Staten Island Subway | Lines that Never Were
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2022
- In this video, we will talk about the Staten Island Subway.
Sources/Further Reading
www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_in...
www.wikiwand.com/en/Proposed_...
www.gretschviking.net/GOSIRTPa...
www.gretschviking.net/GOSIRTPa...
www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/ny...
As a retired Motorman NYC Transit ‘B’ Division RTO whom operated on the 4th Avenue line and the Culver line you hit this out of the ball park . Throughly researched and all correct !
A VERY HONORABLE POSITION! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO THE GREAT CITY OF NEW YORK!!
The Staten Island Subway Tunnel needs to be built in the future. Great video!
It almost was - however POLITICS of the 1920's STOPPED IT DEAD om its tracks. It was suppose to run from the present Bay Ridge 95 Street in Brooklyn which is the closest point to Staten Island, but POLITICAL PRESSURE put a kibosh on same. Some construction work was done, however work stopped and was NEVER resumed. Then you wonder why there are just too many express bus lines between Manhattan and Staten Island !!!
I think the narrator was very succinct and explicit in describing a situation as it occurred over the years, with a view to shedding some needed light, as to why the NYC Transit System finds itself in the unenviable spot in which it exists today.
If they can build the tunnel between France and UK through the English Channel, then Staten Island and Brooklyn subway tunnel should be connected.
@@ahsanurr4219 They almost did back in 1925. But POLITICS again stopped it from going forward due to SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS back then. This tunnel was also partially already built from the existing BMT's Bay Ridge 95 Street (R) line terminal station down to 101 Street where it would enter a pre-fabricated tunnel tubes or tunnels to go under the Narrows Channel into Staten Island over to the SIRTOA's abandoned South Shore Line, and use ti to terminate at Wentworth Avenue. But POLITICS stopped this project DEAD on its tracks, and was never resumed, but the vehicular Verrazano Bridge was built instead of this very badly need tunnel. Now talks are back in the works to resume same, since the MTA's express bus system in Staten island has essentially exhausted itself for the past 55 years since 1968 when the R9X express bus line was established between Lower and Midtown Manhattan and Staten island's Tysens Lane and Hylan Blvd, which charged a fare doubled that of the local transit fares back then.
Those tunnels still exists; They're capped off
I randomly searched "Staten Island Railway" from boredom and found this video. I agree with the simplest solution, the R to Staten Island. I never heard of all of this history, it is very interesting!
A metro line into staten island, would bring more residents. It means that developers would build more homes and business spaces, that would create jobs.
Just extend the SIRT into Brooklyn and build up the north shore branch again just like when the SIRT was a subsidiary of the B&O
Yup. The alignment is there.
We don't think that is a great idea. First of all, the North Shore branch sits very close to the sea and nearly 70 years of deterioration has made it extremely hard to rebuild. Next, if the North Shore branch was to be reactivated, half of its ridership potential would be wasted, as half of its catchment area is water. Finally, a reactivated North Shore branch would be very difficult to maintain, as rising sea levels would constantly damage rail equipment.
This is one of the few areas that we believe BRT would be better than rail. A BRT here would be less difficult to maintain, be better suited to serve the riders (remember, having half of your catchment area be water would lower ridership), and can double as a seawall. If you want a rail line, build the rail line further inland (Forest Ave or Castleton Ave alignments would work well).
I’m a native Staten Island and I know I speak for many of us when I say we absolutely do NOT want a direct connection to the rest of the city. If that were to happen if would be the demise of a very unique island with a rich history. Right now Staten Island looks nothing like the other boroughs and we’d like to keep it that way.
@@jointransitassociation the tracks are literally in the water as of liek 30 years ago so theres no reactivating that shit lmaoo
@@ejne2 ok fool
As a proud alumnus of Brooklyn Tech, I was pleased to find this in my feed today. I will be checking out your other videos as well.
Barry Berman, MD, Class of 1972.
The tunnel from St. George to Manhattan is one long ride
Looking at the map as a kid I always thought just extend the R line into Staten island. Even if it's just one stop in Staten Island, it connects the island to the rest of the city. And yes it would mean a long trip to Manhattan since the R runs local. Best solution for that, add an express train to run on the R tracks, like a T, a P or a Y train. As the video said, some R stations are already designed to expand to 4 tracks. You would only need to expand a couple stops after 59th St it can run on the N express tracks
I totally agree with you - however POLITICS of the 1920's prevent it from ever coming to fruition.
Or via a new red hook line to 2nd ave.
@@qjtvaddictIn essence, a T train stopping at State Street (same station as 1 and R), then travel to Red Hook, then to 59th Street - 4th Avenue, then to Saint George and the Staten Island Mall. I dig it.
VERY well researched and accurate !!!! Too bad it was never built. Excellent video. Thank You.
Thanks for watching!!!
You should also make a separate short video about the SI North Shore Branch. North SI has a minority-driven population, many of them who rely on public transpo including sluggish busses thru slow NYC traffic to get to St. George. A simple train line would immensely speed up this commute.
As someone who used to live near the North Shore, I can confidently say that the North Shore Branch should not be reactivated as a rail line. It is way too close to the water, as suffered 60+ years of water damage, and as a result would be extremely expensive to maintain. BRT would work better and can be also used as a sea wall. If you want your rail line, build it deeper in Staten Island, like on Forest Ave. You can serve more riders and not be in an extremely corrosive environment.
@@jointransitassociationAs far as being too close to the water, look at the Rockaway line across Jamaica Bay....
Rebuilding the line in its same exact location would mean elevating it well above flood levels; either a tellerite-based earthen embankment or viaduct would work just fine. This would be expensive, of course, but once constructed, the rail line will pay for itself very quickly, much faster than the ROI for a busway.
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x You mean the line that got washed out during Hurricane Sandy? Building your lines near an eroding coastline is not the way to do it.
And even when you have infinite money, still no. Half of the catchment area is literally water, which means your ridership targets are going to be cut in half. I said over and over, if you want your train line on the North Shore, build it inland, to limit erosion, and to increase ridership projections.
I like the idea of an 8 train from Staten Island to Eastchester that, while not going to Manhattan, intercepts the R at Bay Ridge Ave, N at Ft Hamilton Pkwy, D at 62nd St, F at Ave I, Q at Ave H, 2·5 at Brooklyn College, 3·L at Livonia Ave, LIRR at East New York, A·C·J·L·Z at Broadway Jct, M at Middle Village, 7·E·F·M·R at Jackson Heights, N·W at Astoria, 6·B*·NH at Hunts Point and 2·5 at East 180th St. That means it connects all the MTA rail services except 1·4·G·HAR·HUD & whatever LIRR trains don't have through running to Brooklyn Atlantic.
*Extend the B to Throggs Neck to provide a crosstown service in the Bronx.
10000000% agree the MTA should connect other trains to Staten island l know for a fact that would happen in the near future. Taking the ferry to and from the city takes forever plus with people blocking the view it so annoying. 16:19 is the best way to connect due to it near brooklyn.
Fabulous presentation on a project that is at least half a century past due. Thanks for preparing and posting this.
Here's hoping that someday this (and many other needed NY Subway projects) come to existence.
If they can build the tunnel between France and UK through the English Channel, then SI and Brooklyn subway tunnel should be connected.
I feel like we should build a subway to Staten Island. Let me explain:
My idea for a Staten Island Subway would be possible with a “de-interlining” plan inspired by vanshnookenraggen (if you know who that is), which would remove conflicts between 6th Avenue trains and Broadway line trains north of DeKalb Avenue and at 36th Street.
First of all, I would have the Broadway Express trains stop at the DeKalb Avenue outer tracks, the Broadway Local trains stop on the inner tracks (just like today), and the B and D trains bypass the station altogether. The B and D would run 4th Avenue local together until 36th Street and the N and Q would run along Brighton (N express and Q local).
All Broadway local service would run via West End. I remember hearing something about how this would make the current R train route too long, so to solve this, the R train would be truncated to Whitehall Street while the W train runs to Brooklyn, along West End to Coney Island.
South of 36th Street, new switches would be constructed to allow for express trains to stop at local stations south of there. The D train would handle local service at these stations and run to 95th Street, while the B train would run via Sea Beach to Coney Island.
This de-interlining plan would allow for the D train to be extended to Staten Island. It would make the most sense to extend an express train there, thinking about the size of Staten Island (the Staten Island Railway is almost as long as the 1 train!).
We have that mentioned, but instead of having the D be sent to Staten Island, we have the B going to Staten Island. You are just switching the trains around, which is not necessary, as the B and D run express between Atlantic and 36th under the plan.
@@jointransitassociation ohhh okay.
And speaking of Vanshnookenraggen, we highly recommend you read the article we wrote with him on his blog about a 7 train extension!
@@jointransitassociation wow so you and vanshnookenraggen know each other?
@@KingofGamingAndTrains456 We have worked together on a couple projects, including two rallies for improved transit.
Cool video! Amazing amount of detail, well done
Why not extend the Interborough Express under the harbor to Saint George and connect to the SIRT, and perhaps later on reviving the northern branch to go over the Kill Van Kull at Goethals to Elizabeth NJ and Newark Airport?
Don't rush yourself.
Staten island a direct link to rahway via an old freight line. This would solve 2 issues. Access to the NEC and direct to NYC. The staten island is about 50 years to late.
The best way to do this in the modern day is to extend the R to Grasmere and implement a feeder bus network (and some BRT) connecting the whole island to the train. Also make that freight tunnel and bring the IBX through it to Staten Island and New Jersey
Yeah I see a lot of people take the R to the end and bus into Staten Island. SIM buses seem to be the best way to go though.
They need to make these subway 🚇 tunnels in the future. Staten Island is definitely an in tapped source for the economy of NYC. Some one get this video to Mayor Adams so he can make this happen.
Besides express buses and the subway, there are three local buses that go from Staten Island to Bay Ridge over the VZ Bridge and connect with the R train at 86th Street, the S53, the S79 and the S93, I've been using them for over 30 years. Beofre 1997 and the introduction of the MetroCard we were in a two-fare zone, but now you get a free transfer to the subway, so it's not that bad. From where I live in Grasmere it usually takes me less than 20 minutes. And for nearly a decade you can take your bicycles on these buses.
Great Video Thank You 🙏
To me, the city ends where the subway ends. So it's always been hard to see SI as part of the city. I would absolutely love to be able to travel to SI via subway. But it's hard to imagine such a suburban place ever allowing it to happen. They'd probably sooner secede. SI did try to secede in the past.
I agree, and that's also why I don't like the idea of the subway entering Nassau County, Westchester Country, or New Jersey.
@@DTD110865 mta trains already run all thru Westchester Nassau and Suffolk but I still get what your saying
@@fredflintlocks9445 Yes, Metro-North, and the Long Island Rail Road.
as suburban as we are, we still have the SIRR to the ferry and the buses are pretty decent here. I do hope to see us connected to the rest of the city one day, however!
L
good point on the G going to coney island , coney to williamsburg sounds cool
it's longgggg over do they need to build that subway connection to staten island
I lived right on the Staten Island Prince's Bay train station for years back in the 1980s.
What do you think to instead of connecting to the subway, the new tunnel should connect to the IBX orbital line? It would give great connections and not make the new link reliant on the subway for service, headways etc, disconnecting it from the need to upgrade the subway to make it feasible?
That is an interesting concept, but most Staten Island workers are heading to Manhattan, so we would want to give them a one seat seat ride. However, a considerable portion of workers are heading into Brooklyn, so what would work best in our opinion is to extend the R to Staten Island. But if you are willing to build a transfer to the BMT 4th Ave line, the IBX option could work.
@@jointransitassociation in the long run, probably both are going to be needed - but the fact that there is no real ring line in nyc and afaik not even any plans for the ibx to eventually become one is baffling to me... in a way it seems almost like an inevitability to one day bring the ibx to nj via both staten island and ~the gw bridge ...or am i missing something?
(ps: thanks for the great video btw! cheers from stockholm from subscriber #1700, apparently!)
I am creating a fantasy Staten Island Line that incorporates some of these details. First the G and X lines run on a Forest/Castleton branch, each using a different tunnel to Brooklyn. The G uses what is called the Red Hook tunnel, a 3.5 mile long underwater tunnel between St. George and Red Hook Brooklyn. It makes a stop in Red Hook before heading up on the existing Smith Street Subway. The X uses the Owls Head Tunnel between Tompkinsville and 67th Street Bay Ridge. The X is an extension of the Triboro RX. Two other lines use the existing Staten Island Railway ROW, the W and T lines. The W uses the Owls Head Tunnel. It is a branch off the 4th Avenue subway. The T uses the Red Hook Tunnel, but makes no stops in Brooklyn because it branches west to Governors Island and then Manhattan, eventually heading up 2nd Avenue. The Staten Island Railway ROW would contain 4 tracks between Clifton and Great Kills. The W would not use this ROW past Clifton, but run as a subway under Bay Street before heading to the tunnel. The T would use the ROW up to Tompkinsville. Storage yards would also be needed. The existing St. George Terminal could be one facility. Another one would be in Tottenville at Mill Creek where the old Nassau Plant once existed. The Clifton shops would still be used for maintenance. Finally the HBLR ROW should have been used by PATH extending over the Bayonne Bridge meeting up with the subway at Forest Avenue. A nice plan that not only benefits Staten Islanders, but residents in the other boroughs as well as New Jersey.
Great video. Every time when I got off the ferry from Manhattan, I would always look down at subway cars and tracks. I would always wish, that the Mta would reopen the North shore line. Even sending a line to New Jersey, using the outer crossing bridge, and the SI Mall. The Federal Money is there, its that's someone in government can push for it. with some public support.
SIR doesn’t even need to be apart of the division B/A system it can be linked to the IBX or via NJ
True; however, it'd be just plain BETTER if it were part of the B1-B2 division, as access to the Coney Island shops will be granted.
Build 2 connections. One that uses the jersey Olán and connects Staten Island railway to Hudson Bergen light rail (and upgrades if all to metro) and one that extends the R
It should be noted that, the current SIR headways are driven by the ferry schedule. So the 5-minute headways on a SI subway system would only be feasible if a faster, non-ferry-interchange service was made available. Ridership studies are needed to determine what service is really sustainable. If it's just commuter service, that's one thing ... an express to a very few selected stops may be all that's required.
Extend the proposed 2nd Ave tunnels directly to St. George for a connection to SIRR, but continue it under the old North Shore branch to serve those populated, but currently unserved areas. The service would be entirely underground, tunnel-bored, and construction could be conjoined with the ongoing 2nd Ave project. Further, build a complex at Hanover Sq that connects to Bowling Green and further connects with the So Ferry/Whitehall St complex. The creates xfer access to both IRT and BMT services for inbound SI customers giving them access to nearly the entire island of Manhattan.
SMART
Your presentation omitted the Narrows tunnel project that was begun by Mayor Hylan in 1922. Shafts were built on the Brooklyn side at 68th Street and Shore Road and in Staten Island under the ferry terminal. [The top of the Brooklyn shaft was visible until the park was landscaped above it in recent years.] Construction ceased in 1925 which was also when Mayor Hylan failed in his bid for a third term. In the 1990s, I found a trove a reports and documents related to the unrealized project in the sub-basement of the Manhattan Municipal Building (1 Centre Street). Some say the powerful Pennsylvania Railroad did not want the rival B&O Railway [owners of the Staten Island Railway) entering geographic Long Island where the Pennsylvania Railroad-owned Long Island Railroad held sway. Lawrence Stelter, 6/20/2024
Long overdue
The original Bayonne Bridge had actual provisions for trolleys so it definitely could have had modern light rail from Staten Island to NJ. Nj has built a light rail that goes to Exchange place in Jersey City where a PATH train get you to WTC in Downtown.
The bride was demolished and a new bridge built much higher to allow big ships to pass under.
Too steep now for light rail and another lane added instead of rail provision ?
No !
The rail provision was retained. So the cheapest way to get in is over a Port Authority Bridge to a NJ transit light rail back to port Authority Path trains to manhatten…
No tunnel required
Absolutely 💯 That was da plan I think in 2003 to run the light rail to Staten Island over the Bayonne Bridge up the West Shore.
Great job! BTHS Structural '81
We shall go with the second choice of sending the G into Statem Island and reveling in its evolution from a crosstown train to a whole 3 borough train. Can you imagine BedStuy, Greenpoint, Clinton Hill residents saying their gonna take the G train to Staten Island?
The 1 train heading into St George is also so ideal.
At Essex st there is one trackbed on the J that goes with owners spring st
Yes a track that ain’t there
I beg your pardon?
I think you could have rail from Manhattan to Staten Island by putting a station with bus connections on the Conrail tracks and building a junction between them and the NEC in Elizabeth. It's far from ideal, but that would be the quickest and cheapest way.
0:41 that should be an extension of the future IBX to Staten Island. With congestion pricing coming, Staten Islanders are severely disenfranchised from public transit to the other 4 boroughs
Interborough express starts with a light rail instead of heavy rail subway line.
I'm a life-long NY'er, the last 23 years of which have been on Staten Island. I don't see any of these proposals happening. The "great" minds that "envisioned" the big ferris wheel that wasn't closed off the possibility of re-activating the defunct North Shore branch. Under-water tunnels were too costly 100 years ago and are still too costly today.
That was definitely a big mistake. They put the parking garage for the Empire Outlets right where the North Shore Line terminal was supposed to be. Last time the North Shore BRT was brought up, they instead proposed running it on Richmond Terrace to the current St. George ramps. That would add time over the previous plan.
"Too costly"?! Look at the automotive boondoggles Robert Moses inflicted upon the entire city, and most, if not all, of Long Island....
Now THAT'S costly, and continues to be so!
I suppose to re-open the Bergen Street lower level and make Smith and ninth express stop and make two island platforms in the tracks for the G express and some outside tracks for G local and the F train runs via the Bergen Street lower level to Staten Island and the G express will start from Smith and 9th to Kings Highway or Avenue X
SMART
In terms of staten Island getting its own subway link, I agree with tech transit proposal for the R line extension to Staten Island with the forest Avenue alignment, but to be honest from a British man’s perspective. Staten Island will eventually need some sort of rail connection to New York.
3:29 If you turn this over 180 degrees you get the branching nightmare of the A Train.
There are multiple ideas i have a hylan blvd line ( eliminating the sir) a richmond av/ castleton av line a victory blvd line and a line that would run via the west shore and si expressways into Brooklyn via the r line i know all very unrealistic but i think these lines would be the best to serve si
I always wanted a extension from 95 Street To Staten Island Since the S79+ takes so long to get to Eltingville Transit Center 😢
Relatable
On Staten Island there are houses and "Railroad Avenue" that don't fit in with their surroundings. Wow. I never noticed!
That was a local track for the N train the entrance to go that way and then come outsid
Extending the F train into SI and G lcl to CI make the most sense.
I think that we can use the G approach and then leave the F as it is. The F has 22 stops in Brooklyn and that makes it way too long. I wouldn’t be any to touch Culver as we would need to have enough rolling stock for the G to have Longer trains and the F can handle express service on Culver this is so that the merges with the G would be eliminated and would bump up the F Frequency.
Being born and raised in S.I. and thankfully no longer living there since the late 90's, a few items.
1 - The Hylan tunnel was stopped because S.I. was a rail hub for the B&O and a freight/subway tunnel would have given the B&O competition with the Pennsylvania out to Long Island. Hylan and Gov Al Smith were both stockholder in the Pennsylvania so....
2- Yes, Robert Moses, the quintessential devil in all Mega Projects in NYC, a man who never met a public transit system he couldn't let go to rot, made sure the VZ could not handle trains.
3- Understand most people from S.I. will blame the VZ for all the issues, but the bridge was inevitable, the land grab that happened, wasn't. S.I. is overbuilt and most of the buildable land has been used and used again as single family homes are torn down to make way for multi family.
4- There is a huge traffic problem on the Island, the center of the island is protected park land and has only 4 roads from one side to the other. There were plans to extend 2 highways through it, but they were stopped (thank god) as the island would have been impossible to navigate with all the parkland then open to building.
5- There was a North Shore branch and a South Beach branch of the SIR, but they were discontinued in 1953, way before the VZ was on the drawing board. The Feds made the B&O, who operated the SIR until 1973 when it was folded into the MTA, operate the South Shore line when they want to close that in 1953 as well. You can't blame them, ridership was very low.
6 - Up until the late 1980's the South Beach branch right of way was still there, but in a massive fit of short shortsightedness, was sold to developers by NYC. You can still find the North Shore branch in many places, there is a massive concrete right of way in Port Richmond, unfortunately when freight stopped in the mid 1980's, parts of the North Shore branch fell into the Kill Van Kull and Arthur Kill.
7- so what needs to be done? A Subway tunnel is a waste as is pointed out, times would be long to NYC. Unfortunately the South Beach line is unrecoverable, if it were still able to be recovered a line down to the beach and the unused parking lots would have gotten many commuters off the road.
a- A feasible plan is to recover the North Shore line, complete the line to circle the island down the West Shore through the old dump and link with the South Shore Branch. Build 2 massive parking garages, 1 off the Goethels Bridge and 1 off the Outerbridge Crossing. Have stations at each lot. Widen the Right of Way to enable express trains to pass to the garages. NJ residents parking at SI train and bus stops is an issue. This would alleviate it.
b - Purchase at least 2 more ferries to accommodate 10 minute service during rush hour.
C- Extend the Bergin/Hudson Light Rail in NJ over the Bayonne Bridge and down Richmond Ave, connecting it with stops at the North Shore Station, Eltingville Transit Center and the Eltingville Train Station. This will enable people to get to Jersey City and other points if they work in NJ and vice versa.
The reason express buses still aren’t enough is that they are too infrequent and they REFUSE to fully eliminate the time wasting combination routing during off peak hours
And when you REALLY look at it, buses are just AUTOMOBILES, just like cars.
I remember the R22s in the original dark green color.
Thanks 👍
I say that this idea should be important bc more people are moving to Staten Island and the SIR should implement a 3 rail system bc of the express service it has like from New Dorp to St George and St George to Great Kills
Also a connection to Perth Amboy in the NJT
U didn’t mention the tunnel they started in bk but stopped off the r and f line in the owl head park
Definitely the R to Staten Island is the most doable. Building new miles of F or G track and then a tunnel would become a nightmare in NY politics. But with modern tunnel building techniques that would allow one to simply sink the tunnel sections into the water below the harbor systemically, just like Germany and Denmark are doing right now, the bulk of tunneling distance is much cheaper and the only need to construct are the portal approaches. I would argue that the G train itself is awkwardly short in general and more should be done with it. But I don’t think going all the way to Staten Island makes sense.
also the R is the fourth avenue local it makes sense for it to terminate at bay ridge
Someone send this to Mayor Adams and NY Governor Hochul so we can make this happen.
I think the best way is to elect someone that understands that Staten Island needs to work together with the rest of the city. Until Staten Islanders elect someone that doesn't demand separating Staten Island with the rest of city, then unfortunately, this extension probably won't happen.
With this subway service, we wouldn’t have to rely on the 3 bus lines that are usually crowded and have service issues
Maybe we should extend the Path to SI?
Possibly to St. George via the noth shore right-of-way?!
The Staten Island subway will operate beside by freight
With all the money this country has… they can’t have a subway connecting this borough to Manhattan or Brooklyn? They can build a tunnel connecting France to England (Chunnel), but we can’t get this done here. NO EXCUSE! We need a PATH train connecting Perth Amboy to Staten Island and then a train tunnel or bridge connecting Staten Island to Manhattan. This would free up a lot of traffic and people would have alternative ways to get to and from work.
Exactly right!
Why only 360p?
The Narrow tunnel has to dive to 100 feet because of the depth of the water; I would suspect it'd be too muck of a slope for a subway.
I would lean towards the PATH extension but connecting such to SI would be difficult.
Otherwise it is well researched.
As plans for the Interboro Express push ahead I can easily see that going to Staten Island. They would just have to have commuter trains down scaled to a size that could operate on MTA surface lines (Staten Island Railway).
Better idea reactivate the north shore line and have commuter trains run there.
@@qjtvaddict Reactivation of the North Shore Line is not a great idea in our opinion. The North Shore line runs extremely close to the northern shoreline of Staten Island, meaning that half of the ridership potential is wasted. Rising sea levels is another issue, and since the North Shore Line runs along the coastline of Northern Staten Island, storm surges will increase the deterioration of the rail line. Finally, the North Shore Line would need to be completely rebuilt due to it being abandoned for nearly 70 years. That money can be used to construct a rail line further inland (Forest Ave, Victory Blvd), and be used to construct the North Shore BRT, which can also serve as a seawall.
Not really . SIRT use to run LIRR cars on the line before 70s modernization
I’m for it. But that last idea should be done via 86th Street instead of 95th Street. You’d be turning that station into a mini Forest Hills. 86th Street, you could have two island platforms and send the trains under a wider road and not have any disruptions in service because a route taking time to turn around.
A connection into NYC from Staten Island would bring more crime into the island. Currently the police can seal the island rather quickly and a subway would add another and faster escape route.
Can you plz do the 9th avenue El second system crap
We will add it to the list of proposals that we are going to cover.
In wonder how feasible it would be to use the technique of sinking prefab concrete sections to create the tunnel without the cost of deep tunneling as done in other projects around
the world?
Sounds feasible, especially as it's used in other countries.
They used STEEL for the 63rd street tunnel....
I'm about to finish my NYC subway fantasy map which is set to release this week.
If they build it, they will come!
Build it 🔨
Just extend the sir to Brooklyn
Staten Island need a subway station to the main land
The Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge is too far south of the unfinished St. George Tunnel. The subway could've easily been built without ever using the bridge. So, you can't really pin this on Robert Moses.
But Robert Moses is a generally deserving target of a lot.
@@andrewdiamond2697 Too bad he couldn't have built the roads that are needed there. Staten Island needs the subway, but they need road improvements too.
@@DTD110865The trouble with roads is that they encourage automotive use, which in turn leads to automotive-based development, with "automobiliation" being the final result.
Rail lines foster pedestrian-based development which is the basic element of ANY true, real city.
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x Roads and rails foster development with the same results. They could've extended Richmond Parkway to the Staten Island Expressway, built the Wolfe's Pond Parkway, extended the Willowbrook Expressway to the South Shore, built the South Shore Parkway , and extended the West Shore Expressway to the Bayonne Bridge and still kept development in check. The only thing not building them did was create more traffic jams.
@@DTD110865 "Same results"?! Nope; rail creates pedestrian friendly development, while roads encourage sprawl.
59 st has provisions for the extension
Yes, and we mentioned it. 5:08
@@jointransitassociation hi
@@jointransitassociation I said the provisions before I watched it lol
No one’s building any underwater line between South Ferry to St. George! Unless Battery Park’s relocated to St. George, nah…
I ain't even know Staten Island was gonna have a new subway cuzz.
What about a tram on Staten Island that goes through the verazzona bridge?
The bridge was built so as not to support trains
@@IlDiavolo2515 trams are really light though from my understanding
A tram won't be worth it in our opinion. There is the issue of trains and their load. Cars are uniform in their load, while trains are longer and create a moving load frequency, which can cause swaying. Steel trusses help stabilize this, as in the case of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridge, but the Verazanno has those trusses so that the wind does not blow them and for a second deck for cars, not because Moses wanted trains on the bridge.
If you want to make the tram shorter, great, but why not beef up S53, S79, and S93 buses? They run on the bridge and connect Staten Island with Brooklyn, and beefing them up will be cheaper than retrofitting the bridge.
Finally, there is the rolling stock issue. The MTA would have to train employees on how to operate trams and hire new mechanics to work on the trams, which is good if NYC has a good tram system. But, NYC does not have a tram system, so all of the systems would have to be built from scratch, and the tram cannot be operated with NYC Subway infrastructure. I argue that just boring new tunnels to Staten Island would be more feasible than coming up with a new system with limited interoperability, complete with new personnel to use them. There are already provisions at 95th St to extend into Staten Island; if you really want a Staten Island rail line, just extend the R, or deinterline and extend the B.
Here is an article on this topic: www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2022/01/a-tunnel-too-far-staten-islands-failed-pipe-dream/
Hope this information helps!
@@jointransitassociationBeefing up buses would only make traffic much worse than it already is....
Sembra proprio che mta abbia deciso di farsi superare dalle metropolitane cinesi non avendo di fatto progetti di espansione di nuove metropolitane
The MTA has a train to Far Rockaway that goes over the water, cant they just build a another bridge ? IK the water over there accommodates big ships, but cant they make a bridge that cant move or some shit ?
Too much development over there to take out.
@@TheRailLeaguerHowever, when it came to building stuperhighways, the builders of these "Hitler strips" didn't balk one bit about property needing to be taken out....
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x The times have changed since then, and there’s sense development on both sides of the narrows. Also the cost is another issue to the point that having it go through New Jersey is better economically and also benefits people on all sides of the water.
Staten island is the only brough that doesnt have a good running train on the North side that is fuck up
Some people would want a subway line while a large group would also not want one for obvious reasons.
PATH could build a line from staten Island to downtown or 33rd street. 😮😮😮
Truth be told Staten islanders want it they don’t what the homeless issues on the island
I literally see homeless people on Staten island on the buses, sirr and in Tompkinsville
I think this is just me, but maybe they could just add and IRT or BMT line that have the nickname “Staten Island Express” And would follow the 3 or 1 line, before breaking off at Times Square, making a quick stop at 14th, and then straight to Staten Island.
My proposal is to have the T go 4th ave local with the R and making go through a tunnel to Clifton trains to ST George will be Desinated I trains. I trains will be Staten Island Local. While T trains are Staten Island Express. Meanwhile B trains will replace N trains at sea beach, while N trains will run Brighton Express.
Summary:
(T) 4th Ave Local to Staten Island Express from Clifton, along the former SIR (Trains to St George Will be designated as I trains.
(B) Express Via Forth Ave Line
(D) No Changes)
(R) No Changes
(N) Via Brighton Express
(I) Former Route of the OG Staten Island Railway Making the Former Service patterns of the SIR, but increased and expaneded.
I wonder how much it would cost to reinforce the Verrazano Bridge so that it can carry a train on the lower level..
An arm and a leg, and it would also be practically impossible to do due to development on both sides of the bridge.
You could never fit a line , down castleton Ave , forest Ave or Victory Blvd … the only way is over the highway .
Good Video. Id say connect the train to Perth Amboy as well. Or connect to Bk. The connection to Bayonne was cool but waayyy too expensive lol
We'll be told that there's no money, of course. However, the insane amount of money being spent in 2023 & 2024 on a mixture of people who have NEVER paid city, state, or federal taxes, never paid a fine, and have never voted, somehow has money allocated to their 'care'.
Even WORSE is the billions wasted on stuperhighways which serve only motorists in private cars!
how about trains from staten islad to new jersy.
We did mention that plan. 1:00
i ment to connnect staten island to the north east corridor
@@alexisdespland4939 Very interesting...tell us more.
@@alexisdespland4939 Also, what we meant by Staten Island subway is any link between Staten Island and the rest of the city.
@@jointransitassociation i just look at googelmaps there is a connection ibelieve the b&oused to tun trains over.
&oused torun passenger train f
Good luck with that 🤞🏻 maybe for the great grands. 🤷🏻🙄
I live in Staten Island that won’t happen that’s been done in the earlier days. No people were complaining left and right.
Crazy complicated 🤯😵😵💫🤷🏻🤦🏻🤯
so sad did not happen 😢
We wished it happened. You would think that with proposals dating back to the 1890s that this would be finished. But again, Second Ave and Utica Ave have existed for a century and they still have yet to be completed.
First thing that should be done is to change the name of Hylan Blvd. 🤠
Should have been done decades ago....
Who could argue that??
There is no such thing as "Staten Island Subway" - Staten Island does not have tunnels, it's all elevated.
I'm from Brooklyn and have always wanted to ride it. Is it worth it to ferry out and do so? Is there anything to see, as it is elevated?
@@MADGUNSMONSTERIt's actually at-grade, not elevated above the ground....
Read the title, it says “Lines that NEVER Were”
Now that the W line is back, would it be feasible for the MTA to extend that train to Staten Island directly from Manhattan? Could the 1 train be extended as an alternative? How much would that cost if that were possible?
BTW, every video that I've seen shows what an anti-subway jerk Robert Moses was.
The NJ plan and 1880 plans were better