a waste that they forced on us instead of making us want to do it because it was challenging and rewarding in a non power way...like the mage tower. the reason i didnt explicitly name it is because that was the point of much of the video if iirc. stuff they spent a bunch of dev time on that was good but then left to rot, to paraphrase
How to help solve M+: - Remove timer for ilvl reward, Keep timer for cosmetic reward (add cosmetic rewards) - Remove keys downgrading - only time your key goes down should be when you choose that - Lessen the amount of kicks but make kicks more important so bringing a thousand interrupts isn't mandatory anymore. (remove some amount of kicks from classes that have too many) - same goes for other mechanics... random packs shouldn't do 20 things. - Remove tyran/fort and do something more interesting like allowing players to opt into specific hardmodes for an extra chance at cosmetics honestly just more focus on cosmetics in general as well as making M+ more friendly for the majority of the playerbase and their classes (not necessarily easier. simplier =/= easier) would be good. I'm sure upper end players would cry about it but idk why blizzard should care much about them... also you could make hardmodes CRAZY for them and put in insane cosmetics so they don't get upset which I think would be cool. Idk, I don't think solving M+ or helping make it better is actually that hard...
ALSO - fated raids should just replace timewalking raids and should be ALL raids if they can manage that. let people do these old raids on multiple difficulties (never able to get the best gear but can get competitive gear). that'd be fucking awesome... you'd have raid groups doing all sorts of crazy raids from the ages that are scaled up. ICC, Firelands, Naxx, AQ, ToT, BT, Tomb of Sarg, Nathria, etc etc. that'd be amazing. Honestly doing challenge dungeons as like... timewalking+ would be very cool too. That's another way to push M+ to the side as a weird side competitive thing and let other people play anything they want and get good gear and have fun anywhere from WoW's history... both these ideas are a lot of work but would make the rest of the game relevant to basically all players rather than it being kinda trash outside leveling (even timewalking is a waste of time outside of the box reward, and lots of the time thats worth nothing either)
Regarding the question if "Will It Ever Get as good as Borrowed Power": I don't know about others, but i personally have pretty much never experienced the end of an expansion. So that super hype power spike where - as Max put it - everything comes together has never hapened for me. I always lost interest before that (around the x.2 patch) and judging from my guilds and the people i played with, i am not alone in this. So for a lot of people, there never was this hype moment... On the other hand, i really enjoyed the begining of Legion...for me Class Halls and Artifact Weapons were really thematic and fun and i loved that you were able to get more powerful just by playing more (and farming AP) than others. I hated the loss of those features in BFA though.
47:33 .3 patches should be a chance for them to take a breather since they're doing fated raids. they should be able to make stuff people have been asking for like housing/mage tower/more customization
Alt friendlyness is important imo. I have a third char to love to play, he is still in season 1 gear mostly besides like 1-2 items and the fun thing is that with this gear i still do more damage than the average s2 player, i litrally cleared +17s with this char at 389 gs actually. Its like the same as on my enhance.. season 1 set was way better than season 2, jet season 2 setbonus got nerfed to death. I hate such things ngl.
i logged into retail and easily leveled from 60-70 in a day and then had a bag full of things and a quest log of things i had no idea what to do with. there are so many systems and functions that do ABC XYZ thing and getting bombarded with all of it was exhausting enough to cause me to uninstall and not play again. i can only hope in the future that things are more straightforward and there are less hoops to jump through just to play the game at a basic level. i realize starting from the beginning allows things to progressively develop and you have time to take it in, but if you don't have that opportunity trying to decipher all the bloat is nearly impossible and almost certainly not worth it.
@@nilohermes6447 because it has been a common topic in the wow community for several years now. and as far as i know asmongold has been hating on LFR ever since its introduction to the game which makes him a great person to talk to about this. i think it could have been an interesting and enlightening discussion especially because max has stated multiple times that he would like to talk to someone about LFR and its pros and cons in wow.
THe thing about alts, is that it is another game entirely. It's rerolling to see it from a different perspective. Your main only helps to a minor degree at this point, which is a good thing. The content, the login time, the value of each tier of content would be drastically reduced. I feel that raid gear should not carry over, but other things I'd be down for, such as blues, boe epics, reputation, and what not
Maybe this is a hot take, I’m not sure, but I feel like for solo content they could really utilize mechanics from the rogue lite genre. I know they kinda did that with Shadowlands but it didn’t feel like it had a ton of thought into it but I still really enjoyed that content when my team wasn’t online or I didn’t have time to pug. I REALLY hope delves are a more fleshed out version of that kinda content. Make it challenging but also make it replayable. Edit: just got to 1:13:09 where they actually touch on this. Really agree, Dorki! I would have loved iteration on Torghast.
On the hero spec thing, I’d say that system would be 1000% better if they were cosmetic. Instead of a storm bolt for warrior maybe it’s a flaming hammer.
It already is part cosmetic. Like the warrior in the demo got lightning effects on abilities that don't have any. But yeah they could go crazier with it
I'm glad Dorki is getting a chance to record from their backyard. Cats need some exploration time
From their backyard? You mean his backyard? 😂😂😂
@@shaunybonny688 Dorki contains multitudes.
I’m pretty sure it’s asmons back yard
@@shaunybonny688 Take english lessons doofas
@@shaunybonny688are you triggered by a pronoun little snowflake? 😢
Re: the conversation about solo content and casuals, I think one of the issues with these discussions is players that want to play solo (often because of schedule and none of their friends being online) is a different kind of "casual" than someone who wants content where failure is impossible. I think the wow community has traditionally lumped these two demos together because the challenging content in the game has also always been grouped (and coordinated/scheduled content), but like dorki pointed out there is plenty of stuff out there like From games or games with more focus on solo queuing where the challenge is high but people don't hard commit to hour+ time blocks
You are 100% right
Yes to everything here. Some casual are casual by circumstance, work, life, family and kids and would play way more if they could. Giving them the option to play some hard solo content would go a long way.
@@jabeltre1so... legion tower
Mage tower was the perfect model for solo content imo
@@philosophicalthirstworms6645 No, they're just single boss fights and that's it. Horrific Visions were far more fun for me as it had progression and felt more strategic. The Mad World achievement was the most fun challenge I've ever had in the game. Torghast had the potential to be amazing if there were an infinite floors mode and more boss mechanics. Hopefully the new "Delves" will be good.
I think all the examples of good solo content that they gave like warlock green fire, brawler’s guild, withered army training, etc. are proof that blizzard could make delves great. If I walked into a delve and it was just the ending scenario of the warlock green fire quest at it’s original difficulty, that’d be great content. Just making more of those experiences and as repeatable content sounds great. If they nail it, it’ll be huge.
Yeah, I agree. I feel like there has been this pattern of them running experiments, having some early misfires, then tuning them to player taste by the end of the expansion, but then not incorporating the experiment into mainline WoW. It's like 75% of the PoE strategy but missing one of the most important parts. They seem to be changing their perspective on this, though, hopefully.
what a banger of an ep! I enjoyed seeing two people that have had disagreements explain the nuances of their arguments to eachother. I love all four of these creators so it was nice to see "mom and dad" getting along.
For some reason dratnos and Asmongold together is wild to me. GG
its like when your two friends from totally different friend groups are in the same room
yep, love it
because one has unhinged opinions that wouldn't work for retails playerbase and the other actually plays the game with more than 2 functioning braincells
@@deeznuttes9340 one stopped being addicted to a shit game and one has not you mean
they agreed with everything he said@@deeznuttes9340
A whole lot of this comment section is embarrassing. If you can't accept someone outside the small space of higher end PvE with very differing opinions about retail coming on and sharing his well-articulated views on the topics discussed (and might I add also being generally very happy about the outlook of WoW), you're the one being an idiot. It bears absolutely no importance for what's discussed here that Asmongold doesn't play retail very much. In fact, the whole point of the episode is getting the perspective of someone who used to put completely degenerate hours into endgame content, but who has been lost along the way.
I would love to see LFR turn into single-player story mode raid where you can see all of the story by yourself and get some light rewards, normal mode becomes the entry into group raids, and heroic is the pinnacle of gearing. Then Mythic can become a prestige mode where you get cosmetics that are unavailable to other players (titles, transmog, mounts, etc.).
They might be able to use the followers to give you NPC raid group
WoW has been back and trending in the right direction since season 3 of Shadowlands. Dragonflight is a good expansion regardless of what people who don't even play the game say.
I've played every patch of dragonflight and it's boring as fuck. Latest patch after 3 hours there is nothing to do.
@@Jankmasta so you walked around didnt find any content and said "theres nothing to do!!!!!!!!!!" and quit?
To the casual player it’s probably the best expansion of all time which is definitely a good thing but if you play it the way you would a typical expansion it very quickly becomes empty and to be honest quite souless
I play the game and its still the same boring nonsense that lacks any direction and has too many chores if you care about anything other than gear.
I will contest the notion that gear is less epic in FF cause you can target it. That is total nonsense.
The difference here is that in WoW often you don't get the item you want and you feel terrible. Eventually you might get the item you want or not and you feel relief. You can only feel great if you get the drop in your first or second run.
In FF you can target your gear. You are always happy at the end of the run cause you either made progress towards the item you want or you just completed it and you are excited you just got it.
One makes you feel bad more often than not, the other never makes you feel bad. What exactly is epic about disappointment? I never felt good for getting an item in WoW i felt relief the pain is over. In FF i feel enjoyment. I don't feel i wasted my time if i didn't get the item i wanted. It's not effin "epic". The only thing that would make the gear epic is to have a stupid OP effect in it, but then you will just feel worse for not having it.
Ok so random thought about torghast, what if they bring it back under the lore of sylvanas being condemned to the shadowlands until all the world tree souls are saved?
Like what if there's a short questline that just reiterates the reason she's there and you can volunteer to help sylvanas do an extra difficult run of torghast to save trapped souls left in the jailers citadel?
Give it some trandmog, pets, etc and that could be a solid way to keep it evergreen and make it hard
About the 'this button feels good to press in wrath vs in retail '
I play a bunch of classes in retail, and have multiple cutting edges. Id be slightly bored with singular important presses, whereas doing combustion with 2x lust in m+ or sub rogue burst windows feels insanely satisfying to the point wrath or many other expansions earlier on cannot compete. Even my healers doing a ramp pr proper setups hpala beacon of virtue into divine toll into dawnbreak, feels amazing. I get that each button individually might not feel as impactful, but they can play so good together I feel like that makes up for it
Account wide achievement progress for war bands is going to be so massive for me and probably many other players. I can’t be bothered to specifically farm “defuse 1000 bombs in IoC” on one character but I’ve certainly gained that between my 40 something max level characters I’ve carried between xpacs.
Can't wait for shared legacy reputations.
I want the tooltip to identify that your target is no a paladin, but a Templar. You know what i mean? Refer to the name of the "subclass"!
ooou this is kind of sick. would be a bit annoying in pvp though lol
1:53:04 on the gatekeeping topic, I'm making groups for BFD in SoD and people are messaging me their gear score. There are raid leaders asking people to meet in Darnasus for a gear inspection before they invite you. This is for a level 25 raid, ive grabbed the first people that message me every reset and we've full cleared with no problem. The gatekeeping is so OTT
1:50:22 Max's point about not having to do stuff others are doing, in his example was about using a weak aura.
The problem is WoW isn't a solo game.
You play with other people and as such, you have to live up to their expectations or otherwise, other people aren't going to play with you.
I remember one time I saw a world first mage from Limit wiping in Brawler's guild. He wiped 2x on Ahooru. That's solid solo content right there if world top players can wipe on it.
brawlers guild was seriously amazing.
Beta and Alpha access as pre-order rewards for the more expensive edition makes sense, as people that invested are more likely to log onto said Alpha and Beta and provide specific feedback. Early start in an MMO, even if just for story things and leveling, just feels dirty because you're doubling and trippling down on the FOMO. First you end up feeling behind with levels, then you feel bad for maybe missing leveling with your friends if you wait, and THEN story spoilers or secret spoilers from your Guild Discord etc.
All of this 1000%
It's so nice to listen to Asmon talk in these kinds of settings. He's insightful and super chill.
calling asmongold insightful is like calling Diogenes the greatest philosopher of the ancients after reading about him literally shit on the floor
@@deeznuttes9340 Watching him here is such a deviation from the way he acts on his stream or other content. I appreciated that aspect and wanted to express it. Maybe insightful is a bit generous, but it's just a comment on RUclips.
@@deeznuttes9340 when did he ban you in his chat? :) Did he say that retail was ass and you got mad?
@@deeznuttes9340 its ok, you will get over the ban and over yourself eventually. I heard 40s are great for self reflection
@@deeznuttes9340 Pretty rich coming from a guy named "deeznuts"
@max literally the best thing you've ever said about people playing to tier list and then hating their game experience. I've always been one to enjoy tier lists but never slave to them because I am very aware of how I enjoy to play the game, almost to the point where I will go out of my way to play a "class" that is not perceived well. Well said!
Re: the poe accessibility question from max, where players might bounce off the game right away when seeing the depth of the character building stuff, Chris Wilson has said in interviews that from their philosophy that's not really a problem for them because they feel like players who find that daunting probably aren't going to enjoy PoE anyways eventually when they unfold more of that depth on them later. In some ways, it's like a sign post or bright colored pattern on a reptile that says this is not going to be simple. That's kind of different than WoW though, which tries to be the game that both really casual open world collecting players and mythic + cutting edge comp builders both play in.
Early access making the game available on the weekend instead of in the middle of the week is huge for people with a job. I always have to take 2 days off to play the expansion release but I much rather pay 30 euro extra (given that you get gametime the diff is essentially 30 euros) and play on the weekend instead of taking 2 vacation days
For me the original mage tower challenge was completing the Green Fire quest for Warlocks in MoP, I completed it in full Heart of Fear gear which was from the tier before the Green Fire quest came out and it was SO challenging but incredibly rewarding, one of my fondest memories in the game.
Dear max, I forgot who said it but I'm a 9 to 5 gamer dad now. Family is way more important then playing wow but I do raid log or play from time to time when before I was a hardcore mythic raider. I just can't compete with you or others who can play 24/7. I get maybe one hour a day n then my two night two hour raid guild. They parse gray or greens where I carry them but we still get aotc just maybe the week before the new patch. But those players DO exist. I think we had so much MORE fun this tier because everyone was geared to the teeth with the new upgrade system. We played alts and got maybe two or three alts aotc as well. But it's more of family n friends now rather then pushing the hardest content. I think thats who wow needs to cater towards, not the 1% players. That may hurt your enjoyment of the game but I think personally, the needs of the many are more important then the needs of a few. =)
Playing m+ does not automatically means that most of them loves m+. Mostly if you: - need gear, do m+, - want tp to instance, do m+, - want help catch up your friend, do m+, - want best trinket for raiding (often) do m+. I believe that there is more people that are forced to do m+ than those that likes them.
Wish professions would go world wide instead of outdated areas holding onto old professions.
If I remember correctly, beta access was also a pre-order bonus for MoP CE so this isn't the first time blizz has bundled beta access into a deluxe or premium product as a "bonus".
I'm glad all of the good wow streamers are coming together finally and making content. Helps build the wow community more.
I really hope at some point the "Brann" for Delves isn't a NPC at all, but one of the characters in your Warband.
It would be so cool to do solo content but in a group with your own alts.
Hell yeah. Also lets you costumize it soooo much and do some hillarious things.
This may, big emphasis on may, open the way for some NPC dungeon group shenanigans like FF14's Trust system. Imagine being able to clear some story dungeons for the quests or whatever with NPCs.
I think the reason for staying away from this feature is because soon the community will min max it for best class combos, which will then make Alts nearly mandatory and they don't want to make alts an optimization thing like it is for games like Lost Ark where alts are necessary. If they keep it a generic npc, then a new player or someone who just enjoys one character, doesn't feel the need to level an alt, of possibly a class they don't enjoy, to stay competitive or efficient with the warbands feature.
Im pretty sure they won't give you alts as an option to follow you into delves instead of characters like Brann because it would lead to less personality in terms of voice lines, story telling. Just look at Call of Duty Zombies in Cold war they let you play operators you owned in multiplayer but that removed the dynamic from character interaction completely
That’s actually a great idea, that would be badass
content specific power (torghast progression) is better than borrowed power (artifact power etc) - that way it can stay in the game forever for people that want to experience that content. Couple that with applying timewalking rescaling to all previous expansions and you lessened the issue of insane wastefulness with content islands
Dat time stamp is so op
I’m a former hardcore player (PvP and pve from tbc to mop) and I LOVE challenging solo activities that offer cosmetic rewards. I have every MT weapon outside of the healer ones, almost every MT set (don’t have the ones I don’t like) and I have stuff like green fire with the title and so on. It’s not that I am unable to perform well enough for hardcore content it’s just that I don’t have the time or energy to sit down, scour out a solid guild, get in, attend weekly raids and meetings and keep all that up to get a solid stable of players I know in order to conquer the end game hardcore content. I’d love to be doing mythic prog and pushing 25-30 keys but the amount of time needed for that doesn’t work with my life now as an adult so these difficult solo challenges are a way for me to get that thrill on my own time and have a reward that is an expression of my skill.
I love doing TW on my Druid for example as I have every MT form, the MT set, the MT weapon for balance and I rock up in my maxed out BfA cloak and neck, and same on my Lock. Green fire, of the black harvest, using the red Affli MT staff with my MT set and I’ve got all the cool things you could earn solo over the last 16 years.
I appreciate that Asmond classed it up with that bathrobe.
They've killed DoT specs for 4 expansions now, so I meannnnn, "let's get a rework" is actually something I want to hear, especially for Affliction Warlock. Also, another thing is they keep reworking Spriest and making it worse and worse, for the most part. They still can't entertain new capstone nodes or anything, when they need to replace the Mindbender and Echoing Void talent nodes as well as the Thing from Beyond 1, so all 3 capstones on the left should be reworked.
Like for example with Spriest: how cool would it seriously be to have these as your capstones and node areas:
On the far left replacing Mindbender node and Echoiing Void you have DoT nodes: far left you have "Your DoTs tick faster and deal more damage for every % of health the target has lost." So by the end of the target's HP, basically 0, you could have like 35% faster ticking speeds on all DoTs permanently. In the middle left right beside it you have: "DoTs now cleave onto all targets for X% of the damage. Does less/reduced damage beyond Y targets." Right, so you have an entire left side for DoTs aspect. The X and Y for that could be "your damage over time abilities cleave 30% of each tick onto all nearby targets. Damage reduced by 10% beyond 3 targets. Damage further reduced by an additional 10% beyond 5 targets." Right, like, this curbs the scaling of DoTs in mass, but it keeps your DoTs doing high damage and doing the majority of your damage, too.
On the Thing from Beyond capstone area, instead of the Thing from Beyond spawning, they just literally rework it into a Shadowy Apparitions capstone node. So like: "You spawn double the amount of Shadowy Apparitions. Your Shadowy Apparitions now deal 50% of their damage to all nearby enemies of the main target." They increase the speed to which they run with a talent above it by 50/100% or just make it a single talent point for 100% faster travel speed, and then they buff the chance for DoTs to have a chance to spawn it to "15% chance per tick per Damage over Time" meaning all of your DoTs have a chance to spawn it.
The last node, the tentacles one, we just lean more into hentai with it and just basically rework it into this: "Your damage has a high chance to spawn a tentacle. This tentacle will Mind Flay if you're in combat against 1 mob or Mind Seer against multiple mobs." Give it an active and a passive. If you let it stay passively, the spells have a high chance to spawn a tentacle, you can have up to 6 out at once. It also has a 60 second CD of spawning all 6 of them at the same time. Also to this effect too: make them spawn on the character, themselves. So they come out of your character's arm, legs, neck, back, like they just spawn off of you. As you move around, these things are STILL doing damage and channeling into the targets. They last 6-10 seconds, anywhere in that range, and they just blast into the target you're selected in that moment.
How cool and awesome would any Spriest be to come into the game and see all of these capstones? You can have the right side be tied more towards non DoTs style, so spawning from your Mind Blast, your Mind Spike if you've got that talented, and stuff. Put Mind Spike in the middle of the tree to be easily accessible by either side of the tree. If you wanna play full DoTs with Mind Spike, you can. If you wanna be full DoTs with Mind Flay, you can. Mind Flay and Spike help spawn Shadowy Apparitions, along with DoTs and Mind Blast n stuff, like all damage from your own character's regular abilities, has a chance to do it. You can be a Machine Gun Shadowy Apparition Spriest or a DoT Spriest or a Tentacle Spriest, like cool stuff.
the fact that Asmon fully substituted the word "when" with "whenever" in his vocabulary is so funny to me
Love listening to these podcasts while doing homework. It is keeping me sane in college.
Max with the point the barrier of entry to an Alt easily being enough to where you just don't play at all is exactly why I'd rather game systems just flat out be easier. Faster I can make an Alt relevant the more I'm likely to play, period.
WOW needs to steal the weapon reward cosmetics for hardest version of each raid and give them an animation when certain buttons are hit. Make that the "woahh shi" that teir sets use to feel like and make heroic give bis.
90% of the people I know quit over the years because they felt like wow was turning into an esport game more than a mmo and they just have time to log in and play with the boys for 2hours a week.
I love how Dratnos reacts to what people are saying in such a physical way without saying anything lmao
Thanks, now I can't unsee it 😂
Asmon was a banger guest! gg
53:53. I just want them to remember ro finish what actually won that survey in bfa, 95% IF you got the artifact appearances, you can earn a new "theme" appearance. IF you didn't earn them you get the originals. The tier recolor we got to do was tied at 0 percent with nothing new or earnable
Perfect time for this to come out. Listening to it while I farm my rep for my permanent augment rune. 👍
I didn't realize it was permanent, persists through death and doesn't drop off?
@@hankthemiltanktv1306 No it doesn't persist through death. It is just an item that lets you reapply the buff as many times as you want.
sweet, thanks!@@ethandespres6492
I'm one of those casual dad gamer's that Dorki brought up. Super excited for delves as someone who has very little interest in M+ or Raiding over the past few years. It's really just a time thing between running a company and raising a Son, otherwise I probably would get back in Raiding. I do however love that the game has different types of people playing different types of content. Absolutely love watching and following the Raid scene with the World First race etc. What a great podcast this was, thanks fellas.
This is a great conversation. More please
My biggest issues with trying to come back to this game is that I am overwhelmed with all the crap on my screen now. I log in and I have 65 yellow ! all over the main city. I have 12 "Campaign" quests to do. I have no idea what I should or shouldn't do. What is a waste of time and what isn't. Then on top of that Trade chat is just spammed with nothing but "selling" everything under the sun. I have tried coming back to the game a couple of times and can never find a Guild that isn't just a spam invite guild that does nothing.
I don't have the gold to "buy" my way into content and I can't find a guild that isn't only recruiting people that have 6500 achievements I don't have and gear score that generally requires me to do more than LFR gear. The game doesn't feel friendly anymore and any sign of not knowing what you are doing gets you segregated from most of the community. At least that has been my experience. I miss the days of feeling like I was logging in for my Guild to hang out with friends and then go jump into some raids or pvp together. I haven't been able to find that and so I end up unsubbing again after a month or two.
Another thing that needs to be considered, especially for new players but its annoying for xp players as well, is the ability bloat. Yes, new abilities are fun but when you read a guide and the starting rotation suggestion is 22+ lines long... thats a bit much.
Why'd you cut dorki out of the thumbnail
the cat is really hard to fit in there (and has very little facial expressions)
I think the game deserves another Suramar without a carrot at the end of a stick. A zones worth of solo pve content had me logging into the first few months of legion without a complaint.
The thing about solo playing MMo is the part where you play game at your own pace, yet meet other people doing the same, have this interaction, then carry on your own way. Sort of way of simulate real life situations. Sometimes you just have small chat and part ways, sometimes you will find connection and will do some stuff together.
Asmon was great in this, was nice to see him in an environment that isn't his stream chat. Loved the work guys...keep it up!
As someone that plays in a casual Normal/Heroic Raid guild that hates pugging, I'm ecstatic for the Delve system because now I'll have something to do past just WQ stuff when I don't have many friends online. I dislike M+ above about +12, so this is perfect for me.
I remember doing Amalgamation reclear on mythic lvl. I had guy in my group who was raging that everyone needs Liquid wa to clear stacks in phase 2. When I told him that I do not need that specific wa because I clearly see it, he went into rage mode. The parts where wa couldn't help, people just went into braindead mode because nothing was telling them what to do.
What's liquid WA?
is that asmongold's backyard, Dorki? :L
yeah, thought that too xD
Only weak aura I really use, is to track my rage, shield block duration left, and ignore pain duration/amount left
Blizzard. Bring. Back. Class. Order. Halls. Imagine the stories you could write. I beg you!
We have the king of m+, the king of raiding, the king of soothing dulcet barry white talking, and the king of sameshirt
Great podcast-crew! Enjoyed it a lot, thanks for your insights / statements
The think Aldrachi Reaver for DH is the best name because I’m sure not many people know who the Aldrachi are in Warcraft lore
Nothing feels worse than telling a friend that he can't raid with you anymore because he's just not that good at the game. It's something that happened in WOTLK with people i played with since 2019 ...
Just a great episode. I really love the very composed vibes of this podcast and the total absence of doom & gloom stuff.
mostly because anytime asmon tried to start doomer shit they shut him down
I could have swore before Dragonflight came out, in interviews people were like hey, any plans to add something like mage tower and they said they would like to add something like that. I’ve been waiting for it each patch of DF and nothing. Maybe if they have something in the bag to go with the fated season.
From what I understand those expansions are long in development, like right now they are making both The war withing and Midnight expansions, so something like MT will probably come just not in near future
They said they'd love to but they don't feel like they have a reward to match the challenge. Which is... a weird thing to say? Because if you put just about anything behind a hard challenge, as long as it's not literally dogshit, people will want it for the pride of showing off in an MMO that they did the hard thing.
5 months late but in a recent interview Delves will have an extra 3 tiers with no rewards (Except cosmetics/bragging rights), and once you finish those you unlock an extra delve with a very hard boss that apparently no one on their team was able to kill. This was from Naguura's interview recently, so they're adding it which is sick.
Sounds like someone on the WoW team has been playing SW:TOR, it has had the best quality of life improvements of any MMO right now.
Massive exposure of how dependent world first guilds have become to custom weak auras made in real time on the fly.
They private the mechanic they counter with a macro weak aura combo. It's become ads vs ad blockers
My biggest hope for Delves as a massive casual is that they are mechanically and tuned very hard at the beginning, but please, for the love god, DO NOT ADD A TIMER LIKE M+.
I think if the sub classes were more "skins" for your class abilities, it would work out more easily than trying to balance them.
I think the #1 benefit that Delve's can bring is shorter end game content. WoW's #1 problem is their player base has aged solidly into mid-life players (Kids, Jobs, Spouses, etc.) M+ is a 30+ minute commitment, Raids are 2-3 hours multiple nights a week. If you have a life outside of WoW, end game is a massive commitment. There is no reason dungeons have to be 4 bosses and 20 minutes of trash, none, but that's what they are. I don't think players are against socially engaging, they are worried about having to abandon their team because RL happens. Hopefully delves give us meaningful content that you can walk away from without F'ing over 4 other people.
I feel like with the different versions of Classic coming out will make it so retail can hone in on what it wants to be and the different Classic options will give you what you want for playstyle depending on which era you play
I have 20+~ Toons, I Heroic/Myhic Raid/M+ on a lot of them. I look forward to Delves and it being easier to gear up the others. Will help to actually play them in higher content vs having to spend as much time in the lower green brackets.
10/10 Episode loved it.
I only use 2 alts and I look forward to delves too, if I can gear them in raid loot without having to go through pug hell I'm all for it
I wanted to thank you for this great channel. The discussions, thoughts and information are very relevant and educational. It's nice to see different WoW creators from different backgrounds draw from their respective experiences and perspectives. The choice of topic was very exciting and I had a lot of fun listening! I'm looking forward to the next podcasts.
If you ask me, wow is back for sure. People underestimate how much of an impact Chris Metzen brings. I have a few friends that fell off after legion, and wow became an after thought for them, but since the announcement of him returning and leading these new expansions, they are more excited than ever to play again.
I would like the 'Hero Talents' to focus alot on aesthetics if possible. Like something to the effect of changing my warlocks fire to green. Stuff like that, plus 1 impactful ability like a covenant ability
I think there will be. I think during the warrior demo, his other talents had more blue lightning fx: ruclips.net/video/tMDQzaRsVqc/видео.html
Yep the warrior they showed us had lightning effects on abilities without lightning so it does do that
They really missed their chance with Warrior hero class imo, Moutain Thane sounds like a lot like Muradin from WC3 (Mountain King was his class name), but Colossus and Slayer ? Why not blademaster ? Could have had a reduced cd on bladestorm, a build in 2nd hit mechanic (like windfurry), rework their defensive to be evasion like, a blade dance mechanic, etc..
Hunters "Packmaster" better be like Rexxar, alot of pets to help you in combat (could work for BM and Survival and if your survival you can now dual wield just like Rexxar).
And yeah I agree DH one sounds kinda lame, wish one of them is more focused on the metamorphosis aspect of DH (think meta from warlock back in the days, when you went into that form, some spells would change or you would get new one for that form only).
Evoker need a cool one too, like melee evoker ? or permanent visage form ? Because let's face it, only having your help and shoulder show up in Dragon form suck. Can't make a good transmog out of that.
I went and played classic and i just was pressing a button every 2 seconds at times i was falling asleep. Maybe once im higher level maybe ill be doing more but holy crap was i falling asleep with the lack of things i was doing. Like i do feel like there is too much in retail to do in action but at least leveling felt nice and i wasn't wanting to die after hours of grinding and getting no where. When i was younger and had endless amounts of time it was fine, but blowing 10 hours and only getting a certain amount of stuff done is just so bad.
I feel like Dratnos is way off base about his point around the 50 minute mark. Whether or not you liked the content is one thing - but they are putting out a lot of outdoor content. I don't think thats a really a result of "having to pay it forward" its just not resonating with you. I dont think that has anything to do with the cadence. Some of the events are pretty fun and 10.1 suffered from poor presentation of its new content.
When youu were talking about how theres players out there that dont get on twitch or reddit and are casual dads, i felt lile you were talking directly to me. Ive played wow since vanilla launch when i was 21 or 22 and used to run dungeons and pvp but domt have time for that now. I also work a weird schedule where i cant run raids in a guild. Im really happy about the delves and warband stuff because over the last 10 years or so i have been mostly levelimg alts solo and doing transmog runs. So all that said, i kinda feel like the war within expac is directed at players like me. Its hard to be a 20 year player that cant get really high level stuff without high level raiding. That said, wow has become so easy on a solo pve level that that kind of gear isnt required to complete solo pve content...which is another issue i have. Retail wow pve solo stuff is far too easy. I love retails qol stuff but hate how easy mode its gotten
Everything you guys talked about resonated so much....especially the gatekeeping discusion about WeakAuras...getting kicked from a H+++ in Wrath classic for not running WAs is the worst kind of gatekeeping players engage in
Button bloat is a real thing in the game. We really need to see something done about how many buttons some classes use.
Edit - On dungeons I wish affixes were more about helping you do the dungeon faster instead of adding more obnoxious abilities to handle. With this they key is stacking the good buff and keeping it for as long as possible will help you hit the timer. If you mess up the mechanic too many times you won't make the timer because you don't keep the buff going, but completing the dungeon will be pretty easy it just won't be in time and you won't advance your key. Now people have to learn the mechanics to progress even at lower key levels.
No. I like my buttons.
three man scenarios had a lot of potential. those were fun. imagine if world bosses were like kazzak. wiping 100 man raid because mechs matter. it is so so weird they cant make a mage tower 2.0. torghast was such a waste. it also had so much potential. making difficult solo content is way better than making difficult world content because no one wants to have their success depending on baddies. i hope delves can somehow incorporate your alts to be in the group with you as AI.
Thorgast was fun, what was the problem?
The criticism around it was ridiculous and came from people who just love to cry about stuff, no matter what.
WoW is pretty fascinating in that regard. Where other games got the fanatic fancrowed who defend every shit with their teeth, WoW got the opposite a crowd of crybabies, who just love to piss on it, no matter how dumb they look themselves by not even being able to deliver actual criticism. And of course it's even dumber to be like that about something you hate.
The fancrows are also not able to actually deliver criticism, but they at least seem to love it.
@@miriamweller812 my point was they didnt iterate on it and keep it relevant in the game as a game mode. it was a waste that they forced on us instead of making us want to do it because it was challenging and rewarding in a non power way...like the mage tower. the reason i didnt explicitly name it is because that was the point of much of the video if iirc. stuff they spent a bunch of dev time on that was good but then left to rot, to paraphrase
How to help solve M+:
- Remove timer for ilvl reward, Keep timer for cosmetic reward (add cosmetic rewards)
- Remove keys downgrading - only time your key goes down should be when you choose that
- Lessen the amount of kicks but make kicks more important so bringing a thousand interrupts isn't mandatory anymore. (remove some amount of kicks from classes that have too many) - same goes for other mechanics... random packs shouldn't do 20 things.
- Remove tyran/fort and do something more interesting like allowing players to opt into specific hardmodes for an extra chance at cosmetics
honestly just more focus on cosmetics in general as well as making M+ more friendly for the majority of the playerbase and their classes (not necessarily easier. simplier =/= easier) would be good. I'm sure upper end players would cry about it but idk why blizzard should care much about them... also you could make hardmodes CRAZY for them and put in insane cosmetics so they don't get upset which I think would be cool.
Idk, I don't think solving M+ or helping make it better is actually that hard...
ALSO - fated raids should just replace timewalking raids and should be ALL raids if they can manage that. let people do these old raids on multiple difficulties (never able to get the best gear but can get competitive gear). that'd be fucking awesome... you'd have raid groups doing all sorts of crazy raids from the ages that are scaled up. ICC, Firelands, Naxx, AQ, ToT, BT, Tomb of Sarg, Nathria, etc etc. that'd be amazing.
Honestly doing challenge dungeons as like... timewalking+ would be very cool too. That's another way to push M+ to the side as a weird side competitive thing and let other people play anything they want and get good gear and have fun anywhere from WoW's history... both these ideas are a lot of work but would make the rest of the game relevant to basically all players rather than it being kinda trash outside leveling (even timewalking is a waste of time outside of the box reward, and lots of the time thats worth nothing either)
Regarding the question if "Will It Ever Get as good as Borrowed Power":
I don't know about others, but i personally have pretty much never experienced the end of an expansion. So that super hype power spike where - as Max put it - everything comes together has never hapened for me. I always lost interest before that (around the x.2 patch) and judging from my guilds and the people i played with, i am not alone in this. So for a lot of people, there never was this hype moment...
On the other hand, i really enjoyed the begining of Legion...for me Class Halls and Artifact Weapons were really thematic and fun and i loved that you were able to get more powerful just by playing more (and farming AP) than others. I hated the loss of those features in BFA though.
47:33 .3 patches should be a chance for them to take a breather since they're doing fated raids. they should be able to make stuff people have been asking for like housing/mage tower/more customization
If all gear is shared by your characters everyone rolls on all drops 😢
Yeah, nobody thought about this. Maybe make legacy loot account wide while keeping current raids character specific? Idk the answer to that actually.
Love that they kept of the bit of everyone on the show maining tanks classes.
On sludgefist remarks... Apparently you didn't play ranged on mythic version of that fight... It was 100% an RNG obstacle course.
A very succulent episode 🌵
Alt friendlyness is important imo. I have a third char to love to play, he is still in season 1 gear mostly besides like 1-2 items and the fun thing is that with this gear i still do more damage than the average s2 player, i litrally cleared +17s with this char at 389 gs actually. Its like the same as on my enhance.. season 1 set was way better than season 2, jet season 2 setbonus got nerfed to death. I hate such things ngl.
First of all, love Dratnos' way of say exacTly - but great nuanced convo. Better than expected given the guest rep
Dog stretch in background was best part
felt that the retail reveal was very underwhelming, but then again I dont think the game can ever pull me back in again
i logged into retail and easily leveled from 60-70 in a day and then had a bag full of things and a quest log of things i had no idea what to do with. there are so many systems and functions that do ABC XYZ thing and getting bombarded with all of it was exhausting enough to cause me to uninstall and not play again. i can only hope in the future that things are more straightforward and there are less hoops to jump through just to play the game at a basic level.
i realize starting from the beginning allows things to progressively develop and you have time to take it in, but if you don't have that opportunity trying to decipher all the bloat is nearly impossible and almost certainly not worth it.
Looked it up and Hero talents are Ever green.
Hot take, and Im not a huge fan generally, but Asmon being the representative Casual/Semi-Casual voice was really good for the discussion.
I'm just happy Metzen didn't decide to start a Cult because that dude could be the next Tyler Durden and form his own religion xD
you forgot to ask asmon why LFR needs to be removed immediately
How is removing content for a lot of players even a point of discussion? Just silly.
@@nilohermes6447 because it has been a common topic in the wow community for several years now. and as far as i know asmongold has been hating on LFR ever since its introduction to the game which makes him a great person to talk to about this. i think it could have been an interesting and enlightening discussion especially because max has stated multiple times that he would like to talk to someone about LFR and its pros and cons in wow.
RWF no add on would be so entertaining to watch.
THe thing about alts, is that it is another game entirely. It's rerolling to see it from a different perspective. Your main only helps to a minor degree at this point, which is a good thing. The content, the login time, the value of each tier of content would be drastically reduced. I feel that raid gear should not carry over, but other things I'd be down for, such as blues, boe epics, reputation, and what not
Maybe this is a hot take, I’m not sure, but I feel like for solo content they could really utilize mechanics from the rogue lite genre. I know they kinda did that with Shadowlands but it didn’t feel like it had a ton of thought into it but I still really enjoyed that content when my team wasn’t online or I didn’t have time to pug. I REALLY hope delves are a more fleshed out version of that kinda content. Make it challenging but also make it replayable.
Edit: just got to 1:13:09 where they actually touch on this. Really agree, Dorki! I would have loved iteration on Torghast.
I am 34 years old, this will be my first year playing wow. Played games my whole life. They can't make games like they used to.
Wow is back baby! I am for sure! 1st time back since BFA.
On the hero spec thing, I’d say that system would be 1000% better if they were cosmetic. Instead of a storm bolt for warrior maybe it’s a flaming hammer.
It already is part cosmetic. Like the warrior in the demo got lightning effects on abilities that don't have any. But yeah they could go crazier with it
Yes I would love to see cosmetic effects for abilities that is definitely the way they should go
But then they would Just be glyphs but named differently, right?
@35:25 dratnos should ask demo warlocks how they feel about their rework