12 gauge vs. 45-70 gov't for Bear and Moose Defense in Alaska
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- Disclaimer: We were at a safe shooting range following all safety rules. Please do not try this unless you're in a safe shooting range environment. All trash was cleaned up off the ground.
Today we're looking at the .45-70 gov't cartridge and if it compares to 12gauge when used for bear or moose protection. which one do you think. is better?
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Always use slugs. Don't fall for the myth of buckshot being effective unless it's up close. Buckshot spreads loses its energy and I've read one bear story when he fired it didn't even Penetrate the skin. Why not have that energy confined in a solid heavy grain slug or hardcast 45 70. Garrett is the Supreme 45 70 round
Yes! Agreed to all.. need some of those Garrett bullets
In a slug gun the first three or four rounds can be slugs but the last couple might be best to have buckshot. Less need to aim and by the time you might need to use buckshot the bear would be close. By the time the bear is that close the desire to stand there and take aim would be difficult to attain.
@russellkeeling4387 buckshot can still FAIL TO PENETRATE. AS I'VE SAID SEVERAL TIMES. People have ZERO idea how tough these animals really are
@@russellkeeling4387i think you are living in a fantasy land if you think you are going to ve getting off a full tube of shells.
You will maybe have the time for 1 or maybe 2. Thats it. Plus the bear is running towards you so you have to lead him. Meaning you really only have time for 1.
Most of the time the myths of bears getting shot and it not penetrating are simply the shooter missing over the top of the bear failing to lead the moving target.
That's why you run a semi auto... many documented cases of people getting off 15rds of 10mm or 9mm... and getting the job done
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I lived in Kodiak for much of my life and was badly mauled in the late 90s. There is one brown bear per square mile on the archipelago. When blacktail deer hunting I quickly learned to use a heavier than normal deer gun because the bears are coming not long after you put that deer down. My choice was a .350 Rem Mag. You don't drag a deer out in that mountainous country, you cut the meat from the bone, bag it and put it in your pack. They are trained to come to shots (it's not a myth) and most of the time will hang back knowing you will leave a gut pile to them. Sometimes they come right in to take the whole deer and if you're smart you don't cut your tag until you've got the meat in a tree back near camp. More important than caliber is having an optic that dials down to 1X. If you have a typical 3X9 scope you're blind at close range. As for .45-70 vs 12 Gauge I carried either in the summer when fishing. I had a Marlin w/ ghost ring sights and a Baikal Coach Gun in 12 Gauge. I leaned towards the 12 because it was handy, the poor man's double rifle. I carried my fishing gear in an army alice pack and sewed a leather cup on the right bottom. The coach gun fit in perfectly with the muzzles in the leather cup and the stock hanging out over my right shoulder for a quick draw. I only used the 12 once to stand down an aggressive bear along a stream. I fired the right barrel into the mud at his feet. The shot noise and mud splatter stopped him and I just backed off with the left barrel in reserve. I never worried about having only two rounds. I had learned in the mauling that you'll only get one shot and you have to get lucky to get even one off. In actual brown/grizzly attacks they come in at 30 mph and just mow you down, then turn for the actual mauling. I had a rifle in my hands when mauled and didn't even have time to level it before the bear hit me. The rifle went airborne and I went straight to the ground and took a hell of a lot of punishment before my partner shot it off me.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
thankyou for your insight, firsthand experience trumps all other kinds.
I agree with 90% of your comment. The, "you only have time to get off one shot" is situationally accurate. I'd rather have follow-up shots with a semi-automatic shot gun than a side-by-side or over-under. Distance is also a factor. If you're ambushed by a bear sometimes you don't have time to get off ANY SHOTS. In that case you could have a Barrett .50 cap and it wouldn't do you any good. But if you have time and distance (which is only a luxury) it's better safer than sorry. Because if you don't have good shot placement, you're screwed either way.
So the "double barrel is all you need" isn't good advice imo. And I wouldn't recommend it.
@@wadewilson8011 The coach gun was more about ease of carry than anything else, and mostly used when hiking into a favorite fishing hole or into an area for photography. With it in my backpack and set up for an easy draw it was a good compromise. The lowlands around streams are a maze of alders where you sometimes have to monkey yourself through. The high ridges are steep and rocky, and ten pounds of shotgun in hand is a real encumbrance. Remember too, you need a backpack with water, food, fishing gear and various survival items in Alaska. With that on, you can't just sling a shotgun. The shorty double fit into the pack with the stock over my right shoulder. It was either that or a handgun, and having seem my share of big browns I had no use for handguns as bear protection.
HOLY CRAP!!! What a harrowing story! Glad to know that you survived the encounter. Thanks for the insight and thanks for sharing!👍❤🙏
I live in a remote area of British Columbia. I have owned many different 45-70 rifles and many 12 gauges. My preference will always be the 12 gauge in a reliable platform like the Rem 870. I prefer a solid hard cast slug out of a rifled slug barrel. This is a defensive, not a hunting round as it is best used at ranges under 100 yards. After seeing the damage this round does on both black and grizzly bear at shots taken around 75 yards vs any 45-70 loads, I find the comparison is not even close. My brother in law used the 12 gauge on one bear resulting in a complete body pass-through left to right, smashing through the front shoulder and exiting a rear hip, dropping the bear in his tracks. This was admittedly, a thirty yard shot, but the power and incredible destruction of his round has to be seen, the ability to crush bone and create massive hemorrhage resulting in instant blood pressure loss and shock is incredible.
Thank you for sharing your experience. What do you use to waterproof your slugs?
You're talking like an ER nurse/MD. Hemorrhage, BP drop, shock. I love it. So true.
The .45-70 would do the same thing. Mass is almost the same with more speed
Velocity equals power, the bone crushing power of the 45-70 blows away a 12 GA, Guaranteed!! If you’ve ever been around big brownies you would know that.
Was that bear a black bear?
I own both and would trust either. We have black bears, rarely browns, lions, coyotes, wolves…many other predators and game animals..I generally carry one of my 45-70’s when hiking our hills. I often carry a 44 or a 10mm in a shoulder rig. All this gear keeps my old legs and heart functioning pretty strong for my age.
Those are all great choices
We have coyotes here. Occasionally a mountain lion will pop up from out west, following the river. We had a black bear wander here from Minnesota last summer and a......moose. what the he'll a moose is doing in Iowa, no idea. But he ended up here.
@brianc9374 that's actually cool. Following food probably
@@AlaskanBallistics maybe. I think it's funny when I hear people talking about 10mm for coyote protection. Makes me scratch my head on whether they've actually seen one.
@brianc9374 while you need less for coyotes, having more power isn't a bad thing
I don't even live anywhere near Alaska but I find these type of videos very interesting.
I have a home in bear country and big cats have been spotted too. I carry a 44 revolver on my belt and 12 gauge pump with slugs when away from the house. Now, having said that, I've had bear come to the house to visit, walking up onto the porch and around the exterior of the home. I've had opportunities to shoot one, but rather enjoy just watching. Magnificent animals. Smart too. My vote goes to the 12 gauge as being sufficient for any large critter in North America, when the proper load is utilized.
12 GUAGE SLUG, 00 BUCK , SLUG, 00 BUCK. SLUG. --- DEVISTATING DEFENSE HITING AN ATTACKING BEAR IN THE FACE AT CLOSE RANGE WITH A LOAD OF BUCK WILL SHUT THEM DOWN , FAST. 10 MM. DOUBLE STACK 1911 SIDEARM . 17 ROUNDS. AND A TOMAHAWK. BETER SAFE THAN SORRY.
Nope slugs only.
@@AlaskanBallistics Been there with 12 gauge 3" mag 00 buck, and black bear - failure. Fortunately followed up with slug -success. No 00 pellet penetrated beyond the last layer of the hide. All that hit the skull flattened and did not scratch, dent or crack the bone. I cut the pellets out of the hide. Range about 30 to 40 feet.
@Interesting I've often wondered about that. I've heard of Duck shells penetrating a grizzly bear skull more than your experience with the black bear. Thank you for sharing.
I shot a medium sized black bear in the chest with 12 GA SSG at about 7 or 8 feet. We had to kill it with a slug to the head. None of the SSG penetrated to the lungs. It was roughly 30 years ago and I haven't carried a shotgun for wilderness protection ever since.
Since I have both .45 70 and 12 gauge, I would use either one that I had in my hand. The opportunity to run into a bear where I live is less than 10%, but then there are times, especially in the spring and early summer where I am in the mountains quite often. I carry a .45 70 with me because the chances of a bear encounter increases dramatically. This is a GREAT informative video and I will now need to purchase the slugs. Thanks Chuck, great teaching opportunity.
Thank you for watching!
Knew a guy who had a polar bear break into his cabin...He defended himself with 12 GA pump shotgun. Paraphrasing him ,, His recalling event he began with,, MY TABLE ''BETWEEN US '' PREVENTED BEAR FROM GETTING ME,, I USED ALL 5 shots before bear is stopped..I never asked if he used buckshot or slugs . Ultimately !! The LUCKIEST GUN IS THE BEST..
That must have been so intense
@@righteousone8454 Talk about a reality check! My heart would have exploded.
375 H&H is what I carried in Alaska 89-94. I got laughed at and talked shit about, but it worked one day when as a chechako i made the transition to Tenderfoot. Yes, I went thru all the requirements! If you know, you know. But that was the only one I guess fate saved it for my final test. Use what ever you want, but know this- It will come down to shot placement and extreme survival extinct that you must have in the blink of an eye.
Thank you for sharing your experience! Godspeed and good hunting to you and yours
People can laugh all they want. The 375 Holland & Holland has stood the test of time because it is never the wrong choice.
45-70 sounds good to me! I have both. My 16” 1895 is a joy to carry and shoot! 🇺🇸
45-70 is a waterproof round, and 12 gauge slugs are not. For the same barrel length and weight, you can get more rounds into a lever action. Shotguns are not 100% drop safe, so carrying with a round in the chamber isn't ideal. 45-70 also doubles as a great big game hunting round within 150yards, meaning that you can bring it as your hunting rifle while it doubles as your wilderness defense gun. You're not likely to lug your shotgun on your shoulder while you carry your 30-06. All in all, I'm team 45-70, but if a 12 gauge is all you have you're certainly not undergunned.
Well said my friend
The guage is short range gun but can drop moose im sure. The fact it only holds small amount of rounds better be good shot with it. The 45 70 has range and holds more rounds. I would say 45 70 is winner same reason. I am tied between lever action and bolt action. I think there both quick reload ones.
brooooo very well said
My 12 guage holds 8 shells in the tube. I don't know of any 45-70 that holds more than 6 in the tube. With 6+1, you're still 1 round less than my shotgun with no round in the chamber. Capacity isn't really the issue.
Some might say the 45-70 has a slight advantage of carrying 1 in the chamber with the hammer down. But is it really an advantage? In stressful situations, your fine motor skills give way to gross motor skills. Cocking the hammer on the 45-70 becomes more difficult than racking the pump on my shotgun.
Waterproofing the shells does become a necessity though, so I'd give the slight advantage to the 45-70.
And the .45-70 still wins
I own both and I'll take the 12-gauge pump over the 45/70 for self-defense of man or beast around camp or the cabin We are defending ourselves there at close range. If we are hunting, I'll take the 45/70 as my sole firearm. I don't want to lug around two long guns, but I will take a hand cannon with me.
Fair enough. Godspeed and good hunting
W
@@AlaskanBallistics I just purchased another 200 rounds for my 45/70 it might be a tad overkill for a breech loading single shot. However, I enjoy shooting and I dislike being short on Ammo!!!!!
I agree with your decision. Go have fun. My single shot h&r is one gun I wish I never sold.
.45-70, not 45/70.
Excellent video Chuck. Man you had all of the elements for greatness in this one: Alaska - check, a mention of Mississippi - check, .45-70 - check, 12 Gauge slugs - check!
And .45-70 won the fight, but I would feel pretty well protected with those monoliths out of the 12 gauge.
Agreed.. they'd do the job
I used to have a model 95 in .45-70 and used it as a brush gun. I friend loaded up many boxes of 405 grain bullets loaded to produce 2000 ft per second and I called the combination "my poor man's elephant gun". That combination worked much better than my .30-06 Remington model 72 in the deep brush filled valleys of Southern Oregon.
I took my biggest buck in Georgia with a similar combo
I'd be interested in the load he used to push a 405 grain bullet to 2000 fps without blowing the rifle up.
@@russellkeeling4387
Factory ammo! Check it out.
Thank you for the testing. We still don't know which is better. You used the best 45-70, but a weak 12 gauge. Use both the Black Magic 3" & the Magnum Crush. It's for close range bear defense.
That particular 12 ga slug isn't waterproof... I've had personal experience with it. Won't carry again without waterproofing. Hard to fish for salmon without occasionally falling in n the drift moving stream you're fishing
Have 12 gauge Rem 870 Pump and Marlin 1895 GBL 45-70. I shoot Black
Buttery 576 grain @1400 with the Marlin. The Pump 12 gauge is more power for dollar, but the Marlin hits harder depending on ammo.
Interesting. Nice choices. Godspeed and good hunting to you and yours my friend.
I often have a Browning A5 Slug Gun and use Brennke Original Slugs exclusive. Very effective on Moose and Bear.
I also have a Marlin Trapper 45/70 and handload 350gr Speer FN with 48.0 of IMR 4198.
The Brennke Shotgun slug has tremendously great energy at close range.
From polar bears to Grizzly bear it’s what we used on TAPS Security in Alaska.
How do you waterproof the Brenneke slug?
@@AlaskanBallistics
I never needed to waterproof any of my hand loads or store bought ammo for 50 years. Only waterproof ammo I have used was in the military
Then you've never been fishing here
@@AlaskanBallisticsexposed slug rounds, use mink oil to seal the round. If you have a crimped load, clear fingernail polish. I’d recommend using the clear polish to seal the hull to the brass regardless. Bout got tore up by a Russian boar in the rain years ago. I’ve waterproofed my shells ever since
I would use either one depends on what I was doing, but I do declare the 45-70 the clear winner, although if it was me I would either carry the 50-110 or the 45-90 what is 1/2 ton more energy for the 45-90 and almost 2 tons more energy for the 50-110 The odds would be in my favor lol
Agreed
That 50-110 like the 50 BMG of Lever guns 😆
Just remember a 1000 lb bear going 25mph still has 3 times the foot pounds of energy even the 50-110 has
@@AlaskanBallistics At least a half inch of him would be going backwards really fast ;)
@Don Mattson a fair point
I've always wondered which would be best, but as a firearm enthusiast, I would have both too. 👍
Now that's the best answer lol
I really like a good 12g as the final barrier between me and deadly game encounters. A pickaxe (45-70) may penetrate deeper, but a sledgehammer (12g) just has more impact and is more of a deterrent and a more immediate message.
Maybe
What do you mean by "more impact" ?
@@AlaskanBallistics more initial impact. The force is initially spread across a larger surface area on its face and will have more of a reaction to whatever it hits.
Maybe.. but impact doesn't kill, penetration does. My .338 win mag that penetrated that grizzly bear from mouth to butt worked well. Flattened him
Impact.
I spend a lot of time in grizzly country in Canada. I own and trust both but if hunting I carry the 45/70 knowing I can use it for defence if needed. A hunting rifle that can be used for emergency defence. The 12 gauge is carried when working - 14 inch barreled 870 - light - fast and intended for use very close though in a pinch I could hunt with it because of the range of ammo I can easily carry. A defensive firearm that can be used for emergency hunting. Outside of regular hunting season, the 12 gauge seems to upset fish and wildlife officers less because they recognize the defensive aspect though I do carry a copy of the relevant section of the firearms act to remind them on barrel length laws for those of them that tend to forget. Saves on awkward misunderstandings.
Yeah our barrel length laws are 18". For shotgun 16" for rifles.
@@AlaskanBallistics here in the Great White North the Powers That Be are really stick in the muds on handguns but if you are carrying a 9 inch barrel pump action shotgun with a 5-shot detachable box mag (we got em though why is a good question lol) so long as it has an "as manufactured" barrel then all is good. The Fish and WIldlife folks sometimes need to be Bitch Slap educated on that though.
I lived in Alaska for 6 years. Either one of those gun and ammo combinations would easily stop the biggest baddest brown bear in a head on charge if you hit it in skull or spine, which is easier said than done when you have very little time to do it. Second choice for shot placement would be a shoulder shot, which might slow him down for a second shot. If you hit him anywhere else, it doesn't matter how big and powerful your gun is, you are in serious trouble! What ever gun ammo you use for bear protection in Alaska, make sure you know it will penetrate heavy bone and muscle. I carried a Ruger super Blackhawk with 320gr. Hard cast slugs that I cast and loaded myself. Velocity was around 1380fps. I fired those slugs into veriety of different objects until I was confident it would penetrate the biggest bear skull. Nice video, keep em coming! 😎
No they would not. I keep having to educate people on this, but 12 gauge slugs are not good for penetration. Level 3A soft armor vest will stop 12 gauge slugs. Sure if you are hunting with slugs, and you have time to aim and get a well placed shot, fine, but in a situation where a hungry bear is charging, it is not a great choice. 45-70 is a much better choice. It is kinda like the video from a couple years back where the bear charged the guy, and he shot it at very close range with a 12 gauge slug, and the bear simply rolls, then keeps right on charging like it had zero effect. Again, 12 gauge slugs just are not good for penetration through bone.
@@chrisgullett4332I thought he had actually hit that with bird shot for the very reason that he didn’t want to kill the bear
@@kevinlewis8137 Nobody tries to shoot a bear to not kill it. That sound absurd.
@@chrisgullett4332 I agree! Except in this case. I watched the video and the guy said he purposely used birdshot to hurt the bear but not kill it. Completely stupid but it worked out for him in this instance as it gave him time to get into his house. I also believe that when you shoot a threat it’s always to kill. (Or to “stop the threat” as we were told to say back when I was a deputy.)
@@kevinlewis8137 No the video I mentioned the guy used slugs. Nobody shoots to injure a bear, they shoot to stop it.
Here in Montana we have a grizzly explosion, along with mtn lions, wolves and black bears. I'm 72 and spend alot of time in the mtns cutting wood. Waterproofing is not a consideration, but I have an 870 with slugs close by, or will also have a .460/.500 S&W handy. I NEVER go out solo, always have a pard who also carries, can never be too safe! So far, our only "close encounter" has been a couple of angry squirrels! Be safe!
Great comparission.
I went 10mm like a fool. Had nothing but issues with the smith. So I went with what I wanted in the first place; 20ga shockwave.
Love it.
In monster country I'd probably buy a 12ga shockwave.
Thank you for posting. Most dangerous place I've been (outside of downtown Seattle) is the Pacific Crest Trail between I-90 and the US/Can border. My only dealings with griz or browns is watching the action at Brooks Falls on RUclips. All I've got for close and dangerous is a Super Blackhawk 4-5/8" .44 Mag or a Remington Tac-14 with slugs. I enjoyed your video and also reading the comments from those who have been there and done that. Thank you.
On the dduplex you have to modify the powder charge and you can get 1800fps. After the ATF banned the import because of the armor piercing ability, they cut the load when they come in again as "broadhead". When they were import under monolit 32 they were hot. When they are broad head they are not.
Okay nice to know
Good comparison Chuck!! (Sorry ta hear about the knee)
Speaking DEFENSE.
Both top contenders. Both well respected. Both strong arguments.
I always wanted the Marine Remmy 870.
12g is a most awesome defensive tool. I have much respect & time behind one. But I also know the power on tap to a handloader with a 45/70.
I think the 45/70 has the versatility over the 12.
But Id have to go with my proven Remmy 870 12g.
Hope the knee improves. I know all about knee issues.
It's slowly getting there.
Yeah i think there are more energetic slugs out there though
Hi Chuck, excellent podcast thanks. Not ever having lived in bear country- I would think 12 guage great- fast reloading, powerful and economic to buy. But the 4570 looked like it had the edge on the slug gun and offers versatility for other big game. Interesting to read comments on big bolt rifles too. God Bless Dave
He was using weak ammo for the 12 ga, A brenneke slug blows a 45-70 out of the water
Brenneke isn't naturally waterproof. Don't slip salmon fishing
I was impressed by the 45/70 velocity. Besides a Ruger 44 mag Blackhawk on my hip allways caried A 12 gauge Riot gun for bear and never was forced to kill one. In the Mentastas I had a land claim 700 feet from a generational den. The 12 gauge ammo is definately easier to find and buy. Stay allert and alive. Dandahermit
I alternate my 12 gauge slugs and buckshot (000 and 00). The only critter i had to shoot was a lynx that had gotten into my chicken coop, couldnt get back out and was very pissed off. My first shot (in the snow with slippers on) i wasnt ready and got knocked on my butt, but then i had a stable platform and shot the lynx in the head even though it was a quickly moving target. It definitely stopped the cat, but we lost most of our flock.
If you're worried about small critters, why not have a lighter recoiling rifle with varmit loads? That's a great ar-15 application. Load up some vmax
I've been using the Garrett 420gr +P Hammerhead's. Very similar to the rounds you tested. It really makes the 45-70 shine in my opinion.
Agreed
If I'm not mistaken the 420 grin is only 1650 fps very slow moving with minimum recoil
Garrett recommends that round for bear if you're sensitive to recoil and will do the job well
Deep penetration
He said the harder it hits the faster it stops. Hardcast is the goat
@geraldek4948 mine is going in the hi 1800s fps
Accuracy and speed are important. I've got both and feel good with either but most people I know shoot a shotgun faster more accurately under pressure. I mostly carry my 45-70 with buffalo bore but sometimes carry black magic magnum slugs either will do its part if I do mine. Also buckshot to the face out of a open cylinder shotgun followed up with slugs are very effective buckshot don't penetrate the body well but ant decent hunter can tear it's face and eyes apart at at 10 yards.
Problem is when b they start charging at 25 or 50 yards with buckshot.
I appreciate your opinion and your comment. Godspeed and good hunting
Would have loved to see some 3'' Black Magic 600 grain slugs tested against the 45/70. Hotter and heavier they are. Or better yet, SFBPM, special forces maximum barrier protection. It uses an extra hardened lead alloy, and was designed to shoot through rims, tires engine blocks etc. 602 grain slug at 1650 per second with (3545) ft lbs energy and in a 2 3/4 in round. They told me the fish and game in Alaska love those rounds.
Episode 2 coming this winter, but those are not Waterproof shells from Experience
I'll take 45-70 over 12 gauge every time up there. But down in NC the 12 is awesome. I have both. 45 is my favorite but my go to is my 30-30. It does what I need. Great comparison
Good choices. Thanks for watching. Happy hunting
Pistol & rifle ammo is generally waterproof but if in doubt use clear nail polish around the edge of the primer then apply where the bullet meets the cartridge getting it on top the crack and wipe immediately off with cotton rag let dry 24 hours. Worked for different pistol and rifle rounds in powerheads down to 105 ft. I tried non-treat rounds to 85 ft depth multiple dive no failures.
Thank you! That's great ammo
As long as you have the right ammo for penetration you are good with either one. So it boils down with which one you have, personal perference and ammo availability. The 12 ga. has the flexibility to use shot shells for smaller game and birds.
Agreed
Both excellent, but you can get 12G in semi-auto. The Beretta 1301 LT and Benelli M4 are dead-nuts reliable. They also cost $2k, but you only ever have to buy them once.
Hope you're knee gets better soon, I have carried both and did not feel under armed with either but prefer the 45/70
Knee is much better now
Great test and comments. I don't own a .45/70, but i do have an Ithaca model 87 featherweight deerslayer with a rifled barrel. I mounted a Nikon Slughunter 2 x 7 power scope for balance of accuracy plus target aquisition. For deer, elk, etc, i run the extremely accurate Hornady SST's in 300 grains. They only drop 12.5 inches at 200 yards, so i call it my "12 gauge rifle." I would definitely upgrade the range of the SST's for a heavier hard cast slug after watching your video and reading the comments. Also, waterproofing slugs is something I'd never considered until now. My Ithaca only holds three 2.75 inch rounds, won't take 3" either. More rounds doesn't concern me much as you won't get many shots, and the need for an accurate first shot is critical. Someday, I may get a .45/70, but i haven't so far as I live in Washington State, and the Ithaca with the 300 grain SST's is adequate for anything I'm likely to run into, with the possible exception of grizzly. I'm going to get some hard cast heavier saboted slugs, though. And waterproof them. If i was using it strictly for big bear defense, I'd remove the Nikon 2 x 7 scope and mount a rear peep sight like so many of the .45/70's come with. I have 2 muzzleloaders that i put rear peep sights on due to my astigmatism making buckhorn rear sights not ideal, even if they are fibre optic. I own a .41 magnum Ruger and a Kenai Chest Holster that would come with me. Normally i carry my .357 with 180 grain Buffalo Bullets when I'm alone. When i had clients fishing in brown bear country, I carried a stainless 12 gauge 870 pistol grip with 3 inch Brenneke slugs. I carried bear spray, an air horn, and a flare gun to round out my non-lethal options. I had to spray an aggressive brown bear once, and it was effective. The flares work well when a bear is slowly aproaching on a gravel bar, with no danger of setting the forest on fire. The air horn is more effective than some realize, but hard cast lead is what i believe in. The .45/70 is appealing and has its advantages, but shot placement trumps everything else. I no longer have my pistol grip 870, and that makes me more likely to get a .45/70. Thanks to you, Chuke, and to all who commented to give me a great basis for options. 🐻
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I'm chuck not Chuke
The 45-70 obviously better at penetration and the power way higher BUT the size difference can make a difference because of the sheer shock from the round smacking the target, a slug won't punch through a plate armor but it crushed all the ribs behind it because it's so heavy. I don't know how you test it but all I can say it BOTH guns rounds have proven themselves over 100 years of stopping anything in north America. So it's probably going to be price and availability that make or break the deal. Awesome video brother!!
The 1oz slug isn't hardley any heavier than the 430gr 45-70. There are 437.5 grs in an oz.
So whatever the 12ga slug will do because "it's heavy", the 45-70 will do better
One possible advantage for the 12 G is perhaps being overlooked: it starts out(at least in some loads) at 72 caliber before any expansion, if any. (probably no expansion). I don't know about the ones in this test, but 12 G slugs are sometimes claimed to be 72 caliber. Did not look like any expansion for either of these, so starting with a bigger hole could be advantageous. Also, 3" magnum loads would further minimize the difference. Maybe.
Maybe so. A fair point.
@@AlaskanBallistics Larger MASSIVE initial Hole dia of .71 Vs 45..........= More SHOCK value and better immeadiate heme-rage / Both Hard Cast will peniteate enough IMO edge 12 GA SHOCK initial impact!
@Donald Banner Hole diameter matters little if it doesn't penetrate to the vitals. In fact it slows the bullet down to penetrate less. Hole size doesn't kill, penetration to the vitals kills.
Great show (as usual)! Keep it up!
Thank You!
Very nice display of both. One downside of those muzzlebreaks like the one on 45-70 is the ingress of snow and water. A regular barrel with some gorilla tape is better for keeping the water out of barrel.
That's s good point
Why can't you use the gorilla tape to cover the barrel AND the muzzle brake?
Never cover because of back pressure
One of the top ten safety rules... no obstructions in/on the barrel. One tape piece wouldn't hold for very long, then you use two, wrap it on tighter
The issue with taping a muzzle brake is that it's simply a good deal more difficult to keep covered than with an regular muzzle.
I've seen the carnage first person of an 300win mag that had not had it's muzzle covered during a sleet and snow condition. Water ingressed the barrel and it pealed like an banana peel.
I love the sound of that lever action! Cowboy style!
I worked in the Canadian Arctic for a few years. I preferred bringing my Winchester Defender 12 Gauge. Not because it was better for polar bear defence, but because it is better all around for survival and protection. I carried with me slugs, a couple rubber slugs, 00 Buck and some #6 birdshot. This gave me protection against polar and grizzly bears and wolverines. Plus, I could take a seal or shoot some qual if I was in a survival situation. All that with one firearm. (Correction: It was Ptarmigans up where I was working. Plus some gees to the western part of our area.)
That's a good reason. How did you waterproof your slugs?
@@AlaskanBallistics I carried the Winchester PDX1 Defender 2 3/4. So they are not rolled crimped and the centre of the leaf crimp is sealed. I am not sure how much water they could handle. They are supposed to handle very wet and rainy conditions. But I wasn’t dealing with a lot of rain in the eastern arctic in the summer. As far as dunking goes, well I was flying helicopters. If I went into the water and didn’t have floats, I would be lucky just to be alive after 20 minutes. If I had floats and they worked, well then we could all get into a raft and paddle to the nearest island relatively dry and with all our survival gear.
Makes sense... you didn't waterproof the primer pockets?
@@AlaskanBallistics - Oh that was just a smidge of primer sealant.
I don't know half of what you do. What are the rubber slugs for?
When the going get rough, you need a specialist. That´s when you can count on our Magnum Crush™. It is our hardest hitting slug, delivering a tremendous force of more than 3.800 ft/lbs. So the name Crush comes obvious. The Magnum Crush™ is designed for 3” rifled barrels. It weights a full 1½ ounce / 666 grains.
Don't va have a rifle barrel. Brenneke slugs aren't waterproof
I love these kinds of tests. However, I'm not sure why anyone would expect a bullet almost twice the diameter going much slower to penetrate as much. The seems a forgone conclusion to me providing the best bullets for each. To me, the question is how much penetration is needed. If the shotgun slug provides enough straight line penetration for a big grizzly, then it would be a much better choice due to it making a much larger wound channel. If the extra penetration is needed, then obviously the 45-70 would be much better. As far as the argument some use the the 45-70 holds more ammo, I can't imagine a person having the time to get off more than a couple shots at best in a dangerous encounter with a bear.
I think most defensive 18" and .45-70s hold the same. In fact shotguns should hold more.
Deep penetration is needed for sure
@@AlaskanBallistics Yeah I'm my only real experience is with black bear in the lower 48, and they're pretty easy to shoot through, and the grizzlies around here aren't much bigger. I know they're a lot bigger up there.
I think a lucky shot that hits it in a cns area is a person's best main hope. The only massive grizzlie attack I'm personally familiar with was with a friend of mine who is a hunting guide on Kodiak Island mostly as far as I know. The bear came out of nowhere at close range and he barely had time to get off one shot with a 375. Luckily he hit it in a perfect spot with that one shot or he would have been lucky to be alive.
Enjoy the channel and always look forward to new videos.
Thanks Eric. While these shots are lucky because of the situation, we do practice to take a much luck out as possible.
Absolutely agree
I have an inexpensive but reliable pump shotgun along with other bolt action rifles and handguns. In a SHTF situation that’s the gun that I would rely on the most. A shotgun is very versatile and tough to beat. If I lived in Alaska I’d definitely have one
I agree. Though if SHTF an ar15 or AR10 that holds more rounds and can be reloaded quicker.
Specifically for bear defense though, the .45-70 wins
45-70 for sure. Have both. Both are great. I will usually always choose the 45-70
Me too
I like the hourglass shape slugs,BRI used to make one in the 80s that would punch a hole clean through a big v8 flywheel.The Federal powershock 3 inch slugs are cheap and will outperform any lead foster.When it snows here it always causes me misery and problems then it melts off in a week.Both would be ok with me,that slug looks real good.
Damn, through a flywheel!
That BRI slug was no joke
@@conchaholic7287 original ones ,not Winchester were somewhat pointed and made of harder alloy.They claimed quarter inch mild steel penetratiin at 100 yds,550gr I think 50 cal.
I am a guide and both firearms have their application the one thing the 12 gauge does have is when it hits stuff because it's going slower and has a different energy dump then the 4570 but I have both and I use both and I have no qualms about shooting anything with either one.
Thanks for your insight. I feel the same way.
Heavy .45-70 bullets have a far higher sectional density than any 12g slug so much less likely to ricochet off a skull or ribcage it it hits at an angle, while the .45-70 is waterproof, has more reliable feeding/extraction, and their metal cases won't expand under compression in a tube mag like plastic shotgun cases will.
All good reasons for a .45-70
Thank you for watching and the comment
Good video Chuck 👍 the 45-70 is just awesome as is the 12 gauge...45-70 won this one !!
Yep. Maybe in a future battle the 12ga can win.
wat up chuck chuke always shouting u out in all his vids! Can't wait to make it back up to talkeetna and kenia
Chuke's a good guy. Hope you make it back up here some day
Both loadings appear sufficient to penetrate the frontal anatomy of a large charging bear. It is the platform that matters here. Some did mention that the Rem 870 is not drop safe. Even so I would choose the shotgun since it is designed for instinctive shooting. One has a much better chance of getting off multiple shots. A charging bear can quickly close the distance giving little time to reaction. If the 45-70 were a pump gun, that is what I would chose assuming it was as reliable as a 870 shotgun.
In camp or in a vehicle carry the shotgun with an empty chamber for drop safety. If on foot in bear county carry it with chamber loaded loosely slung across the chest for immediate access or in your hands. One can encounter a bear at just a few yards distance and no warning.
I would have liked you to have tested for penetration some of the short ARs with some of the .45 and I believe even 50 cal cartridge is out there.
Thank you for watching and the comment. Godspeed and good hunting.
I used 12ga exlusively for upland and deer for over 40yrs. I have owned 870, Ithaca 37 and Winchester 1300 I NEVER had a dropped gun discharge. First I never dropped it! Second I don't know what that guy is doing to get a discharge like that. I now shoot .308 and 06 for deer and black bear but like you I'd be comfortable with my 870 anywhere that my intended target was 0-100yds.
Mossberg used to make a shotgun in 12 gauge called the mariner. They were pretty hard to beat. I miss mine.
I think they still do
The hardest hitting slug I’ve ever used was Hastings 3” or 23/4” they went out of business. I have five left for the camp gun.
Wish i had some to test
Save them for when zombie apocalypse
Both are excellent rounds.
Agreed 👍
Great comparison!
The 45-70 is a beast, and is quite versatile for a rifle.
However, due to the overall superior versatility of the 12 gauge (turkey, fowl, deer, HD, etc) I simply get to use it more in situations outside the range.
Thus, I’m extremely proficient with my 12g pump (I prefer a pump because I tend to experiment with anything from 2 3/4 - 3.5 shells).
I can run it extremely fast, and it serves me extremely well.
I’ve never felt undergunned or unprepared when I carry my 12g.
There you go. What you are familiar with is always best. Godspeed and good hunting
Great. You finally added a metric system. Thanks.
So keep doing it? Just checking... newton meters or joules ?
@@AlaskanBallistics Do this. I prefer joules.
It’s perfect to convert feet per second to meters per second
I really doubt a bear is gonna say "Time out!" Because you hit him with a 12 gauge or a 45-70. Personally I would stick to the 45-70 but a 12 gauge slug is a very healthy alternative.
As long as you waterproof those 12ga slugs.
Great video chuck I'll take both. Small game hunting shotgun with few slugs in the pack or side of the gun . If going deep in the bush maybe 45-70 if I was taking a rifle.
I'm biased towards the 12g because if I'm out bird hunting I'll already have it with me. That being said you still have to fiddle around with trying to load the slugs in enough time to deal with the threat in time, that's where having a sidearm may be the better option.
No you dump the 12ga duck shells in his face then you draw sidearm. At short range they'll all me mostly together anyway
I'd take the 12 gauge slide action with slugs any day. It has quicker follow-up shots.
Only if you practice with it.
@@AlaskanBallistics, okay, I am faster with a 12 gauge pump. I've hunted with pump shotguns and lever rifles. The pump is faster.
Maybe you're different, but I think most would hit a moving target more often with a 12 gauge pump than a 45-70 lever loaded with +P ammo. If you're faster with the lever, please demonstrate on video.
Will do.
I’ve lived Alaska for 45 years, the 45-70 is hands down the better of the two for bear protection, it’s not even close, guaranteed!
I definitely agree
Alaskan fish and wildlife prefers 12 ga and brennekes always beat any 45-70 load on gel or cinder block tests. Not even close my ass you 45-70 blowhard.
Depends on which one you are better with for follow up shots and accuracy of course. Plus unless you are a bedwetter you will be shooting at pretty close range. I would say both would do the trick with equal effectiveness.
👍⭐️
The problem is muzzle energy isn’t always indicative of damage done. When differences are close. Defining close can very as well depending on lots of other factors as well.
What I think matters most, is which gun could you accurately shoot the fastest, and will that projectile do enough damage to kill and drop the animal with that single shot. I believe both are just as capable of killing and dropping the animal, assuming both hit the needed kill and drop spot on the animal.
Agreed
Thanks for video, i think i would stick to shotgun just because i am familiar with the 12 gage and bigger projectile!
Familiarization is key. Good reason.
As far as the 12ga being bigger it's only 7.5grs difference. It's a 1oz slug. There are 437.5 grs in an ounce. The 430gr 45-70 is more dense since it's narrower but almost the same weight
I'd go with a 12 gauge loaded with 3 inch slugs. That's just me. 12 gauge slug is a bigger and a heavier projectile that transfers more energy.
Energy transfer doesn't kill, penetration to the vitals does. How does your particular slug penetrate
@@AlaskanBallistics Yeah. Breneke USA Black Magic Magnum would be my preference.
Not waterproof. Drowned stone on a hunting trip, they wouldn't fire later. I was in bigbrown bear country too... better waterproof those shells
@@AlaskanBallistics Wow.
Excellent stuff bro
Thank you
Definitely would choose the 45/70 over the 12 gage as it was putting out 50% more energy in your current loadings. Years ago in Alaska I skinned the big brown bears that were shot. Some of the guides would use a 12 gage lead slug, but would screw a steel screw into its center to give it a steel core. It did the trick, but the lead would deform when shot threw the skull or when hitting bone.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. That's really helpful
You need hardened slugs, like the Brenneke, that penetrate and don't mushroom.
@Percy Faith too bad the Brenneke isn't waterproof
@@AlaskanBallistics Good thing I don't go fishing or swimming.
Well then you won't have salmon to eat.
Great Video !!!
Thank You Terry!
Does the slug damage the choke tube or the barrel? I don't know a lot about shotgun barrels but I thought it wasn't a good idea to shoot slugs with a choke tube installed..? I agree about the 12-gauge being much more affordable. Plus, with the different loads available (and the infinite reloads one can perform) the 12 gauge is a versatile platform. I enjoyed this video, thank you for posting it!
You have a cylinder bore come in and you're fine.
Mine have choke too, and i can remove it and put muzzle braker. I dont know is ok to shoot slug
@johanneskolenbrander8288 thanks, that's good info
1301 w/Breneke black magic or green lightning slugs is always by my side!
Thanks for the video. Love the 45-70 but regular 12g slugs with simular ballistic, are less than half the price per round.
Some "regular" slugs as you call them are too soft. I wouldn't use Walmart value pack Winchester slugs on a bear. They flatten out too quickly
K thanks
Thank you for watching and the comments my friend.
@@AlaskanBallistics : Follow up ?. Is the 9mm, .40 cal or 45 acp in HARDCAST, a good round for protection against Grisly and Polar Bears.?
Better than a sharp stick. People have successfully used it. I wouldn't go less than 10mm
Great comparison! Only problem with my 45 70 is it has a 26" barrel and is heavy times 2... I think i'd rather tote around a 12ga for up there in the big AK. But for here in Colorado, I just pack a block 10mm.
Up here you'd have an 18" guide gun type of 45-70
@@AlaskanBallistics Yep, and I'll probably get one one of these days. I like my buddy's marlin stainless guide gun in 45-70. I also like my miroku Winchester crescent butt takedown, but unless I'm hunting close by, I'd rather not tote that thing around. Too long and not maneuverable enough...
My Henry X is nice as well
I shot a young buck years ago with the monolith 32 steel heads and had the slug stop just under the skin lung shot and through the shoulder on the exit but not didn’t go completely through at 15yards. I I thought I missed since he didn’t drop right away but I had a 00buck 3” to follow it before he decided to run anywhere. 28” bps I think they’re a bit over rated imo from experience. I’ve always had full pass through with brenekes. They are beast! Edit: also does water glass not get used much for water proofing anymore?
I don't know about the water glass waterproofing. I'll have to look into it
Slug you should test: Brenneke 1-1/2oz. "Crush" rifled slug, but needs to be from a rifled barrel. Tyranosaur rated...
I think 45-70, an extreme penetrator or other solid bullet design might be interesting, Hornady makes a 500 grain steel under copper jacketed grain solid that would be smashing when loaded in a +p .45-70. With that said I think that underwood would have very good effects I know bears are big and tough but they don't hold a candle to either hippos or elephant so far as how important penetration through tough nasty hide and heavy bone that the stronger solids are designed to excel at even higher velocities.
Thanks i night try those next episode.. if they can be found
Iv hard those bullets those one nasty solids .
That is cool with the 12g👍🍻
I have a .444 marlin loaded with 300 gr hard cast flat nose at 1400 fps. Perfect bear pill.
Yep. Ought to work little slow though?
Really good video Chuck and I love your 45-70 . 👍👍
Thank you Lance!
Both will do a great job for the task of brown bear. I’ll still choose 45-70 because it’s the tool I know much better so I will personally do much better with it. Great video. Those slugs were very impressive by the way. Way better than even brenekee which is saying something.
I thought so too. I think they're more likely to be waterproof as well
@@AlaskanBallistics Thank you for adding the metric notation
You're welcome
@@AlaskanBallistics Now how about a comparison between the 12 gauge and the 45-70 Government for self-defense applications?
No because you don't use a 45-70 for self defense against humans. That's plain stupid, will over penetrate and go through multiple humans.
Thanks. From your results it's obvious the 45-70 is the winner.
Thank you for watching and commenting. Godspeed and good hunting to you and yours
Well if I had to choose, I'd bring someone else with the shotgun. Then we would be covered...lol. I think strictly for hunting large game definitely the 45/70 but for just camping and beating around the bush, shotty and an assortment of rounds in my pocket and the tube and chamber full of slugs, just in case.
Not a bad plan. Just waterproof those slugs if you go fishing
I'VE NEVER SEEN ANY ANIMAL CROSS 200 YARDS LIKE A GRIZZLY!
Thankfully, it wasn't running at us!
They're crazy fast
Let's hope I got a few seconds 45/70 , but 10 feet away 12 ga. Period ! 🤠
That slug looks like it would stop a car!! Good thing about the shotgun is you could take some fowl plus large game. I would probably also carry a10mm loaded heavy. I also find it hard to believe that large buckshot wouldn't make a charging bear run away but I have no experience with bear
Bear are tough and from beyond 25 yards buckshot, especially from an open choke wouldn't penetrate. Yeah 10ft you're fine but often bears start charging from further out.
Forgive but I still prefer a hardened 12ga slug being that most are in the .695 to .715 in diameter, compared to a 45-70 which is .456 in diameter I feel the wider area upon impact aids in the stopping. Also those steel slugs are more then likely excellent but I feel better options are available. I cast some crazy slugs from Russian molds.
Cool. Just wish better options were on the shelf here
@@AlaskanBallistics I ordered you 2 45-70 molds and sent them to the address you gave me awhile ago it's a 500 grain round nose and a 405 grain flat nose. The round nose is what I use in single shot 45-70 and 458 socom, 405 is for standard 45-70 let me know if you need help getting into casting when I come to anchorage I'll swing by if needed.
@@tacticoolfuddery6497 that's what you call a great 2a friend brother. Keep the help. Mck showing me way also. I hope figure out loads for cast see I like them down another rabbit hole we go
@@jamespugh I've been casting for awhile now. I deal with air guns and the big bore airguns it saves alot casting bullets. I enjoy vintage guns and modern sporting rifles the same hence my name. I've been working on a modern alaskan rifle in 458 socom since many of the pioneers up here would buy a gun and cast the bullets and reload for it.
Interesting. I have not recieved them. I don't cast my own lead bullets though.
I shoot 405 grainers on top of 41 grains of IMR 4198. It’s a shoulder bruiser but it’ll handle a big grizzly if the bullet lands on target. I did a Texas heart shot on a deer it went completely through it.. probably 4 feet of deer.😁
Nice
12 gauge 700 grain 3inch mag slugs, They'll stop God dam global warming..
Lol just waterproof them
@@AlaskanBallistics I know about your experience when shotgun shells got wet, but I wouldn't like to get bullets wet either. The 45/70 is definitely a great calibre with a short lever action rifle for navigating through rough Bush and for taking down big game. 12 gauge offers different shells for different uses, slugs for defence, shot shell for birds,game do both have there uses. Great channel👍👍
Valid point. Any cartridge gets wet enough isn't good
Bravo mate
Thank you
That Henry X model looks like a sweet rifle, I can feel the concussion from that break with those loads from here. I love the performance of Brenneke Slugs but the non-waterproof thing really concerns me. Especially when I am working down in Kodiak and everything is wet. How do you recommend waterproofing them? I plan on doing some testing on it once we are above freezing around here.
I only use 4570 so I don't really waterproof shells. I recommend finding a video.
There are 2 methods of waterproofing shells.
The most common is candle wax, just drip melted wax to seal up the exposed end of the slug.
The second is nail polish around the crimp. Both work equally well. You may want to use nail polish around the primer if you are going to an extra wet environment.
@@Uberragen21 they make a primer Sealant
Here is what I have used for decades: Electrician tape over the muzzle. I did the self wax thing, it gets cold and then chips, cracks and peels. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I never had a failure whether in the Aleutians, the AK. Penn. PW Sound, Bristol Bay or several other inclement places, rain or snow.
I have had problems with the Brenneke Black magic not extracting from my Mossberg 590, and the chamber was clean. So I would rather load the regular federal 3" 1 1/4 oz, softer lead but a bit more power, my shoulder can tell that.
I just watched a video about a man in kanada who was killed buy a polar bear. He had no weapons on him, he tried throwing rocks. The bear ate him with his children watching. I just love those gun laws that keep everyone safe. He had a 22 rifle in his boat, yeah right. In bear country, 12 gauge to start, 45-70 for back up, 44 magnum for the next back up and then seriously big knife. 3 1/2 magnum each has nearly 20 double oo buckshot. You won't miss.
Maybe not but you're still better off with a slug
I'm in Canada. We can have slug guns out in the bush. Just not the parks. I carry a stubby 12 gauge and 3" Rotweil Exact slugs. Factory rates it better at penetrating wild boar at over 30m than the Breneke.
Never had to use it on a grizz here in Alberta and hope I don't need it. Stubby still is instantly available on the side of the pack.
I don't know if I'd use the brenneke slugs for testing. They're like gold right now, really hard to find. I haven't seen them for sale anywhere.
Exactly... these too honestly
I’ll take my chances with a 12 gauge over a 45-70 as a guide gun. If you’re worried about water proofing you can either seal the shells or buy full brass. The benefit of the shotgun is exactly that. You can shoot bird shot if you’re lowland or waterfall hunting. Do a little double duty with the same firearm.
But you won't have time to change the shells if attacked while bird hunting
@@AlaskanBallistics you wouldn’t be able to react fast enough to put down your shotgun and pick up your lever gun either. This is all hypothetical anyways. You’d just do a breach load of a slug anyway if your tube is full of birdshot.
That's why I carry my shotgun in my hands and my bird gun in my pack
@@AlaskanBallistics so you would carry 2 shotguns? One with slugs or buck shot and the other with bird shot?
Nope carry a .45-70 in my hands, and a shotgun in my pack. Though we mostly use a .22lr for grouse here
Both are great for Alaska. It comes down to personal preference 😊
Pretty much.
Never forget; A brown bear charged 7 hunters, who all opened fire and took out the bear's heart & lungs, yet went on to fight 5 more minutes and kill 5 of the 7 hunters.
Exactly. CNS HITS are essential. You got a link to that story?
@@AlaskanBallistics ruclips.net/video/EpzN6dYKLWA/видео.html
He speaks about it shortly towards the beginning, then goes into much greater detail towards the end. I recommend watching the whole thing. I found it very interesting, and put some hair on my chest.
If a bear is just about to kill you,
it must be killed in the skull. Not in the body. The lever must be racked as quickly as possible and all 7 of the shells must be poured into the bear skull or it can still reach you and bite your neck in half or bite your head and kill you in one second.
Like one reply comment reader says, you must drop fast to one knee, and really aim. A bear will charge, stop, make you think it's turning to go away, and then charge again rapidly for the kill (to kill you).
If the bear surprises you and appears out of thin air in heavy brush or turns a corner only yards from you on a trail, don't freeze and just stand there. Instantly drop to a knee and aim for the skull and keep the aiming on until the bear turns uninterested or get ready to start shooting. The 1st shot must count.
@@AlaskanBallistics
Indeed, my question is what happens if you miss a critical area on a grizzly with this ammo? Apparently, it's too spicy to ask such questions on this platform.
I couldn't find that story but I found one where two men were charged one was head on and his friend took it down with a broadside double lung shot. Sad, because she was already wounded with a cub in tow before the encounter according to the game warden who investigated. The man who was charged by the bear used a Glock Model 20 10mm 180 grain FMJ ammo. Three of the seven rounds he got off hit the bear but his friend saved him with that broadside shot. Grizzlies are tough.
I have often wondered what the larger buckshot rounds would do to a charging bear or wild hog.
I suppose there is a flexibility advantage to the shotty.
Maybe. You probably wouldn't get the incapacitation with buck shot because it penetrates less from spreading within the animal if all you have is a body shot.
Good twelve gauge buck would blow away a charging bear, I am quite sure
12 ga buck won't penetrate if the bear is far enough away when you start to shoot.
I found 00 buck had no effect on charging hogs excess of 250lbs, even at close range.
It spreads too quickly to penetrate deeply
I make my own 500 grain spitzer type 45.70govt they hit hard but I load them manually into the chamber on my lever gun because they are pointy and I’m not sure they won’t get pushed to far in the case
Fun load. Glad you're safe. Godspeed