Yeah, I always found it weird that you can jump back and punish command grabs. Lvl 3? Sure. but I totally agree that you should only punish a regular command grab with neutral jumps. Backjumping a command grab should be a win for the grappler, the defender taked the safest option
Watching high level Gief play is funny because they just ignore half his toolkit since those are so useless for the most part. But honestly a bigger issue with him (and the other grapplers) is the lack of actual rewards for landing things, some random cr mk into rush can give you much more than what a SPD offers with a fraction of the risk. Also i fucking hate his jp down hp, the body splash move. That thing whiffs so much even when the other guy is standing still, i dont understand how this move even works since it feels like a 50/50 if it will hit or not, even on a correct read.
The thing I find with the splash is it often looks like it is going to cross up and doesn't or vice versa. So in the heat of the moment rather than following with headbutt I get and uncharged stand HP and ruin the follow up combo/pressure.
The splash is a huge problem. I dont know if it is a problem with the active frames or the hitbox or both, but the move is truly awful. You can get punished for whiffing it too.
my first grappler was slayer in xrd. he's not a grappler but i sure did love doing bite setups and using that command grab for everything it had going for it. my first *real* grappler was DNFD's grappler years later and that character put a lot of ideas in my head that made me think 'ah is this what the archetype is? this is fine, this is worth the effort.' maybe some of those ideas were wrong and maybe some are still wrong to this day... but DNFD grappler had all of the things that capcom is terrified would make zangief broken. looping setplay off of command grabs, safejumps off command grabs and combos, and things to bully his way in if given the chance. he was considered a garbage character, but he felt great! I loved DNFD for a long time because the resident grappler was just so satisfying with fun combos to boot! I get that DNFD is an extremely different game from street fighter, but the point is the character felt good in the context of the game despite being 'the worst' in many peoples' eyes. Fast forward a few years and I get on street fighter. from anime to streets. I struggled. jumping too much, getting blown up for not respecting when my turn was over, pressing buttons for no reason... classic anime player L's. but then I improved. I learned about this game and when to pump the brakes and as I understood more, zangief started to feel ... terrible. At first I thought it was just because I'm bad or that the 'anime brain rot is terminal' - but then I tried Ryu. Felt great! Even though he was considered 'meh' to bad at the time he felt good to play and I learned a lot from my time with him. Zangief did not and does not feel good outside of when I hit the slots and grab someone four times in a row. his light confirms are annoying, his mediums are SO VERY risky to just throw out and give an auto combo at best, his heavies are ... good, I think? you can't drc them into a combo but in a vacuum they do just fine I guess. But his specials are an absolute disaster. Lariat and the grabs are the only specials worth using. And his supers... oh god... I made it to masters by the skin of my teeth when his level 2 was safe on block. I abused a bug and frankly I still don't feel bad about that. It shouldn't be safe on block but it also shouldn't be so slow that it loses to meaty lights. its 2 entire meter. let it be a reversal. his level 1 being what it is is fine now that it works better, I guess, but it's still not good either. his level 3 is the only thing in his whole kit that will consistently win matches and that's only because it's unreactable and does upwards of 60%!! and on top of all that. the worst part of it all that made me just quit the game for a while... his only special for combos is somewhere in the ballpark of -40 on block. EXdps have that level of punishable and they're invincible on startup. Lariat can't even anti air unless its so predictable that you heard about it from the local weatherman that morning. so if you drop a combo it's not 'oopsie i lose some damage' it's more like 'oopsie they get a free DI punish into their favorite corner carry combo where i get to scream and cry and wail because gief has nothing on defense besides system mechanics' you have to work so much harder for something as basic as a light confirm where other characters can mindlessly jabjab-dp and at worst they're minus 20 give or take. which is *bad* but it's not 'free DI on reaction' levels of bad. That's it. that's my rant... sorry I made your video the dump for it. but thank you for reading and especially thank you for all the tech videos you've given us.
I'd never really tried a grappler seriously. Leading up to SF6 release Idol Showdown came out and I ended up maining Coco who was at the time considered really bad and half finished even but even she had stuff that Zangief can only dream of like consistent combos into hkd, great buttons, a dash, looping pressure on her command grab, a functional anti air, etc she was a ton of fun even though she was considered bottom 1 in that version, I felt like I'd cracked the code and was excited to try more grapplers, especially since SF6 had 2 new ones who looked pretty exciting Considering how bad she was considered I thought going into Sf6 things would only be better there but man Zangief is not it, he feels so bad to play, you can feel the fear Capcom had of him being even slightly good I did end up playing Lily a lot so I guess I got a sort of grappler, but I feel like she's only not awful cause she doesn't really care about her SPD since she has an actual functioning kit outside it lol
"Zangief did not and does not feel good outside of when I hit the slots and grab someone four times in a row." This sorta' sums up SF grapplers, sadly - And it's unlikely to ever change. I've been playing fighting games since SF2, and games with a more freeform design (like anime fighters) have an easier time incorporating grapplers due to how wild the system mechanics can get, but SF just isn't built that way. I'd assume that Gief *has* to be unsatisfying outside of his SPD shenanigans because if he weren't, the playerbase would HATE him. I know I would. If he had decent strings or a vastly improved combo game, you'd have more reason to block his approaches and thus more reason to eat 30% on a bad guess from a command grab that is as fast as every other character's regular throw; Not to mention his 10% additional HP. His Oki isn't the best, but it's not like he's unable to get it, and some of his better tools (Headbutt, Heavy Punch) can lead to respectable damage on their own and get you in. He had simpler looping setplay in some of the older titles, which wasn't particularly fun to fight against nor did it require much skill, and in exchange the rest of his kit was even worse if you could believe it. He was bad in 4, absolutely terrible in 5, even in the final version of the game... If he's too good at doing the thing he does best, he's boring to fight. If the rest of his stuff is made better, the grabs have to be weakened to compensate, which defeats the purpose of picking a grappler. It feels mean to say it, but it seems Grappler mains just have to deal with it, much like Ninja mains have to deal with doing low damage, or Zoner mains dealing with having awful up-close defense. Then again, I'm an Aki main, my command grab is 34 frames, what do I know, lol
@@LastLune I am well aware people would get mad if a grappler was good. But that's the *point*. At least that's how I play them. You put the fear of GOD in them with your command grab so they mash stupidly and jump carelessly then you RAM THEM with your combos because they just aren't blocking. The appeal of grapplers is the idea of getting in someone's head and making them regret every defensive decision they make. At least to me that's the appeal. To frustrate and exasperate. To subtract hope and add pain. Zangief should have remained evil because on god I swear most grappler players are just villains who haven't found their nemesis yet. The upsides (in theory, I guess?) should be unfair offense but trash tier defense. if gief had the defense he has now but would run a train on you and make you panic when it was his turn then I wouldn't be upset. I'd be sitting in the corner blocking and waiting for someone to tie that noose for me. Right now his defense is bad and his offense is gimmicks. Aki has troubles too, of this I've seen first hand. I respect the struggle of anyone playing her. but lets be real, dawg, her command grab isn't the centerpiece of her kit lol. ... even though my dog-ass has been hit by it significantly more than once.
@@Aeby2886 seeing this is just making me want to go back to and stay in anime purely because the grappler archetype is allowed to function. just don't look at potemkin in the recent guilty gears. don't worry about that. we don't talk about him.
@@Unserioussam328 I wouldn't call any of that specific to grapplers, though. The amount of times someone in the corner will just focus on blocking the insane Aki mix-ups and forget that I even have a command grab is honestly hilarious. Zoners do it too by baiting people into taking unnecessary risks by making it seem like the fireball war will be going on forever. Amusingly, I think I'd call Gief's offense "Unfair", it's just not very good. I'd also not want to encourage the devs to make something purposefully frustrating. No judgment on how you play the game and enjoy yourself or anything, but if your goal in the game is to frustrate your opponent, then honestly you can go play with someone else, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Frustration should come from within, and that's sorta' how it is with fighting Gief currently. This isn't to say he doesn't need buffs, though he appears to be getting those. Fun fact though, Zangief has never actually been evil - At least not in the games. The movie made him a villainous henchman, and he's in that Wreck-It Raplh scene, but he's literally just some thicc Russian guy. (Hot take, Aki is pretty powerful and is getting too many buffs in the next patch, lol)
The big problem with Gief is his consistancy and the lack of tool in some situation. You can't have a character that have move who seems to do something and do it 50% of the time without knowing why it's not working correctly this time. Anti air lariat is a great exemple. Then some weakness of Gief like projectile in the game are really strong in street fighter 6 and even if there the parry it's not enough and Gief has no real tool against that. So you are a grappler with no projectile who needs as a grappler to get close but your tool to get in are the same as any other charcter in the game. Then most of his toolkit are useless no one even the pro use it.
The most annoying part is that it completely feels like all characters do whatever they want and I have to work real hard for my wins. for example getting stuck in the corner and knocked down is a really difficult situation, mostly because easy meaties.
The thing I want to complain is stats of all characters, include dash frame, dash distance and walk speed. Chun Li, Kimberly have fucking faster back speed than Gief's forward speed, make the matchup a zoning nightmare, some characters could just do walk back and side switch combo only the whole game, while Gief will never catch them.
You are so right men!!!! Personnaly i think that the character was one of the last to be presented and i think that they did not have the time to finish him really or to test him correctly because there's just too much nonsense in this character.
You are right about the game being a oki festival for everyone but Gief. 50/50 oki after SPD would not break Gief but raise him to the rest of the cast level as a whiffed SPD is still equal to death.
I feel like Gief needs at least one more decent cancelable poke too. Just because so may of his best longer range pokes get stuffed by DI for being so slow. Not saying I want Gief drive rush cancelling off of cr MK like he's Luke or Ken but something that helps you challenge in neutral that isn't a light. Maybe make 2nd hit of Chop Target combo cancel? Pretty sure that would still be fast enough to counter DI and you could only then combo extend on a counter hit. Would that be too good? Maybe I'm wrong.
There are really cool ideas running around the community for things that could help him without going for the 2mk cancel route. For example, 5mk being super cancelable or faking 5hp. They can make the character special without falling for the shoto balancing they have atm. The lack of creativity hurts.
My theory is that his condition in Street Fighter 6 has a lot to do with how Capcom treated him in Street Fighter 5. In the latter seasons, I would go on every one's twitch channel that will listen about how they were steadily destroying him. In the final build He is the only character that is not tournament viable out of almost 50 characters. Taking away throw invincibility on the EX SPD was so egregious that Zangief haters thought it was too much. In the end, even the commentators were calling him trash openly. I was really upset with that for almost 2 years. We still played him though, which may have been a sign to Capcom that we will take whatever version they gave us in Street Fighter 6
Well put, also the range on some of his moves like hellstab is just...bad. What makes me sad though is I know Capcom will not address most of the gripes.
I love eating a DI for using mp or mk on my opponent's wakeup. I love having a level two super that cannot punish shoto hp on wakeup I love having a level 1 super that totally goes right by the opponent because he jumped forward and not back. Zangief is great I guess. smh
you forgot a few things . I love half my jump in buttons whiffing for no reason I love having 0 reversals I love ex lariat trading with some jump ins or some times outright losing I love having useless buttons like df.hk or d.hp and of course tundra storm
we really need a decent mid attack that we can buffer drive rush into.....cr mp SUCKS horrible range.......we cant even play neutral properly since we eat DI if u fish for chops
Yeah, I always found it weird that you can jump back and punish command grabs. Lvl 3? Sure. but I totally agree that you should only punish a regular command grab with neutral jumps. Backjumping a command grab should be a win for the grappler, the defender taked the safest option
When I see them flying and Zangief is there, waiting...Something breaks inside of me. Probably, my heart.
Watching high level Gief play is funny because they just ignore half his toolkit since those are so useless for the most part.
But honestly a bigger issue with him (and the other grapplers) is the lack of actual rewards for landing things, some random cr mk into rush can give you much more than what a SPD offers with a fraction of the risk.
Also i fucking hate his jp down hp, the body splash move. That thing whiffs so much even when the other guy is standing still, i dont understand how this move even works since it feels like a 50/50 if it will hit or not, even on a correct read.
The thing I find with the splash is it often looks like it is going to cross up and doesn't or vice versa. So in the heat of the moment rather than following with headbutt I get and uncharged stand HP and ruin the follow up combo/pressure.
The lack of reward for the speed of his buttons is a major issue in sf6. He's very limiting.
The splash is a huge problem. I dont know if it is a problem with the active frames or the hitbox or both, but the move is truly awful. You can get punished for whiffing it too.
my first grappler was slayer in xrd. he's not a grappler but i sure did love doing bite setups and using that command grab for everything it had going for it.
my first *real* grappler was DNFD's grappler years later and that character put a lot of ideas in my head that made me think 'ah is this what the archetype is? this is fine, this is worth the effort.' maybe some of those ideas were wrong and maybe some are still wrong to this day...
but DNFD grappler had all of the things that capcom is terrified would make zangief broken. looping setplay off of command grabs, safejumps off command grabs and combos, and things to bully his way in if given the chance. he was considered a garbage character, but he felt great! I loved DNFD for a long time because the resident grappler was just so satisfying with fun combos to boot! I get that DNFD is an extremely different game from street fighter, but the point is the character felt good in the context of the game despite being 'the worst' in many peoples' eyes.
Fast forward a few years and I get on street fighter. from anime to streets. I struggled. jumping too much, getting blown up for not respecting when my turn was over, pressing buttons for no reason... classic anime player L's. but then I improved. I learned about this game and when to pump the brakes and as I understood more, zangief started to feel ... terrible. At first I thought it was just because I'm bad or that the 'anime brain rot is terminal' - but then I tried Ryu. Felt great! Even though he was considered 'meh' to bad at the time he felt good to play and I learned a lot from my time with him.
Zangief did not and does not feel good outside of when I hit the slots and grab someone four times in a row. his light confirms are annoying, his mediums are SO VERY risky to just throw out and give an auto combo at best, his heavies are ... good, I think? you can't drc them into a combo but in a vacuum they do just fine I guess. But his specials are an absolute disaster. Lariat and the grabs are the only specials worth using. And his supers... oh god... I made it to masters by the skin of my teeth when his level 2 was safe on block. I abused a bug and frankly I still don't feel bad about that. It shouldn't be safe on block but it also shouldn't be so slow that it loses to meaty lights. its 2 entire meter. let it be a reversal. his level 1 being what it is is fine now that it works better, I guess, but it's still not good either. his level 3 is the only thing in his whole kit that will consistently win matches and that's only because it's unreactable and does upwards of 60%!!
and on top of all that. the worst part of it all that made me just quit the game for a while... his only special for combos is somewhere in the ballpark of -40 on block. EXdps have that level of punishable and they're invincible on startup. Lariat can't even anti air unless its so predictable that you heard about it from the local weatherman that morning. so if you drop a combo it's not 'oopsie i lose some damage' it's more like 'oopsie they get a free DI punish into their favorite corner carry combo where i get to scream and cry and wail because gief has nothing on defense besides system mechanics'
you have to work so much harder for something as basic as a light confirm where other characters can mindlessly jabjab-dp and at worst they're minus 20 give or take. which is *bad* but it's not 'free DI on reaction' levels of bad.
That's it. that's my rant... sorry I made your video the dump for it. but thank you for reading and especially thank you for all the tech videos you've given us.
I'd never really tried a grappler seriously. Leading up to SF6 release Idol Showdown came out and I ended up maining Coco who was at the time considered really bad and half finished even but even she had stuff that Zangief can only dream of like consistent combos into hkd, great buttons, a dash, looping pressure on her command grab, a functional anti air, etc she was a ton of fun even though she was considered bottom 1 in that version, I felt like I'd cracked the code and was excited to try more grapplers, especially since SF6 had 2 new ones who looked pretty exciting
Considering how bad she was considered I thought going into Sf6 things would only be better there but man Zangief is not it, he feels so bad to play, you can feel the fear Capcom had of him being even slightly good
I did end up playing Lily a lot so I guess I got a sort of grappler, but I feel like she's only not awful cause she doesn't really care about her SPD since she has an actual functioning kit outside it lol
"Zangief did not and does not feel good outside of when I hit the slots and grab someone four times in a row."
This sorta' sums up SF grapplers, sadly - And it's unlikely to ever change.
I've been playing fighting games since SF2, and games with a more freeform design (like anime fighters) have an easier time incorporating grapplers due to how wild the system mechanics can get, but SF just isn't built that way.
I'd assume that Gief *has* to be unsatisfying outside of his SPD shenanigans because if he weren't, the playerbase would HATE him. I know I would.
If he had decent strings or a vastly improved combo game, you'd have more reason to block his approaches and thus more reason to eat 30% on a bad guess from a command grab that is as fast as every other character's regular throw; Not to mention his 10% additional HP. His Oki isn't the best, but it's not like he's unable to get it, and some of his better tools (Headbutt, Heavy Punch) can lead to respectable damage on their own and get you in.
He had simpler looping setplay in some of the older titles, which wasn't particularly fun to fight against nor did it require much skill, and in exchange the rest of his kit was even worse if you could believe it. He was bad in 4, absolutely terrible in 5, even in the final version of the game...
If he's too good at doing the thing he does best, he's boring to fight.
If the rest of his stuff is made better, the grabs have to be weakened to compensate, which defeats the purpose of picking a grappler.
It feels mean to say it, but it seems Grappler mains just have to deal with it, much like Ninja mains have to deal with doing low damage, or Zoner mains dealing with having awful up-close defense.
Then again, I'm an Aki main, my command grab is 34 frames, what do I know, lol
@@LastLune I am well aware people would get mad if a grappler was good.
But that's the *point*. At least that's how I play them. You put the fear of GOD in them with your command grab so they mash stupidly and jump carelessly then you RAM THEM with your combos because they just aren't blocking. The appeal of grapplers is the idea of getting in someone's head and making them regret every defensive decision they make. At least to me that's the appeal. To frustrate and exasperate. To subtract hope and add pain. Zangief should have remained evil because on god I swear most grappler players are just villains who haven't found their nemesis yet.
The upsides (in theory, I guess?) should be unfair offense but trash tier defense. if gief had the defense he has now but would run a train on you and make you panic when it was his turn then I wouldn't be upset. I'd be sitting in the corner blocking and waiting for someone to tie that noose for me. Right now his defense is bad and his offense is gimmicks.
Aki has troubles too, of this I've seen first hand. I respect the struggle of anyone playing her.
but lets be real, dawg, her command grab isn't the centerpiece of her kit lol. ... even though my dog-ass has been hit by it significantly more than once.
@@Aeby2886 seeing this is just making me want to go back to and stay in anime purely because the grappler archetype is allowed to function. just don't look at potemkin in the recent guilty gears. don't worry about that. we don't talk about him.
@@Unserioussam328 I wouldn't call any of that specific to grapplers, though. The amount of times someone in the corner will just focus on blocking the insane Aki mix-ups and forget that I even have a command grab is honestly hilarious. Zoners do it too by baiting people into taking unnecessary risks by making it seem like the fireball war will be going on forever.
Amusingly, I think I'd call Gief's offense "Unfair", it's just not very good.
I'd also not want to encourage the devs to make something purposefully frustrating. No judgment on how you play the game and enjoy yourself or anything, but if your goal in the game is to frustrate your opponent, then honestly you can go play with someone else, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Frustration should come from within, and that's sorta' how it is with fighting Gief currently.
This isn't to say he doesn't need buffs, though he appears to be getting those.
Fun fact though, Zangief has never actually been evil - At least not in the games. The movie made him a villainous henchman, and he's in that Wreck-It Raplh scene, but he's literally just some thicc Russian guy.
(Hot take, Aki is pretty powerful and is getting too many buffs in the next patch, lol)
The big problem with Gief is his consistancy and the lack of tool in some situation. You can't have a character that have move who seems to do something and do it 50% of the time without knowing why it's not working correctly this time. Anti air lariat is a great exemple. Then some weakness of Gief like projectile in the game are really strong in street fighter 6 and even if there the parry it's not enough and Gief has no real tool against that. So you are a grappler with no projectile who needs as a grappler to get close but your tool to get in are the same as any other charcter in the game. Then most of his toolkit are useless no one even the pro use it.
The most annoying part is that it completely feels like all characters do whatever they want and I have to work real hard for my wins.
for example getting stuck in the corner and knocked down is a really difficult situation, mostly because easy meaties.
Probably wake up drive reversal will help in some scenarios. It gets beaten by jumps and lights tho.
The thing I want to complain is stats of all characters, include dash frame, dash distance and walk speed. Chun Li, Kimberly have fucking faster back speed than Gief's forward speed, make the matchup a zoning nightmare, some characters could just do walk back and side switch combo only the whole game, while Gief will never catch them.
You have a very significant point. The frames are screwed.
Hugo on 3rd strike could miss the 720 and it had the recovery of his spd.
Different games but still very cool.
Also his command grab was a 2 framer
Ahaha, in the old days, SPD was 2F.
Marisa mains playing a brawler with a command grab: 👁👄👁
Sorry Gief bros.
Oh, yeah! And that move starts with armor...
You are so right men!!!! Personnaly i think that the character was one of the last to be presented and i think that they did not have the time to finish him really or to test him correctly because there's just too much nonsense in this character.
I'd be fine if they decided to take Gief out for a season just to redesign him.
This conversation was very fun yesterday
😮
You are right about the game being a oki festival for everyone but Gief.
50/50 oki after SPD would not break Gief but raise him to the rest of the cast level as a whiffed SPD is still equal to death.
I wish they'd do something about Gief. I'm...Still waiting. I'll try to be positive when Season 2 drops.
I feel like Gief needs at least one more decent cancelable poke too. Just because so may of his best longer range pokes get stuffed by DI for being so slow. Not saying I want Gief drive rush cancelling off of cr MK like he's Luke or Ken but something that helps you challenge in neutral that isn't a light. Maybe make 2nd hit of Chop Target combo cancel? Pretty sure that would still be fast enough to counter DI and you could only then combo extend on a counter hit. Would that be too good? Maybe I'm wrong.
There are really cool ideas running around the community for things that could help him without going for the 2mk cancel route. For example, 5mk being super cancelable or faking 5hp. They can make the character special without falling for the shoto balancing they have atm. The lack of creativity hurts.
My theory is that his condition in Street Fighter 6 has a lot to do with how Capcom treated him in Street Fighter 5. In the latter seasons, I would go on every one's twitch channel that will listen about how they were steadily destroying him. In the final build He is the only character that is not tournament viable out of almost 50 characters. Taking away throw invincibility on the EX SPD was so egregious that Zangief haters thought it was too much. In the end, even the commentators were calling him trash openly. I was really upset with that for almost 2 years. We still played him though, which may have been a sign to Capcom that we will take whatever version they gave us in Street Fighter 6
Well put, also the range on some of his moves like hellstab is just...bad. What makes me sad though is I know Capcom will not address most of the gripes.
I wonder if they are gonna make changes to hitboxes. In fact, I wonder about a lot. I wish the patch noted were out already.
@@SiberianLab confirmed the stomps will be cancelable and down hp will have ground bounce on punish counter. Still no change to lariat afaik
I love eating a DI for using mp or mk on my opponent's wakeup.
I love having a level two super that cannot punish shoto hp on wakeup
I love having a level 1 super that totally goes right by the opponent because he jumped forward and not back.
Zangief is great I guess. smh
you forgot a few things .
I love half my jump in buttons whiffing for no reason
I love having 0 reversals
I love ex lariat trading with some jump ins or some times outright losing
I love having useless buttons like df.hk or d.hp and of course tundra storm
Basically agree with this entire vid lol.
we really need a decent mid attack that we can buffer drive rush into.....cr mp SUCKS horrible range.......we cant even play neutral properly since we eat DI if u fish for chops
2MP makes me cry a little
People who say Grapplers can't be good are more delusional than low tier god and 6arikan💪💪💪
They can be good. We all want our boy to be bueno.
@@SiberianLabnah i wasn't talking about you I was talking about the kids that think that
I bet gief manon lily honda is still bottom tier, Capcom just hate grappler
With the limited information we have, it seems Manon and Honda are getting some love.
Gief also waste bar make stupid, if capcom make gief all button and move start up fast for 1 frame...
Sure gief can make lots of combos
The drc combos are very, very bad atm
the top and bottom halves of the tier list were balanced by different people.
they make no sense being in the same game.
They sure feel like characters from different games, don't they?
01:28 who the hell complaints about Zangief? all you need to do is neutral jump and press buttons whenever you want.
Men play the character before saying stupid thing.
Buff Gief
@@jeanmouloud9795 complains about fighting against Zangief
@capcom
If I ever get invited to test a season, I'd be very honest with them.