Why Falco isn't More Common in Today's Meta
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2017
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In the absence of PPMD, Falco's meta has actually regressed in many ways; namely, people trying to be WestBallz.
namely King Momo and Squid... who else even is there?
Magi, Rocky, Bimbo, Ginger, BBB
the biggest thing I took from this video is that Androids Marth is lowkey pretty good
B/c we ignored his warning of keeping our hands off his bread. LMFAO
wasn't it prey?
Both.
Anthony Ivery it's prey
Yeah this is Melee you scrub.
he didn't get to make his sandwich :(
I think low level falco has maybe the best autopilot among viable characters, but high level falco has one of the worst. So I think a lot of players who would excel with the character because they're patient and focused, don't pick him up in the first place, and a lot of the technical wizards get discouraged and switch off
FACTS
Great thoughts
This sums it up quite well
Yup yup yuuuuuuup
I switched from Falco to Fox because of all of the negative reception Falco players get at entry level i.e. "You're a brain dead player because you play a brain dead character."
Honestly changed from Fox to Falco just to see if can bring the Falcos back to the scene.
Also, who doesn't like to -Drill SD- style with Falco?
4:19 I like how Armada is playing, but still finds time to do this hand motion while talking.
Another large reason why Falco isn't common is that typically Fox and Falco are both equally good against fast fallers, however Falco definitely has to work a lot harder to get good results vs floaties. And because all the floaties (and everyone else) grinds out the Fox matchup so much, it turns the Falco matchup from maybe even or slightly bad into a really good one for them.
Falcos just don't play well enough in the neutral anymore to beat good floaties.
Switching to falco now
Your profile pic is perfect for this comment
is it?
11 hours have passed since you posted this. How is it going so far?
11 months have passed since you posted this. How is it going so far?
Hi Armada,
I was going to say you're looking well, but I just realised this video is a few years old. I hope you're still looking well.
PP touched upon the concept of the meta evolving as players discover and master new ways of doing things. I think he was suggesting that, broadly speaking, some approaches that are very effective in the beginning grow less reliable as the player base learns how to counter them.
He still concluded that Falco is at least very high tier. And I've always thought what you said in this video is true. I think it's great to have the two StarFox options, similar yet for different purposes. It's something I love about Melee compared to other games that try to shove as many characters in as possible, with move sets so different that the game doesn't really fit together as tightly.
Best wishes from the UK
he actually streams on twitch every week and speedruns mario 64, :)
Falco is amazing and I don't think he loses a single matchup (maybe slightly to Fox) but I think one of the problems with him is that he doesn't have a matchup that's really skewed in his favor besides Falcon. He either goes even or just very slightly wins against the top 8 characters where as Fox (or even Marth and Sheik) have matchups against some of the top 8 that are solidly in their favor. Of course, the difficulty to play him against floaties is another major factor as well because getting used to playing a very different style just for floaties can be such a pain.
I attempted to switch mains with fox, Marth, falcon, and even Peach, but you made me change my mind. I am now willing to experiment with Falco and discover the game more with who I truly enjoy the most
I think people are more aware of if you're going to sink time into a super technical character, you might as well pick the one with the far superior matchup spread.
People love to use Fox vs floaties, because of his great vertical upward killing power.
Falco has some pretty good upward killing moves too (especially when he can shine characters off the top of Yoshi's Story), but his kit is not quite as versatile in those match ups on a variety of stages. I think most people would rather face Puff on Dreamland with Fox than Falco, if they could only choose one. Spacies generally don't like fighting floaties on Dreamland, but they could make the experience less of a pain, if they used someone who could kill earlier, I.E. Fox.
Because edge guarding floaties can be so tricky, people can decide not to play the ledge game and just decide to murder the floaties at low percents with a Fox up-smash or up-air.
I also think people get tired of camping with lasers just as much as people get tired getting hit by them. So they choose to use a character that has greater mobility and someone that can just take stocks quicker, overall. To them, it is more useful in the long run.
I still think Falco is 2nd best character. Even though I'm a big Marth fan.
Android's Marth Kreygasm
So basically everyone thinks Falco is bad except for top Fox mains who don't even play him but think he's amazing. Really makes you think.
Mango is the best Falco in the world and he thinks Falco is amazing
That's fine, that's probably because Fox might fit your style better and that Fox has much simpler decision making in a lot of MUs, but that doesn't mean Falco is bad
Wah, falco is overshadowed by fox when I try to play falco like fox in almost every situation!
He must be the worst character! Kappa
I disagree, I think most falcos up to professional levels have a much easier flow chart and decision making than fox mains. Many falco mains are just tech junkie autopilot players and hardly learn utilize anything other than the most obvious aggressive laser patterns, useless multishines, and dair. Your statement only holds true, I think, at top level play, which most people aren't at and never will be.
Just Ryan what.... ppmd rapes his falco lmao he’s nowhere near as good as ppmd after 2013 in falco matchups
Would love to see Leffen pic up falco honestly
Yeah I know, I've seen him use it on stream before it's really good
I fink PPMD was the first falco who was able to defeat Armada's Peach and Hungrybox's Puff.
I think you're right. Mango Falco beat Armada. Westballz beat Hbox (once). PPMD used to beat both pretty consistently. RIP the legend
AbuOsama29 R.I.P
I think one of the main issues is that falco is one of the only characters whose punish game hasn't been entirely streamlined. When Marth grabs on spacies on fd there is an exact option he can do at every percent to take the combo to death. Sheiks combos are very straight forward and so are foxes. Falco is the only character who's combos largely are made up on the spot
came for armada, stayed for android's marth
We've seen it so many times, but I love how Armada is casually playing against Android, while talking about something in Smash and still destroying him.
patiently waiting for PPMD Kreygasm
I feel like a lot of falco players don't really use the character correctly, probably because they either try to play like fox or try to be westballz. But the reason PPMD got such good results is because he played to his gross neutral strengths because falco lasers are arguably the best neutral tool in the game.
sonichaven flashback to 2005 falco meta game
That look at 3:24 after that kill armada got made me laugh really hard
Lmao my boi PP that good he influences the whole meta as a whole with his Falco
Really curious on what dashizwiz might have to offer in the near future also if PPMD comes back there will be some good falco action for sure.
When PPMD fully returns, so will the falco mains
Whenever I see a falco blindly approach with laser and just get nair'd or gets hit after jumping forward it just makes me wonder: "Why would you do that?"
That Marth down air tho
lol I just went to a tourney in San Diego and literally 80% of the players used Falco, including myself. it was very surreal.
How in the world can Armada talk and play this good at the same time O.o
I agree with armada , falco has a lot of tools for being a top character but his up b recovery is harsh not only this but falco neutral isn't exactly easy at the high level. But can you imagine a falco with the nuetral game of PPMD the mix ups and reads of Mang0 and the punish game of westballz? How can falco not be a top character?
I think the big problem with Falco is that he dies very easily and to fight against floaties, Falco as to win neutral many more times. Falco probably does fine vs Puff, Peach, and Samus, but compared to Fox, Falco has to work harder to get kills whereas Fox has it pretty easy getting kills
Falco is a character of speed, precision, and a master of mind games. His di traps are underrated as fuck
The crazy thing is he had no idea the dude on the left was there.
in italy is 20yy,everyone plays falco at TAS level of perfection
Armada,
You need to pick up Falco.
Everyone knows you're the best with Peach, everyone knows you're the best with Fox. You are the best player in the world right now, which means you get to write the history of the game.
Nothing will change if you keep dominating tournaments with Fox/Peach. Everyone knows you can win with those characters. The reason Falco is not popular right now is because you are not playing Falco.
Imagine if you started winning tournaments with Falco. More skillful Falco games are played, more Falco content is created, and you teach everyone how to properly play such a high energy combo-oriented character. I can only imagine how incredible your combo videos would be!
Picking up Falco is now a sidequest. You can ignore it, or take it and advance Melee to the next level.
Only you have the power, Armada.
The choice is yours.
Calling him the best Fox is a bit of a stretch.
I mean who else? Mango or Leffen? I'd say they are in the same tier lol
It would take him too long and too much energy to play Falco to the point to where he is proficient enough to win tournaments. Obviously Armada is the best player in the world, but I think you overestimate his ability to pick up and win with a character he is less familiar with than Young Link. He also would likely not be able to win tournaments with solo Falco even if he were to reach that level, simply because Foxes like Leffen are so good at the match-up, and Hbox eats Falco for breakfast.
Also, I wouldn't call Armada the best Fox. He's probably second behind Leffen, but ahead of Mang0, though the three are very close regardless.
Kyle Tupper mango is the best fox until armada proves he can take majors with fox and not just vs puff and leffen. He uses peach to avoid upsets.
??? It's obvious that leffen's fox is the best. Whether that makes him the more consistent or nerve ready player is another story though.
Armada sounds so wise when he talks
Armada make your own tier list
wheres my fellow falco mains?
DrakeDoesGamez sup my dude
i hate you all
-low level ganondorf
I have a question should I buy a GameCube to start learning how to play smash melee or will the Wii work just fine
Gabriel Hartman Wii works fine homie
Calaca_ ok thanks
PPMD's Falco actually got me so hard whenever he played
Falco is potentially tied with Fox and Marth. The only thing that holds him back in those match-ups is his mobility and recovery, which he makes up for in his combo game that's arguably the most consistently strong. Falco can consistently zero to death anyone even if that player has high level melee DI, which I don't think can be said about anyone else. Given, your combo game has to be really strong when dealing with smash DI, he can still cover those options even before you get out of hit stun. Falco's combo game coupled with knowledge on how to cover certain popular recovery options and slide off DI, Falco still can zero to death top players consistently if your reactions are good enough just because Falco's optimal combo game is actually broken tier good.
Fox and Marth just happen to be practiced enough in the meta right now that it's just easier to pull off in top level. Falco's combo game requires more reactions to DI and option coverage, and unlike Fox, he doesn't have a quick kill option like shine spiking. Down air gimps requires your opponent to go to you upon recovery unless you're willing to trade a stock, whereas Fox's recovery is such you can just go to them and cover everything. Falco also suffers a bit in the neutral game to characters who have more mobility on the ground, which he tries to control with lasers. Lasers can be effective in the neutral, but it really only forces your opponent to re-input their moves. The hit-stun on the lasers are really not significant enough to cover his neutral game against opponents who are faster and have moves that have low start-up, and spamming them can really only slightly slow down a patient Fox or Marth player. However, in the neutral game, a Falco with good spacing can punish just as quick as anyone else because his moves have very low start-up (akin to Fox), which makes Falco's mobility less of a problem for him.
Overall though, Falco makes up for everything by having arguably the strongest combo game in the game. He might not have the same easy and quick kill options like Fox, but his combo game can be just as effective as a shine-spike.
Wow, that was a lot more long-winded than I thought it would.
League of legends meta has this exact problem, the average player just looks at what the top players are using and only play those champions. Its like whatever the pros are playing every other player wants to play those characters too, even the top players/coaches just copy other top players. out of 100+ characters only the top 12 are gonna be played this week. lol
People should just focus on what they are good at playing based on their own style rather than try and replicate another person who probably doesn't think like you do at all.
as for smash i've got my own personal tier list based on what I can play well: Falco, Sheik, Puff, Pika. Fuck the meta. Fox and Marth are on my bench
MrMarbles0Xecution no one cares about that shit weeb game
yeah, no one but tens of millions of players
I still remember that one time someone used Urgot in the LCS and suddenly there were complains about him.
Yes, the second section of your comment is a great example of what really plagues a lot of the Smash community. Many of the characters in Melee are also highly underestimated in my opinion because most people also don't understand the way the characters play and combo, so they write them off as being bad, unbalanced, and broken, but really they aren't.
Casual Game for Casual Scrubs. Brawl also sold more Copies as Melee.
HoN and Dota2 are like 20 Competitive Levels over LoL.
Falco is definitely Michael Jackson. people will always play him no matter how old they are.
Not only are alot falcos attracted to fox, fox's matchup spread is clearly better. With exceptions like Falcon, Fox handles floaties with upward kill moves (a floaty's bane). He can wave shine on most of the cast, and he has guaranteed upthrow follow ups. And fox's gun is better in certain matchups. Nevertheless, I will never give up on the bird.
hmmm i play samus (main) falco and marth my style is a bit more towards the traditional fighter but i LOVE the neutral game i love pp's and shiz's style its great because i can play all my characters the same way.. very laser jab f.tilt falco i can't understand why ppl think falco isn't great anymore because they wanna laser in-out d.air shine or multishine mindlessly.
Since Ultimate came out, I decided to practice melee. I've been practicing for months now and I am a new Falco main. I have such a hard time ahead of me.
"Something crazy"
Fox.
Fox hardly makes falco a bad character? not seeing your point here
2:31 no it was when pc Chris played meele people started saying that falco is brokening
"the mayority"
that bit about ppmd is so right XD
The bird is the word
How do you play so well and talk at the same time
Btw armada if fox is considered #1 and you are the top using peach, shouldn't she be at least top 3? Or why do so few people play peach?
Diego Salazar Most likely for the same reasons as Falco and Jiggs, they get harder to play the higher your skill level rises
Diego Salazar the manner of playing peach is so radically different than most of the other characters that she ends up being unwelcoming to new players trying to find a main. Understanding proper usage of floating and item play is a high barrier for entry, since those are peach exclusive traits. Fox, marth, and sheik, on the other hand, rely less on character-specific options like those, instead focusing on strong fundamentals. (Not to say that those three have no character specific options, or that peach doesn't rely on strong fundamentals. It's just, from a new or outside perspective, how the differences lie)
I personally think Falco is way more fun to play than Fox. Falco's punish game can be pretty ridiculous. He has so many options at any moment in a combo, and he has tons of setups like shine off the top, shine up-B off the top, shine bair/dair, up throw up air on floaties, and standard pillar combos. The problem is Falco has tremendous potential in the neutral game because of lasers and dashdances, but today's Falcos generally don't have good neutral, myself included.
Swagger
Long has the bird-crown languished with no worthy brow to sit upon 🐔
Means that PPMD Falco is going to come back and confuse everyone.
I think the same could be said about bayonetta I think (even if it's smash bros. 4)
Barsee23 lol in Indy 8 of our top ten are bayos
The current meta game for melee is literally just everyone playing Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Puff
You hardly see any other top tiers
armada : 🤓🤓🤓
android : 🗿🗿🗿
So if you shouldnt base how good a character is based on tournament results, how should a new smash player decide if a character is good enough to play? Legit questions
If you're new, and the people you play with are also new (or even mid to low level), you can pick most if not all of the characters. You won't be at a level of play where tier even matters yet, some characters will simply be easier to learn. To put it into perspective Qerb, a GnW player, took nine stocks in the crew battle at the tri state regional this past weekend (though he did proceed to get last in his pool). Tiers basically will not matter until you get into top mid high, to top level play. Legit Answer, Leffen's tier list is your best bet.
I am one of the people who was a falco main and switched to fox guilty
He's too much of a baller and most people can't handle it.
inb4 crazy anti-falco tech is found
Been a Falco main since I first played the game at like 10 and still am to this day. Always beat my fox main friends.
Powershield, smash DI to avoid Falcos TINY shine hitbox, LRASTRT fox LOL JK
i main falco and i hate fox 1. becuz he feels disgusting when i use him;like a rock tht slide against the floor and 2. i sometimes try to use his moves like falco
FeelsBadMan
I would love to see armada play the bird in tournament
People get discouraged by falco because he's god tier at low level but once you reach mid-high level he's extremely difficult to play efficiently, especially on PAL.
Hopefully DSW or PPMDS return will put Falco back in
Its kinda hard to focus on what you"re saying while there is intense gameplay on the screen
Falco main for life!!!!
We need ppmd
so shortly it's because Fox _outshines_ Falco
ill never switch to fox, personally I prefer the dair
4:34
M2K?
is that his little bro
really the only thing falco mains can complain about is his recovery
Funny how Mango just won with Falco
I think the problem is that falco loses to floaties. And if you want to argue he doesn't win then falco has to play in such a difficult way that is so different to his other match ups. Also I think the mindset for lasers might be wrong. Recently I have been playing sets with falco but not using lasers has helped my gameplay wins. That's just me tho
Have u ever seen Shiz vs Hbox? That laser game help a lot against floaties from what i saw on those matches
Use his lasers, lol
erick diaz I'll have to watch it but when I play my friend I shoot him and he can fair right after it
I think that because Falco
Because his recovery and the fact that he is combo food for most of the cast along with the general playstyle attached to falco
Time to put you on blast (sorry Armada) your point about how people look at results and see falco doesn't have a top level player winning often, is the same logic you used about bayonetta in smash 4, but atleast you did mention that you don't know everything about smash 4 and you could be wrong.
Funny how everyone who actually plays Falco says his recovery sucks, while all the people who don't think it's good.
how in hell did he wall jump at 3:33
John Wang Marth down aired and he teched it, it just happened pretty fast so if you weren't playing close attention then it was hard to catch
John Wang marth landed a dair then fox wall jump teched it
2:53
85 - 1
The melee scene is dying slowly I can feel it all crumbling away
Lord_Neo Okay.
Lord_Neo so are we.
Dawud Rahman no I'm immortal
SharkBearAgator Phipps EVO numbers were down because it was on Saturday. I can only assume Smash 4 got the Sunday spot because of a pay off. Disney televising the Smash 4 finals doesn't help my suspicion.
SharkBearAgator Phipps this evo was so bad LOL
I will always main falco.
*BaN fOx*
Fact: Falcos should try to emulate DSW, not Westballz
tons and tons of low level people play falco, i saw a tournament where there were around 20-30 falco's and only like three people that played other characters. Being one fox, one peach, and one game and watch.
so yes very relevant in lower level play but probably is going to need more attention by higher level players to completely excel
His up b is worse than crazy good like fox. being the fast faller combo food tha he is fox is way more consistent with easier finishers in upsmash/air and bettwr up B... Next topic!
Well then why don't you pick up Falco and prove people wrong? Kappa
Because why play Falco when you can play Fox? Roughly the same tech skill level but one is easier to win with.
He's playing peach and hungrybox is playing jiggs. Top players don't need to prove this shit to nobodies just because it's about falco.
Because autopilot, tech junkie falco mains are retarded and think falco is identical to fox in everyway, and thus they play like a slower fox. Good thing ppmd and mango never plays falco like that, proves you idiots wrong everytime that falco is still an amazing character.
Now today 90% of net play is falcos lol
I came here to comment the same lol
Is that Android playing Marth?
If its not the character its that armada and hbox are too good
PPMD killed the bird
fox vs falco 10:90
While falco is really uncommon at top level play, he's really really common at low level play. Like 90% of anthers ladder is falco mains lmao