Kreia's wisdom on altruism
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 22 ноя 2024
- Every philosophy student has encountered this one. What if by helping someone survive with charity, you ended up making them a target for desperate individuals? What if that person goes on to become to next hitler?
Blog: kinja.com/qinn
E-Mail: papitoqinn@gmail.com
Twitter: / papitoqinn
Donate: goo.gl/vm1YQa
Twitch: / papitoqinn
#StarWars #KOTOR2 #Expandeduniverse
![ARGENTINA vs. PERÚ [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xtI25ENDDSY/mqdefault.jpg)
![BRASIL vs. URUGUAY [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-hWBAuxF1eY/mqdefault.jpg)
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Kreia: Why did you do such a thing? Such kindnesses will mean nothing, his path is set.
Me: Apathy is death, Kreia.
I love how you used Kreia’s own words against her.
OHHHHHHHHHHHH🎉🎉🎉🎉
Is it really apathy in this situation? If she was truly apathetic towards the beggar, not only would she have not have given anything to him but she would not even bother musing on how it could possibly bring harm to him
@@ACEpilotM37
"Apathy" means not doing anything. Giving is doing. Easy as that.
You misunderstand apathy fool,
true apathy would be giving to the poor regardless of the outcome,
simply to feed your petty virtue
The craziest thing is how you can only appreciate this lesson fully if you play it twice and try both choices :)
Indeed
I've played this game countless times, and I still feel the urge to play it. I love it so much. Kreia is the greatest, most well written character ever. (I know that probably not true, but she's my favorite.)
Playing a light and dark playthrough respectively is a must.
Pretty sure I saw both on first play through, I reloaded a save to try and not get scolded.
I stole the "pouring sand into their hands" and "more harm with an open hands than a clenched fist" line for so many college essays it isn't even funny
I use Kreia's words and philosophies in my discussions about philosophy and beliefs systems all the time.
@Xadion That game's morality system was such a wasted opportunity. In the beginning one of the teachers explained the nuances of the two philosophies, but when you played the game the choices devolved to being a goody two-shoes and a dick.
@Xadion which is why (with Restoration mod given by the developers and GOG so it is a full game) KOTOR 2 is superior to KOTOR 1 at the end of the day. Also helps they have remnants of Black Isle Studios (aka Planescape Torment with one of the best dialogue trees in history "What can change the nature of a man?").
And Fallout 1 and 2.
Bioware might make great RPG games. But like Bethesda they lack that one thing that should expand how alliement works. That's one thing Obsidian got right.... in a sense. They needed to expand it more. Not just lock quests behind alignment based requirements but show it off to all who can decide what fits.
@@Flufferz626 I dont think it is fair to call KOTOR 2 superior to KOTOR 1 or other way around. (That is like calling red apple red but both apples are from same tree) Without KOTOR 1’s success there would not be KOTOR 2. Without Darth Revan’s journey there would not be Kreya’s wisdom.
Both are in state of equilibrium in terms of interest and world building. Sure it expands the story KOTOR franchise but also enhance the story of its predecessor. We can argue level of KOTOR 2’s enhancement to end consumer (the player) but that is not objective instead it is subjective.
Kreia: “the force is cringe”
Yet uses it anyways
@@danieltinsleykhvsff9622she wants to kill the force, using it is a means to an end. You misunderstand her.
She uses it as one would a poison.
the new films would have done well to understand this. the force in the original trilogy was a story device, a tool, a flavor of the universe. sequels and prequels treated it like it was the thing we came to see, at the expense of the characters and writing.
Kreia tells you to be human. to not seek pure power, or to pursue blissful naivety. the force was not the be-all-end-all, but a tool, not a crutch. pursue what can mutually benefit, and what shouldn't bite you in the ass. fantastically written character. shame the core films haven't progressed since the original trilogy ended, except in all the offshoot media like Kotor that doesn't see as wide an audience, going not nearly as appreciated.
Kreia isn't suggesting the poor need to earn charity, just that giving it may not necessarily have any effect on the world that you intended. Whether people get what they "earn" in life is another question entirely. Her comment contains no judgement or notion that people deserve anything, good or bad. She isn't necessarily right, or wrong, or wiser than anyone else, these are just the thinking processes of a character - but remember, in this case it's the thinking of a Sith. The Star Wars films seem to suggest that trying to engineer society as she does, is ultimately what leads people to fall to the Dark Side, as they begin to place ends before means - fear of the outcome. Yet the nature of the means also send a message. Living in the present moment and doing things because they are right, rather than because they serve a greater purpose may be what Star Wars suggests prevents this corruption.
There are many people who are in situations that perhaps only charity can help them and perhaps help them to a path where they may earn the rest of what they need. But this is Nar Shaddaa and perhaps she knew that giving people there what they did not deserve, or treating them cruelly will lead to greater evil. She wants you to avoid extremes. The Jedi, being light side extremists, were mostly concerned that the means are just instead of the ends. And when they decided they had to do something questionable to reach their goal, like say brainwashing Revan, they're hated for it. They try to use their power to solve problems for people, stressing means, and when something like the mandalorian wars come along, they sit back and preach big picture. From all the 'good' that the Jedi have done, they've unknowingly created equal harm. The Jedi are handicapped by their idea of right and wrong. They do not execute prisoners. On it's own it seems noble. Yet because of this, they sent Ajunta Pall and the rest of the dark Jedi into exile, and they formed the Sith empire.
I kinda disagree with that philosophy, because if you look at it in the big picture the "ends" are always the same. eventually all that will be left in the universe is a dark cold lifeless oblivion where all the joy and pain people might have felt in the past meant nothing. whether my decisions cause my death to happen in a week or in 10 years makes no significant difference. All that matters is who I was during that short time, In my opinion the "means" are the only thing you can control, or at least have influence over.
InfinityTemplar 你好 That's a bit a nihilistic point of view though. "The universe will eventually collapse on itself so it's all meaningless." At least that's what I think you're saying. The 'means' and 'ends' are connected. With influence over the means you're manipulating the end. Even if this universe comes to an end, we may find a means to survive somehow.
>The Jedi, being light side extremists, were mostly concerned that the means are just instead of the ends.
>The Jedi are handicapped by their idea of right and wrong.
That isn't true. The Jedi care about balance more than anything else. For instance, they didn't lift a finger to save the Ubese when their world got nuked, nor have they made concerted effort against galactic slavery. The problem isn't that the Jedi's moral purity unintentionally creates a vacuum for evil. Rather the problem is that the Jedi are inherently hypocritical, pseudo-pacifist. Both Jedi and Sith seek to dominate the universe. While the Sith are pretty open about this, the Jedi like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry. In reality the Jedi only mobilize en masse when something significantly threatens the status quo. You simply don't see them try to free the slaves in the outer rim or something during peace time. While individual Jedi might be "good" (or at the very least lawful neutral) the Jedi order as a whole isn't.
Papito Qinn
Life is like a telltale game, at first glance you think your choices can change the ending, but the truth is the only thing your choices do is determine what kind of person you are. I mean this to say we should stop focusing on what we can't control, but focus on what we can control.
In the words of Epictetus "We can control our opinions, our goals, our desires, and our aversions. In short, whatever we generate from within ourselves. We cannot control our bodies, our possessions, our reputations, and our place in the world; that is, whatever is generated outside ourselves."
You said my view was nihilistic (in a way it is) but the truth is I hate nihilism. Nihilism is the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless. I claim all things done in the physical realm are vain, but the things you do to yourself and others in a moral/spiritual sense are the only things that truly matter.
"Pouring sand into his hands" is also a good analogy of the pointlessness of trying to teach a fool
anything.
perhaps as foolish and as pointless as teaching Darth Malak how to use the force?
I remember the first time I played this scene. I was going full on good girl (Exile was always female), so of course I gave the credits.
Enter Kreia.
Being considerably younger I, like quite a few people I imagine, found Kreia's advice tiresome and annoying... right up to the point where the guy gets punched in the face and his money - MY money - stolen.
I think that's when I started to appreciate what Kreia had to say rather than just heave a heavy sigh at another bout of 'You did this wrong again, stupid.'
Kreia had me pegged at the start of the game "Like so many Jedi, you hear but you do not LISTEN!"
Nar Shadaa is where I began to correct that.
That's a really good point. They called it right from the start. People heard but didn't listen.
Same history here.
She is not saying don’t give to the poor. She is highlighting that our good intentions without thought may have catastrophic impact for the people we want to help.
One of the most important deconstructions of the "do good deed to earn blue points" in an RPG ever.
Kreia is absolutely right, careless charity can be a bad thing for many reasons. I love how she acknowledges there is a time and a place for it. Acting without thought rarely ends well.
More games should be courageous and blindside players carelessly "roleplaying" someone who does every good/bad deed available. Some acts of wanton cruelty and evil should accidentally lead to unironically good effects and also thoughtless good deeds should also have occasional dire consequences.
Kreia was kind to Malak and Revan and many other Jedi she taught. She shared wisdom with many who were not able to withstand the temptation that always accompanies wisdom's power.
"help, but don't help needlessly"
Which often pairs and is mirrored by another saying:
"Trust, but don't trust blindly"
"Trust, but verify"? - Russian Proverb
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Yeah, but I always felt like it's a more like retrospective statement. It's just how the life goes. Sometimes you want to do good, but in fact your actions leads to worse possible scenario. You can't affect it really, because you never know how everything will turn around. You can stop doing good things - that's one way to prevent it. But that's not how we want it sometimes.
It still pisses me off that so many people misunderstand Kreia because of this scene.
Look at it like it's a litmus test.
Than you still don't understand what she means.
Mac-Attack she scolds you for cruelty as well. The lesson is about the world being neither black or white, but filled with nuance. It’s a jab at the force, and all radical ideologies by extension
@Mac-Attack I think you've misinterpreted the lesson here. She's not saying at all that this WILL happen because you were nice. She is saying it COULD happen because you didn't THINK. This actually does have real world parallels, watch Kreia's Conundrums on Charity for a case of what happens when a person gives to starving refugees without thinking the consequences through.
And also, if you look a bit deeper into Kreia and her dialogue, you'll find she doesn't appreciate blind obedience to anyone, even herself. She advocates disagreement because that means you're discussing your own opinion, and not simply droning out the same words like a dogmatic Jedi or a rabid Sith.
@Mac-Attack the lesson is simple. More times than not a person who can properly use $5 already has $5. How many mistakes can you make with a force or weapon which you are not used to wielding? A great many
Man is only responsible for the actions that HE takes. Any unintended consequences are the results of other more malicious men. Believing you can control unintended consequence is a root to ego, enforcing the belief that one can be in total control of all that branches off from himself. So why not be altruistic? It's not your fault that others cannot choose good.
Based
@@SonofSolomon Still, no one can predict the future, nor the exact consequences of one's actions. Therefore, it's better to be good whenever possible, to leave even a slight good impact on the world. Altruism is right.
@@SonofSolomon I don't mean big political moves. All politics are guaranteed to fall into intense grey areas despite good intentions, that we agree on. However, what I mean by altruism is the simple act of helping people. Protecting your neighbor from genocide. That, NOT grand sweeping gestures of power, but simply helping those in need, is what altruism is about. Hell, the entire original star wars movie is about that.
@@SonofSolomon but that's what I'm saying. If you live by that logic, no one will receive help at all and the world would be devoid of all potential good.
@@SonofSolomon okay, that seems like a fine compromise. I'm just saying, helping people in need isn't necessarily a bad thing.
"... lest you do more damage with open hands than with a clenched fist." I am not sure if I wanna make a Jade Empire joke or a Will Smith joke.
Why not both? Although I think I already did the Will Smith one: ruclips.net/video/tQKYrs6WlHA/видео.html
Kreia is beyond wise it absolutely amazes me to this day.
This isn't an argument against altruism, it's an argument against any action at all. "Bad things could happen" could be applied to anything and everything you do. This is just the same faulty logic of the prime directive from trek, restated. The logical conclusion of this line of thinking is apathy (ironically, enough), since any choice, including doing nothing, is still an action that has consequences you can't know.
your an idiot if you think that was the point kiddo....
the lesson is to be mindful of your actions because they can have unintended consequences.... just because you did a good deed, does not mean it will have a good outcome. she does not say to do nothing.... just be mindful and avoid blind charity or cruelty...
a lot of dumb people seem to completely miss that message in this, and its rather sad and pathetic
It's argument against b l i n d altruism without a forethought as well as unnecessary cruelty (if you go DS route). You completely missed the point of this interaction.
@@Nobody32990 you didn't read my comment
@@neighborhoodthreattv yeah I did and claim Kreia is arguing for nothing short of apathy (which she scolds you for on Korriban) is completely unfounded.
@@Nobody32990 11 days later and you still didn't read my comment
Am I the only one slightly worried about the sudden arrival of the people who robbed the man? Is it wrong to fear that Kreia influenced them directly?
It is a bit of paranoia on my end but considering who she is....
Nah, Nar shaddaa was supposed to be teaming with refugees. Those dudes probably just saw him take the money and went up to him. It was bound to happen without any manipulation.
@@PapitoQinn - The Second man (the one with his back to the fourth wall) isn't even part of the scene, lol. He's just one of the extras that wandered into the scene at the wrong moment.
From experience, a person can tell when someone you know for a fact to be a bum and down in the dumps all the time is ecstatic. Normally because someone just put big drug money in his pocket, perfect time to stop the pep in his step man… naar shaaddah would most definitely have opportunists waiting for “tells”
It's these types of game that still influence me in my own real decisions. I couldn't have had a better role model than these games
I suggest you go watch Star Trek The Original Series instead.
Zeithri
Cringe.
@@_Cato_ Both are based and not cringe. Grow a pair cringe lord smh.
@@objectdefiance4027 Cringe
@@_Cato_ SMH.
i came back to this clip after the vice insider mini-doc on voluntourism. the doc had a portion on it where the interviewee talks about a volunteer in her group trying to convince a nigerian orphan to come out as lgbt. the volunteer's high-minded idealism about living your authentic self wasn't tempered by the reality that doing so outside of the west is extremely dangerous. if that orphan took their advice, they could have gotten themselves killed. even if it seems unintuitive, "be careful of charity and kindness, lest you do more harm with open hands than with a closed fist" definitely applies
I saw that Jade empire reference Kreia!
Like Qui-Gon Jinn telling Anakin to duck when about to be killed by Darth Maul. He could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble.
But how he can actually may know that Anakin will become Darth Vader and he will be responsible for millions of people lives? He believed that Anakin will became a saviour of the galaxy and the republic, not the one who will try to destroy it. Obi-Wan also believed in that. You just never know what can be in the one man's mind.
@@z483gk Ironically enough Anakin was the savior that saved the republic and balanced the force by getting rid of both Jedi and sith. It’s just the force was it’s own way of doing things.
@@zawwin1846 countless murder for peace.
@@zoltanracz5591 Padawan Massacre amirite
If Anakin dies Palps is still fucking around being Chancellor Supreme and incognito Sith or whatever, he still has the Jedi hoodwinked and he probably still order 66's them. You overestimate how big of a player Anakin is in anything that went down prior to Order 66. Sure after learning that Palps was a Sith and choosing to aid him against Windu he definitively changed the course of history, but if you remove him from the picture early the Jedi never find out that Palps is a Sith at all.
In Summery we have reason to assume that without Anakin the Jedi get 66'd & Palps becomes Emperor regardless. While Anakin's fall facilitates short term victory for Palpatine it also leads to defeat in the long term. Anakin's premature death doesn't preclude short term victory for Palpatine but it does preclude long term defeat, as it happened.
Good intent does not equate to good results. Good intent is not THE SAME as good results. If you can agree to these two things, you are halfway to being a Sith. Welcome home.
Great atrocities have been committed by people who at least at one point had the best of intentions. Many jedi fell to the dark side and/or joined the sith hoping to use its power for good intentions, but ended up leaving a trail of bodies. The means don't always justify the end. The means matter, to the galaxy and to yourself. If they don't matter to you, then you're either a fanatic or a sociopath. Civilians die in war in the name of 'national security' and they call it 'acceptable losses'. How many people do you have to kill to keep them safe? Cops go crooked under the guise of fighting fire with fire. You can't fight crime by becoming a criminal. It's like the paradox of embracing a lesser evil to remove a greater one. Either way, evil remains.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as the old adage goes.
Which is what lead to Kreia's downfall in the first place. She had good intentions by wishing to banish the Jedi, Sith, and the Force in general but failed to ponder the consequences that would come with it.
I'm not big on labels, but the reality is that Kreia is right (in this case). Over-generosity is a form of self-enriching weakness, not a virtue, no matter what people think. If you truly cared about that beggar, you wouldn't give him money he'd immediately use to get drunk with. It's easy to glad-hand and then disavow the consequences, but it's more toxic in reality than simply doing nothing.
This is true for a variety of examples.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
I love that Kreia says she hates the Force, because the Force seeks balance, but at the same time she teaches the balance of the Force. The path between selfishness and selflessness.
Don't be so egoistic that you'll become cruel. But don't be altruistic either, because you'll weaken yourself and others. If you give them something for free, they will become victims, because they haven't earned it and can not protect it. And you've denied them the possibility to grow.
But you have also weaken yourself. Others may come to you as well. If you give them something for free as well, you'll essentially kill yourself. And if you deny them your charity, they will hate those that got something.
And think about this: Is altruism really selfless? Look into your heart and tell me if you've done it for them or for yourself, because you hate the feeling of being "cold"? And if you have done it for them, because of love, than tell me if love is entirely selfless.
You'll come to the realization that altruism is a lie. You would happily be a slave, if you were altruistic.
There is significant difference between balance of Kreia and balance of the Force. Kreia's philosophy can be compared to rope balancing, not falling and moving forward albeit slowly and carefully. Balance of the Force on the other hand is violently swinging two weights from one extreme to the other and trying not to fall from the rope. In the second case at one point you are going to fall because there is no inbetween, no moment of calm or gradual change from one weight to the other. This is what she hates and wants change, to remove those wildly swinging weights and let person on the rope balance with nothing but their body. Because "balance" that Force tries to achieve galaxy far, far away is destined to be endlessly destroyed by waring jedi and sith.
I really hate being rightfully wrong in both real life and fiction.
KotOR II sure is more cinematic on its cutscenes compared to the last game and even other RPGs.
now show the other side and you can really see how neutral she is, quite an incredible thing to look at from both sides
Got you covered: ruclips.net/video/36-UMwJUuNc/видео.html
The more I learn about kreia, the more I understand where my philosophy on life came from.
It's kinda like where I live all the Homeless are doing Heroine and hard drugs, and I look at that, what am I doing giving them money, I'm not helping, I'm creating a bigger issue where now there are thousands of Homeless everywhere doing the Heroine.
Yes!
You have begun to see
Aurang nah man, take a drug addicts clothes, they’re still a drug addict. Take a drug addicts money, or in this case, don’t give him any, and they’re still a drug addict.
Ive seen some dumb people miss the point in wild ways but this has to be the dumbest and wildest miss ive seen to date
The human race is poorer for having you in it.
I didn’t know there was a way to get through this encounter without losing influence with Kreia
Gaining influence with Kreia isn't a matter of blind obedience, but telling and showing her that you are listening and taking her advice into consideration. She doesn't care if you agree or not, just that you come up with the decisions you make yourself, instead of following a blind dogma.
Yeah you have to pretend her lesson isn’t stupid and say that her ramblings are worth considering in order to not lose influence. Unintended consequences is a great conversation, but how donating $5 could lead to a homeless person getting punched takes it too far to the point she’s essentially saying you should never act in the face of uncertainty.
@@yourgoblinsecretary3842 kid you have said that comment in many different replies... copy and paste like the baffoon you are
1:04
"Thats him Jared, he took my money"
However, smallest thing echoes, she said. This is one key dimension:
Yes charity and kindness can also have their echo to flow, healing the galaxy in microlevels... Though, required to be careful as she said.
Moreover, best charity is to teach standing on own feet without interfering other's standing... or without interfering your own closer (henceforth bigger) light side path..
One Arabic proverb says more or less this: (not word by word) "when you make charity to someone, try to show them a way also (otherwise most likely dull, continuation of misery)".... I think this is extremely true, if charity is sacred, a good show & pretentiousness & image, for those have a power. A real secret arrogance can develop through this that nobody can detect.
Another thing
About "The colonialist expansion/crusade" vs "beggar natives" throughout human history
They made countless mistakes and come up with world wars at the end this way:
The places they went They started to be cruel towars those non alike... They lied themselves by race-theories
But it reflected in closer relations with common european folks...
Not even knowing that the accumulation for civilization is merely a coincide for human will.. (The earth is a living thing, along with its forces: water, sun, ground shapes, fire, and so forth...)
There is a rule in populism i noticed: a populist inner politics leads to outer populism but war.
Similarly, an outer (colonialism related) cruelty is reflected soon or later to inner dynamics, and to closer relations (neighbors)
Greed... Inhabitants gave 10, and colonialist give 1 and cruelty.
Natives were like beggers, no tool or anything. Through lack of accumulation of civilizations. No civilizative cities at all...
However colonialist was not patient in trying to show ways. In facti never tried most likely...
Just pursued "extremely profitalble trades"...
After the global wars proved something, some lesson, it has been better
But lesson isnt complete. .... To be continued....
basically. give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
just love how any choice you make is actually the wrong one with kreia but she isnt angry jsut teaches you how things go
Refugee voice actor is Robert Baratheon from GoT
Hagoromo Otsutsuki from Naruto is a prime example of this video in action.
True lol
People in RUclips comments really be using a flawed argument made by a Sith lord in a video game to justify why they dont give quarters to homeless people
They learned the wrong lesson from this interaction.
I wouldn't say the argument is flawed. There's a lesson there to be sure. As for the other bits yeah kinda weird.
Nevermind that homeless people in reality are known to waste their funds on drugs or liquor to satisfy their addiction. I'm sure no beggars on Nar Shadaa do that at all. The lesson isn't to cease all generosity.
@@polyman6859 correct, its to be more selective with your charity... she does not say do nothing, just be mindful of your actions and think before you act.
There should have been another option: "i paid him to f*** off"
Kreia's arguments are incomplete. One can never know entirely if your actions will have good or bad repercussions in time. We can try to calculate if our actions will bring harm or good, but there will always me a margin of error. What counts is not the action itself, but the movie behind the action. Compassion is the only basis for morality, because it concludes that bringing peace to others, relieving the sufferings of others through the realization that I and the other are in essence the same, is the only state in which moral good actions come from.
"Compassion is the only basis for morality."
This is wrong. While it's true you can never know entirely if your actions will have good or bad consequences, you have the moral obligation to at least try to weight the risks and possible consequences of an action before taking it. Recklessly taking actions that has a high likelihood of doing harm just because it's the compassionate thing to do is morally wrong. Consequences matter as much as intent, if not more, when it comes to morality. Irresponsibe acts cannot be morally right.
Ricard de Virgo ..... it's like Real Life..... the choices good or bad... What is good? What is Evil?
Ricard de Virgo So in a sense without morality stability decreases so by not balancing kindness and charity everything becomes more dangerous
No joke the Homeless population is so out hand in my small town. The business i work at is in danger of being burned down to because they keep starting fires right next to our buiding.
In fact I'm having to take my tools home every day because I'm afraid the whole place will be burned down. Because these damn homeless crackheads.
So, I actually must give the beggar 5 credits to gain an influence point from Kreia. From that fact, I deem Kreia weighs more on 'lecturing about making a good result' than 'small cruelties lead to greater evil and consequences, echo!'. I've always thought Kreia wants to serve the greater good and conversation options at this time seem reinforcing that thought. Anyways, thanks for the vid. I was struggling for not getting influence while keep choosing the dark side option :(
Yes, if you give him the money and tell Kreia that you'll consider her council, you gain influence with her. Still, if you haven't already, I would suggest watching this video of mine where I discuss this lesson: ruclips.net/video/PXyJv3ssaOE/видео.html
Kreia only gives you the influence bonus for saying you'll take on her advice... she doesn't give 2 shits about the homeless guy.
If you kill the guy she considers it a waste of strength for nothing but potential trouble in the future. And will lecture you about that side too. She dont like it either way. Just wants you to learn a lesson from it.
A better solution would be to give him the credits if he earnt it.
Fun fact: No matter what you do Kreia will debate you. Because Kreia here is opening debates she does it in the whole game it doesn't matter if she is right or wrong she will bring arguments and test your resolve.
You can try this with your friends and family have one member say something that it is clearly wrong like "slavery could be a good thing" and have others prove him wrong via debate.
It’s called being “the devil’s advocate”.
@@ArtyMac Yep apologies English isn't my first language and I wasn't finding the correct word for it.
One of the things that bothers me greatly is how nobody seem to talk about the circumstances of the scene:
Nar Shaddaa, Refugees, Exchange, your bounty....
All of this plays together: A realife comparison would be the following: You end up in latin america. Not the nice places but the drug lord/cartel areas. You spot some postitutes. They beg for you to become a "customer" for money.
Would you accept this, knowing you are in hostile territory?
Would you decline and give them money for free? All of them or just 1 of them?
I am pretty sure most of you wouldn't give a dime to them expecting them to try to rob you, or even worse start a fight between each other for the money if you donate only to one - only for it ending in the local cartel's hand at the end of the day anyway... Then there is the fact that the area is under surveillance so you'd probalby try to keep a low profile... (In the Exile's case there is a bounty on your head so high you can LITERALLY buy a planet with it...)
All in all it makes sense to keep to yourself & don't make a scene like giving money away for free in an area were everyone is so desperate that some would probably suck you off for a fee bugs. In an area where one must assume everybody is an Exchange (space mafia) agent/spy or heavily indepted to them so that they will get screwed over anyway...
Dark Side: “Hey you need to lend a helping hand to make a difference.”
Light Side: “Stop giving out handouts to the poor!”
The dark side option has Kreia state that asserting your power where it's unnecessary is pointless and there will be times in the future to demonstrate your strength, not whatever you just made up.
So is Kreia like the Socrates of the Star Wars Universe; annoyingly questioning every action to get you to truly think and understand the consequences?
Sure. But she's an amalgamation of many different philosophers.
kreia explains the REAL law of attraction and its alot more harsh than what new age gurus think it is.
Isn't this why Jesus said to always practice your charity in private? Kreia is merely conflating private charity with the kind of dangerous impulse giving to the homeless which is in fact as morally grey as she points out. You should not give money to the homeless; temporary solutions are really more problems not yet hatched. She is right about that. But giving in private, at careful discretion is impervious to her argument. What does anyone have to gain by asking for a receipt for every single good deed they perform? Or, what does anyone have to gain by recoiling from basic kindness and decency for fear that it will not bring you pleasure in observing the result? Such perverse twisting and intellectualizing will net you exactly zero benefit in the long run. Do I drive to work and earn a living? Or should I stay home due to the philosophical likelihood that I die in a car crash being so high?
Kreia is projecting her own failures onto the Exile. She failed to reconcile the reality pain and suffering with her seemingly limitless capabilities, and the Jedi Code didn't stop it. What failed for her must also fail for the exile, as the Sith have no faith in the Force. What if the homeless guy getting attacked led to a yet greater outcome down the road? She claims to have foresight, yet still limits the scope of her foresight to what supports HER line of reasoning. How convenient.
Light Side Charity Option makes White Guy Beat Up Black Guy
Dark Side Cruelty Option makes Black Guy Beat Up White Guy
This game is deeper than we’ve all given it credit for
Why does that beggar sound like Gollum from the old school LotR cartoon movie?
"That's a good point Kreia, hold on sec please. Hey Siri, could you tell me who the fuck asked?"
"How good is the writing in KOTOR2?"
"Well one of the characters convinces you why charity sucks."
Do you donate money to enable temporary respite, or do you create and promote avenues where they can elevate themselves out of misery?
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for the rest of his life.
These comments stink.
Definitely ayn rand of star wars
Kreia speeks like a better jedi than most jedi
This is a very powerful lesson and holy shit, I wish Kreia was there to give the insufferably "kind" Steven Universe this lesson. She is not saying that altruism has no value either. She's saying that you have to think about the consequences of your actions, however well-intentioned, because once those credits leave your hands into the beggar's, whatever happens next is outside your control.
Should you give a homeless person money, if they are likely to spend it on drugs or alcohol?
Why do you care if it's spent on drugs or booze? Would you rather they save the money, get a gun, and use it to rob someone?
I haven't tried this yet, but what happens when you lie and tell him you have no credits at all?
"Why would you do such thing"
I don’t think people understand this lesson. Maybe I don’t understand it either. But I think Kreia’s point here is that by just giving the beggar the five credits he didn’t work for, he’ll have no desire or sense to protect himself, which makes him easy prey.
Does that make sense? I’m trying to find the best way to word this.
He didn’t have to work for those credits. So those five credits don’t hold the same value as someone who worked to earn 5 credits. So he didn’t have the sense to conceal the credits or protect himself. That’s why he was such an easy target.
I wish I was more articulate.
These are my thoughts on it: ruclips.net/video/PXyJv3ssaOE/видео.html
I give changes to whoever walks into me and asks for it. Not out of kindness but so that they would stop bothering me.
I do it because if your life is so shitty you need to beg strangers for spare change you need it.
1:25 -1:32
Never give free money to homeless people. They need to earn it.
To be fair, you need something to build on. If you can't even wash yourself and get at least decent clothes, you most likely won't get a job and therefore can't earn money.
If you are in a position to give someone homeless a minor task (like take this broom and sweep the walkway in front of this house), sure, do that. And I'm not arguing about how some, if not most, are using that money for short, quick gratification instead of building something with it. Just saying that not everyone has a clear entry into earning money immediately.
@Makara Exactly If people are unable to work for survival. They are doomed to die. The society is then euthanizing it's able bodied poor. At least decency of the bearers to their wealth see fit that the many cadaver bones don't bleach under the sun... and in the open.
Cyborg -Ninja6922 I disagree charity and kindness are essential for a functional society at least a decent one by the lack of kindness or charity you would have uprisings more theft more killing on the rich imagine this when man is desperate for survival he does desperate things to survive. Don't think there wouldn't be mobs breaking into the prosperous places and looting stealing beating think why does the government give out ssi welfare assistance etc because they would riot to use kindness actually subdues them if it was by providence then we would see only the strongest prosper the job would have little meaning in comparison to the one with the power to make you give all you have to live another day.
@@ExistentHope Well,
Cyborg -Ninja6922 is exaggerating, but there is point. If you really want to feed hungry people - give them fishing rod, not fish. Mindless charity for the sake of charity as ideology can do as much harm as mindless cruelty. That's what Kreia mean in that scene, in a very simple words.
Ditto
Refugees
Kreia is the shit. the lesson is simple. More times than not a person who can properly use a thing is already in possession of the thing. How many mistakes can you make with a force or weapon which you are not used to wielding? A great many
This could go the other way as well, where the guy uses the money to get some capital and maybe becomes a merchant later in the game: www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/040715/what-microlending-and-how-does-it-work.asp
That could work on Onderon, Dantooine, maybe even Coruscant if it's not too deep in the planet. But the conditions on Nar Shaddaa wouldn't allow it.
The issue isn't that the man has no credits, its that he has no way to earn credits. Giving him credits doesn't lift him out of poverty, much like how sending a sandwich to Africa wouldn't solve world hunger.
Instead of trying to solve the main problems in the world, you're just bandaging small wounds. Temporary respite from an already sealed fate
She's so evil lmao
Kreia? How do you mean?
I think this sadly is a big weak part in the game. The idea was great, but the fact you couldn't discuss it with kreia or try to influence made it felt cheap compared to kreia's other lessons
I think this one of her most important lessons. I talk about it in my video Kreia's Conundrums - Charity. The developers could have added more options for outcomes or discussions but they didn't. They were trying to teach the player something, and for that lesson to come across, it had to be black and white.
Ignorance is bliss.
This is the Republican argument against government assistance for the poor in a nutshell.
Um you are sure about that?
@@normaaliihminen722Quite so. “Stop giving away handouts they haven’t earned. Makes them dependent and selfish. Breeds discontent and strife.”
What a hypocrite
Who do you mean?
"What if this kindness leads to this or that?" like fuck me woman why do anything if this woman is just gonna judge you on your actions. She can't even fucking talk either she doesn't even contribute a shred of love to the world she is in and yet professes to know SO MUCH about life and is SO obsessed with being RIGHT.. She is so bitter and can only hope that you do "everything according to her like some weird grandmother watching over you" She chooses to act on many things for various reasons but does she go to herself "Oh my was that really a good idea? Maybe this will lead to doom etc.."
Well she's very old, and she's had a very long time to think about this stuff. Which is probably why she still chews you out if you're cruel to the guy. You can see that here: ruclips.net/video/36-UMwJUuNc/видео.html
The whole scene is just there as an exposition to teach the exile and the player about seeing things the absolutes of black and white.
what if the Exile did the second choice? it's neither compassionate nor kind, hmmm I wonder what would Kreia say to this?
Tony Lee I have a video on that. I also have a video coming out later today that explains the whole scene and what Kreia was trying to teach. Stay tuned.
Libertarian BS
Libertarians aren’t anti-charity.
@@sampeak1605 they oppose most welfare (or totally if they follow Austrian School) and say that "poor are poor because they are lazy", so they wouldn't be precisely charitive
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Don't teach a man how to fish and you feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing isn't that hard.
@@poslednisoud time isn’t so limited that one cannot take time out of their day to help another soul. I can still feed myself and teach. It is after all a choice. Perhaps some may think it’s a waste but I don’t care.
@@chris7285 I work in social services. I spend about 1% of my time helping people who actually need it and 99% giving taxpayer and samaritan money to people who milk the system for all it's worth, maim their children (probably intentionaly but I can't prove it) because they get more support for disabled children and hurt people with actuall troubles simply to keep their own benefits. I learned to recognize who needs help and who needs to fall on their ass to get their shit together.
I miss that shining moment when KotORs were made and there was still a place for philosophy in Star Wars everything before and after is slave morality glorification and dose of nihilism from old sad grumpy Luke in Last Jedi.
If only giving strength to the weak, wisdom to the foolish, or morality to the depraved, were as easy as giving money to the poor.
Many people are missing the point of this interaction. She is not saying that action is bad or that apathy is correct rather that making a choice regarding another person such as charity is impossible to discern as a good or bad action. Your hubris is not enough to truly make that choice for another person, to lessen or widen their burden is something you simply cannot calculate.