Well done spectator! Ground breaking journalism. Let’s discuss ADHD without one neuroscientist or psychiatrist in the conversation. Who needs experts when we have a random lady who likely has been misdiagnosed as her account sounds more like chronic personality/mood disorder picture, and our regular pundit Peter Hitchens who is willing to speak on anything and everything
@@DaboooogA no, this just goes to show your ignorance on the topic. I work with some brilliant psychiatrists in the NHS, and I am yet to come across anyone who has diagnosed a child with ADHD in my service, despite incredibly pushy and demanding parents, and we’re talking thousands of patients here. We nearly always err on the side of caution and discover that the difficulties are usually linked to ACEs/trauma/intergenerational mental health issues etc. I think you’ll find the problems with over diagnosing and medicating occur in the private sector where there is a profit incentive.
Symptoms of ADHD according to NHS's website: Inattentiveness (difficulty concentrating and focusing) The main signs of inattentiveness are: having a short attention span and being easily distracted making careless mistakes - for example, in schoolwork appearing forgetful or losing things being unable to stick to tasks that are tedious or time-consuming appearing to be unable to listen to or carry out instructions constantly changing activity or task having difficulty organising tasks Hyperactivity and impulsiveness The main signs of hyperactivity and impulsiveness are: being unable to sit still, especially in calm or quiet surroundings constantly fidgeting being unable to concentrate on tasks excessive physical movement excessive talking being unable to wait their turn acting without thinking interrupting conversations little or no sense of danger Makes me think that the government may be suffering from ADHD.
I worked in mental health on and off for 40 years. One thing I have noticed is how among people with personality disorders, ranging from relatively mild narcissism through to full on dangerous psychopaths, is how their behaviours have followed 'fads'. When I started, few people had eating disorders. Around 1979/80, I recall a couple of programmes on TV about anorexia nervosa and articles about Carol Carpenter. Within 12 months, the acute wards of psychiatric hospitals were full of such people. A little later, Munchausen Syndrome got a bit of an outing in the press. Low and behold, a few months later, we had our wards full of such people. ADHD and all the other alphabetty spaghetti disorders have all had their time in the sun over the past four decades. The current trans explosion is another reflection of this. However, I think in this case a small number of quite dangerous psychopaths are leading the field in this presentation of disorder. I'm not saying that these people do not have a mental health disorder; they do. But by and large they have the same disorder that was rightly grouped under the narcissistic personality disorder 40+ years ago. The problem with mental health issues is that the terminology used often becomes a term of abuse, and increasingly, because we do not want to label people as either ‘mad’ or ‘bad’, we pretend these behaviours are OK and not destructive to the individual or the people around them.
Eating disorders are the result of a cognitive view of oneself. It's easy for some to develop such disorder through peer pressure, trauma or even brainwashing. ADHD is a neurological disorder and is not in the same category as Bulimia or Munchausen. For someone who works in healthcare, you cannot even grasp Psychology at the GCSE level.
interesting perspective. it’s true that mental health diagnoses can sometimes reflect societal trends, and the way we talk about them changes over time. but it’s also important to recognize the real struggles people face, regardless of how “popular” a diagnosis is. labeling can definitely be harmful if it’s not handled carefully, but dismissing legitimate conditions as just trends doesn’t help either. there’s gotta be a balance between understanding new information and not jumping to conclusions.
@@iphang-ishordavid2954 Where do you want me to start. Too much. Hitchens is basically a Victorian, and like many in the UK fetishes the era, that era of cold showers, industrial slavery, compulsory Sunday Service, sexual repression, knowing one's place and child labour. Just one disapproving flare of his nostrils says it all. In this video, he is trying feebly to use the 'critical method' to deny the existence of mental health much as those 'right-thinking' Victorians might have done when condemning the unwell to Bedlam, the work house or the prison system. His entire life has been wasted boring everyone to death trying to revive Victoriana , and he's made a good living out of preaching to the converted. - There is no 'objective physical test' for any mental health condition, including Schizoprenia. He's basically (it would seem) of the opinion that it's all made up and that sufferers are nothing more than malingerers. As I said, the Victorian governess brought into modern day
Every time she opened her mouth she brought up another condition from which she suffers, infertility, epilepsy, depression, hip replacement, and the list goes on. She's a walking medical dictionary.
The big pharma playbook in 3 steps: 1. Make up a disease 2. List as many symptoms as possible so that as many people as possible can be 'diagnosed' 3. Prescribe drug for disease
I've had a lifetime of anxiety attacks, fears and phobias, and I don't take any medication, thankfully. Caffeine triggers a lot of it and there are many things that exacerbate it. I'm sure I could easily get a diagnosis for several trending conditions and medication, but I don't believe they exist. I function normally, I joke about my oddities and I think this is who I am.
Good for you! I applaud you for that. I believe "therapy" (in quotes because it's undefined / we don't know what the word means) causes so much harm that it is responsible for a lot of people taking psych drugs. That was my experience when I was 21 and it's not possible I am the only person / teenager for whom this was the path. Years of talk "therapy" only made me worse because "therapy" was actually gaslighting and psychological abuse by way of reality denialism and other tactics. It only left me more despairing for my future. It left me believing my future was already gone and hopeless, and so, in that state of mind, I relented and "decided" to take prozac, something I was completely against. I do not believe in taking a drug to solve your non-medical problems. But I was in the "nothing to lose" mindset, believing all was already lost, anyway, so even though I knew it would not help and probably would harm, I still felt like it couldn't make things worse. In addition, though, I felt obligated to demonstrate to my family that I was "trying everything," the idea being that if you don't "try everything" then you don't really want to "get better" and thus your misery is all your own fault. So that's why I took prozac in violation of my own principles. Within a few months I developed trichotillomania, disfiguring my face, and of course it harmed me in many other ways. I took it for five years then quit, probably too abruptly.
@@pjrslater I mean we had the full house didn’t we, depression, being unable to organise her self, poor diet, previous large alcohol consumption etc, throw in the sad fact she couldn’t have children and I think we’re at our answer. But to abrogate herself from unfortunate events in her life and piss poor life choices, she’s clung on to a fictional medical ailment and poof it’s not her fault anymore and the lack of children wasn’t anything she did. Simple, now times that by tens of millions of people and western culture has a big problem.
I met a university student last year who couldn't get her ADHD meds- she was very clearly suffering from withdrawal. To my mind, turning young people (regardless of diagnosis) into drug addicts is a scandal.
@@_BMS_ What are the symptoms of withdrawal, if they are addictive? Adults are also encouraged to take breaks from the meds. And some only take the med on a work day. If stopping the med was unpleasant, would they do that?
I am a psychotherapist and research psychologist and I definitely think adult ADHD is a construct of big pharma and big tech (iphones etc), as well as functioning by potentially allowing people to signify 'victimhood' and 'difference' without much of an actual opportunity cost to their status and ability to function in the white collar workplace. The rise in people applying this as a self diagnosis who I see in my work is beyond anything else I have experienced. The idea of it being 'developmental' and 'biological' rather than psychological and social allows for medication to be permanently posed as the answer and it being constructed as a problem which can never be solved.
I'm curious to know who you think it was constructed by previous to Big Pharma and Big Tech since ADHD (condition) predates both of them. I don't recall Big Tech in the 70s and 80s, unless you are suggesting my rotary phone was somehow causing these symptoms.
I was hoping for an intellectual argument. Unfortunately, this was embarrassing and must have been incredibly frustrating and tedious for Peter Hitchens.
@@pjrslater which is a common misconception because the side effects of amphetamines are supposed AdHd symptoms. It's actually quite genius of the Perdue and their "researchers" or rather their marketers.
Pick at Peter for his opinions, but calling him unintelligent is absurd. He's clearly a profound thinker and he's probably written over 10 books amongst plenty of other work in public life. I would hope you had a similar resume to be attacking his intelligence.
@@AlexanderCook87 I don't find Peter Hitchens a profound thinker. I think he sees many things in rather black and white terms. Well spoken, smart & educated however - no doubt.
If they say: "Requiring me to live as a manual laborer is against my human rights!" then they're obviously freeloading grifters. They are not entitled to cushy elite office jobs doing nothing productive, simply meeting each other and having fun in gatherings, while periodically taking 'wellness breaks' on other peoples' dime.
What you're witnessing is one 9f the symptoms of someone who has ADHD. You are watching Peter give his opinion and Kat demonstrating how real ADHD actually is.
Hitchens has zero medical qualifications and is no position to be arguing for the existence or not of any disease. He doesn't even know the medications. Only the spectator could put this nonsense on RUclips.
I’ve never been healthier since I refused all medication and decided to deal with fibromyalgia myself, with adhd being in the zeitgeist I see I have all the symptoms. I’m retired now so my attitude is hey ho and swizzle myself into yoga and put a podcast on to feed my brain. My figure has never been better and I feel great. I’ve always been called quirky anyway so I don’t care. Say no to drugs kids Edit: dear lord this woman is dangerous to children. Yes they were dishing drugs put to kids in the 90’s and it’s far worse. Thank god I dr oded to accept my son for who he was and didn’t medicate him. He’s very successful now. Also, I’m 65 and I was told I needed a new hip. I decided no.. I’m off to do the splits because I can!!! Take some personal responsibility for your life. Poor kids now 💔
Hitchens may be on the right side of the debate but he didn't make a single valid point. Peter doesn't know how to debate, he only knows how to grift with his act of the 'bumbling old intellectual'.
@@pistonburner6448what planet are you on? He got her to admit there’s no definition or evidence for it, end of debate. Seems like you don’t know how to think critically
@@unbabunga229 So, go ahead and point out a single valid argument Peter made. And no, a random woman patient not knowing how to respond to diagnosis questions is no answer to that question. Peter never debates experts or people who have any knowledge of a subject matter, he's like a pool shark who can't compete in tournaments but keeps challenging amateurs who he has observed in advance to be hopeless.
@@pistonburner6448 she’s a self proclaimed expert, she wrote a book on it, you think they got some random batty cow to debate Peter Hitchens? Are you a real person?
Back in the 80s it was fashionable to have dyslexia, nowadays it's ADHD and trans. Look, life is not easy - some people are more sensitive and have more difficulty in ordinary life than others, let's not pathologise life. Also people in the affluent Wets become addicted to having a diagnosed mental health or general health issue - strangely enough poorer people in India and Africa don't seem to have or obsess over these issues.
Wasn't fashionable, used to get so much abuse for be dyslexic but I do get what your saying these days people feel sorry for themselves about everything and blame it on a disorder.
Victimhood has always been attractive to people who fear failure. That doesn't mean that certain conditions such as ADHD or dyslexia do not exist. But it can mean that some people's biggest issue will always be victimhood.
You only have to watch Supernanny to see how certain parents haven't a clue about how to bring up their children. Playing with them is usually the start of good parenting.
@@gillianwhite1706 Supernanny is not a model of parenting that should be put forward as healthy. Please see the guidance on parenting from child psychologists and those working with children who have had any trauma, been fostered or adopted.
@@oa8420 I am a war baby - father away fighting so had little contact with me, brother sent to boarding school in the 60s - wrecked him for his adulthood years, young brother a late addition so was more like an only one - he spent 6 years in higher education which wasn't available to me due to money. I am going to do some research about the generations over 30 years before technology came into play. I watched a couple of episodes of Super Nanny and the discipline appeared to be more like the 50s. The first time I was aware of ADHD was from the 80s. I wasn't recommending Super Nanny just watched it as so many of the kids seem to have been diagnosed with ADHD - very very sad. I do wonder how much diet comes into play? I was brought up during rationing and have never liked anything sweet!
Kat was behaving as if Peter wasn't even there. Talking ceaselessly, not allowing for Peter to take her up on anything she was saying, then when he was talking she'd interrupt and continue to talk over him. I don't think that's ADHD, I think that's called being rude.
To be fair, I think it was a problem with her software rather than a deliberate choice to be rude. To put it simply, on a lot of audio software, the default option is to make it so that when you speak into your mic, you can't hear any audio. It seems she genuinely didn't know that others were speaking. Normally when someone is speaking over someone else, they repeat themselves, talk louder, and talk quicker, but she didn't do any of those things and instead maintained a constant pace. So either she is an incredibly composed orator, or her software was messed up. I assume the latter
I find it fascinating to listen to this woman, Kat, and hear the endless repetition of the terms: 'my', 'me' 'mine', 'I', 'feeling'. I wonder what crossover there is between narcissistic personality disorder and ADHD. It seems that most people learn, to some extent, to do what they need to do (to survive/thrive), what they must do (job, family etc) often despite the way they feel. What I hear Kat describe is a lack of that capability - which she conveniently manages using chemical substances.
Hitchens cites a DRAFT NIH statement. Actual statement is as follows; "Although an independent diagnostic test for ADHD does not exist, there is evidence supporting the validity of the disorder. Further research is needed on the dimensional aspects of ADHD, as well as the comorbid (coexisting) conditions present in both childhood and adult forms." The original source can be found by googling "Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). NIH Consensus Statement". We should note that (i) the original statement DOES support the validity of the diagnosis, and (ii) it is now 25 years old. And this is his main source of evidence?
He has a habit of cherry picking sections of studies to support his deluded assertions. As you say the study is literally ancient, and lots of research has been done since this source, that's how medicine develops. He has a biased opinion and found one line in a bit of work that supports it and has run with it. God even at university we are told not to use sources more then 5 years old. Personally, I think it is dangerous having someone in the public eye making statements about something that they have no knowledge in and/or not qualified in. There was so many false and misleading points from him it was kind of getting annoying. Peter leave it to the experts mate.
The argument is a lack of objective evidence, of the kind which is rarely if ever present in clinical psychology literature. It doesn't help to straw-man Hitchens' argument by pretending it rests on something he mentioned off-hand. You're merely beating the normative drum - precisely as the APA teaches, I suppose.
@@gessie There is plenty of objective evidence that traits related to what we call "ADHD" are highly heritable, and therefore genetically determined. If you go on google scholar you will find literally hundreds of studies which demonstrate this. The big societal questions about whether to label it, how to label it, whether to help people with these traits, and how, e.g. via behavioural means or medication, are very much open to debate. But Hitchens' starting from the assumption that this is a "made up" condition is combination of ignorance, arrogance and willful misdirection of the most appalling kind. No disrespect to the female journalist, but if Hitchens had debated an actual scientist who is also a skillful science communicator they would have torn him to shreds.
@@Heffiemonster A fair response, but you've implied my point: "Traits related to what we call ADHD". That's not objective evidence of an illness, or of the medication being effective and so on. It's mostly normative semantics. Once you define it as an illness, you can find things related to it but that's irrelevant - the question is if it's an illness and if it needs harsh medication being fed to young children.
it’s interesting to see how ADHD awareness has exploded online, but it does raise questions about over-diagnosis and whether everyone getting meds truly needs them. it’s good that more people are recognizing the condition, but we gotta be careful not to jump on the bandwagon too quickly without thorough understanding. awareness is great, but accurate diagnosis and treatment are key!
Does adult ADHD exist? What a strange question. To assume it only exists in children would be ridiculous. Whether or not it "exists" is also a stupid question. If people struggle with executive functioning (a prerequisite for success in this society), struggle with impulse control, struggle with calming their minds and struggle to pay attention, struggle with consistency and follow through and they seek help for those things, does it matter what you call it or whether it "exists" in some biology sense?
It’s a fact that some people struggle with impulse control. It’s not a fact that all those people should be labelled as having ADHD, and need to be treated with drugs.
@@ERobbins1234 in that they all revolve around executive function and the prefrontal cortex they are certainly related. But they're clearly not the same. An understanding of basic English will help you with that
People with adhd need help with concentrating for things that regular people find easy to manage. It's not just helpful doing thkngs ypu don't want to do, it's helpful managing day to day self care. That's why it's a condition because it effects your ability to libe ypur life effectively. Has it been over prescribed, yes many psychiatrists are bad at what they do but that doesn't mean adhd doesn't exist
I have to say I'm surprised that you'd have a patient who was suffering problems to defend their medical problems. Hitchens should be either debating a doctor, or a doctor should be the one across from the lady.
Why would a doctor have anything especially interesting or pertinent to say about an alleged complaint that has no objective symptoms? Doctors are supposed to diagnose actual diseases and prescribe treatment for them. Their procedures are based upon hard science, and their authority comes from their earning in medical science. If they lend their support to a subjective claim such as this, then they forfeit their medical authority.
Mr. Hitchens did very well to put his argument forward for Ms Brown to consider. I do hope when she reviews the interaction she will be more amenable to persuading herself to be drug free.
Bottom line, she doesn't want to take responsibility for the things she isn't good at, it is soooo much easier to say "I have a condition, it isn't my fault".
It's not surprising, in a way, that she's so rude. She needs to believe in the pseudoscience and she needs you to pretend as well because, otherwise, she's just a drug addict. Peter's right though.
Never date a woman who claims she has ADHD and is prescribed stimulants for the condition unless you want to play the role of The Exorcist in the relationship.
I went to school in an era before ADHD & ADDD were a common thing. I remember some kids who displayed the signs of these conditions. So I really think there is something that is affecting a small number of people. Whether this is environmental factors or whether this is something that has been in some humans for millennia, who knows. I do believe it is being massively over diagnosed as ADHD or ADDD though, because everyone wins, except the misdiagnosed person. The parents win because their child's problems aren't the parents' a result of how the child was brought up. They also win in that they don't have a kid who doesn't behave as other children do, the child has a 'condition'. The pharmaceutical companies obviously win because drugs equals profits. Medical research wins because there are funds available for research. Even the government wins, because it masks the damage done by decades of underfunding of the education system.
Everything this woman says supports Hitchens and the fact that ADHD diagnoses are for people who’ve convinced themselves that they are special. difficulty focusing is a normal human characteristic. Get over yourself.
She knows that she underwent an assessment, but she didn't undergo an fMRI scan because those are presumably quite rare, so it would be hard for her to argue on that scientific point.
It occurs to me that every condition like ADHD etc. doesn't take account of the condition of "normal" people. She lists how she felt she had to work harder than others as a symptom... I beg to ask, just how does she know how hard the non-ADHD people felt they had to work? This is 100% subjective and assumes that others have it "easier" than you do, and it is just wrong. Peter is so right about the subjectivity of this condition. I see this with people writing books about serial killers for example, they assume that no normal people had terrible, abusive, violent, disrupted childhoods and it just isn't so.
You raise a valid point, but as someone diagnosed with ADHD, I can offer some insight. For me, tasks often take much longer to complete compared to others because I tend to overthink every step and consider every possible scenario. Many people don’t have to deal with this constant over analysis. Those with ADHD can easily get distracted, sidetracked, and procrastinate to the extent that it becomes a significant issue. For example, in the workplace, a typical person might simply perform a task without much thought, whereas someone with ADHD has to work hard to get into the right mindset, struggle to stay focused, get distracted, and often end up starting less urgent tasks instead of tackling the main one. This struggle extends to many areas of life because, regardless of intelligence, academic ability, or diligence, the lack of dopamine can significantly hinder the process-unless hyper-focus kicks in. Hyper-focus is when a person with ADHD becomes so engrossed in an activity that it provides a continuous dopamine boost, driving them to complete the task because it is intrinsically rewarding. One reason people fail to validate the condition is that its symptoms-like losing items, forgetting appointments, or losing focus-are things everyone experiences occasionally. The critical difference for those with ADHD is the frequency and intensity of these symptoms, to the point where they become a constant barrier in daily life. It’s not just about occasionally misplacing something or being forgetful; it’s the daily battle of trying to keep everything together while masking the struggle and making excuses to avoid being seen as lazy or careless. the things you don't see are the real struggles. People with ADHD can put in immense effort, stay focused, and still end up forgetting, misplacing things, or getting sidetracked. Even with tools like timers, to-do lists, or digital reminders like Alexa, staying on track is an ongoing challenge. It can be disheartening to observe friends or family who seem to effortlessly manage their tasks, maintain routines, and succeed without overthinking, highlighting the stark contrast in how differently ADHD impacts those who live with it. I have spoken to many who do not have the same barriers as I do.
@@junipajen This post deserves to be posted as a main comment, not buried away as a reply far down the page. It very accurately describes the struggle. Unfortunately, the majority of people posting here still won't believe it. You almost have to have the condition or at least observe it in someone close to you to even understand it exists!
@@junipajen Dopamine production has a lot to do with lifestyle, diet, use of social media, etc. What I see in people with supposedly ADHD is that they tend to have a terrible diet, which alone could account for "ADHD". And the reality is there are a lot of people who say that diet and lifestyle improves their symptoms. So either you can get proactive, or you can be passively taking drugs or using "ADHD" as an excuse for everything.
@@sonicbloomtuts Drugs are only one method to counter act the issues with ADHD, diet + exercise can be another, but not all things work for everyone. I know people who exercise regularly and have very healthy diets, but still struggle with their ADHD. I also know others who are terrible at both and don't have any neurological disorders. I do think you are correct that lifestyle/diet/social media can exacerbate the condition, but ADHD predates all of these things so I don't see how it is the cause. Additionally, people with ADHD have trouble maintaining exercise and diet routines, so you might be promoting the symptom to the cause.
@@rosaob5842 it’s like the so called autistic ‘spectrum.’ They took a real thing that people suffer from and expanded it to encapsulate quite a lot of human behaviour and experience. I don’t care at this point whether someone is self diagnosed or diagnosed by a doctor. Who set out these parameters? Big Pharma, particularly in the US, is known to be corrupt and to have corrupted thr medical field. Why people are so keen to believe something that has a clear agenda is very odd to me. I say this as someone who feels anxiety more than they don’t. But I recognise it’s a self fulfilling prophecy- I think of myself as an anxious person, so I feel that feeling. I’ve identified with a feeling that everyone experiences. That’s something I need to work on- to say that’s a disorder I or others have takes personal responsibility away. Why would you even try to improve, if u think u have a disorder that u will always have? It’s like when people blame being late now as ‘time blindness.’ - it’s not their fault that they’re late, it’s some disorder they have. 🙄
Schizophrenia is too and Bipolar..... mental hospitals should be closed down and a sign redirecting them to you, the knower of knowers 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 ignorance, now there's something I know I can always get a chuckle out of. Thanks for your lack of intelligence 🙏
A lifelong disability that it took you 38 years to work out you had it. Strangely, I have never heard of people with actual disabilities, say cystic fibrosis or blindness, say it took them 38 years to work out that they had it. Not every flaw in human character is a disability. She might have a hard time holding down a job because of psychological flaws. I have a hard time regulating my sugar intake due to a psychological flaw. Should I acknowledge my gluttony as a flaw to be dealt with through my own violation, or should I absolve myself of responsibility and expect to receive benefits for my supposed disability, whilst indulging rather than addressing my failings in personality? Because that is the practical consequence of saying ADHD is a disability. We pay ludicrous sums of money to people who can claim they or their kids have ADHD, absolve themselves of any requirement to contribute economically, and excuse their poor behaviour. As someone who works in the benefits system, I can assure you, this does not lead to positive outcomes. Sure, some people are inattentive and ill disciplined. Those failings should be dealt with by the usual incentive structures and we should be willing to punish bad behaviour. They should not be absolved of responsibility and financially rewarded for their poor behaviour. This is not something like paranoid schizophrenia where the psychological defect is not amenable to correction through normal incentives.
@@notalefty999 one cannot jump into another persons brain and compare and contrast to know if there is a difference. I cannot visualise (almost zero) but had no idea anyone could. I assumed 'visualising' was a metaphor or term of phrase. There is a high amount of people with ADHD who end up in prison. There is also evidence that an ADHD brain makes for some of the best hunters in hunter gatherer times. There is discipline and knowing how to discipline a condition. Check out Dr. Russell Barkley. He is a no messing, blunt, expert on ADHD since 1976. The condition has been known about for 100 years now.
I have several children in my family with ADHD (moderate/severe diagnoses) and none of them has ever been offered medication or has the issue of medication been discussed.
I find it very suspicious that ADHD is given attention and taken seriously with a very vague list of conditions but the serious psychiactric disorders that ruin people's lives are brushed under the carpet.
Do you know about Abigail Shrier and her new book Bad Therapy? I haven't read it but have watched her interviews about it. One of the main observations she makes is that there simply is no way to truly help people who have the most severe problems so the industry just pretends that almost everyone needs their "services" and has used propaganda (my opinion now) to cast its net wider and wider and, most significantly, to capture younger and younger and younger victims. I believe "therapy" is about 99% gaslighting. The drugs obviously do harm, not good. I don't understand how anyone thinks drugging is a solution or a good idea.
Thank you!!!!! A lot of psychiatrists are very troubled but this but as you can see, some of these ADHD believers are absolutely rabid about their diagnosis and the excuses it provides them with!!!
There is nothing vague about ADHD symptoms and you would not say that if you experienced. It ruins people's lives and can lead to suicide. It causes people to lose numerous opportunities if untreated through a lack of motivation, insomnia, anxiety and depression. So what is your evidence base for making your comments.
I have the same symptoms described by Kat, but put them down to being high in the psychological trait "neuroticism"; a dysfunctional upbringing and being unmarried and childless.
I struggle sometimes with executive functions. I believe, if I could get an appointment with a doctor treating ADHD, or ADD. I'd be diagnosed with it. At university, I'd frequently have poor planning, and would procrastinate.. I didn't end up with a good degree. My lecturers told me my application was poor, and when they'd speak with me. I would be able to demonstrate a level of understanding of the subject level, if not, greater than those teaching me the subject. I believe this is an issue with everyone, everywhere. And the symptoms people quote sound so generic. They could be applied to everyone I know.
Yeah, until they discovered why some bad behaviour might exist eg ADHD or Asperges (both are very similar) Don't get me wrong, just because one may have either of these conditions does NOT mean bad behaviour is ok. The point is to understand and manage the self better and be 'better behaved' as a result. NOT used a condition as an excuse for not trying and giving everyone else with these conditions a bad name.
Ms Brown mentions that she takes a low dose stimulant and a beta blocker, plus an antidepressant. Would the stimulant not itself potentiate hyperactivity with the beta blocker essentially countering the effect of the stimulant so that these two agents, at least in part, cancel each other out? Additionally, would the hyperactivity element she describes in itself contribute to some degree of so-called 'attention deficit'? Binge eating could be partly due to stimulant use but also might be a result of depression; the latter might, of course, also contribute to attention deficit. In some children, normal boisterous activity might lead to perceived lack of focus on more sedentary activities, such as reading and homework, but this has ever been thus and is not usually indicative of any pathology. While some clinical syndrome might be present in an extremely small proportion of the child/juvenile population, I feel that relatively recent substantial increases in ADHD diagnosis 'medicalise' features of growing-up that are generally quite normal. Indeed, a study by Kazda L et al., title: 'Overdiagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Children and Adolescents: A Systematic Scoping Review', published in JAMA Network Open in 2021 [4(4):e215335]. found that ADHD has been both overdiagnosed and overtreated.
Yup. My doctor also told me that the stimulants should be avoided by people disposed to depression because they exasperate the symptoms. And, of course, your anxiety would be worse if you are hopped up on speed. Her psychiatrist is extremely irresponsible for treating her in this manner.
@@vanessac1721 you cannot take every single person and apply the same rule each time. Care has to be given on a patient by patient basis as medicine is not as simple as that. At all steps you need to balance the risks vs the benefits. Sounds like your dr has given a just a broad blanket statement but it may not apply to every patient. Furthermore a GP refers to a psychiatrist as they are much more qualified in the respective field to make those judgment calls.
She was a binge drinking alcoholic and binge eater and nobody knew why she couldn't conceive a baby? She did IVF BEFORE giving up the drink??? Sounds like she was on anxiety and depression meds then too before her ADHD stuff, which are also linked to infertility!
ADHD is over-diagnosed but it is a recognisable disorder. Most mental health diagnsoes are not based on a physcial test but rather an assessment with subjective and objective observations combined with a detailed history and mental state exam. The issue with ADHD is that much of its criteria are seen in the normal human experience. However it can be classified and treated as a mental disorder if it sufficiently disruptive to the persons quality of life. The treatment can compromise pharmacological and non pharmacological strategies. As with all mental health diagnoses the treatment impact should be reviewed regularly both for benefit and potential adverse outcomes.
@@_BMS_ no it is not the “inability to focus on tedious tasks” that is a diagnostic criterion for ADHD at all; you are missing two key aspects for a diagnosis (why this is best left to experts). Namely, that there must be several factors/symptoms at play all at once (inability to focus on “tasks” in general, tedious or otherwise, is but one of them), but secondly and most importantly, these issues must be serious, pervasive, and permanent. They don’t chop and change with the wind, whether one is at work or home, whether the task is tedious or otherwise etc. Your premise is incorrect and disingenuous, but if you truly believe it, I can see why you are cynical about the condition in general.
@@_BMS_ medicine rarely deals in true objectives, and virtually never in psychiatry. By definition a psychiatric doctor is assuming how someone is “thinking” and “feeling” which is subjectivity itself. The goal of the person approaching the healthcare professional is to get help for something that is affecting them in a negative way. Why should you or I be the gatekeepers of what is an “actual” mental health disorder, and what does that even mean? I’m not sure how you can suggest that because someone manages by sheer hard work or good luck, that they can’t have struggled with some kind of “atypical” neurological function? Surely it is more important to acknowledge that millions of people state they have this same experience, and at least try to understand it better? There is an argument to be made about the financial implications of these assessments and treatments, but how does someone else’s medical diagnosis have any bearing on mine or your achievements at all?
@@Spv1627Very well said! I might also add that some activities can be focused on but the person typically does not get to choose what these are. Thanks for your objectivity and balance.
Circular logic init? A tautology. There are records of leading psychiatrists who developed the diagnosis of ADHD in the USA, which received large amounts of money from the USA. One of the most successful child and adolescent psychiatrists in the UK runs a drug and diagnosus free clinics, and many of the clients would get and ADHD in other clinics. His clinics get peoole better in about 2 years, never to return, whereas in other clinics they never get better. The meds tend to wear off and are physically damaging, however as long as adults know this I am fine with them taking it. It should be banned for children.
18:08 "ADHD is not an objective diagnosis due to no actual physical observable event or objective test". To this I say, 'I agree'. But also, I disagree. Unlike epilepsy, ADHD has no rigid definition, but that's not sufficient to say whether something does or does not exist (at risk of being polarizing and distracting from my actual point, I could give the example of gender). So what is ADHD? Like most neurodivergent pathologies, it's a collection of symptoms that are extreme variations in the human condition. The idea is that by collecting a list of common symptoms shared by a group of people and giving it a name, we can then use it to direct similar people to a common solution. The best description of this is 'The Autism Constellation' by 'No Boilerplate' where he describes autism (another vague neurodivergence) as a constellation of behaviors that can be used to help people navigate. ruclips.net/video/DhY3fu-YgHU/видео.html The point of this is that, while ADHD is not objective, it is useful. It does help people. If it is helping people fix bad behaviors, then it is a good thing. (not the opposite of this is also true. If it is being used to justify those bad behaviors, it is a bad thing).
I am concerned about over diagnosis of ADHD. However, Hichens arguments are badly made. Peoples experience with adhd are, by their very nature, subjective. So asking for “objective physical proof” in this case really is dumb science. I have 2 teenage daughters, the youngest clearly has some kind of issue (although very hard working, great grades, great results and soon heading off to uni) which has made and is making life very hard for her. Consequently, we have dived deeply into this subject (I have a biology degree and have been very interested in neurology since my teens, my late brother had complex neural disorders causing him to violently fit (not violent, large, dangerous to him fits) and other disorders from birth, all diagnosable even in the 60s). I think there is significant cross over between adhd and what we could call “normal” behaviour. But, the things I’ve observed in my child are not due to lack of effort, control, intelligence or self awareness. Asking her to do or not do certain things would be like asking a man with a broken leg to run a mile. This is an area that needs more understanding and it’s a shame that Peter doesn’t appreciate that things are true or false just because he thinks so. I notice he has no problems believing not just in god, but a particular god and a particular religion. In this area he is perfectly happy to ignore the need for “objective physical” evidence. Very disappointing how many people in the comments misrepresent her argument and behaviour.
This is happening with adult autism. The very basic joke of a screening process she went through is my experience of how easy it is to get a adult autism diagnosis.
You can't debate with someone who is convinced medication is the solution. When I was at a school with 1600 pupils, 40 yrs ago, we had one problem child. He obviously had issues and was very bright when I had a conversation with him, which stunned me. Now that school would have a classroom specially for ADHD sufferers. Medicating children can't be the answer, surely?
That's part of the debate that needs science, not Hitchens vs.... I don't know what to call her. If you look at autism; in the 60s we believed about 1/2000 people were autistic. We now understand it is closer to 1/40. Of course ADHD need not being the same. But you get my point?
@@dhayes3963 Indeed. Some people seem to think the attention and focus enhancing effects of caffeine increase as you increase the dosage. That isn't true. She was most likely drinking far too much coffee leading to scattered thinking, anxiety and the inevitable "comedown" depression of abusing a stimulant.
Got to admire PH and his composure during this interview. His mere administration of common sense is enough to refute the lady's argument. Drugs are harmful, and this is the moral of the story that she didn't want to take on board
For five years I was a supervisory assistant in an infant and junior school. I observed a 7 year old boy displaying repetitive behaviours, such as touching the ground before a kicking a football, bringing his knee up to his nose just before kicking a football and fuddling with his pants as if continuously pulling his pants out if his backside. No matter how we spoke to him he wouldn’t do as he was told and just completely ignored you. I found out that he was on medication for ADHD. From my experience he seemed like he was displaying early OCD symptoms, not ADHD. I had experience of OCD as my 26 year old daughter had been diagnosed with OCD (Pure O type) She had displayed similar symptoms as a child and with hindsight I now realised what she was going through. She was tormented with bad thoughts and in turn behaved quite badly at school because she was too young to process her thoughts. She is now 30 and her condition is well managed, but it took a specialist OCD Psychologist, which we had to pay for, to diagnose and advise her.
I remember watching that sitcom Frazier and the character Niels expresses that he has found the best patient that suffers from numerous life time aliments... He(Niels) has found the crack pot(jack pot).
My personal take is that whilst I'm sure there are many people kern to put a label on things, and some will happily make money from it, I feel we neglect that with things like smartphones, WiFi, on demand tv and well tailored algorithms, the modern environment can be more able to steal ones attention, and of course some will be more prone to that. Similar to Peter though, I am not sure that pathologising the individual is accurate or helpful.
Absolutely agree. So ADHD would be psychological. I would add that the effects of smartphones, WiFi etc. have been shown in studies to have physiological effects, at least on rats. My experience is that I have electrohypersensitivity and have proven that it is physiological, ADHD could be another form of electrohypersensitivity, physiological! Until we start dissecting the brains of ADHD children, we cannot be sure. A precautionary approach is advised. See Dr Semmelweis history.
@@jonp3216 took a bit of scrolling, but yes, I found it. I understand causation is very difficult to prove, but I feel that hypothesis seems very plausible.
Then why does diagnosis require evidence of the behaviours dating back to childhood under the age of 12 years, which for many many people this means well before the internet existed. For those not well informed on the matter the behavioural symptoms must have a significant and detrimental impact on many areas of the patient's life.
I think this quasi-conversation shown it very well that some people find an urge to take drugs and misbehave totally irresistible. I.E. like not listening to other side arguments and not addressing the points being made. ADHD it way too convenient an excuse to demonstrate at least some sociopathic traits and get away with it.
No, but people who have ADHD can be really annoying. That's why it's harder for them as a group to keep friends, stay in relationships. "It's not the person who suffers from ADHD, but the family, friends and people around them!"
She was so pushy I just couldn't take anything she said seriously. She put me off listening to her, while Hitchens remained calm and measured. She came across as slightly hysterical.
@@bobjames6622 You are extremely misogynistic bob. Peter Hitchens was the only hysterical person. He was trying to create a problem where none exists and where he could not illustrate a problem and then made an absolutely moronic comment about putting ritalin in the water that nobody would ever suggest and he is an absolute disgrace because he as been told people get medication only AFTER a diagnosis. He is essential coming a hate crime against a group of extremely vulnerable people based don his own ignorance of the mind, psychology and the philosophy of mind and science.
Must never forget that medicine and the pharmaceutical industry is a profit-making industry. They need to have ongoing illnesses and new illnesses to guarantee their future. Interesting that she says part of her 'therapy' is eating well with healthy food. Who needs to be told that, only people looking for 'professionals' to define and direct their lives, not oneself.
![Six Hundred Strike [EPIC: The Musical] Full Animatic](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zov6NXIAuow/mqdefault.jpg)
Well done spectator! Ground breaking journalism. Let’s discuss ADHD without one neuroscientist or psychiatrist in the conversation. Who needs experts when we have a random lady who likely has been misdiagnosed as her account sounds more like chronic personality/mood disorder picture, and our regular pundit Peter Hitchens who is willing to speak on anything and everything
Isn't that like asking a big oil salesman his thoughts on the climate emergency?
@@DaboooogA no, this just goes to show your ignorance on the topic. I work with some brilliant psychiatrists in the NHS, and I am yet to come across anyone who has diagnosed a child with ADHD in my service, despite incredibly pushy and demanding parents, and we’re talking thousands of patients here. We nearly always err on the side of caution and discover that the difficulties are usually linked to ACEs/trauma/intergenerational mental health issues etc. I think you’ll find the problems with over diagnosing and medicating occur in the private sector where there is a profit incentive.
@@Saharah253 yet you always need more money...
Kat needed the ADHD diagnosis partly as an excuse to keep talking over people
I am sorry a hip replacement was necessary at 40.
😂
😂
@@mzmoth 😂😂
Her supplies must have been running low
Symptoms of ADHD according to NHS's website:
Inattentiveness (difficulty concentrating and focusing)
The main signs of inattentiveness are:
having a short attention span and being easily distracted
making careless mistakes - for example, in schoolwork
appearing forgetful or losing things
being unable to stick to tasks that are tedious or time-consuming
appearing to be unable to listen to or carry out instructions
constantly changing activity or task
having difficulty organising tasks
Hyperactivity and impulsiveness
The main signs of hyperactivity and impulsiveness are:
being unable to sit still, especially in calm or quiet surroundings
constantly fidgeting
being unable to concentrate on tasks
excessive physical movement
excessive talking
being unable to wait their turn
acting without thinking
interrupting conversations
little or no sense of danger
Makes me think that the government may be suffering from ADHD.
@@benadams8454 Autism in the case of Starmer and Reeves. They both seem to lack a theory of mind.
It's the description of being a kid
this sounds like a list if poor behaviour from people with weak willed parents
I worked in mental health on and off for 40 years. One thing I have noticed is how among people with personality disorders, ranging from relatively mild narcissism through to full on dangerous psychopaths, is how their behaviours have followed 'fads'. When I started, few people had eating disorders. Around 1979/80, I recall a couple of programmes on TV about anorexia nervosa and articles about Carol Carpenter. Within 12 months, the acute wards of psychiatric hospitals were full of such people. A little later, Munchausen Syndrome got a bit of an outing in the press. Low and behold, a few months later, we had our wards full of such people. ADHD and all the other alphabetty spaghetti disorders have all had their time in the sun over the past four decades. The current trans explosion is another reflection of this. However, I think in this case a small number of quite dangerous psychopaths are leading the field in this presentation of disorder. I'm not saying that these people do not have a mental health disorder; they do. But by and large they have the same disorder that was rightly grouped under the narcissistic personality disorder 40+ years ago. The problem with mental health issues is that the terminology used often becomes a term of abuse, and increasingly, because we do not want to label people as either ‘mad’ or ‘bad’, we pretend these behaviours are OK and not destructive to the individual or the people around them.
Eating disorders are the result of a cognitive view of oneself. It's easy for some to develop such disorder through peer pressure, trauma or even brainwashing. ADHD is a neurological disorder and is not in the same category as Bulimia or Munchausen. For someone who works in healthcare, you cannot even grasp Psychology at the GCSE level.
ADHD in itself is not a mental health disorder!
interesting perspective. it’s true that mental health diagnoses can sometimes reflect societal trends, and the way we talk about them changes over time. but it’s also important to recognize the real struggles people face, regardless of how “popular” a diagnosis is. labeling can definitely be harmful if it’s not handled carefully, but dismissing legitimate conditions as just trends doesn’t help either. there’s gotta be a balance between understanding new information and not jumping to conclusions.
You have nailed it. If only you could get your message out there without being locked up.
Sorry to point it out but your recall isn't that flash - her name is Karen Carpenter.
Peter Hitchens has the most incredible tolerance to complete nonsense.
Peter hitchens is one of the most intolerable bigots mankind has created.
He must, otherwise he wouldn't be able to spout such incredibly intolerant nonsense all the time. I'm surprised we can tolerate it in fact
@@billyliar1614 what "intolerant nonsense " did he spout?
@@iphang-ishordavid2954 Where do you want me to start. Too much. Hitchens is basically a Victorian, and like many in the UK fetishes the era, that era of cold showers, industrial slavery, compulsory Sunday Service, sexual repression, knowing one's place and child labour. Just one disapproving flare of his nostrils says it all. In this video, he is trying feebly to use the 'critical method' to deny the existence of mental health much as those 'right-thinking' Victorians might have done when condemning the unwell to Bedlam, the work house or the prison system. His entire life has been wasted boring everyone to death trying to revive Victoriana , and he's made a good living out of preaching to the converted. - There is no 'objective physical test' for any mental health condition, including Schizoprenia. He's basically (it would seem) of the opinion that it's all made up and that sufferers are nothing more than malingerers. As I said, the Victorian governess brought into modern day
Well he did spew complete nonsense for some 20 mins so I'm guessing he's developed a tollerance.
Every time she opened her mouth she brought up another condition from which she suffers, infertility, epilepsy, depression, hip replacement, and the list goes on. She's a walking medical dictionary.
😂
I've had some doubts about ADHD tbh,, that woman has said absolutely nothing which dispel those doubts 😂, God bless Mr Hitchens, very patient
I guarantee she is childless and therefore unsatisfied as an adult woman, ergo she has become neurotic and self absorbed.
@@deejay1169 it's pretty obvious what's wrong with her
Desperate to be a victim. Like most women 😇
The big pharma playbook in 3 steps:
1. Make up a disease
2. List as many symptoms as possible so that as many people as possible can be 'diagnosed'
3. Prescribe drug for disease
Spot on.
Lots of bs "umbrella" terms in modern doctoring.
psychiatry especially bc it's all made up and easy to make up more
And when the patent runs out, come up with something new 😊
A drug that the victim will need to take forever.
I've had a lifetime of anxiety attacks, fears and phobias, and I don't take any medication, thankfully. Caffeine triggers a lot of it and there are many things that exacerbate it. I'm sure I could easily get a diagnosis for several trending conditions and medication, but I don't believe they exist. I function normally, I joke about my oddities and I think this is who I am.
Same ❤
Good for you! I applaud you for that.
I believe "therapy" (in quotes because it's undefined / we don't know what the word means) causes so much harm that it is responsible for a lot of people taking psych drugs. That was my experience when I was 21 and it's not possible I am the only person / teenager for whom this was the path. Years of talk "therapy" only made me worse because "therapy" was actually gaslighting and psychological abuse by way of reality denialism and other tactics. It only left me more despairing for my future. It left me believing my future was already gone and hopeless, and so, in that state of mind, I relented and "decided" to take prozac, something I was completely against. I do not believe in taking a drug to solve your non-medical problems. But I was in the "nothing to lose" mindset, believing all was already lost, anyway, so even though I knew it would not help and probably would harm, I still felt like it couldn't make things worse. In addition, though, I felt obligated to demonstrate to my family that I was "trying everything," the idea being that if you don't "try everything" then you don't really want to "get better" and thus your misery is all your own fault. So that's why I took prozac in violation of my own principles. Within a few months I developed trichotillomania, disfiguring my face, and of course it harmed me in many other ways. I took it for five years then quit, probably too abruptly.
Not that I needed it, but Kat has just perfectly summed up why ADHD is a man made construct. Thanks Kat.
Actually the way she spoke clearly demonstrated its existence.
@@pjrslater I mean we had the full house didn’t we, depression, being unable to organise her self, poor diet, previous large alcohol consumption etc, throw in the sad fact she couldn’t have children and I think we’re at our answer. But to abrogate herself from unfortunate events in her life and piss poor life choices, she’s clung on to a fictional medical ailment and poof it’s not her fault anymore and the lack of children wasn’t anything she did. Simple, now times that by tens of millions of people and western culture has a big problem.
Maybe she has just shown how some peoples biggest issue will always be victimhood. And done no favours to the rest of us. 🤷
@@pjrslaterthe way she spoke demonstrated the negative effects of amphetamines.
@@pjrslater, that's not how objective scientific discovery and diagnosis works.
I met a university student last year who couldn't get her ADHD meds- she was very clearly suffering from withdrawal. To my mind, turning young people (regardless of diagnosis) into drug addicts is a scandal.
Ever heard of the Opioide Crisis.... you are a potential customer, that is how some in that industry see every person on the planet.
@@rivka8576 or maybe she was suffering from ADHD.
@@rivka8576 (most?) ADHD medication is known not to be addictive, by the way.
ADHD meds are not addictive. Doctors routinely recommend that you periodically take a break from them.. What were her symptoms?
@@_BMS_ What are the symptoms of withdrawal, if they are addictive? Adults are also encouraged to take breaks from the meds. And some only take the med on a work day. If stopping the med was unpleasant, would they do that?
I am a psychotherapist and research psychologist and I definitely think adult ADHD is a construct of big pharma and big tech (iphones etc), as well as functioning by potentially allowing people to signify 'victimhood' and 'difference' without much of an actual opportunity cost to their status and ability to function in the white collar workplace. The rise in people applying this as a self diagnosis who I see in my work is beyond anything else I have experienced. The idea of it being 'developmental' and 'biological' rather than psychological and social allows for medication to be permanently posed as the answer and it being constructed as a problem which can never be solved.
I'm curious to know who you think it was constructed by previous to Big Pharma and Big Tech since ADHD (condition) predates both of them. I don't recall Big Tech in the 70s and 80s, unless you are suggesting my rotary phone was somehow causing these symptoms.
Over diagnosis of anything in the USA is going to be an issue as money can be made from it.
@@nicko8118 so you're not actually qualified in the field, nor have you participated in CPD about the matter. And people are paying you for advice? 🙄
The thing is, once they start taking the pills they become addicted to the amphetamines and will defend that addiction to the death.
@@pjrslater the diagnosis does not predate pharma. It was created by it.
I was hoping for an intellectual argument. Unfortunately, this was embarrassing and must have been incredibly frustrating and tedious for Peter Hitchens.
LET PETER SPEAK!
Unfortunately, a side effect of amphetamines is nonstop talking.
Unfortunately a symptom of ADHD is unregulated speech.
@@pjrslater which is a common misconception because the side effects of amphetamines are supposed AdHd symptoms. It's actually quite genius of the Perdue and their "researchers" or rather their marketers.
Can blame being rude on made-up adult ADHD. It's great.
@@pjrslater she seemed to be able to stop talking after she finished her passive aggressive rants. Strange that init.
Unfortunately, the ability to speak confidently and articulately in a posh accent is often confused with intelligence.
@@stephenaustin3026 That's very true, but not pertinent in this instance.
How is that relevant to this conversation?
While Peter has a posh accent but his points were ignorant, banal and prejudicial. So I assume you were referring to him.
Pick at Peter for his opinions, but calling him unintelligent is absurd. He's clearly a profound thinker and he's probably written over 10 books amongst plenty of other work in public life. I would hope you had a similar resume to be attacking his intelligence.
@@AlexanderCook87 I don't find Peter Hitchens a profound thinker. I think he sees many things in rather black and white terms. Well spoken, smart & educated however - no doubt.
Wow she's rude. I get the feeling she is self diagnosing and won't leave any Dr alone without some kind of meds or further tests.
She's a Munchausen
💯
If they say: "Requiring me to live as a manual laborer is against my human rights!" then they're obviously freeloading grifters. They are not entitled to cushy elite office jobs doing nothing productive, simply meeting each other and having fun in gatherings, while periodically taking 'wellness breaks' on other peoples' dime.
The censorship on RUclips is astounding once again.
Yea I get that vibe too. Probably just neurosis and self absorption.
It's kind of part of our culture now.
What you're witnessing is one 9f the symptoms of someone who has ADHD. You are watching Peter give his opinion and Kat demonstrating how real ADHD actually is.
Hitch slaying this "debate" is his sleep.. as he stares in the abyss / carpet.
Mr Hitchins was very polite and showed much constraint given her fragile mental state. Well done sir.
Maybe thos snob Hitchin does not understand ADHDers do have fragile mental state.
Hitchens has zero medical qualifications and is no position to be arguing for the existence or not of any disease. He doesn't even know the medications. Only the spectator could put this nonsense on RUclips.
I’ve never been healthier since I refused all medication and decided to deal with fibromyalgia myself, with adhd being in the zeitgeist I see I have all the symptoms. I’m retired now so my attitude is hey ho and swizzle myself into yoga and put a podcast on to feed my brain. My figure has never been better and I feel great. I’ve always been called quirky anyway so I don’t care. Say no to drugs kids
Edit: dear lord this woman is dangerous to children. Yes they were dishing drugs put to kids in the 90’s and it’s far worse. Thank god I dr oded to accept my son for who he was and didn’t medicate him. He’s very successful now.
Also, I’m 65 and I was told I needed a new hip. I decided no.. I’m off to do the splits because I can!!!
Take some personal responsibility for your life.
Poor kids now 💔
This was just an interview of Hitchens with a live example of the problem at hand…
Spot on
This is perfect timing; I was looking for a definition of self-obsessed and then I saw kat, her glasses and heard her speak for a minute, got it...
The lady’s arguments are weak. Bottom line, you’re giving speed to kids. That is wrong
Im pretty sure amphetamines are not a first line medication for children diagnosed with ADHD in the UK.
Hitchen's is right on this. She sounds like a massive victim that's hooked on drugs for a problem that doesn't exist.
Hitchens may be on the right side of the debate but he didn't make a single valid point. Peter doesn't know how to debate, he only knows how to grift with his act of the 'bumbling old intellectual'.
@@pistonburner6448what planet are you on? He got her to admit there’s no definition or evidence for it, end of debate.
Seems like you don’t know how to think critically
@@unbabunga229 So, go ahead and point out a single valid argument Peter made. And no, a random woman patient not knowing how to respond to diagnosis questions is no answer to that question.
Peter never debates experts or people who have any knowledge of a subject matter, he's like a pool shark who can't compete in tournaments but keeps challenging amateurs who he has observed in advance to be hopeless.
@@pistonburner6448 she’s a self proclaimed expert, she wrote a book on it, you think they got some random batty cow to debate Peter Hitchens?
Are you a real person?
The medication isn't very addictive, ironically.
Back in the 80s it was fashionable to have dyslexia, nowadays it's ADHD and trans.
Look, life is not easy - some people are more sensitive and have more difficulty in ordinary life than others, let's not pathologise life.
Also people in the affluent Wets become addicted to having a diagnosed mental health or general health issue - strangely enough poorer people in India and Africa don't seem to have or obsess over these issues.
Yes when I was young it was just mental.
Wasn't fashionable, used to get so much abuse for be dyslexic but I do get what your saying these days people feel sorry for themselves about everything and blame it on a disorder.
I guess people like her must simply work in manual labor jobs.
Victimhood has always been attractive to people who fear failure. That doesn't mean that certain conditions such as ADHD or dyslexia do not exist. But it can mean that some people's biggest issue will always be victimhood.
So wait, are you suggesting that the undiagnosed Africans are all having a better life ignoring this stuff? What even is your point?
You only have to watch Supernanny to see how certain parents haven't a clue about how to bring up their children. Playing with them is usually the start of good parenting.
@@gillianwhite1706 Supernanny is not a model of parenting that should be put forward as healthy. Please see the guidance on parenting from child psychologists and those working with children who have had any trauma, been fostered or adopted.
Super Nanny😂😂😂😂😂 get a grip
@@oa8420 I am a war baby - father away fighting so had little contact with me, brother sent to boarding school in the 60s - wrecked him for his adulthood years, young brother a late addition so was more like an only one - he spent 6 years in higher education which wasn't available to me due to money. I am going to do some research about the generations over 30 years before technology came into play. I watched a couple of episodes of Super Nanny and the discipline appeared to be more like the 50s. The first time I was aware of ADHD was from the 80s. I wasn't recommending Super Nanny just watched it as so many of the kids seem to have been diagnosed with ADHD - very very sad. I do wonder how much diet comes into play? I was brought up during rationing and have never liked anything sweet!
Not the most culturally up to date example there 😆
This lady should have written a book about how to successfully ramble on and on and on and on….
Kat was behaving as if Peter wasn't even there. Talking ceaselessly, not allowing for Peter to take her up on anything she was saying, then when he was talking she'd interrupt and continue to talk over him.
I don't think that's ADHD, I think that's called being rude.
Actually, it can be a symptom of ADHD.
@@nica900 Yeah, great to use as your go to excuse. ADHD is a sham.
@@sonicbloomtuts Says the expert in his own living room.
If an interviewer didn't stop Hitchens from hearing the sound of his own voice, she'd be in violation of her duty of care to the public
If she hadn't stopped Hitchens from hearing the sound of his own voice, she'd be in breach of her statutory duty of care to the public
Peter Hitchens wins that by a mile
No...I have adhd...I completely understand and agree what this lady is saying.
Wasn't an even playing field. He's a columnist and somewhat experienced in debating. Poor selection for Peter's opponent.
how rude talking past Peter and refusing to let them interject is childish
To be fair, I think it was a problem with her software rather than a deliberate choice to be rude. To put it simply, on a lot of audio software, the default option is to make it so that when you speak into your mic, you can't hear any audio. It seems she genuinely didn't know that others were speaking. Normally when someone is speaking over someone else, they repeat themselves, talk louder, and talk quicker, but she didn't do any of those things and instead maintained a constant pace. So either she is an incredibly composed orator, or her software was messed up. I assume the latter
Her biggest problem is remembering to order meds? Someone tell this lady about calendar alarms. And to slow down on alcohol and coffee. There. Done.
I find it fascinating to listen to this woman, Kat, and hear the endless repetition of the terms: 'my', 'me' 'mine', 'I', 'feeling'. I wonder what crossover there is between narcissistic personality disorder and ADHD. It seems that most people learn, to some extent, to do what they need to do (to survive/thrive), what they must do (job, family etc) often despite the way they feel. What I hear Kat describe is a lack of that capability - which she conveniently manages using chemical substances.
Ouch. That hurt even me. If true, the truth is brutal.
Hitchens cites a DRAFT NIH statement. Actual statement is as follows; "Although an independent diagnostic test for ADHD does not exist, there is evidence supporting the validity of the disorder. Further research is needed on the dimensional aspects of ADHD, as well as the comorbid (coexisting) conditions
present in both childhood and adult forms." The original source can be found by googling "Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). NIH Consensus Statement". We should note that (i) the original statement DOES support the validity of the diagnosis, and (ii) it is now 25 years old. And this is his main source of evidence?
He has a habit of cherry picking sections of studies to support his deluded assertions. As you say the study is literally ancient, and lots of research has been done since this source, that's how medicine develops. He has a biased opinion and found one line in a bit of work that supports it and has run with it. God even at university we are told not to use sources more then 5 years old. Personally, I think it is dangerous having someone in the public eye making statements about something that they have no knowledge in and/or not qualified in. There was so many false and misleading points from him it was kind of getting annoying. Peter leave it to the experts mate.
The argument is a lack of objective evidence, of the kind which is rarely if ever present in clinical psychology literature. It doesn't help to straw-man Hitchens' argument by pretending it rests on something he mentioned off-hand. You're merely beating the normative drum - precisely as the APA teaches, I suppose.
@@gessie There is plenty of objective evidence that traits related to what we call "ADHD" are highly heritable, and therefore genetically determined. If you go on google scholar you will find literally hundreds of studies which demonstrate this. The big societal questions about whether to label it, how to label it, whether to help people with these traits, and how, e.g. via behavioural means or medication, are very much open to debate. But Hitchens' starting from the assumption that this is a "made up" condition is combination of ignorance, arrogance and willful misdirection of the most appalling kind. No disrespect to the female journalist, but if Hitchens had debated an actual scientist who is also a skillful science communicator they would have torn him to shreds.
@@Heffiemonster A fair response, but you've implied my point: "Traits related to what we call ADHD". That's not objective evidence of an illness, or of the medication being effective and so on. It's mostly normative semantics. Once you define it as an illness, you can find things related to it but that's irrelevant - the question is if it's an illness and if it needs harsh medication being fed to young children.
‘We all need to have an element of humility’, said Kat 😂
it’s interesting to see how ADHD awareness has exploded online, but it does raise questions about over-diagnosis and whether everyone getting meds truly needs them. it’s good that more people are recognizing the condition, but we gotta be careful not to jump on the bandwagon too quickly without thorough understanding. awareness is great, but accurate diagnosis and treatment are key!
Peter Hitchins is FANTASTIC, always.
Does adult ADHD exist? What a strange question. To assume it only exists in children would be ridiculous.
Whether or not it "exists" is also a stupid question. If people struggle with executive functioning (a prerequisite for success in this society), struggle with impulse control, struggle with calming their minds and struggle to pay attention, struggle with consistency and follow through and they seek help for those things, does it matter what you call it or whether it "exists" in some biology sense?
No, it doesn't matter. On a completely unrelated note, I have some magic beans - do you want to buy them?
It’s a fact that some people struggle with impulse control. It’s not a fact that all those people should be labelled as having ADHD, and need to be treated with drugs.
@@ERobbins1234 then you'll be glad to see that the OP mentioned various symptoms and not just one.
@@FlummoxedCartwright Those "various" symptoms are all basically the same.
@@ERobbins1234 in that they all revolve around executive function and the prefrontal cortex they are certainly related. But they're clearly not the same. An understanding of basic English will help you with that
I have every ADHD symptom under the sun but I'm convinced it's due to my smartphone tbh. Never had ADHD as a child.
Don't have it in the bedroom at night. You will sleep better without it.
Cut out ALL ultra processed food, and cut out ALL the added sugar. After a month or two you will likely find you feel MUCH better.
TickTock is bad, too, particularly for children.
@@hazel9903 ALL social media is nothing but brain rot.
that because its a list of perfectly normal and common place experiences.
People with adhd need help with concentrating for things that regular people find easy to manage. It's not just helpful doing thkngs ypu don't want to do, it's helpful managing day to day self care. That's why it's a condition because it effects your ability to libe ypur life effectively.
Has it been over prescribed, yes many psychiatrists are bad at what they do but that doesn't mean adhd doesn't exist
Again this women is the reason we have this crap.hitchins was totally right
This is substanceless ad hominem.
You know the biggest thing in her life is her hypochondria obsession
I have to say I'm surprised that you'd have a patient who was suffering problems to defend their medical problems.
Hitchens should be either debating a doctor, or a doctor should be the one across from the lady.
The problems she has is the side effects of the drugs she’s on.
She wrote a book about it...she has an opinion just like Mr. Hitchens does.
@@johnk-pc2zx Yes. But I don't think it's right having a person defending their condition. It's not a neutral academic subject for them.
@@johnk-pc2zx it's the wrong opinion and hers holds no water.
Why would a doctor have anything especially interesting or pertinent to say about an alleged complaint that has no objective symptoms? Doctors are supposed to diagnose actual diseases and prescribe treatment for them. Their procedures are based upon hard science, and their authority comes from their earning in medical science. If they lend their support to a subjective claim such as this, then they forfeit their medical authority.
Kat pretty annoying 🙄 😒 Peter is AWESOME 👌 👏 👍
Kat looks tense in presenting her case! 😂
That wasn't a debate, more of a lecture on rudeness by Kat...
Mr. Hitchens did very well to put his argument forward for Ms Brown to consider. I do hope when she reviews the interaction she will be more amenable to persuading herself to be drug free.
I mean to say chemical drugs and not natural drugs, such as weed or tumeric and the like.
She won't she's a true believer.
Perhaps the 'AD' element was especially dominant on this particular day.
@@williamevans9426 lol 😂
@@steveetienne A true believer and thoroughly loaded
Bottom line, she doesn't want to take responsibility for the things she isn't good at, it is soooo much easier to say "I have a condition, it isn't my fault".
And you're bullying someone who has ADHD.
She should stick to having a drink, might lighten her up a bit!
@@zeezee3513 Alcoholism doesn't help anything.
We need so many more people to speak out and say these same things. I 1000% agree with Hitchens.
Regurgitating ones prejudices is not speaking out. It is inflammatory and wallowing in ignorance.
@@Andrew4Handel "Prejudices." Lol.
then you will be 1000% wrong lol
Poor old Kat certainly has her own personal problems which she wears has a badge of honour.
Yeah I have a physical disability and I find people with these fake illnesses want the diagnosis to feel special
Wow, he didn't storm out like a child, good job Peter! You're learning :)
What I got from this: the lady likes drugs.
@@frankie3041 AND the sound of her own voice
She’s a champagne 🍾 socialist
She makes the point very well.
Hitchens’ point, obviously!
It's not surprising, in a way, that she's so rude. She needs to believe in the pseudoscience and she needs you to pretend as well because, otherwise, she's just a drug addict. Peter's right though.
He really isn't he made so many misleading and inaccurate statements it was laughable.
@@stewysmithy give us some examples. X
Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin. Read the chapter on ADHD etc, and then read the whole book.
Dr Breggin is a legend.
As someone who's being kept alive by the cancer-branch of the pharmaceutical industry, I think I'm with Peter Hitchens on this one.
Never date a woman who claims she has ADHD and is prescribed stimulants for the condition unless you want to play the role of The Exorcist in the relationship.
People with ADHD do have a low success rate in relationships, it is true. 😆
@@YesBruv105Chicken/Egg.
The chair was too weak. Kat never shut up, Peter barely got a word in, but still 'won' by a mile.
She just goes on and on……..it’s the drugs talking.
I went to school in an era before ADHD & ADDD were a common thing. I remember some kids who displayed the signs of these conditions. So I really think there is something that is affecting a small number of people. Whether this is environmental factors or whether this is something that has been in some humans for millennia, who knows.
I do believe it is being massively over diagnosed as ADHD or ADDD though, because everyone wins, except the misdiagnosed person. The parents win because their child's problems aren't the parents' a result of how the child was brought up. They also win in that they don't have a kid who doesn't behave as other children do, the child has a 'condition'. The pharmaceutical companies obviously win because drugs equals profits. Medical research wins because there are funds available for research. Even the government wins, because it masks the damage done by decades of underfunding of the education system.
Everything this woman says supports Hitchens and the fact that ADHD diagnoses are for people who’ve convinced themselves that they are special. difficulty focusing is a normal human characteristic. Get over yourself.
But Hitchin’s argument is much the superior. Kat Brown was unable to address any of the arguments put to her - all deflection, and emotive
She knows that she underwent an assessment, but she didn't undergo an fMRI scan because those are presumably quite rare, so it would be hard for her to argue on that scientific point.
It occurs to me that every condition like ADHD etc. doesn't take account of the condition of "normal" people. She lists how she felt she had to work harder than others as a symptom... I beg to ask, just how does she know how hard the non-ADHD people felt they had to work? This is 100% subjective and assumes that others have it "easier" than you do, and it is just wrong. Peter is so right about the subjectivity of this condition. I see this with people writing books about serial killers for example, they assume that no normal people had terrible, abusive, violent, disrupted childhoods and it just isn't so.
You raise a valid point, but as someone diagnosed with ADHD, I can offer some insight. For me, tasks often take much longer to complete compared to others because I tend to overthink every step and consider every possible scenario. Many people don’t have to deal with this constant over analysis. Those with ADHD can easily get distracted, sidetracked, and procrastinate to the extent that it becomes a significant issue. For example, in the workplace, a typical person might simply perform a task without much thought, whereas someone with ADHD has to work hard to get into the right mindset, struggle to stay focused, get distracted, and often end up starting less urgent tasks instead of tackling the main one.
This struggle extends to many areas of life because, regardless of intelligence, academic ability, or diligence, the lack of dopamine can significantly hinder the process-unless hyper-focus kicks in. Hyper-focus is when a person with ADHD becomes so engrossed in an activity that it provides a continuous dopamine boost, driving them to complete the task because it is intrinsically rewarding.
One reason people fail to validate the condition is that its symptoms-like losing items, forgetting appointments, or losing focus-are things everyone experiences occasionally. The critical difference for those with ADHD is the frequency and intensity of these symptoms, to the point where they become a constant barrier in daily life. It’s not just about occasionally misplacing something or being forgetful; it’s the daily battle of trying to keep everything together while masking the struggle and making excuses to avoid being seen as lazy or careless. the things you don't see are the real struggles.
People with ADHD can put in immense effort, stay focused, and still end up forgetting, misplacing things, or getting sidetracked. Even with tools like timers, to-do lists, or digital reminders like Alexa, staying on track is an ongoing challenge. It can be disheartening to observe friends or family who seem to effortlessly manage their tasks, maintain routines, and succeed without overthinking, highlighting the stark contrast in how differently ADHD impacts those who live with it. I have spoken to many who do not have the same barriers as I do.
@@junipajen This post deserves to be posted as a main comment, not buried away as a reply far down the page. It very accurately describes the struggle. Unfortunately, the majority of people posting here still won't believe it. You almost have to have the condition or at least observe it in someone close to you to even understand it exists!
@@pjrslater thanks. And yes unless you experience first hand or witness it - it is genuinely hard to understand.
@@junipajen Dopamine production has a lot to do with lifestyle, diet, use of social media, etc. What I see in people with supposedly ADHD is that they tend to have a terrible diet, which alone could account for "ADHD". And the reality is there are a lot of people who say that diet and lifestyle improves their symptoms. So either you can get proactive, or you can be passively taking drugs or using "ADHD" as an excuse for everything.
@@sonicbloomtuts Drugs are only one method to counter act the issues with ADHD, diet + exercise can be another, but not all things work for everyone.
I know people who exercise regularly and have very healthy diets, but still struggle with their ADHD. I also know others who are terrible at both and don't have any neurological disorders. I do think you are correct that lifestyle/diet/social media can exacerbate the condition, but ADHD predates all of these things so I don't see how it is the cause.
Additionally, people with ADHD have trouble maintaining exercise and diet routines, so you might be promoting the symptom to the cause.
You have to enjoy watching Peter absolutely wiping the floor with idiots like this, dismantling foolish statements while sipping a mug of tea 😂
It's a racket, and only those invested in it defend it blindly.
@@rosaob5842 it’s like the so called autistic ‘spectrum.’ They took a real thing that people suffer from and expanded it to encapsulate quite a lot of human behaviour and experience.
I don’t care at this point whether someone is self diagnosed or diagnosed by a doctor. Who set out these parameters? Big Pharma, particularly in the US, is known to be corrupt and to have corrupted thr medical field. Why people are so keen to believe something that has a clear agenda is very odd to me.
I say this as someone who feels anxiety more than they don’t. But I recognise it’s a self fulfilling prophecy- I think of myself as an anxious person, so I feel that feeling. I’ve identified with a feeling that everyone experiences. That’s something I need to work on- to say that’s a disorder I or others have takes personal responsibility away. Why would you even try to improve, if u think u have a disorder that u will always have? It’s like when people blame being late now as ‘time blindness.’ - it’s not their fault that they’re late, it’s some disorder they have. 🙄
Schizophrenia is too and Bipolar..... mental hospitals should be closed down and a sign redirecting them to you, the knower of knowers 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 ignorance, now there's something I know I can always get a chuckle out of. Thanks for your lack of intelligence 🙏
Why is Peter Hitchens called up as if an "expert" witness in this field?
It is strange to have a Christian fundamentalist discuss other people’s mental illnesses
He's just an opinion commentator, and will say as much.
Is the woman an expert witness?
A lifelong disability that it took you 38 years to work out you had it. Strangely, I have never heard of people with actual disabilities, say cystic fibrosis or blindness, say it took them 38 years to work out that they had it.
Not every flaw in human character is a disability. She might have a hard time holding down a job because of psychological flaws. I have a hard time regulating my sugar intake due to a psychological flaw. Should I acknowledge my gluttony as a flaw to be dealt with through my own violation, or should I absolve myself of responsibility and expect to receive benefits for my supposed disability, whilst indulging rather than addressing my failings in personality?
Because that is the practical consequence of saying ADHD is a disability. We pay ludicrous sums of money to people who can claim they or their kids have ADHD, absolve themselves of any requirement to contribute economically, and excuse their poor behaviour. As someone who works in the benefits system, I can assure you, this does not lead to positive outcomes.
Sure, some people are inattentive and ill disciplined. Those failings should be dealt with by the usual incentive structures and we should be willing to punish bad behaviour. They should not be absolved of responsibility and financially rewarded for their poor behaviour. This is not something like paranoid schizophrenia where the psychological defect is not amenable to correction through normal incentives.
You have hit several obtrusive nails squarely on the head.
@@notalefty999 one cannot jump into another persons brain and compare and contrast to know if there is a difference. I cannot visualise (almost zero) but had no idea anyone could. I assumed 'visualising' was a metaphor or term of phrase.
There is a high amount of people with ADHD who end up in prison. There is also evidence that an ADHD brain makes for some of the best hunters in hunter gatherer times. There is discipline and knowing how to discipline a condition.
Check out Dr. Russell Barkley. He is a no messing, blunt, expert on ADHD since 1976.
The condition has been known about for 100 years now.
@@notalefty999 maybe you should get therapy for your sugar addiction or get tested for diabetes?
@@DeanCowan Or I could just eat less sugar.
@@notalefty999 You sound ready to just eat less sugar. Pro-tip: don't replace it with artificial sweeteners.
17:40 "no it wasn't". Peter cracks me up sometimes 😂
Kat needs to shut up! Let Peter answer or don't agree to a show with more guests than just you.
ADHDers brains work 100 times faster than normal brains...which is why adhders interrupt...and she is making perfect sense to me
I have several children in my family with ADHD (moderate/severe diagnoses) and none of them has ever been offered medication or has the issue of medication been discussed.
ADHD is a real thing, the problem is it´s overdiagnosed.
I find it very suspicious that ADHD is given attention and taken seriously with a very vague list of conditions but the serious psychiactric disorders that ruin people's lives are brushed under the carpet.
Do you know about Abigail Shrier and her new book Bad Therapy? I haven't read it but have watched her interviews about it. One of the main observations she makes is that there simply is no way to truly help people who have the most severe problems so the industry just pretends that almost everyone needs their "services" and has used propaganda (my opinion now) to cast its net wider and wider and, most significantly, to capture younger and younger and younger victims. I believe "therapy" is about 99% gaslighting. The drugs obviously do harm, not good. I don't understand how anyone thinks drugging is a solution or a good idea.
Thank you!!!!! A lot of psychiatrists are very troubled but this but as you can see, some of these ADHD believers are absolutely rabid about their diagnosis and the excuses it provides them with!!!
It´s a real thing, the problem is that it´s overdiagnosed and often used as a convenient cover up for bsic failures.
There is nothing vague about ADHD symptoms and you would not say that if you experienced. It ruins people's lives and can lead to suicide. It causes people to lose numerous opportunities if untreated through a lack of motivation, insomnia, anxiety and depression. So what is your evidence base for making your comments.
@@MinimmalmythicistAnd you evidence base for this is Minimmalmythicist? You do realise that simply stating something has no truth value?
I have the same symptoms described by Kat, but put them down to being high in the psychological trait "neuroticism"; a dysfunctional upbringing and being unmarried and childless.
I struggle sometimes with executive functions.
I believe, if I could get an appointment with a doctor treating ADHD, or ADD. I'd be diagnosed with it.
At university, I'd frequently have poor planning, and would procrastinate.. I didn't end up with a good degree. My lecturers told me my application was poor, and when they'd speak with me. I would be able to demonstrate a level of understanding of the subject level, if not, greater than those teaching me the subject.
I believe this is an issue with everyone, everywhere. And the symptoms people quote sound so generic. They could be applied to everyone I know.
ADHD used to be just called bad behaviour.
I am 68 and was about to write something similar, but perhaps less eloquently .So just a thumbs up to you and no RUclips strike for me .Thanks
@@allancrotch2953 thank you for your nice comment and glad I could help ! 🥰
Yeah, until they discovered why some bad behaviour might exist eg ADHD or Asperges (both are very similar) Don't get me wrong, just because one may have either of these conditions does NOT mean bad behaviour is ok. The point is to understand and manage the self better and be 'better behaved' as a result. NOT used a condition as an excuse for not trying and giving everyone else with these conditions a bad name.
And women didn’t used to have the vote. Times change, you either move with it or stay out of it
and neither did all men. Does it matter what name you give it , ADHD mental, nuts, anti-social it all boils down to the same thing.
Ms Brown mentions that she takes a low dose stimulant and a beta blocker, plus an antidepressant. Would the stimulant not itself potentiate hyperactivity with the beta blocker essentially countering the effect of the stimulant so that these two agents, at least in part, cancel each other out? Additionally, would the hyperactivity element she describes in itself contribute to some degree of so-called 'attention deficit'? Binge eating could be partly due to stimulant use but also might be a result of depression; the latter might, of course, also contribute to attention deficit.
In some children, normal boisterous activity might lead to perceived lack of focus on more sedentary activities, such as reading and homework, but this has ever been thus and is not usually indicative of any pathology. While some clinical syndrome might be present in an extremely small proportion of the child/juvenile population, I feel that relatively recent substantial increases in ADHD diagnosis 'medicalise' features of growing-up that are generally quite normal.
Indeed, a study by Kazda L et al., title: 'Overdiagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Children and Adolescents: A Systematic Scoping Review', published in JAMA Network Open in 2021 [4(4):e215335]. found that ADHD has been both overdiagnosed and overtreated.
Yup. My doctor also told me that the stimulants should be avoided by people disposed to depression because they exasperate the symptoms. And, of course, your anxiety would be worse if you are hopped up on speed. Her psychiatrist is extremely irresponsible for treating her in this manner.
@@vanessac1721 you cannot take every single person and apply the same rule each time. Care has to be given on a patient by patient basis as medicine is not as simple as that. At all steps you need to balance the risks vs the benefits. Sounds like your dr has given a just a broad blanket statement but it may not apply to every patient. Furthermore a GP refers to a psychiatrist as they are much more qualified in the respective field to make those judgment calls.
She appreciates his presence but won’t allow him to get a word in
She was a binge drinking alcoholic and binge eater and nobody knew why she couldn't conceive a baby? She did IVF BEFORE giving up the drink??? Sounds like she was on anxiety and depression meds then too before her ADHD stuff, which are also linked to infertility!
ADHD is over-diagnosed but it is a recognisable disorder.
Most mental health diagnsoes are not based on a physcial test but rather an assessment with subjective and objective observations combined with a detailed history and mental state exam.
The issue with ADHD is that much of its criteria are seen in the normal human experience. However it can be classified and treated as a mental disorder if it sufficiently disruptive to the persons quality of life. The treatment can compromise pharmacological and non pharmacological strategies.
As with all mental health diagnoses the treatment impact should be reviewed regularly both for benefit and potential adverse outcomes.
Seems sensible to me
It was invented by pharma to sell pills.
@@_BMS_ no it is not the “inability to focus on tedious tasks” that is a diagnostic criterion for ADHD at all; you are missing two key aspects for a diagnosis (why this is best left to experts).
Namely, that there must be several factors/symptoms at play all at once (inability to focus on “tasks” in general, tedious or otherwise, is but one of them), but secondly and most importantly, these issues must be serious, pervasive, and permanent.
They don’t chop and change with the wind, whether one is at work or home, whether the task is tedious or otherwise etc. Your premise is incorrect and disingenuous, but if you truly believe it, I can see why you are cynical about the condition in general.
@@_BMS_ medicine rarely deals in true objectives, and virtually never in psychiatry. By definition a psychiatric doctor is assuming how someone is “thinking” and “feeling” which is subjectivity itself. The goal of the person approaching the healthcare professional is to get help for something that is affecting them in a negative way. Why should you or I be the gatekeepers of what is an “actual” mental health disorder, and what does that even mean?
I’m not sure how you can suggest that because someone manages by sheer hard work or good luck, that they can’t have struggled with some kind of “atypical” neurological function? Surely it is more important to acknowledge that millions of people state they have this same experience, and at least try to understand it better?
There is an argument to be made about the financial implications of these assessments and treatments, but how does someone else’s medical diagnosis have any bearing on mine or your achievements at all?
@@Spv1627Very well said! I might also add that some activities can be focused on but the person typically does not get to choose what these are. Thanks for your objectivity and balance.
If she were working class, would any of those traits be especially noted? Of course, we could say that about most psychological diagnoses.
Circular logic init? A tautology. There are records of leading psychiatrists who developed the diagnosis of ADHD in the USA, which received large amounts of money from the USA.
One of the most successful child and adolescent psychiatrists in the UK runs a drug and diagnosus free clinics, and many of the clients would get and ADHD in other clinics. His clinics get peoole better in about 2 years, never to return, whereas in other clinics they never get better.
The meds tend to wear off and are physically damaging, however as long as adults know this I am fine with them taking it. It should be banned for children.
Think the Mary Wakefield did well, but she needs to press more when guests evade questions and when making points, so that guests address them.
I love the way Hitchins calmly sits there and just listens to Kat. Kat is a pharma/therapy cash cow.
18:08 "ADHD is not an objective diagnosis due to no actual physical observable event or objective test". To this I say, 'I agree'. But also, I disagree. Unlike epilepsy, ADHD has no rigid definition, but that's not sufficient to say whether something does or does not exist (at risk of being polarizing and distracting from my actual point, I could give the example of gender).
So what is ADHD? Like most neurodivergent pathologies, it's a collection of symptoms that are extreme variations in the human condition. The idea is that by collecting a list of common symptoms shared by a group of people and giving it a name, we can then use it to direct similar people to a common solution.
The best description of this is 'The Autism Constellation' by 'No Boilerplate' where he describes autism (another vague neurodivergence) as a constellation of behaviors that can be used to help people navigate.
ruclips.net/video/DhY3fu-YgHU/видео.html
The point of this is that, while ADHD is not objective, it is useful. It does help people. If it is helping people fix bad behaviors, then it is a good thing. (not the opposite of this is also true. If it is being used to justify those bad behaviors, it is a bad thing).
If Kat is anything to go by, ADHD is the manifestation of a mix of anxiety and narcissism.
I am concerned about over diagnosis of ADHD. However, Hichens arguments are badly made. Peoples experience with adhd are, by their very nature, subjective. So asking for “objective physical proof” in this case really is dumb science.
I have 2 teenage daughters, the youngest clearly has some kind of issue (although very hard working, great grades, great results and soon heading off to uni) which has made and is making life very hard for her. Consequently, we have dived deeply into this subject (I have a biology degree and have been very interested in neurology since my teens, my late brother had complex neural disorders causing him to violently fit (not violent, large, dangerous to him fits) and other disorders from birth, all diagnosable even in the 60s).
I think there is significant cross over between adhd and what we could call “normal” behaviour. But, the things I’ve observed in my child are not due to lack of effort, control, intelligence or self awareness. Asking her to do or not do certain things would be like asking a man with a broken leg to run a mile.
This is an area that needs more understanding and it’s a shame that Peter doesn’t appreciate that things are true or false just because he thinks so.
I notice he has no problems believing not just in god, but a particular god and a particular religion. In this area he is perfectly happy to ignore the need for “objective physical” evidence.
Very disappointing how many people in the comments misrepresent her argument and behaviour.
@@jamesreynolds4811 thank you so much for this comment.
The diagnosis gave her a new identity to base her life around. Something she can endlessly bore others with and excuse her out shortcomings.
This is happening with adult autism. The very basic joke of a screening process she went through is my experience of how easy it is to get a adult autism diagnosis.
You can't debate with someone who is convinced medication is the solution. When I was at a school with 1600 pupils, 40 yrs ago, we had one problem child. He obviously had issues and was very bright when I had a conversation with him, which stunned me. Now that school would have a classroom specially for ADHD sufferers. Medicating children can't be the answer, surely?
That's part of the debate that needs science, not Hitchens vs.... I don't know what to call her.
If you look at autism; in the 60s we believed about 1/2000 people were autistic. We now understand it is closer to 1/40.
Of course ADHD need not being the same. But you get my point?
She admits to drinking bucket loads of coffee and then says she is a bit hyper. Any causal connection?
@@dhayes3963 Indeed. Some people seem to think the attention and focus enhancing effects of caffeine increase as you increase the dosage. That isn't true. She was most likely drinking far too much coffee leading to scattered thinking, anxiety and the inevitable "comedown" depression of abusing a stimulant.
Got to admire PH and his composure during this interview. His mere administration of common sense is enough to refute the lady's argument. Drugs are harmful, and this is the moral of the story that she didn't want to take on board
Without any doubt, she is speeding SHE CAN'T SHUT UP !!!!!
That is also an ADHD trait 🤷. So hard to say..
Or and the rise of PTSD for almost everything.
For five years I was a supervisory assistant in an infant and junior school. I observed a 7 year old boy displaying repetitive behaviours, such as touching the ground before a kicking a football, bringing his knee up to his nose just before kicking a football and fuddling with his pants as if continuously pulling his pants out if his backside. No matter how we spoke to him he wouldn’t do as he was told and just completely ignored you. I found out that he was on medication for ADHD. From my experience he seemed like he was displaying early OCD symptoms, not ADHD. I had experience of OCD as my 26 year old daughter had been diagnosed with OCD (Pure O type) She had displayed similar symptoms as a child and with hindsight I now realised what she was going through. She was tormented with bad thoughts and in turn behaved quite badly at school because she was too young to process her thoughts. She is now 30 and her condition is well managed, but it took a specialist OCD Psychologist, which we had to pay for, to diagnose and advise her.
The issue is not just that children are given these drugs but that tax-payers money is spent on these drugs.
And on the downstream medical implications.
In the UK maybe, but not in the States.
I remember watching that sitcom Frazier and the character Niels expresses that he has found the best patient that suffers from numerous life time aliments... He(Niels) has found the crack pot(jack pot).
My personal take is that whilst I'm sure there are many people kern to put a label on things, and some will happily make money from it, I feel we neglect that with things like smartphones, WiFi, on demand tv and well tailored algorithms, the modern environment can be more able to steal ones attention, and of course some will be more prone to that. Similar to Peter though, I am not sure that pathologising the individual is accurate or helpful.
Absolutely agree. So ADHD would be psychological. I would add that the effects of smartphones, WiFi etc. have been shown in studies to have physiological effects, at least on rats. My experience is that I have electrohypersensitivity and have proven that it is physiological, ADHD could be another form of electrohypersensitivity, physiological! Until we start dissecting the brains of ADHD children, we cannot be sure. A precautionary approach is advised. See Dr Semmelweis history.
Have you got my comment? Seems to have been deleted.
@@jonp3216 took a bit of scrolling, but yes, I found it. I understand causation is very difficult to prove, but I feel that hypothesis seems very plausible.
Then why does diagnosis require evidence of the behaviours dating back to childhood under the age of 12 years, which for many many people this means well before the internet existed. For those not well informed on the matter the behavioural symptoms must have a significant and detrimental impact on many areas of the patient's life.
I think this quasi-conversation shown it very well that some people find an urge to take drugs and misbehave totally irresistible. I.E. like not listening to other side arguments and not addressing the points being made. ADHD it way too convenient an excuse to demonstrate at least some sociopathic traits and get away with it.
what a bully - overspeaking everyone completely ruins her stance for me.
A little bit of old-fashioned pragmatism from Peter, very refreshing and quite rare these days.
Is ADHD just another term for someone that is just really annoying?
No, but people who have ADHD can be really annoying. That's why it's harder for them as a group to keep friends, stay in relationships.
"It's not the person who suffers from ADHD, but the family, friends and people around them!"
Yes
interviewer is a bit biased on peter's side! (i say that as someone who also leans more in that direction!)
Wow, she is obnoxious.
A narcissistic, personality defect.
Mary has done a good job chairing this. I ❤ Peter Hitchens.
I do too. I also loved Christopher Hitchens his brother ❤
"should we put Ritalin in the water too?".
Hell no
notice, she didnt disagree....
She was so pushy I just couldn't take anything she said seriously. She put me off listening to her, while Hitchens remained calm and measured. She came across as slightly hysterical.
@@mischiefthecat8399 TBH, most women ARE slightly hysterical. The rest of them are TOTALLY hysterical.
@@bobjames6622 You are extremely misogynistic bob. Peter Hitchens was the only hysterical person. He was trying to create a problem where none exists and where he could not illustrate a problem and then made an absolutely moronic comment about putting ritalin in the water that nobody would ever suggest and he is an absolute disgrace because he as been told people get medication only AFTER a diagnosis. He is essential coming a hate crime against a group of extremely vulnerable people based don his own ignorance of the mind, psychology and the philosophy of mind and science.
Must never forget that medicine and the pharmaceutical industry is a profit-making industry. They need to have ongoing illnesses and new illnesses to guarantee their future. Interesting that she says part of her 'therapy' is eating well with healthy food. Who needs to be told that, only people looking for 'professionals' to define and direct their lives, not oneself.
See the documentary Rockefeller Medicine by James Corbett.