It was Jack Kirby's art that got a very depressed 8 year old kid through one of the roughest periods of his life, and kept him inspired to draw and dream. Thank you, Jack.
(7 years ago) I'm the guy who donated this tape to the Kirby Museum. Just so you all know, it wasn't Robert Knight - who, tragically, passed away this past year - who was the annoying one with the verbal diarrhea, but Warren Reece, who was well-meaning, I'm sure, but the epitome of the word 'fanboy'. (Although I suppose we should all thank him for this historic piece of audio, because he apparently set up the interview). Robert Knight was a BRILLIANT serious investigative reporter, winner of a Polk award for journalistic excellence. (I highly advise you all to Google him.) His show “ Earthwatch" was primarily an "ecological/cosmic science" program which ran on NYC's WBAI for many years. And it was excellent. This was an uncharacteristic lark for him, a chance to meet one of his idols, (on his 70th birthday no less). He will be greatly missed.
(Apologies to all the commenters whose responses were lost when I changed the name of my channel to 'Joseph' from 'J.J.' My original comment disappeared, and with it all responses.)
Mr Kirby is the grandfather to all pop culture. He brought myths of old back into the mainstream and with his unmatched art work gave them a new voice. "The New Gods" by Kirby is genuinely my favourite comic series of all time. So much action, drama, tragedy that makes it feel like a modern myth. Rest in peace Jack Kirby, we all love you
Jack and Stan certainly made lasting and eternal Marvel Comics Magic. What lovely gentlemen, both. Rest In Peace and Thank You to Jack "King" Kirby and Stan (the Man) Lee.
Apparently, Stan found it disrespectful that Jack Kirby called him 'Stanley'. Apparently Jack called him that since he was an assistant with him and Joe Simon.
He called him that, because that’s his name. Stanley Leiber. He called him that, because he was calling him out “I knew you before you were famous” I’m sure that was name he met him under.
I'm not sure if Jack appreciated Stan sticking around and plugging his new world pictures deal. God knows I wouldn't. This was his day and all Stan had to do was just say happy birthday and then takeoff. But no, he stuck around and there was an eventual disagreement as to who did what. I can see how Joanne saw I need to protect her husband from being exploited by Stan
Sure Stan, you just happened to tune in your radio that day.... and just wanted to wish Jack a happy birthday.... AND THEN STAY ON THE CALL AND MONOPOLIZE THE CONVERSATION!
Just found. Give a listen to decades ago. Same back and forth rules being applied from the host to his special guest, really giving him creative topics to expand upon extensively. Love
I honestly think that argument was not as bad as some in the comments are making it out to be. Colleagues, especially in the creative world, have differences of opinion on how things should be handled and that leads to conflict sometimes. I think the two guys really did like each other however.
32:31 - I would say this solves the mystery once and for all. Kirby either wrote or collaborated on most or all of the plots, drew the story, added *his own* dialogue, which Stan Lee either modified or ignored. I believe John Romita Sr. said in a Jack Kirby doc that Kirby didn't read the stories after he finished drawing them. So, as Stan points out, Jack would have actually never known!
Absolutely, he took part in inventing every story, and most likely came up with most of it. Then took that and drew the whole story, adding in text/dialogue here and there. Stan would do the writing and either modify/remove. I feel like overall Kirby put more into creating the product, and stan focused on hyping it up and selling it. If anything he really hindered Kirby In not letting him write and draw his own work. Almost like Stan wanted to ride the wave as Long as he could knowing kirby was really doing the heavy lifting, and not receiving his due credit. It’s sad.
@@Clay3613 by basic plotline it could be REALLY basic, as in just a vague idea. Stan even admits that at some point he was just saying "maybe this happens" or not even anything at all! He was getting paid for a variety of roles, one of which was a page rate for his "writing" though it seems even that was scripted or at least storied by artists like Kirby at times.
There was a Marvel radio show Lee was on in the late 60's. I think Kirby may have appeared on that. You'd have to find them in public radio archives tho. Even then Not sure if Kirby ever appeared on it, he doesn't seem like the type of person interested in that kind of thing.
What a wonderful dialogue for fandom! Particularly evident is that Stan Lee is without a doubt the more verbal of the two (Kirby himself could only agree in the very interview), which lends near certain credence to Lee's imput as a writer. On the other hand, Lee admitted that he only added the words AFTER the pictures were done, settling (for me at least) which came first, and just who was the most creative.
The Marvel style has always been to add the words after the pictures were done. But the dispute here seems to be in who came up with the plots. The host says there were group meetings to devise the plots but Kirby claims they didn't occur when he was there. Given that Kirby also claims he created Spider-Man in this interview, which has been proven false, unless you count a rejected costume design, anything Kirby claims here is highly dubious. Doubly so considering that he had already started legal battles with Marvel at this time and it was in his financial interest to claim as much credit as he could for everything.
Max Schmid: "We consider today... or the general thought is that comicbooks are for children" :-P Well this was a 1987 interview and books like Watchmen, Maus, The Dark Knight Returns, Raw, and other such works were only just starting to come out at this time and comics were still fighting an uphill battle for even grudging respectability at this time in the late 1980s
Certainly though without 'Stan the Man' and the way he acted as the spokesman for Marvel to the general public from 1960 onward the comicbook industry would be a very different place.
He really helped refine Jack's ideas, you can tell who did the writing for many books...just look at Kirby's later works compared to what he did with Lee.
Clay3613 You can also tell that Jack did the plotting on his books with Stan especially from Jack’s plotting notes on his original art and when Stan would give a synopsis for FF #48 “Let’s have the Fantastic Four fight God!” and Jack would come up with a concept like Galactus and The Silver Surfer, as to his later works although different than what he did with Stan I love quite a bit of his Fourth Word Saga such as “The Death Wish of Terrible Turpin” among some of his later works.
Cont But still Schmid really overlooks the fact that during WW2 servicemen were reading comics and that there were comics most definately being marketed to adults at this time Lev Gleason's 'Crime Does Not Pay' Will Eisner's 'The Spirit' not to mention the EC line of comics which would be coming a decade later. Plus the fact that the Simon & Kirby studio were putting out comics for adults by the late 1940's 'Young Love' 'Justice Traps the Guilty' 'Black Magic' 'Foxhole', shortsighted Mr S
Boy, Max Schmid is tough to take; so many of his questions should have been asked face-to-face with art samples in hand. He makes so many pointed, specific questions to material which is clearly not in the forefront of Kirby's memories. On the plus side, now I know Kirby sounded like James Cagney. I wasn't expecting that.
Having just been made aware of the existance of this recording, thought to be lost, let me say in my defense that I am only heard asking a single question (at 3:30) in this surviving segment! And it's quite incisive! The rest is all Robert Knight and Warren Reece!
@ShogunZIlla, @RichYan33, nothing upsets a fan more than another fan, or Robin/Wesley Crusher, 'being there'. Did the person(s) SZ wanted 'kicked in the nuts', actually make this interview possible? Back in the 'Dark Days' of the industry, he would have been omitted credit here, and entirely, in the principle scene in Kirkman's first episode documentary. Besides the enthusiastic fan/pro's informative questions, I mostly hear Jack speaking. While I love the Kirby at War DVD, now on sale w/Pure Imagination, Greg Theakston's questions were omitted, in general, most fans/pros would prefer to hear a more subdued or 'background' type to have a more understated style.
@@TheCinemaniac When they worked together, Stan wasn't as much of a public figure, and thought he had a future career as a novelist, so he didn't go by his real name, hence why he took to wearing glasses at conventions without needing them. It's why he used the pseudonym Stan Lee when he went by Stanley in real life, and he didn't tell people who met him in real life he worked in comics out of shame, until the Stan Lee persona became a hit in public.
I wasn't putting Stan down and praising Uncle Walt, merely pointing out that Disney was an amateur at the art of self promotion compared to Stan Lee, as was P.T. Barnum.
I believe John Romita Sr. explained this by saying that Jack never read the comics after he was finished drawing them. So, he is correct in saying he did write the *story*, but he wasn't aware of Stan's changes in his dialogue.
+ComicBookSyndicate you're changing and reading into the point. Kirby said Stan Lee didn't write dialogue. Not just that he didn't care what happened to the story after he plotted and drew the story. He said Stan had ghost writers, very different than what you are saying. And also Kirby came up with most of the stories, but that description in the pencils was not dialogue. We've read Kirby's dialogue, for Marvel and DC and it's not as what's was in the FF or Thor. So Stan did not argue plotting, he corrected Kirby saying all of the dialogue was Stan's.
Kirby made that accusation in the Comics Journal? Okay, I haven't read that interview. I'm a life long Kirby loyalist, but I believe what Stan is saying here.
This was a wonderful interview to listen. It's unfortunate that Robert Knight asked lousy questions. As if any of his radio listeners care about 1940's Captain America # 7 cover. What a waste. It was his birthday too.
The interviewer talked to much and tried to impress everybody with his own knowledge rather than let JACK shine. His voice was really annoying, too. Very fake.
I think it's interesting to hear Stan accuse Jack of not reading the books they've produced. There is no doubt in my mind that Jack had a huge influence on, and even contributed to, the dialogue in those books. Why is it that Fantastic Four & Thor are phenomenally better than Spider-Man, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Avengers, etc.? It's because of Jack Kirby. Despite some of the cheesy dialogue that was a sign of its time, Fantastic Four is so much more well written than any other Marvel book, and Thor at its peak (generally the issues that dealt with Hercules and other mythological figures) was much better than the other Marvel books, excluding FF. It's a shame Kirby didn't get credit from the man he helped make.
I always preferred reading Spider-man in the late 60s over FF, Iron Man, Dr Strange or Avengers. You just love Kirby. He was great with incredible ideas, but never did a favorite book for me as much as I liked Spider-man.
I think what would happen is stan would come up with an idea of a character or plot. Present it to his artists and say make this. The artist would draw ideas for which stan would approve of the artwork. Then hed come up with a vague plot and give his artist the freedom to come up with basic story, in which stan would put the finishing touches. I dont think there is one definitive creator, which is why they bickered so much about it in the end. Kirby was suing tor creative rights at the end to try to get royalites for his family.
Stan: "Make the FF fight a God who eats planets." Kirby creates the plot, story details, characters and artwork. turns it in. Stan: "Who's this surfboard guy?" Stan collects a paycheck for "scripting," hogs all the credit, becomes Rich & Famous.
@@philippuhlman9736 "Have them fight God" is a famous Stan Lee quote (probably exaggerated) that's been passed down as Marvel Lore. "In 1968, the magazine Castle of Frankenstein #12 published a Stan Lee interview in which he stated: Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I’ll just say to Jack, “Let’s let the next villain be Dr. Doom”… or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s so good at plots, I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing… I may tell him that he’s gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I’ll give him a plot, but we’re practically both the writers on the things. In interviews such as this, it seems that when Stan says “writing” he means adding the dialogue to the finished art; but when Jack Kirby says “writing” he means deciding what happens from panel to panel, and adding notes in the margins as needed."
@@philippuhlman9736 It's just LITERAL, since this is what STAN HIMSELF actually said. He also said Kirby brought him Ego the Living Planet, etc. The Fantastic Four stories bear a resemblance in plots from Kirby's 50s Challengers of the Unknown stories. Study before you speak.
33:47 if that were true, Stan, then you would have asked Jack to be on board for the first silver surfer comic series. He created that character and you took control of it and didn't even have the respect to ask him to be the regular artist on the character that he created for you. There is no cocreator here. The silver surfer was his baby and you stole it. I don't like to speak ill of the dead and God knows you're probably up there duking it out over this still to this day, but I'm on Jack's side on this. This was supposed to be his interview and Jack's interview alone and you couldn't even let him have that ticket you could've just called him afterwards and shoot the gap, as my grandfather used to say. But no, I had to be on the air, I spotlights that you just had to horn in on knowing that the DJ would encourage a discussion that would lead to dirty laundry. You call that respect?
Jack Kirby didn’t respect Stan with all his past accusations that with further observation have now come into question objectively so if you ask me it’s all fair game for Stan to step into this interview and put him to the test. Jack accused Stan of adding nothing to the creative process of stories & characters which 💯 percent fundamentally false, he insulted him in various way of comics with a skewed perspective of history but when faced with a back and forth conversation he folds. Jack doesn’t even have much of a refute to not reading the comics after Stan’s writing and editing just stating he believed the action mattered more which further proves what’s actually true this was a creative process partnership between artists who have disagreements about how much they all contributed for Jack to accuse Stan of doing nothing isn’t just further from the truth but it has no poisoned the well in the fandom and has caused fans who have biases of their personal favorite artists and co creators to be completely divided. Stan & Jack showed each other “respect” when they both wanted to, other times they didn’t due to their disagreements. If you ask me this is all fair game.
@@bendu8282 Stan regularly said he was the sole creator of these characters, making up bullshit stories and even robbing Steve Ditko of the fact he created Doctor Strange after admitting it in writing. No one says Stan did nothing, only Jack when he was jusitfiably disgruntled at his exploitation. Stan was ultimately an editor, not a writer, and his own words betray him in that fact. He famously said he'd go to Jack and say "I want Fantastic Four to fight someone called Doctor Doom this issue" and get the first draft and art and plot from Jack. Any changes he made then are just as an editor would change comics afterwards. He also definitely didn't have Jack's imagination, as shown by the fact he specialised in romance comics, hence why he was better at dialogue.
And then the one host starts speechifying over the two once the conversation gets really interesting. Does he not realize them fighting would've made amazing radio?
I love Jack Kirby, why is Jack Kirby taking credit for Spider-man. Why are they dismissing Stan and Ditko. I'm shocked. Kirby and Ditko were great. Why wasn't their post Stan Lee work just as great. It wasn't.
+Eric McRay Let me preface this by saying I believe Kirby is perhaps the greatest talent to grace superhero comics. Whether you're talking about ideas or images, Kirby is peerless. He is criminally underappreciated or just plain criminally unknown outside of comics. But Jack Kirby was not Marvel Comics and he did not create Spider-Man. Spider-Man does not fit Kirby's solo canon at all while he fits Stan Lee's like a glove. Now what glove is that? The hero with a curse/hero with a vulnerability. Thor: the god with the disabled alter ego (turns into disabled Don Blake if his hammer if he's not in contact with his hammer for more than 60 seconds). Daredevil: the superhero who can't see. Dr. Strange: the sorcerer with a tremor. Iron Man: the hero with a heart condition (pierced by shrapnel - he needed his armor to live, not just be Iron Man). The Thing: the pilot who gained unbelievable strength but became a monster in the process. Ditto for the Hulk, who you could also characterize as the genius who became an idiot when his powers manifested. But the flaws weren't always physical/internal. You also had the X-Men, the teens who saved the world on a regular basis while the world either knew nothing of them or feared and hated them. And in that same vein, we also have Spider-Man. The hero his city thinks is a menace. The hero who's secretly a nerdy, unpopular, and bullied kid. The hero with a guilt complex the size of Manhattan. The hero who's a born loser. Charlie Brown with powers. Can I add two exceptions that prove the rule? The Silver Surfer and the Watcher, both created by Kirby (I think the Watcher is Kirby's). But their origins were written by Stan Lee after the fact. The Silver Surfer gained the power cosmic and the joy(?) of soaring the spaceways and saving his home planet, but the curse was he could never see Zenn-La (his homeworld) or Shalla Bal (his love) ever again. Stan Lee and John Buscema. The Watcher is a being with seemingly infinite knowledge and power, but an oath keeps him from directly using either to help "lesser" beings. Stan Lee and Gene Colan. Some people might not like Stan Lee, but that's no reason for denigrating his genius. We can celebrate Jack Kirby without tearing down Stan Lee.
+ZedsDeadAgain Jack didn't design Spider-Man. His design wasn't used. Kirby said his proof that he designed Spider-Man was that he drew the cover, but Stan rejected Ditko's original and Ditko inked the cover to keep the design consistent. Jack's Spider-man was similar to the Fly, which was it was rejected.
Here's the only fact. We wouldn't have shit if the 2 didnt' get together. Kirby is just jealous because Lee was able to market himself better then Kirby was. You want to see why dialogue is so impoprtant, why speach is as much of importancy as illustrating, Lee weath. His talking in the comics as well as outside is the reason most people think of Stan Lee before the Kirby or of Kirby at all. Rating which tile, be it FF or Thor, Spider-man or Dr. Stange. Shit, that's all in opinion. That's preference. We've all read titles that KNOW were geneous. Kibry just pissed he didn't get the recogognition he thought, and did deserve. I guarantee that if he was getting the same dollar amount in his pocket that Lee got you wouldn't have this debate, you wouldn't hear a peep from Kirby and the creative process would have been just the same. That was the whole thing. It was all about the fucking dollar. Here's a fact. Kirby doesn't get a dollar anytime a Darkseid figure sells. Is his estate going to get a thing after they show his ultra DC baddy Darkseid in the Justice League movies. Plus, I got to see his name. The guy who worked years with both Lee and Kirby both and said Lee deserves all the credit he gets and peopl are just Lee bashing. Was it fifty on the creative parts of the each character or story. No, but how much part did Kirby take in the presenting to the public and the marketing and advertising of the books and characters. None. that was all Lee. A good example of how popular Kirby characters would have been without Lee, Lee was the one that pulled Captain America out an ice block. He pulled Kirby's dead character and put him in the Avengers. Kirby has never denied that fact and how times have we heard Stan Lee say how the Avengers were missing something. That was his idea and for it. Captain America never went away again. The 4th world stories didn't get any popular until they started putting those charaters into the mainstream and Superman got involved. Why, his dialogue was horrible. Brian Bendis and Mark Millar. Two writers that I see so much love/hate critiques. Mosty about to much dialogue in an issue for a Bendis book and personally, but it's only my opinion, I love the dialogue because backs story doesn't have to be action. Well, all his titles sell and they sell well. If they didn't, he wouldn't be doing 4 or five titles. at one time. Other Lee, I don't remember anyone doing more then one title as a write ever. Bendis and Millar. Both masters of the dialogue. regardless. I just know we wouldn't have this wonderful medium, this great escape, the visual and spoken art that we have at level it is at now if not for having both of these guys together at one point. no way.
@@bendu8282 I've read a LOT about Kirby. Wondering if he got fucked. He might have. Here and there. But he bitched and complained after the fact. But here's the thing. Kirby grew up ROUGH. HE FIST FOUGHT. A lot. I relate to this and him. Where he was from what he went thru. Him from New York, me from Chicago. But all the $hit about where he was from, what he went thru. Fight on ROOF TOPS. Let me tell you something right now. His day and age? No internet? No camera's? No social media, press blah blah blah. I'm only 47 but if I was getting screwed by someone like he says he was, being the person he says he was and grew up as? That doesn't happen. Violence fixes problems, and hanging Stan Lee out a window in the 50's, 60's, or 70's and yelling "Where's MY TOY MONEY MUTHER FUCKTER!!!?" Was a VERY REAL thing that would have happened. In NEW YORK AND CHICAGO.... But also....JUSTIFIABLE. So why didn't the inner SUPER HERO jump out of KIRBY and grab a hold of Stan? I call B.S.. On Kirby's part. Just because I cuz I know how things would have really happened. ALSO. How many decades Didi he put up with it till he jumped ship? Kirby was due the respect. His name on everything. But his complaints are out of jealousy cuz he put up with long enough to be call be called to long. He got jealous. But don't blame Stan cuz Stan could market himself well.
Dialogue is important, and Stan made a great contribution. But Jim Shooter doesn't claim he created Elektra because he edited Frank Miller's dialogue for the comic she first appeared in.
Sheesh. The interviewer is annoying as hell. It was interesting to hear them actually arguing about the things fans have been arguing about constantly in decades since. I was surprised that Lee insisted, with Jack right on the line with him, that he really did write everything in FF. Seems like he sincerely believed it. And it is quite possible that Jack never did see a finished copy of the stories. If Stan is lying, he's lying to himself as much as anybody else. That said, at the end of the day, the fact is that even if that's true, all Stan was really doing was re-writing the dialogue Jack had already penciled in. The characters were his, the stories were his, he added his own dialogue. I mean, I'm sorry, but the Silver Surfer and Galactus are clearly Kirby characters, and the entire FF is based on characters Jack had done years before. Arguably, Stan amounted to little more than a glorified editor, at least on that book. I suppose we'll never really know for sure, but it may be that neither party is actually lying at all.
Very well said ! Even Stan Lee admitted in many interviews that he said this to Kirby: "Hey Jack, let's let the Fantastic Four fight against GOD ! " The response of Jack Kirby to that vague idea was the creation of Galactus, Silver Surfer, the complete story and the artwork. Stan Lee also admitted that when he got the completed artwork he called Jack and asked him: " Hey Jack, who is this guy on a surf board ? " Later in the credits: Writer: Stan Lee Art: Jack Kirby Me: LOL !
@@todpolk way too many former employees at marvel during that era have attested to Stan as being very involved in the creative writing of these characters, while it seems that those who disagree can’t even agree on who created what between themselves (Ditko vs Kirby)
@@todpolk Steranko was also much younger than Jack and Steve and not established but Stan gave him a job in an industry he wanted to be in desperately. Of course he's going to defend him compared to the people who knew better at the time.
It's difficult to surmise just how much of the history has been dictated by a guy that speaks a million miles an hour, not always truthfully. Stan was running to get coffee for guys like Jack and Joe Simon before happening into many positions he wasnt trained for whatsoever. He had a knack for what he was good at though, and that helped sell the comics, but unfortunately the downside of that is he concocted some of the history into his favor, perhaps more than he deserved. Hes specifically good at taking credit for things and I find people like that often arent concerned with the fact that their collaborator is the one doing the lion's share of the work. It's a machiavellian kind of morality to operate that way, casually excepting credit for others' efforts. Stan was an ace at that, whether you defend him or not hes joked about how hes happy to take credit for things if no one else will. Stan was groomed into a company man by Goodman and by never giving full credit to the artists and horning in his own version of the truth at times it hurt the creatives in the long run. Stan benefitted from this tremendously, it must be said, as has Marvel. Long after the fact more credit was given, mostly as a courtesy, not legally or financially mind you. And even that was mostly bc people would call them out for not having Ditko's name credited when they do a Spider Man movie or something. It would be bad press for them so sure theyll tag his name there after the damage is decades done. Marvel was all too happy to have the version of events being that Stan the Company Man was the creative force behind all their blockbuster characters, because they could sign off their success to one man they did incredible favors for and who would toe the company line as a consequence. And of course, bc it capitalized most on the work of all these artists in a tidy fashion. The 10% they owe to Stan was a much easier price to pay than the cut the artists actually deserve, which wouldve been much more. Marvel's merry, but Jack's not jolly and Steve's not smiling and you can understand why. Even in this interview you hear Jack say something to the effect of "so you can see how it was..." after that verbal spar with Stan about how he was giving Stan the stories and dialogue ideas as well. Dominant personalities win out in tbose situations and you can see how one of Stan's "shy" artists, by his own estimation, could be steamrolled by him in the eleventh hour when all the fancying up and finishing touches were done, and his name was being signed loud and proud above Kirby's. People who like to take credit seem to always be the hardest workers suddenly when 90% of something is done and they can wrap it up, put their name on it and present it largely as their own.
Here are the facts, Stan Lee is not a creative person and never has been. Stan Lee has one talent and that is marketing, self promotion and taking credit for things he didn't really do. Stan Lee only got the job at Timely because he cousin was a big shot there and got him the job, he had no credit work to him before this while Kirby had a slew of characters and a huge body of work. When they got together and made various Marvel characters they were either rehashed Kirby characters from years before or they took other existing comic characters and stole them. Once Kirby left the work Lee did was completely awful and he never created a worthwhile thing, unlike Kirby who gave us the New Gods, the Eternals, and a bunch of other stuff. Stan Lee is the biggest credit thief on the planet and all these comic fans worship him like he is an amazing man.....if amazing is riding someone else's creative coat tails while contributing almost nothing then he is AMAZING. Screw Stan Lee.
+1980Triumph Bullshit. Yes, Lee is a hell of a showman/pitchman - and that's the very thing that put Marvel on the map. But he's also a hell of a writer, and you seem to forget that he wrote pretty much every comic to come out of Marvel in the early to mid 60s.
wrlord You don't know history, Stan Lee is a great self promoter and claimed many things he did not do. The comics he wrote were never good or regarded highly, the stories by others are what sold the characters. You need don't know what you are talking about Stan Lee is a co man.
Lee even got into trouble taking credit for Captain America, a character he had ZERO to do with. An old Cap is just another Marvel rip off of a comic character that existed years before.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
It was Jack Kirby's art that got a very depressed 8 year old kid through one of the roughest periods of his life, and kept him inspired to draw and dream. Thank you, Jack.
(7 years ago)
I'm the guy who donated this tape to the Kirby Museum. Just so you all know, it wasn't Robert Knight - who, tragically, passed away this past year - who was the annoying one with the verbal diarrhea, but Warren Reece, who was well-meaning, I'm sure, but the epitome of the word 'fanboy'. (Although I suppose we should all thank him for this historic piece of audio, because he apparently set up the interview).
Robert Knight was a BRILLIANT serious investigative reporter, winner of a Polk award for journalistic excellence. (I highly advise you all to Google him.) His show “ Earthwatch" was primarily an "ecological/cosmic science" program which ran on NYC's WBAI for many years. And it was excellent. This was an uncharacteristic lark for him, a chance to meet one of his idols, (on his 70th birthday no less).
He will be greatly missed.
(Apologies to all the commenters whose responses were lost when I changed the name of my channel to 'Joseph' from 'J.J.' My original comment disappeared, and with it all responses.)
Kirby seems pretty humble and agreeable.
Wow, I didn't even know a public conversation between Lee & Kirby regarding their collaboration even existed! Another priceless document.
Mr Kirby is the grandfather to all pop culture. He brought myths of old back into the mainstream and with his unmatched art work gave them a new voice. "The New Gods" by Kirby is genuinely my favourite comic series of all time. So much action, drama, tragedy that makes it feel like a modern myth. Rest in peace Jack Kirby, we all love you
It's really sad to hear these two arguing. I never realized how deep the divide between the two was, definitely deeper than Lee and Ditko.
I read about this in Marvel Comics The Untold Story and I’m really glad that I could listen to it
Such a great book. Highly recommended it
Jack and Stan certainly made lasting and eternal Marvel Comics Magic. What lovely gentlemen, both. Rest In Peace and Thank You to Jack "King" Kirby and Stan (the Man) Lee.
18:45 Stan Lee vs Kirby
This needed to be upvoted to the top
Amazing little time capsule.
Kirby is The King, Stan is The Man.
It's good to be The King.
Thank you for posting this.
Apparently, Stan found it disrespectful that Jack Kirby called him 'Stanley'. Apparently Jack called him that since he was an assistant with him and Joe Simon.
He called him that, because that’s his name. Stanley Leiber. He called him that, because he was calling him out “I knew you before you were famous” I’m sure that was name he met him under.
he specifically knew stanley when he was a doting assistant, refilling his inkwell and fetching cigars back in the timely days
I'm not sure if Jack appreciated Stan sticking around and plugging his new world pictures deal. God knows I wouldn't. This was his day and all Stan had to do was just say happy birthday and then takeoff. But no, he stuck around and there was an eventual disagreement as to who did what. I can see how Joanne saw I need to protect her husband from being exploited by Stan
@@gerudokupo2225 get your shine box.
Sure Stan, you just happened to tune in your radio that day....
and just wanted to wish Jack a happy birthday....
AND THEN STAY ON THE CALL AND MONOPOLIZE THE CONVERSATION!
Hahahaha I almost spat out my tea reading that comment lol
That's funky flashman to you
Just found. Give a listen to decades ago. Same back and forth rules being applied from the host to his special guest, really giving him creative topics to expand upon extensively. Love
stan lee made marvel fun. i wonder what ditko thought about jack creating spiderman and not him.
Thanks so much for posting this!
Why did they ambush Jack with Stan calling in. Sheesh.
At least we have them both on the record now.
I can hear Stan can have a rather phony but "professional" kind of tone. Even slightly pushy, Jack seems very warm and passive.
I was listening to this earlier today and ambush was what I thought too.
because it's good radio dummy
I honestly think that argument was not as bad as some in the comments are making it out to be. Colleagues, especially in the creative world, have differences of opinion on how things should be handled and that leads to conflict sometimes. I think the two guys really did like each other however.
32:31 - I would say this solves the mystery once and for all. Kirby either wrote or collaborated on most or all of the plots, drew the story, added *his own* dialogue, which Stan Lee either modified or ignored.
I believe John Romita Sr. said in a Jack Kirby doc that Kirby didn't read the stories after he finished drawing them.
So, as Stan points out, Jack would have actually never known!
I love them both. But what I would love more is how did you make the words "his own", in your comment, Bold ??
Absolutely, he took part in inventing every story, and most likely came up with most of it.
Then took that and drew the whole story, adding in text/dialogue here and there. Stan would do the writing and either modify/remove.
I feel like overall Kirby put more into creating the product, and stan focused on hyping it up and selling it. If anything he really hindered Kirby In not letting him write and draw his own work. Almost like Stan wanted to ride the wave as
Long as he could knowing kirby was really doing the heavy lifting, and not receiving his due credit. It’s sad.
@@bcaffiene94 Stan gave his artists a basic plot outline and would later fill in the dialogue.
@@Clay3613 by basic plotline it could be REALLY basic, as in just a vague idea. Stan even admits that at some point he was just saying "maybe this happens" or not even anything at all! He was getting paid for a variety of roles, one of which was a page rate for his "writing" though it seems even that was scripted or at least storied by artists like Kirby at times.
Awesome... Funky Flashman and all..!
Is this the only recording we have of Stan and Jack talking?
There was a Marvel radio show Lee was on in the late 60's. I think Kirby may have appeared on that. You'd have to find them in public radio archives tho. Even then Not sure if Kirby ever appeared on it, he doesn't seem like the type of person interested in that kind of thing.
What a wonderful dialogue for fandom! Particularly evident is that Stan Lee is without a doubt the more verbal of the two (Kirby himself could only agree in the very interview), which lends near certain credence to Lee's imput as a writer. On the other hand, Lee admitted that he only added the words AFTER the pictures were done, settling (for me at least) which came first, and just who was the most creative.
The Marvel style has always been to add the words after the pictures were done. But the dispute here seems to be in who came up with the plots. The host says there were group meetings to devise the plots but Kirby claims they didn't occur when he was there. Given that Kirby also claims he created Spider-Man in this interview, which has been proven false, unless you count a rejected costume design, anything Kirby claims here is highly dubious. Doubly so considering that he had already started legal battles with Marvel at this time and it was in his financial interest to claim as much credit as he could for everything.
Damn! Shit got tense
Max Schmid: "We consider today... or the general thought is that comicbooks are for children" :-P
Well this was a 1987 interview and books like Watchmen, Maus, The Dark Knight Returns, Raw, and other such works were only just starting to come out at this time and comics were still fighting an uphill battle for even grudging respectability at this time in the late 1980s
Stan with the backhanded compliment starting at 19:45. Stan, you're messed up
Stan w/a Watchmen shout out!
Certainly though without 'Stan the Man' and the way he acted as the spokesman for Marvel to the general public from 1960 onward the comicbook industry would be a very different place.
He really helped refine Jack's ideas, you can tell who did the writing for many books...just look at Kirby's later works compared to what he did with Lee.
Clay3613 You can also tell that Jack did the plotting on his books with Stan especially from Jack’s plotting notes on his original art and when Stan would give a synopsis for FF #48 “Let’s have the Fantastic Four fight God!” and Jack would come up with a concept like Galactus and The Silver Surfer, as to his later works although different than what he did with Stan I love quite a bit of his Fourth Word Saga such as “The Death Wish of Terrible Turpin” among some of his later works.
Even in this Jack Kirby interview Stan Lee had to call to steal the spotlight as always.
Cont
But still Schmid really overlooks the fact that during WW2 servicemen were reading comics and that there were comics most definately being marketed to adults at this time
Lev Gleason's 'Crime Does Not Pay' Will Eisner's 'The Spirit'
not to mention the EC line of comics which would be coming a decade later.
Plus the fact that the Simon & Kirby studio were putting out comics for adults by the late 1940's 'Young Love' 'Justice Traps the Guilty' 'Black Magic' 'Foxhole', shortsighted Mr S
Rip, King .
Boy, Max Schmid is tough to take; so many of his questions should have been asked face-to-face with art samples in hand. He makes so many pointed, specific questions to material which is clearly not in the forefront of Kirby's memories.
On the plus side, now I know Kirby sounded like James Cagney. I wasn't expecting that.
Having just been made aware of the existance of this recording, thought to be lost, let me say in my defense that I am only heard asking a single question (at 3:30) in this surviving segment! And it's quite incisive! The rest is all Robert Knight and Warren Reece!
@ShogunZIlla, @RichYan33, nothing upsets a fan more than another fan, or Robin/Wesley Crusher, 'being there'. Did the person(s) SZ wanted 'kicked in the nuts', actually make this interview possible? Back in the 'Dark Days' of the industry, he would have been omitted credit here, and entirely, in the principle scene in Kirkman's first episode documentary. Besides the enthusiastic fan/pro's informative questions, I mostly hear Jack speaking. While I love the Kirby at War DVD, now on sale w/Pure Imagination, Greg Theakston's questions were omitted, in general, most fans/pros would prefer to hear a more subdued or 'background' type to have a more understated style.
Did Jack say Stan Lee as Stanley?
+Jonah Oh, guess that's his full name, lol. Thought he was just being a weirdo.
+Jonah Yup, he sure did. Probably a force of habit from back in the day when Stan Lee still went by Stanley Lieber.
Stanley Lieber was Stan Lee’s real name.
Well Stanley is his name.
@@TheCinemaniac When they worked together, Stan wasn't as much of a public figure, and thought he had a future career as a novelist, so he didn't go by his real name, hence why he took to wearing glasses at conventions without needing them. It's why he used the pseudonym Stan Lee when he went by Stanley in real life, and he didn't tell people who met him in real life he worked in comics out of shame, until the Stan Lee persona became a hit in public.
Why is that big mouth getting in the way? Are we hear to listen to him or Stan and Jack?
I wasn't putting Stan down and praising Uncle Walt, merely pointing out that Disney was an amateur at the art of self promotion compared to Stan Lee, as was P.T. Barnum.
In the Comics Journal, Kirby said Stan didn't write anything, no dialogue, so Kirby had to be called out by somebody.
I believe John Romita Sr. explained this by saying that Jack never read the comics after he was finished drawing them. So, he is correct in saying he did write the *story*, but he wasn't aware of Stan's changes in his dialogue.
+ComicBookSyndicate you're changing and reading into the point. Kirby said Stan Lee didn't write dialogue. Not just that he didn't care what happened to the story after he plotted and drew the story. He said Stan had ghost writers, very different than what you are saying. And also Kirby came up with most of the stories, but that description in the pencils was not dialogue. We've read Kirby's dialogue, for Marvel and DC and it's not as what's was in the FF or Thor. So Stan did not argue plotting, he corrected Kirby saying all of the dialogue was Stan's.
Kirby made that accusation in the Comics Journal? Okay, I haven't read that interview.
I'm a life long Kirby loyalist, but I believe what Stan is saying here.
That interview was so distorted and full of spite by a man in his declining years.
???? SJT MASSIVE. Uh, you got it backwards ....someone needed to call out stan lee for taking all the credit and money for Jack's work
22:40 still better then Disney
This was a wonderful interview to listen. It's unfortunate that Robert Knight asked lousy questions. As if any of his radio listeners care about 1940's Captain America # 7 cover. What a waste. It was his birthday too.
The interviewer talked to much and tried to impress everybody with his own knowledge rather than let JACK shine. His voice was really annoying, too. Very fake.
🔥💙🔥
uploaded 1 day before my bday
I think it's interesting to hear Stan accuse Jack of not reading the books they've produced. There is no doubt in my mind that Jack had a huge influence on, and even contributed to, the dialogue in those books. Why is it that Fantastic Four & Thor are phenomenally better than Spider-Man, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Avengers, etc.? It's because of Jack Kirby. Despite some of the cheesy dialogue that was a sign of its time, Fantastic Four is so much more well written than any other Marvel book, and Thor at its peak (generally the issues that dealt with Hercules and other mythological figures) was much better than the other Marvel books, excluding FF. It's a shame Kirby didn't get credit from the man he helped make.
I always preferred reading Spider-man in the late 60s over FF, Iron Man, Dr Strange or Avengers. You just love Kirby. He was great with incredible ideas, but never did a favorite book for me as much as I liked Spider-man.
Yeah same… spider man and the xmen were miles ahead of F4 and Thor… Thor has always been so boring imo
ThoR was incredible when Simonson took hold of it, and Stan set the stage for all that. .
Stan makes Uncle Walt Disney look like a piker as far as promoting and selling himself goes, not really a condemnation just a fact.
I think what would happen is stan would come up with an idea of a character or plot. Present it to his artists and say make this. The artist would draw ideas for which stan would approve of the artwork. Then hed come up with a vague plot and give his artist the freedom to come up with basic story, in which stan would put the finishing touches. I dont think there is one definitive creator, which is why they bickered so much about it in the end. Kirby was suing tor creative rights at the end to try to get royalites for his family.
Stan: "Make the FF fight a God who eats planets." Kirby creates the plot, story details, characters and artwork. turns it in. Stan: "Who's this surfboard guy?"
Stan collects a paycheck for "scripting," hogs all the credit, becomes Rich & Famous.
@@chuckleezodiac24 Just because you say it that way doesn't mean that's how it actually went down. That's just speculative.
@@philippuhlman9736 "Have them fight God" is a famous Stan Lee quote (probably exaggerated) that's been passed down as Marvel Lore.
"In 1968, the magazine Castle of Frankenstein #12 published a Stan Lee interview in which he stated:
Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I’ll just say to Jack, “Let’s let the next villain be Dr. Doom”… or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s so good at plots, I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing… I may tell him that he’s gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I’ll give him a plot, but we’re practically both the writers on the things.
In interviews such as this, it seems that when Stan says “writing” he means adding the dialogue to the finished art; but when Jack Kirby says “writing” he means deciding what happens from panel to panel, and adding notes in the margins as needed."
@@philippuhlman9736 It's just LITERAL, since this is what STAN HIMSELF actually said. He also said Kirby brought him Ego the Living Planet, etc. The Fantastic Four stories bear a resemblance in plots from Kirby's 50s Challengers of the Unknown stories. Study before you speak.
Can someone kick Robert Knight or whoever that host was in in the nuts? Thanks.
33:47 if that were true, Stan, then you would have asked Jack to be on board for the first silver surfer comic series. He created that character and you took control of it and didn't even have the respect to ask him to be the regular artist on the character that he created for you. There is no cocreator here. The silver surfer was his baby and you stole it. I don't like to speak ill of the dead and God knows you're probably up there duking it out over this still to this day, but I'm on Jack's side on this. This was supposed to be his interview and Jack's interview alone and you couldn't even let him have that ticket you could've just called him afterwards and shoot the gap, as my grandfather used to say. But no, I had to be on the air, I spotlights that you just had to horn in on knowing that the DJ would encourage a discussion that would lead to dirty laundry. You call that respect?
Jack Kirby didn’t respect Stan with all his past accusations that with further observation have now come into question objectively so if you ask me it’s all fair game for Stan to step into this interview and put him to the test. Jack accused Stan of adding nothing to the creative process of stories & characters which 💯 percent fundamentally false, he insulted him in various way of comics with a skewed perspective of history but when faced with a back and forth conversation he folds. Jack doesn’t even have much of a refute to not reading the comics after Stan’s writing and editing just stating he believed the action mattered more which further proves what’s actually true this was a creative process partnership between artists who have disagreements about how much they all contributed for Jack to accuse Stan of doing nothing isn’t just further from the truth but it has no poisoned the well in the fandom and has caused fans who have biases of their personal favorite artists and co creators to be completely divided.
Stan & Jack showed each other “respect” when they both wanted to, other times they didn’t due to their disagreements. If you ask me this is all fair game.
@@bendu8282 Stan regularly said he was the sole creator of these characters, making up bullshit stories and even robbing Steve Ditko of the fact he created Doctor Strange after admitting it in writing. No one says Stan did nothing, only Jack when he was jusitfiably disgruntled at his exploitation. Stan was ultimately an editor, not a writer, and his own words betray him in that fact. He famously said he'd go to Jack and say "I want Fantastic Four to fight someone called Doctor Doom this issue" and get the first draft and art and plot from Jack. Any changes he made then are just as an editor would change comics afterwards. He also definitely didn't have Jack's imagination, as shown by the fact he specialised in romance comics, hence why he was better at dialogue.
The host fumbled this opportunity by asking too many useless questions about DC
And then the one host starts speechifying over the two once the conversation gets really interesting. Does he not realize them fighting would've made amazing radio?
I love Jack Kirby, why is Jack Kirby taking credit for Spider-man. Why are they dismissing Stan and Ditko. I'm shocked. Kirby and Ditko were great. Why wasn't their post Stan Lee work just as great. It wasn't.
+Eric McRay New Gods were pretty cool.
+Eric McRay
Let me preface this by saying I believe Kirby is perhaps the greatest talent to grace superhero comics. Whether you're talking about ideas or images, Kirby is peerless. He is criminally underappreciated or just plain criminally unknown outside of comics. But Jack Kirby was not Marvel Comics and he did not create Spider-Man.
Spider-Man does not fit Kirby's solo canon at all while he fits Stan Lee's like a glove.
Now what glove is that? The hero with a curse/hero with a vulnerability. Thor: the god with the disabled alter ego (turns into disabled Don Blake if his hammer if he's not in contact with his hammer for more than 60 seconds). Daredevil: the superhero who can't see. Dr. Strange: the sorcerer with a tremor. Iron Man: the hero with a heart condition (pierced by shrapnel - he needed his armor to live, not just be Iron Man). The Thing: the pilot who gained unbelievable strength but became a monster in the process. Ditto for the Hulk, who you could also characterize as the genius who became an idiot when his powers manifested.
But the flaws weren't always physical/internal. You also had the X-Men, the teens who saved the world on a regular basis while the world either knew nothing of them or feared and hated them. And in that same vein, we also have Spider-Man. The hero his city thinks is a menace. The hero who's secretly a nerdy, unpopular, and bullied kid. The hero with a guilt complex the size of Manhattan. The hero who's a born loser. Charlie Brown with powers.
Can I add two exceptions that prove the rule? The Silver Surfer and the Watcher, both created by Kirby (I think the Watcher is Kirby's). But their origins were written by Stan Lee after the fact. The Silver Surfer gained the power cosmic and the joy(?) of soaring the spaceways and saving his home planet, but the curse was he could never see Zenn-La (his homeworld) or Shalla Bal (his love) ever again. Stan Lee and John Buscema. The Watcher is a being with seemingly infinite knowledge and power, but an oath keeps him from directly using either to help "lesser" beings. Stan Lee and Gene Colan.
Some people might not like Stan Lee, but that's no reason for denigrating his genius. We can celebrate Jack Kirby without tearing down Stan Lee.
+ZedsDeadAgain Jack didn't design Spider-Man. His design wasn't used. Kirby said his proof that he designed Spider-Man was that he drew the cover, but Stan rejected Ditko's original and Ditko inked the cover to keep the design consistent. Jack's Spider-man was similar to the Fly, which was it was rejected.
exactly. "We can celebrate Jack Kirby without tearing down Stan Lee." This is perfectly said.
Well for Steve it's cause he kinda went crazy later.
Here's the only fact. We wouldn't have shit if the 2 didnt' get together. Kirby is just jealous because Lee was able to market himself better then Kirby was. You want to see why dialogue is so impoprtant, why speach is as much of importancy as illustrating, Lee weath. His talking in the comics as well as outside is the reason most people think of Stan Lee before the Kirby or of Kirby at all. Rating which tile, be it FF or Thor, Spider-man or Dr. Stange. Shit, that's all in opinion. That's preference. We've all read titles that KNOW were geneous. Kibry just pissed he didn't get the recogognition he thought, and did deserve. I guarantee that if he was getting the same dollar amount in his pocket that Lee got you wouldn't have this debate, you wouldn't hear a peep from Kirby and the creative process would have been just the same. That was the whole thing. It was all about the fucking dollar. Here's a fact. Kirby doesn't get a dollar anytime a Darkseid figure sells. Is his estate going to get a thing after they show his ultra DC baddy Darkseid in the Justice League movies. Plus, I got to see his name. The guy who worked years with both Lee and Kirby both and said Lee deserves all the credit he gets and peopl are just Lee bashing. Was it fifty on the creative parts of the each character or story. No, but how much part did Kirby take in the presenting to the public and the marketing and advertising of the books and characters. None. that was all Lee. A good example of how popular Kirby characters would have been without Lee, Lee was the one that pulled Captain America out an ice block. He pulled Kirby's dead character and put him in the Avengers. Kirby has never denied that fact and how times have we heard Stan Lee say how the Avengers were missing something. That was his idea and for it. Captain America never went away again. The 4th world stories didn't get any popular until they started putting those charaters into the mainstream and Superman got involved. Why, his dialogue was horrible. Brian Bendis and Mark Millar. Two writers that I see so much love/hate critiques. Mosty about to much dialogue in an issue for a Bendis book and personally, but it's only my opinion, I love the dialogue because backs story doesn't have to be action. Well, all his titles sell and they sell well. If they didn't, he wouldn't be doing 4 or five titles. at one time. Other Lee, I don't remember anyone doing more then one title as a write ever. Bendis and Millar. Both masters of the dialogue. regardless. I just know we wouldn't have this wonderful medium, this great escape, the visual and spoken art that we have at level it is at now if not for having both of these guys together at one point. no way.
Stan married the daughter of the owner of Marvel. That didn't hurt.
Finally someone with some sense.
@@bendu8282 I've read a LOT about Kirby. Wondering if he got fucked. He might have. Here and there. But he bitched and complained after the fact. But here's the thing. Kirby grew up ROUGH. HE FIST FOUGHT. A lot. I relate to this and him. Where he was from what he went thru. Him from New York, me from Chicago. But all the $hit about where he was from, what he went thru. Fight on ROOF TOPS. Let me tell you something right now. His day and age? No internet? No camera's? No social media, press blah blah blah. I'm only 47 but if I was getting screwed by someone like he says he was, being the person he says he was and grew up as? That doesn't happen. Violence fixes problems, and hanging Stan Lee out a window in the 50's, 60's, or 70's and yelling "Where's MY TOY MONEY MUTHER FUCKTER!!!?" Was a VERY REAL thing that would have happened. In NEW YORK AND CHICAGO.... But also....JUSTIFIABLE. So why didn't the inner SUPER HERO jump out of KIRBY and grab a hold of Stan? I call B.S.. On Kirby's part. Just because I cuz I know how things would have really happened. ALSO. How many decades Didi he put up with it till he jumped ship? Kirby was due the respect. His name on everything. But his complaints are out of jealousy cuz he put up with long enough to be call be called to long. He got jealous. But don't blame Stan cuz Stan could market himself well.
Dialogue is important, and Stan made a great contribution. But Jim Shooter doesn't claim he created Elektra because he edited Frank Miller's dialogue for the comic she first appeared in.
Sheesh. The interviewer is annoying as hell. It was interesting to hear them actually arguing about the things fans have been arguing about constantly in decades since. I was surprised that Lee insisted, with Jack right on the line with him, that he really did write everything in FF. Seems like he sincerely believed it. And it is quite possible that Jack never did see a finished copy of the stories. If Stan is lying, he's lying to himself as much as anybody else.
That said, at the end of the day, the fact is that even if that's true, all Stan was really doing was re-writing the dialogue Jack had already penciled in. The characters were his, the stories were his, he added his own dialogue. I mean, I'm sorry, but the Silver Surfer and Galactus are clearly Kirby characters, and the entire FF is based on characters Jack had done years before. Arguably, Stan amounted to little more than a glorified editor, at least on that book. I suppose we'll never really know for sure, but it may be that neither party is actually lying at all.
+americanslime Jim Steranko (who worked at Marvel back in the 1960s and was even fired by Lee) called B.S. on the "Lee didn't do anything" myth.
Todd Polt He was fired? So that's why there's no more books of his! Why thought? Was it because of low Fury sales?
Very well said !
Even Stan Lee admitted in many interviews that he said this to Kirby:
"Hey Jack, let's let the Fantastic Four fight against GOD ! "
The response of Jack Kirby to that vague idea was the creation of Galactus, Silver Surfer, the complete story and the artwork.
Stan Lee also admitted that when he got the completed artwork he called Jack and asked him:
" Hey Jack, who is this guy on a surf board ? "
Later in the credits:
Writer: Stan Lee
Art: Jack Kirby
Me: LOL !
@@todpolk way too many former employees at marvel during that era have attested to Stan as being very involved in the creative writing of these characters, while it seems that those who disagree can’t even agree on who created what between themselves (Ditko vs Kirby)
@@todpolk Steranko was also much younger than Jack and Steve and not established but Stan gave him a job in an industry he wanted to be in desperately. Of course he's going to defend him compared to the people who knew better at the time.
Stan Lee is great, but Jack Kirby is God
I think Jack Kriby is a New God
They didn’t deserve him.
It's difficult to surmise just how much of the history has been dictated by a guy that speaks a million miles an hour, not always truthfully. Stan was running to get coffee for guys like Jack and Joe Simon before happening into many positions he wasnt trained for whatsoever. He had a knack for what he was good at though, and that helped sell the comics, but unfortunately the downside of that is he concocted some of the history into his favor, perhaps more than he deserved. Hes specifically good at taking credit for things and I find people like that often arent concerned with the fact that their collaborator is the one doing the lion's share of the work. It's a machiavellian kind of morality to operate that way, casually excepting credit for others' efforts. Stan was an ace at that, whether you defend him or not hes joked about how hes happy to take credit for things if no one else will.
Stan was groomed into a company man by Goodman and by never giving full credit to the artists and horning in his own version of the truth at times it hurt the creatives in the long run. Stan benefitted from this tremendously, it must be said, as has Marvel. Long after the fact more credit was given, mostly as a courtesy, not legally or financially mind you. And even that was mostly bc people would call them out for not having Ditko's name credited when they do a Spider Man movie or something. It would be bad press for them so sure theyll tag his name there after the damage is decades done. Marvel was all too happy to have the version of events being that Stan the Company Man was the creative force behind all their blockbuster characters, because they could sign off their success to one man they did incredible favors for and who would toe the company line as a consequence. And of course, bc it capitalized most on the work of all these artists in a tidy fashion. The 10% they owe to Stan was a much easier price to pay than the cut the artists actually deserve, which wouldve been much more.
Marvel's merry, but Jack's not jolly and Steve's not smiling and you can understand why. Even in this interview you hear Jack say something to the effect of "so you can see how it was..." after that verbal spar with Stan about how he was giving Stan the stories and dialogue ideas as well. Dominant personalities win out in tbose situations and you can see how one of Stan's "shy" artists, by his own estimation, could be steamrolled by him in the eleventh hour when all the fancying up and finishing touches were done, and his name was being signed loud and proud above Kirby's. People who like to take credit seem to always be the hardest workers suddenly when 90% of something is done and they can wrap it up, put their name on it and present it largely as their own.
Stansplaining.
Here are the facts, Stan Lee is not a creative person and never has been. Stan Lee has one talent and that is marketing, self promotion and taking credit for things he didn't really do. Stan Lee only got the job at Timely because he cousin was a big shot there and got him the job, he had no credit work to him before this while Kirby had a slew of characters and a huge body of work. When they got together and made various Marvel characters they were either rehashed Kirby characters from years before or they took other existing comic characters and stole them. Once Kirby left the work Lee did was completely awful and he never created a worthwhile thing, unlike Kirby who gave us the New Gods, the Eternals, and a bunch of other stuff. Stan Lee is the biggest credit thief on the planet and all these comic fans worship him like he is an amazing man.....if amazing is riding someone else's creative coat tails while contributing almost nothing then he is AMAZING. Screw Stan Lee.
+1980Triumph want another fact? Look up how Kirby screwed over Joe Simon on Captain America.
Todd Polt What did he do, I do know for a good while Stan was signing his name and gets recognition for Captain America.
+1980Triumph Bullshit. Yes, Lee is a hell of a showman/pitchman - and that's the very thing that put Marvel on the map. But he's also a hell of a writer, and you seem to forget that he wrote pretty much every comic to come out of Marvel in the early to mid 60s.
wrlord You don't know history, Stan Lee is a great self promoter and claimed many things he did not do. The comics he wrote were never good or regarded highly, the stories by others are what sold the characters. You need don't know what you are talking about Stan Lee is a co man.
+1980Triumph You really shouldn't talk til you get a clue.
Lee even got into trouble taking credit for Captain America, a character he had ZERO to do with. An old Cap is just another Marvel rip off of a comic character that existed years before.
So wouldn't it have been KIRBY who did the ripoff in that case?
@@lancerutt9936but Kirby literally co-created Cap with Joe Simon.