Zoom MS-70CDR vs. TC Electronic Flashback 2 - In-Depth Delay Shoot-Out!
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- The Zoom MS-70CDR is a multi-fx pedal that you see on the table of many a synth jammer - and for good reason: it's cheap, wildly flexible and sounds pretty good. But offering such a wide range of effects, is it a Jack-of-all-Trades, but a master of none?
In this video I put it up against a similarly priced, dedicated delay pedal: the TC Electronic Flashback 2, compare the features and sounds, and discuss how these two pedals offer two different forms of flexibility in your synth rig.
Timings:
00:00 - Intro
01:39 - Feature comparison
08:42 - FAQ: Power
09:23 - FAQ: Signal Levels
11:14 - FAQ: Stereo
13:01 - FAQ: Analogue Through
13:40 - FAQ: 100% Wet
14:40 - FAQ: Long, Weird and Ambient
16:49 - Zoom - Analogue (w/Korg Monolgue)
19:34 - Flashback - Analogue (w/Korg Monolgue)
21:37 - Flashback - Tape (w/Korg Minilogue)
23:48 - Zoom - Tape (w/Korg Minilogue)
26:00 - Flashback - Digital (w/Arturia Microfreak)
29:08 - Zoom - Digital (w/Arturia Microfreak)
31:56 - Zoom - Ice (Pitch Shift Delay) (w/Dubreq Stylophone Gen-R8)
35:00 - Flashback Crystal (Octave Delay) (w/Dubreq Stylophone Gen-R8)
37:29 - Zoom - Mod Delay (w/Arturia Microfreak)
41:06 - Flashback - Mod Delay (w/Arturia Microfreak)
44:03 - Flashback - My Toneprint (w/Dubreq Stylophone Gen-R8)
45:43 - Zoom - Lo-Fi Delay (w/Arturia Microbrute 2S)
47:53 - Zoom - Drive Echo (w/Arturia Microbrute 2S)
49:03 - Zoom - Filter Ping-Pong (w/Arturia Microbrute 2S)
51:18 - Final Thoughts
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Although the Flashback sounds perhaps somewhat better in some of the programs, the adjustment flexibility of the Zoom is mind-blowing. Especially if you want to add a touch of chorus, reverb, phasing, eq adjustment, etc. to the sound - no need to purchase an additional dedicated pedal for that, it's already there in the Zoom.
What a lovely video! Thanks mate.
Nicely produced, explained and demoed.
Great demonstration vid. Thanks!
Great demos! Thanks.
Excellent run through of these! Can’t decide; but intrigued to learn more about the TC TonePrint feature! Thanks!!
The toneprint app is pretty great for TC Electronic boxes - it's easy to create your own or modify another toneprint. I have a USB cable connected to the pedal (TC Electronic Alter Ego V2) and a cheap camera connection kit for my iPhone to enable wired transfer. If you're a guitarist, the pickup method works great if that's the only pedal between your guitar and the rest of the signal chain. Otherwise, you have to make sure the inbetween pedals are turned off, the pedal isn't in the amp loop, etc. The camera connection is about $10, and worth it with these pedals.
@@robertlewis5439 Thanks! And apparently I suffered an outbreak of GAS; I now have a Plethora AND an MS-70CDR! 🤣
This video sold me Flashback 2. Earlier I didn't think much of it, but it sounds pretty clean and sharp but not boring!
Interesting review I hope your cold clears up soon
Love your videos. Your comments, and synth examples are very very useful and informative. Keep up the good work.
Respect
Thanks friend!
thanks friend for review, two more pieces for the studio!!
The Journey never ends!
Another great shoot out, giving us that all important, "how does it handle hot signals". I make Dark Ambient, Industrial Noise etc, from drone box's, pedal feedback, saturated tape loops etc. These can get very hot.
Its good to know the Flashback can take a beating. I'd heard the HoF TC will turn itself off if given too hot a signal. It's usually the delays that clip unusably (even for noise) whilst the reverbs hold out a bit better. I'm supposed to be shooting out my own pedal library, to sell some, need back some space and cash.
Instead I'm drooling your second Zoom vid today, job clearly well done on your part. Lol.
Excellent video 😊
Cheers friend!
Great review and playing...Thanks for your efforts
Here I was, all pumped to hear the famous 7-second delay, but only heard all the other stuff.
Very good comparison. I have the Zoom and for the price & versaility is a no brainer for me
Flashback is mindblowing in delay
Zoom is mindblowing in flexibility
I would buy both ^^
superb review....
Thank you!
Great video. I use the TC transitions which was a Guitar Center Exclusive of the Flashback1 with some different modes. For instance they both have RVS (reverse) but One mode is ping pong that is outstanding on the Transitions. It only has one toneprint slot though so it lacks the flexibility of the flashback 2.
Very impressed with Zoom never considered them before.
Well done, mate! Great review once again...I love both pedals and use them extensively with my MicroFreak and DrumBrute Impact. For live performances I use the Flashback exclusively because the handling is much easier and intuitive. When it comes to recording, however, I do spend much more time programming my effect chains and presets, then the Zoom is the pedal of choice...
Would like to know more about your fx chain for the drumbrute impact, have the same gear
Excellent comparison! Sound and utility are of course highly personal. Given that, I think the Flashback sound suits me better. Also, with dedicated controls it is better for me for live performance because of the muscle memory. No denying the flexibility of the Zoom.
Agreed - being able to reach for a control and knowing intuitively how it will affect the sound is very beneficial in the heat of the moment - great for not interrupting your flow.
The way I see it is that the Zoom is for people on a low budget: for one affordable price you've got chorus, delay and reverb (and, alas, only 3 knobs). A dedicated pedal like the TC will give you more control and more quality but only one effect. There ain't such a thing as a free lunch I'm afraid. ;-)
I’d say the screen is a benefit. It helps you to tell where pedals are in a dark room.
Def get a Zoom tomorrow :) Cheers (Although the TC was very crisp and clean)
Great video, thanks. TC sounds just great! Zoom is flexible and allaroundish, but when I listen to music, I don’t think about that - ONLY Sound matters, No brainer for me - Flashback wins!
Definitely, both these pedals have a definable uniqueness I find appealing. I would incorporate both in my arsenal for sure! Effects truly bring out the absolute best in man and machine! Expanding Knowledge 🌎 🎹 🎶😎
I Love my Polar pedal, I use it with the Obscura. I have dedicated those two to work with my Korg micro modular feeding into two more processors, the Digitech S-200, and the Berhringer virtualizer-pro. This is how I achieve multi effects for all my synthesis.Love your comparisons on pedals, Top notch!!! 😎 🎶🎹 Expanding Knowledge 🌎
Your conclusions match mine. I will say that I have the filter ping pong delay on my Zoom and it's almost an instrument in and of itself. It's ridiculously easy to dial in very musical results with it. IMO, it alone may be worth the price of admission!
Yeah, I love that mode - it's a fantastic way to enhance a "one box" beat. I might try building upon the concept in Zoia actually...
Every synth put a zoom on it will sound better😁, Joking.
I build up a effect chain with a few pedal, but zoom save so many space to do the same thing.
So I end up get 3 zoom.
When the digital started up on the flashback, wow 😍
I'd barely touched the digital mode because I liked the Analogue mode and my Tone print so you were essentially seeing me discover that magic in real-time! Will be exploring that some more.
The blend and richness of sound on the TC 👌 Oh god I hadn’t even got to the tone print ❤️
Now I have to buy a Zoom, thx!
I have an MS-70CDR and I never really liked it. It's sat unused for a few months. I just find the sound really muddy and somewhat lofi. Cool if you're in to that, but I was going to pick up the Flashback 2, then went all in and got the Plethora X3 (an X5 now on the way). The sound quality from the effects is really very good.
Do you want to sell the zoom?
cool cool thanks
What is the product year zoom ms 70 cdr
It seems like the TC sounds a lot nicer especially when changing the settings...the zoom sounds ok sometimes, but when you adjust the parameters it always sounds so crappy digital...can you adjust the knob dynamics on the zoom?
the zoom just offers so much more
For reverb, zoom or TC ?
Hey Mr Sink, how would you say the MS-70CDR stands up against the effects in the Korg NTS-1?
That would certainly be a shootout worth doing. The interesting thing there, of course, is it depends what effects you've loaded onto the NTS-1. If we're just talking the factory fx... I haven't done a 1 to 1 comparison, but in my head, the Korg is winning on those basic sounds. It is worth noting though, that editing anything but the basic parameters on the Korg is kinda a pain, and you can't save presets, so there's a usability issue to balance against the sounds.
But maybe I should record a shoot-out and make a more informed decision...
@@OscillatorSink Thanks for your insight - the UX issues with the NTS-1 are what's holding me back making a purchase. In its favour it does have midi, though, which would be useful for clocking delays, etc. A shootout is certainly something I'd like to see!
@@JonathanBrain1 I believe the Multistomp actually has MIDI over USB, it's just not well documented.
Hi! Great video and explanation!
I do have one question: By using toneprint (Flashback 2) can you set the ping pong delay for example to dotted 8 note on L and dotted 4 note for the right. I am really interested in the ping-pong delay, and on the button I just see the switch between 2 note types.
Now, I know you mentioned that in creates from a mono synth that stereo width, which thanks a lot for clarifying.
Many thanks again, so if you have some time just curious if you could modify and play with these subdivisions for ping-pong, either model, but interested more in the TC Electronic pedal. I know the Flashback 2 x 4 has a dedicated ping pong mode, so i was wondering if it is really worth buying that pedal instead only for this feature.
Cheers and all the best!
There are 3 sub division settings for the "built in" delays, the bottom setting sets the divisions to different on left and right - not ping pong, but it gives that width.
In tone print you can do... All sorts. So yeah you can change the left and right divisions. You can even do things like have the time knob affect left more than right so they diverge, always have right a few milliseconds ahead of left so there's always a stereo spread, or even repurpose, the knobs so that, for example, the delay time knob controls the time AND feedback of the left delay and feed back does the same for right. It's pretty comprehensive.
@@OscillatorSink Thanks a lot for the reply! Will definitely try than!
TC Transitions has a Ping Pong mode. Its essentially a Flashback 1 with some unique modes that was sold as a guitar center exclusive. Not all modes are unique as the both have a Reverse mode but the Ping Pong is why I bought it.
Are you able to set tempo with tap tempo on the ZOOM? If yes, how? Thank you!
Yes - on most algorithms. If it's an option then the left knob/button will act to tap in the tempo. Time divisions will be found at the end of the delay settings (turn the knob clockwise).
Is the Flashback and the Polara the (dedicated) delay and reverb pedals in the $100-$200 range you'd recommend for synths?
The Flashback is an all round solid choice. Polara is great, but not necessarily the best choice for big ambient sounds. If you're looking for both, I'd also strongly consider the Source Audio Collider which is delay and reverb in one pedal and the source audio stuff is superb sounding. I personally use the source audio Nemesis and Ventris on my guitar pedal board for a really wise range of conventional and wild sounds and I'm always very impressed.
Does delay stop on zoom when you switch preset? Is there way to have two patches one with and other without delay and to turn delay on and off for short time to get it to repeat part?
When you switch preset it does, but within a preset, most delays have a Trails mode which will fade them out when you turn just the delay off
@@OscillatorSink Thanks. Can you set it up to turn off delay on footswitch? How do you turn just delay off?
When a virtual pedal is shown on the screen, that's the effect you're turning on and off with the footswitch.
On a thrifty note I did the hack usually applied to the MS-70CDR on a used $60 MS-60B and lack only stereo input, same DSP of course.
Speaking of yr topic tho, I put a 1st Gen Flashback in the loop of the JRocket APE echoplex emulator in front of the Zoom MS reverbs, the defined saturated tones from the APE stand up really well to Zoom dithering "smear", even with pads, it's so great. Others have said the EHX Canyon is even better the the TCE.
Try the APE on stuff like LABS Tape Orchestra or Frozen Strings, even Felt Piano or best, The Gimp from Pianobook, route out and back into the DAW, it's really quite lovely
For a couple years I've been looking for a pedal that's just good HPF. It'd be nice to have a HPF with a big cutoff knob and resonance and maybe a little gain. That would be the perfect thing when I'm just playing around with little battery-powered stuff like my Volcas and 606 and TR-6S. Those things are great, and I like to just hook each one up to its own BT speaker and play around. They all have their own volume. But I'd really like a HPF and maybe drive to put on the 606.
There are several cheap overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedals which have a filter knob. And there's the Monotron. But those are all LPF. Maybe I could modify one of them to a HPF? But even then, the filter's usually not full range and doesn't have resonance.
I could get a super small eurorack enclosure and put a great filter in that like the Erica Synths Black HPF. That'd be perfect if I actually found a battery-powered chassis. But that's almost as extravagant as getting a Zen Delay just for the HPF. I might as well use my Eventide H9. I'm just surprised there's not some cheap little $39 TC Electronic or Donner or Amazon Basics pedal that has a decent filter. I guess the Zoom MS-50 or MS-70 are my best options.
Not "pedals" per se, but if you can find one second hand, the Waldorf 2-Pole would be worth considering, there's also the Vermona filter bank if you can find them. They both do... More (like envelopes and LFOs) but I'm sure you could find a use for that.
@@OscillatorSink Yeah I thought about getting a Waldorf Rocket mostly because you can use it as a filter for an input, too. It's just funny that I can't find anything pedal-sized. The Zoom has an EQ I can use, which is almost as good. Or just a $29 Behringer EQ pedal. I guess making my HPF stomp box wouldn't be hard if I just get the right op-amp IC.
Please do a TonePrint editor deep dive video!
Why does most zoom effects sound mono while stereo separation is evident , 3d in flashback? Wasn't zoom also recorded in stereo ?
Because many of the delays on the Zoom are mono. Not all of them, but some of them. It was recorded in stereo, so any of the stereo algorithms I demo will be in stereo, the mono ones will be in mono.
@@OscillatorSink thank you. So I think you will recommend flashback if I am looking for ambient music and larger soundscape ?
That would probably be the way I'd go.
Wow this is great! Do you already have the Microfreak Vocoder Edition?!?
So I Have the Zoom but being second-hand original presets have been erased.. how to set them back?
Big thanks : )
Thanks, yes I do.
The manual is available online. If you Google "Zoom MS-CDR70 Manual" it should be the first result. On page 31 it provides the instructions which are: to power on the unit while pressing down the left knob, then press the footswitch when prompted.
You can actually install all the effects from all models on your zoom ms 70cdr.
@@macpaz Can you install overdrive/distortion from ms-50?
@@LukezyM yes
@@macpaz Cool.
How are you getting stereo if you’re only plugged into the mono input for both the zoom and flashback
Most stereo effects will duplicate the signal to both sides if you plug into just the mono input. As the signal is processed differently on both sides you end up with a stereo signal.
There is a hack that allows you to add effects from Zoom pedals MS-50G, MS-60B, , G1on/G1xon or B1on/B1xon onto The CDR.
Now I have to buy a Zomm, thx!
Sorry!
@@OscillatorSink haha : )
TC = Only Delay, 70CDR = Chorus, Delay, Reverb!! I have the TC Hall of Fame 2 and it's ok , I just don't like that it does NOT have trails! So I don't use it much anymore. Dose this one have trails?
Yes. Well, mostly. It depends on the virtual pedal, but most do.
I had the MS70 and sold it. It was just so much faff to make anything half decent sounding, made music feel like admin..
Thanks for all the great content!! I wonder if you could help me out with an isue i'm having with the 70-CDR? I'm getting a constant delay with the unit even when the pedal is off. The unit is on without the pedal being pressed in and yeah, I have the same delay. When I press on the pedal the delay stays but now combined with the effect that I have chosen, so basically it is always there whether I have the pedal pushed in or not. It's doing my head in. Do you have any ideas what this could be? Thank you!!!!
What is the rest of your setup?
Also, remember that you can have multiple virtual pedals in a patch and they are turned on and off individually. Scroll left and right and check you don't have another delay effect on the patch that is still turned on.
@@OscillatorSink Aha, oh man, it looks like I have to watch a tutorial as I don't understand it fully. I was just going through the presets not realising that some of them were still in my chain. Thanks a million!! Btw any plans on doing more Microfreak goodness or do you feel you have explored it fully at this point?
I think there's still stuff I'd like to cover on the MF, and I'd be surprised if we'd seen the end of updates for it given Arturia's prior form, so hopefully there'll he something new to talk about at some point if nothing else.
What? No Soulsby synth for the lo-fi delay example? Just kidding. That might be too chaotic for some.
Very nice job. I will have to revisit the tape delay effect on the zoom based on your conclusions.
The problem with going 8bit with the lofi delay is that you would find it difficult to discern what was Lo-Fi synth and what was coming from the delay - I actually thought about that!
@@OscillatorSink I see no "problem" with that. LOL. Joking of course. I totally understand what you mean.
A few months ago, I was playing with the vinyl setting, and my daughter said "dad something is seriously wrong with your amp". Of course, she doesn't nerd out on the settings like some of us do.
So are you're indicating the Zoom has plastic knobs are different than the flashback knobs
Are the flashback knobs made of metal? Wood? Glass?
They look like plastic but I guess not
Please let us know
Thanks
The Flashback knobs are also plastic, as far as I can tell, but are harder, feel like they are mounted more securely (don't wobble) and are wider so that lateral movement would bottom the knob up against the casing rather than act like a lever and put stress on the shaft.
The angle of the Zoom knobs protects them from kicking them, in contraty to the other pedals..... And you're not worried about the knobs on the TC, which can be kicked when activating the footswitch??
The knobs on the Zoom are much further forwards and are thin shafted encoders, so, yes, I'm personally more worried about damaging the Zoom if it's down on my pedal board.
Has some pretty good algos, and some not so good ones. But having one ever since it came out - and done the firmware update - I pick the ones I find interesting and skip the others. For the money is damn hard to beat. As a FWIW, I bought it for guitar use, but find it more suitable for keys. One thing I noticed is that not all of the algos are true stereo.
I bought it for keys, but it's equally great for big ambient guitars and cool effects!
Jumping Man... but which "it" do you have, the Zoom MS-70CDR or the. TC Electronic Flashback 2 ?
@@SyncdAlien zoom
@@SyncdAlien What ya think....Which is emulating others and has different algos, or even just an algo, for that matter🤣🤣🤣.....
What do you think of the zoom while doing live music please? Is the flashback better for live?
So there's two parts to this answer - do you need pre-prepared effects chains and specific preset for each song? Well then the Zoom wins, easily. If you need something that's more hands on and immediate, then the Flashback wins (at the expense of presets etc.).
You need to compare Zoom MS-70CDR with TC Flashback + Hall of Fame + Corona and it's not the same price.
The 'Smooth Delay' (= digital) is great for letting your echoed signal go on infinitely at the same volume of the original without distortion! Very weird lovely effect! You can add a note and that one wil go on infinitely too. Great for some weird experimenting.
The 'Stomp Delay' emulates a dirty BBD delay that self oscillates. Great for some Industrial, Psychedelic or Grunge effects. Especially with white noise and a resonating filter.
I deleted the other delays w/ the (illegal?) 'Zoom Effect Manager' software (I can put 'm back if I want to). Honestly: there are too many effects on this pedal. It ain't no fun browsing through all 120+ of 'm because they all start to sound alike and you can't find what you need.
I love my MS-70CDR but the Flashback 2 seems more “playable”. That said I’m looking at picking one up now to drop into my live rig
I think that's a fair assessment, yes. I hope you enjoy it!
@@OscillatorSink thanks! Assuming I can find one on the states. Seems like used on Reverb is the most likely option. I’m guessing maybe TC Electronic has discontinued the FB2
Does the MS-70CDR have tap tempo delay?
Yes. On most delay algorithms anyway.
@@OscillatorSink how to use the tap tempo? And is there also a vibrato effect on there?
@@boimesa8190 when editing the fx parameters the left knob/button acts as a tap tempo. Scroll the delay time all the way to the right to get to time divisions.
And yes there's a vibrato.
The TC is definitely has more character, more warm and alive sounding, over the mediocre digital-ness of the zoom, although the zoom is actually way more versatile.
Yeah, I really wanted to love the Zoom but a delay just cant sound "meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"..."meh"...
If you mod your MS70CDR, you can add all manner of effects. So you could route the boring digital delay through an amp simulator, EQ, its own dedicated reverb, anything you like. That's what I love about it. You can build your own unique sounds, like you would by stacking plugins.
The MS70 has the bonus of a host of EQs that you can put after or before the delay. There are some people that manage authentic sounding copies of different beloved delay pedals with the MS70, using its EQs.
Although, the thinner delays of the MS70 is closer to the delays that I EQ other pedals to sound like in a full mix
Zooms are amazing for playing on pre-set patches, or to be an universal pedalboard-filler, but to be honest, it is not as fun to use realtime - you can't get precise delay feedback control, or change a patch so easily.
Still, having B1xON, gotta love the zoom
Comparing the zoom pedal (great utility pedal) to all the others is like comparing 🍎 to 🍊 - waste of time. There’s so much more to that pedal that is worth showcasing….
I don't think it's a waste of time if folks want to get a feeling for how the quality of descrete effects stack up to similarly priced pedals.
If you want to see it doing more involved things, I made a video that took a raw sawtooth wave and used the zoom to build the rest of a monosynth architecture + fx. ruclips.net/video/3Krcvc0UvAg/видео.html
"Zoom MS-70CDR:
It... depends"
Above your conclusions you can "hack" the Zoom to put all type of effects on it from the other pedals in that serie.....About 180 different pedal types....
Zoom appears to be mono, while Flashback has a wider open stereo image....
I have to say the flash back has more depth the zoom has more knobs...but the zoom sounds good is it wrong to want both
As someone who owns both, I'd say it's fine to want both!
I have a Nightsky so want another pedal for use with a sound/noise box. Might get the flashback as it does sound great. The Zoom meh. I mean get a Kaoss pad mini if you want a heap of multi effects.
Hehe. PP Delay.
Hehehe
Sounds rude.
But the MS-70cdr can load hundreds of patches with different effects..
Yep. 15 seconds in I say that.
@@OscillatorSink i meant the hack that makes you able to load all the zoom pedal templates also of the zoom ms50 for instance
@@TheTerracide yep, also true. But in this video I'm comparing delay algorithms.
@@OscillatorSink i am not trying to say there the anything wrong with your video. It's a really well made and well balanced video that i really enjoyed and i am sorry for not explaining myself properly. But what i meant is that when you have to choose between those pedals the Zoom hack gives you a lot more functionality for free and that is something to consider choosing between those pedals since there is much more as just delay types that are great but also amp emulation profiles from the zoom ms50. It was a remark to future buyers watching this video...
wow almost an hour long. no thanks
Thanks for letting me know!