What is the female equivalent of the Hero archetype? Jordan Peterson's answer in his August 2018 QandA stream: • Q & A 2018 08 August B Follow me on Twitter @PoThePerson
It's kind of sad how feminism seeks to encourage women to pursue masculine heroism (Joan of Arc, Beatrice Shilling) while at the same time we see clueless, single, childless feminists displaying their obsession with small animals on social media (cats, miniature dachshunds etc) - an obvious manifestation of their feminine need to take care of someone. Feminism would do better to spread awareness of the importance of women historically (Lindybeige has done a couple of interesting videos about this)... While women weren't typically rulers of nations or generals of armies (ie, the people that we tend to write about in history books), aristocratic women still wielded a lot of influence; and I'm sure there were countless 'mean girl' heroes and villains throughout the past.
One of your best videos, Po. A good choice of subject and well presented. One female archetype is the "pillar of the community" - the sort of woman who binds communities together and helps maintain social standards. This is often a role women adopt after their responsibility for bearing children has passed. Some queens have successfully embodied this role, manipulating their courts and using "soft power" to guide the people rather than force of law. And every village in Britain has its Women's Institute, its Sewing Circle, its Bridge Club, its Church Social Committee etc. There's also the Mother archetype, of course. Raising children and keeping them safe and healthy has always been critically important to every society.
Ye, like there are many male archetyped, there are also a lot of female archetypes and i think it is good; although i support rigid sex roles i think that there should be some variance (i guess that men should have a higher variance in roles than women) in these roles and archetypes
For example a philosopher and a macho are both manly, for example Evola was manly, but the archetype of masculinity in Evola was different to the archetype of masculinity of Rambo or a war hero.
Who is this radiant English maiden? The good woman is a symbol for the home the good man fights for, because she is the best part of it. She is the thing most worthy of defending. This gives meaning to the actions of the hero. Fighting for her makes the man worthy. Without her (or some equivalent value) you have an adventurer rather than a hero, a man who is brave but not noble. Far from being patronizing, the whole message is premised of the idea of the intrinsic value of the feminine.
be careful when adventuring at the bottom of the garden po you never know when a wild copper/bobby might jump out from behind the shrubbery and give you a fine
Intentionally skipping everything related to the actual content: That is some nice dress, your family can be proud of you. Edit: A great take on what seems to be slowly forgotten in our day and age, although - as you or Peterson point out - deeply rooted in the human condition. Best regards.
Yeah, definitely. I think her story has masculine and feminine elements to it. That might be why the film appeals to men and women (and boys and girls)
You could argue that Belle was the character that faced the threat personified by the beast himself. Or specifically, the affliction of evil that had taken over the prince. The beast is a physical threat to Belle as he is far stronger and has a very unpredictably tempered. So her putting herself in harms way to save her father with only her wits to save her is very much like one lone and very gallant knight facing a dragon 50 times his size with nothing but a shield, a horse, a magical sword and some nifty footwork to defend himself with. Reaching back into my memory I remember seeing a 60’s/70’s grittier version of the film where the beast refused to eat the sumptuous food served to him at dinner only for her to catch him chowing down on a cadaver from a recent grave later that night. I always assumed this was part of the original tale but I never checked it out. But it does mean that she was in mortal danger just by being in his company which makes her the dragon slayer just by other means. On a side note, British spring/summer is just bloody epic. When your daughter is older take her down to that stream in the background and build a dam with her. I just did it with mine and she loved every minute.
@ross from britain that’s another angle I hadn’t thought of, interesting. The angle that I was coming from was that Belle is just as much the heroine and facing just as much physical danger as a regular beau with a blade. The strength and potential danger difference between a dragon and a heavily armed knight is the same between belle and the beast. It’s no good her beating on it’s chest or throwing the lampshade at him so she uses other means to quell his rage rather than jab him with a lance. Same story really.
Your comment at the end there gave me a chill. The idea of the young, beautiful woman who has a lot of social power but uses it as a healing, soothing influence in her community, rather than abusing that power. That to me seemed to be a perfect mirroring of something else JP said. He was commenting on the line in the Bible: 'The meek shall inherit the earth' - Actually being a mistranslation of: (Paraphrasing) He who knows how to use his sword, but keeps it sheathed.
I think this is a really important topic that needs to be discussed 'these days'. I enjoyed your thoughts, the Beauty and the Beast analogy is an excellent one that perfectly demonstrates just one dimension of female 'power' or purpose. There are many others too but I am tired of the media and Hollywood's need to assign male qualities to women, such as assertiveness, aggression and physical strength. I believe many important female attributes are repressed in women and our society suffers for it. This is a fundamentally dangerous trend in our society so thank you for talking about this subject from a far more based perspective.
I think the idea that women hold social power is accurate. I'd go a step further and say that the female archetype embodies social acceptance. That's why so much emphasis is placed on virgin shaming of men. Being "picked" by a woman is social validation. Women are attracted to a man who shows the proper social queues, like a wedding band. Seperating the archetype from any specific character is important too. A woman or man can go on either journey, as long as the writer understands the archetypes and why they contrast. (Mulan, for example)
@@11kravitzn Shattering the glass ceiling asks women to seek equal or greater compensation for labor within the capitalist system. By operating within the same system that enslaved them, the capitalistic patriarchy pushes women to emulate men in order to achieve wealth and status. Em Jay's point is an oversimplification but is most definitely not a straw-man.
@@wuwei473 "Shattering the glass ceiling" means eliminating the imposed barriers. Independent of economic system, all feminists I know want fair and equitable pay. And OP said "acting and looking like men". What feminists are telling women to look like men? And pursuing opportunity and fair compensation is not something men have a monopoly on. They only seem to because they have excluded women from doing so and told them it's not a feminine thing to do, both of which are wrong. I think OP clearly meant "act" in terms of bearing and mannerism.
@@11kravitzn "And pursuing opportunity and fair compensation is not something men have a monopoly on." "They only seem to because they have excluded women from doing so and told them it's not a feminine thing to do, both of which are wrong" The glass ceiling is all in your head, silly women. If only women werene't indoctrinated into thinking that they were inferior and instead started acting more in line with capitalistic male interests, THEN they would make all of the money in the WORLD. "Fair and equitable pay" is a determiner that is measured by the leaders within the industries themselves, MEN. The amount of money made is lined up against SEX and then compared to find disparities in pay. You'll never find "fair and equitable" under capitalism. Only "Just and bearable" Shattering the glass ceiling and destroy the patriarchy is a form of "acting and looking like men". Come on, this is feminism101.
@@11kravitzn >all feminists I know want fair and equitable pay And all Nazis I know just want a government that promotes the family unit and a cult of fitness.
Part of the problem with this topic is that, when western writers want to create a heroic female character, they rarely seem to know what to do other than take a male hero archetype and put him in a female body. For whatever reason, I think the Japanese are much better in this regard. I'd recommend you watch the anime "Psycho-Pass." The lead character-Akane Tsunamori- is a very kindhearted and virtuous woman who tries to fill the role of redeemer in the story, but nonetheless goes on a hero's journey so she can also be the kind of person who stands up to monsters and tyrants when the situation calls for it. Naturally, she learns how to do this from a badass male archetype, who is also the main person she is trying to redeem: showing how both sides complement each other.
Wonderful analysis, beautiful lady! You bring a calming effect to my day. Mark Twain wrote a biography of Joan of Arc which you might appreciate. Joan’s character fits the archetype you describe - partially. I've rented "Mean Girls" from Amazon to watch later.
I actually sternly disagreed with Jordan Peterson on this topic. Beauty and the Beast is A feminine, heroic archetype but not THE feminine heroic archetype. My belief is that the feminine heroic archetype is the woman who is put into a position where she has influence on people and instead of using her position indulge in vanity and endless external validation, helps those around her, healing them both in a practical, material sense as well as in an emotional and/or spiritual sense. This is pretty close to what you said, but I also would expand it: The focus on male heroics is on what you DO. You have to be brave, you have to face down the dragons and you have to save the maidens. For female heroics, it's on who you ARE. You have to be kind, to be humble, chaste and loving. The what you do/who you are is the essential difference between male and female myths of goodness. Of course, as with all gendered differences in this regard, some of one is in the other and vice versa. Similar to your thesis, here, but I think the core of those stories (and there are many of them) is that it goes deep into who the girl or woman is. She didn't win because she was stronger, faster or even more clever than her opponents, but because she held on to a virtuous moral core and never deviated from it, staying pure and loving, even in the face of unimaginable cruelty. It's really not a bad mythical basis at all, so it's really lame how modern "girl power" productions end up so shallow and pathetic.
For a really good example, look at Hans Christian Andersen's The Snow Queen. Gerda is practically the poster girl for the feminine heroic archetype. Her love, kindness and purity are what get her out of pretty much every bind she finds herself in and is also what leads her on her journey to rescue Kai to begin with. Ultimately, it's these same qualities that lead her to succeed. The opposite is found in the titular Snow Queen herself: She's rejected society at large so that she might live in an empty facsimile of a kingdom in the far North. She uses her power to selfishly dominate people (specifically, the male Kai) and is obsessed with vanity. There is a large tie to spirituality, as well.
Po, as expected, provides a very well thought-out disquisition. I think you precisely made the point that women, with their symbolism of chaos, are transformative agents and therefore as necessary in the equation to many archetypal stories as other actors. Additionally, you expressed the fact that women, especially young and beautiful women, have an extraordinary power over men that can be used for good or evil (or both). I think that in the cases where that power is used to manipulate, it results from the lack of the focusing power of virtue (which could be more from a lack of applied wisdom rather than malice).
I have had this question in the back of my mind ever since it was brought up to Peterson in the classrom, before that Q&A. While I keep seeing the "I can fix him" trope everywhere in stories and everyday life, I couldn't help but think there must be more to it. Your take gets a little further into explaining the heroism of using your powers for healing rather than meangirling. PS: I will now proceed to ignore that final line in the video, and kindly ask that you please film more videos outside, it's nice to look at greenery and wonder if there are fishies in the water!
I never realized until now how unique of a story the beauty and the beast is. The villain becomes a better person through the love and kindness of the female heroine.
It’s just the fundament of the archetype. Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are direct functions of that root story. I mean, the Twilight protagonist is even called Bella. It’s literally just one letter of a difference to Belle.
I'm only half way in, so forgive me if this is an unnecessary comment. The archetype of the woman that captures the heart of a fierce man is not the most important archetype. I believe the archetype of the mother, the nurturer is a more compelling story. The mother brings life into being. That's just as compelling a story as the hero that saves the world.
We do need more conversations and content like this because as much as I love Jordan Peterson's work I have felt that more elaboration is needed for women looking for a sense of meaning. A question that nags me constantly is what could a woman do if she is considered of low value (due to unattractive facial features or medical deformities). What makes me sad is that a good woman is almost exclusively portrayed as physically beautiful. Even Mother Mary, the ultimate symbol of love, purity, and submissive devotion is very physically attractive. In my case, I feel crippled by how I am generally perceived. In a way, my external insufficiencies are in complete contrast to my heart and caring nature. As of late, I have been relying on my masculine side due to feeling unheard and dismissed every time I showed any signs of feminity. In the case of Lizzie Velasquez, she has become an inspiration but is she really being perceived as beautiful and feminine or is she perceived as an inspiring man is viewed, who is respected due to his achievements?
Sometimes I think men and women would get along better without overestimating romantic love. I don't even know if romantic feelings in women and men are similar at all. I only know that women think more practically when it comes to relationships. Maybe everyone is a hero who manages to live permanently in a satisfactory relationship.
The hero or heroine archetypes are only the first part of the story. People often focus on the start of the story but discount probably the most important part towards the end, the wise father mother story after that. The together story. We can learn and relate to parts of these stories regardless of the gender we happen to be.
The ideal woman uses her abilities and skills to support and nurture her man and children. In this way, the next generation of humans can thrive. This role doesn’t bring fame and fortune- although it could through actions of the man, it is the most life sustaining and satisfying to women. Feminism crushes this ideal and makes women miserable. It’s so unfortunate that modern movies now degrade this archetype and instead cast women as tough ass kicking characters where a 110 lb woman, takes down three men Twice her size. It’s quite confusing to everyone.
My thoughts are definetly Bernadette Soubirous I cant see any other lady eclipsing that...and Po what a beautiful scene to educate us with your wisdom .
My pick for hero is always Ellen Ripley. She’s brave, resourceful, patient, confrontational, caring, cautious, peace-keeping, but tenacious all at once. The fact that she’s a woman is incidental; really, that’s my benchmark for any hero regardless of gender. There are specific traits that men or women embody better, innately or in the societal context, but the default “hero” image of any gender is Ellen Ripley for me. Also, does not the word “hero” originate from a myth centering on a female character? Like, I’ll have to look this up but I recall hearing somewhere that Hero is actually the given name of a female character, but over time people felt the bizarre need to give what is a feminine, or universal, name an extra feminized form when “hero” can be anyone.
I think the hero archetype is a universal concept. The idea of someone using or acquiring power to overcome a great adversity can apply to both men and women. Where it differs is how the archetype manifests. Womens power doesn't come from brute strength or mastery of a weapon or tactics but just like Boudica or Joan of Arc they exercise their innate female power with their own bravery and words to shame and inspire people to their cause. For Boudica it was shaming the Celtic clans into revolution against the romans, for Joan it was turning the tide of the 100 year war by leading the French army into battle.
Joseph Campbell did a series of conversations with Bill Moyers about the Hero With a Thousand Faces, years ago. The boys in most societies must be initiated by the men into their adult duties through men-only mysteries,sufferings, stories, etc. through thousands of years of human history, so he explains. But, those societies often had no more than a few hundred members scattered in little clans, where any man held all the knowledge and skills of the whole group within his whole experience and mastery. Today, we have market societies where everyone specializes, each a small part in a gigantic social machine with millions fighting over the controls the drive the damn thing. A free-for-all, more or less, where Donald's and Dankula's can run for top-man privileges with good chances of success. Men watch movies about hero's who are always saving lives and they want to emulate that sort of thing. Through personal strength and courage or a better political solution, maybe. Campbell said that traditionally young women in "traditional" societies (societies that had to manage with little more than fire and sharpened sticks) needed to be awakened to...what they already were, makers and sustainers of life and healers. Men try to make robots, computers with AI brains because we are "advanced" and "developed" , yet women have always created life and risked their lives to bring it forth. And if us Christians are right, that life you bring forth is in the image of God...I take this to mean the life women make in their bodies reflects all the qualities of God i.e. why are you, Po, so concerned with being a good person and living truthfully to high standards? This is the image of God in you. No AI machine is ever going to ask itself "Am I a good person?" I'm a confirmed Christian but not a very good one. In my view, you are a much better person than I am...much closer to God at heart, regardless of our opinions about religious beliefs and questions, which are all in the head. If I had a child and found myself dying of some fatal disease I wouldn't hesitate to leave that child in your care. All hypothetically, of course, I'm a non-breeding bachelor to this point. I don't mean to embarrass you with all this praise. Praise usually makes me feel all embarrassed, like people are just seeing one little sliver of me that isn't the hot mess which escapes their view! OK...looking forward to your next post.
I think the most inspiring female archetype in recent media that I have seen is the heroine from Spirited Away. It is aimed at children, so avoids sexual or romantic themes (although there is a dark subtext apparently). This works great though, because children need inspiration the most to set them on the right path. The heroine has to overcome fear multiple times, resist temptation, heal, cleanse corruption and (most importantly) befriend scary-looking monsters to turn them to her cause.
You're right, but... You say there are no romantic themes, which is true, but there is definitely something Beauty-and-the-Beast-like about Haku getting released from his dragon form.
@@PothePerson Your talk of the Beauty and the Beast archetype was what made me think of it, she does it in one way or another with most characters, such as the giant baby.
True. The Twin sisters might be indicative of the two extremes of femininity. One is manipulative and bossy, the other is sweet and caring, but they are actually quite similar.
@@PothePerson How about a female hero’s journey that shows a character starting out without reason and accountability, and then has to develop those things over the course of the story? 🤔
I think it’s far deeper than that. The female was always a hero, the male had to pass through some ordeal. We see this in Star Wars, Capt. Marvel, Star Trek and Doctor who.
I've always particularly enjoyed the archetype of the beauty and the beast, but I think considering the woman weak because she falls in love is a side-effect of toxic ideologies around gender being spread. The beautiful woman helping someone find his center provides a similar benefit which a mystic, a guide, a trainer, or a role model provides to help a young person realize the responsibility to live up to their potential, and then following through. Think about Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, or Yoda, or Mr. Miyagi. For that matter, there's Moana's grandmother for Moana, or any characters who are critical to guiding a budding hero with encouragement, wisdom, virtue, and healing. One of the unique characteristics of a young woman filling the role, is that she is able to perform the function without necessarily being cognizant of what she's doing - where many other guides provide insight out of their wisdom, a hero can also realize his path by the inherent desire to become the type of man that can protect virtuous beauty. I don't think that's a weakness of Belle type characters, but rather a mysterious strength. Whenever I first play a role playing game, I always choose support of some sort - the one who's supposed to survey the battleground, protect others from harm, empower them to better do what they do best in hopes of overcoming an otherwise insurmountable challenge. Someone who is detached from the direct action, who can see the threats and help strategies against them, and who let's others take the limelight. I don't think of those characters as weaker or subservient - without them the toughest challenges would be hopeless, just like without leads for them to support the challenges would be hopeless.
Good video. It's weird to say this since Mean Girls is such a silly/non-serious/comedic movie but I think it *is* a good alternative choice for a 'feminine archetype' story. Other people have remarked that the plot of that movie is somewhat similar to Jane Austin's Emma (the young debutante who suddenly finds herself at the center of attention, and impacting the lives of the men and other women around her). There does seem to be human attraction to the tale of 'young women who matures by learning to be socially responsible', much in the same manner that we also seem to like the "boy becomes a man" story arc.
Yes, maybe it would have been better to use Emma. I hadn't thought of that. I've read it (and seen Clueless) but I'm much more familiar with Mean Girls
I just want to make a small point. You could ask yourself why you are interested in this question. What comes to mind for me immediately when contemplating these archetypes is how do they apply to me and my life? If a man should aspire to be X because that's the male hero archetype, well since I'm a man, shouldn't I aspire to be X? Well, my point is that I believe reasoning in this way would be a mistake. I think you should ask the question of yourself directly instead. What should I aspire to be? When you reduce yourself to being a man or a woman you are needlessly throwing away relevent details of who you are and the situation that you're in. These particularities influence what you should aspire to be and if you discard them, then whatever answer you end up with will be a worse fit for you because of it.
it has been a while since I have looked for you, nice to find you out doors getting eaten by bugs. Hope you explore Rubin's discussions on the healing of JP. He will be back, he has more to give us just not for now We will have time to assimilate and practise.
Oh god, not Belle! That's definitely an unsatisfactory answer from Dr Peterson 😂 I like these open/honest videos of yours, like your thinking. Maybe as women we underestimate the power of playing a more supportive role due to our inherent preference for men. There's nothing like an intuitive and compassionate woman to support anyone on a personal level. It's never trivial when you need it.
She wasn't kidnapped exactly. Her father volunteered her to save himself and she went along with it. I think this is an interesting question, and I also think "Beauty and the Beast" is only part of the answer.
The non-Beauty-and-the-Beast archetype you describe, the healer archetype, is reflected in characters such as Beverly Crusher from Star Trek: TNG, Jean Grey as depicted in the very first X-Men movie (though she kind of has to “tame” Wolverine), and more recently, Clarke Griffin from The 100. Sadly, they are not nearly as well-known. Those viewers who keep going on and on about Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley are basically just enjoying male archetypes in a female package.
Archetypes are what they are. The trouble for people with strong emotional dependencies on these archetypes comes when human women are expected to behave like one. Quite a lot of us won't do so, and have no desire to do so, and that makes those dependant people very anxious and angry. This manifests in some predictably terrible ways.
Eh? It is why there should be a lot of archetypes, and some people may be similar to 2 or 3 archetypes, for example imagine a man that fits the macho and philosopher archetypes at the same time;one doesn't need to be 100% this way or the another way, but i guess that a man must be manly and a woman must be "womanly"
The character that always resonates with me as a heroine is Marge Gunderson from Fargo (1996). She is very kind, very sharp-witted, very industrious, she is a loving wife, she solves crime, she always gets her man, and she is heavily pregnant (the fact she is at work is probably related to U.S. labour laws and the financial situation she and her husband are in - he is always in bed). I wonder how I would have viewed her if she were not pregnant.
Yeah, good character. Making her pregnant doesn't change her personality, but it changes how the audience thinks about her in a way I can't quite articulate.
Another female hero archetype is the Protector of Children. A couple examples that pop to mind are Ripley protecting Newt in Aliens and Fantine doing what she must to protect her daughter in Les Misérables.
And yet, that is just an extension of a male hero protecting the family as a whole. Protecting your own tribe (ingroup) is a universal human experience, and therefore, these characters always “work”. However, they don’t necessarily provide any deeper inside into the male or female psyche beyond “everybody does what protects their own genes”.
Thank you for a beautiful video, and please do film outside again! The ultimate female archetype to me seems to be the Mother of God Virgin Mary. She had all the influence and potential of a young woman that she willingly, and blindly even, surrenderd to a greater good, resulting in the salvation of the world. ”A sword” would be going ”through her heart”, but in the end she comes out as a beloved mother of all. I’m an Orthodox Christian, but regardless if one’s a believer or not Virgin Mary is quite a sovereign archetype, isn’t she?
Accurate to say behind every good man, is a good woman? I think so. The angry and bitter part is so accurate. Also, Po, you look really lovely in that outfit.
You've ESCAPED from under the stairs?!?! Does the constabulary know you're outside your home being non-essential? XD … okay, I'll shut up and watch the video now.
This is great! I wonder, if you can spare a few minutes of what I'm sure is an extremely busy life, if you might listen to my little podcast I did on this very subject. I actually focused on what I'm calling the interplay between female and male archetypes within the 80's fantasy films Legend (1985) and Krull (1983). In mypodcast (and in a more substantive essay that I'm currently writing), I argue very much what you argue here- chiefly that the feminine heroic mandate is to* identify* and 'co-cultivate' or 'co-create' the undeveloped or untamed animal or bestial power within man. And, as you correctly point out, there is a dark turn that this story often takes that some of Disney stories may leave out. This danger results from a premature encounter of the woman with man's inner beast (perhaps from sexualizing the relationship too early) which in turn results in an externalization of the bestial power. *This,* I argue, is the source of the antagonist within the hero archetypal story in many cases. The big bad of a hero story is precisely the externalized expression of man's inner power made external via a premature and corrupted encounter with woman which happens somewhere in the relational process. This narrative is particularly well expressed within the films I talk about. The podcast in question is number 7 (second from top) on the page linked and also has an addendum to clarify some issues that perhaps didn't land my first go. Keep up your work, it's brilliant...! www.peterbenjaminmusic.org/podcast
I think Peterson also - correctly - surmises that men face a lack of quality women in their lives because modern feminism actively shuns the virtues of modesty, compassion, and any semblance of chastity.
@@11kravitzn No, the point of chastity is to enable strong families free of adultery. During the 2 billion years before the invention of reliable paternity testing, choosing the least promiscuous female was the best way for a male to make sure the offspring borne by the female are that male's offspring too.
the core feminine archetype is the mother. her ultimate relationship is then not with her man, but with his children. ask then, what is the heroism of a mother.
Joseph Campbell gets the heroes journey half right, he misses the transcendence part where he héroe sacrifices what he loves to be part of the community and keep the social cohesion moving forward.
You talked about girls having healing magic in fiction... forgive the slightly childish reference, but I've noticed that girls tend to play exclusively support characters in MMOs. Also, when males play support (as I often do), they tend to chose a female character for these roles. Interesting however, that when we think of real doctors, most people tend to think of males. I believe this is because doctors typically require huge amounts of solitude and study to master their profession - they devote themselves to their field, rather than to their spouse / family.
do you want female hero or heroine or what do you want to call them? examples of strong women who know who they are and what they are capable of, without having to scream and be angry with the whole world all the time, ok begins with tv series until the 70s: wonder woman, the bionic woman, samantha carter from stargate, susan ivanova from babylon 5, aeryn sun from farscape, xena: warrior princess, buffy the vampire slayer, 5 from doctor who: rose, martha, donna, amy and clara... and many many many more.
There's a difference between a woman taking on the role of a male hero (Ivanova) and the kind of feminine hero I'm talking about here. It's the difference between Ivanova and Delenn. Not just that one acts more feminine than the other superficially, they have a different role in the story and solve problems differently
Hi Po - Interesting, I was just thinking about the female archetype. Before I continue, it must be stressed that aside of the assertions of the feminists, men and women are quite different. As such, their archetypes will be significantly different. I have just been reading all of the Jane Austen books when I suddenly realized that the hero of the book (ie the archetype) was a woman (with the exception of Emma, where the archetype was male). Now, a question: What kind of a man does a female archetype choose? In all of her books, she does NOT choose a bad boy, but the most ideal man that she can find, and while there are bad boys in these books, they are treated with revulsion. A woman who chooses a bad boy is not an archetype. I should also mention that Jane Eyre, in the book named after her, was also a female archetype, and while you may consider Mr. Rochester a bad boy, he definitely had many excellent traits and characteristics that made himself attractive to Jane. So, this leads to a question: what do today's women consider an archetype? While post - modern thinking would push back against the archetypes I mentioned, who are their archetypes? I am sure that I would not like them because I would guess they are more along the line of the female superhero that Hollywood is providing. Now, this leads to the next question: If men and women are intrinsically different (some might say immutably different) would an archetype of 200 years ago be considered an archetype today? I think the answer is yes because the books mentioned above are still hugely popular, especially with women. As such, the archetype must resonate with an internal desire not only to be truey female but to understand what it means to be truly female. Because many of today's women have rejected this ideal archetype, most are extremely unhappy (reference "The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness") because they have made incorrect choices for their gender. Post - modernism teaches that aside from the obvious physical differences, men and women are identical. This I believe to be false, and why we are having societal troubles. Women are trying to act like men and not being happy about it. Men do not want to be with women trying to be men. This will not be resolved until we as a society relearn that men and women are intrinsically different, and require significantly different archetypes. Thoughts?
Wouldn’t the direct female equivalent of the dragonslayer hero archetype be the mother bear heroin - she kicks arse but not because she is the biggest/strongest/toughest but because of her mother instinct- Sigourney Weaver in aliens 2
From my experience all woman view all men as needing a little fixing up. Don't underestimate the level of effort it takes to really fix one up though. Most heroes die quickly in the effort. But, convincing them to die, well, that takes real talent.
I think there's a danger in reading too much into our preferences in entertainment. We generally wouldn't want to live through the sort of story we find entertaining. The reality is that while it understandably feels unsatisfactory for women to consign themselves to primarily a supporting role, despite decades of trying western society has failed to significantly increase the number of women who will choose to go out and lead or stand alone and enjoy doing so. While we might be uncomfortable with the imbalanced nature of gender in our species, denying it is not good for us. It also occurred to me that while the way men idealize ourselves and what women find attractive are nearly identical, what women idealize about themselves and what men find attractive are not necessarily quite so. While I've repeatedly heard women express how they found a male character attractive, I don't think I've ever heard a man say that they found a female character attractive. Maybe this is because what men want from women is such a personal thing that it is very difficult to express through story. Perhaps this is part of why it's harder to nail down a feminine archetype. It's also certainly true that it's harder to express in a story the more subtle, influential, and emotional ways women tend to express virtue than the raw physical and intellectual power more stereotypical of men. Filming outside might be a pain, but I enjoyed the aesthetic of it.
The problem with finding the “bad boy” and “taming” him as a heroine archetype is that as soon as that happens, the woman loses interest in the man. He is no longer a mystery. He is controllable. He has lost his alpha appeal, if you will. A man should never allow himself to be completely tamed as he will lose his masculine essence.
It's interesting to look at the wider spectrum. So you have a heroine you has a calming presence or is romantic. On the other side you have a spiteful old lady, who uses cunning and gossip to take down empires. In the middle you have femme fatale, who can use her beauty and sexuality as weapons to gain egoistical advantages. The feminine healer has the counterpart in the old witch, who uses magical potions and dances with the devil. In between you have a poisoner, who uses "unmanly" fighting tactics (but also herbial, natural, medicinal) to get what she wants.
A pleasant garden spot. What exactly are the things that people do to enhance culture and society anyway? Do men an women play different roles, generally, in advancing those? My life experiences are that men often need the desire of a woman's love and respect as the empatus to improve their overall usefulness to the greater good. Left to their own devices, men will remain selfish boys.
For years Poe has filmed her videos under a staircase as if she were Ann Frank, until she is told to stay home.
Poe the rebel.
Uhh it's "Po", not "Poe". Get it right moran.
@@spoonfuloffructose Moran? Get it right, moron.
Brian good post sir 👏
@@redleader7988 You're a jork.
Po the Teletubby
It's kind of sad how feminism seeks to encourage women to pursue masculine heroism (Joan of Arc, Beatrice Shilling) while at the same time we see clueless, single, childless feminists displaying their obsession with small animals on social media (cats, miniature dachshunds etc) - an obvious manifestation of their feminine need to take care of someone. Feminism would do better to spread awareness of the importance of women historically (Lindybeige has done a couple of interesting videos about this)... While women weren't typically rulers of nations or generals of armies (ie, the people that we tend to write about in history books), aristocratic women still wielded a lot of influence; and I'm sure there were countless 'mean girl' heroes and villains throughout the past.
oh hello princess po! casually chilling on the grass, dressed like a disney character. i love it!
One of your best videos, Po. A good choice of subject and well presented.
One female archetype is the "pillar of the community" - the sort of woman who binds communities together and helps maintain social standards. This is often a role women adopt after their responsibility for bearing children has passed. Some queens have successfully embodied this role, manipulating their courts and using "soft power" to guide the people rather than force of law. And every village in Britain has its Women's Institute, its Sewing Circle, its Bridge Club, its Church Social Committee etc.
There's also the Mother archetype, of course. Raising children and keeping them safe and healthy has always been critically important to every society.
Ye, like there are many male archetyped, there are also a lot of female archetypes and i think it is good; although i support rigid sex roles i think that there should be some variance (i guess that men should have a higher variance in roles than women) in these roles and archetypes
For example a philosopher and a macho are both manly, for example Evola was manly, but the archetype of masculinity in Evola was different to the archetype of masculinity of Rambo or a war hero.
Who is this radiant English maiden?
The good woman is a symbol for the home the good man fights for, because she is the best part of it. She is the thing most worthy of defending. This gives meaning to the actions of the hero. Fighting for her makes the man worthy. Without her (or some equivalent value) you have an adventurer rather than a hero, a man who is brave but not noble.
Far from being patronizing, the whole message is premised of the idea of the intrinsic value of the feminine.
"A girl worth fighting for"
Is there a source of your quotes?
@@richardmiller2049 I wasn't quoting anyone. This is just my opinion, although I'm probably not the first person to have this idea.
@@aleidius192 well you put your opinion eloquently.
@@richardmiller2049 Thank you!
Very beautiful dress and choice of filming location. The natural light suits you very well (:
be careful when adventuring at the bottom of the garden po you never know when a wild copper/bobby might jump out from behind the shrubbery and give you a fine
OI M8 EWE GOT A LOISCENCE 4 SITTIN' IN THE GARDEN!?!?
Intentionally skipping everything related to the actual content: That is some nice dress, your family can be proud of you.
Edit: A great take on what seems to be slowly forgotten in our day and age, although - as you or Peterson point out - deeply rooted in the human condition. Best regards.
Spirited Away has a good female hero, would recommend.
Yeah, definitely. I think her story has masculine and feminine elements to it. That might be why the film appeals to men and women (and boys and girls)
Po, the outside setting is quite refreshing. I hope you don't give up so quickly.
You could argue that Belle was the character that faced the threat personified by the beast himself. Or specifically, the affliction of evil that had taken over the prince.
The beast is a physical threat to Belle as he is far stronger and has a very unpredictably tempered. So her putting herself in harms way to save her father with only her wits to save her is very much like one lone and very gallant knight facing a dragon 50 times his size with nothing but a shield, a horse, a magical sword and some nifty footwork to defend himself with.
Reaching back into my memory I remember seeing a 60’s/70’s grittier version of the film where the beast refused to eat the sumptuous food served to him at dinner only for her to catch him chowing down on a cadaver from a recent grave later that night.
I always assumed this was part of the original tale but I never checked it out.
But it does mean that she was in mortal danger just by being in his company which makes her the dragon slayer just by other means.
On a side note, British spring/summer is just bloody epic. When your daughter is older take her down to that stream in the background and build a dam with her. I just did it with mine and she loved every minute.
@ross from britain that’s another angle I hadn’t thought of, interesting.
The angle that I was coming from was that Belle is just as much the heroine and facing just as much physical danger as a regular beau with a blade. The strength and potential danger difference between a dragon and a heavily armed knight is the same between belle and the beast. It’s no good her beating on it’s chest or throwing the lampshade at him so she uses other means to quell his rage rather than jab him with a lance.
Same story really.
Your comment at the end there gave me a chill. The idea of the young, beautiful woman who has a lot of social power but uses it as a healing, soothing influence in her community, rather than abusing that power.
That to me seemed to be a perfect mirroring of something else JP said. He was commenting on the line in the Bible: 'The meek shall inherit the earth' - Actually being a mistranslation of: (Paraphrasing) He who knows how to use his sword, but keeps it sheathed.
I think this is a really important topic that needs to be discussed 'these days'. I enjoyed your thoughts, the Beauty and the Beast analogy is an excellent one that perfectly demonstrates just one dimension of female 'power' or purpose.
There are many others too but I am tired of the media and Hollywood's need to assign male qualities to women, such as assertiveness, aggression and physical strength.
I believe many important female attributes are repressed in women and our society suffers for it.
This is a fundamentally dangerous trend in our society so thank you for talking about this subject from a far more based perspective.
Such honest and thoughtful deliberations. Really interesting and great video, thanks.
The desire of the man is the woman. The desire of the woman is the desire of the man.
A male hero journey is to leverage and a female hero journey is to remain unleveraged.
I think the idea that women hold social power is accurate. I'd go a step further and say that the female archetype embodies social acceptance. That's why so much emphasis is placed on virgin shaming of men. Being "picked" by a woman is social validation. Women are attracted to a man who shows the proper social queues, like a wedding band.
Seperating the archetype from any specific character is important too. A woman or man can go on either journey, as long as the writer understands the archetypes and why they contrast. (Mulan, for example)
“Ladies, be strong women by acting and looking like men.”
-Feminists
I love strawmen because they clearly show how dumb/desperate the person making them is.
@@11kravitzn Shattering the glass ceiling asks women to seek equal or greater compensation for labor within the capitalist system. By operating within the same system that enslaved them, the capitalistic patriarchy pushes women to emulate men in order to achieve wealth and status. Em Jay's point is an oversimplification but is most definitely not a straw-man.
@@wuwei473
"Shattering the glass ceiling" means eliminating the imposed barriers. Independent of economic system, all feminists I know want fair and equitable pay.
And OP said "acting and looking like men". What feminists are telling women to look like men? And pursuing opportunity and fair compensation is not something men have a monopoly on. They only seem to because they have excluded women from doing so and told them it's not a feminine thing to do, both of which are wrong. I think OP clearly meant "act" in terms of bearing and mannerism.
@@11kravitzn "And pursuing opportunity and fair compensation is not something men have a monopoly on."
"They only seem to because they have excluded women from doing so and told them it's not a feminine thing to do, both of which are wrong"
The glass ceiling is all in your head, silly women. If only women werene't indoctrinated into thinking that they were inferior and instead started acting more in line with capitalistic male interests, THEN they would make all of the money in the WORLD.
"Fair and equitable pay" is a determiner that is measured by the leaders within the industries themselves, MEN. The amount of money made is lined up against SEX and then compared to find disparities in pay. You'll never find "fair and equitable" under capitalism. Only "Just and bearable"
Shattering the glass ceiling and destroy the patriarchy is a form of "acting and looking like men". Come on, this is feminism101.
@@11kravitzn >all feminists I know want fair and equitable pay
And all Nazis I know just want a government that promotes the family unit and a cult of fitness.
🎶This is a mans world!
This is a mans world!
But it would mean nothing, NOTHING!
Without a woman or a girl!🎶
actually I really liked that you filmed your video outside :) and you look cute in that dress.
You look very beautiful in that dress by the way ☺️
Never seen you like this before.
A female hero archetype.....a tradwife.
Part of the problem with this topic is that, when western writers want to create a heroic female character, they rarely seem to know what to do other than take a male hero archetype and put him in a female body. For whatever reason, I think the Japanese are much better in this regard. I'd recommend you watch the anime "Psycho-Pass." The lead character-Akane Tsunamori- is a very kindhearted and virtuous woman who tries to fill the role of redeemer in the story, but nonetheless goes on a hero's journey so she can also be the kind of person who stands up to monsters and tyrants when the situation calls for it. Naturally, she learns how to do this from a badass male archetype, who is also the main person she is trying to redeem: showing how both sides complement each other.
Damsel in de-stress...
i suspect po was/is a twilight fangirl
Aw you look so lovely!
Po the perfect woman.
Wonderful analysis, beautiful lady! You bring a calming effect to my day. Mark Twain wrote a biography of Joan of Arc which you might appreciate. Joan’s character fits the archetype you describe - partially.
I've rented "Mean Girls" from Amazon to watch later.
Enjoy Mean Girls
that's a beautiful dress. it's got a traditional look to it, classy etc.
This is very good. I like what you're thinking, Po. Also, I have always loved the name Po.
_Beauty and the Beast_
I’ve not read them, but I assume it’s the same with _Twilight_ and _50 shades of grey_
That's what I hear
I actually sternly disagreed with Jordan Peterson on this topic. Beauty and the Beast is A feminine, heroic archetype but not THE feminine heroic archetype.
My belief is that the feminine heroic archetype is the woman who is put into a position where she has influence on people and instead of using her position indulge in vanity and endless external validation, helps those around her, healing them both in a practical, material sense as well as in an emotional and/or spiritual sense. This is pretty close to what you said, but I also would expand it: The focus on male heroics is on what you DO. You have to be brave, you have to face down the dragons and you have to save the maidens. For female heroics, it's on who you ARE. You have to be kind, to be humble, chaste and loving. The what you do/who you are is the essential difference between male and female myths of goodness. Of course, as with all gendered differences in this regard, some of one is in the other and vice versa.
Similar to your thesis, here, but I think the core of those stories (and there are many of them) is that it goes deep into who the girl or woman is. She didn't win because she was stronger, faster or even more clever than her opponents, but because she held on to a virtuous moral core and never deviated from it, staying pure and loving, even in the face of unimaginable cruelty. It's really not a bad mythical basis at all, so it's really lame how modern "girl power" productions end up so shallow and pathetic.
For a really good example, look at Hans Christian Andersen's The Snow Queen. Gerda is practically the poster girl for the feminine heroic archetype. Her love, kindness and purity are what get her out of pretty much every bind she finds herself in and is also what leads her on her journey to rescue Kai to begin with. Ultimately, it's these same qualities that lead her to succeed. The opposite is found in the titular Snow Queen herself: She's rejected society at large so that she might live in an empty facsimile of a kingdom in the far North. She uses her power to selfishly dominate people (specifically, the male Kai) and is obsessed with vanity. There is a large tie to spirituality, as well.
uh, you mean Frozen?
@@PothePerson Why you gotta do me like that
Po, as expected, provides a very well thought-out disquisition. I think you precisely made the point that women, with their symbolism of chaos, are transformative agents and therefore as necessary in the equation to many archetypal stories as other actors. Additionally, you expressed the fact that women, especially young and beautiful women, have an extraordinary power over men that can be used for good or evil (or both). I think that in the cases where that power is used to manipulate, it results from the lack of the focusing power of virtue (which could be more from a lack of applied wisdom rather than malice).
I have had this question in the back of my mind ever since it was brought up to Peterson in the classrom, before that Q&A.
While I keep seeing the "I can fix him" trope everywhere in stories and everyday life, I couldn't help but think there must be more to it.
Your take gets a little further into explaining the heroism of using your powers for healing rather than meangirling.
PS: I will now proceed to ignore that final line in the video,
and kindly ask that you please film more videos outside, it's nice to look at greenery and wonder if there are fishies in the water!
"What is the female equivalent of the Hero archetype?"
The 'heroine' obviously.
**slow clap**
I never realized until now how unique of a story the beauty and the beast is. The villain becomes a better person through the love and kindness of the female heroine.
It’s just the fundament of the archetype. Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey are direct functions of that root story. I mean, the Twilight protagonist is even called Bella. It’s literally just one letter of a difference to Belle.
I'm only half way in, so forgive me if this is an unnecessary comment. The archetype of the woman that captures the heart of a fierce man is not the most important archetype.
I believe the archetype of the mother, the nurturer is a more compelling story. The mother brings life into being. That's just as compelling a story as the hero that saves the world.
Exactly, women are heroes when they bring the next generation into being. It is that simple.
We do need more conversations and content like this because as much as I love Jordan Peterson's work I have felt that more elaboration is needed for women looking for a sense of meaning. A question that nags me constantly is what could a woman do if she is considered of low value (due to unattractive facial features or medical deformities). What makes me sad is that a good woman is almost exclusively portrayed as physically beautiful. Even Mother Mary, the ultimate symbol of love, purity, and submissive devotion is very physically attractive. In my case, I feel crippled by how I am generally perceived. In a way, my external insufficiencies are in complete contrast to my heart and caring nature. As of late, I have been relying on my masculine side due to feeling unheard and dismissed every time I showed any signs of feminity. In the case of Lizzie Velasquez, she has become an inspiration but is she really being perceived as beautiful and feminine or is she perceived as an inspiring man is viewed, who is respected due to his achievements?
Why do a video under your staircase when it's a beautiful spring day outside? Nice there Po.
Erin Brockovich is a good one. Ree from Winter's Bone is good. Josey from North Country.
They fight hard for the ones they love.
Thanks for sharing this! its hard to find info on the female myth structure and you explained it really well👍
Norah Batty is the heroic-template to which all women must aspire.
Sometimes I think men and women would get along better without overestimating romantic love. I don't even know if romantic feelings in women and men are similar at all. I only know that women think more practically when it comes to relationships. Maybe everyone is a hero who manages to live permanently in a satisfactory relationship.
*Goes back to playing Final Fantasy VII Remake* Yes, Aerith, heal me plz.
The hero or heroine archetypes are only the first part of the story. People often focus on the start of the story but discount probably the most important part towards the end, the wise father mother story after that. The together story. We can learn and relate to parts of these stories regardless of the gender we happen to be.
Another great video
This was nice. Sure, I have other thoughts concerning this subject, but no one REALLY cares. I just like Po.
KLR-Zoomie I always read the comments. A good RUclipsr like Po knows the value of a good comment section.
I’d love to hear your thoughts
You'll always be my hero archetype. ❤️🇮🇪
The ideal woman uses her abilities and skills to support and nurture her man and children. In this way, the next generation of humans can thrive. This role doesn’t bring fame and fortune- although it could through actions of the man, it is the most life sustaining and satisfying to women. Feminism crushes this ideal and makes women miserable. It’s so unfortunate that modern movies now degrade this archetype and instead cast women as tough ass kicking characters where a 110 lb woman, takes down three men Twice her size. It’s quite confusing to everyone.
My thoughts are definetly Bernadette Soubirous I cant see any other lady eclipsing that...and Po what a beautiful scene to educate us with your wisdom .
My pick for hero is always Ellen Ripley. She’s brave, resourceful, patient, confrontational, caring, cautious, peace-keeping, but tenacious all at once. The fact that she’s a woman is incidental; really, that’s my benchmark for any hero regardless of gender. There are specific traits that men or women embody better, innately or in the societal context, but the default “hero” image of any gender is Ellen Ripley for me.
Also, does not the word “hero” originate from a myth centering on a female character? Like, I’ll have to look this up but I recall hearing somewhere that Hero is actually the given name of a female character, but over time people felt the bizarre need to give what is a feminine, or universal, name an extra feminized form when “hero” can be anyone.
When i play D&D i usually create a healer type character, even though i'm a guy, don't know that says about me..
I think the hero archetype is a universal concept. The idea of someone using or acquiring power to overcome a great adversity can apply to both men and women. Where it differs is how the archetype manifests. Womens power doesn't come from brute strength or mastery of a weapon or tactics but just like Boudica or Joan of Arc they exercise their innate female power with their own bravery and words to shame and inspire people to their cause. For Boudica it was shaming the Celtic clans into revolution against the romans, for Joan it was turning the tide of the 100 year war by leading the French army into battle.
Beauty and the Beast parallels the book of Esther. Sort of. Xerxes wasn't really a "good man" in the way the Beast was.
Joseph Campbell did a series of conversations with Bill Moyers about the Hero With a Thousand Faces, years ago. The boys in most societies must be initiated by the men into their adult duties through men-only mysteries,sufferings, stories, etc. through thousands of years of human history, so he explains. But, those societies often had no more than a few hundred members scattered in little clans, where any man held all the knowledge and skills of the whole group within his whole experience and mastery. Today, we have market societies where everyone specializes, each a small part in a gigantic social machine with millions fighting over the controls the drive the damn thing. A free-for-all, more or less, where Donald's and Dankula's can run for top-man privileges with good chances of success.
Men watch movies about hero's who are always saving lives and they want to emulate that sort of thing. Through personal strength and courage or a better political solution, maybe.
Campbell said that traditionally young women in "traditional" societies (societies that had to manage with little more than fire and sharpened sticks) needed to be awakened to...what they already were, makers and sustainers of life and healers.
Men try to make robots, computers with AI brains because we are "advanced" and "developed" , yet women have always created life and risked their lives to bring it forth. And if us Christians are right, that life you bring forth is in the image of God...I take this to mean the life women make in their bodies reflects all the qualities of God i.e. why are you, Po, so concerned with being a good person and living truthfully to high standards? This is the image of God in you. No AI machine is ever going to ask itself "Am I a good person?"
I'm a confirmed Christian but not a very good one. In my view, you are a much better person than I am...much closer to God at heart, regardless of our opinions about religious beliefs and questions, which are all in the head. If I had a child and found myself dying of some fatal disease I wouldn't hesitate to leave that child in your care. All hypothetically, of course, I'm a non-breeding bachelor to this point.
I don't mean to embarrass you with all this praise. Praise usually makes me feel all embarrassed, like people are just seeing one little sliver of me that isn't the hot mess which escapes their view! OK...looking forward to your next post.
I think the most inspiring female archetype in recent media that I have seen is the heroine from Spirited Away. It is aimed at children, so avoids sexual or romantic themes (although there is a dark subtext apparently). This works great though, because children need inspiration the most to set them on the right path. The heroine has to overcome fear multiple times, resist temptation, heal, cleanse corruption and (most importantly) befriend scary-looking monsters to turn them to her cause.
You're right, but...
You say there are no romantic themes, which is true, but there is definitely something Beauty-and-the-Beast-like about Haku getting released from his dragon form.
@@PothePerson Your talk of the Beauty and the Beast archetype was what made me think of it, she does it in one way or another with most characters, such as the giant baby.
True.
The Twin sisters might be indicative of the two extremes of femininity. One is manipulative and bossy, the other is sweet and caring, but they are actually quite similar.
Very impressive, I’ve been struggling on how to write good female characters and this was exactly what I was looking for.
just think of a man, then remove all reason and acountability ;)
@@PothePerson How about a female hero’s journey that shows a character starting out without reason and accountability, and then has to develop those things over the course of the story? 🤔
Does your husband know you're out from under the stairs and NOT in the kitchen Po? ;) Good vid, broadly agree.
I think it’s far deeper than that. The female was always a hero, the male had to pass through some ordeal. We see this in Star Wars, Capt. Marvel, Star Trek and Doctor who.
I've always particularly enjoyed the archetype of the beauty and the beast, but I think considering the woman weak because she falls in love is a side-effect of toxic ideologies around gender being spread.
The beautiful woman helping someone find his center provides a similar benefit which a mystic, a guide, a trainer, or a role model provides to help a young person realize the responsibility to live up to their potential, and then following through. Think about Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, or Yoda, or Mr. Miyagi. For that matter, there's Moana's grandmother for Moana, or any characters who are critical to guiding a budding hero with encouragement, wisdom, virtue, and healing.
One of the unique characteristics of a young woman filling the role, is that she is able to perform the function without necessarily being cognizant of what she's doing - where many other guides provide insight out of their wisdom, a hero can also realize his path by the inherent desire to become the type of man that can protect virtuous beauty. I don't think that's a weakness of Belle type characters, but rather a mysterious strength.
Whenever I first play a role playing game, I always choose support of some sort - the one who's supposed to survey the battleground, protect others from harm, empower them to better do what they do best in hopes of overcoming an otherwise insurmountable challenge. Someone who is detached from the direct action, who can see the threats and help strategies against them, and who let's others take the limelight. I don't think of those characters as weaker or subservient - without them the toughest challenges would be hopeless, just like without leads for them to support the challenges would be hopeless.
You are great.
Simplified
Man - Hero outside world by force and power
Woman - Hero of the family/society by social interactions
well said
Good video. It's weird to say this since Mean Girls is such a silly/non-serious/comedic movie but I think it *is* a good alternative choice for a 'feminine archetype' story. Other people have remarked that the plot of that movie is somewhat similar to Jane Austin's Emma (the young debutante who suddenly finds herself at the center of attention, and impacting the lives of the men and other women around her).
There does seem to be human attraction to the tale of 'young women who matures by learning to be socially responsible', much in the same manner that we also seem to like the "boy becomes a man" story arc.
Yes, maybe it would have been better to use Emma. I hadn't thought of that. I've read it (and seen Clueless) but I'm much more familiar with Mean Girls
9:33 Very interesting, I hadn't put those two pieces together. It sounds very plausible to me.
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Eve = Pandora = Helen of Troy
I just want to make a small point. You could ask yourself why you are interested in this question. What comes to mind for me immediately when contemplating these archetypes is how do they apply to me and my life? If a man should aspire to be X because that's the male hero archetype, well since I'm a man, shouldn't I aspire to be X? Well, my point is that I believe reasoning in this way would be a mistake. I think you should ask the question of yourself directly instead. What should I aspire to be? When you reduce yourself to being a man or a woman you are needlessly throwing away relevent details of who you are and the situation that you're in. These particularities influence what you should aspire to be and if you discard them, then whatever answer you end up with will be a worse fit for you because of it.
it has been a while since I have looked for you, nice to find you out doors getting eaten by bugs. Hope you explore Rubin's discussions on the healing of JP. He will be back, he has more to give us just not for now We will have time to assimilate and practise.
Status is more important for men because women generally seek status, is what I've come to understand
love the video
In my research of real hero's or bravery, it is my opinion that Sophie Scholl was the bravest human that ever lived!!!
Oh god, not Belle! That's definitely an unsatisfactory answer from Dr Peterson 😂 I like these open/honest videos of yours, like your thinking. Maybe as women we underestimate the power of playing a more supportive role due to our inherent preference for men. There's nothing like an intuitive and compassionate woman to support anyone on a personal level. It's never trivial when you need it.
Was that music fruits baskets?
yes. I would have spent this whole video talking about Fruits Basket but I didn't want to alienate my predominantly male audience
Haha, makes sense. Tohru does seem to be exactly what you are talking about.
She wasn't kidnapped exactly. Her father volunteered her to save himself and she went along with it. I think this is an interesting question, and I also think "Beauty and the Beast" is only part of the answer.
The non-Beauty-and-the-Beast archetype you describe, the healer archetype, is reflected in characters such as Beverly Crusher from Star Trek: TNG, Jean Grey as depicted in the very first X-Men movie (though she kind of has to “tame” Wolverine), and more recently, Clarke Griffin from The 100. Sadly, they are not nearly as well-known. Those viewers who keep going on and on about Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley are basically just enjoying male archetypes in a female package.
Beverly Crusher is a good example but she is a bit of a 'girl boss'. Still, she's more nurturing than Polaski.
Archetypes are what they are. The trouble for people with strong emotional dependencies on these archetypes comes when human women are expected to behave like one. Quite a lot of us won't do so, and have no desire to do so, and that makes those dependant people very anxious and angry. This manifests in some predictably terrible ways.
Eh?
It is why there should be a lot of archetypes, and some people may be similar to 2 or 3 archetypes, for example imagine a man that fits the macho and philosopher archetypes at the same time;one doesn't need to be 100% this way or the another way, but i guess that a man must be manly and a woman must be "womanly"
The character that always resonates with me as a heroine is Marge Gunderson from Fargo (1996). She is very kind, very sharp-witted, very industrious, she is a loving wife, she solves crime, she always gets her man, and she is heavily pregnant (the fact she is at work is probably related to U.S. labour laws and the financial situation she and her husband are in - he is always in bed). I wonder how I would have viewed her if she were not pregnant.
Yeah, good character. Making her pregnant doesn't change her personality, but it changes how the audience thinks about her in a way I can't quite articulate.
Another female hero archetype is the Protector of Children. A couple examples that pop to mind are Ripley protecting Newt in Aliens and Fantine doing what she must to protect her daughter in Les Misérables.
And yet, that is just an extension of a male hero protecting the family as a whole. Protecting your own tribe (ingroup) is a universal human experience, and therefore, these characters always “work”. However, they don’t necessarily provide any deeper inside into the male or female psyche beyond “everybody does what protects their own genes”.
Thank you for a beautiful video, and please do film outside again! The ultimate female archetype to me seems to be the Mother of God Virgin Mary. She had all the influence and potential of a young woman that she willingly, and blindly even, surrenderd to a greater good, resulting in the salvation of the world. ”A sword” would be going ”through her heart”, but in the end she comes out as a beloved mother of all. I’m an Orthodox Christian, but regardless if one’s a believer or not Virgin Mary is quite a sovereign archetype, isn’t she?
I think so
Women in caring and protective rolls are always heroic. Though it's a subtle thing I've been completely ore stricken by it at times.
Accurate to say behind every good man, is a good woman? I think so. The angry and bitter part is so accurate. Also, Po, you look really lovely in that outfit.
You've ESCAPED from under the stairs?!?! Does the constabulary know you're outside your home being non-essential? XD
… okay, I'll shut up and watch the video now.
This is great! I wonder, if you can spare a few minutes of what I'm sure is an extremely busy life, if you might listen to my little podcast I did on this very subject. I actually focused on what I'm calling the interplay between female and male archetypes within the 80's fantasy films Legend (1985) and Krull (1983). In mypodcast (and in a more substantive essay that I'm currently writing), I argue very much what you argue here- chiefly that the feminine heroic mandate is to* identify* and 'co-cultivate' or 'co-create' the undeveloped or untamed animal or bestial power within man. And, as you correctly point out, there is a dark turn that this story often takes that some of Disney stories may leave out. This danger results from a premature encounter of the woman with man's inner beast (perhaps from sexualizing the relationship too early) which in turn results in an externalization of the bestial power. *This,* I argue, is the source of the antagonist within the hero archetypal story in many cases. The big bad of a hero story is precisely the externalized expression of man's inner power made external via a premature and corrupted encounter with woman which happens somewhere in the relational process. This narrative is particularly well expressed within the films I talk about.
The podcast in question is number 7 (second from top) on the page linked and also has an addendum to clarify some issues that perhaps didn't land my first go. Keep up your work, it's brilliant...!
www.peterbenjaminmusic.org/podcast
I think Peterson also - correctly - surmises that men face a lack of quality women in their lives because modern feminism actively shuns the virtues of modesty, compassion, and any semblance of chastity.
Feminism also spits on the idea of loyalty and tries to glorify infidelity.
Why is chastity good?
@@11kravitzn Because sex has been around for 2 billion years, but reliable paternity testing has only been around for 30 years.
@@kotekzot
So the point of chastity is so we know who should send the child support payments?
@@11kravitzn No, the point of chastity is to enable strong families free of adultery. During the 2 billion years before the invention of reliable paternity testing, choosing the least promiscuous female was the best way for a male to make sure the offspring borne by the female are that male's offspring too.
the core feminine archetype is the mother. her ultimate relationship is then not with her man, but with his children. ask then, what is the heroism of a mother.
I’m a woman and I’m not really interested in ‘taming a beast’. What does this mean?
Joseph Campbell gets the heroes journey half right, he misses the transcendence part where he héroe sacrifices what he loves to be part of the community and keep the social cohesion moving forward.
You talked about girls having healing magic in fiction... forgive the slightly childish reference, but I've noticed that girls tend to play exclusively support characters in MMOs. Also, when males play support (as I often do), they tend to chose a female character for these roles.
Interesting however, that when we think of real doctors, most people tend to think of males. I believe this is because doctors typically require huge amounts of solitude and study to master their profession - they devote themselves to their field, rather than to their spouse / family.
I suggest that all women should watch the movie based on a true story "Sophie Scholl thr final days" And know a real hero!
do you want female hero or heroine or what do you want to call them? examples of strong women who know who they are and what they are capable of, without having to scream and be angry with the whole world all the time, ok begins with tv series until the 70s: wonder woman, the bionic woman, samantha carter from stargate, susan ivanova from babylon 5, aeryn sun from farscape, xena: warrior princess, buffy the vampire slayer, 5 from doctor who: rose, martha, donna, amy and clara... and many many many more.
There's a difference between a woman taking on the role of a male hero (Ivanova) and the kind of feminine hero I'm talking about here. It's the difference between Ivanova and Delenn. Not just that one acts more feminine than the other superficially, they have a different role in the story and solve problems differently
A tricky one. It's not quite Lara Croft.
Hi Po - Interesting, I was just thinking about the female archetype. Before I continue, it must be stressed that aside of the assertions of the feminists, men and women are quite different. As such, their archetypes will be significantly different. I have just been reading all of the Jane Austen books when I suddenly realized that the hero of the book (ie the archetype) was a woman (with the exception of Emma, where the archetype was male). Now, a question: What kind of a man does a female archetype choose? In all of her books, she does NOT choose a bad boy, but the most ideal man that she can find, and while there are bad boys in these books, they are treated with revulsion. A woman who chooses a bad boy is not an archetype. I should also mention that Jane Eyre, in the book named after her, was also a female archetype, and while you may consider Mr. Rochester a bad boy, he definitely had many excellent traits and characteristics that made himself attractive to Jane.
So, this leads to a question: what do today's women consider an archetype? While post - modern thinking would push back against the archetypes I mentioned, who are their archetypes? I am sure that I would not like them because I would guess they are more along the line of the female superhero that Hollywood is providing.
Now, this leads to the next question: If men and women are intrinsically different (some might say immutably different) would an archetype of 200 years ago be considered an archetype today? I think the answer is yes because the books mentioned above are still hugely popular, especially with women. As such, the archetype must resonate with an internal desire not only to be truey female but to understand what it means to be truly female. Because many of today's women have rejected this ideal archetype, most are extremely unhappy (reference "The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness") because they have made incorrect choices for their gender.
Post - modernism teaches that aside from the obvious physical differences, men and women are identical. This I believe to be false, and why we are having societal troubles. Women are trying to act like men and not being happy about it. Men do not want to be with women trying to be men. This will not be resolved until we as a society relearn that men and women are intrinsically different, and require significantly different archetypes.
Thoughts?
I agree
Wouldn’t the direct female equivalent of the dragonslayer hero archetype be the mother bear heroin - she kicks arse but not because she is the biggest/strongest/toughest but because of her mother instinct- Sigourney Weaver in aliens 2
I think Rippley is the 'survivor' archetype, which is less masculine than the 'dragon slayer' but still not quite feminine
From my experience all woman view all men as needing a little fixing up. Don't underestimate the level of effort it takes to really fix one up though. Most heroes die quickly in the effort. But, convincing them to die, well, that takes real talent.
I think there's a danger in reading too much into our preferences in entertainment. We generally wouldn't want to live through the sort of story we find entertaining.
The reality is that while it understandably feels unsatisfactory for women to consign themselves to primarily a supporting role, despite decades of trying western society has failed to significantly increase the number of women who will choose to go out and lead or stand alone and enjoy doing so. While we might be uncomfortable with the imbalanced nature of gender in our species, denying it is not good for us.
It also occurred to me that while the way men idealize ourselves and what women find attractive are nearly identical, what women idealize about themselves and what men find attractive are not necessarily quite so. While I've repeatedly heard women express how they found a male character attractive, I don't think I've ever heard a man say that they found a female character attractive. Maybe this is because what men want from women is such a personal thing that it is very difficult to express through story. Perhaps this is part of why it's harder to nail down a feminine archetype. It's also certainly true that it's harder to express in a story the more subtle, influential, and emotional ways women tend to express virtue than the raw physical and intellectual power more stereotypical of men.
Filming outside might be a pain, but I enjoyed the aesthetic of it.
Redeeming a person is quite a deed. Not a petty thing to do. Saving the world? Like Greta?
The problem with finding the “bad boy” and “taming” him as a heroine archetype is that as soon as that happens, the woman loses interest in the man. He is no longer a mystery. He is controllable. He has lost his alpha appeal, if you will. A man should never allow himself to be completely tamed as he will lose his masculine essence.
I think there's truth in that.
It's a perilous endeavour for women, since both failure and success can lead to disappointment
It's interesting to look at the wider spectrum. So you have a heroine you has a calming presence or is romantic. On the other side you have a spiteful old lady, who uses cunning and gossip to take down empires. In the middle you have femme fatale, who can use her beauty and sexuality as weapons to gain egoistical advantages.
The feminine healer has the counterpart in the old witch, who uses magical potions and dances with the devil. In between you have a poisoner, who uses "unmanly" fighting tactics (but also herbial, natural, medicinal) to get what she wants.
A pleasant garden spot.
What exactly are the things that people do to enhance culture and society anyway? Do men an women play different roles, generally, in advancing those?
My life experiences are that men often need the desire of a woman's love and respect as the empatus to improve their overall usefulness to the greater good. Left to their own devices, men will remain selfish boys.