Lateen Sail How it Works, Rigging and Sailing.
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- Опубликовано: 24 окт 2020
- I'll will quickly show you how a lateen sail works by rigging and sailing a traditional Tagus wooden boat that we care for at the club. These smaller boats are called "Catraios".
This boat was in a warehouse for decades and it was in a really bad state. Last year it was restored by a local lad who unfortunately passed away.
He never finished the work nor even tried the boat.😔
Nowadays it is at the sailing club's care and we will try to keep it in sailing condition.
I have rigged a small lateen sail and finished all the cleats, mast step and other parts so that we can try her out .
It was not perfect but it was fun as always!😉
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#SailingForFun #Sailing4fun 
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Simple,versatile,beatiful I love lateen sails.
That was really interesting. I'm currently reading a book about the history of the oceans and how people moved across them, developed trade routes, etc., and there are so many different rigs mentioned that I know nothing about - your video has clarified much about the lateen rig for me. It's a beautiful, very ancient rig and the traditional boats in your video are quite stunning - so much more attractive than modern boats, at least to my mind (and I'm sure many others). Thanks!
I totally agree with you! These boats have a soul.... 😉
Hi Bob, could you share the book name? sounds interesting
@@kamon242 Hi Nicolás, it’s “The Boundless Sea” by David Abulafia. I hope you enjoy it as much I have been - I still have a long way to go…
I love the sound of wooden boats it fills me with a sense longing and nostalgia. I have never sailed before, but when I took a "tour" of the USS Sloop-of-War Constellation my interest in sailing began and now two years later I still have not sailed because I live in a landlocked state in the USA, but my love of sailing has not waned if anything it has became much stronger. My mother recently passed and I was going to live with my stepdad in Florida, but my grandparents are trying to prevent me and my brother from living with him and because my mom and stepdad weren't legally married nor did my mom have a will we would have to go with my grandparents, but they are preventing us from living with who we want to live with. We have to live in Pennsylvania which I hate. There is no ocean, no sandy beaches and a depressing winter with horrible schools. I can't live with my stepdad nor can I sail which I have wanted to do for two years and the very idea of not being able to sail ever not even once it kills me.
Such a pleasure to see a skilled sailor who has such joy for sailing. These are great videos. Thanks.
Thank you Kevin!
I'm not very experienced with Lateen sails, and this was actually the second time I rigged and sailed one!
Good thing they are simple to sail in smaller boats! 😁
I have always been fascinated by the lanteen rig, thank you.
Hi Stewart!
The Lateen rig's simplicity v performance is amazing. Love it!😉
I once saw a lateen-rigged dinghy with an aluminium A frame mast, with the yard suspended from the apex and the sail in the centre. No bad tack! No lines or stays pressing on the sail! It looked amazing and was the fastest boat on the water.
Nonstandard masts are such a fascinating concept. I wonder what we missed just because we kept doing things the same way
@@KarolOfGutovo absolutely. The domination of the bermudan rig is bizarre. Not everyone races, and not everyone wants to spend vast amounts on the gadgets you need to make a bermudan useable for cruising or just single-handed day sailing.
There are so many fascinating alternatives that are often simpler, cheaper and easier to use. Imagine what you might come up with, starting with a blank sheet?
My current favorite is the cambered-panel modern junk rig. There are even aerofoil section versions, and a "split" version with headsails. The junk is probably the future of sail-assisted commercial shipping, as well.
@@lukedogwalker A fellow junk rig enthusiast. Lovely sail. I hope I'll get to take one for a spin
Thanks for the explanations. Great video awesome quality and editing. Thanks for sharing your passion with us. 👍🏻✌🏻🇨🇦
Thank you!
I have loved everything sailing since I can remember, thanks to my father who built a little sailing dinghy when I was 6!
How can one not like sailing? 😉
So great to see you curating and teaching the younger generation about these incredible boats.
The first step to getting the kids to love these boats starts in the Optis where they learn to love sailing, then It's just a matter of educating them on the local culture. 😉
the lateen rig was featured on one of my favorite sword and sorcery covers: "swords against death"... always hypnotized by that look.
So beautiful to watch and very interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it Thomas!
Ancient and brilliant technology!
Excellent! I first leaned how to sail in a canoe in Lake Ontario which my father had rigged with a lateen sail and sideboards. It sure taught me about how important weight distribution is in a small boat.
I'm just in the process of researching sails to rig my Old Town hybrid solo canoe with a lateen sail (I'm in New Brunswick and sail mostly in the ocean and wider river estuaries). I'm going to try using the spar cut off about 10 -12" from the bottom of the sail...just enough so I can dip the spar on tacking (there will be a rope tied from the lower end of the spar to the tack of the sail which will not interfere with dipping around the mast. I'm all on paper so far and am ordering materials. It'll be a 29 sq ft sail area for a 11' 9" flat bottom canoe but I already have an outrigger set up for when I want to stand up to fish. The lateen is very interesting.
That is a Portuguese accent for sure. Lovely boat Portuguese sailor.
Obrigado! Abraço! 😉
Thanks for showing how the rigs work, fascinating & you have a pleasant way of doing so.
Thanks Daniel!
Hopefully this season we can get her a better sail. 😉
This rig type and the sail look beautiful
Great video and beautiful boat!
They are beautiful boats ,
Parabéns! E um bem haja por conservar as embarcações portuguesas que já são tão poucas! E uma pena ver o nosso legado das nossas gentes a desaparecer!
Obrigado!
Aqui nesta zona há uma comunidade ativa na conservação destes barcos.🙂
So cool. Thank you.
I am currently playing a semi realistic sailing simulation video game called Sailwind and i am using a dhow rigged with a lateen. As i was unhappy with its speed I added a cutter jib. Your video helped a lot in understanding how to use the lateen, thanks a lot!
Nice one!! I'm glad it was helpful! 😉
This... silly little comment helped me find one of my favorite games
Its a beautiful boat, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching Glenn!
I always wanted to know what lateen sails do on „the other“ tack… Now I know. Thank you!
Simple rig, good performance.
+
Lovely boat & nice simple rig. I think it'd make a very good cruising dinghy
So educational, thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Interesting sail.
Interesting rig.
I dream of a boat like this!
Great vid on the rig and a beautiful boat. Those style of rigs really fascinate me, they seem so elegant and simple.
Thanks!
It is a really simple rig but not easy to sail in strong winds due to the gybes, and also if there is a flying jib the Yard can get caught on it and it's panic at sea!! 😅😜
Thanks Tim!😉!
I have seen it done but I have never sailed nor even been on a boat with a dipping lateen sail.
Keep us posted on how it goes next time! 😉
Hi Tim!
We use no such line.
Without seeing your setup I might try to guess....
If you noticed most lateen rigged sail boats have either the mast way closer to the bow than gaffers do or the mast is raked forward so that the tip of the mast is way forward. This is so that the weight of the yard is more on the aft portion than on the front of the yard.
If the yard is heavier from the mast tip forward it will tend to dip(go vertical). But like I said it's just guess work.
Bravo!.. from Greece.
Thank you Manos!! 😉
These kind of rigging is absolutely unknown here at Lake Constance it is very interesting to see how it works, how halyards and preventer (of the yard) etc. is rigged. Thank you!
Thanks Axel, glad you liked it! 😉
This rig is known for beating much better than any gaff rigged boat around here.
great video. Thank you.
Glad you liked it! 😄
This is such a classic rig. Wish I could rig a lateen sail on my trimaran.
Your rig is quite nice and efficient too.
But with enough imagination and the right mods....anything is possible!😁
thank you my friend perfect...
Thanks for watching Cihangir!
very nice... good work.
Thanks a lot
nice boat n sail ⛵👍🏴☠️
Thanks!
I'm really glad that you did this video. I have always liked the older sailing rig styles, but never got any experience with them as they are not really used that often here. But if I were going to build a new boat or refurbish and re-rig a boat. I would definitely consider a Lateen or a Gaf rig. I really dislike sailing Bermuda rigs with stayed sails. I realize that they are more performance oriented, but I'm not a performance or Olympic sailor. The simpler the better in my opinion. Simple means less cost and ease of repair, not to mention that there are less lines and less moving parts to jam or chafe or wear out.
I have had two mid-sized boats a 25' and a 30', the 30' was one size larger of everything than the 25'. So all the rigging was 3/8' instead of 1/4' all the winches were just one size bigger. All the lines were just one size bigger...bumpers, fenders, cushions...etc., etc. It all adds up and over time, makes owning and using the boat less enjoyable and less doable.
After that, I came to the conclusion that for me personally, a boat need not be "big", but rather described as a "good fit". So, now a stoutly built and well laid out 23'-24' boat with the simplest rig and the most usability, that is trailerable, but can still venture off shore a bit, is the ideal adventure machine. Along with being able to get into the shallows or be beached is where it's at. There are very few boats out there that fit this description and most likely it means building a boat custom tailored to ones needs/wants is what will ultimately have to happen.
Has anyone ever rigged a small catamaran with a Lateen rig? Maybe a Tiki-26 or something like that?
HI!
Sorry for the late reply but your comment was held as possible spam by YT!!
I bought a 30ft Cruiser and so far all I managed to do is fix stuff! I do agree that a small boat can be just as fun as a bigger one.
But If I had the money I would probably get a Southerly 28 or 95. Not the best performance but the ability to beach a 30ft boat is priceless in my opinion. And ofc you could go offshore with it no problems at all.
As far as the lateen sail...I must be honest, I like the gaff rigged cutter more.
I don't know anyone with a lateen rigged pure cat, but there are some multi-hulls with lateen sails, specially the more traditional islander boats/canoes ect.
@@TheBoatRambler Thanks for the reply. Yes I know you bought a twin bilge keel boat. I watched a few of your videos on my other channel. I love twin bilge keel boats and was recently looking at a Westerly but it sold before I could get a good look at it.
I've decided to just build a new boat. It will take me a year, but when I'm finished, it will be a new boat...my first completely new boat. But it's got to be trailerable, beachable, super shallow draft and able to handle coastal cruising and passage making between islands, and have a lot of storage space and modest accommodations. The Tiki series of boats has all of those things along with many other Cat. designs. But I've never owned a Cat.. I've sailed a few and have built parts for one. But never any real living aboard or off shore sailing on a Cat.
Have you ever read "Riddle Of The Sands", by Erskine Childers? That boat would be perfect with some long, shallow bilge keels and a traditional rig like a Gaf. I'm wanting to rig my boat using all Dyneema...no Stainless Steel Cable or blingy fittings. Just fully utilitarian and ultra-strong, lightweight fittings and hardware. I'm through with showboating. I've spent countless thousands upon thousands refitting boats and making them "look" perfect. With all these new materials that are available now, and applying them to traditional designs, changes all things sailing drastically.
I'm planning on living aboard, travelling and camper cruising my boat in the S. Pacific from Thailand to Malaysia, to Indonesia and back again. The simpler the systems and rig, the better.
Bravo! Um video super-fascinante. E parabens em manter estas tradic,oes para as gerac,oes que vem. Gostei, fiz 'Subscribe'.
Obrigado Phil! Welcome aboard!😉
a tentar perceber as diferenças entre ess barco e os que se vem por ai com motor
Technically a settee sail because the front end is cut off giving it a quadrilateral shape instead of triangular.
Many thanks for an excellent tutorial. I'm thinking of using this rig and this has answered many of my questions.
Glad it was helpful David! 😉
There are other really handy lines that can be used on a lateen sail, the brailing lines. Have a look here:
ruclips.net/video/O_s9eG2TA_M/видео.html
With the yard always on one side, do you notice if the sail is more effective on one tack or the other?
Hello! I'm building a lateen-rigged dinghy at home, and I was wondering how the yard is connected to the mast at the top, and how the halyard operates. Thank you!
Hi Jacob!
around here the mast has a sheave/pulley in a hole/cutout in the mast. the halyard goes through it and ties to the yard. That's it! no more complicated than this. In this video at around minute 7,20 you can see Bruno conecting and hoisting the yard on Princesa do Tejo.
ruclips.net/video/O_s9eG2TA_M/видео.html
Thank you so much. Most informative. I sail traditional Nordic working boats and viking ships in Denmark, but have a passion for lateen rigged boats, both Mediterranean and dhows. Where do you sail out of, and what tradition does this fine boat come from?
Wish you a good season.
- Johannes
Hi Jhoannes,
I sail the Tagus estuary and these are Tagus boats. The small ones like this one are called "catraios do tejo" and the bigger sisters are "canoas do Tejo". They were used for fishing and for cargo, as well as to transport people across the river to and from Lisbon before the bridges were built. there are a couple of videos on my channel which might give a better insight on this.
ruclips.net/video/S-XJRCjBk-A/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/oaaMgkCiB3s/видео.html
O barco é lindíssimo e os seus vídeos são realmente muito interessantes. Espero que continue a mostrar-nos a tradição portuguesa da vela latina. O seu clube aceita visitantes? Bom vento de um amigo italiano!
You can visit the club any time you want but most activities are during the weekend 2-3 hours each side of high tide.
Parabéns pelo vídeo e pelas informações, tenho uma grande paixão por embarcações de vela latina sou brasileiro e tenho um saveiro, embarcação típica daqui da minha região, salvador Bahia. Fiquei muito interessado no Mestre Lopes, seria possível conseguir os planos de construção?
Mais uma vez parabéns pelo vídeo.
Obrigado Antonio!
Infelizmente estes barcos eram feitos "a olho", não existem planos disponiveis em lado nenhum.
O museu da marinha tem planos de uma "canoa do tejo" ( igual a estes barcos mas com 9 metros).
Talvez se tentar contactar essa instituição eles lhe forneçam os planos.
Abraço
Taller mast and/or bigger sail for more speed? What about the keel or ballast?
Hi!
These boats don't use ballast and have only a small keel running the full length of the hull. The reason for this is that they were supposed to sail loaded with ppl or cargo so no ballast was needed.
As for the mast, the mast used here in this video is actually too big for this boat. Lateen rigged boats have smaller masts than most rig since the yard itself goes very high. The sail could be a bit bigger but most importantly it should be a sail made specifically for this boat and not one borrowed from another boat.
Hi, I have a question. How does these boats do not get capsized when they got wind from the sides? I ask this question because the boats have no keel or any weight under the water to balance them.
Hi Celil
They rely on the hull shape and weight to stay upright. Let's see if I can explain it 😅 ...To capsize the boat there needs to be enough force on one side of the sail to sink the hull's volume of air on the opposite side of the boat (many hundreds of liters/kilos) + whatever weight is lifted off the water on the other side, this includes the hull itself and the crew. Does this make sense?
@@TheBoatRambler Thank you. I have a wooden fishing boat which has 5.10m lenght, 1.60m breadth and 50cm depth. I am planning to put a lateen style sails on it on this summer. As I have no sailing experience other than RUclips videos I was wondering how it would be. There isn't any people left who knows about sails where I live, so I feel like inventing the sails for the first time.
Brilliant video. I absolutely adore these lateen rigs - they're so elegant!
Would love to try setting one on a small craft, but I'm confused about how you would reef one of these sails. Is it actually possible to reef a traditional lateen?
Thank you!
it is possible to reef yes. Some guys chose to have reef line close to the yard, others all the way down. But to be honest they don't use it often. I have never seen Princesa with a reefed sail...although for next season Bruno will try a new reef line setup.
On this little boat the small sail could be reefed temporarily by using the brailing lines , which I didn't actually rig for this video....😬
@@TheBoatRambler Ah, I'd wondered if they reefed up to the yard. I thought this might disturb the airflow over the luff a bit too much.
I never even considered using brailing lines like that to reduce the sail! Alas, I only discovered your channel a few days ago while searching for videos on lateen sailing, and it's been very entertaining and educational. I was just watching one of your other videos on Princesa and it highlighted the use of the orcas to scandalise the top of the sail in stronger wind. Seems I still have much to learn!
Hi,
I'm no expert on lateen rigs, still learning the "ropes" ... 😉
The brailing lines are only a temporary solution to quickly reduce sail area, very useful when gybing in strong winds too.
Regarding reefing, Papa Milhas is slightly lighter that Princesa do Tejo but they both have the same sail area.
To be able to sail in the same strong winds Papa Milhas needs to reef earlier. She reefs to the yard as you can see in this video.
ruclips.net/video/CCkSBodU-EY/видео.html
@@TheBoatRambler Thank you! That's very useful to see - I'd not been able to find any images online showing a reefed lateen before 🙂 It looks much more streamlined and less cumbersome than my imagination had me thinking!
Looking at Papa Milhas, would I be right to say reefing involved first brailing in, and then tightly securing the loose sail to the yard to make the surface taut again?
@@Ashlynn.HudsonWelburn this type of reefing is not easy to do underway, a bit easier if you have plenty of crew ofc. Usually according to wind prediction they will leave port with the reef already on or not.
We sail mainly the river and estuary, and the next sheltered place is never more than 30-45 minutes away so reefing is not exactly a perfected skill around this area!😅
Is the sail cut flat or does it have shape? Thanks
The sail should have a proper shape.
esse é mais direito,mais comprido para usar com vela no rio, os outros mais curtos originalmente para usar a remos e depois adaptados a motor?
@pedrorodrigues6964 este barco é um modelao especifico do tejo, o Catraio. Eram feitos por mestres a olho sem planos mas são todos muito parecidos.
O modelo surgiu para a vela pois motores não havia. devido a isso os cascos têm linhas propicias para a arte da vela, mesmo os mais bojudos (maior barriga) que levavam mais carga.
@@TheBoatRambler os meus exemplos são os do rio Arade, Portimão. são mais pequenos e parece que a proa é mais alta , não tenho memória de ver velas por lá. alguns com remos e motores adaptados para passear os bifes.
That looks great and a beautiful place where in Portugal are you 👌
Hi!
Im in Gaio Rosario, Tagus estuary south of Lisbon.
@@TheBoatRambler thank you ,I’m driving around in Portugal and thinking it is worth a visit 😎🌞
@@nielsenhp you are welcome to drive by, 😉 although all tradicional boats are off the water or docked for winter.
Does a lateen sail design to tack up wind ?
Lateen rigged boats here in the Tagus river go upwind better than all other gaff rigged boats even on the "bad tack" with the sail pressed against the mast. No one here dips the yard to the other tack.
I thought lateen were operated on unstayed masts due to the conflict with rigging? At least the way I've seen them on dhows.
Hi!
there are so many different ways to rig a sail it is not easy to know which one is the right way.. or if there's even a wrong way.
In this area all Lateen rigged boats have shrouds. I have also seen (in videos only) boats with running stays almost like the running back stays but in place of the shrouds. To be honest the shrouds on our boats don't seem to cause any problems what so ever.😉
@@TheBoatRambler thank you.
@@utoobuser206 could also be Mast height and thickness. if you have a short strong mast you might get away with it like on the Brazilian Schooners ( Sailing Yaba on YT) there are alot of things about sailing. diffrent region having their own speciality.
Thanx. Lovely boat.
What is the name and location of the sailing club please ?
Hi Charles.
The club is Beira Mar Nautica and it's on an old Shipyard premises, located in Gaio, Portugal.
38.67046371,-9.00742123
facebook.com/Beira-Mar-n%C3%A1utica-838541892922891
@@TheBoatRambler great thankyou
Do these traditional lateens ever reef?
Hi Mr!
It's not usual to reef around this area. Most of the Tagus Boats don't even have a reef line! They were usually heavily loaded so they could carry the sail in strong winds with no problem or if it was too much they would just come to shore which is never more than 30 minutes away.
Nowadays due to the regattas ppl add a reef line but it is rarely used.
So the rigging on the port tack is different from the one on the starboard tack ??
Hi,
yes this boat is not rigged symmetrically. The lateen sail can be rigged as a dipping lateen sail so that every time one tacks the yard is dipped to the other side of the mast. In the Tagus region no one does that as it's really hard and dangerous in strong winds and requires more crew.
Do dhows ever have tillers?
Hi Mayleen.
From what I have seen (online) dhows do have rudders/tillers
.
@@TheBoatRambler Thank you! I am a writer, and I drew a detailed, inked diagram of my character’s dhow, complete with a hand carved tiller with some decorative designs. I then realized that the lateen sailboat you showed us in this video seems to have no tiller. You’ve just saved me a headache 😊
This boat and all sail boats in this area have tillers.
What do you write about? Any work published that we can have a look? drop a link here! 😉
@@TheBoatRambler Unfortunately, my first novel is neither finished nor published yet. I have made a book trailer for anyone who’d like to see. ruclips.net/video/atdJLDa5je4/видео.html
@@mayleespann4552 very cool! Keeps us posted!
Obrigada pela partilha... eu nunca tive oportunidade de velejar com uma vela "latina"
mas deu para perceber (ou ter uma ideia porreira) como ela é ajustada :)
Deixa-me partilhar um pequeno vídeo do Catraio "Mestre Lopes",
quando o Amigo Mário estava a restaura-lo...
facebook.com/edgar.couceiro/videos/1253482718024049
ABR :)
Obrigado pelo feedback.
Podes e deves partilhar livremente!! 😉
İts a mediterian piyade
More like a settee rig than a lateen, don’t you think?
Hi Jonh,
A believe a settee sail is still a lateen sail, isn't it? 😉
@@TheBoatRambler They are the same general sort of thing, but the lateen is triangular, and the settee has the front corner truncated to make it 4 sided.
@@mikefule330 thanks for the info.
You could find both types of sail on old Tejo boats but locally no one makes a distinction between them and they are both referred to as lateen sail.
Nowadays there is none with the simple triangle sail that I know of, only settee sails.
Q
This is great cuz' Marconi rigging is too mainstream!
Is no surprise that you guys take care of traditional sailing, Portugal once was a imperial sea force.
Here in Brazil we have a variation of a Lateen sail or rigging. Have this documentary about it:
ruclips.net/video/fI1LXqRUPzc/видео.html
Good winds, cheers from Brazil 🇧🇷
Thanks Rafael! I will watch that as soon as I have a bit of time! 😉
@@TheBoatRambler OK, I bet that you will enjoy it!
Amazing!! I hope I can be sailing and climbing the mast like he does when I'm 80!!
Thanks for the link!💪
Rafael,
I wonder if you mean Bermudan, rather than Marconi?
Bermudan refers to the shape of the triangular sail with a vertical luff, normal to the wind.
Marconi (after the radio engineer Guglielmo Marconi) refers to the way that modern masts are stayed.
www.cambridgeschoolofnavigation.co.uk/m-mike
@@johnstarkie9948 My mistake, I think Marconi/Bermudan are the same things.
I'm new to the sail world, still learning.
I really don't like this modern ridding, I don't care if is better somehow.
Is like fuel injection x carburetor, I'm a carburetor man.
... Why does no one ever show what anyone really needs to see....
Reefing . ....
You have to drop the yard to reef? Or climb aloft?
Hey Roon !
I would have shown it but it's really hard to reef a sail which has no reefing lines! 🤔
Around here different boats have different setups. Some reef at the top and then yes they have to drop the yard to do it.
Others reef at the foot of the sail and then it all depends how much crew they have aboard if they have to drop it or not.
Most boats also have brailing lines which can be used to temporarily reduce sail area, very useful to jibe in strong winds.
I will do a full rigging video on Princesa do Tejo soon.
Stay tuned.
@@TheBoatRambler
Much appreciated !
I love this rig , so simple , so beautiful , so classic over hundreds of years...
I just always wondered how to reef it .... I know the Portuguese had fairly large crews , and climbing to the Yard in foul weather was part of the Job of sailor back then .
The brailing lines are a neat idea? Simple solution .
I winder how a hybrid Lateen/Balanced Lug battens ( Junk) would do ...
So the brailing lines pull up the battens to whatever reef you want ( like folding in a Japanese fan ) , you'd have to have downhauls on the battens ends but....
Hmmm.....
Also subbed great channel ! Very informative . Most sailing channels are all flash and no knowledge .
Hey Roon,
the brailing lines are there mainly to fold sail and keep it bunched up by the yard. there are 4 or 5 on Princesa. They are independent from each other and when you pull the first one the first 4 feet of the sail (by the very tip of the yard) will bunch up close to the yard. same for the next ones.
Have a look at this video (minute 3: 30) , you can see the brailing lines and then the sail partially bunched up by a few seconds later.
ruclips.net/video/YlMheBITKo4/видео.html
On this other video you can see Princesa coming ashore sailing with 3 brailing lines pulled already.
ruclips.net/video/4JxQm6UfICk/видео.html
Okay, it can sail but it looks very annoying to sail. Sorry to be blunt You can't even properly tack, because port and starboard tack are different?
Not only it can sail but lateen sail rigged boats outperform all gaff rigged boats around here...by miles!
And the fact that the sail settles differently on each tack doesn't mean it "doesn't tack properly", the difference in performance is minimal. The same happens with lug sails.
😉
@@TheBoatRambler Hm. Okay, I will take your word for it then.