*QUICK NOTE* This video is now three years old, and therefore I decided to make a more recent video discussing Jack Kirby's legacy and contribution, in relation to the Fantastic Four's origin. Link: ruclips.net/video/vsMoSBW2ll4/видео.html
In the 70s and 80s I met both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee at many different Comic Books Shops in Los Angeles and they signed many of my comic books. They were both gentlemen and very professional in their demeanor. I got the chance to talk to Jack Kirby about his comic books and he was subdue about his days at Marvel Comics and you could tell that he was sad and disappointed regarding how things turned out. His wife was always at his side being very protective and when he would spend too much time talking with me, she would make a slight comment about moving along and giving some else a chance. She was nice, but very protective of her man. Jack Kirby was always smiling at his fans and explaining how he came up with this idea and that regarding his comics and his memory was great and you could tell he was very knowledgeable and very life experience. Jack Kirby was more an introverted type of personality. While Stan Lee was more out going and vibrant. I will always remember them and the good times so long ago--may they both Rest In Peace with the Lord God-Amen!
A beautiful insight and thank you for sharing. Memories is all we have and telling stories is what has made us what we are today. The more we know about the ppl we love the better. God bless
I recently started reading Jack Kirby biography and I found out that Stan really pulled a low blow move with regards to the silver surfer. This was Jack's creation and have plans for this character. He also had an origin. To Jack, the silver surfer was a being of pure energy as opposed to being a normal man enhanced by the devourer of worlds to be his herald. But Stan not only took Jack's creation and made it all his own, but he also had he audacity of hiring John Buscema to draw the silver surfer boon as opposed to Kirby. After that, Jack's wife advised him to not provide me with any more original characters that aren't a part of the established plot. Or, as she put it, "no more silver surfers." I recently lost respect for Stan after hearing more than one story like this. Jack deserves a lot more recognition than what he got. He even only was able to obtain 80 pages of his original artwork from marvel after drawing for the company for three decades. Douche bags.
The Surfer was an angel created by God. Simple. And, yeah, the concept was hijacked and rewritten by Smilin' Stan. Jack channeled his rage over that into the last issue of the Silver Surfer series, one of the the few things Marvel allowed him to write before he defected to DC, and if you haven't read it, you really should; the subtext gives the story a whole new meaning, lol. Oh, and after a protracted legal battle, Jack eventually got back maybe two-thirds of his artwork; the rest, so the company said, had been shredded, given away, stolen, or simply lost; although it's funny that a lot of those missing pages are in private collections and/or floating about in the dealer universe. As you so aptly phrased it: douchebags.
@@randalwung8715 I read in The Village Voice about Kirby's problems with Marvel that some of his original artwork was being stored in a warehouse at the time, and some of it had been used to clean up spills in the warehouse! Unbelievable!
@@michaelhughes8057 Yeah…one of the things that made Jack the King was how accommodating he was to his fans-dudes would literally come knocking at his door and, next thing you know, Roz would be serving them all sandwiches by the pool, lol. But Roz also looked out for him at conventions, and when he was asked to sign artwork that was clearly among the thousands of missing pages he'd never seen after mailing them out, she’d have to step in and go, "Sorry, Kirby, no can do." Sad.
Both Jack and Stan had a HUGE role in Marvel. Jacks contribution to comics should never be forgotten! Also, his departure did later create THE NEW GODS so its a win win
I think that when you look at the characters that Kirby created without Stan, like the Challengers before Marvel and the Fourth World (especialy Darkseid) afterwards, it is clear that Jack was a huge part of the creation of most Marvel characters. I think Jack was treated unfairly, but that was the way things were done back then, and not just by Stan.
@@firefistdonuts3286 and being 'the face of Marvel' he might have been able to help Jack (and Steve and Wally and...) a little. And even if he couldn't perhaps he should have ditched the '... y'know, to this day, I never knew why Jack (or Steve) left Marvel... That insults everybody's intelligence.
He really was one of a kind. He's very missed and a hero to me and others. Without him there wouldn't be a Marvel. They literally were closing the comic department at timely the day he showed up to their office. They should have given him points/shares of profits he was bringing in.
Kirby did more than Stan Lee, everyone who read anything about this knows it to be true. All Lee did was add words and talk the talk which gave him recognition (also his uncle got him into Marvel). That's why Disney/Marvel settled with the Kirby estate to save Lee's neck since all the old contracts with Kirby doesn't mention him signing away his creations.
You shouldnt even have to say that kirby did more than lee. Kirby obviously did all the art and if you believe cynics like alan moore than kirby wrote all the dialogue next to the panels that stan lee edited. So stan lee potentially only helped kirby storyboard. Kirby probably did most of the storyboarding as well. Stans a well known con man. The king is better than the man.
@@Jose-se9pu Not according to Jack Kirby. Jack Kirby said in The Comics Journal #134 (1990), "I wrote everything I did. I bounced back and forth like a yo-yo between Marvel and DC. I couldn’t do anything about Stan Lee because he was the [Timely/Atlas/Marvel] publisher’s [Martin Goodman's] cousin [in-law and Robbie Solomon's cousin]. I pledged that I would give them [Marvel] the kind of books that would up their sales and keep them in business, and that was my big mistake. Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seen Stan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did. DC would send me scripts, I’d throw them out the window. I had to come up with fresh characters that nobody had seen before [Groot in 1960, Gorgolla in 1960, Grogg in 1961, Fin Fang Foom in 1961]. I always enjoyed doing monster books. I came up with The Fantastic Four [in 1961]. There were always precursors to the Fantastic Four. The science fiction pictures were beginning to break, and I felt that the Challengers of the Unknown [in 1957-1959] were part of that genre. I wrote the Challengers. I came up with Thor [in 1962] (I knew the Thor legends very well), and the Hulk [in 1962], the X-Men [in 1963], and the Avengers [in 1963]. No, I dialogued them. I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue on the back or a description of what was going on. I think Stan has a God complex. I met Stan Lee when I first went to work for Marvel [Timely]. He was a little boy. When Joe [Simon] and I were doing Captain America [1941-1942]. He was about 13 [17] years old. He’s about five years younger than me. I thought Stan Lee was a bother. He’s a guy with a God complex. So I went to DC, and I began creating for them. I took Jimmy Olsen [in 1970] because it was a dog. It didn’t have the sales of Superman, and I felt the best way I could prove myself was taking a book that was slow and speeding up it’s sales."
@@Jose-se9pu There are many early story lines which panels doesn't match the dialogue, early FF issues are best examples. Lee changed the script to whatever he wanted instead of kirby's inital plots
@@Jose-se9pu Maybe. It's things like seeing Stan credited for characters like Dr Strange that (initially) Stan admitted the whole idea was brought to him by Ditko that annoys me. If only Stan had used his 'with great power...' more with the artists.
Nice video. What I would say to anyone truly interested in the great and nebulous "Who did what?" debate and the related question of why Kirby left Marvel, is to track down issues of The Jack Kirby Collector featuring copies of his original pencils from that period (and related articles as well), and to check out any writings by Jack's friend and former assistant Mark Evanier. What you'll see in the pencils is what Jack INTENDED a story to be, with dialogue notes by the panels describing everything that was going on and being said. In fact, toward the end of the Lee/Kirby working relationship (and the same was true of Lee/Ditko) Jack wasn’t even talking to Stan; he’d just mail in completed pages sight unseen so literally ANYONE with half a creative bone in their body could read the notes, add word balloons (which was basically Stan's job at that point), send the pages to the inker and letterer, and put out a kick-ass comic. It was the equivalent of handing someone a fully completed film reel to dub in the dialogue and when the movie comes out they’re billed as "director." Furthermore, Stan would change things that clearly weren't indicated by Kirby; one of the biggest examples being the blatant rewriting of the Silver Surfer, who was intended to be a lifeform created by Galactus but taught to value and understand life by Alicia Masters. ANY artist shoved into that backseat position, when they were the ones who built and kept the car moving, might be just a weeee bit resentful. As for Mark Evanier, he has a wealth of anecdotes on how Jack's mind worked creatively. For those saying, "Hey, maybe toward the end Kirby was doing all the heavy lifting, but what about EARLIER? Stan was way more involved then," here's the deal: Jack Kirby made up stories as he went along. Didn't matter what you talked about, what you wrote or typed out for him, what he said he was gonna do or not do. Evanier said Jack would describe a story to him then write/draw something totally different, and when he was asked about it he'd be like "Really...?" and have no clue he didn't follow his own story and no explanation for the new one. Which is not to say Stan didn’t INFLUENCE Jack. As was discussed in the video, he pushed for a less strong and capable Invisible Girl and would rewrite what was drawn if that wasn’t the case. But eventually this rewriting and reworking became so insulting and hurtful that in his later years on the FF, Jack’s wife would look at what he was drawing and go, “That’s too good for them, Kirby; draw something else and save that for when you leave the company!” Which is exactly what he did. Which explains why the river of wild new concepts and characters that defined the book’s middle years suddenly dried up-something that shouldn’t have happened had Stan Lee been the “writer” and artistic fountainhead so many fans think him to be. Or does someone else have a better explanation? I’m waiting… Anyway, I will happily concede that Stan the Man brought a fun, personable, self-aware “voice” to their stories that was totally engaging and totally SOLD. Big time. But the body, heart, and pumping lifeblood of those best-selling stories came from a short, cigar-smoking, tough-as-nails King from the Lower East Side who, after building one helluva castle, had to get out from under one helluva SHADOW. And guess what? With his name right alongside Mr. Lieber’s at the movies now…he’s finally doing it.
The best argument for Jack Kirby's view is "Name the superheroes that Stan created after Kirby left Marvel." There aren't any. If Stan actually came up with them why couldn't he come up with a single successful idea after Kirby left?
Exactly what I have been saying. After Jack went to work for DC he constructed New Gods, Darkseid and a whole new universe. Lee never had a "successful creative idea" again. To me that's very suspicious.
Don't get mad but John Buscema, and Marv Wolfman created Nova, Sana Amanat, G. Willow Wilson and Adrian Alphona created Ms Marvel and I give you She Hulk for Stan Lee and John Buscema, but how much creativity does it take to make a female version of an already established character? However she was successful so I take back what I said about never having a creative idea again. He had 1. Also in interviews with Jack Kirby, Kirby describes his collaboration with Joe Simon, but never once mentions his collaboration with Stan Lee. Both Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko have said Lee's contribution to Marvel was simply meager. However, I don't agree with that completely, as Stan The Man was a great promoter. He made Marvel popular by promotion only. I just question his creative contribution. Stan, a familial relation with company boss Martin Goodman, was notorious for having his cartoonist come up with plots while adding both his side notes and his signature above his artists as the writer.
Comicboy The Universal Comic god...Yes, Carol Danvers first appeared in Marvel Super Heroes issue 13 (written by Roy Thomas). And she became Ms. Marvel many years after Stan stopped writing (1977). As for "creating" She Hulk, how hard was that to do? One of the lamest origins EVER!!
Jack Kirby was marvel, he created everything that made them famous. Stan lee was just the one who took the credit. Same goes for Steve Ditko. They literally both left for the same reason. Even Alan Moore called it you couldn't how obvious this pattern was in marvel then you haven't been paying attention at all.
I read Kirby's creations all the time. I collect these older marvel comics where ever I find them.Even some D.C. stuff, like Omac, Jack is a master story teller and artist....I hate to pick sides though. Conflicts are just human nature. I try to appreciate both men for bringing us these comic books that were wonderful.
I think the Kirby was right to leave...but he clearly did not have the "social i.q." to traverse difficult relationships with fellow creators and/or editorial...one could imagine better communication and less passive aggressive behavior might have patched things up with Lee and Marvel. Of course this is all conjecture. Without Kirby the marvel universe would be exceedingly different and it might not have taken off as it did--everything we read and watch now has at least of a touch of kirby in it...but without Lee it probably would not have taken off at all. So the two are forever intertwined...
+sleepyreader666 You raise a very interesting point, I think everyone's in agreement that regardless of whose side you're on, it's hard to imagine either Lee or Kirby creating those characters without the other's involvement
He directly asked for things and they would promise to give him the things he asked for. Then when it came time to deliver they would back peddle. Kirby unlike Stan Lee wasn't much of a business man, he should have been setting up contracts to get what he wants, not taking things on peoples word. Kirby was old school like that and it really hurt him financially speaking. Hell they even stole the guys original art work. That was one of the big complaints. Stan Lee really wasn't much of a creator, he really was more of an editor than anything else. Just look the Steve Ditko fiasco or the creation of Galactus.
All great points. The not giving Kirby his original art was criminal...and given the current value of his art you could see that as stealing millions from his family's pockets..though they are more concerned with his legacy, and the orignals are equally important on that level. Yes Lee was probably more an editor than a creator...but he was then the most successful editor of all time, and I'd argue that without his great work as an editor and a voice of Marvel comics very little of what happened in Superhero comics would have gotten off the ground. Again just my speculative opionion.
There was a later period when they were giving artists their work back, but not Kirby. They wouldn't give him his art back unless he signed a special contract giving up all other kinds of legal rights--because they knew how much the Marvel Universe owed him and they wanted to force him into an more airtight release of rights than their old "non-contract" contract contained.
Jack Kirby was a creative genius - a force of nature. He was more than an artist or writer, but an amazing combination of the two plus loads and loads of imagination that resulted in characters and stories galore. Stan Lee was very good at marketing and public relations. He could get people excited about the comics and its characters. Lee was, and is, a charming guy, but a mediocre writer.
I paid money for Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus! From 1 to 4. I especially like his character Orion. What a warrior! The complexity of this guy! I'd like to see Stan Lee attempt this level of imagination. Lee would break under the monumental weight of this magnitude!
Lee and Kirby were the perfect partnership. They had to be different and have clashing philosophies to make the chemistry work. Lee had to reign in Kirby's radical ideas to keep Marvel mainstream, otherwise it would have been for a select audience only. They were bound to fall out, but patched it up again after a spell.
I've always thought of Lee and Kirby as the Lennon/McCartney of the comics world. They could continue to work without each other, but don't expect quite the same magnificence.
Yeah I agree. Everyone views Stan Lee and Lennon as the main source of creativity in the band/comic book writing even though they are terrible people and they steal from everyone around them. McCartney had to make the song "Hey Jude" because Lennon was such a horrible father due to his narcissism that Paul McCartney had to take care of his son more than he did.
@@gaiseric9518 @Gaiseric bruh, jack was more creative and very intelligent in writing a plot for his work and stan was just a mascot. Think about this when jack went to dc comics created the 4th world and it booms while stan keeps on the side line all the writers and artist in marvel just to make him look he made everything in marvel when the truth is it wasn't.
Good video. Thanks for sharing. Searching for Ditko (somewhere here on RUclips) is also enlightening. Stan hates sharing too much of the credit for these characters.
This was a situation where one guy does the all hard work and the other guy gets all the credit, when your a comic book artist you not only know how to draw you have to dominate anatomy, perspectives, shadow, facial expressions and most important of all be a master story teller, Jack proved all that and more when he left to DC and created a whole bunch of heroes and villains that are major characters in the DC universe today. Steve Ditko had the same problem with Stan , and I believe several others.
Lee said himself in the original Galactus plot there was no Silver Surfer. He first saw him drawn into the story and Lee gave him the name. So basically Kirby created the Surfer and but Stan gave him the name. Stan was also gregarious and was presenting to a lot of colleges. Kirby wasn't much of a talker and more of a doer. I kinda think of Stan and Kirby like Ozzy, Tony Iommi, and Geezer Butler from Black Sabbath. Basically everyone in the band followed Iommi's riffs and ideas while Ozzy sung the harmonies (and at times just singing the same notes Iommi was playing), while Geezer cleaned up the lyrics (not to diss Geezer's bass, and Ward's drums which are amazing). Basically Kirby was riffing, Stan following where the story was going and then cleaning the dialogue up. The mainstream sees Black Sabbath as Ozzy's band just as the mainstream views Marvel as Stan Lee's characters, when you know without Iommi there is no Black Sabbath, as you can say the same with Marvel and Jack Kirby.
Mighty Raccoon the dude could speak like slightly slower and be way more understandable. As it is it sounds like words are spilling out of his mouth sometimes rather than being spoken
When Mortal Kombat 2 was in arcades, it inspired me to create a concept for my own fighting game. I drew a robotic ninja and named him Cyclone. I gave him a big metal arm like Cable from the X-Men comics. I also drew a kid wearing a backwards ball cap on and carrying a nightstick. I put the drawings in a big manilla envelope and sent them to the address that Midway had listed on the arcade to send away for the limited edition comic book. All I said in my letter was, "Please make my game." I was ten. MK3 was released sometime afterward. In it, there were several new characters similar to the ones I created, such as Cyrax, a cybernetic ninja very similar to my creation, Cyclone. He was minus the big metal Cable arm though. Jax had returned from MK2, but with a new enhancement, he now had two metal arms. Lastly, there was Stryker, a generic looking cop character with a ball cap and carrying a nightstick very similar to my creation of 'The Kid'. At the time of its release, I didn't think much of it. I just enjoyed it and thought it was cool. They were not exact copies of my work. They were tweaked just enough to be different. As the years went by, I became slightly bitter. Were my ideas used to make money for Midway, Netherrealm, and the MK developers? I did just give them away and told them, "Please make my game." I guess I was naive at ten years old. I thought they would send for me and I would rise to fame and fortune. I was just a kid with no comprehension of how the world works. I believe my ideas were used. There is no proof besides me taking photos of my little brother in character. There is no time stamp on the photos either. I have no legal case. These accusations would not hold up in court. I have reached out to the developers via Twitter, but have not received a response. They tend to post early concept art for their characters and I wonder if they still have mine. Maybe it was just a crazy coincidence they came up with the same ideas, but I doubt it. If you have an idea, guard it with your life. You may think it is stupid, but it might not actually be. People will claim your creation as their own. You will be left in the dust looking like a crazy person who claims they created it, while someone else reaps the rewards.
Stan Lee is to Marvel what Steve Jobs was to Apple. They may not have done everything, but without them, they wouldn't be the multi-million company they are now.
You need a great idea with vision and passion to do what Jack Kirby did. Anyone can sell or advertise a great idea because its a great idea. Stan has the more winning personality that helped sell the idea, so I give him that as far as making Marvel great. But if you follow some of Jack Kirby's interviews, Jack makes it very clear that he was the one who practically did everything, the brainstorming, character designs, plot, everything. Anyone with good grammar knowledge can edit wonderful stories and get all the credit for it. Just a thought.
I have seen many pictures from books, magazines, marvel newsletters, brochures with Kirby at the drawing table.... but no pictures of Stan Lee "adding dialogue"
No it wasn't. It was parasitic. Stan Lee doesn't deserve the credit he gets. He is worse than Steve Jobs in the way he takes from genius people and claims their work for his own. He ruined Steve Ditko's life and he knew he could get away with because Steve Ditko had philosophical ideas that differed from the rest of the comic writers. Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if his real last name was "Goldman."
@@Obscure_man31 No it really isn't. You should show Steve Ditko more respect. Your profile picture wouldn't exist without him. Stan Lee stole his creativity and left him a poor man before his death.
@@gaiseric9518 not really stan lee gave a 1 billion dollar check to Steve Ditko and he refused it he also dossent like taking awards for example when deni Loubert accepted an Inkpot Award on Steve Ditko's behalf (Renegade had published Ditko's World in 1986). Ditko refused the award, phoning Loubert to say, "Awards bleed the artist and make us compete against each other. They are the most horrible things in the world. How dare you accept this on my behalf." At Ditko's behest, Loubert returned the award to the San Diego Comic-Con organizers.
@@jcl5611 not according to the marvel method, stan lee wrote the dialogues based what jack kirby drawn you can see the story through the colorful pages without stan lee's writing
It is a shame that Jack Kirby doesn't get enough credit and is overshadowed by Stan Lee. But to discredit Stan Lee is asinine. Stan Lee had just as much to do with Marvel' success as Jack. Stan was an artistic genius who brought the ideas to Jack who would then draw what Stan visualized in his head. You can't have one without the other. Discrediting Stan Lee is ridiculous! Lee has given Jack Kirby full credit over the years for his artistic abilities.
Yeah. Stan tried to credit a lot of the artists but in the end it all came to him. Non-comicbook fans actually assume he drew the comics too. They all deserve credit, not just from Stan, they deserve it from everyone too.
Jack Kirby and Stan lee needed each other for Marvel comics.Without them Marvel wouldn't be as successful than it is.So both should recieve credit for marvel comics.alongside steve ditko and others.
Great share as a collaborator on a piece (I can mention because of anonymity), I had to leave a project. A writer gave me a character he wanted me to design. He offered no imput on the appearance of the character sure he created the story of the character, but the design was all me. I approached him about sharing the visual property, but he wasn't having it. So I took my drawings and resigned from the project. He is working with someone else now. But till this day it hasn't gotten off the ground.
If putting stupid words in the word balloons cites you as a creator, then Stan Lee can claim something. But every sane comic book reader is full aware of Stan's limitations, just look at everything he smeared his name on after Ditko and Kirby. Its all pure garbage.
+مصطفى اسعد Thanks man! If you can, I really recommend going back and reading some of the Lee/Kirby stories, you'll be able to find reprints of the original F4/X-Men, which are great!
Jack couldnt writte, just as Stan couldnt draw. They are both equally responsable for the creation of the Marvel Universe. It is a shame their egos were so big they were always clashing, because by the end of the day, Jack left Marvel because he wanted his name above Stan's, which is a ridiculous reason to quit.
Do you know what the Marvel Method is? Stan Lee didn't work with full scripts like they do in companies like DC, Stan Lee didn't have time to full script, he just came with some ideas of the story and let artists a total freedom to create what they wanted to create, even completing the story and creating new characters for the story. Stan Lee sometimes didn't even know what plot of the story or new character Jack Kirby was gonna to deliver him. Jack Kirby not only drew the 100% of the artwork but also contributed with the 50% or more of the story. The credits should have been.... Writers: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby. Artists: Jack Kirby. Stan Lee took advantage of his position in Marvel as the editor-in-chief to make himself appear as the solo writer. He knew that "little" detail would gave him more credit and protagonism than their co-workers. With that detail the characters Jack Kirby created by his own were attributed to Stan Lee because the WRITER thing. Or the "Stan Lee Presents...." intro in each comic. More recently, Stan Lee himself admitted Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko were writers themselves, but they wrote with pictures.
Also, said to say, Jack Kirby was more of an comicbook artist than a businessman, and that's why what happened to him at Marvel occurred. Also, I read in The Village Voice in an article about Kirby that when he went over to DC, he later had problems, perhaps not as bad as @ Marvel, with DC too!
Marvel's Lee/Kirby is very much like D&D's Gygax/Arneson when it comes to recognition. Gary Gygax gets all the credit when without Arneson's contributions, Dungeons and Dragons would not be the game we know today. Same is true with Kirby. Because his contributions were in the background, Lee was able to claim the lion's share of the credit.
It's funny how Sue says she is trained in Judo while doing a strike on Dr.Doom. Judo does not have strikes. It's all throws and chokes and elbow locks.
Owen Likes Comics I got it the older stuff which i really enjoyed but The Challengers were one of the few New 52 redesigns i thought were great, no matter how short lived they were.
My family jokes we all got our talent from Jack I see alot of family memebers follow in his footsteps when I was young I to started creating my own superheros but sadly he never got the credit tell after he died, but I keep his characters alive through my Cosplay and encourge my kids to never stop creating in Honor of Jack. to continue the Kirby name.
stan is the face, jack is the soul, however i feel jacks influence is more cosmetic in nature. and hiss arguments with lee on plot points i find petty, HOWEVER in alot of those arguments he was right, this does not mean however that he had the right to alter narrative flow. im left feeling conflicted about the whole thing. i think ill just go back to admiring the final product they made together,
+Mopee Dc I think that's a solid analogy. Jack and Stan seem like pretty hard headed guys, so it's no surprise they came into conflict so frequently. They're both amazingly creative minds, who proved they could write terrific stories both together and separate.
Kirby (as well as other Marvel artists, more or less) did more of the actual STORYTELLING or PLOTTING in the art than given credit. You mentioned the Silver Surfer v. Thing plot Lee envisioned with Dr.Doom fighting the FF elsewhere. Kirby might have changed it and expanded on Lee's idea by later having The Surfer meet Dr.Doom 2 issues later after his fight with Ben, which led to the Doom Steals The Silver Surfer's powers epic! Another example is the Challengers of The Unknown story (Issue #3) where one of the members went on an experimental space flight where he learned that the space radiation had given him super powers. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it?) The problem was, Jack was being paid for the artwork but apparently got nothing for his plotting, financially or creatively! Most readers assumed Stan wrote everything related to the story! Steve Ditko demanded a Co Plotter credit and got it, but did that equal more money? DC promised Jack more control and an editorial position, regarding his own books, but did he ever ask for a Co Plotter credit at Marvel, which included extra income? If not, Kirby made the right decision!
Theirs a lot of info about this in the book "marvel the untold story" pretty interesting stuff. It also appeared that his return to marvel didn't go over well and was worse than the tension in the 60s.
I can understand Kirby's disenchantment and wanting to prove he could go it alone, but did he achieve it though? I think the answer is more like yes and no. The truth is, that while Lee relied so much on Kirby at Marvel, he was an asset to him. He took a substantial amount of the workload from him, by doing the actual writing, but more to the point, he possesed superb script writing skills, that Kirby, as evinced by his abysmal inability to be able to do so at DC, clearly did not. While you can admire his art and conceptual brilliance on "New Gods", he had clearly taken on too much in the creation of a series of comics, with the added responsibility to add realistic depth to the plots and characters by having to do the scripting as well, an area in which he was clearly lacking. Could you honestly imagine what it would have been like at Marvel, if he'd been allowed to do it there? Lee devised the method that allowed Kirby and others, full licence to plot and write comics in pictures, so of course it was his fault. It was also his fault if he didn't like it then. The fact that so much of the thinking was done by Kirby for instance, is attributable to his insistance that the artist would be responsible so much, so it's not surprising that Kirby played such a dominating role. It was understandable in the fast paced buisness of comics though, where everything had to be produced quickly on a monthly basis. It wasn't feasible for one person to keep coming-up with new ideas so quickly in such a limited space of time, so a co-partner was essential. It took the strain off both men. The full contribution that each man gave in his respective profession, to the Marvel comics at the time, is something of a Chinese puzzle however. While Kirby was indispensible to what might be called Lee's master plan to create original comics, Lee did, as I've said, have sharp authorial skills, so why shouldn't he have been able to create storylines on his own, even while he had to rely on Kirby's help and the limited time space in which he was forced to produce? Of course, he did have some ideas, it's well known, which Kirby ultimately brought to life, but eventually, Lee did work with other artists, where he did prove to an extent at least, he could work without him, and his full writing skills came to the fore. Lee did conceive of the original concept apparently for the Galactus character, but the accompaning Silver Surfer was Kirby's idea. Was it unfair then that Kirby wasn't allowed to do the art and plotting when the "Silver Surfer" magazine was launched? I suppose you could say yes for a character he had conceived first, as he probably already had plans arranged for it's inception, but once again, there seems to be no definite answers. By this time, both men were probably already stifling each other, and Lee had always had his personal ambitions to be a writer, and wanted to prove that he could work alone. It was understandable that he wanted his own space away from the freeways he had allowed Kirby to create. While it would have been interesting to have seen how Kirby would have conceived the origin of the Silver Surfer and handled the actual magazine, even with Lee's superb expertise with dialogue and characterisation, it would not have been the same. Kirby would have turned any ideas Lee had into something other than what was a magazine different to anything that had been done in comics before. The Silver Surfer's character was developed beyond what he had been in the "Fantastic Four". He came to the fore working on his own, for what was and probably still is his greatest work. John Buscema's realistic style suited the mood and themes of the magazine in a way that merged perfectly with Lee's stories, that Kirby's particular style would never have achieved. Kirby had been one of the principle architects at Marvel, and I haven't meant to sound negative about him, and as I've said, Lee couldn't have done without him, but I think what I've said, is fair to both men. Kirby probably was right to leave Marvel in regards to his lack of recognition for what he'd been allowed to do, and it's reasonable to assume he wanted his own space, but whether he was better on his own at DC, isn't easy to say. It seems difficult to be objective about this.
Lee doesn't think of characters like Halactus out mutants, those mythical and scientific elements in comics are foreign to the mind of smiley. He just took credit for everybody's work and creation, a real leech.
The more I hear, the more I see, the more I read, I'm a big believer in they just made the work together. It was problematic, fluid, fractious, complicated but they reached a point of synergy that was unparalleled. If Marvel had only been Jack Kirby, it wouldn't have gotten as big as Marvel did. Jack Kirby is great, the greatest -- but Stan Lee completed him in a way that no one else did. Even if you say most of the Fantastic Four is Jack, without Stan, they simply don't reach the heights that they reached. Stan Lee was wrong for how much he used the word "I". He's wrong for that. But just because he exaggerated his contribution doesn't mean his contribution wasn't integral. Nothing Kirby ever did without Lee ever had the same impact as the Fantastic Four, Thor, the Avengers, the X-Men, etc. That means something. It doesn't mean it's all Stan but it does mean that act of creation is a mysterious, wonderful thing and in a collaborative art form, maybe it doesn't matter where one ends and the other begins as much as the final product. And I thank God for the work these two men did together. I wish it had been easier for them both.
+BeirutWedding Captain America was made in 1941 almost 2 decades before Stan Lee got involved in the comic books from comic book/creative Mavel. Kirby was the sole original creator of the captain America character.
@@IntheClutch75 What about Darkseid ? What about the Eternals? Marvel Studios is planning to release a movie of these characters and Angelina Jolie is a prospect. 😉
Kirby was pissed because he didn’t get exposure and credit he wanted. Yet he kept coming back to Marvel and Stan…..No offense, but Kirby’s “solo” work wasn’t great…..Eternals and New Gods were rough and Eternals wasn’t popular at all.
Kirby was more interested in making Cosmic/God-related characters. Literally take a look at most of the characters Jack Kirby has sole credit for creating and you realize it's mostly just Cosmic/God-related characters. Stan was interested in making people with human struggles while being superheroes. Stan was the substance and Kirby was the style for the characters they made.
Kirby left Marvel because he got a pay cut from the owners of Marvel. Kirby wanted a contract and he went over Stan's head. The contract was less than what Kirby was making so he left. That's why it was a total surprised to Stan. DC had a nice contract for him with an editorial credit to go with it.
Both Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko we're never given the credit for their contributions to the Marvel universe. Stan Lee may have had the concepts but the artists brought them to life!
Stan Lee did say something like that in an interview But Stan and Steve diko do disagree on who created spider man Stan came up with the concept so I have to give it to Stan bit he couldn't have done it without him
Stan Lee writing is extremely good compared to a lot of other writers...that being said I think art is more important when selling comics. Kirby did the more important part imo.
I disagree, i wont buy a comic for fantastic art if the story is pure shit, but i also wont buy a great story with shit art, its 50/50 neither make up for the lack of the other
Jack was actually a free lancer so he was going back and forth with marvel he wanted recognition but didn’t like publicity he never had a problem with Stan it was just the fans of the time who kept giving the credit to Stan me personally I give credit to both Stan and Jack for all the amazing characters they created
Well informative Owen, thing is though...after leaving Marvel both Kirby and Lee never scaled the creative heights they did in the 60's. Without each other's input they seemed to flounder. Stan obviously reigned in some of Jack's over the top concepts and Jack brought Stan's "plot lines" to life. I know in interviews with Roz and Jack they slammed Stan about not having created anything since Jack left Marvel but I don't think either of them got over the creative split. Jack was right to leave Marvel, look at what happened creatively with the publisher after he departed...another video on the state of marvel on the Marvel in the early 70's perhaps?
+john nuttall Thanks John, Happy Birthday! I think you're correct about the idea that Stan and Jack separate couldn't replicate the success they had together. Lee's post-Kirby work never had the same spark (not counting the early Spider-Man, which I give Ditko and Romita Sr a lot of credit to), and Kirby's Forth World was a great concept, but didn't have the emotional connection that his work with Lee did. Marvel in the 70's is definitely something I want to discuss eventually!
Lee and Kirby are like Lennon and McCartney. Both great individually, super, if different, talents. But when together they were just on another planet. Bringing out the very best in each other.
Stan was a businessman , he knew how to sell the products but Kirby created the product which was art . You cant sell something without the artist and the two butted heads . Kirby's art blossomed in the mid 60s look at the early 60s and compare it . Kirby was the real man and stan was the man .
They were excellent collaborators. How’s that. These quibbles are rampant between people who ought to appreciate what they achieved together. How cool would it have been for Lee and Ditko to attend the first screening of Spider Man together.
How anyone can say in all sincerity that Kirby was a bad storyteller and copywriter is beyond me. All of the work he did on his own has fantastic dialogue and brilliant pacing. Whereas Stan created a sort of artificial lingo for comics that stuck. I am not saying that I do not appreciate the effect that it can have, but it is NOT, definitely not, well written dialogue.
Dan Gh. Putting my 2 cents into this. My main problem with Jack the Hack's storytelling (going by reading his whole run on the Demon and OMAC, along with 5 issues of Devil Dinosaur) is his characterization falls flat on the verbal side. Almost all of Jack's character's talk the same which made the character's come off more bland and boring. The way he portraits personality verbally is hit or miss too. Sometimes he can have hits like Etrigan who is verbally shown to be while cocky and full of himself, displays an unyielding trust and loyalty to Merlin. Other times he can have misses like Jason Blood's friend who is a girl who is so forgettable and bland that I forgot her name while writing this and she is the one who helps save Jason Blood at the end. There's another issue that bothered me and that was fact that often when the art in the panel displays all the information need, there's always a character or caption that says the obvious. My overall thoughts on him as a storyteller was that he was okay. Had strengths, like pacing and art. Had weaknesses like the ones I said above. PS: I didn't actually meant it when I said Jack the Hack. I actually like Kirby alot. (This comment down below was to see if you paid attention to the whole reply before commenting)
To me their relationship was like the relationship Matt Stone and Trey Parker have now. One does do or did more than the other, but without their partner they wouldn’t have gotten anywhere. They needed each other, even if one could do great on their own it would never match the success they had when they worked together. RIP Stan “The Man” Lee and RIP Jack “The King” Kirby
Conor Charlton this is actually a really old video, one where I clearly hadn't figured out audio mixing as well as I have now. If you want to watch a similar video on Kirby, have a look for my 2 part Fantastic Four series - you may enjoy that! Thanks
How ironic that many of the original character Jack so call created in Marvel's silver age where actually reworked characters either created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby or created by Joe Simon alone. A little fact is Jack was enticed by Marvel to lie and sign a contract saying that he and Simon were paid employs of Timely there for giving Marvel exclusive rights to Captain America and assuring Kirby unlimited comic book work at the company. In reality the property legally belonged to Joe Simon but most people don't want to know this truth.
who created DC's Thor and Challengers of the Unknown? I get Captain America and The Fly were originally by Joe Simon but what other characters Jack Kirby worked on Beside Spiderman and Captain America that was reworked from joe simon's?
@@AliFareedMC not true. The silver age Vision was taken from Joe Simon's Timely Vision character. The pose from Avengers 57 is an exact copy of the golden age character. You really need to do the research before making statements. I'm a real close friend of Joe Simon's grandson. He has schooled on everything Joe Simon.
I agree that Jack Kirby should have been the real face of MARVEL comics instead of Stan Lee cause thats just not right for him to not have all the credit that he earned over the years and taken all away from just like that!
Stan Lee was made famous because of his cameos tricking people who only watch movies that he created all the Marvel Heroes (and in weird case they also say DC) while Jack Kirby is famous because he is the King of comics
Stan was publicly promoting Marvel since the 70s before the movies made them huge. Stan is the biggest promoter for his comic book characters more than any comic book writer or artist and you know it.
Hey Wes, this is a bit of an old video. You'd be happy to hear I've hugely upgraded my equipment and software since then haha, check out some of our latest videos and see what you think!
Without jack Kirby there would. Be a marvel comic's but without a doubt. Marvel comic's would had folded. Month's later, like all the other comic. Company's did during that time. Mr Kirby pulled stan lee,s ass out of the fire and helped him create what rhe world is enjoying. Mr kirbys brilliance today but he was shafted by a lot of. Crooked men that worked at marve comics he deserved much much. More than he received from them. And his family need to be compensated from their father's hard work and creativity the marvel universe would not exist without mr Kirby PERIOD!!!!!!!!!
*QUICK NOTE* This video is now three years old, and therefore I decided to make a more recent video discussing Jack Kirby's legacy and contribution, in relation to the Fantastic Four's origin.
Link: ruclips.net/video/vsMoSBW2ll4/видео.html
Owen Likes Comics Kirby's imagination knew no bounds.
In the 70s and 80s I met both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee at many different Comic Books Shops in Los Angeles and they signed many of my comic books. They were both gentlemen and very professional in their demeanor. I got the chance to talk to Jack Kirby about his comic books and he was subdue about his days at Marvel Comics and you could tell that he was sad and disappointed regarding how things turned out. His wife was always at his side being very protective and when he would spend too much time talking with me, she would make a slight comment about moving along and giving some else a chance. She was nice, but very protective of her man. Jack Kirby was always smiling at his fans and explaining how he came up with this idea and that regarding his comics and his memory was great and you could tell he was very knowledgeable and very life experience. Jack Kirby was more an introverted type of personality. While Stan Lee was more out going and vibrant. I will always remember them and the good times so long ago--may they both Rest In Peace with the Lord God-Amen!
A beautiful insight and thank you for sharing. Memories is all we have and telling stories is what has made us what we are today. The more we know about the ppl we love the better. God bless
@@St.petersEye I met Jack Kirby and Don Heck.
@@luismangiaterra1031 a moment to hold on to forever.
@@luismangiaterra1031 Luis you are very lucky and blessed person, meeting two giants and creators in the comicbook field!
Jack Kirby Created Marvel.
Long Live King Kirby
I recently started reading Jack Kirby biography and I found out that Stan really pulled a low blow move with regards to the silver surfer. This was Jack's creation and have plans for this character. He also had an origin. To Jack, the silver surfer was a being of pure energy as opposed to being a normal man enhanced by the devourer of worlds to be his herald. But Stan not only took Jack's creation and made it all his own, but he also had he audacity of hiring John Buscema to draw the silver surfer boon as opposed to Kirby. After that, Jack's wife advised him to not provide me with any more original characters that aren't a part of the established plot. Or, as she put it, "no more silver surfers." I recently lost respect for Stan after hearing more than one story like this. Jack deserves a lot more recognition than what he got. He even only was able to obtain 80 pages of his original artwork from marvel after drawing for the company for three decades. Douche bags.
The Surfer was an angel created by God. Simple. And, yeah, the concept was hijacked and rewritten by Smilin' Stan. Jack channeled his rage over that into the last issue of the Silver Surfer series, one of the the few things Marvel allowed him to write before he defected to DC, and if you haven't read it, you really should; the subtext gives the story a whole new meaning, lol. Oh, and after a protracted legal battle, Jack eventually got back maybe two-thirds of his artwork; the rest, so the company said, had been shredded, given away, stolen, or simply lost; although it's funny that a lot of those missing pages are in private collections and/or floating about in the dealer universe. As you so aptly phrased it: douchebags.
@@randalwung8715 I read in The Village Voice about Kirby's problems with Marvel that some of his original artwork was being stored in a warehouse at the time, and some of it had been used to clean up spills in the warehouse! Unbelievable!
@@michaelhughes8057 Yeah…one of the things that made Jack the King was how accommodating he was to his fans-dudes would literally come knocking at his door and, next thing you know, Roz would be serving them all sandwiches by the pool, lol. But Roz also looked out for him at conventions, and when he was asked to sign artwork that was clearly among the thousands of missing pages he'd never seen after mailing them out, she’d have to step in and go, "Sorry, Kirby, no can do." Sad.
Hello, may I know the name of the biography? Is it a book?
@@randax8518 Jack Kirby: The Epic Life of the King of Comics by Tom Scioli. Graphic novel format.
Both Jack and Stan had a HUGE role in Marvel. Jacks contribution to comics should never be forgotten! Also, his departure did later create THE NEW GODS so its a win win
I think that when you look at the characters that Kirby created without Stan, like the Challengers before Marvel and the Fourth World (especialy Darkseid) afterwards, it is clear that Jack was a huge part of the creation of most Marvel characters. I think Jack was treated unfairly, but that was the way things were done back then, and not just by Stan.
doesn't make it right
stan doesn t own marvel comics he was just it s face
@@firefistdonuts3286 and being 'the face of Marvel' he might have been able to help Jack (and Steve and Wally and...) a little. And even if he couldn't perhaps he should have ditched the '... y'know, to this day, I never knew why Jack (or Steve) left Marvel... That insults everybody's intelligence.
@@petermcgill1315 he was an asshole
Stan Lee is innocent
sounds like Jack did most of the work, but both are good in their own different ways.
He really was one of a kind. He's very missed and a hero to me and others. Without him there wouldn't be a Marvel. They literally were closing the comic department at timely the day he showed up to their office. They should have given him points/shares of profits he was bringing in.
Kirby did more than Stan Lee, everyone who read anything about this knows it to be true. All Lee did was add words and talk the talk which gave him recognition (also his uncle got him into Marvel). That's why Disney/Marvel settled with the Kirby estate to save Lee's neck since all the old contracts with Kirby doesn't mention him signing away his creations.
You shouldnt even have to say that kirby did more than lee. Kirby obviously did all the art and if you believe cynics like alan moore than kirby wrote all the dialogue next to the panels that stan lee edited. So stan lee potentially only helped kirby storyboard. Kirby probably did most of the storyboarding as well. Stans a well known con man. The king is better than the man.
Stan wrote the original sypnosis for the stories, and came up with the ideas for the character.
@@Jose-se9pu Not according to Jack Kirby. Jack Kirby said in The Comics Journal #134 (1990), "I wrote everything I did. I bounced back and forth like a yo-yo between Marvel and DC. I couldn’t do anything about Stan Lee because he was the [Timely/Atlas/Marvel] publisher’s [Martin Goodman's] cousin [in-law and Robbie Solomon's cousin]. I pledged that I would give them [Marvel] the kind of books that would up their sales and keep them in business, and that was my big mistake. Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seen Stan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did. DC would send me scripts, I’d throw them out the window. I had to come up with fresh characters that nobody had seen before [Groot in 1960, Gorgolla in 1960, Grogg in 1961, Fin Fang Foom in 1961]. I always enjoyed doing monster books. I came up with The Fantastic Four [in 1961]. There were always precursors to the Fantastic Four. The science fiction pictures were beginning to break, and I felt that the Challengers of the Unknown [in 1957-1959] were part of that genre. I wrote the Challengers. I came up with Thor [in 1962] (I knew the Thor legends very well), and the Hulk [in 1962], the X-Men [in 1963], and the Avengers [in 1963]. No, I dialogued them. I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue on the back or a description of what was going on. I think Stan has a God complex. I met Stan Lee when I first went to work for Marvel [Timely]. He was a little boy. When Joe [Simon] and I were doing Captain America [1941-1942]. He was about 13 [17] years old. He’s about five years younger than me. I thought Stan Lee was a bother. He’s a guy with a God complex. So I went to DC, and I began creating for them. I took Jimmy Olsen [in 1970] because it was a dog. It didn’t have the sales of Superman, and I felt the best way I could prove myself was taking a book that was slow and speeding up it’s sales."
@@Jose-se9pu There are many early story lines which panels doesn't match the dialogue, early FF issues are best examples. Lee changed the script to whatever he wanted instead of kirby's inital plots
@@Jose-se9pu Maybe. It's things like seeing Stan credited for characters like Dr Strange that (initially) Stan admitted the whole idea was brought to him by Ditko that annoys me. If only Stan had used his 'with great power...' more with the artists.
If this guy lived long enough, he would've been widely recognized like Stan Lee
Jack Kirby brought alot of us Marvel fans over to DC to read his comics, Like Kamandi, The New Gods, Mister Miracle, etc. Loved Jack.
Nice video. What I would say to anyone truly interested in the great and nebulous "Who did what?" debate and the related question of why Kirby left Marvel, is to track down issues of The Jack Kirby Collector featuring copies of his original pencils from that period (and related articles as well), and to check out any writings by Jack's friend and former assistant Mark Evanier. What you'll see in the pencils is what Jack INTENDED a story to be, with dialogue notes by the panels describing everything that was going on and being said. In fact, toward the end of the Lee/Kirby working relationship (and the same was true of Lee/Ditko) Jack wasn’t even talking to Stan; he’d just mail in completed pages sight unseen so literally ANYONE with half a creative bone in their body could read the notes, add word balloons (which was basically Stan's job at that point), send the pages to the inker and letterer, and put out a kick-ass comic. It was the equivalent of handing someone a fully completed film reel to dub in the dialogue and when the movie comes out they’re billed as "director." Furthermore, Stan would change things that clearly weren't indicated by Kirby; one of the biggest examples being the blatant rewriting of the Silver Surfer, who was intended to be a lifeform created by Galactus but taught to value and understand life by Alicia Masters. ANY artist shoved into that backseat position, when they were the ones who built and kept the car moving, might be just a weeee bit resentful.
As for Mark Evanier, he has a wealth of anecdotes on how Jack's mind worked creatively. For those saying, "Hey, maybe toward the end Kirby was doing all the heavy lifting, but what about EARLIER? Stan was way more involved then," here's the deal: Jack Kirby made up stories as he went along. Didn't matter what you talked about, what you wrote or typed out for him, what he said he was gonna do or not do. Evanier said Jack would describe a story to him then write/draw something totally different, and when he was asked about it he'd be like "Really...?" and have no clue he didn't follow his own story and no explanation for the new one. Which is not to say Stan didn’t INFLUENCE Jack. As was discussed in the video, he pushed for a less strong and capable Invisible Girl and would rewrite what was drawn if that wasn’t the case. But eventually this rewriting and reworking became so insulting and hurtful that in his later years on the FF, Jack’s wife would look at what he was drawing and go, “That’s too good for them, Kirby; draw something else and save that for when you leave the company!” Which is exactly what he did. Which explains why the river of wild new concepts and characters that defined the book’s middle years suddenly dried up-something that shouldn’t have happened had Stan Lee been the “writer” and artistic fountainhead so many fans think him to be. Or does someone else have a better explanation? I’m waiting…
Anyway, I will happily concede that Stan the Man brought a fun, personable, self-aware “voice” to their stories that was totally engaging and totally SOLD. Big time. But the body, heart, and pumping lifeblood of those best-selling stories came from a short, cigar-smoking, tough-as-nails King from the Lower East Side who, after building one helluva castle, had to get out from under one helluva SHADOW. And guess what? With his name right alongside Mr. Lieber’s at the movies now…he’s finally doing it.
The best argument for Jack Kirby's view is "Name the superheroes that Stan created after Kirby left Marvel." There aren't any. If Stan actually came up with them why couldn't he come up with a single successful idea after Kirby left?
Exactly what I have been saying. After Jack went to work for DC he constructed New Gods, Darkseid and a whole new universe. Lee never had a "successful creative idea" again. To me that's very suspicious.
Bull shit stan lee made a lot of new heros when jack left he made she hulk nova. Ms marvel to name a few
Don't get mad but John Buscema, and Marv Wolfman created Nova, Sana Amanat, G. Willow Wilson and Adrian Alphona created Ms Marvel and I give you She Hulk for Stan Lee and John Buscema, but how much creativity does it take to make a female version of an already established character? However she was successful so I take back what I said about never having a creative idea again. He had 1.
Also in interviews with Jack Kirby, Kirby describes his collaboration with Joe Simon, but never once mentions his collaboration with Stan Lee. Both Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko have said Lee's contribution to Marvel was simply meager. However, I don't agree with that completely, as Stan The Man was a great promoter. He made Marvel popular by promotion only. I just question his creative contribution. Stan, a familial relation with company boss Martin Goodman, was notorious for having his cartoonist come up with plots while adding both his side notes and his signature above his artists as the writer.
larry potter Carol Danvers was the Ms.Marvel before Kamala.
Comicboy The Universal Comic god...Yes, Carol Danvers first appeared in Marvel Super Heroes issue 13 (written by Roy Thomas). And she became Ms. Marvel many years after Stan stopped writing (1977). As for "creating" She Hulk, how hard was that to do? One of the lamest origins EVER!!
Jack Kirby was marvel, he created everything that made them famous. Stan lee was just the one who took the credit. Same goes for Steve Ditko. They literally both left for the same reason. Even Alan Moore called it you couldn't how obvious this pattern was in marvel then you haven't been paying attention at all.
I read Kirby's creations all the time. I collect these older marvel comics where ever I find them.Even some D.C. stuff, like Omac, Jack is a master story teller and artist....I hate to pick sides though. Conflicts are just human nature. I try to appreciate both men for bringing us these comic books that were wonderful.
I think the Kirby was right to leave...but he clearly did not have the "social i.q." to traverse difficult relationships with fellow creators and/or editorial...one could imagine better communication and less passive aggressive behavior might have patched things up with Lee and Marvel. Of course this is all conjecture. Without Kirby the marvel universe would be exceedingly different and it might not have taken off as it did--everything we read and watch now has at least of a touch of kirby in it...but without Lee it probably would not have taken off at all. So the two are forever intertwined...
+sleepyreader666 You raise a very interesting point, I think everyone's in agreement that regardless of whose side you're on, it's hard to imagine either Lee or Kirby creating those characters without the other's involvement
He directly asked for things and they would promise to give him the things he asked for. Then when it came time to deliver they would back peddle. Kirby unlike Stan Lee wasn't much of a business man, he should have been setting up contracts to get what he wants, not taking things on peoples word. Kirby was old school like that and it really hurt him financially speaking. Hell they even stole the guys original art work. That was one of the big complaints. Stan Lee really wasn't much of a creator, he really was more of an editor than anything else. Just look the Steve Ditko fiasco or the creation of Galactus.
All great points. The not giving Kirby his original art was criminal...and given the current value of his art you could see that as stealing millions from his family's pockets..though they are more concerned with his legacy, and the orignals are equally important on that level.
Yes Lee was probably more an editor than a creator...but he was then the most successful editor of all time, and I'd argue that without his great work as an editor and a voice of Marvel comics very little of what happened in Superhero comics would have gotten off the ground. Again just my speculative opionion.
Back in those days, NOBODY got back their art,and a single page from superboy 200, cost dc dave Cochrum, cause thats all he asked for, ONE page back.
There was a later period when they were giving artists their work back, but not Kirby. They wouldn't give him his art back unless he signed a special contract giving up all other kinds of legal rights--because they knew how much the Marvel Universe owed him and they wanted to force him into an more airtight release of rights than their old "non-contract" contract contained.
Jack Kirby was a creative genius - a force of nature. He was more than an artist or writer, but an amazing combination of the two plus loads and loads of imagination that resulted in characters and stories galore. Stan Lee was very good at marketing and public relations. He could get people excited about the comics and its characters. Lee was, and is, a charming guy, but a mediocre writer.
I paid money for Jack Kirby's Fourth World Omnibus! From 1 to 4. I especially like his character Orion. What a warrior! The complexity of this guy! I'd like to see Stan Lee attempt this level of imagination. Lee would break under the monumental weight of this magnitude!
I just got mines last week
Many thanks for the video. Really appreciated giving to Kirby what is due to that creative powerhouse.
Lee and Kirby were the perfect partnership. They had to be different and have clashing philosophies to make the chemistry work. Lee had to reign in Kirby's radical ideas to keep Marvel mainstream, otherwise it would have been for a select audience only. They were bound to fall out, but patched it up again after a spell.
I've always thought of Lee and Kirby as the Lennon/McCartney of the comics world. They could continue to work without each other, but don't expect quite the same magnificence.
Yeah I agree. Everyone views Stan Lee and Lennon as the main source of creativity in the band/comic book writing even though they are terrible people and they steal from everyone around them. McCartney had to make the song "Hey Jude" because Lennon was such a horrible father due to his narcissism that Paul McCartney had to take care of his son more than he did.
@@gaiseric9518 @Gaiseric bruh, jack was more creative and very intelligent in writing a plot for his work and stan was just a mascot. Think about this when jack went to dc comics created the 4th world and it booms while stan keeps on the side line all the writers and artist in marvel just to make him look he made everything in marvel when the truth is it wasn't.
@@DanteAlighieri612 Did you not read what I wrote. That’s exactly what I was saying both stan lee and John Lennon were hacks.
@@gaiseric9518 I wouldn't have called stan a terrible person though.
@@gaiseric9518 smiley didn't create those characters or write any of those comics, he just took the credit for it. He was a real leech.
Kirby a man giant in art and in comics. T shirts and posters needed. Thank you Jack.
Stan Lee = Bob Kane
Jack Kirby = Bill Finger
Good video. Thanks for sharing. Searching for Ditko (somewhere here on RUclips) is also enlightening. Stan hates sharing too much of the credit for these characters.
This was a situation where one guy does the all hard work and the other guy gets all the credit, when your a comic book artist you not only know how to draw you have to dominate anatomy, perspectives, shadow, facial expressions and most important of all be a master story teller, Jack proved all that and more when he left to DC and created a whole bunch of heroes and villains that are major characters in the DC universe today. Steve Ditko had the same problem with Stan , and I believe several others.
Hail to the king, baby!
Lee said himself in the original Galactus plot there was no Silver Surfer. He first saw him drawn into the story and Lee gave him the name. So basically Kirby created the Surfer and but Stan gave him the name. Stan was also gregarious and was presenting to a lot of colleges. Kirby wasn't much of a talker and more of a doer.
I kinda think of Stan and Kirby like Ozzy, Tony Iommi, and Geezer Butler from Black Sabbath. Basically everyone in the band followed Iommi's riffs and ideas while Ozzy sung the harmonies (and at times just singing the same notes Iommi was playing), while Geezer cleaned up the lyrics (not to diss Geezer's bass, and Ward's drums which are amazing). Basically Kirby was riffing, Stan following where the story was going and then cleaning the dialogue up. The mainstream sees Black Sabbath as Ozzy's band just as the mainstream views Marvel as Stan Lee's characters, when you know without Iommi there is no Black Sabbath, as you can say the same with Marvel and Jack Kirby.
👏👏👏
This would be far more interesting and understandable if the narrator would enunciate more clearly.
lmao
i literally couldnt stand the whole vid
subtitle was the savior though
Mighty Raccoon the dude could speak like slightly slower and be way more understandable. As it is it sounds like words are spilling out of his mouth sometimes rather than being spoken
Sounded like fiddle faddle. I couldn't follow the narrator. His inflections were on the wrong syllables.
long live THE KING!
When Mortal Kombat 2 was in arcades, it inspired me to create a concept for my own fighting game. I drew a robotic ninja and named him Cyclone. I gave him a big metal arm like Cable from the X-Men comics. I also drew a kid wearing a backwards ball cap on and carrying a nightstick. I put the drawings in a big manilla envelope and sent them to the address that Midway had listed on the arcade to send away for the limited edition comic book. All I said in my letter was, "Please make my game." I was ten. MK3 was released sometime afterward. In it, there were several new characters similar to the ones I created, such as Cyrax, a cybernetic ninja very similar to my creation, Cyclone. He was minus the big metal Cable arm though. Jax had returned from MK2, but with a new enhancement, he now had two metal arms. Lastly, there was Stryker, a generic looking cop character with a ball cap and carrying a nightstick very similar to my creation of 'The Kid'. At the time of its release, I didn't think much of it. I just enjoyed it and thought it was cool. They were not exact copies of my work. They were tweaked just enough to be different. As the years went by, I became slightly bitter. Were my ideas used to make money for Midway, Netherrealm, and the MK developers? I did just give them away and told them, "Please make my game." I guess I was naive at ten years old. I thought they would send for me and I would rise to fame and fortune. I was just a kid with no comprehension of how the world works. I believe my ideas were used. There is no proof besides me taking photos of my little brother in character. There is no time stamp on the photos either. I have no legal case. These accusations would not hold up in court.
I have reached out to the developers via Twitter, but have not received a response. They tend to post early concept art for their characters and I wonder if they still have mine. Maybe it was just a crazy coincidence they came up with the same ideas, but I doubt it.
If you have an idea, guard it with your life. You may think it is stupid, but it might not actually be. People will claim your creation as their own. You will be left in the dust looking like a crazy person who claims they created it, while someone else reaps the rewards.
Stan Lee is to Marvel what Steve Jobs was to Apple. They may not have done everything, but without them, they wouldn't be the multi-million company they are now.
You said it perfectly. Like the quote I found said "Jack Kirby created Marvel comics, but Stan Lee created Marvel Comics"
Owen Likes Comics thief
exactly
Steve Jobs actually did created
You need a great idea with vision and passion to do what Jack Kirby did. Anyone can sell or advertise a great idea because its a great idea. Stan has the more winning personality that helped sell the idea, so I give him that as far as making Marvel great. But if you follow some of Jack Kirby's interviews, Jack makes it very clear that he was the one who practically did everything, the brainstorming, character designs, plot, everything. Anyone with good grammar knowledge can edit wonderful stories and get all the credit for it. Just a thought.
I have seen many pictures from books, magazines, marvel newsletters, brochures with Kirby at the drawing table.... but no pictures of Stan Lee "adding dialogue"
Stan Lee hired Roy Thomas for that task.
It was a SYMBIOTIC relationship, more or less. Stan was more opportunistic, but JK deserves equal credit.
No it wasn't. It was parasitic. Stan Lee doesn't deserve the credit he gets. He is worse than Steve Jobs in the way he takes from genius people and claims their work for his own. He ruined Steve Ditko's life and he knew he could get away with because Steve Ditko had philosophical ideas that differed from the rest of the comic writers. Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if his real last name was "Goldman."
@@gaiseric9518 That'll work TOO.
@@gaiseric9518 this comment is so wrong on so many levels
@@Obscure_man31 No it really isn't. You should show Steve Ditko more respect. Your profile picture wouldn't exist without him. Stan Lee stole his creativity and left him a poor man before his death.
@@gaiseric9518 not really stan lee gave a 1 billion dollar check to Steve Ditko and he refused it he also dossent like taking awards for example when deni Loubert accepted an Inkpot Award on Steve Ditko's behalf (Renegade had published Ditko's World in 1986). Ditko refused the award, phoning Loubert to say, "Awards bleed the artist and make us compete against each other. They are the most horrible things in the world. How dare you accept this on my behalf." At Ditko's behest, Loubert returned the award to the San Diego Comic-Con organizers.
Bro seeing you did this 6 years ago to now, makes me feel like i can do better than what I limit myself to.
Kirby did the work..Stan got the credit for it.
That's why he left.
"Jack did the product, Stan sold it"
- Marv Wolfman, Marvel's editor-in-chief in the 70's
@Kurapika Giovanna Without Stan's writing, Kirby's artwork was just a bunch of colorful pages
@@jcl5611 not according to the marvel method, stan lee wrote the dialogues based what jack kirby drawn you can see the story through the colorful pages without stan lee's writing
@@AliFareedMC Lee gave the synopsis, Kirby fleshed it out, and Lee filled in the bubbles
@@jcl5611 Fantastic Four was based on Challengers of the Unknown
It is a shame that Jack Kirby doesn't get enough credit and is overshadowed by Stan Lee. But to discredit Stan Lee is asinine. Stan Lee had just as much to do with Marvel' success as Jack. Stan was an artistic genius who brought the ideas to Jack who would then draw what Stan visualized in his head. You can't have one without the other. Discrediting Stan Lee is ridiculous! Lee has given Jack Kirby full credit over the years for his artistic abilities.
They both contributed a lot which was important but in different ways. Stan cops a lot of flack and Jack doesn’t get the full recognition he deserves.
Yeah. Stan tried to credit a lot of the artists but in the end it all came to him. Non-comicbook fans actually assume he drew the comics too. They all deserve credit, not just from Stan, they deserve it from everyone too.
Now both are at peace
Jack Kirby and Stan lee needed each other for Marvel comics.Without them Marvel wouldn't be as successful than it is.So both should recieve credit for marvel comics.alongside steve ditko and others.
Great share as a collaborator on a piece (I can mention because of anonymity), I had to leave a project.
A writer gave me a character he wanted me to design. He offered no imput on the appearance of the character sure he created the story of the character, but the design was all me. I approached him about sharing the visual property, but he wasn't having it. So I took my drawings and resigned from the project. He is working with someone else now. But till this day it hasn't gotten off the ground.
If putting stupid words in the word balloons cites you as a creator, then Stan Lee can claim something. But every sane comic book reader is full aware of Stan's limitations, just look at everything he smeared his name on after Ditko and Kirby. Its all pure garbage.
einar darr You are an idiot. Ignorant. Learn about the topic, study and then comment. Jackass
@@dannyc8876 he is right tho, Post Kirby stan lee's works based on rehashing old ideas what the fuck is ravage 2099?
kirby transcends mere comics
one day he will be spoken of in the same breadth as mozart , da vinci , einstein
he was on that level
YES.OH HELL YEAH @ AND YOU KNOW WHAT??? JACK KIRBY CREATED SPIDER MAN!!!!!!!!! FACT !!!!!!!!!
good video bro im new to comics but i can see that jack kirby give alot to marvel but marvel give him the midel finger
+مصطفى اسعد Thanks man! If you can, I really recommend going back and reading some of the Lee/Kirby stories, you'll be able to find reprints of the original F4/X-Men, which are great!
Jack couldnt writte, just as Stan couldnt draw.
They are both equally responsable for the creation of the Marvel Universe.
It is a shame their egos were so big they were always clashing, because by the end of the day, Jack left Marvel because he wanted his name above Stan's, which is a ridiculous reason to quit.
Do you know what the Marvel Method is?
Stan Lee didn't work with full scripts like they do in companies like DC, Stan Lee didn't have time to full script, he just came with some ideas of the story and let artists a total freedom to create what they wanted to create, even completing the story and creating new characters for the story.
Stan Lee sometimes didn't even know what plot of the story or new character Jack Kirby was gonna to deliver him.
Jack Kirby not only drew the 100% of the artwork but also contributed with the 50% or more of the story.
The credits should have been.... Writers: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby. Artists: Jack Kirby.
Stan Lee took advantage of his position in Marvel as the editor-in-chief to make himself appear as the solo writer.
He knew that "little" detail would gave him more credit and protagonism than their co-workers.
With that detail the characters Jack Kirby created by his own were attributed to Stan Lee because the WRITER thing.
Or the "Stan Lee Presents...." intro in each comic.
More recently, Stan Lee himself admitted Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko were writers themselves, but they wrote with pictures.
Kirby
Lee
Alphabetically correct lol
Also, said to say, Jack Kirby was more of an comicbook artist than a businessman, and that's why what happened to him at Marvel occurred. Also, I read in The Village Voice in an article about Kirby that when he went over to DC, he later had problems, perhaps not as bad as @ Marvel, with DC too!
did kirby draw the cover for amazing fantasy 16
Very even sided analysis. Thanks for posting!
Marvel's Lee/Kirby is very much like D&D's Gygax/Arneson when it comes to recognition. Gary Gygax gets all the credit when without Arneson's contributions, Dungeons and Dragons would not be the game we know today. Same is true with Kirby. Because his contributions were in the background, Lee was able to claim the lion's share of the credit.
It's funny how Sue says she is trained in Judo while doing a strike on Dr.Doom. Judo does not have strikes. It's all throws and chokes and elbow locks.
Jack will always be the best of the best.
That was great and very informative. plus LOVE the challengers of the unknown.
+McCaffery Thank you, I didn't know too much about Challengers before this video, so I was really glad I stumbled onto them!
Owen Likes Comics I got it the older stuff which i really enjoyed but The Challengers were one of the few New 52 redesigns i thought were great, no matter how short lived they were.
My family jokes we all got our talent from Jack I see alot of family memebers follow in his footsteps when I was young I to started creating my own superheros but sadly he never got the credit tell after he died, but I keep his characters alive through my Cosplay and encourge my kids to never stop creating in Honor of Jack. to continue the Kirby name.
Love your videos informative and simple and clean layout..very straight forward.. Thank you
+karl Delalamon Thanks a lot! New 'How and Why' videos released every Tuesday, so make sure to check them out if you enjoyed this!
Man screw Stan Lee he crossed Jack Kirby worse than how Bob Kane did Bob Finger. I know he's dead but that doesn't undo being a garbage person.
Stan Lee screwed other people like Ditko and Wally wood, Bob Kane only Screwed Bill Finger
I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle! They both really needed each over for the marvel age to happen.
stan is the face, jack is the soul, however i feel jacks influence is more cosmetic in nature. and hiss arguments with lee on plot points i find petty, HOWEVER in alot of those arguments he was right, this does not mean however that he had the right to alter narrative flow. im left feeling conflicted about the whole thing. i think ill just go back to admiring the final product they made together,
+Mopee Dc I think that's a solid analogy. Jack and Stan seem like pretty hard headed guys, so it's no surprise they came into conflict so frequently. They're both amazingly creative minds, who proved they could write terrific stories both together and separate.
they need to make a Jack Kirby biopic starring Vincent Curatola.
Jack Kirby had lots of great ideas, but it was Stan that put Spider-Man on every little boy's backpack.
I'd love to see an English version of this.
🤣
Kirby (as well as other Marvel artists, more or less) did more of the actual STORYTELLING or PLOTTING in the art than given credit. You mentioned the Silver Surfer v. Thing plot Lee envisioned with Dr.Doom fighting the FF elsewhere. Kirby might have changed it and expanded on Lee's idea by later having The Surfer meet Dr.Doom 2 issues later after his fight with Ben, which led to the Doom Steals The Silver Surfer's powers epic!
Another example is the Challengers of The Unknown story (Issue #3) where one of the members went on an experimental space flight where he learned that the space radiation had given him super powers. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it?)
The problem was, Jack was being paid for the artwork but apparently got nothing for his plotting, financially or creatively! Most readers assumed Stan wrote everything related
to the story! Steve Ditko demanded a Co Plotter credit and got it, but did that equal
more money? DC promised Jack more control and an editorial position, regarding his own
books, but did he ever ask for a Co Plotter credit at Marvel, which included extra income? If not, Kirby made the right decision!
I'm not gonna lie stan Lee and jack kirby sounds why better than saying jack kirby and stan lee
Theirs a lot of info about this in the book "marvel the untold story" pretty interesting stuff. It also appeared that his return to marvel didn't go over well and was worse than the tension in the 60s.
+TheRAZORVIDS I intentionally skimmed over his return to Marvel because that's a video in itself. I might have to pick that book up!
Is a Jack Kirby Video becoming like a greatest hits album for a band? A sure way to get attention.....WELL IT WORKED. Great video and research.
WOW Did not realize this was over two years old. OH WELL. Its my first day here. Glad to find you.
Haha thank you very much Jason! I was still finding my feet when I made this video, but I'm still proud of it. Hope you enjoy the channel, man!
I can understand Kirby's disenchantment and wanting to prove he could go it alone, but did he achieve it though? I think the answer is more like yes and no. The truth is, that while Lee relied so much on Kirby at Marvel, he was an asset to him. He took a substantial amount of the workload from him, by doing the actual writing, but more to the point, he possesed superb script writing skills, that Kirby, as evinced by his abysmal inability to be able to do so at DC, clearly did not. While you can admire his art and conceptual brilliance on "New Gods", he had clearly taken on too much in the creation of a series of comics, with the added responsibility to add realistic depth to the plots and characters by having to do the scripting as well, an area in which he was clearly lacking. Could you honestly imagine what it would have been like at Marvel, if he'd been allowed to do it there?
Lee devised the method that allowed Kirby and others, full licence to plot and write comics in pictures, so of course it was his fault. It was also his fault if he didn't like it then. The fact that so much of the thinking was done by Kirby for instance, is attributable to his insistance that the artist would be responsible so much, so it's not surprising that Kirby played such a dominating role. It was understandable in the fast paced buisness of comics though, where everything had to be produced quickly on a monthly basis. It wasn't feasible for one person to keep coming-up with new ideas so quickly in such a limited space of time, so a co-partner was essential. It took the strain off both men.
The full contribution that each man gave in his respective profession, to the Marvel comics at the time, is something of a Chinese puzzle however. While Kirby was indispensible to what might be called Lee's master plan to create original comics, Lee did, as I've said, have sharp authorial skills, so why shouldn't he have been able to create storylines on his own, even while he had to rely on Kirby's help and the limited time space in which he was forced to produce? Of course, he did have some ideas, it's well known, which Kirby ultimately brought to life, but eventually, Lee did work with other artists, where he did prove to an extent at least, he could work without him, and his full writing skills came to the fore.
Lee did conceive of the original concept apparently for the Galactus character, but the accompaning Silver Surfer was Kirby's idea. Was it unfair then that Kirby wasn't allowed to do the art and plotting when the "Silver Surfer" magazine was launched? I suppose you could say yes for a character he had conceived first, as he probably already had plans arranged for it's inception, but once again, there seems to be no definite answers. By this time, both men were probably already stifling each other, and Lee had always had his personal ambitions to be a writer, and wanted to prove that he could work alone. It was understandable that he wanted his own space away from the freeways he had allowed Kirby to create.
While it would have been interesting to have seen how Kirby would have conceived the origin of the Silver Surfer and handled the actual magazine, even with Lee's superb expertise with dialogue and characterisation, it would not have been the same. Kirby would have turned any ideas Lee had into something other than what was a magazine different to anything that had been done in comics before. The Silver Surfer's character was developed beyond what he had been in the "Fantastic Four". He came to the fore working on his own, for what was and probably still is his greatest work. John Buscema's realistic style suited the mood and themes of the magazine in a way that merged perfectly with Lee's stories, that Kirby's particular style would never have achieved.
Kirby had been one of the principle architects at Marvel, and I haven't meant to sound negative about him, and as I've said, Lee couldn't have done without him, but I think what I've said, is fair to both men. Kirby probably was right to leave Marvel in regards to his lack of recognition for what he'd been allowed to do, and it's reasonable to assume he wanted his own space, but whether he was better on his own at DC, isn't easy to say. It seems difficult to be objective about this.
Lee doesn't think of characters like Halactus out mutants, those mythical and scientific elements in comics are foreign to the mind of smiley. He just took credit for everybody's work and creation, a real leech.
Kirby created the characters but Lee gave them life, so...its 50/50
The more I hear, the more I see, the more I read, I'm a big believer in they just made the work together. It was problematic, fluid, fractious, complicated but they reached a point of synergy that was unparalleled. If Marvel had only been Jack Kirby, it wouldn't have gotten as big as Marvel did. Jack Kirby is great, the greatest -- but Stan Lee completed him in a way that no one else did. Even if you say most of the Fantastic Four is Jack, without Stan, they simply don't reach the heights that they reached. Stan Lee was wrong for how much he used the word "I". He's wrong for that. But just because he exaggerated his contribution doesn't mean his contribution wasn't integral. Nothing Kirby ever did without Lee ever had the same impact as the Fantastic Four, Thor, the Avengers, the X-Men, etc. That means something. It doesn't mean it's all Stan but it does mean that act of creation is a mysterious, wonderful thing and in a collaborative art form, maybe it doesn't matter where one ends and the other begins as much as the final product. And I thank God for the work these two men did together. I wish it had been easier for them both.
+BeirutWedding Captain America was made in 1941 almost 2 decades before Stan Lee got involved in the comic books from comic book/creative Mavel. Kirby was the sole original creator of the captain America character.
TheSSUltimateGoku No, he wasn't. He created Captain America with Joe Simon.
@@IntheClutch75 What about Darkseid ?
What about the Eternals?
Marvel Studios is planning to release a movie of these characters and Angelina Jolie is a prospect. 😉
I will always love him for creating Hawk and dove. I really love the idea of a democratic and a Republican as a dou!.
Bullshit Jack Kirby was the real king behind Marvel
I was a teen, Marvel die-hard fan till my favorite artists* went the Kirby way, and left as a group to found Image.
*not Liefeld.
Check into Arlen Shumer for in-depth investigations into this controversy.
Kirby was pissed because he didn’t get exposure and credit he wanted. Yet he kept coming back to Marvel and Stan…..No offense, but Kirby’s “solo” work wasn’t great…..Eternals and New Gods were rough and Eternals wasn’t popular at all.
Kirby was more interested in making Cosmic/God-related characters. Literally take a look at most of the characters Jack Kirby has sole credit for creating and you realize it's mostly just Cosmic/God-related characters. Stan was interested in making people with human struggles while being superheroes. Stan was the substance and Kirby was the style for the characters they made.
Whoever you give credit both of them sound like a nightmare to work with
Kirby left Marvel because he got a pay cut from the owners of Marvel. Kirby wanted a contract and he went over Stan's head. The contract was less than what Kirby was making so he left. That's why it was a total surprised to Stan. DC had a nice contract for him with an editorial credit to go with it.
Both Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko
we're never given the credit for their contributions to the Marvel universe. Stan Lee may have had the concepts but the artists brought them to life!
Stan Lee did say something like that in an interview
But Stan and Steve diko do disagree on who created spider man Stan came up with the concept so I have to give it to Stan bit he couldn't have done it without him
i need captions for this.. this man has something against consonants
Stan Lee writing is extremely good compared to a lot of other writers...that being said I think art is more important when selling comics. Kirby did the more important part imo.
I disagree, i wont buy a comic for fantastic art if the story is pure shit, but i also wont buy a great story with shit art, its 50/50 neither make up for the lack of the other
Oh Owen...do you have any idea what a can of worms you opened up here?
Jack was actually a free lancer so he was going back and forth with marvel he wanted recognition but didn’t like publicity he never had a problem with Stan it was just the fans of the time who kept giving the credit to Stan me personally I give credit to both Stan and Jack for all the amazing characters they created
Well informative Owen, thing is though...after leaving Marvel both Kirby and Lee never scaled the creative heights they did in the 60's. Without each other's input they seemed to flounder. Stan obviously reigned in some of Jack's over the top concepts and Jack brought Stan's "plot lines" to life.
I know in interviews with Roz and Jack they slammed Stan about not having created anything since Jack left Marvel but I don't think either of them got over the creative split.
Jack was right to leave Marvel, look at what happened creatively with the publisher after he departed...another video on the state of marvel on the Marvel in the early 70's perhaps?
+john nuttall Thanks John, Happy Birthday! I think you're correct about the idea that Stan and Jack separate couldn't replicate the success they had together. Lee's post-Kirby work never had the same spark (not counting the early Spider-Man, which I give Ditko and Romita Sr a lot of credit to), and Kirby's Forth World was a great concept, but didn't have the emotional connection that his work with Lee did. Marvel in the 70's is definitely something I want to discuss eventually!
Lee and Kirby are like Lennon and McCartney. Both great individually, super, if different, talents. But when together they were just on another planet. Bringing out the very best in each other.
@@brutallyhonestcards6880 you must not know much about comics, all that work was all from the mind of Kirby, smiley was just a con man
Stan was a businessman , he knew how to sell the products but Kirby created the product which was art . You cant sell something without the artist and the two butted heads . Kirby's art blossomed in the mid 60s look at the early 60s and compare it . Kirby was the real man and stan was the man .
If Sue knows Judo, she learned it somewhere, what's wrong with Reed teaching it?
They were excellent collaborators. How’s that. These quibbles are rampant between people who ought to appreciate what they achieved together. How cool would it have been for Lee and Ditko to attend the first screening of Spider Man together.
David Terry that would be further insult to ditko.
How anyone can say in all sincerity that Kirby was a bad storyteller and copywriter is beyond me. All of the work he did on his own has fantastic dialogue and brilliant pacing. Whereas Stan created a sort of artificial lingo for comics that stuck. I am not saying that I do not appreciate the effect that it can have, but it is NOT, definitely not, well written dialogue.
Dan Gh. Putting my 2 cents into this. My main problem with Jack the Hack's storytelling (going by reading his whole run on the Demon and OMAC, along with 5 issues of Devil Dinosaur) is his characterization falls flat on the verbal side. Almost all of Jack's character's talk the same which made the character's come off more bland and boring. The way he portraits personality verbally is hit or miss too. Sometimes he can have hits like Etrigan who is verbally shown to be while cocky and full of himself, displays an unyielding trust and loyalty to Merlin. Other times he can have misses like Jason Blood's friend who is a girl who is so forgettable and bland that I forgot her name while writing this and she is the one who helps save Jason Blood at the end.
There's another issue that bothered me and that was fact that often when the art in the panel displays all the information need, there's always a character or caption that says the obvious.
My overall thoughts on him as a storyteller was that he was okay. Had strengths, like pacing and art. Had weaknesses like the ones I said above.
PS: I didn't actually meant it when I said Jack the Hack. I actually like Kirby alot. (This comment down below was to see if you paid attention to the whole reply before commenting)
Time to give it a rest and just admire the Kings work. We will never know the complete story.
To me their relationship was like the relationship Matt Stone and Trey Parker have now. One does do or did more than the other, but without their partner they wouldn’t have gotten anywhere. They needed each other, even if one could do great on their own it would never match the success they had when they worked together. RIP Stan “The Man” Lee and RIP Jack “The King” Kirby
Long live the King
Can you subtitle this? It's not just that your accent is hard to understand, but the sound quality is middling at best.
Conor Charlton this is actually a really old video, one where I clearly hadn't figured out audio mixing as well as I have now. If you want to watch a similar video on Kirby, have a look for my 2 part Fantastic Four series - you may enjoy that! Thanks
How ironic that many of the original character Jack so call created in Marvel's silver age where actually reworked characters either created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby or created by Joe Simon alone. A little fact is Jack was enticed by Marvel to lie and sign a contract saying that he and Simon were paid employs of Timely there for giving Marvel exclusive rights to Captain America and assuring Kirby unlimited comic book work at the company. In reality the property legally belonged to Joe Simon but most people don't want to know this truth.
who created DC's Thor and Challengers of the Unknown?
I get Captain America and The Fly were originally by Joe Simon but what other characters Jack Kirby worked on Beside Spiderman and Captain America that was reworked from joe simon's?
@@AliFareedMC the Vision was created by Joe Simon. Thor has been around for 1,000's of years. He's part of Norse Mythology.
@@nighttigercomics7323 yeah I meant Thor as a comic book character not the Mythology
@@nighttigercomics7323 also Marvel's Vision was created by Roy Thomas and not Jack kirby
@@AliFareedMC not true. The silver age Vision was taken from Joe Simon's Timely Vision character. The pose from Avengers 57 is an exact copy of the golden age character. You really need to do the research before making statements. I'm a real close friend of Joe Simon's grandson. He has schooled on everything Joe Simon.
Finally real story
I agree that Jack Kirby should have been the real face of MARVEL comics instead of Stan Lee cause thats just not right for him to not have all the credit that he earned over the years and taken all away from just like that!
Stan Lee was made famous because of his cameos tricking people who only watch movies that he created all the Marvel Heroes (and in weird case they also say DC) while Jack Kirby is famous because he is the King of comics
Stan was publicly promoting Marvel since the 70s before the movies made them huge. Stan is the biggest promoter for his comic book characters more than any comic book writer or artist and you know it.
What about his worse mistreatment at DC?
I need captioning.
if he was still alive today he'd sue disney for defamation
change your microphone bro and get a compressor
Hey Wes, this is a bit of an old video. You'd be happy to hear I've hugely upgraded my equipment and software since then haha, check out some of our latest videos and see what you think!
Jack kirby is omnipotent.
real reason kirby quit is martin( jackass) goodman cheap so so nuff said.....
Jack Kirby was the heart and soul; backbone of Marvel Comics...Stan Lee was a control freak!
good video
Without jack Kirby there would. Be a marvel comic's but without a doubt. Marvel comic's would had folded. Month's later, like all the other comic. Company's did during that time. Mr Kirby pulled stan lee,s ass out of the fire and helped him create what rhe world is enjoying. Mr kirbys brilliance today but he was shafted by a lot of. Crooked men that worked at marve comics he deserved much much. More than he received from them. And his family need to be compensated from their father's hard work and creativity the marvel universe would not exist without mr Kirby PERIOD!!!!!!!!!