Manon is THE WORST in Street Fighter 6! Can the Season 2 Balance Patch save her?
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- So Manon. Manon has a strong argument for single worst character in Street Fighter 6. A character that has many traits shes supposed to be good at but in reality?... ehhh maybe not so much? A grappler that can't enforce grapples, low damage, zero defense, not traits that exactly inspire much confidence. So lets talk about what ideas we can give her for buffs for Season 2 of SF6! The idea is fun but fair, not just make her do a million damage on everything.
Check out the companion Lily video here! • Lily is TERRIBLE in St...
Check out the companion E. Honda video here! • E. Honda is AWFUL in S...
0:00 - Manon, the Worst?
2:55 - Ground Rules for buffs
3:28 - Quality of Life changes
7:20 - More opportunities for damage
10:15 - Let the grappler grapple
14:24 - Make spins not god awful
21:00 - Let them eat buffs
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So we did the Honda and Lily videos and in both peopled asked for a followup for Manon so here we are! Manon is... bad. You can make a real easy argument for her being the single worst character in Street Fighter 6. If anyone is in line for buffs in SF6 season 2 she would be the one. However what do you do? Her character design is so aimless and random what do you even target? So as with the other videos(linked in the vid description) lets talk about fun but fair buffs for the character that help her identity, and help her not be hot garbage lol
I think she has so many issues that buffs/fixes will take multiple seasons and patches, IMHO. That's how flawed she is.
I think a good buff for her would be to make ex spin connect of st lp. They did it for ed in sfv which added consistency and because it was attached to a lp it didn't do too much damage into ex psycho uppa.
Laser de judo français!!!
Remember week 1 when everyone thought she was top 3 and begging for nerfs?
And now we have known for 4 months she is the worst
And that's why they made the right decision to let people figure things out over time instead of making kneejerk balance changes based on the community's dumb takes.
@@zawarudoz☝🏾this.
And there's Tekken 8 after two months of release, there's already more than one balance patch and Bamco still can't find a solution to fix the game's problem....
It's wild to see the disparity in anti-fireball tools in this game; Manon and Jamie have double-digit unsafe get-in tools that are weird to use, meanwhile Cammy is out here pressing 214HP and a whole +3 on block for being wrong
What’s better is that Capcom made an effort to weaken anti-fireball tools for most of the cast then created a character that’s almost nothing but fireballs.
@@saltysteved3831 I don’t know if I agree per se, the ratio of characters with and without them feels about the same
Rashid has to do a full run for his anti fireball tool, and doesnt beat low fireballs and is minus as hell
As a Manon main I feel seen. When I picked up Juri as a secondary I literally said "This is how everyone else is playing the game?!?"
lol
Same shit happened to me I played Manon for that first month the game was out dropped them and picked Juri up and felt joy like I never have before
Her super should give you a medal imo
Regular throw should give you medals
Tbh, considering her lv3 is jumpable on super flash and it costs, you know, 3 bars... Why not give her 3 medals for landing it?
I love when people who use top tiers feel threatened by giving a grappler any buffs at all.
"Yeah, my guy has projectiles that can dominate the screen, a teleport, and a full screen Level 3, but if she hits her command throw 4 times it'll be really scary from the 5th time onwards!"
"I've got options at just about every range, plenty of moves that leave me plus on block, and I can burn Drive gauge for bonus damage, but you want to let a grappler have options against projectiles?!"
This "the game is broken if a grappler is good" stuff is pretty delu lu at this point, like Marisa has crazy damage and she's decent
John Velociraptor from EventHubs fits this description lol. He uses JP and plans to use Akuma (of course) and he always complains about grapplers being decent or getting any buffs for this very reason.
Someone high up in the Street Fighter dev team hated grapplers and took their shot.
This “someone must hate xy type character who made xy game and that’s why xy character sucks” is the most senseless bs people started puking out nowadays. Especially after how everyone on release thought for a fair amount of time that Manon is a contender for best character in the game.
@@arpadszabo661 Gee thanks for the input. Next time I’ll remember not to try and comment in an attempt at humor.
Mr. Capcom got hit by Zangief lvl3 during alpha testing and had more than enough
The grappler hate cabal are at the top of every gaming studio, even non fighting game ones.
How dare you make a joke!?! RUclips comments are a very serious place!! 😅@@GreenBro11
I love how direct you are so people won’t have the single bit of copium for her
Manon and Jamie have the same issue. Without their gimmick, they have to be worse than other characters. The problem is, neither of them are better than other characters when their gimmick is fully online.
Jamie is a lot lot better than Manon. His dr 5hp is pretty much uncheckable, has cancelable 2mk and after the patch getting drinks is a lot easier now
jamie is worlds better than manon when hes level 4, hes whole tiers above her. Jamie level 4 gets more options and can do more things, manon level 5 is the exact same character as level 1, just sometimes you do more damage
I think Jamie is a LOT closer to the mid tier than he is to Manon. Especially after his mini buffs.
@@rooflemonger I agree with all of these points. Manon is absolutely much worse.
Yeah like take Gohan from DBFZ for example when it comes to gameplay difference when he has no levels vs when he has level 1, 3, or 7. He goes from a decently mediocre character to an absolute monster. Manon needs to feel like a force to be reckoned with once her stacks are built
I remember Justin Wong doing well with her at first, and then I was heartbroken when he figured out she was actually bad.
I agree 1000% as someone who mains manon that projectile spin is USELESS
Next video SHOULD be the Eddy Gordo guide! Give me the strength to get it out in time lol. Some people asked for a Zangief video too and maybe, but we will let it breathe a bit first if we do it. Very telling though, Lily, Honda, Manon, Gief... all grab characters, all bad. There's a agenda at play here, season 2 GRAPPLERS RISE UP
I legit forgot about Eddy Gordo in the context of you making a guide for him
Wait, is Honda a grab character?
I don't play Tekken so no genkidama energy from me for Eddy Guerrero
Honestly I stand by the idea that there’s one Gief change that would solve a ton of his issues: being back the old functionality of Atomic Suplex.
I like Manon but she feels like Zangief with extra steps
if you looking to get your grab on theres basically zero reason to pick manon over gief. Although more to the point if you are looking to play street fighter 6 there's basically zero reason to pick manon over ___INSERT CHARACTER HERE____
@@rooflemonger My reason for picking Manon over Gief is that I absolutely hate doing 360 inputs :(
And less damage.
Well, yeah. She's a ballet-dancer.
@jonathancadle1261 if it helps sf6 inputs are very forgiving you don't need the full 360. If you end with any version of up (up backward or forward up) it'll give you the full 360.
Giving a little bit more time to cancel lvl 3 from hitgrab would be so good. Sometimes, because the timing is strict, I end up cancelling the hitgrab because I hit the button too early and then she just spins. I lose afterwards
Just press a different punch button, it only cancels the hitgrab if you press the same punch you used for the spin. I always use level 3 with HP because its not how I connect with hitgrab.
well the timing is as much as a issue if you know that the qcf from the hit grab counts as the first qfc for your super
@@TrueDemonDragon Yes, but the hitgrab has such a long start, you can do two quarter circles during the animation quite easily. What I do is qcf MP qcf HP dcf HP and I get it everytime no problem. I used to cancel the spin every once in a while, until I realized using any other punch other then the spin will not cancel the hitgrab from coming out. While the first qcf can count, there is nothing stopping you from doing two during the animation.
@@sean6253 Ooh that's a good tip, thanks
Manon is the reason I picked up SFVI, which is the first fighting game I've ever put serious time into. I love that I can build up a resource that carries between rounds so I feel like I was successful even if I lose a round. It's frustrating though that it feels like I can do more damage with Zangief for less effort when compared to Manon. Manon just doesn't get the same reward for getting in that Gief does.
The fact that you can be jabbed out of command grab is what really ruins Manon. you can't space it like Gief's SPD.
What does gief get for getting in besides returned to neutral? At least when she grabs you you get a medal and becomes more dangerous. All her aa are better than geifs. Her over heads are better than geifs. I. Think she’s better than geif.
@@ksfallenangel5770gief can get fucking thrown outta ex spd tho so what are we really talking about here.
I also started with Manon and enjoy her. I do not think I would enjoy Zangief tho
@@sidneydykes5032 It's the fact that manon grab movers her forward during the start up. this sounds good on paper but her normal grabs have woefully small range. and her OD does go far but again, can be hit while moving forward. Gief just has a great grab hitbox to begin with. if you space it they can whiff moves against you and still be in light SPD range. Manon grab because it advances forward can be jabbed out by people who mash jab against manon
People screaming for her to be nerfed on release is the reason I think the majority of the FGC has no idea what actually makes a character good or bad
going by the comments I usually get in these style of videos its exactly that. Even right now in the comments you will find people saying manon doesn't need buffs/shes good/etc
Man I'm struggling vs this character any advice? Her grabs are so annoying. It beats my attacks and you can't grab counter them. Plus the damage output is broken
Let's be honest, only french judo lazors can save her
He didn't rule out Ballet lasers though
Those are excellent points.
Unlike Lily and Honda who's flaws are on the design that they have nothing to do, Manon's kit have the potential to work together so well, it just doesn't have the frame data to support it.
Like Sin on launch, which they fixed by changing the numbers a bit.
Her anti fireball move needs to be anti fireball lol, she needs counter hit jab to link into something worth a darn, her damage is super low without fully medal command grab. Her footsies is bad because she's negative on everything.
Manon is super dependent on drive usage and yet her drive rush is so bad, she gets punished for getting punished. I still enjoy her gameplay the most but I'll not be going back to SF6 until she gets substantial buffs, it's pretty funny that her buff in the previous patch was literally a bug fix to her level 2 lol
Perfect parry to command grab is the only thing I do for round 1 so I have a fighting chance with her in round 2 and 3
I'm an utter neophyte to fighting games, but I picked up SF6 in December and clicked with Manon pretty quickly (your video going through the roster is what put her on my radar!). I've only been playing online for a month so I can't tell how much of the difficulty I'm having with her in the ranked queue is because I'm new and/or bad and how much is because she's under-tuned. That said I still enjoy playing her, so I'm hoping we do see some buffs when the big patch hits.
As a diamond Manon you can get legend with her it's just you work three times as hard as everyone else.
You're working harder than everyone else basically. Keep it up if you really like her, at least until s2 start, to see if there is any buff.
When you're new to intermediate, you the player are always a bigger impediment than your character pick
@@AdamJorgenseni mean its like that all the way till high level tournament play really
@@EXFrost so I hear, yeah. It's why I don't fuss too much about tier lists, since in my case the problem is always between the keyboard and the chair XD
Good video as always, and you've perfectly summed up everything wrong with her.
Manon is my first grappler character due to her design (I usually play set-play characters), and I was so disappointed when I picked her up.
What kind of grappler character has zero ways to enforce strike-throw, on top of every special move being -15 on block (or worse)?
You're forced to poke with normals with no safe-on-block buffers, and then you're somehow expected to enforce strike-throw with those minus-on-block normals.
Then you'd think she'd have a good drive-rush to compensate and give her a source of plus frames, but it goes nowhere. Yeah, I dunno.
I love Manon, she's my main after Marisa, i would love some buffs for my favorite french🏅
This is my first Street Fighter and Manon is my main. There's so much I like about her, but imo her biggest problem is that her neutral does paltry damage and her frame data is overall pitiful.
Literally the only character in the game without a normal or special that's plus-on-block. This means you must use DR to enforce safe pressure, which automatically puts her at a big disadvantage compared to the rest of the roster. She's very meter-hungry.
I don't really want crazy oki vacuums either. I'd prefer to see her damage output redistributed if necessary where her whiff punish combos do more damage and her level 4 and 5 command grabs slightly less. She has some very good buttons and in general is great at keeping opponents caged in the corner between her long pokes and her good anti-airs.
I'm glad they've improved her level 2 super but would also like her level 1 to have slightly faster startup so it's a viable reversal. I'd also like for her anti-fireball tool to work as advertised. That being said, she also benefits more from perfect parries than most of the roster so I really like that aspect of the character. You need to lab perfect parries for cross-ups and for any annoying/spammable specials your opponent might throw out, but in most cases your reward is a medal which is great.
Manon imo just needs a few tweaks to make her a more well rounded character. In general I think the core concept of "judo ballerina" is great and the developers executed it well, but between needing to use DR for safe buttons and having the worst DR in the game, she's not exactly playing the same game everyone else is. Here's hoping she gets the love she deserves in Season 2, but either way she's my main for the forseeable future because there's just so much I like about her.
Agreed about the meter-hungry. The amount of damage you get to her very short and little combo (and no oki) pails in comparison with other characters with the same meter usages
As manon main exclusively day1, i'm so 100% agree the changes. Still I 'm not hoping crazy buff but i just want her something that hard to be punished. Right now everything just too easy to be punished. I need play like very very few mistake if I want to win
I enjoy using Manon more than my other characters. I hope she gets buffed in all the right places.
Manon was the character I was most excited to play before the game launched, so she was my day one main. First two months were fun, but I could feel early on I was hitting a wall with this character. If she gets the buffs she needs I will happily play her again!
Or Capcom can give her a gun, knife, sword and teleport
she really needs an anti air grab. level like zangief or a specific special
its insane that she doesnt. like fucking jp has an anti air grab. why?
Agree 100% give her fallen sky
Really wish recent games would let grapplers get more of a spot light don’t know many games that do that
KOFXV and Tekken the Grapplers are in very good spot.
Was bout to say king from Tekken, kof has amazing grapplers, hell virtual fighter wolf is a beast so.... There is some games just very rare.
Uni2 w
Potemkin in strive can be a powerhouse in the right hands, arcsys really nailed him i think
Before i picked up Chun-Li, Manon and Lily were my mains. I sure know how to pick 'em. Not that it matters at my level.
I'm in the same boat but in reverse. Started out with Chun, was doing well, then moved onto Lily and Manon as my mains now.
All the options I had with Chun really make me feel how limited Lily and Manon are. Yet I've been sticking with them anyway. Getting my ass kicked left and right. Maybe a testament to Capcom character design or maybe I just like playing games on hard mode 🤷
Man seeing this vid and remembering how everyone was thinking Manon was S tier in like, the first week-week and a half of the game's lifecycle really reminds you that things can change a lot after an initial opinion
Damn, all the buff you mentioned are so good! Right on point quality of life change while not breaking the game or make her another Juri or Luke.
I want her spin to turn the projectile's back at the person throwing them. I really think that was what the move was meant to do but got turned away from it before release in the same way AKI's Fireball > Whip got the crumple removed but still has the insanely punishable framedata on block. It goes with the Judo theme of using your opponent's force against them and makes sense why on read you'd be able to jump on her. I want that and that's the only change she would need.
I love Manon's visual design and theme but she feels too limited. In addition to the changes you mentioned, I think it would be fun if spinning a projectile would grant a medal. Might be too much but hey, it's more interesting than just using parry like everyone else.
Also I feel heer spin kick on hit should pop-up the character a touch higher so that her Drive rush combos are not as difficult to do.
Characters who have to do chores should be much more heavily rewarded for completing them
It's incredibly obvious that Manon was conceived and built around the Medal building mechanic and its damage.
Everything else is setup to essentially NERF her because the team felt her gimmick was going to be incredibly strong. She is infested with -1 moves, even things that would reasonable to be neutral or +1.
Manon main here ,P5 struggling to get to D rank. My heart bled at every phrase in the intro, and that's because it's all TRUE 😢. Got invested in the character when they first presented her along with Marisa and still have a lot of fun. Sadly, too little time to go with another main so I'll stick to her and hope for buffs. Thanks for the video!
make stand HK punish counter blocking opponents? is this anything I’m just spitballin here
Amazing video, it's sad to see such a cool character struggle so much. Will you do a save Kimberly or save Jamie video?
if people keep watching these ill keep making em i guess lol. Although theres not many left on the struggle character market
I think everyone else is pretty functional. Jamie and Kim are just a lil undertuned. But they do what their archetypes set out to do and itd all just be quality of life changes really
In regards to the spin: I wouldn't mind if the duration is more or less the same, but the projectile invincibility for the held version should last for 95% of the move.
After all, the held version has no other use than advancing through projectiles. If the recovery gets reduced as proposed in the video it'd lead to goofy situations where she cancels her normals on block and you have to be really quick to register which version it is and potentially leads to stealing turns because you're afraid of the frametrap grab.
Hey.... thats not a bad idea
Her god awful defense is the only reason I learned how to perfect parry.
I do not know if anyone else commented it but you dont have to spend drive after down back lk to enforce strike throw mixup. You can time her l command grab as a meaty just by walking a bit
Manon player here: 3HK is supposed to be another anti air that side swaps and it just happens to suck, better start up would do wonders for it
2 minutes into the video and literally every flaw with this character I been talking about is being validated. I feel so seen lol
I floundered between Manon... then Lily.... then AKI.
It was painful LOL
Saving AKI next? Or at least a video going over bottom half of the cast for some buff suggestions?
We got an aki down player lol
Aki's fine. Buff heavy whip and she's good. Maybe mess around with her serpent slide reversal thing. But other than that she's fine, very underated character
Why is manon even a ballet dancer if she can't ever spin during a match? That's supposed to be her thing.
When you were talking about Manon's anti-fireball hitgrab, I was thinking something as simple as giving the cancel recovery frames projectile-invulnerability would make it workable for what it's supposed to serve. It's not like you can't whiff-punish it with a normal anyway. Now that you mentioned decreasing its recovery frames, that would be a fun buff for the fact it'd give her more combo potential.
Huh, they must have been really afraid of making her good during development.
Loved the suggestions, I have 2 more options:
- have her medals scale better in combos. Like, fully scaled lvl 5 grab deals AT LEAST 50% damage;
- make her dash slightly faster.
I tried Manon on launch and while I thought she was more fun than gief she really is a terrible character. Super low mixup potential and absolutely no way to enforce throw other than "f*ck it we ball" throwing out grabs randomly.
No plus frames on a grappler is wild and her frame traps aren't even threatening enough to get you to stop mashing anyways
Easier Medal acquisition using moves outside of her throws. The spin move for example, could get get a medal if successfully punishing the opponent after its use with the follow up kick. With Judo being the theme of her character a medal for countering a throw successfully. As you stated about the level 5 throw being overly scary, if the damage was reduced by 5-10%, but the medals reduced to 3 (with 1st medal at level 2, 2nd medal between 3-4, and 3rd medal at the reduced damage).
My girl has it so bad in this game, but I still love her. Waiting for her glow up!
I've been Master with Manon since December, so I feel like I have a pretty good feel for what fixes she needs.
First off, I don't think she necessarily needs new tricks or drastic buffs. Just making Renverse (her spin/hit grab) actually useful to get through projectiles would be huge. I think making one or two more of her normals special/super (not necessarily DR) cancelllable or +OB would be nice.
The problem with Manon is that her non-grab damage is pitiful, and her command grabs are easily countered. The risk/reward is rarely worth it for Manon but given her toolkit, she MUST take risks. The vast majority of the roster gets better damage for whole helluva lot less work.
The other big issue is her defense. Like... holy hell am I just praying whenever I'm in the corner. She has no DP so wakeup super is the only thing close to that. But thats such a risky/obvious thing to bait out. I feel like either a universal (or character specific) buff to drive reversal could really help Manon here.
A big common issue that ties everything together that I've talked about so far is how drive gauge dependent she is. Everyone seems to get oki or side switch or corner carry or big damage with very little drive usage. Manon has to use way more gauge but she gets less out of it than a lot of the roster.
Putting it all together then, Manon is a low damage character that is susceptible to burnout/drive impact and whose medal gimmick is very easy to counter. That often forces her to play neutral and have to win so many more interactions in a game where people can just braindead cruise control themselves into a W with a Dee Jay drive rush or any number of cMK into a DR combo.
My Manon buffs:
- Make Renverse actually good at dodging projectiles
- Give her an overall damage boost which I might accept in exchange for a slight damage nerf to her grabs
- Make her cMP have a slightly faster startup (1F faster?)
- Make cMK special (not DR) cancellable
- Buff drive reversal
- My craziest buff request: Make OD command grab invulnerable to everything (but at the cost of a medal?)
Yeah my biggest issue is that you just end up having to take so many risks. Its hard to get a reliable game going, like you can with other characters.
Question for you. Before I dropped the game because the buffs a QoL changes were trash in that patch I was practicing with s.MK as a punish to opponent’s c.MK which works but realized the b.MK target makes it difficult to get back to N to do so since you’re also forced to not block in that moment to do s.MK. What’s been your experience with this or do you not even bother.
@votes4cows Yeah. It ends up being a very volatile time playing Manon. On a really good day, I've gotten up to 1600 MR. On a very bad day, I've gotten as low as 1300. Can get exhausting often. I can string together quite a number of wins when I get super aggro and gimmicky (by going all in on offense), but it ends up making me feel bored and disgusted with myself lol.
@bqing87 You might get different answers from other Manon players, but I think I rarely use sMK. I think I use it sometimes off a drive rush on their wakeup right into the OD overhead. As for the bMK target combo, I actually use it quite often. Use it for block strings or if they don't block the overhead, I go into a combo. If I've conditioned them to block, then I'll sneak in a command grab by only doing the first hit of the target combo.
As for punishing opposing cMK, I really make sure to space them out, keep them out with Manon's cMK, and if they whiff a button, I'll punish with Manon's sHK.
@@thehobojarpenokay. Yeah I was curious because I hadn’t seen too many manon’s trying to wif punish with s.MK which is probably due to what I mentioned above but not really using it at all makes sense outside of combos.
Cool to hear your thoughts about buffing her.
I remember how super hyped I was about her before release.
I even planned on maining her.
But in the end she wasn't fun to use. Mostly because what she can do is so strict.
Cancel the wrong move into a special and she is like a million minus, because your opponent can just hold back to block that nombo.
My Manon buff idea: at 0-4 medals, SA3/CA has its current frame data. At exactly 5 medals, the grab is active frame 0 like Zangief's and it can no longer be jumped after the flash.
Is this balanced? I don't really know, but I think it would be funny.
I really hope you will do the same type of video with Zangief. As a Gief player since street 2 i really would like to see some help for Gief. Not to much but he needs it. Then as a French and a grappler player i was rzally enjoy to see Manon and wanted to play her and Gief. But she needs help too . Even more than Gief .
it's crazy stupid how crapcom will design and release a really cool and popular character and then make them suck ingame so nobody wants to play em....like wtf is the point?! also tbf crapcom DOESN'T know how to design grapplers. they always make them slow and hard to do anything with them meanwhile you look at snk and goro (maybe he's op) but clark shermie etc are fun to play with useful normals and ways to make you constantly guess and just a little bit scary to face off against. that's what grapplers should be.
This was very comforting after a ranked session where I didn't move at all
Kudos on another great 'rescue a character' video! I've found your character analysis and recommendations some of the best out there. Very thoughtful and reasonable. Hope Capcom is listening.
Are you planning on addressing characters who may need to be nerfed?
I'd be interested in what you would suggest.
character nerfs is more boring honestly. Its all the characters youd think, and they only need the edge taken off them, not giant nerfs
@@rooflemonger ok, thanks for responding man, I enjoy your work!
Her buttons could use some work because the hurtboxes on them are weirdly big compared to everyone else, so just pull those back and down a few pixels. Also, her stand HK should have a bigger hit box so if she spaces it right, it should anti-air(a lot of other characters get this anyway). Her qcb+HK overhead should have some lower body invincibility since she's jumping slightly; people can do stand button, DI, or just punish it on block already anyway. Renverse should just have more projectile invincibility overall. Changes like these won't bring her up in the tiers, but she'd have some more breathing room.
Totally agree about those projectile invincible charges. Make it so they will be afraid to throw the fireball at all against her. Make it good.
As for a crazy idea, would it be possible to give her a true reversal? Hit her and get thrown?
I think kick from spin should be able to be activated later. There's times where I get a projectile dodge correctly but can't do nothing afterwards. The spin kick should be very rewarding if done correctly.
I think one more quality of life needed is making 2HP HP more consistent. If it hits early the 2nd one whiffs often. Also I think making 3HK more useful somehow. Maybe make it able to combo into to have more screen control ability. Like DR 2MP link 3HK
I just gave up on Sf6 and accepted the fact that Capcom hate grapplers.
Raw punish counter command grab could give 2 medals instead of 1. Will incentivize people to block and help give more opportunities for grabs. I love Manon because her oki is pretty strong, especially mentally. I'd like to lean into that a bit.
I say lean into her hit grab more and make her a stance character. Give her a plus mid with a bit of pushback, an overhead that knocks down for oki, and a low that’s special cancelable and links on counter hit but is super unsafe on block
Manon was my day 1 pick and I still only want to play Manon. It is a struggle, the other characters have so much to do and so many ways to disrupt my gameplan and I feel like Manon just gets hit by a truck.
Spin grab should be able to combo from special cancel normals but it doesn't raise the metals to balance it out.
Grapplers rise up! I'm hoping for a Hugo or Alex in season 2 (or even a Makoto?) and I don't want them to suffer the curse of ye grappler
I agree with all of these. Some of the QoL changes like making Lvl 3 give out medal won't even suddenly make her OP, but it's just to fix something that often feels more like the game is screwing with you. You are already spending 3 bars, why are you getting extra penalized on doing a super lol. It's annoying because out of the new characters I like Manon's concept and design the most (and I don't even usually like grapplers) but playing with her just feels like a constant upstream battle. Yes, you could win if you could significantly outplay your opponent but that's true for anything.
I agree with giving her a +1 normal so she has an actual strike throw game without drive rush.
Idea - Her level 1 super needs to go throw projectiles to help her with zoners. You covered that with her spin and I also wonder why its so bad.
She needs a wake up option to get people off her since command grab wont work on wake up like other grapplers.
What if you made it so, once you get a medal it changes the frame data, like one frame quicker for 2 and 3 medal and then 2 frames quicker for 4 and 5 to make the target combo into command grab work (nerf the damage a little bit to adjust it because you could get it more but that being the trade off)
I wouldn't mind if they nerfed her 5 medal command grab in exchange for some kind of blockstring or something. In addition to the changes mentioned in your video I'd also like here ex hitgrab to be lower body strike invincible (semi- reversal) and perhaps instead of insta death her command move insta stuns. whatever happens I hope they give her some sauce/gameplan by the time season 2 rolls around.
It'd be a huge change, but why not have an anti-projectile spin move spin the projectile around and throw it back on the initiator? It immediately solves two problems. Firstly you won't get a situation where the projectile is too slow and hits you anyway since this effect would already have taken place so it'll already be "your" projectile by the time it would've lag-hit you, and secondly it instantly makes the anti-projectile game a particular strong suit since "your" new projectile will cancel out even the next projectile. So it's not just doing what parry could already achieve, but going beyond that and doing far more. There's no problem in this resulting in infinite mirror-match tennis loops since Manon doesn't have her own projectile to launch in the first place, and as for plonking the move on a custom character in world tour mode, that's already way beyond janky unbalance and we all love it regardless so it doesn't really matter.
But perhaps the very best thing about this change would be that it would look damn awesome and fitting! You'd probably have to give the returned projectile a few "harmless frames" in order to avoid it looking weird if both players are super close to each other (as in, visually enough time to "go around" her body and actually get flung back)... so those could whiff (but still be successfully dodged). But it'd definitely boost the main anti-projectile situation of being fired at full-screen, anyway.
Making standing medium kick +1 on block would indeed go a long way. And yes, the spin move deserves a complete overhaul-she is a ballerina after all! I'm not sure if this would be game-breaking, but I would take st. MK registering as a "standing low" over cr. MK becoming DR cancelable.
if st mk becomes standing low then it just basically the same as cr.mk drive rush for the other chars (just a worse version). +1 on block gives it more identity than just doing what luke and juri do but worse
@@rooflemonger Good point. I really would like if I could cancel cr.MK into DI, so you're right.
I honestly can't believe she was made the way she was. Like I played her and got her to Platinum, but like I only won as far as I did cause people don't know how to fight her. Having no defense is so dumb.
Potemkin has Back Megafist and Stand P, Zangief has plus on block normals that reach decently far, Ladiva has insane special moves. They don't fully solve their problems, but they are things that can contest with their opponents and put fear into them. Manon has nothing for someone to be scared of. She quite literally is a gimmick grappler, which is the worst type of character.
I'm not asking for a DP or anything, just make one of her existing moves good on defense. Like maybe EX Command Grab has upper body invincibility. Or her Level 1 and 2 not be terrible lol
I love that thumbnail
why does zangief seem to be your least favorite grappler? just curious
Making lvl 1 fireball invincible is too much? I will spam the hell out of this since it does actually make a ton of sense, thanks for taking the time to deliver this ❤
iirc every single level 1 in the game is only strike and throw invuln at best. I assume it's by design to make chip damage more threatening when you're in burnout.
the problem is since the beta all level 1's had fireball invuln removed. I think its actually something she should have, but its very apparently something they do not want
Seriously, everyone should have a reversal. This game is too aggressive
@@elim9054which is one of the dumbest decisions in the game’s balance. Not only does this take away things characters could do in other games but the design of her level one makes absolutely no sense. Why does she slide so far if a) she can’t pass fireballs, b) isn’t invincible the whole way through or c) doesn’t recover fast enough to be used as an escape tool. Throw in d) the hitbox is so wonky it doesn’t always connect.
Well where is the ermac reaction Video? Seems about tome to upload it, doesn‘t it?
My favorite Manon comparison is comparing her to Ken.
Ken H dragonlash sails over lows, combos on counter hit, and is plus on block.
Manon H degage CAN sail over lows if you are psychic, combos on counter hit, and is -9 on block...can it at least sail over lows sooner and be more effective there? I'm taking a huge risk for using it! Could then be used as a shimmy.
These of have been intresting to watch. Hope it does well enough that it becomes a staple
This is the best video I've seen. I REALLY hope Capcom is paying attention, because what they did to Manon is absolutely insane. I don't think they were thinking when they made her. I know French people are pissed she isn't good. Victor is good in Tekken 8! I love her design, but her ability vs her story doesn't match up at all.
Would raw level 3 getting 2 medals be too much for her?
I wonder if they will add Kolin type counters to Manon
Rooflemonger did not believe me when I said this character would suck pre release. I said her neutral was big commit and of course anti air is sus.
Manon main here.
My strategy has always been keep enemy at poking distance with her kicks or keep them guessing on which Dégagé was coming (high or low) and tossing in her throws while using her anti-air attacks to keep them in check, basically snipe and throw blender. It worked great for me but all her anti-air attack properties made me miss the enemy so many times they'd get a jump in anyway.
What? Her anti-airs are one of the only strengths she has.
@@curtisedmonds9933 they should be but their hitboxes and timing are a bit wonky.
These are some nuanced and really well thought out changes, though I think the one thing I disagree on which button should be plus, I think changing that mK is perhaps too drastic, MP or LP would make better candidates I think. I do see your point on it being a dead button though. Perhaps bHP would be best ala Headbutt, but making what should just generally be a poke button plus would likely set twitter on fire.
You think plus 1 on medium kick is too much but plus 1 on medium punch is ok?
That would be the single greatest medium in the game.
Rooflemonger has this correct.
I feel like mettle should have other bonuses besides the throw damaged if they’re going to make her require so much setup for meaningful damage she really should be a snowball character that’s hybrid grappler and focus on that element of her kit instead since grapplers in general just struggle in this game
I just go for her OD combos and have the grappler side "just in case". I also think her SA3 needs a buff, most of the times I just do her SA2 instead.-
Make her HP target combo pull in more or make her jab have more range so after her target combo she has the threat of crlk stlp qcblk or throw
It’s been very long time since I’ve played her but if I remember correctly her medium kick button both crouch and stand were not special cancelable and you could get easily impacted for trying to use them at all…maybe just fix that. Seemed kinda overkill.
I feel like there are some other things I'd like to see them give Manon (like a st.HK that doesn't have 15 frames of startup while being minus 2 ON HIT). For example I hope they change hitgrab so doing hitgrab>super actually benefits from medal levels. Currently her level 3 feels disconnected from her kit because it doesn't benefit from medals and you usually give up a medal to land it. They could move some of the damage gained from medals to the start of the hitgrab to make level 3 feel less disconnected from the rest of her kit.
And while we are on the hitgrab, why is medium hitgrab only 50 damage more than light? It feels like they just couldn't think of a way to create a distinction between the two so they made it basically the same move.
I do disagree with making st.MK her plus button due to it's range and cancelability. I'd much rather have them make b.HP plus.
I'm gonna keep saying it until the heavens hear me, drive rush should've had a standard speed and distance covered from the start of the game. This will buff weak characters who have bad drive rushes and bring in line characters who have outstanding drive rushes. Standardized drive rush brings everyone to a more or less equal scale (barring characters gameplans. Gief will probably get more out of drive rush than JP) and moves can be finetuned after that
Let spin cancel into spin once. Rekka hit grabs! Lol. Unironically sounds super fun to me xD
As a platinum 5 Manon I am out here fighting for my life 😂
She needs to work on her Sumo. Judo < Sumo
As a Lili main in Tekken 8, I approve.