Horace Harding Subway | Lines that Never Were
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- In this video, we will talk about the Horace Harding Subway.
Sources/Further Reading
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_in...
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_in...
www.wikiwand.com/en/Proposed_...
www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_Ne...
Petition Link: www.change.org/get7traintoNEQ...
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The reason why the Woodhaven Blvd station had provisions to make it into an express stop was so it can connect with the former & abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch to bring trains to the Rockaways. There was an old sign there that stated “to Jamaica & Rockaways.”
That's very interesting, thanks for the information!
@@jointransitassociation
You had the same thing at 65th Street station.
If an elevated Astoria line extension to LaGuardia Airport ever happens, I would extend the line further along the Grand Central Parkway to The Whitestone Expressway, with a stop at Seaver Way, north of Citi Field. After Seaver Way, the line would run east and descend from an elevated structure into a tunnel, and run along northern boulevard until Main Street, where it will turn south and stop at Roosevelt Avenue, with a connection to the 7 line and the LIRR. South of Roosevelt Avenue, the line would run along Main Street with stops at Cherry Avenue and Booth Memorial Avenue before turning east onto the Long Island Expressway, where the line would ascend to an elevated structure. On this stretch there would be stops at Kissena Blvd, 164th Street, Utopia Parkway, Francis Lewis Blvd, Bell Blvd, Springfield Blvd, and the final stop at Hampton Blvd. This line would be served by the N/W trains, or maybe the R train if the Queens Blvd line ever gets deinterlined.
That is pretty interesting, though I think that running a circuitous route will prompt some riders to transfer onto the 7, but if there is an Astoria express service, then that might help keep those riders and not overcrowd the 7.
Might as well run an EL over the Long Island Expressway all the way to Douglaston. Make every station at specific overpasses turn into bus/intermodal stations.
The actual line was supposed to be an EL east of Alley Pond Park.
Intriguing presentation on a needed expansion to the NY Subway system. Thanks for taking the time to prepare and post this!
I feel the Woodhaven Blvd station being a express station is great as not only It's close to Queens Mall but also less time just to take the M/R and waiting for the other stations just to get to Woodhaven Blvd.
The Port Washington Line is the perfect candidate for a regional rail conversion: short distance, dense stations, the area up to Bayside should be considered for a lower fare closer to the subway, like 4 dollars (unless it already has that)
We are advocating for fares on that line to be reduced to $2.75 within city limits and for service to be buffed. If you want, read report for more information on the 7 train project.
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2022/05/flushing-regional-rail-extending-the-7-train/
@@jointransitassociation Do you know of any local groups pushing for those changes to the port Washington branch? Id love to get involved. The city ticket system now just isn't good enough, it's $10 to Bayside during commuting hours, whereas the 7 to flushing is only 2.75. seems unfair that we have to pay 4x the cost because the city doesn't want to provide decent transit 😭 I feel like that would be a good fix, but really a northern boulevard or LIE line would make more sense.
@@Chris-zi1we it's a different product that comes with a conductor collecting tickets (safety) and cushioned seats. Of course it would cost more. Also who's going to pay for these new tunnels and terminals they just opened for LIRR
@@mdmfadTaxpayers already did. That's why it's in the capital budget, not operations. Fares go only toward operations.
Also this is one of those things where Tech Transit Association advises not to cling tightly to tradition. LIRR can choose to save on costs by having fewer conductors and using fare gates (which gets rid of the problem of inconsistent ticket checks). Then they can attract ridership (which translates to fares) by increasing frequencies.
But with the schedule they've had since late February, it looks like all they want to do is shoot themselves in the foot.
The terminal station of the BMT Horace Harding Blvd line was supposed to be Marathon Parkway according to the 1939 plan for the second system. I also know that there was supposed to be a Parsons Blvd terminal station for local trains, and a Francis Lewis Blvd terminal for express trains according to the 1929 plan for the second system.
That is very interesting, considering that Parsons Blvd does not have a bridge over the expressway today.
There's another possibile remnant / provision at Woodhaven Blvd - the passageway that leads to Hoffman Drive may have been intended to connect to a second station in that location. Also, supposedly the vehicular express lanes that span the length of the station above from Eliot Avenue to 57 Avenue along Queens Blvd may have originally been space set aside for the construction of the additional line: the lanes were built in 1940 and planned to span almost the entire length of Queens Blvd although the Queens Blvd line was built just prior. Also I remember reading somewhere that there was a plan to send the line down 73 Avenue instead and end somewhere near Alley Pond Park.
This plan has been needed for decades... Also, automate the trains and put in CBTC while you're at it. That would create additional capacity and future proof the system...
For the Horace Harding expressway you could build the queens super express that take trains from 2nd Ave and Broadway express. This would allow for a proper line to the rockaways and a possibility for the lie to be 4 tracked. With Local M trains and express 2nd ave trains on the line. Then the area near douglaston gets turned into a park and ride and multiple new apartment buildings.
Two poison words. Robert Moses. I’m all for the Horace Harding line to be built. Northeastern Queens needs frequent more subway service and not just from the LIRR Port Washington branch. I thought I saw a split in the 7 line one turning down Kissena Blvd into Horace Harding and the other giving College point service. That’s something that should happen as well because College Point is another transit desert area. For extending the N/W to LaGuardia, I would propose sending down Astoria blvd, run on 23rd Avenue a little bit and turn on 94th street running into terminal B. This way, East Elmhurst can have some train service as well.
There is a great need for a Woodhaven Blvd line whether it be through subway or light rail/street car going down Woodhaven into Cross Bay and finally into Rockaway Beach. Especially if there is a possibility of the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch not being brought back because of mayor Adam’s approval of Queensway 🤨 And I agree that Woodhaven should be an express stop due to the popularity of that area.
I don't consider those two words to be poison. The Long Island Expressway was planned before the World's Fair opened. Not everybody who was going to go there was going to go by train. The MTA tried to extend the BMT Astoria Line to LaGuardia, but faced too much NIMBYism. I'm opened to the idea of the Horace Harding Subway being connected to IRT Flushing Line, but building any subway line under the Long Island Expressway would force all that traffic onto local streets, which can barely handle the traffic that they've got.
Queens boulevard lines are packed!!! Anything that expands capacity is welcome.
It should also be mentioned that Woodhaven stop is next to the most profitable, per square foot shopping center.
It should be elevated to save cost. It should include a peak express track to make the line more attractive and convenient for passengers.
I like the idea off of the Astoria line. The Queens Blvd is over capacity.
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL
Same
Me too
We appreciate it!
Funny, I had an idea for a Brooklyn-Queens Railway, which would have not only travel elevated along Horace Harding Expressway, but also would have travel further southwest to Downtown Brooklyn via Flushing Avenue.
Thank You!
You're welcome! Thanks for watching!
As a kid in the 60s, I lived on Utopia Parkway just one block south of Horace Harding Blvd. To get to the nearest subway, we had to take a bus ride (17A) south past St. John's University through Jamaica Estates to the E & F trains at 169th and Hillside Avenue. I used to fantasize about the city building a Utopia Parkway subway line with a secret entrance from my basement in order to remedy the long time it took to get to Manhattan via bus and train. Of course, a Horace Harding subway would have been the better solution and Utopia Parkway probably would have had a station due to its proximity to Francis Lewis H.S. (if not, 188th Street to serve the Fresh Meadows Housing Development).
I agree with the idea of having a branch to LIe and converting woodhaven into a express station since I travel often through both lines and take the q17 and 88 buses and waiting for an local train at Jackson is annoying at times. My only problem might be the noise when the trains go by.
Hey Joshua v and I agree with you
Hi Joshua V, the elevated viaducts that we are proposing are not going to be from the early 20th century. We are proposing concrete viaducts similar to those used on the JFK Airtrain, as those are quiet.
I would have to agree because I gotta go all the way to the 179/169 st station to the F or flushing main st to the 7
I Think La Guardia Airport should also be served. There are a demand of a subway line there.
I just watched your 7 train video due to the mention of such an extension and the census data mentioned at 5:26. In light of that, the 7 extension as proposed here is most compelling to me (and would be amazing for students going to Queens College, Queensborough Community College, LaGuardia Community College, the massive Francis Lewis High School…).
The mention of the Astoria line extension is also apt; many people still demand an extension to LGA (and of course the Astoria Blvd alignment was proposed before LGA existed). I think a further extension of Astoria directly into College Point and Whitestone would be more compelling because it would intercept bus riders on their way to/from the 7 anyway (meaning shorter bus rides - and probably less crowded rides for those who work in Flushing), and there would be fewer stops compared to the 7 local. Also, isn't it true that a lot of airport workers live in College Point and Whitestone anyway?
It's a good thing the highway widening never happened though. 😅
They had a Subway that went off the G train at 71 ave in Forest Hills. in 1939 for the world's Fair. And the line followed the same as the Long Island Exp way dose now. And they was Horace Harding Blvd Station on the line witch was followed by the World Fair stop right after the world's Fair in 1939 . It was done away with to make way for the Long Island Exp way. It was called the IND world's Fair Line
What do you think on the proposal expanding the 7 to jersey or Staten Island
your videos are pretty interesting
Could you talk about the E extension that was suppose to happen? I live in jamaica and if that extension existed it would be super helpful because the buses at jamaica center get really crowded sometimes
Yes, we will talk about the Southeast Queens line sometime in the future.
@@jointransitassociation awesome thanks
It will never happen, Joel, ride the bus.
@@pineyforkpress shut up bruh
☠️
I didn't realize that they had plans to run a subway line on the LIE. Off course, if they revive the plans, I won't live long enough to see it completed. Were there any plans on extending the F train all the way to like Queens Village?
Thanks for watching, and yes, there were plans to extend the F all the way out to Springfield Blvd (aka the Hillside Ave extension). We may do a video on that.
@@jointransitassociation I grew up in Queens Village and I would like to see that video also!
Two big words for the reasoning of the line never existing. Robert Moses. He’s known for hating mass transit. He’s also the reason for no trains running on the Verrazano Bridge to Staten Island
All of those could have been subway lines in Queens will be awesome.
I would extend the seven train all the way to Little Neck Parkway area, Nassau county border, and on the other, and extend the 7 to New Jersey either Hoboken or Secaucus
Extending the 7 makes alot of sense, riders who had to take buses to main st would instead board the train in bayside. A 7 extension would also make a transit commute to flushing more attractive, which could reduce traffic congestion.
Thanks for watching! Yes, we are actively trying to make the 7 Train Project a reality. If you like, you can sign our petition here: www.change.org/get7traintoNEQueensfeasibilitystudy.
Extend the 7 to Bayside and send the 11 trains to 20th college point whitestone elevated line.
There is a messanine in flushing main street that blocks further expantion in queens
That's why part of the L.I.E in the city has a wide lane in between the 2 lanes cause that was supposed to be where a subway line was supposed to run on in the middle or the L.I.E right?
The LIE was never built with provisions for subway use. When Robert Moses built the expressway, he ignored the pleas of everyone and did not include provisions for a subway route in the expressways median.
@@TheRailLeaguer the L.I.E. used to be a local road before right and they turned it into what it is now right. How about the L.I. part of the L.I.E. did that used to be local too or was that always an expressway?
@@arturocuizon69The Long Island section I’m not 100% sure.
5:10 I’m against the seven line having two eastern branches after Main Street,the branch will three stations would be the purple s train and add a lower level to Main Street and not interfere with the main line and the trains will have access to the corona yard and this shuttle will only terminal on one track at Main Street and cross under the 11 train that’ll also terminal at the new lower level or new platforms connected to the existing platforms,the 11 train would have its own mini yard and the purple s train can use it,can be extended to Mets stations during home games
We don't think a lower level is the best option. You would have to build pretty deep to not disrupt the existing platforms, and deep stations would make the project extremely expensive. If you want to go the spur route, then I suggest separate platforms at 41st Ave, which is better in our opinion, as the route via Kissena Blvd will not involve a sharp curve. There, if demand exists, we could extend that spur to connect to the mainline 7.
@@jointransitassociation at Mets station because it has four tracks and the extra one can be used for the 7 extended trains to access corona yard,7 express doesn’t run at night,the 11 train will have its own mini yard to not disprut the 7 unless it’s needing corona yard for repairs
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2 We don't think creating a shuttle is a good idea. Sure it will add a merge point, but with proper timing, this should not be an issue. There are already local trains that end at Mets Willets/111th St, and the 7 already run at 29 tph. Also, creating a shuttle and ending it at Flushing will cause riders to walk to the existing narrow platforms at Main St, which is already an overcrowded station. This would overwhelm the station to the point where it would delay service, which is something the project is supposed to avoid.
omg right under my window
Woodhaven Blvd would be a great transfer station
01:30 Who in Hades thought _that_ was a good idea?
Tech Transit Association since the LIE used to be Horace Harding Blvd a local road in NYC does that mean the LIE used to turn into a local road in the city or no because the LIE wasn't around yet back then?
Any major project would take decades to complete.
@Robert Gottesman: What do you expect? this is America, land of the lazy free: it takes decades to plan, start, and build up mass transit projects for the public, but it takes overnight success to build up condominiums in a single bound: Instant Quickbrix (as in Instant Oatmeal) fortified with glass, mortar, steel, and more than a heaping helping of ig'nance. . .sad part is that it's always a 'New York' problem.
2:20 northeast queens line stations are too far apart
It wouldn’t work. The 17, 88 and 30 are sufficient. And all of those homeowners along Horace Harding would protest. The 7 needs to be left alone. The train starts off crowded from Main Street. If it comes into Flushing crowded from Bayside or wherever, that’s going to be a nightmare.
The 7 Train Project would work and we have been on those buses, and let us tell you, they are always packed. Moreover, the LIE branch would also parallel the Q27, one of the most heavily used bus routes in Queens. Finally, all of those Northeastern bus routes coming into Flushing already make Flushing extremely congested, so if we can extend the 7 into two branches serving the key bus corridors, it would greatly reduce congestion at Flushing.
The 7 train should be expanded. The reason why the 7 train is crowded into Main St is because you can only run Main St 60 to 70 percent of the Flushing Line's capacity. A huge number of 7 trains end at 111 St/Mets Willets because there is not enough capacity at Main St to turn them back. By building that LIE branch to Bayside, you would increase the number of trains coming into Flushing.
To further relieve congestion on the 7, we also propose regional rail service on Port Washington. By upgrading the branch and having it run every 6 to 10 minutes, we can create a rail line half the capacity of the 7, thus freeing up a lot of the 7's capacity (a crucial part of the 7 Train Project).
Here is the 7 Train Project. Hope this information helps!
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2022/05/flushing-regional-rail-extending-the-7-train/
your forgetting the 65 the 25 the 34 the 27
Bury LIE underground, and make a right of way for a transit line (pick your mode)
i argee with you extend the line to the lie
Very defensive concerns sir.
Bus Service should be increased and expanded in NE Queens. NYS and NYC just don't have the money for ANY of these projects.
With record people leaving NYC and NYS, the crime problem, the homeless problem, and don't forget the infiltration of illegal aliens creating financial problems any excess funds will and should be used for Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion with reparations.
We disagree that NYC does not have the money. We do have the money, especially when we had $102 billion for the city budget and when De Blasio increased substantially during his time in office. If you want more revenue, use TIF, which has been used to fund a portion of Chicago's Red-Purple Modernization Project.
Also, no matter how grand a BRT you will build (see Q52/Q53 and M15), you will never create the capacity that a rail line could. Increasing bus service is only a band aid solution as the population of Queens continues to grow. The LIE corridor is an extremely congested route, and with three bus lines running packed buses every few minutes during rush hours
And seriously, what is up with crime baiting? Is anyone going to deny crime is up? No. Is it up enough to warrant a massive "War on Crime" like what Adams is doing? No. In fact, Adams has increased police funding and crime continues to increase because the police do not solve the root cause of crime, they are here to respond to crime. If you really want to solve the crime issue, invest more in mental health.
Finally, shouldn't we build and run more transit when we accept more refugees? The population of Queens is up 8 percent, but the last transit line was built in 2001, 22 years ago. Since then, ridership on the 7 and E have blown up, with both lines seriously overcapacity. CBTC installation is only going to go so far. Like, try getting on the 7 express during rush hour, and you will know what we mean. Also expanding transit is a good way to increase equity, diversity, and inclusion because many neighborhoods that benefit from expanded subway service are low income, and people of color. There is a reason why a Harvard study linked commute times as the single most important factor in one's pursuit to get out of poverty. With a swipe of Metrocard, one can get from their house to where all the jobs are.
Unfortunately, the subway brings crime, which already is out of control. These quiet neighborhoods will most likely fight back.
Where are your statistics for this claim?