this has to be the best melee content coming out on youtube. you always know exactly what you’re about to see and it’s always well said and to the point
This is actually really rare for me to say this, but I actually agree with Leffen on this one. I'd say either Fox or Marth is #1, so if either side was just randomly bitching about the other MU, I'd agree completely with Armada.But Leffen wasn't just complaining to complain. He was asking people how to deal with the MU (while trash talking everyone). Basically he was trying to learn how to play a "losing" MU not just complain.
XCorazónX It's soo funny too. Because leffen use to say.. " it's hard for me not to 3 stock m2k on FD" most smashers just wanna complain when they lose
No need just seen decent amount of people put Marth over Falco while I believe Marths a solid 3rd, its opinions why would I need proof just from what Ive seen.
Armada so smart and rational, all of what he says seems so well thought out, and the comparisons Armada uses to compliment his ideas are actually too good. Keep up the great videos!
Everything in this video was spot on perfect with fox being so dominant in all these matchups and then having a maybe 45/55 matchup and crying about it. 10/10 video my friend
"The Fox-Marth matchup is unbalanced! Chaingrabs!" As a Fox main, I have 2 things to help out with people feeling this way about chaingrabbing-Marths. 1. Realize it's not that the match up is bad, it's just that you struggle with it, which simply means you have to practice it more. 2. Don't get grabbed. Be smart, move, dodge, force approaches with SHFFLing and punish whiffs, don't just nair on shield for the 100'th time.
As a Marth I totally agree. I think the matchup is 50/50, I see the arguments for both sides, but definitely Fox wins except FD. I love fighting Foxes though. Such a volatile matchup, both characters get to show off their neutral games, punishes, and edgeguarding really well. I've been zero to deathed first stock against Foxes and brought it back, so I don't think either really has room to complain.
The tools that both Marth and Fox have makes them incredible characters, but there are at least 7+ characters that are definitely viable to win tournaments. Complaining about matchups holds people back from adapting to their opponent.
The reason foxes complain is that you have to grind out so much tech skill just to get combo'd hard by a character who's execution isn't as time-sensitive. But I guess thats what you sign up for when you pick the most technical character in the game.
I think complaining about certain MU with fox is something people could do, if they are just complaining about the fact they can't play the MU well and not speaking of the MU in general It's kinda like M2K complaining about Ice's, he knows that Peach should win the MU, but he still complains cause he can't find out a solution de consistently beat Ice's, and he find it hard If you know what I mean I play alot of smash 4 and I actually dont like some MU that aren't bad for my character, but that's like that, and I'll often complain that this character got thoose things that makes me struggle That's kind of a John when you think to it, but it happens to anybody imo
To those who want to comment about Leffen complaining about Marth, preeeeeeetty sure he's just upset that he's not good at the matchup right now. Let him get the salt out of the way while he figures out if he should relearn the matchup or switches characters. I'd personally love to see him play Falco, his original main.
Honestly most of the popular tournament characters that are viable don't have nearly as much to complain about as Roy, Pichu, Kirby and Bowser...if anyone should be complaining it's them...and Captain Falcon about the Fox matchup, because Fox gimps Falcon so easily....it's just like...why....
Fox beats everyone because he was designed to. Read the adventure mode fox mccloud trophy description, it says, "he's better at one-on-one fights than melees with multiple foes"
I feel like lasers give quite the edge to Fox. Amazing neutral tool that allows for a passive, campy play while still being low commitment to some degree. Marth lacks this, so it seems as though Marth has to approach.
Made a video about marth 2020 your thoughts about ibdw vs zain and talk about: empty grab And the thing that leffens do with sheik and faceroll vs the top 3 (Mango, zain, none)
Even Armada, who is not only a master of punishing, but also says people can optimise punishing with many characters, says Marth's comboes on Fox off FD are overrated. Finally someone --- the best player, in this case --- agrees with me!
I scrubbed the floor with a decent fox player one time and he told me to pick another character because he thought the matchup wasn't fun... I was playing Luigi
Armada hasn't played PPMD or a good Marth vs his Fox in a long time he smart and goes Peach. Because he has to work harder with Fox which is understandable the Matchups for others is easier if he plays fox for how commons and How long people have analyzed how to beat fox
I give M2k practice in the MU once in a while, despite not being tournament matches I do know what playing against his Marth feels like. We go super even, some sessions I win slightly more some sessions he does
Pretty much the same. A few small changes in favour of Marth (Fox's up-smash has less KO power, shine's kb isn't percent-independent, laser damage less from more distance, more endlag on up-B, Marth has less landing lag on dair) but nothing that changes the matchup drastically.
Super Smash Bros Brawl Complete Soundtrack as a pm marth, I think fox Marth is even. While fox is a little less volatile he's much more consistent due to lack of 1 frame backdashes and 1 more frame of leniency to short hop. As for falcon, he's the same character with a few QOL changes. He has an actual sweetspot with up b, can grab ledge with side b, and had a much more normalized spot dodge. What makes falcon seem so good is the huge representation of floaty characters in the game that falcon can manhandle, and the lack of rep of the fast fallers falcon is known to struggle with.
Why does everyone assume that I'm whining when I say Marth beats Fox? So damn tired of this. I don't even main Fox, but it's obvious he loses. He loses in every important way possible, only having a better shield. Marth perfectly counters his recovery, wins on the ground, beats platform movement, and is impossible to approach because dash back pivoting defeats everything. He vastly outranges Fox, and corners him perfectly, then beats his full hop out. He punishes Fox far harder, recovers reliably better than Fox, and clearly wins neutral when played correctly, I.e not swinging unless guaranteed and applying heavy pressure through presence. Laser is extremely risky, and Fox has garbage punish against Marth if you sdi up airs. Fox just has an up smash and a shine. Logically Marth wins in every which way. Fox isn't even close to being broken in any level of play. This is unproductive, unprofessional, and and doesn't address any matchup anything- what does Armada even mean by "superior neutral"? He can't even define that. This is literally a video for Armada to bitch about Fox again. That does nothing but shape the mentality of the people in a way both untrue and unhelpful. This is an incredibly low quality of video in every way.
If you complain about matchup then you're only going to make yourself sound stupid. Nobody should complain because you are making the decision to play a character that losses the matchup.
Yeah lol Its no longer a discussion about the actual matchup, its just non-Fox players circle jerking hate towards Fox players for having a slightly different opinion on the Fox Marth matchup.
Nah, it's circlejerking that Foxes ever complain about MUs. Most characters have bad or even MUs that they just have to suck up and work for. Fox gives every character except two a hard time. It's the same deal with Fox v Falco: Foxes traditionally hate the Falco MU because it's the one MU where Fox doesn't have nearly the same neutral game control, but suprise suprise Fox still slightly wins the MU.
There you have it boys, stop complaining and don't actually learn the matchup because other character have worse matchups than fox, very useful tech by the #1 player 😎😂
I hate marth because even at medium level, the skill required to play him well is comparable with that of puff. Obviously things are different the higher in skill the players get, but even then at top level marth is way easier to play than fox.
Marth is not "way easier" than Fox at almost all levels. Marth may be less technically/physically straining, but to play Marth well, you need to micro-optimize so many things (like spacing perfectly [more important than other chars cuz of tipper], knowing where and how to utilize all the hitboxes on all of his attacks [arguably the hardest part of Marth], perfecting movement with dashdancing and long/short wavedashes, etc). If you don't know exactly what you're doing as Fox, it isn't as punishing because Fox has options that compensate, like how you can go for a lot of stuff and shine immediately after and almost guarantee hitting your opponent if they blindly rush in to punish, which isn't what a good Marth would do, btw. Try playing Marth against a 20XX CPU and doing stuff like chaingrabbing. Fox can jump or shine out after like 24% every time if you time it perfectly, which happens more often at the top level. TL;DR: If the Fox doesn't know what he's doing, Marth wins (if Marth knows what he's doing) harder than Fox (if Fox knew what he was doing) at most levels other than top, but at top level Melee, Fox wins basically either way if the Fox player is super good at the matchup.
Lol pressing down+b or having detailed knowledge of 3 different hitboxes on every aerial and needing perfect pivots to perform his most basic combos and kill confirms. (Fox is still techincal but honestly marth is just as technical in a different way)
"Fox is the Bill Gates of Melee" -Armada 2017
Mahruru
Doens't Armada believe Peach is the best ? :)
Does that make Falco the Jeff Bezos of Melee?
Other way around, I suppose
Mahruru im putting this on a shirt
At least Bill Gates is honest! *Ba dum tss*
Bill "Fox McCloud" Gates
this has to be the best melee content coming out on youtube. you always know exactly what you’re about to see and it’s always well said and to the point
If PPU were a fox main he'd be Kevin TenToys
Craig Tucker not Kevin Toyriah?
Oh no fox might have one bad matchup that's not even that bad! Whatever shall all the fox mains do! Oh no!
Armada hit the nail on the head with this one. I'm tired of leffen bitching about marth while he mains fox
This is actually really rare for me to say this, but I actually agree with Leffen on this one. I'd say either Fox or Marth is #1, so if either side was just randomly bitching about the other MU, I'd agree completely with Armada.But Leffen wasn't just complaining to complain. He was asking people how to deal with the MU (while trash talking everyone). Basically he was trying to learn how to play a "losing" MU not just complain.
XCorazónX It's soo funny too. Because leffen use to say.. " it's hard for me not to 3 stock m2k on FD" most smashers just wanna complain when they lose
The Last Resort if you look at his Twitter he posts hella shit about it
Marths overrated hes 2nd at best 4th at worst
No need just seen decent amount of people put Marth over Falco while I believe Marths a solid 3rd, its opinions why would I need proof just from what Ive seen.
Armada so smart and rational, all of what he says seems so well thought out, and the comparisons Armada uses to compliment his ideas are actually too good. Keep up the great videos!
Fox is like Bill Gates who gets some toys taken away
Conclusion: Mew2king wins
Checkmates atheists
A skilled Roy can beat Fox and Marth.
A skilled anything can beat any character
Baby Matter Not in the year 20XX
Baby Matter a skilled fox can beat any Kirby
Everything in this video was spot on perfect with fox being so dominant in all these matchups and then having a maybe 45/55 matchup and crying about it. 10/10 video my friend
"The Fox-Marth matchup is unbalanced! Chaingrabs!"
As a Fox main, I have 2 things to help out with people feeling this way about chaingrabbing-Marths.
1. Realize it's not that the match up is bad, it's just that you struggle with it, which simply means you have to practice it more.
2. Don't get grabbed. Be smart, move, dodge, force approaches with SHFFLing and punish whiffs, don't just nair on shield for the 100'th time.
Armada can you talk about the marth vs falco matchup?
How does complaining as Fox in general make any sense?
It's annoying how everyone expects the Marth to SDI fox upair to live, but nobody expects fox to SDI Marths upair to escape combos.
Love Armada's analogies
As a Marth I totally agree. I think the matchup is 50/50, I see the arguments for both sides, but definitely Fox wins except FD. I love fighting Foxes though. Such a volatile matchup, both characters get to show off their neutral games, punishes, and edgeguarding really well. I've been zero to deathed first stock against Foxes and brought it back, so I don't think either really has room to complain.
The god has spoken
anyone notice how armada says 'I believe' instead of 'I think' now lol
I absolutely love listening to Armada or PPMD talk about melee knowledge. Not this specific video, but more the analysis ones.
The tools that both Marth and Fox have makes them incredible characters, but there are at least 7+ characters that are definitely viable to win tournaments. Complaining about matchups holds people back from adapting to their opponent.
This makes solid sense coming from Armada. Fox complaining about matchups? Try becoming #1 in the world with Peach.
HBox: I hate how hypocritical this community can be sometimes. Armada: You play by Fox's rules.
i´m a pichu main, i´m already happy when i land a move that doesn´t hurt me. any match up better then 95/5 is a dream for me
how to play pichu a guide from m2k:
nair.
Pichu has a lot of MUs better than 95/5 LOL no MU is that bad in the game
Armada's analogies are always on point
'Human beings are very good at getting used to things' Armada confirmed robot
The reason foxes complain is that you have to grind out so much tech skill just to get combo'd hard by a character who's execution isn't as time-sensitive. But I guess thats what you sign up for when you pick the most technical character in the game.
Dude, you hit the nail on the head with this one. Really nice thoughts on matchup complaints.
Holy shit armada you actually make the best videos with (in my opinion) the least biased and most level headed insight
Thanks =)
Happy you like them!
dang armada makes really good analogies on the spot
"Fox is the spoiled brat of melee"
-me lol
If fox is bill gates does that mean Kirby is a homeless person?
Eduardo Aguilar Kirby is a dead man who left crippling debt on his family compared to Fox (Bill Gates)
Shots fired
What are your thoughts on luigi in general?
I would like to hear what you think about him in the current meta.
I'd like to see Armada optimize the fox vs marth matchup.
Are all the Fox mains going to switch to Marth now?
armada out here saying this in 2017 thats some goat shit
What's wrong with the audio?
I main peach and the only character I complain about is puff
Armada stays laying out the facts! Keep up the content!
I think complaining about certain MU with fox is something people could do, if they are just complaining about the fact they can't play the MU well and not speaking of the MU in general
It's kinda like M2K complaining about Ice's, he knows that Peach should win the MU, but he still complains cause he can't find out a solution de consistently beat Ice's, and he find it hard
If you know what I mean
I play alot of smash 4 and I actually dont like some MU that aren't bad for my character, but that's like that, and I'll often complain that this character got thoose things that makes me struggle
That's kind of a John when you think to it, but it happens to anybody imo
To those who want to comment about Leffen complaining about Marth, preeeeeeetty sure he's just upset that he's not good at the matchup right now. Let him get the salt out of the way while he figures out if he should relearn the matchup or switches characters. I'd personally love to see him play Falco, his original main.
Honestly most of the popular tournament characters that are viable don't have nearly as much to complain about as Roy, Pichu, Kirby and Bowser...if anyone should be complaining it's them...and Captain Falcon about the Fox matchup, because Fox gimps Falcon so easily....it's just like...why....
2:13 Armada WOKE AF on the distribution of wealth by the modern governmental systems of this planet.
I thought the Bill Gates comparison was gonna be awful until he explained it. Amazing analogy.
Update video needed.
Fox beats everyone because he was designed to. Read the adventure mode fox mccloud trophy description, it says, "he's better at one-on-one fights than melees with multiple foes"
I feel like lasers give quite the edge to Fox. Amazing neutral tool that allows for a passive, campy play while still being low commitment to some degree. Marth lacks this, so it seems as though Marth has to approach.
The dislikes on this video are Leffen and his alts
I think Marth has a positive to even MU on certain stages if Marth can kill Fox before he reaches a certain percent.
Armada is S tier in the analogy metagame
20xx will happen once marth gives in
Fox Players that complain: I have no bad matchups, woe is me :((((((((
Made a video about marth 2020 your thoughts about ibdw vs zain and talk about:
empty grab
And the thing that leffens do with sheik
and faceroll vs the top 3 (Mango, zain, none)
And thus, Fox privilege was born.
Even Armada, who is not only a master of punishing, but also says people can optimise punishing with many characters, says Marth's comboes on Fox off FD are overrated. Finally someone --- the best player, in this case --- agrees with me!
An apt description of privilege, Melee style :P
Would you say fox is the best character?
Im YooPers Armada definitely thinks fox is the best character. Source:Smash Summit 1 god couch commentary
I scrubbed the floor with a decent fox player one time and he told me to pick another character because he thought the matchup wasn't fun...
I was playing Luigi
To be fair, that matchup is not very fun as Fox. Although Fox wins it's annoying and just not very fun
in other words... fox privilege.
i feel like a lot of this applies to marth mains as well (and falco). Babies.
somebody send this to leffen
I do believe is the new I think
Armada hasn't played PPMD or a good Marth vs his Fox in a long time he smart and goes Peach. Because he has to work harder with Fox which is understandable the Matchups for others is easier if he plays fox for how commons and How long people have analyzed how to beat fox
I give M2k practice in the MU once in a while, despite not being tournament matches I do know what playing against his Marth feels like.
We go super even, some sessions I win slightly more some sessions he does
Armada ah okay gotcha. I thought you were basing this more of the point of view from Peach. Thanks for the reply!
"I come from a different background as other foxes"
Aka I'm better
someone please tell leffen to take some notes
Any character can win all depends on the player.
Here in 2020 and all the fox mains are saying they're gonna switch to sheik because the fox-marth matchup is "impossible."
Yeah ok.
funny though armada goes peach vs marth then fox hmmm thinking..
Then why does armada still play peach against marth lmao
Have you ever heard AXE complain about match-ups? No, because he plays pikachu. But, that doesn't stop him from being a top 10 player. GIT GUD!
MATTierial he does, he's considering picking up a secondary for sheik because the matchup is so bad.
Armada straight up said fox is the spoiled brat of melee. He right though.
I do legitimately think marth has an advantage in the matchup, and marth has been proven to be getting better results in the head to head.
What about in project m?
Pretty much the same. A few small changes in favour of Marth (Fox's up-smash has less KO power, shine's kb isn't percent-independent, laser damage less from more distance, more endlag on up-B, Marth has less landing lag on dair) but nothing that changes the matchup drastically.
kinda off topic, but i think they made captain falcon muuuuuuuuuuuch better
Super Smash Bros Brawl Complete Soundtrack as a pm marth, I think fox Marth is even. While fox is a little less volatile he's much more consistent due to lack of 1 frame backdashes and 1 more frame of leniency to short hop.
As for falcon, he's the same character with a few QOL changes. He has an actual sweetspot with up b, can grab ledge with side b, and had a much more normalized spot dodge. What makes falcon seem so good is the huge representation of floaty characters in the game that falcon can manhandle, and the lack of rep of the fast fallers falcon is known to struggle with.
You still clearly prefer Peach-Marth
Was hoping for more analysis on the matchup itself instead of just saying "Fox players shouldnt complain."
THANK YOU, ARMADA! I also thought it was really stupid and pointless that Leffen was crying about it and being an ass about it on twitter.
Fox privilege
Fox > Marth
Done
RealLoader
fox >= marth
TL;DW
Fox is slightly better vs Marth except on FD
as a fox player i think is a good mu,in pal is also more fun
So another words, if you main Fox, *STOP COMPLAINING!* You sound like a bunch of Bill Gates complaining about not being rich enough.
Why does everyone assume that I'm whining when I say Marth beats Fox? So damn tired of this. I don't even main Fox, but it's obvious he loses. He loses in every important way possible, only having a better shield.
Marth perfectly counters his recovery, wins on the ground, beats platform movement, and is impossible to approach because dash back pivoting defeats everything. He vastly outranges Fox, and corners him perfectly, then beats his full hop out. He punishes Fox far harder, recovers reliably better than Fox, and clearly wins neutral when played correctly, I.e not swinging unless guaranteed and applying heavy pressure through presence.
Laser is extremely risky, and Fox has garbage punish against Marth if you sdi up airs. Fox just has an up smash and a shine.
Logically Marth wins in every which way. Fox isn't even close to being broken in any level of play. This is unproductive, unprofessional, and and doesn't address any matchup anything- what does Armada even mean by "superior neutral"? He can't even define that.
This is literally a video for Armada to bitch about Fox again. That does nothing but shape the mentality of the people in a way both untrue and unhelpful. This is an incredibly low quality of video in every way.
Freemont Freemantle fox beats marth on the ground and on platforms.
If you complain about matchup then you're only going to make yourself sound stupid. Nobody should complain because you are making the decision to play a character that losses the matchup.
I still think marth is cancer but you make a great point honestly
NostalgiaFactor thanks
But Marth is da best, though I think the MU is even
Nice profile pic
Dr. Fyfe lmao thanks, yours is awesome.
640 Views. 64 Likes, 0 Dislikes. B)
What about when Armada loses? Isn't he the Bill Gates?
Fox is the best
Marth fox discussion turns into fox's shouldnt complain about match ups...hmmmm interesting and valid points lol
Yeah lol Its no longer a discussion about the actual matchup, its just non-Fox players circle jerking hate towards Fox players for having a slightly different opinion on the Fox Marth matchup.
Nah, it's circlejerking that Foxes ever complain about MUs. Most characters have bad or even MUs that they just have to suck up and work for. Fox gives every character except two a hard time. It's the same deal with Fox v Falco: Foxes traditionally hate the Falco MU because it's the one MU where Fox doesn't have nearly the same neutral game control, but suprise suprise Fox still slightly wins the MU.
Sonic > marth > fox
So funny fox players crying themselves to sleep over a MU they probably win lol
@MuteCitizenMaster **a skilled Roy can 2v1 any fox and Marth team***
Marth beats fox
What is the point of just posting an opinion with no actual points lol
There you have it boys, stop complaining and don't actually learn the matchup because other character have worse matchups than fox, very useful tech by the #1 player 😎😂
Comment
Roy > Fox
244th !
Second
Fox is overrated.
I hate marth because even at medium level, the skill required to play him well is comparable with that of puff. Obviously things are different the higher in skill the players get, but even then at top level marth is way easier to play than fox.
NostalgiaFactor Fox tech skill difficulty is incredibly overrated.
Marth is not "way easier" than Fox at almost all levels. Marth may be less technically/physically straining, but to play Marth well, you need to micro-optimize so many things (like spacing perfectly [more important than other chars cuz of tipper], knowing where and how to utilize all the hitboxes on all of his attacks [arguably the hardest part of Marth], perfecting movement with dashdancing and long/short wavedashes, etc). If you don't know exactly what you're doing as Fox, it isn't as punishing because Fox has options that compensate, like how you can go for a lot of stuff and shine immediately after and almost guarantee hitting your opponent if they blindly rush in to punish, which isn't what a good Marth would do, btw. Try playing Marth against a 20XX CPU and doing stuff like chaingrabbing. Fox can jump or shine out after like 24% every time if you time it perfectly, which happens more often at the top level.
TL;DR: If the Fox doesn't know what he's doing, Marth wins (if Marth knows what he's doing) harder than Fox (if Fox knew what he was doing) at most levels other than top, but at top level Melee, Fox wins basically either way if the Fox player is super good at the matchup.
holy hell that's the most ignorant thing i've ever heard
you don't know a thing about top level melee.
Me?
Lol pressing down+b or having detailed knowledge of 3 different hitboxes on every aerial and needing perfect pivots to perform his most basic combos and kill confirms. (Fox is still techincal but honestly marth is just as technical in a different way)