You never answered Stephan’s question. In 1 hour and 22 minutes of this debate he asked you about Genesis 1:1-25 and your answer was based on Genesis 16. Can you give any evidence in Genesis 1:1-25 that God is more than one individual/person?
@@Actschapter7verse55 Sure you don’t but why didn’t you answer the question that he had and jump to Genesis Chapter 16 when he asked you about Genesis chapter 1?
Modalists' jesus prayed to himself, glorified himself, sits at his right hand and grab the book from himself. He also told to himself that he is well pleased of himself. Their jesus is not the jesus of the bible
Jesus said in John 2, 'destroy this body, and in three days I will raise it up.'. The raising of his body from the dead, is synanimous to his glorification, for the body was sown as a natural one and was risen as a spiritual glorified one. Yes, he glorified himself on the third day, as the Resurrection and the Life. Where praying to himself is concerned, there can be a ues and no to that. Jesus praying to himself, is a relative, and not an absolute truth, and his praying to someone else, is surely not the truth. But to think, which of the following is true? (1) Jesus is the SAME GOD to whom he prayed; (2) Jesus is NOT the same God to whom he prayed. Now don't tell me the answer is 'none of the above'. Jesus prayed to both the person and the being, and not only the being, unless one can present a bible verse which defines the one prayed to, as only the person and not the being.
@@dgreenja “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." (John 17:20-21) How do you interpret this?
Speaking of his glorification, yes he glorified himself. He said on Jn 2:19, that if they destroyed his body he will raise it up. The raising of his own body from.the dead, is the same as his glorifying that body. He is the resurrection and the life. As the life he glorifies himself in that visible finite existence of his. Speaking of praying to himself, he did just that, where flesh prayed to the Spirit, as he who prayed, is the same God who answered the prayers which came from the man he became, without ceasing to be the God who heard the prayers of his own flesh. The deity of Jesus, divinely Fathered his human existence, which explains why humanity prayed to divinity.
Man! The oneness people are soooo hard headed! Even when you corner them with indisputable logic they talk their way out with arguments that make no logical sense at all. How can you even debate someone who doesn't subscribe to plain logic? It's so very frustrating. Any rational person would assume that when you say, "Let us go" or "Let's go" that you are speaking of more than just yourself, yet this man tries to argue that it depends on the context. I can't think of any rational context where you use a plural to refer to a singular. Michael, you have the patience of Job. I couldn't do it. These people refuse to be swayed. I think God Himself could come down and explain His nature to them and they would still stiffen their hearts and dispute it. Is it pride? Or can they really believe what they're saying? This guy seems fairly intelligent so I just can't see how he can seriously make the arguments he's trying to make.
I think oneness Pentecostals just hold on to the monotheism of God and they think the Holy Trinity isn’t monotheistic. They have a misunderstanding on the Holy Trinity, and even when shown Bible verses and it’s explained they still reject it. They want to hold on to their view of God. Even a 5 year old can differentiate between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They can read the verses and know they’re district persons yet one God.
@@lr489 Yes, exactly. And God tells us to come to Him as little children so I always try to read my Bible with a child's attitude. I know when I was young and would read it everything seemed to make sense to me, but as an adult you start to question things. Whenever I get sidetracked with a passage I always think back to what it meant to me when I was younger and it suddenly makes sense. The Holy Spirit helps too, of course. That brings up another issue, why isn't the Holy Spirit helping these people understand the error in their thinking? Do they not have the Holy Spirit? I just can't wrap my mind around their thinking.
@@lr489 the best example in my view, of the expressed belief in monotheism, is in Jesus who Himself as a Jew as well as an Israelite, regarded Deut 6:3-4. My question to any trinitarian theologian is this; Did Jeus being a Jew and an Israelite, serve and worship the one and only God of the bible, and does that negate Jesus as God? If the God of the Lord Jesus, can't be defined as one within the same context of Deut 6:4, then numerically how is the God of Jesus, to be defined?
"I like to deal with plain english." Unfortunately the english language is very weak when it comes to words and their meanings. Going to the original text provides more insight into what is being said. Not wanting to reference the original text leans to a sort of ignorance. Don't you think?
Trinity = Polytheism The Shield of the Trinity is a visual representation of the Trinity, which came from the Athanasian Creed. That creed is... _The Father is not the Son._ _The Son is not the Holy Spirit._ _The Holy Spirit is not the Father._ _The Father is 100% God._ _The Son is 100% God._ _The Holy Spirit is 100% God._ So, if all 3 persons are 100% god, you have 3 gods. There's no way around that, no matter how hard you try to redefine words in the English language. But what concerns me more than the actual fallacy of the Trinity is this... What do you call the entity of all 3 persons combined? Trinitarians refer to that as the Godhead, right? So if you have 3 persons that are 100% god, and the Godhead is also 100% god, then you actually have a 4th god. For example... Father = God + Son = God + Holy Spirit = God F + S + H = Godhead Therefore, the Godhead is a 4th entity. Trinitarians try really hard to spin words, but you actually have 4 gods in your belief system. The Trinity should actually be called the Quadrinity. There's no logical argument around that if you believe the Athanasian Creed and the Shield of the Trinity. Also, God (the Father) spoke to Moses. God has a voice. Jesus spoke to his disciples. Jesus also has a voice. The Holy Spirit said he speaks what god commands him to speak, which means the Holy Spirit also has a voice. All 3 gods have distinct voices. So if you were familiar with their distinct voices, you would be able to decipher who is speaking to you without having to make eye contact with that 'god'. So if they all have distinct voices, what would it sound like if the Godhead spoke? Your Godhead absolutely must have a distinct voice, right? Since the Godhead has a distinct voice, different from the individual voices of each person, then you have 4 distinct voices. Again, your Trinity should be renamed to Quadrinity. Therefore... Trinity = Polytheism = *No Salvation for You!*
@@scotthix2926 Exactly. And apparently the Holy Spirit has its own will, too. When Jesus prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said let YOUR will be done, not my own. That's 3 wills from 3 persons (with 3 distinct voices)... which equals 3 gods. The false doctrine of the trinity is the reason Christianity is falling apart. People with common sense and fundamental reasoning will never accept the _3 persons in 1 Godhead_ nonsense. It doesn't make any sense, but when you point that out to them, then Christians say God is too big to fully comprehend. But doesn't the Bible say _God is NOT the author of confusion?_ Now what's their excuse?
@@thewallcometh1444 first off, "author of confusion" is about speaking in tongues and worship service, not his characteristics. I could say "author of confusion" about anything if taken out of context. A giant ship floats but a rock sinks, gravity is confusing. I dont think trinity is confusing at all. A rock has 1 being and no person A human has 1 being and 1 person Why cant God have 1 being and 3 persons
@@scotthix2926 Wow, the level of psychobabble (and contradiction) is mind-boggling. How can you redefine the word "author" to imply the verse is about speaking? The definition of "author" is one who writes literature. Someone who talks or narrates is a "speaker", not an "author." But some pastor made up nonsensical excuses to get around _God is not the author of confusion_ and you gobbled it up as if it's true...without even thinking for yourself. Just amazing. There's nothing confusing about why ships float. The engineering and science behind the amount (and weight) of the water displaced by the ship, versus its mass, determines whether it floats or not. What's _confusing_ to you is actually taught in 7th grade Physical Science class. Also, the concept of 3 persons in 1 being is psychologically impossible to grasp because most people aren't so easily duped by psychobabble. 1 person in 1 being is easily understood, both on a theological level and a psychological level. You may make a desperate theological argument for the trinity, but not a psychological argument. Because 3-in-1 defies all human logic and understanding. And that's why people are leaving Christianity in masses. And they also roll their eyes because the concept of the trinity is impossible to comprehend. On a psychological level, the trinity is 100% pure nonsensical garbage. Furthermore, since the Bible says God is not something that walks on the land, swims in the sea, or flies in the air, then common sense and logic dictates Jesus is NOT god. But asking a Trinitarian to use common sense and logic is asking for too much, apparently. The definition of "being" is _the existence, nature, or essence of a person or living creature._ I consider a rock to be an object, not a being. Most people would agree with me. But to say a rock is a being is yet another example of how Christians redefine words, and stretch truths, to make an argument to support the false doctrine of the trinity. And I have no idea what you're referring to in asking if God was faking a second will?? My God doesn't fake anything, maybe yours is less honest. The point is Jesus (pbuh) isn't God. There's only ONE God, just like Jesus said. As did every other Prophet before and after Jesus... there's only ONE God worthy of worship.
Recently Rev. David K. Bernard made reference to some points by Mr. Burgos which he wrote in an attempt to contradict Rev. Bernard' writing. Mr. Burgos you might want to have a look at that presentation about your writing, presented by David Bernard, a little over a week ago. I think it is in the WWGS fb discussion group.
Great job Michael Burgos. A mastery of textual exegesis in order to advance the truth of Jesus' pre-existence with the Father over and against the false position promoted by Quicksey.
What? Jesus pre-existed? What's wrong with people? Don't you read the Bible or do you just follow men? Do people know who invented this pagan doctrine that crept into christianity? *There is NO such thing as the Trinity in the Bible* The Bible says that God is ONE. Deut 6:4 One what? Here is the answer John 4:24 God is *A* Spirit (singular) and not a 1st person. Jesus *NEVER* said He was God, He said He was the Son of God over and over again. Even God is saying the same thing Matt 3:17/Matt 17:5/Luke 9:35/Mark 9:7. Christ is the *representitive* of God and speaks on His behalf (John 12:49) and not a 2nd person. His only begotten Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of *his* glory, and the *EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS PERSON* The verse says person and not persons. That's why Christ could say the things He said and do the things He did. Because God worked *through* the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:22) and Christ did everything God commanded Him (John 14:31) that's how they are one. *Eph 4:5-6* There is *one body* and *ONE Spirit* even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; *ONE Lord* one faith, one baptism, *ONE God and Father* of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. We have one God who is *A Spirit* (John 4:24) who does ALL these things and not some pagan three in one transformer god. The Holy Spirit *IS* the Spirit of God (Gen 1:2) and not a 3rd person *Rom **8:14* For as many as are led by *the Spirit of God* they are the sons of God (or do we have multiple Holy Spirits?) Jesus Christ IS the promised Messiah from the OT, God's Son born of a virgin, the only begotten (1 John 4:9) the perfect man/human. And not a pre-existed being. The perfect man would show us the Father by representing Him on earth and that is why He IS the image of God *Eph 4:4* In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who *IS the image of God* should shine unto them. Do people know what an image is? That means you are NOT God. *The Trinity is an old pagan three in one god religion* ruclips.net/video/zgvmv9MlR_0/видео.html The Trinity doctrine came from Babylon adopted by Philo of Alexandria a Jewish Greek Mystic Philospher (Col 2:8) and adored by the so called Church Fathers (Roman Catholic Church) taught by the Catholic Counsels and Creeds, planted in the semminaries and commentaries. And now 99% of Christianity is preaching this popular pagan doctrine. The Trinity is the reason why the RCC has the mother of god heresy. That is God the Son (2nd person, co-equal, co-eternal ect) is born. God is born? See the implications? ruclips.net/video/EolwY4DqTeM/видео.html
@@JudeOne3Four : Heb 10:5, speaking of Christ reads: Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have ot desired, but a body you have prepared for me" (cf. Psa 40:6 [39:7, LXX]) This is of christological importance as it shows that the persons of the Father and the Son are distinct from one another in a way that is incompatible with Oneness Pentecostal and other similar Christologies. Why? In this passage, the person of the Son speaks to another person, distinct from him, who prepared (κατηρτίσω, second person indicative aorist middle of καταρτιζω ["to prepare"]) the (σωμα) body of Christ--they are not one and the same person! A question to be posted to proponents of Oneness Pentecostalism and others who hold to a form of Modalism should be asked--to whom did Christ address his words? BIBLICAL Trinitarians do not have to strain the plain meaning of the text by arguing that the speaker and the addressee of this locution are one and the same person! Such an interpretation is theological rubbish.
K. Johnson The Holy Spirit of God is not God the Holy Spirit of God, nor the Holy Spirit God from whom comes the three persons Father, Son, Spirit of God! The Holy Spirit of God is a man, having his own material body, a spiritual material man body without an inner Spirit of man, as man was before he had his spirit of man formed within him: 'for what man (having a material tangible body) knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of a man save (Greek, if not) the spirit of man within him even so no one knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of God except the Spirit of God' within God's God material Spirit man body to complete the thought of parallel thoughts. What spirit of man within his man is equal to the man he is within except when sent? 1st Corinthians 2:11. The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead: No man knows what God has prepared for them that love him but God has sent his Spirit to reveal those things God has prepared for the Spirit 'searches all things yes the deep things of God' to know them. Why would God send his Spirit to search all things including the deep things of God? The Holy Spirit of God doesn't know them!. What God would need to search all things yes to include the deep things of God, except to know them? No God would need to search all things yes the deep things of God to know them!!!. The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead, yes?
So sounds like we have a debate in which neither person knows how to rightly divide the word of truth......only the Comforter , the Spirit of Truth can give a person the true understanding of the word ....
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. ( no this verse was not added to later Biblical texts it was taken out by the Gnostics in some of the corrupted texts). How can it not be important to look at the original text with the meaning of those words, since we definitely loose some meanings in any translation to another language and then if we have to translate through 2 languages....Hebrew & Greek to Latin, to English., we do need to have resources to know what in the language it was written in the words that the text was translated from meant. As great as this modalist theology sounds, the early church fathers rejected modalism/saballism/monarchism as a heresy. As early as the 1st century AD, the early church fathers write supporting trinitarian beliefs prior to the catholic church arising. www.velocity.net/~edju70/web/Trinity1.htm The problem is our lack of knowledge of church history and teaching of known rejected error/heresy in the early church. This is what happens when finite man tries to superimpose onto the text (eisegesis) or to God himself what makes sense to human thinking, we then make God into human likeness and reduce him into our own likeness. God's ways are higher then our ways and his thoughts are higher then our thoughts. Heresies resurface over and over again. Heresy mixes some truth with error. 95% truth plus 5% error = 100 % error. Jesus couldn't be echad with himself. Husband and wife are told to be one in marriage, though they are two seperate individuals with different roles. Believers are told to be echad=one as the Father and Son are echad=one. Believers are individuals with different roles and they are told to be echad=one as the Father and Son are echad. How can Jesus pray to Himself? How does He choose to do God's will, not his own if he is God the Father? How does Jesus go into the water for baptism, crack the sky open and descend as a dove ( holy Spirit) and simultaneously declare about himself, "This is my beloved son?" This would simply be self glorification. How can the Son be seated at the right hand of the Father after the resurrection? What about these three verses in Revelation? Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Clearly these verses mention that the remnant will follow the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus or sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb. If they were one completely you wouldn't see this.
John 1:1 is enough for oneness people to know the truth but their eyes are blind as 2Co 4:4 . Pray for them 2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.
The Angel of the Lord was YHWH himself in visible form. The Logos. The Angel or Logos was the same in the OT. The distinction between the Angel and YHWH was the angel was the VISIBLE IMAGE of the omnipresent Spirit. Not 2 distinct God persons.
The Angel of Yahweh speaks to and is spoken to by Yahweh. They are not the same person. Moreover, if the Angel is merely the "VISIBLE IMAGE" of God, then why does the Angel speak from heaven as in Gen. 22? Your viewpoint is ad-hock and unattested.
@@Actschapter7verse55 Every time the angel is mentioned is not THE ANGEL. There is at least 100 million angels. The angel of YHWH "Logos" spoke to Abraham from Heaven because he was in Heaven. The Logos was the image in heaven as well as in Earth.
@@Actschapter7verse55 You are the first person I ever heard say this. Revelation 5:11 says there are 100 million angels before the throne and thou sands of thousands.
Burgos. Youre a great defender of the Trinity. Ive seen a lot of your debates w non-Trinitarian. Im longing to see you debate with Gregg Stafford. He's active on youtube: CwJahTube. Im a Trinitarian btw 😁
The Trinity teaching - one God is three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit of God - cannot be, since the Spirit of God is THE HOLY SPIRIT 'OF ' GOD Not The Holy Spirit God. The Holy Spirit of God is neither God nor part of the Godhead: God has prepared for them that love him things no one knows but they are revealed by his Spirit for the Spirit searches all things yes the deep things of God. Why would the Spirit need to search all things to include the deep things of God? To know them; the Spirit of God needs to search all things including the deep things of God to know them. 'No one knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of God except the Spirit of God' within God's God material Spirit man body to complete the thought of parallel thoughts. Even the Spirit of God doesn't know the things of God by experience but is sent to search all things, all things, INCLUDING the deep things of God? Why is the Holy Spirit of God sent to search all things? The Holy Spirit of God doesn't know them. Would any God need to search all things yes the deep things of God to know them? The Holy Spirit of God is not God!!!!!!!!!! 1 st Corinthians 2:9-10.
It is true that the plain reading of the verse with regards to not seeing God, says that no man has seen God at any time. While it is true that the verse didn't differentiate seeing God in His fullness from not seeing Him in His fullness, this distinction is found in other verses of scripture. The biblical positions of seeing God and not seeing God, are relatives and not absolutes. Moses on one hand didn't see God, yet on the other hand He saw God. To see the back parts of God, is actually to see God. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. While Jesus as a human being, was seen, at the same time in His divine nature or as God, He was never seen, which is one of the examples why I am of the view that seeing and not seeing God, are relatives and not absolutes. But you have made the St. John 1:18 to be an absolute without regards to other verses which specifically mention that God was seen. Furthermore, God by nature being Spirit, is it incorrect to say that no man has seen the divine essence of God? I believe this is what St. Jn 1:18 is referring to. Is "God" there referring to person only, the divine essence only, or both the person and the divine essence?
The one who spread abroad the earth by himself, is the Father. Isaiah 44:24. God never created through a personal agent as trinitarians think Hebrews 1 is saying.
Most of Michael's supporters barely went thru this video. Half the Trinitarian clan don't what they believe in or what to believe in. The only way one wants to escape the idea of explaining a trinity is to say it's a "mystery"...
First, I've demonstrated that your claim about "what trinitarians believe" is abjectly false. Second, how on earth would you know "Most of Michael's supporters barely went thru this video"? Perhaps you should stop making ridiculous and transparent claims.
@@Actschapter7verse55 hi Michael, glad you responded on time. I've just dropped a mail in your inbox (pastor.burgos@northwesthillschurch.org). Do confirm the same.
No my brother, the radiance of his glory, doesn't equate to one person being the radiance of another person, for it presents Jesus as only the reflection of the reflected, and not also the reflected of the reflection. The complete glory of God and the radiance of the same, applies to all of who and what God is. There I can correctly refer to the radiance of the glory of the one God. Jesus being God, means He is the radiance of His own glory, for He possesses all of what God is. Now just to think, if Jesus is the brightness or the radiance of God's glory, and no man can see God and live, then it stands to reason that St. Jn 1:18 can be conflated with 1Tim 3:16 where while being a man on earth, at the same time He maintained that unapproachable light (1Tim 6:16 ) or radiance and brightness which was hid in order that men would not die. So while men saw Jesus, at the same time men never saw Him as God, otherwise they would die.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. According to unitarian the father is talking to himself smh
Re Hebrews 1:1-2, if the Son was not revealed in the OT which I agree with, then do you agree with the oneness position that anywhere in the OT God spoke, that it is the Father who spoke, and never the Son? God who spoke in times past by the prophets, included the Isaiah verses, eg chapter 44:6, has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son. In my view on the matter, I think the trinitarian theology doesn't define the Father as the one and only God of the two testaments, but rather to define Him as one of three persons of the trinity, which to me is a misrepresentation of who He is.
If Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, then what Spirit is the apostle Paul meaning, and which Lord, in the following verse? 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Also, if Jesus is not the Holy Spirit then did the apostle Peter make a mistake? For he said that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets that spoke of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow: 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Peter the apostle, in his second letter identified the same 'Spirit of Christ' as the Holy Ghost: 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The Trinity doctrine categorically states that the Son is not the Holy Ghost, how then does this exemplify the above passages of scripture?
adysaxman 77 2nd Corinthians 3:17 'now the Lord is that Spirit' is speaking of the meaning of the words written before this; the words which came after this phrase weren't in the context of that which was. 2nd Corinthians 3:1-16 contrasted the commandments (law) written in stone, in ink - the ministration of condemnation - with the law of righteousness written in the hearts of flesh - the ministration of righteousness; the ministration of condemnation was glorious but the ministration of righteousness is exceedingly more glorious: now the Lord is that Spirit, which is the spirit of the ministration of righteousness - every administration brings with it its own spirit of dispensing its authority: grace and truth came by Jesus Christ John 1:14.
adysaxman 77 John 8:17-18's teaching, approved by the Father (God) John 8:28, 12:49-50, 14:9-10, according to Jesus' listeners' law, Jesus had two men witnesses for himself. These two men witnesses would testify as before a judge. As witnesses each would know personally. The two men witnesses would each have his own material body with a spirit of man within him Genesis 2:7a-d with Zechariah 12:1. Jesus would have his own mortal material body with a spirit of man (spirit of God's Son Galatians 4:6, spirit of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19, spirit of Christ Romans 8:9) within him. The Father (God) is a man means the Father (God) has his own material body with a spirit of man within him: his own God material Spirit man body with a Spirit of man, the Holy Spirit of God 1st Corinthians 2:11, within him ( within God's God material Spirit man body). John 8:17-18's teaching, when defining the words used, there is shown a conclusive difference between the Father and the Son. How could it be that the Spirit of Christ revealed the sufferings of Christ before the Christ had come? Isaiah 44:26 'declaring the end from the beginning' concerning Christ by the Spirit of Christ even as Genesis 1:2 was declared before the flood in Noah's day Genesis chapter 6-7. John 8:17-18's teaching also explains the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ, God's Son's spirit of man within him, because Jesus was a man 'in all things' Hebrews 2:17.
The Trinitarian doctrine deceitfully steals the true identity of Jesus. If Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, then Jesus' promise is void & can't be trusted when he said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you"
Stefan made reference, and rightly so, to Isaiah 9:6. Trinitarians would have me to believe that God the Father and the everlasting Father, are two persons. If that be the case, then how many everlasting Fathers or Fathers of eternity, do the scriptures present? Who can deny that God the everlasting Father, IS the Father of eternity? Stefan has also made a good point with Hebrews 1:1-2, where the one God in the OT, never spoke to his creation through the Son. Stefan so far, is doing well. I am yet to listen more of this debate.
Your jesus prayed to himself, glorified himself, sits at his right hand and grab the book fr himself. He also told to himself that he is well pleased of himself. Your jesus is not the jesus of the bible
The Jesus of the bible, is surely not the Jesus of anybody's trinity. He is all of who and what God is. Jesus being God, is an omnipresent Spirit who took on a human existence, thus linking him as one omnipresent Spirit, to the incarnation. The Father cannot be that same omnipresent Spirit, unless he is also that Spirit in the incarnation.
Any aspect of God's identity Jesus is not, simply means he is not God at all. The God who is Jesus, is not a part of God, because he as God is never a part of himself. All trinitarians need to do is to maintain two basic truths about God, that he is Spirit (singular) and that he is one, where being one he is a complete being. So then anywhere in the bible where God is mentioned, monotheism comes into view.
Re: Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. In just reading that passage as a babe in Christ and not someone schooled in Greek, Hebrew, or anything else, I believe those names were intended to show the roles of Jesus more than his actual title or name. I read it as he plays a fatherly role to his disciples and to everyone else who follows him. It has to be that because Jesus clearly distinguished Himself from God the Father by telling us that no one knows the day or hour He would return, not even Him, but only the Father. Plus, there are plenty of other examples where Jesus differentiated Himself from the Father. Since we know the Bible can't contradict itself, that has to mean that this passage in Isaiah doesn't mean that Jesus is God the Father.
Yes , Trinitarians do use that scripture as proof text, but jesus will be our eternal father since he is the second adam, first adam would have been our father but he disobeyed, mighty god is a title applied to jesus since he will be king of God's kingdom for 1000 years then he hands it back to his father , prince of peace well he will bring peace on this earth when the kingdom will replace all earthly kingdoms daniel 2:44 Many times jesus said he has a God that he worships , and prayed to while on earth , he sits at right side of God, and scriptures don't contradict each other
@@christianspear6322 trinitarians use that verse to support there view but they teach jesus isn't the father . If we take that scripture literally then you have 2 fathers and that csnt work . The title everlasting father is applied to jesus cause he was the last adam who brought back what first adam lost . Perfect life in paradise earth. If adam remained faithful he would have been our earthly father . So in that sense jesus is our everlasting father
THE TRINITY AND THE WORD GOD The word God in Hebrew is ELOHIM and it is applied in the scriptures to the Father, Son, Men, Angels, let us see some cases 1) ANGELS --- ELOHIM. Psamls 8: 5-6; 97: 7; 138: 1 2) Men --- ELOHIM. Psamls 82: 1,6,7; 29: 1 Exodus 4: 16; 7: 1; 21: 6; 22: 7,8,27 My question is, if every time the word ELOHIM ( God ) is used to Angels, Men, are we going to think that we are in the presence of a trinity or the ONLY TRUE GOD ? The Hebrew mind did not have any problem with the application of the term God ( Elohim ) in different contexts. THE FACT THAT THE EXALTED CHRIST HAS A GOD IN HEAVEN INDICATES THAT HE IS NOT IQUAL TO THE FATHER AS THE ALMIGHTY. APOCALYPSE 3: 12 1) Everyone who has a God is because that God is more powerful than themselves. 2) Everyone who has a God is because is worshiping that God. How is Christ going to be the only God and will have a God to worship? John 20:17 (note that here he is in the flesh as a limited human but in the following text he is already in heavenly glory ) In Revelation 3: 12, Christ says the name God four times, there is no text in the Bible to remember the word God appears 4 times in the same verse. Notice also that Revelation 3: 12 tells us that he receives a new name. What new name can Almighty God receive? What can be new for God ? We are going to receive a new name as Christ also Revelation 2: 17. The Father is the God of Christ, but the Father has no God to worship, so He has no superior, the Father is the only Highest. The only way the Father is the God of Christ in heaven is if Christ is inferior to the Father and is different from the Father.
You have to be either a "greek scholar" or a functioning tritheist to be Trinitarian. The Bible clearly says that Jesus was human (and of course Divine in identity). The man Christ Jesus, as the human that grew in wisdom, slept, and was able to die, prayed to God. He is our example in everything including prayer. From the Trinitarian perspective, God #2 didn't leave heaven voluntarily (John 8:42) and had an opposing will to God #1 (Luke 22:42). God manifests Himself in different modes or forms. The Holy Spirit descended in bodily FORM like a dove (Luke 3:22) and Jesus "appeared in another FORM unto two of them, as they walked...BUT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEM EITHER (Mark 16:12-13)." In 1 John 1:2, John says the Word in John 1:1 is "that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Therefore, Jesus says "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (John 5:26). "Life" is not another person in John 5 or in John 1. How can a Trinitarian explain how can God#1 grant life to God#2, if he's co-eternal? The mystery of godliness is that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim.3:36). Another mystery revealed to the Church is Christ in us (Col.1:27), which shines light on Jesus becoming a life-giving spirit (1 Cor.15:45). Nowhere in the Bible is there any explicit revelation, statement or teaching of a multipersonal or triune God. What does exist is a book at the end of the Bible called the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, who repeatedly says He is the beginning AND the end, the Alpha AND the Omega, God AND the Lamb. In it, Jesus says, "He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son (Rev.21:7)."
If one is not already confused concerning the Godhead, all it takes is listening to a Trinitarian try as they might to explain it, to become as lost as a green golfball in tall weeds often for a lifetime. Billy Graham once stated, we believe in the Trinity, we pray to the Trinity but don't ask us to explain it because we can't.
I really enjoyed this discussion. I never heard of a oneness Pentecostal before. Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel, YHWH our God is ONE (Echad) Malachi 3:6 reads YHWH does not change. Therefore, the key to understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be found in the verse Deuteronomy 6:4. To rightly dived the word would be to study the actual word echad. Echad is the Hebrew word for one, but more precisely it means a single entity; but made up of more than one part. Another Hebrew word from the same root is Yachid which means single or one. The writer purposely chose Echad to describe God as Elohim. Elohim is a plural word - more than one being called God Consider scriptures like this all throughout the bible: Isaiah 48:16 And now YHWH and His Spirit have sent Me Three entities can be clearly seen in that verse. God is Echad, which is the plural for Elohim - His nature is not singular. We are all children of God and should not call anyone’s belief false until we have studied the scriptures. Faith, hope, and Love.
Why's trinitarian used so many scripture to explain what they believed that there's one God with three persons. Lord open our understanding that we make know that their is one God Deu.6,4.He only to be served ours Christ. Jesus Amen.
Eric Gideon Would you say that 'he that has seen me has seen the Father' John 14:9 would be similar to 'the express (exact) image (doing the works) of his person' Hebrews 1:3, 'the image (doing the works) of the invisible God' Colossians 1:15?
@@ericgideon9237 You add to God's word; in fact you must add to God's word to understand what is said, Scripture doesn't define in all passages the words used which God expects us to do to understand the depth of what he has sent. The word 'express' means 'exact', the word 'image' means 'doing the works' and likewise. The added definition, word or phrase, is in brackets to distinguish the definition, addition, from the Scriptures written, as Scripture has not been written in brackets as I have read. I could have written more wording but I consider the least is simpler to read, digest and comprehend. You still have the separation between Scripture and the additions. It's a way to be true to Scripture and its definition plainly. What is a man? The Scripture doesn't explain in one context does it? God the Father is a man and a Spirit John 8:17-18's teaching and John 4:24; still not in one context only.
If Heb. 1:8 is God speaking to God...there are 2 Gods. Simple. So the assumption that the Trinitarian Michael believes in monotheism is not true after all. It was actually God speaking to his Son Jesus in point of time, revealing to him his deity. As a man Jesus did not know this until it was revealed to him by his God.
Mr. Michael Burgos. Greetings to you sir. I will ask you this; what constitutes God being the Father? Does his being the Father, incorporate his deity? If yes, then because there is only one deity, would I be incorrect to say that the deity of Jesus, is actually the Father, seeing that the Father is not another deity?
dgreenja I would reply You have to define 'one' in the New Testament one God meaning, that is to say, 'single, one of a unity'. Eternal life is to know the Father the only true God and Jesus Christ who he had sent John 17:3. Included within 'knowing the Father and Jesus Christ to have eternal life' is to 'love your neighbor as yourself' Matthew 19:15-19. This perspective of 'one' is found also within John 1:1's definition of God in the beginning: 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God' both written as God, separately, individually, identifiably. Every word must come into existence, in its context, after the existence of its originator Every word must be formed to identify the thought meant Every God (as God would identify a God as his equal) must meet his criteria: 'before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me' Isaiah 43:10 The conclusion: The Word was God who began when God began, neither before nor after God began ; the Word couldn't, because of these, neither God's word, plan, or idea could be 'the Word was God' who was with God. The Word was made flesh, mortal man Jesus. John 1:14. The mortal man Jesus was not a true God John 17:3 in his mortal material body. Only as a man in all things - nature, eternal life, body, glory, abilities, knowledge [without a God nature] - could Jesus be a merciful and faithful high priest to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people' Hebrews 2:17. After Jesus had died and risen bodily to heaven John 20:17, 2nd Corinthians 5:2,4 (1st Corinthians 15:53, Romans 8:18-23, 1st Corinthians 15:23, Colossians 1:18), begotten of God Acts13:33, Jesus, by God, was anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows and then, having been God the Word, was appointed to be God alongside himself, the Father (God) Hebrews 1:8-9. Jesus is now God Almighty over mankind John 5:22,27, Ephesians 1:22-23, Matthew 28:18 The Father (God) is God Almighty over heaven and under the authority of Jesus to the church 1st Corinthians 12:5-6 voluntarily 1st Corinthians 15:27.
@@leonardhunt5677 a number of verses reveal God to be unipersonal in nature, where his oneness is a solitary one. This solitary oneness, in no way negates this same God, being a united one. The concept that many have, that unity must demand the coming together of more than one personal entity as one, is foreign to the scriptures. The word heis, which is the greek word for 'one' speaks of unity, and is applied to a single-personhood, in several places in the NT. In fact, that word heis, is never once applied to a tripersonal being in the NT. John 1:1: Within the trinitarian and binitarian view, God and the Word means two persons. Now such a conclusion cannot stand for a number of reasons; (1) God and his logos, are never distinguishable persons, as God is inseparable from his word, both in nature and identity; his word is he himself. The verse presents Jesus as both the ton theon and the theos (2) for the ton theon and the theos to be two persons, then there will also have to be a distinction between the ton theon and the theos, which creates two God. It is erroneous for any trinitarian and binitarian to say that 'God' with respect to the logos, means the quality, but not an identity. A clear identity is given, that the word was God; that is a clear identity; (3) because the verse presents only one God, in terms of both person and being, then the verse can be written as thus 'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was the Father'. The Father's logos is what embodies all his attributes and qualities, which are all a part of the Father himself, all of which embodiment is he himself, as he cannot carry attributes and qualities which are not he himself by nature, hence attributes/nature/qualities/characteristics = to the literal substance of the same. So the entire being of God, inclusive of his attributes, qualities and nature, which lie within the logos, is equal to the Father himself by identity.
With those other verses which you think proves Jesus to be distinct from God, then tritheism becomes apparent, because there is no way that God who is one, will anoint another divine person with the oil of gladness, without doing so to another God. This anointing took place within time, where the man Jesus was anointed by God. The God who anointed the man, is the same God who took on that living human expression which received that anointing, in short, the deity of Jesus, anointer his humanity. This oil of gladness, is a divine unction which comes from the very power and nature of God himself, which power Jesus in his divinity had, while he was on earth as a limited human being which needed anointing. So then, Jesus was never anointed as God, for as God he remained infinite, while having a finite human existence, at the same time. His divinity was never limited by his humanity. There are things he knew as God, which at the same time he never knew as a man. He grew in wisdom and knowledge, but in his human existence only; he never grew is wisdom and knowledge as God. When that human brain of his was blank, at his birth, knowing nothing, it was different in his deity. So while as a baby he knew nothing, that cannot be said of him as God, that as God he likewise knew nothing. Trinitarians try unsuccessfully to limite his deity to the relative finite level of his humanity, so that whatever he does not know as a man, he does not know as God either; that is not so. His divinity and humanity, were never equal, but that he maintained his infiniteness as God while at the same time having a limited existence as a human being.
@@dgreenja John 8:17-18's teaching makes plain this one God of the New Testament must be two distinct men, not just two distinct persons (personalities). Further the John 8:17-18's teaching, and others, assert the Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead 1st Corinthians 2:9-10, 11, nor is the same as the spirit of Christ, the spirit of God's Son Galatians 4:6.
So ask ur self micheal ,,if u believe that God is the creator why wud he need anything or anyone to create ....further no one else has the ability to create .....God himself bears this power ..... it sounds like u dont understand the Godhead. ....
Complete Jewish Bible by David Stearn a Jew himself. Page 1561 defines avi ad as "Eternal Father". So Jesus is the Eternal Father. So if he is ALSO the Eternal Son then Jesus would be both!
David Stern also supports the Nohide laws as having been given to moses (not true) and supports the talmud and misnah.....the talmud says horrible things about the Son of God, Jesus.
According to the Trinity doctrine the Son of God is almighty. However, it can be easily verified from the gospels that this statement is false: the Son of God - on the contrary - is NOT almighty. The miracles are in reality always made by the Father (see the Lazarus' resurrection). Hence, the Trinity doctrine states falsehood, in other terms is false. But of course: in the universe there is place for only ONE omnipotent person! Two omnipotent persons would be limiting and conflicting each other and therefore not really be ALLmighty. The reality is different: Jesus WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD in a very remote past. The only difference from before is that He is now like a normal man since He FORSOOK his power. The almighty God therefore is ONLY in that past and therefore "no one ever saw God". However, from that past God is able to REACH US here in the LIMITED FORM of a spirit "God is a spirit". For example when you have someone on the phone, you can say that he is present in your room "in the limited form of a spirit" since you can talk to him, but you cannot touch him: he is absent. That all is a kind of "workaround" since the almighty God cannot be directly here, indeed "the world has not known you".
Jesus said "...I spake what I heard and saw from God". Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. This is indisputable. Jesus prayed to the father and said, your will not my will be done. The jesus of the oneness are schizophrenic and psychotic, an insult to the one lord.
My man, He took on the likeness of a servant. He made Himself of no reputation. He put Himself in a lower position. His children took on flesh and blood, and He did the same. A man is lower in position than God. Yeshua doesn’t care about His position, He cares about His children having life. Yeshua is our God and Father. Anyone who says otherwise calls Yeshua a liar. Yeshua said greater love has no one than to lay down their life for their friends. It doesn’t say lay down your child’s life or someone else’s life, it says your own life. If your 3 gods is true, the son god loves us more than the father god.
Ur too simple minded use ur brain Jesus emptied his glory when became flesh lowered himself lower than the angels and took on the role of a servant so that’s why he prayed because man needs a God
If the Son was in heaven b4 as a different person than Father...why no Scriptures of when the Son fly down to enter the Flesh....or No Scripture of the Son impregnating Mary 🤯....also that would make the Holy Spirit the 3rd Son 😂
Jesus did say he decended down from heaven , read luke 1 as it tells you son of the most high God will be born, God's power overshadowed Mary so she can give birth to perfect son jesus
Im good with Jesus being his own Father. I affirm it to be foundational to New Testament doctrine. Many Oneness shy from that that is due to a lack of good teaching on the subject. They are good on simple Oneness but a few points need to go deeper. As far as Heb. 1:8 just being my opinion isnt what you say just yours? If God is speaking to God that means there are 2 Gods. If God is speaking to his Son (in humanity) revealing to him his identity the Oneness of God is preserved and the doctrine that Christ is both God and man.
Stefan J is the clear winner. He is using the scripture more than Burgos. He is not trying to use hypothetical reasoning or church history to prove his point. He really got him with the "2 fathers in the trinity" point.
Not really... In John 8 the Jews were trying to claim Abraham and God as their Father. Many Jews looked to father Abraham and others as the father's of the nation. Accepting both as father doesn't necessitate sameness of Fatherhood, rather they are father's in different capacities and relationship to the people of God. Abraham was never misunderstood as God the Father, neither should we conclude the same about Jesus Christ: the future Messiah. This is what is implied in Isa 9:6. The future Messiah would be the succession of the fathership of the people of God. This doesn't not diminish nor mix the nature of God's Fatherhood as God the Father, with the Son's relationship to the children which Father the has given him.
Stefan J. is not looking at the texts IN CONTEXT. He repeatedly uses Eisegesis ( superimposing a personal belief onto the text, then looking for text to support a personal belief) rather then exegesis ( letting the text speak for itself, looking at scripture line upon line and precept upon precept). Also Stefan clearly lacks the understanding of using study helps to see what the underlying texts actually said and what those words in the original languages. You cannot translate a text from Hebrew/Greek to Latin to English without having some difficulty that different languages without a totally equivalent word and not loose a bit of context. The study helps and original languages help to clarify this.
@@brendakauffman2222 why wouldn't God just allow for the word "trinity" to be put in the Bible if it were actually true? The reason why the word "trinity" is not in there is because it's false.
The error trinitarians make with Jn 1:1, is to read the following in the verse, 'In the beginning was the word (he). And the word (he) was with God (he). And the word was God. Because there is a distinction of the word and God, then in their view it implies one (he) being distinct from another (he). That is not so. This is further proven by the following; If the word being distinct, implies a distinct person FROM GOD, and not only FROM THE FATHER, then why can't it be concluded that the word as God, is not distinct FROM GOD, to create more than one God? It makes no sense that the Father being distinct from the word, without God being distinct from the word. In short, two persons speaks of two Gods, irrespective of how trinitarians try to maintain three persons without tritheism. Moses saw only God's backparts, which symbolizes a part of God's glory, and not his face, which symbolizes God's infinite glory, so when God told Moses that 'no man shall see me and live' obviously it imples that God's infinite glory was not seen by Moses. The word being God, refers to an identity, and not merely a quality. 'God' in the bible, is never once used in the context of only a personal quality. That is imposing a restricted meaning of the word God, in the verse. Ton theon and theos, carry the same meaning. Both are nouns in reference to an identity. The logical inference is also in Isaiah 9:6, where mighty God is also the everlasting Father, therefore this makes Jesus to be God the Father.
The problem here, is that there is only one Father who is everlasting, and he is God the Father, and yet Jesus is referenced as the everlasting Father. Unless you accept two Fathers of eternity in your theology, then it is no logical that God the Father and the everlasting Father, are two persons. Jesus in the verse, is also the mighty God. Is there a God outside of this mighty God who is Jesus? No.
@@dgreenja Jesus is not God the Father Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16)
I believe that we have been through all this over in facebook. What you want to do, is to separate God the Father from the everlasting Father, which cannot work, because that will be two everlasting Fathers, which becomes two Fathers of eternity. How do you define the eternal Fatherhood of the one true God? Is he three Fathers of eternity, or one composite Father of eternity comprising of three persons? There is only one Father of eternity. Who is he, Jesus alone, or the trinity. Give me a direct answer to this and we go on.
John 1:1 says in the beginning was the Word. That word was God. Not a second person. When the Bible says God it refers to the fullness of God. Not a portion of God. The Word became flesh. God became flesh. God became flesh and dwelt among us. It doesn’t say the son became flesh. When did God become flesh? When Jesus was born of a woman. God became a son in the flesh. God was manifested in the flesh. That man who God became was fully God and fully man. In Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Godhead does not have a body outside of The body of Jesus because God is a spirit. A spirit is an invisible being. God is Holy so he has the title Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is not a different person beside God. Holy Spirit is God. The term Father is relational. God is father to creation, Became a son in the flesh for redemption of mankind and Holy spirit in nature. These are titles used to describe God. God was never known as a trinity or a triune God. These are terms that unbiblical and were made up in the 3rd century.
Your comment is painful as its riddled error. #1. The Word IS a second person as made clear from the context of the prologue and in conjunction with PROS which refers to intimate relationship. #2. Yes, John 1:1C tells us that as to the nature of the Word - the Logos is fully God. #3...I'll finish decimating you tomorrow when I wake up :)
Sahih Luke that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible never says the Word IS a second person. I’m sure you would love it to say that but that’s not the case here sorry. The Bible says that the Word was God. Never does it say that the Word is a second person. If it said that then you would have a point but that’s not what it says. The Bible never even mentions the term second person. That’s a trinitarian term that was used to develop the doctrine of the trinity.
@@footsoldier1188 “Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” Isaiah 44:24 Who was with God? God was with Himself. “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10 None before Him, none after Him, none beside Him. He did it by Himself. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Not a second person of a trinity. If God was a trinity then who was with the trinity? The word was made flesh. When was the word made flesh? When Jesus was born of a woman. God wrapped Himself in flesh. There is only one God and His name is Jesus.
@@andreslanderos3841 I’m sorry but those who believe in oneness/modalism simply don’t understand the trinity. Looking at the fruits of modalism it came from a church who preaches lies. That’s more than enough to tell me this is a lie from the depths of hell
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You never answered Stephan’s question. In 1 hour and 22 minutes of this debate he asked you about Genesis 1:1-25 and your answer was based on Genesis 16. Can you give any evidence in Genesis 1:1-25 that God is more than one individual/person?
@@andreslanderos3841 I don’t presume to isolate 25 verses from their context. Rather, Genesis must be interpreted contextually and canonically.
@@Actschapter7verse55 Sure you don’t but why didn’t you answer the question that he had and jump to Genesis Chapter 16 when he asked you about Genesis chapter 1?
Stephan was schooled and has little knowledge of the bible IMo
@@andreslanderos3841 Again, Genesis 16 is in....GENESIS.
Modalists' jesus prayed to himself, glorified himself, sits at his right hand and grab the book from himself. He also told to himself that he is well pleased of himself. Their jesus is not the jesus of the bible
Jesus said in John 2, 'destroy this body, and in three days I will raise it up.'. The raising of his body from the dead, is synanimous to his glorification, for the body was sown as a natural one and was risen as a spiritual glorified one. Yes, he glorified himself on the third day, as the Resurrection and the Life.
Where praying to himself is concerned, there can be a ues and no to that. Jesus praying to himself, is a relative, and not an absolute truth, and his praying to someone else, is surely not the truth. But to think, which of the following is true? (1) Jesus is the SAME GOD to whom he prayed; (2) Jesus is NOT the same God to whom he prayed. Now don't tell me the answer is 'none of the above'.
Jesus prayed to both the person and the being, and not only the being, unless one can present a bible verse which defines the one prayed to, as only the person and not the being.
@@dgreenja “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." (John 17:20-21)
How do you interpret this?
Speaking of his glorification, yes he glorified himself. He said on Jn 2:19, that if they destroyed his body he will raise it up. The raising of his own body from.the dead, is the same as his glorifying that body. He is the resurrection and the life. As the life he glorifies himself in that visible finite existence of his.
Speaking of praying to himself, he did just that, where flesh prayed to the Spirit, as he who prayed, is the same God who answered the prayers which came from the man he became, without ceasing to be the God who heard the prayers of his own flesh. The deity of Jesus, divinely Fathered his human existence, which explains why humanity prayed to divinity.
I am not sure if you want a selective interpretation, based on the latter part of the verse, or a general interpretation of the entire verse.
This was wonderful. Thank you Pastor Burgos for clarifying so succinctly.
Man! The oneness people are soooo hard headed! Even when you corner them with indisputable logic they talk their way out with arguments that make no logical sense at all. How can you even debate someone who doesn't subscribe to plain logic? It's so very frustrating.
Any rational person would assume that when you say, "Let us go" or "Let's go" that you are speaking of more than just yourself, yet this man tries to argue that it depends on the context. I can't think of any rational context where you use a plural to refer to a singular.
Michael, you have the patience of Job. I couldn't do it. These people refuse to be swayed. I think God Himself could come down and explain His nature to them and they would still stiffen their hearts and dispute it. Is it pride? Or can they really believe what they're saying? This guy seems fairly intelligent so I just can't see how he can seriously make the arguments he's trying to make.
I think oneness Pentecostals just hold on to the monotheism of God and they think the Holy Trinity isn’t monotheistic. They have a misunderstanding on the Holy Trinity, and even when shown Bible verses and it’s explained they still reject it. They want to hold on to their view of God. Even a 5 year old can differentiate between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They can read the verses and know they’re district persons yet one God.
@@lr489 Yes, exactly. And God tells us to come to Him as little children so I always try to read my Bible with a child's attitude.
I know when I was young and would read it everything seemed to make sense to me, but as an adult you start to question things. Whenever I get sidetracked with a passage I always think back to what it meant to me when I was younger and it suddenly makes sense. The Holy Spirit helps too, of course.
That brings up another issue, why isn't the Holy Spirit helping these people understand the error in their thinking? Do they not have the Holy Spirit? I just can't wrap my mind around their thinking.
@@lr489 the best example in my view, of the expressed belief in monotheism, is in Jesus who Himself as a Jew as well as an Israelite, regarded Deut 6:3-4. My question to any trinitarian theologian is this; Did Jeus being a Jew and an Israelite, serve and worship the one and only God of the bible, and does that negate Jesus as God? If the God of the Lord Jesus, can't be defined as one within the same context of Deut 6:4, then numerically how is the God of Jesus, to be defined?
May God bless people like you Michael, who defend the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the nature of God against heresies.
"I like to deal with plain english." Unfortunately the english language is very weak when it comes to words and their meanings. Going to the original text provides more insight into what is being said. Not wanting to reference the original text leans to a sort of ignorance. Don't you think?
Trinity = Polytheism
The Shield of the Trinity is a visual representation of the Trinity, which came from the Athanasian Creed. That creed is...
_The Father is not the Son._
_The Son is not the Holy Spirit._
_The Holy Spirit is not the Father._
_The Father is 100% God._
_The Son is 100% God._
_The Holy Spirit is 100% God._
So, if all 3 persons are 100% god, you have 3 gods. There's no way around that, no matter how hard you try to redefine words in the English language. But what concerns me more than the actual fallacy of the Trinity is this... What do you call the entity of all 3 persons combined? Trinitarians refer to that as the Godhead, right? So if you have 3 persons that are 100% god, and the Godhead is also 100% god, then you actually have a 4th god. For example...
Father = God
+ Son = God
+ Holy Spirit = God
F + S + H = Godhead
Therefore, the Godhead is a 4th entity. Trinitarians try really hard to spin words, but you actually have 4 gods in your belief system. The Trinity should actually be called the Quadrinity. There's no logical argument around that if you believe the Athanasian Creed and the Shield of the Trinity.
Also, God (the Father) spoke to Moses. God has a voice. Jesus spoke to his disciples. Jesus also has a voice. The Holy Spirit said he speaks what god commands him to speak, which means the Holy Spirit also has a voice. All 3 gods have distinct voices. So if you were familiar with their distinct voices, you would be able to decipher who is speaking to you without having to make eye contact with that 'god'. So if they all have distinct voices, what would it sound like if the Godhead spoke? Your Godhead absolutely must have a distinct voice, right? Since the Godhead has a distinct voice, different from the individual voices of each person, then you have 4 distinct voices. Again, your Trinity should be renamed to Quadrinity.
Therefore...
Trinity = Polytheism = *No Salvation for You!*
How do you solve that the Father has a will and Jesus has a separate will?
@@scotthix2926
Exactly. And apparently the Holy Spirit has its own will, too. When Jesus prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane, he said let YOUR will be done, not my own. That's 3 wills from 3 persons (with 3 distinct voices)... which equals 3 gods.
The false doctrine of the trinity is the reason Christianity is falling apart. People with common sense and fundamental reasoning will never accept the _3 persons in 1 Godhead_ nonsense. It doesn't make any sense, but when you point that out to them, then Christians say God is too big to fully comprehend. But doesn't the Bible say _God is NOT the author of confusion?_ Now what's their excuse?
@@thewallcometh1444 first off, "author of confusion" is about speaking in tongues and worship service, not his characteristics. I could say "author of confusion" about anything if taken out of context. A giant ship floats but a rock sinks, gravity is confusing. I dont think trinity is confusing at all.
A rock has 1 being and no person
A human has 1 being and 1 person
Why cant God have 1 being and 3 persons
@@thewallcometh1444 so God was faking a second will?
@@scotthix2926
Wow, the level of psychobabble (and contradiction) is mind-boggling. How can you redefine the word "author" to imply the verse is about speaking? The definition of "author" is one who writes literature. Someone who talks or narrates is a "speaker", not an "author." But some pastor made up nonsensical excuses to get around _God is not the author of confusion_ and you gobbled it up as if it's true...without even thinking for yourself. Just amazing.
There's nothing confusing about why ships float. The engineering and science behind the amount (and weight) of the water displaced by the ship, versus its mass, determines whether it floats or not. What's _confusing_ to you is actually taught in 7th grade Physical Science class.
Also, the concept of 3 persons in 1 being is psychologically impossible to grasp because most people aren't so easily duped by psychobabble. 1 person in 1 being is easily understood, both on a theological level and a psychological level. You may make a desperate theological argument for the trinity, but not a psychological argument. Because 3-in-1 defies all human logic and understanding. And that's why people are leaving Christianity in masses. And they also roll their eyes because the concept of the trinity is impossible to comprehend. On a psychological level, the trinity is 100% pure nonsensical garbage.
Furthermore, since the Bible says God is not something that walks on the land, swims in the sea, or flies in the air, then common sense and logic dictates Jesus is NOT god. But asking a Trinitarian to use common sense and logic is asking for too much, apparently.
The definition of "being" is _the existence, nature, or essence of a person or living creature._ I consider a rock to be an object, not a being. Most people would agree with me. But to say a rock is a being is yet another example of how Christians redefine words, and stretch truths, to make an argument to support the false doctrine of the trinity.
And I have no idea what you're referring to in asking if God was faking a second will?? My God doesn't fake anything, maybe yours is less honest. The point is Jesus (pbuh) isn't God. There's only ONE God, just like Jesus said. As did every other Prophet before and after Jesus... there's only ONE God worthy of worship.
Recently Rev. David K. Bernard made reference to some points by Mr. Burgos which he wrote in an attempt to contradict Rev. Bernard' writing. Mr. Burgos you might want to have a look at that presentation about your writing, presented by David Bernard, a little over a week ago. I think it is in the WWGS fb discussion group.
Great job Michael Burgos. A mastery of textual exegesis in order to advance the truth of Jesus' pre-existence with the Father over and against the false position promoted by Quicksey.
What? Jesus pre-existed? What's wrong with people? Don't you read the Bible or do you just follow men? Do people know who invented this pagan doctrine that crept into christianity? *There is NO such thing as the Trinity in the Bible* The Bible says that God is ONE. Deut 6:4 One what? Here is the answer John 4:24 God is *A* Spirit (singular) and not a 1st person.
Jesus *NEVER* said He was God, He said He was the Son of God over and over again. Even God is saying the same thing Matt 3:17/Matt 17:5/Luke 9:35/Mark 9:7.
Christ is the *representitive* of God and speaks on His behalf (John 12:49) and not a 2nd person. His only begotten Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of *his* glory, and the *EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS PERSON* The verse says person and not persons. That's why Christ could say the things He said and do the things He did. Because God worked *through* the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:22) and Christ did everything God commanded Him (John 14:31) that's how they are one.
*Eph 4:5-6* There is *one body* and *ONE Spirit* even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; *ONE Lord* one faith, one baptism, *ONE God and Father* of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We have one God who is *A Spirit* (John 4:24) who does ALL these things and not some pagan three in one transformer god.
The Holy Spirit *IS* the Spirit of God (Gen 1:2) and not a 3rd person *Rom **8:14* For as many as are led by *the Spirit of God* they are the sons of God (or do we have multiple Holy Spirits?)
Jesus Christ IS the promised Messiah from the OT, God's Son born of a virgin, the only begotten (1 John 4:9) the perfect man/human. And not a pre-existed being. The perfect man would show us the Father by representing Him on earth and that is why He IS the image of God *Eph 4:4* In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who *IS the image of God* should shine unto them. Do people know what an image is? That means you are NOT God.
*The Trinity is an old pagan three in one god religion*
ruclips.net/video/zgvmv9MlR_0/видео.html
The Trinity doctrine came from Babylon adopted by Philo of Alexandria a Jewish Greek Mystic Philospher (Col 2:8) and adored by the so called Church Fathers (Roman Catholic Church) taught by the Catholic Counsels and Creeds, planted in the semminaries and commentaries. And now 99% of Christianity is preaching this popular pagan doctrine. The Trinity is the reason why the RCC has the mother of god heresy. That is God the Son (2nd person, co-equal, co-eternal ect) is born. God is born? See the implications?
ruclips.net/video/EolwY4DqTeM/видео.html
@@JudeOne3Four : Yes, Jesus did pre-exist WITH the Father - taught in SCRIPTURE.
@@Abinitio777 So you have a demi-god. Can you post the verse please?
@@JudeOne3Four :
Heb 10:5, speaking of Christ reads:
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have ot desired, but a body you have prepared for me" (cf. Psa 40:6 [39:7, LXX])
This is of christological importance as it shows that the persons of the Father and the Son are distinct from one another in a way that is incompatible with Oneness Pentecostal and other similar Christologies. Why? In this passage, the person of the Son speaks to another person, distinct from him, who prepared (κατηρτίσω, second person indicative aorist middle of καταρτιζω ["to prepare"]) the (σωμα) body of Christ--they are not one and the same person!
A question to be posted to proponents of Oneness Pentecostalism and others who hold to a form of Modalism should be asked--to whom did Christ address his words? BIBLICAL Trinitarians do not have to strain the plain meaning of the text by arguing that the speaker and the addressee of this locution are one and the same person! Such an interpretation is theological rubbish.
Burgos excellent good! To God be the glory
K. Johnson
The Holy Spirit of God is not God the Holy Spirit of God, nor the Holy Spirit God from whom comes the three persons Father, Son, Spirit of God!
The Holy Spirit of God is a man, having his own material body, a spiritual material man body without an inner Spirit of man, as man was before he had his spirit of man formed within him:
'for what man (having a material tangible body) knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of a man save (Greek, if not) the spirit of man within him even so no one knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of God except the Spirit of God' within God's God material Spirit man body to complete the thought of parallel thoughts.
What spirit of man within his man is equal to the man he is within except when sent? 1st Corinthians 2:11.
The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead.
The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead:
No man knows what God has prepared for them that love him but God has sent his Spirit to reveal those things God has prepared for the Spirit 'searches all things yes the deep things of God' to know them.
Why would God send his Spirit to search all things including the deep things of God? The Holy Spirit of God doesn't know them!.
What God would need to search all things yes to include the deep things of God, except to know them? No God would need to search all things yes the deep things of God to know them!!!.
The Holy Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead, yes?
@@leonardhunt5677 wow you're confused. Pray that tge holy spirit guides you to all truth
Dr. Burgos, do you affirm the eternal generation of the Son? I was surprised you did not mention that when he asked you what only begotten Son meant?
Yes.
So sounds like we have a debate in which neither person knows how to rightly divide the word of truth......only the Comforter , the Spirit of Truth can give a person the true understanding of the word ....
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. ( no this verse was not added to later Biblical texts it was taken out by the Gnostics in some of the corrupted texts).
How can it not be important to look at the original text with the meaning of those words, since we definitely loose some meanings in any translation to another language and then if we have to translate through 2 languages....Hebrew & Greek to Latin, to English., we do need to have resources to know what in the language it was written in the words that the text was translated from meant.
As great as this modalist theology sounds, the early church fathers rejected modalism/saballism/monarchism as a heresy. As early as the 1st century AD, the early church fathers write supporting trinitarian beliefs prior to the catholic church arising. www.velocity.net/~edju70/web/Trinity1.htm The problem is our lack of knowledge of church history and teaching of known rejected error/heresy in the early church. This is what happens when finite man tries to superimpose onto the text (eisegesis) or to God himself what makes sense to human thinking, we then make God into human likeness and reduce him into our own likeness. God's ways are higher then our ways and his thoughts are higher then our thoughts.
Heresies resurface over and over again. Heresy mixes some truth with error. 95% truth plus 5% error = 100 % error.
Jesus couldn't be echad with himself. Husband and wife are told to be one in marriage, though they are two seperate individuals with different roles. Believers are told to be echad=one as the Father and Son are echad=one. Believers are individuals with different roles and they are told to be echad=one as the Father and Son are echad.
How can Jesus pray to Himself?
How does He choose to do God's will, not his own if he is God the Father?
How does Jesus go into the water for baptism, crack the sky open and descend as a dove ( holy Spirit) and simultaneously declare about himself, "This is my beloved son?" This would simply be self glorification. How can the Son be seated at the right hand of the Father after the resurrection?
What about these three verses in Revelation?
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Clearly these verses mention that the remnant will follow the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus or sing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb. If they were one completely you wouldn't see this.
John 1:1 is enough for oneness people to know the truth but their eyes are blind as 2Co 4:4 . Pray for them
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.
This is not trinity this is the godhead
The Angel of the Lord was YHWH himself in visible form. The Logos. The Angel or Logos was the same in the OT. The distinction between the Angel and YHWH was the angel was the VISIBLE IMAGE of the omnipresent Spirit. Not 2 distinct God persons.
The Angel of Yahweh speaks to and is spoken to by
Yahweh. They are not the same person. Moreover, if the Angel is merely the "VISIBLE IMAGE" of God, then why does the Angel speak from heaven as in Gen. 22? Your viewpoint is ad-hock and unattested.
@@Actschapter7verse55 Every time the angel is mentioned is not THE ANGEL. There is at least 100 million angels. The angel of YHWH "Logos" spoke to Abraham from Heaven because he was in Heaven. The Logos was the image in heaven as well as in Earth.
Michael Gibson not true. There isn’t even one occurrence of “an Angel of the LORD” in the OT. Not one.
@@Actschapter7verse55 You are the first person I ever heard say this. Revelation 5:11 says there are 100 million angels before the throne and thou
sands of thousands.
@@Actschapter7verse55 BTW note Judges 2:1 to see an angel of the Lord.
Burgos. Youre a great defender of the Trinity. Ive seen a lot of your debates w non-Trinitarian. Im longing to see you debate with Gregg Stafford. He's active on youtube: CwJahTube. Im a Trinitarian btw 😁
I was unaware that Stafford was still active. I'll check out his material. I read JWs Defended years ago.
The Trinity teaching - one God is three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit of God - cannot be, since the Spirit of God is THE HOLY SPIRIT 'OF ' GOD Not The Holy Spirit God.
The Holy Spirit of God is neither God nor part of the Godhead:
God has prepared for them that love him things no one knows but they are revealed by his Spirit for the Spirit searches all things yes the deep things of God.
Why would the Spirit need to search all things to include the deep things of God? To know them; the Spirit of God needs to search all things including the deep things of God to know them.
'No one knows (Greek, knows but not by experience) the things of God except the Spirit of God' within God's God material Spirit man body to complete the thought of parallel thoughts.
Even the Spirit of God doesn't know the things of God by experience but is sent to search all things, all things, INCLUDING the deep things of God?
Why is the Holy Spirit of God sent to search all things? The Holy Spirit of God doesn't know them.
Would any God need to search all things yes the deep things of God to know them? The Holy Spirit of God is not God!!!!!!!!!! 1 st Corinthians 2:9-10.
@@Actschapter7verse55 I'd love to see a debate with you and Rodger Perkins. You stay in a humble spirit even as you speak the truth.
It is true that the plain reading of the verse with regards to not seeing God, says that no man has seen God at any time. While it is true that the verse didn't differentiate seeing God in His fullness from not seeing Him in His fullness, this distinction is found in other verses of scripture. The biblical positions of seeing God and not seeing God, are relatives and not absolutes. Moses on one hand didn't see God, yet on the other hand He saw God. To see the back parts of God, is actually to see God. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. While Jesus as a human being, was seen, at the same time in His divine nature or as God, He was never seen, which is one of the examples why I am of the view that seeing and not seeing God, are relatives and not absolutes. But you have made the St. John 1:18 to be an absolute without regards to other verses which specifically mention that God was seen. Furthermore, God by nature being Spirit, is it incorrect to say that no man has seen the divine essence of God? I believe this is what St. Jn 1:18 is referring to. Is "God" there referring to person only, the divine essence only, or both the person and the divine essence?
The one who spread abroad the earth by himself, is the Father. Isaiah 44:24. God never created through a personal agent as trinitarians think Hebrews 1 is saying.
Good debate. We can see very clear the Oneness believe in God the Son and God the Father existing as a same person
Most of Michael's supporters barely went thru this video.
Half the Trinitarian clan don't what they believe in or what to believe in. The only way one wants to escape the idea of explaining a trinity is to say it's a "mystery"...
First, I've demonstrated that your claim about "what trinitarians believe" is abjectly false. Second, how on earth would you know "Most of Michael's supporters barely went thru this video"? Perhaps you should stop making ridiculous and transparent claims.
@@Actschapter7verse55 hi Michael, glad you responded on time. I've just dropped a mail in your inbox (pastor.burgos@northwesthillschurch.org). Do confirm the same.
@@Gabyrock89 I didn't know I was on a schedule. Check your email.
No my brother, the radiance of his glory, doesn't equate to one person being the radiance of another person, for it presents Jesus as only the reflection of the reflected, and not also the reflected of the reflection. The complete glory of God and the radiance of the same, applies to all of who and what God is. There I can correctly refer to the radiance of the glory of the one God. Jesus being God, means He is the radiance of His own glory, for He possesses all of what God is. Now just to think, if Jesus is the brightness or the radiance of God's glory, and no man can see God and live, then it stands to reason that St. Jn 1:18 can be conflated with 1Tim 3:16 where while being a man on earth, at the same time He maintained that unapproachable light (1Tim 6:16 ) or radiance and brightness which was hid in order that men would not die. So while men saw Jesus, at the same time men never saw Him as God, otherwise they would die.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
According to unitarian the father is talking to himself smh
Trinity is the only way to not contradict the Bible!
Re Hebrews 1:1-2, if the Son was not revealed in the OT which I agree with, then do you agree with the oneness position that anywhere in the OT God spoke, that it is the Father who spoke, and never the Son? God who spoke in times past by the prophets, included the Isaiah verses, eg chapter 44:6, has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son. In my view on the matter, I think the trinitarian theology doesn't define the Father as the one and only God of the two testaments, but rather to define Him as one of three persons of the trinity, which to me is a misrepresentation of who He is.
If Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, then what Spirit is the apostle Paul meaning, and which Lord, in the following verse? 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Also, if Jesus is not the Holy Spirit then did the apostle Peter make a mistake? For he said that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets that spoke of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow:
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Peter the apostle, in his second letter identified the same 'Spirit of Christ' as the Holy Ghost:
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Trinity doctrine categorically states that the Son is not the Holy Ghost, how then does this exemplify the above passages of scripture?
adysaxman 77
2nd Corinthians 3:17 'now the Lord is that Spirit' is speaking of the meaning of the words written before this; the words which came after this phrase weren't in the context of that which was.
2nd Corinthians 3:1-16 contrasted the commandments (law) written in stone, in ink - the ministration of condemnation -
with the law of righteousness written in the hearts of flesh - the ministration of righteousness;
the ministration of condemnation was glorious but the ministration of righteousness is exceedingly more glorious:
now the Lord is that Spirit, which is the spirit of the ministration of righteousness - every administration brings with it its own spirit of dispensing its authority: grace and truth came by Jesus Christ John 1:14.
adysaxman 77
John 8:17-18's teaching, approved by the Father (God) John 8:28, 12:49-50, 14:9-10, according to Jesus' listeners' law, Jesus had two men witnesses for himself. These two men witnesses would testify as before a judge. As witnesses each would know personally.
The two men witnesses would each have his own material body with a spirit of man within him Genesis 2:7a-d with Zechariah 12:1.
Jesus would have his own mortal material body with a spirit of man (spirit of God's Son Galatians 4:6, spirit of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:19, spirit of Christ Romans 8:9) within him.
The Father (God) is a man means the Father (God) has his own material body with a spirit of man within him: his own God material Spirit man body with a Spirit of man, the Holy Spirit of God 1st Corinthians 2:11, within him ( within God's God material Spirit man body).
John 8:17-18's teaching, when defining the words used, there is shown a conclusive difference between the Father and the Son.
How could it be that the Spirit of Christ revealed the sufferings of Christ before the Christ had come?
Isaiah 44:26 'declaring the end from the beginning' concerning Christ by the Spirit of Christ even as Genesis 1:2 was declared before the flood in Noah's day Genesis chapter 6-7.
John 8:17-18's teaching also explains the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of Christ, God's Son's spirit of man within him, because Jesus was a man 'in all things' Hebrews 2:17.
The Trinitarian doctrine deceitfully steals the true identity of Jesus. If Jesus is not the Holy Ghost, then Jesus' promise is void & can't be trusted when he said
"I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you"
Stefan made reference, and rightly so, to Isaiah 9:6. Trinitarians would have me to believe that God the Father and the everlasting Father, are two persons. If that be the case, then how many everlasting Fathers or Fathers of eternity, do the scriptures present? Who can deny that God the everlasting Father, IS the Father of eternity?
Stefan has also made a good point with Hebrews 1:1-2, where the one God in the OT, never spoke to his creation through the Son. Stefan so far, is doing well. I am yet to listen more of this debate.
Your jesus prayed to himself, glorified himself, sits at his right hand and grab the book fr himself. He also told to himself that he is well pleased of himself. Your jesus is not the jesus of the bible
The Jesus of the bible, is surely not the Jesus of anybody's trinity. He is all of who and what God is. Jesus being God, is an omnipresent Spirit who took on a human existence, thus linking him as one omnipresent Spirit, to the incarnation. The Father cannot be that same omnipresent Spirit, unless he is also that Spirit in the incarnation.
@@dgreenja God never want to confuse His people. We dont think that Jesus claimed that all.
Any aspect of God's identity Jesus is not, simply means he is not God at all. The God who is Jesus, is not a part of God, because he as God is never a part of himself.
All trinitarians need to do is to maintain two basic truths about God, that he is Spirit (singular) and that he is one, where being one he is a complete being. So then anywhere in the bible where God is mentioned, monotheism comes into view.
When you receive the revelation of the nature of God that he is one, and that he is Spirit, then all those points of yours, should be understood.
Re: Isaiah 9:6: For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
In just reading that passage as a babe in Christ and not someone schooled in Greek, Hebrew, or anything else, I believe those names were intended to show the roles of Jesus more than his actual title or name. I read it as he plays a fatherly role to his disciples and to everyone else who follows him. It has to be that because Jesus clearly distinguished Himself from God the Father by telling us that no one knows the day or hour He would return, not even Him, but only the Father. Plus, there are plenty of other examples where Jesus differentiated Himself from the Father.
Since we know the Bible can't contradict itself, that has to mean that this passage in Isaiah doesn't mean that Jesus is God the Father.
Yes , Trinitarians do use that scripture as proof text, but jesus will be our eternal father since he is the second adam, first adam would have been our father but he disobeyed, mighty god is a title applied to jesus since he will be king of God's kingdom for 1000 years then he hands it back to his father , prince of peace well he will bring peace on this earth when the kingdom will replace all earthly kingdoms daniel 2:44
Many times jesus said he has a God that he worships , and prayed to while on earth , he sits at right side of God, and scriptures don't contradict each other
The everlasting Father only means Father of everlasting, like if I develop something big, I will be called father of development
@@christianspear6322 trinitarians use that verse to support there view but they teach jesus isn't the father . If we take that scripture literally then you have 2 fathers and that csnt work .
The title everlasting father is applied to jesus cause he was the last adam who brought back what first adam lost . Perfect life in paradise earth. If adam remained faithful he would have been our earthly father . So in that sense jesus is our everlasting father
THE TRINITY AND THE WORD GOD
The word God in Hebrew is ELOHIM and it is applied in the scriptures to the Father, Son, Men, Angels, let us see some cases
1) ANGELS --- ELOHIM. Psamls 8: 5-6; 97: 7; 138: 1
2) Men --- ELOHIM. Psamls 82: 1,6,7; 29: 1 Exodus 4: 16; 7: 1; 21: 6; 22: 7,8,27
My question is, if every time the word ELOHIM ( God ) is used to Angels, Men, are we going to think that we are in the presence of a trinity or the ONLY TRUE GOD ?
The Hebrew mind did not have any problem with the application of the term God ( Elohim ) in different contexts.
THE FACT THAT THE EXALTED CHRIST HAS A GOD IN HEAVEN INDICATES THAT HE IS NOT IQUAL TO THE FATHER AS THE ALMIGHTY. APOCALYPSE 3: 12
1) Everyone who has a God is because that God is more powerful than themselves.
2) Everyone who has a God is because is worshiping that God.
How is Christ going to be the only God and will have a God to worship? John 20:17 (note that here he is in the flesh as a limited human but in the following text he is already in heavenly glory )
In Revelation 3: 12, Christ says the name God four times, there is no text in the Bible to remember the word God appears 4 times in the same verse. Notice also that Revelation 3: 12 tells us that he receives a new name. What new name can Almighty God receive? What can be new for God ? We are going to receive a new name as Christ also Revelation 2: 17.
The Father is the God of Christ, but the Father has no God to worship, so He has no superior, the Father is the only Highest. The only way the Father is the God of Christ in heaven is if Christ is inferior to the Father and is different from the Father.
Care to debate your non sequitors and fallacies?
You have to be either a "greek scholar" or a functioning tritheist to be Trinitarian.
The Bible clearly says that Jesus was human (and of course Divine in identity). The man Christ Jesus, as the human that grew in wisdom, slept, and was able to die, prayed to God. He is our example in everything including prayer.
From the Trinitarian perspective, God #2 didn't leave heaven voluntarily (John 8:42) and had an opposing will to God #1 (Luke 22:42).
God manifests Himself in different modes or forms. The Holy Spirit descended in bodily FORM like a dove (Luke 3:22) and Jesus "appeared in another FORM unto two of them, as they walked...BUT THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEM EITHER (Mark 16:12-13)."
In 1 John 1:2, John says the Word in John 1:1 is "that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us."
Therefore, Jesus says "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself
(John 5:26). "Life" is not another person in John 5 or in John 1. How can a Trinitarian explain how can God#1 grant life to God#2, if he's co-eternal?
The mystery of godliness is that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim.3:36). Another mystery revealed to the Church is Christ in us (Col.1:27), which shines light on Jesus becoming a life-giving spirit (1 Cor.15:45).
Nowhere in the Bible is there any explicit revelation, statement or teaching of a multipersonal or triune God. What does exist is a book at the end of the Bible called the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, who repeatedly says He is the beginning AND the end, the Alpha AND the Omega, God AND the Lamb. In it, Jesus says, "He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son (Rev.21:7)."
Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Christianity, but we believe Christ was human. In any event, thanks for stopping by.
Low-key 196
Amen to that
If one is not already confused concerning the Godhead, all it takes is listening to a Trinitarian try as they might to explain it, to become as lost as a green golfball in tall weeds often for a lifetime. Billy Graham once stated, we believe in the Trinity, we pray to the Trinity but don't ask us to explain it because we can't.
That is an interesting opinion, albeit an opinion nonetheless.
Do you claim to fully understanding God? How foolish
No, I claim only to uphold the teaching of Scripture. @@christismylordandgod
I really enjoyed this discussion. I never heard of a oneness Pentecostal before.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel, YHWH our God is ONE (Echad)
Malachi 3:6 reads YHWH does not change. Therefore, the key to understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be found in the verse Deuteronomy 6:4.
To rightly dived the word would be to study the actual word echad. Echad is the Hebrew word for one, but more precisely it means a single entity; but made up of more than one part.
Another Hebrew word from the same root is Yachid which means single or one.
The writer purposely chose Echad to describe God as Elohim. Elohim is a plural word - more than one being called God
Consider scriptures like this all throughout the bible: Isaiah 48:16 And now YHWH and His Spirit have sent Me
Three entities can be clearly seen in that verse. God is Echad, which is the plural for Elohim - His nature is not singular.
We are all children of God and should not call anyone’s belief false until we have studied the scriptures. Faith, hope, and Love.
Why's trinitarian used so many scripture to explain what they believed that there's one God with three persons. Lord open our understanding that we make know that their is one God Deu.6,4.He only to be served ours Christ. Jesus Amen.
"... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
John 14:9
Eric Gideon
Would you say that 'he that has seen me has seen the Father' John 14:9 would be similar to 'the express (exact) image (doing the works) of his person' Hebrews 1:3, 'the image (doing the works) of the invisible God' Colossians 1:15?
@@leonardhunt5677 Your adding to the scripture. Your adding your own words. Why not just read it the way it's written?
@@ericgideon9237 How do you reconcile these passages? I find no fault, and you find no fault, since you show no Bible refutation with them.
Leonard Hunt in what way? You’ve added things to God’s word (in brackets). How can I add to God’s word? I will not
@@ericgideon9237 You add to God's word; in fact you must add to God's word to understand what is said, Scripture doesn't define in all passages the words used which God expects us to do to understand the depth of what he has sent.
The word 'express' means 'exact', the word 'image' means 'doing the works' and likewise.
The added definition, word or phrase, is in brackets to distinguish the definition, addition, from the Scriptures written, as Scripture has not been written in brackets as I have read.
I could have written more wording but I consider the least is simpler to read, digest and comprehend. You still have the separation between Scripture and the additions. It's a way to be true to Scripture and its definition plainly.
What is a man? The Scripture doesn't explain in one context does it? God the Father is a man and a Spirit John 8:17-18's teaching and John 4:24; still not in one context only.
If Heb. 1:8 is God speaking to God...there are 2 Gods. Simple. So the assumption that the Trinitarian Michael believes in monotheism is not true after all. It was actually God speaking to his Son Jesus in point of time, revealing to him his deity. As a man Jesus did not know this until it was revealed to him by his God.
That is your eisegetically imposed opinion. You'll have to demonstrate that from the actual text, not merely assert it. Thanks
Excellent bro. Burgos. 👏 Blessings.
Mr. Michael Burgos. Greetings to you sir. I will ask you this; what constitutes God being the Father? Does his being the Father, incorporate his deity? If yes, then because there is only one deity, would I be incorrect to say that the deity of Jesus, is actually the Father, seeing that the Father is not another deity?
dgreenja
I would reply You have to define 'one' in the New Testament one God meaning, that is to say, 'single, one of a unity'.
Eternal life is to know the Father the only true God and Jesus Christ who he had sent John 17:3. Included within 'knowing the Father and Jesus Christ to have eternal life' is to 'love your neighbor as yourself' Matthew 19:15-19.
This perspective of 'one' is found also within John 1:1's definition of God in the beginning:
'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God' both written as God, separately, individually, identifiably.
Every word must come into existence, in its context, after the existence of its originator
Every word must be formed to identify the thought meant
Every God (as God would identify a God as his equal) must meet his criteria: 'before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me' Isaiah 43:10
The conclusion:
The Word was God who began when God began, neither before nor after God began ; the Word couldn't, because of these, neither God's word, plan, or idea could be 'the Word was God' who was with God.
The Word was made flesh, mortal man Jesus. John 1:14. The mortal man Jesus was not a true God John 17:3 in his mortal material body. Only as a man in all things - nature, eternal life, body, glory, abilities, knowledge [without a God nature] - could Jesus be a merciful and faithful high priest to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people' Hebrews 2:17.
After Jesus had died and risen bodily to heaven John 20:17, 2nd Corinthians 5:2,4 (1st Corinthians 15:53, Romans 8:18-23, 1st Corinthians 15:23, Colossians 1:18),
begotten of God Acts13:33,
Jesus, by God, was anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows and then, having been God the Word, was appointed to be God alongside himself, the Father (God) Hebrews 1:8-9.
Jesus is now God Almighty over mankind John 5:22,27, Ephesians 1:22-23, Matthew 28:18
The Father (God) is God Almighty over heaven and under the authority of Jesus to the church 1st Corinthians 12:5-6 voluntarily 1st Corinthians 15:27.
@@leonardhunt5677 a number of verses reveal God to be unipersonal in nature, where his oneness is a solitary one. This solitary oneness, in no way negates this same God, being a united one. The concept that many have, that unity must demand the coming together of more than one personal entity as one, is foreign to the scriptures. The word heis, which is the greek word for 'one' speaks of unity, and is applied to a single-personhood, in several places in the NT. In fact, that word heis, is never once applied to a tripersonal being in the NT.
John 1:1: Within the trinitarian and binitarian view, God and the Word means two persons. Now such a conclusion cannot stand for a number of reasons; (1) God and his logos, are never distinguishable persons, as God is inseparable from his word, both in nature and identity; his word is he himself. The verse presents Jesus as both the ton theon and the theos (2) for the ton theon and the theos to be two persons, then there will also have to be a distinction between the ton theon and the theos, which creates two God. It is erroneous for any trinitarian and binitarian to say that 'God' with respect to the logos, means the quality, but not an identity. A clear identity is given, that the word was God; that is a clear identity; (3) because the verse presents only one God, in terms of both person and being, then the verse can be written as thus 'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Father, and the word was the Father'. The Father's logos is what embodies all his attributes and qualities, which are all a part of the Father himself, all of which embodiment is he himself, as he cannot carry attributes and qualities which are not he himself by nature, hence attributes/nature/qualities/characteristics = to the literal substance of the same. So the entire being of God, inclusive of his attributes, qualities and nature, which lie within the logos, is equal to the Father himself by identity.
With those other verses which you think proves Jesus to be distinct from God, then tritheism becomes apparent, because there is no way that God who is one, will anoint another divine person with the oil of gladness, without doing so to another God.
This anointing took place within time, where the man Jesus was anointed by God. The God who anointed the man, is the same God who took on that living human expression which received that anointing, in short, the deity of Jesus, anointer his humanity. This oil of gladness, is a divine unction which comes from the very power and nature of God himself, which power Jesus in his divinity had, while he was on earth as a limited human being which needed anointing. So then, Jesus was never anointed as God, for as God he remained infinite, while having a finite human existence, at the same time. His divinity was never limited by his humanity. There are things he knew as God, which at the same time he never knew as a man. He grew in wisdom and knowledge, but in his human existence only; he never grew is wisdom and knowledge as God. When that human brain of his was blank, at his birth, knowing nothing, it was different in his deity. So while as a baby he knew nothing, that cannot be said of him as God, that as God he likewise knew nothing. Trinitarians try unsuccessfully to limite his deity to the relative finite level of his humanity, so that whatever he does not know as a man, he does not know as God either; that is not so. His divinity and humanity, were never equal, but that he maintained his infiniteness as God while at the same time having a limited existence as a human being.
@@dgreenja I would think to reply to you when you verify your conclusions with Scripture passages, even showing within them how each applies.
@@dgreenja John 8:17-18's teaching makes plain this one God of the New Testament must be two distinct men, not just two distinct persons (personalities).
Further the John 8:17-18's teaching, and others, assert the Spirit of God is not God nor part of the Godhead 1st Corinthians 2:9-10, 11, nor is the same as the spirit of Christ, the spirit of God's Son Galatians 4:6.
More online debate..Trinity vs Unitarian.
Poor Stefan
So ask ur self micheal ,,if u believe that God is the creator why wud he need anything or anyone to create ....further no one else has the ability to create .....God himself bears this power ..... it sounds like u dont understand the Godhead. ....
Complete Jewish Bible by David Stearn a Jew himself. Page 1561 defines avi ad as "Eternal Father". So Jesus is the Eternal Father. So if he is ALSO the Eternal Son then Jesus would be both!
David Stern also supports the Nohide laws as having been given to moses (not true) and supports the talmud and misnah.....the talmud says horrible things about the Son of God, Jesus.
Michael won easily
According to the Trinity doctrine the Son of God is almighty. However, it can be easily verified from the gospels that this statement is false: the Son of God - on the contrary - is NOT almighty. The miracles are in reality always made by the Father (see the Lazarus' resurrection). Hence, the Trinity doctrine states falsehood, in other terms is false. But of course: in the universe there is place for only ONE omnipotent person! Two omnipotent persons would be limiting and conflicting each other and therefore not really be ALLmighty. The reality is different:
Jesus WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD in a very remote past. The only difference from before is that He is now like a normal man since He FORSOOK his power. The almighty God therefore is ONLY in that past and therefore "no one ever saw God". However, from that past God is able to REACH US here in the LIMITED FORM of a spirit "God is a spirit". For example when you have someone on the phone, you can say that he is present in your room "in the limited form of a spirit" since you can talk to him, but you cannot touch him: he is absent. That all is a kind of "workaround" since the almighty God cannot be directly here, indeed "the world has not known you".
Jesus said "...I spake what I heard and saw from God".
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. This is indisputable. Jesus prayed to the father and said, your will not my will be done.
The jesus of the oneness are schizophrenic and psychotic, an insult to the one lord.
My man, He took on the likeness of a servant. He made Himself of no reputation. He put Himself in a lower position. His children took on flesh and blood, and He did the same. A man is lower in position than God. Yeshua doesn’t care about His position, He cares about His children having life. Yeshua is our God and Father.
Anyone who says otherwise calls Yeshua a liar. Yeshua said greater love has no one than to lay down their life for their friends. It doesn’t say lay down your child’s life or someone else’s life, it says your own life. If your 3 gods is true, the son god loves us more than the father god.
Ur too simple minded use ur brain Jesus emptied his glory when became flesh lowered himself lower than the angels and took on the role of a servant so that’s why he prayed because man needs a God
Lade Fajobi are you talking to me or Miguel?
Shai Linne 🔥🔥🔥🔥
If the Son was in heaven b4 as a different person than Father...why no Scriptures of when the Son fly down to enter the Flesh....or No Scripture of the Son impregnating Mary 🤯....also that would make the Holy Spirit the 3rd Son 😂
The Word is the Son
Exactly. Is the Word Speaking itself?
Jesus did say he decended down from heaven , read luke 1 as it tells you son of the most high God will be born, God's power overshadowed Mary so she can give birth to perfect son jesus
Im good with Jesus being his own Father. I affirm it to be foundational to New Testament doctrine. Many Oneness shy from that that is due to a lack of good teaching on the subject. They are good on simple Oneness but a few points need to go deeper.
As far as Heb. 1:8 just being my opinion isnt what you say just yours? If God is speaking to God that means there are 2 Gods. If God is speaking to his Son (in humanity) revealing to him his identity the Oneness of God is preserved and the doctrine that Christ is both God and man.
Stefan J is the clear winner.
He is using the scripture more than Burgos.
He is not trying to use hypothetical reasoning or church history to prove his point.
He really got him with the "2 fathers in the trinity" point.
Not really... In John 8 the Jews were trying to claim Abraham and God as their Father. Many Jews looked to father Abraham and others as the father's of the nation. Accepting both as father doesn't necessitate sameness of Fatherhood, rather they are father's in different capacities and relationship to the people of God. Abraham was never misunderstood as God the Father, neither should we conclude the same about Jesus Christ: the future Messiah. This is what is implied in Isa 9:6. The future Messiah would be the succession of the fathership of the people of God. This doesn't not diminish nor mix the nature of God's Fatherhood as God the Father, with the Son's relationship to the children which Father the has given him.
Stefan J. is not looking at the texts IN CONTEXT. He repeatedly uses Eisegesis ( superimposing a personal belief onto the text, then looking for text to support a personal belief) rather then exegesis ( letting the text speak for itself, looking at scripture line upon line and precept upon precept). Also Stefan clearly lacks the understanding of using study helps to see what the underlying texts actually said and what those words in the original languages. You cannot translate a text from Hebrew/Greek to Latin to English without having some difficulty that different languages without a totally equivalent word and not loose a bit of context. The study helps and original languages help to clarify this.
I agree
@@brendakauffman2222 why wouldn't God just allow for the word "trinity" to be put in the Bible if it were actually true?
The reason why the word "trinity" is not in there is because it's false.
@@brendakauffman2222 By the way you're a woman. Your role in the church is not to teach or have authority over a man.
Burgos win
The error trinitarians make with Jn 1:1, is to read the following in the verse, 'In the beginning was the word (he). And the word (he) was with God (he). And the word was God. Because there is a distinction of the word and God, then in their view it implies one (he) being distinct from another (he). That is not so. This is further proven by the following;
If the word being distinct, implies a distinct person FROM GOD, and not only FROM THE FATHER, then why can't it be concluded that the word as God, is not distinct FROM GOD, to create more than one God? It makes no sense that the Father being distinct from the word, without God being distinct from the word. In short, two persons speaks of two Gods, irrespective of how trinitarians try to maintain three persons without tritheism.
Moses saw only God's backparts, which symbolizes a part of God's glory, and not his face, which symbolizes God's infinite glory, so when God told Moses that 'no man shall see me and live' obviously it imples that God's infinite glory was not seen by Moses.
The word being God, refers to an identity, and not merely a quality. 'God' in the bible, is never once used in the context of only a personal quality. That is imposing a restricted meaning of the word God, in the verse. Ton theon and theos, carry the same meaning. Both are nouns in reference to an identity.
The logical inference is also in Isaiah 9:6, where mighty God is also the everlasting Father, therefore this makes Jesus to be God the Father.
Jesus would be called mighty father because he has children. We are all children of jesus. Calling him mighty father doesnt mean he is God the Father.
The problem here, is that there is only one Father who is everlasting, and he is God the Father, and yet Jesus is referenced as the everlasting Father. Unless you accept two Fathers of eternity in your theology, then it is no logical that God the Father and the everlasting Father, are two persons.
Jesus in the verse, is also the mighty God. Is there a God outside of this mighty God who is Jesus? No.
@@dgreenja Jesus is not God the Father
Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16)
I believe that we have been through all this over in facebook. What you want to do, is to separate God the Father from the everlasting Father, which cannot work, because that will be two everlasting Fathers, which becomes two Fathers of eternity. How do you define the eternal Fatherhood of the one true God? Is he three Fathers of eternity, or one composite Father of eternity comprising of three persons? There is only one Father of eternity. Who is he, Jesus alone, or the trinity. Give me a direct answer to this and we go on.
John 1:1 says in the beginning was the Word. That word was God. Not a second person. When the Bible says God it refers to the fullness of God. Not a portion of God. The Word became flesh. God became flesh. God became flesh and dwelt among us. It doesn’t say the son became flesh. When did God become flesh? When Jesus was born of a woman. God became a son in the flesh. God was manifested in the flesh. That man who God became was fully God and fully man. In Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Godhead does not have a body outside of The body of Jesus because God is a spirit. A spirit is an invisible being. God is Holy so he has the title Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is not a different person beside God. Holy Spirit is God. The term Father is relational. God is father to creation, Became a son in the flesh for redemption of mankind and Holy spirit in nature. These are titles used to describe God. God was never known as a trinity or a triune God. These are terms that unbiblical and were made up in the 3rd century.
Your comment is painful as its riddled error.
#1. The Word IS a second person as made clear from the context of the prologue and in conjunction with PROS which refers to intimate relationship.
#2. Yes, John 1:1C tells us that as to the nature of the Word - the Logos is fully God.
#3...I'll finish decimating you tomorrow when I wake up :)
Sahih Luke that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible never says the Word IS a second person. I’m sure you would love it to say that but that’s not the case here sorry. The Bible says that the Word was God. Never does it say that the Word is a second person. If it said that then you would have a point but that’s not what it says. The Bible never even mentions the term second person. That’s a trinitarian term that was used to develop the doctrine of the trinity.
@@andreslanderos3841 “and the Word was WITH God.” Why did you skip that verse? If they are the same how is one thing with another thing?
@@footsoldier1188 “Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;”
Isaiah 44:24
Who was with God? God was with Himself.
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”
Isaiah 43:10
None before Him, none after Him, none beside Him. He did it by Himself.
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
Not a second person of a trinity.
If God was a trinity then who was with the trinity?
The word was made flesh. When was the word made flesh? When Jesus was born of a woman. God wrapped Himself in flesh.
There is only one God and His name is Jesus.
@@andreslanderos3841 I’m sorry but those who believe in oneness/modalism simply don’t understand the trinity. Looking at the fruits of modalism it came from a church who preaches lies. That’s more than enough to tell me this is a lie from the depths of hell
Waste of time.😊