As a brass player, it's refreshing to see someone talking about the brass section in a way that isn't "trombones will always blast over the strings all the time." Yah balance can be something to worry about, but brass can also match woodwinds and strings at low dynamics (the second movement of holst's second suite in F for band is a great example of this)
yeh i guess as long as it is on good register most of the instruments can balance each other . More than this: Wagner does not balance trombones and singers on the best parts of Valkyrien
As a brass player and composer, I'm glad he's also breaking the misconception that brass cannot be soft. I had to compose for an odd combination of Instruments for a caroling gig consisting a piccolo, an Alto sax, and a Trombone to accompany the singers--and I managed to make it work. It's not just the instrument operating itself, there is also a human operating it and adjusting the volume to blend, and as much as I love writing big blasty lines for brass, one ought not forget the powerful potential of soft brass lines especially chorale type of lines? *Chef's kiss*
A reliable source explained once that Eugene Ormandy used to add trombone parts to scores to reinforce the underlying harmonic structure. The trombones played at mezzo piano or forte with bells pointed downward rather than out. This had the effect of mellowing the sound as it reflected (as with backward facing horns and upward tuba) and blended with strings, giving that “golden" string sound for which the Philadelphia Orchestra was known. Also, often overlooked by orchestrators is that the tuba is much more closely aligned with horns structurally and in terms of timbre, though one should understand the range and impact of bass versus contrabass tubas and even consider the resurgence of the cimbasso as a true contrabass voice in the trombone section.
@@walfredswanson And what about the Alto Trombone? It seems to be all but forgotten, never in scores outside of like the occasional trombone solo and even then, rare even in solos. I understand that the tenor trombone can get up into the trumpet range, but that doesn't mean that it's best for getting up that high or even that it is appropriate. Alto Trombone seems much more appropriate for those high, trumpet range passages, while Tenor Trombone seems much more appropriate for those big, but soft bass chords. And yet, it's almost completely obsolete in Classical Music, even in trombone solos, which just doesn't seem fair.
I think you undersell the capability of projection for a horn... It really isn't too difficult to "shast" and force a lot of air through the instrument... This creates a very broad, brassy, and loud sound which can be heard over even a whole string section. This type of playing is rarely appropriate for early romantic/classical music, but definitely has its place in passages of Mahler, Wagner, Bruckner, and even Tchaikovsky or Ravel (as well as of course in film music). Nevertheless, this video is really helpful and I'm very grateful for it!!
I'm married to a hornist. No underselling happening here. And I also am deflating somewhat the notion that horns always have to double up in a chord alongside the heavy brass. That is (an exaggeration of) Rimsky-Korsakov's dictum, not mine.
I actually like to use doublings, if not writing too low or too high, where horns 1 + 3 are doubled by trombone 1 and horns 2 + 4 are doubled by trombone 2 for a more blended tone. It gives the horns a bit more projection and the whole brass section smoother, crisper tone to my ears.
This is perfect timing! I was just about the start writing the brass for my composition! Brass kinda scares me a bit, since the VST's I use arent the best - I havent written for them that much...but this is a real treat! Thank you!
REALLY enjoyed the mock playing of those CHORDS! The 21st Century Edition of Rimsky-Korsakov's Treatise should add recordings of all his examples! Can you just imagine the exorbitant cost of that! :)
I know that feeling. I was trying to track down every Rimsky-Korsakov recording I could find at one point. I wish someone would put the examples on RUclips in some coherent fashion
I for one, do not think that trumpets playing in chords = horns have to double each other in unison. The highest notes in my brass chords may be the trumpet in some cases and the horn in others. But I always do a chorale harmonization type of thing with the horns or at minimum, octaves, because I think it makes it sound more full, more harmonically rich. Even if the tone of it gets overwhelmed by the trumpets, having them doubled in unison just is not the same, just isn't as harmonically rich as I like. I like having the horns form their own chords as well as make sense with the other brass in terms of register and the harmonic series. Similar thing goes for the trio of trombones that are in the orchestra, it's why in the past, I've separated the trombones into an alto, tenor, and bass staff.
There aren't always the numbers to do it, but I've found that if each group of like instruments sounds full and complete on its own, the stack of them is unlikely to have any holes. If the trumpets play all three chord tones, and the horns play all three chord tones, and the trombones play all three chord tones, it's not worth worrying too much about who is doubling whom. Any balance problems then are simplified to "I need more horn chord" or "I need less trumpet chord". The down side is that there aren't that many ways to do this, so it sort of puts you in a rut if you're relying on full chords in each section to save you from yourself.
I gotta say, it's really nice finally having some updated info on brass dynamics and balance, especially considering the modern advances in the brass instruments. That being said, I personally still get squeamish whenever I see a score (following the utilization of piston and rotary valves) has 10 brass parts and only the usual 8 woodwinds 😕 I read in an article regarding the scoring of brass in a composition competition, the competing composers really misjudged the weight of the brass in relation to the rest of the orchestra, and that this was the number 1 problem for most, if not all, the scores. Some good examples of this kind of brass abuse can be found watching the Shen Yun Symphony recordings (disregarding their dubious associations...), among other orchestration problems.
i guess that as long as it is on good register most of the instruments can balance each other . More than this: Wagner does not balance trombones and singers on the best parts of Valkyrien. Source: me hearing it live at the Salzburg Festival. If you’re learning do not hesitate about hearing huge ensembles live, gonna learn by osmosis
The conical vs cylindrical bore difference is more about overtones than "projection" and cylindrical brass instruments (hn, trpt, trb) have more higher overtones than the conical brass instruments (traditional British brass band instruments, including the tuba) and the result is warmer, rounder tones from the conical instruments.
Projection is a real thing. The construction of some instruments spread the sound more than others which are highly directional. The qualities of the different bore designs do play a role in the way that the sounds inhabit a room, not to mention the qualities of timbre. As to overtones, I've already supplied a couple of extensive chapters in 100 MORE Orchestration Tips which spectrographically illustrate the difference in overtones between not just horns and heavy brass, but also the overtones of stopped horns and muted heavy brass. Horns are technically conical brass, not cylindrical, and have a timbre that's more related to band horns (saxhorn-based instruments like baritone and alto horns etc.).
@@OrchestrationOnline Aww too bad... I'm sure that it will happen someday soon - but until then i'll probably purchase the e-book soon! :) I can always print it anyway!
This is only concerned with open brass instruments. All of them have a range of mutes which can influence their colour, volume and power of projection. This is widely done in jazz circles but many classical music composers have not delved much into this, except for the horrible straight mute. On another point, I wonder why brass sections in orchestras so often sound cold and clinical as opposed to the warm sound that you get in jazz writing, which, you may have guessed is my field.
I have additional extensive resources on the timbral qualities of muted brass, including spectrographic comparisons between the instruments on a variety of mutes (straight, bucket, open vs. closed cup, Harmon with stem in different positions and out, and plunger). These tips are shared in 100 MORE Orchestration Tips. All the same, that is not the context of this tip. Developing orchestrators may build from this fundamental information adding mutes and other elements. Adding all that info here would have made this tip quite long.
"Group of strings" I thought the rule was one desk to each woodwind? I think by that math you'd need 28 strings for a classical-size orchestra and 60 for a modern symphony orchestra, which seems much more reasonable.
@@OrchestrationOnline Loving the books! If you take requests, I'd love an episode about number of players per string section! It's seems so hard to balance orchestrationally as well as financially!
Nikolai Andreevich does not compare the balance in the same way as you said. He's writing: "in piano every part of strings should be considered equal to one woodwind, e.g. one flute, one oboe, clarinet or bassoon (Viоlini I = 1 Flauto, etc.); in forte - each of the strings part should be considered an equal to TWO woodwinds, e.g. two flutes or clarinet and oboe, etc. (Violini I = 2 Flauti = 1 Ooe + 1 Clar.)"
I am quoting directly off of the page shown on the screen, and I highlight the sentence, from which all can see what I mean. What you see on the screen is from the English translation of Principles of Orchestration. AND I have a caution under the page: "Admittedly there are different balances implied at different dynamic levels." The point of these quotes is not to attack Rimsky-Korsakov, but to show that in a cumulative sense, the math can be arbitrary.
@@KholopovIgor If you watch the entire video, you see that I specifically point out the quotes that you mention, acknowledging in passing that Rimsky-Korsakov is not putting everything at one level.
@@KholopovIgor I completely understand. And I'm not saying that what you're pointing out is wrong - but what I am saying is that I point those things out as well, and add a note cautioning that Rimsky-Korsakov isn't saying all proportions are constant at the same dynamic.
As a brass player, it's refreshing to see someone talking about the brass section in a way that isn't "trombones will always blast over the strings all the time." Yah balance can be something to worry about, but brass can also match woodwinds and strings at low dynamics (the second movement of holst's second suite in F for band is a great example of this)
yeh i guess as long as it is on good register most of the instruments can balance each other . More than this: Wagner does not balance trombones and singers on the best parts of Valkyrien
As a brass player and composer, I'm glad he's also breaking the misconception that brass cannot be soft. I had to compose for an odd combination of Instruments for a caroling gig consisting a piccolo, an Alto sax, and a Trombone to accompany the singers--and I managed to make it work. It's not just the instrument operating itself, there is also a human operating it and adjusting the volume to blend, and as much as I love writing big blasty lines for brass, one ought not forget the powerful potential of soft brass lines especially chorale type of lines? *Chef's kiss*
In his book, Koechlin goes even a step further. He says that at the lowest dynamics, brass tend to blend better with strings than winds would.
A reliable source explained once that Eugene Ormandy used to add trombone parts to scores to reinforce the underlying harmonic structure. The trombones played at mezzo piano or forte with bells pointed downward rather than out. This had the effect of mellowing the sound as it reflected (as with backward facing horns and upward tuba) and blended with strings, giving that “golden" string sound for which the Philadelphia Orchestra was known. Also, often overlooked by orchestrators is that the tuba is much more closely aligned with horns structurally and in terms of timbre, though one should understand the range and impact of bass versus contrabass tubas and even consider the resurgence of the cimbasso as a true contrabass voice in the trombone section.
@@walfredswanson And what about the Alto Trombone? It seems to be all but forgotten, never in scores outside of like the occasional trombone solo and even then, rare even in solos. I understand that the tenor trombone can get up into the trumpet range, but that doesn't mean that it's best for getting up that high or even that it is appropriate. Alto Trombone seems much more appropriate for those high, trumpet range passages, while Tenor Trombone seems much more appropriate for those big, but soft bass chords. And yet, it's almost completely obsolete in Classical Music, even in trombone solos, which just doesn't seem fair.
No matter how much I *think* I know about orchestration, these tips always remind me how much there is to learn.
I think you undersell the capability of projection for a horn... It really isn't too difficult to "shast" and force a lot of air through the instrument... This creates a very broad, brassy, and loud sound which can be heard over even a whole string section. This type of playing is rarely appropriate for early romantic/classical music, but definitely has its place in passages of Mahler, Wagner, Bruckner, and even Tchaikovsky or Ravel (as well as of course in film music). Nevertheless, this video is really helpful and I'm very grateful for it!!
I'm married to a hornist. No underselling happening here. And I also am deflating somewhat the notion that horns always have to double up in a chord alongside the heavy brass. That is (an exaggeration of) Rimsky-Korsakov's dictum, not mine.
Thanks for your generosity Thomas!
I actually like to use doublings, if not writing too low or too high, where horns 1 + 3 are doubled by trombone 1 and horns 2 + 4 are doubled by trombone 2 for a more blended tone. It gives the horns a bit more projection and the whole brass section smoother, crisper tone to my ears.
There are a lot of great combinations.
This is perfect timing! I was just about the start writing the brass for my composition! Brass kinda scares me a bit, since the VST's I use arent the best - I havent written for them that much...but this is a real treat! Thank you!
Thank you! Finally ordered both of the books!
Great to hear it Justus!
These are the upgrade that worth...!! Thank you mr. Goss
REALLY enjoyed the mock playing of those CHORDS! The 21st Century Edition of Rimsky-Korsakov's Treatise should add recordings of all his examples! Can you just imagine the exorbitant cost of that! :)
I know that feeling. I was trying to track down every Rimsky-Korsakov recording I could find at one point. I wish someone would put the examples on RUclips in some coherent fashion
It'd be really nice to know how to effectively write a brass-line in different textures, especially in a polyphonic texture.
Orchestral brass (concert): 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 2 trombones, 1 bass trombone, 1 tuba
Orchestral brass (session): 6 horns, 4 trumpets, 3 trombones, 1 bass trombone, 2 tubas
I for one, do not think that trumpets playing in chords = horns have to double each other in unison. The highest notes in my brass chords may be the trumpet in some cases and the horn in others. But I always do a chorale harmonization type of thing with the horns or at minimum, octaves, because I think it makes it sound more full, more harmonically rich. Even if the tone of it gets overwhelmed by the trumpets, having them doubled in unison just is not the same, just isn't as harmonically rich as I like. I like having the horns form their own chords as well as make sense with the other brass in terms of register and the harmonic series. Similar thing goes for the trio of trombones that are in the orchestra, it's why in the past, I've separated the trombones into an alto, tenor, and bass staff.
There aren't always the numbers to do it, but I've found that if each group of like instruments sounds full and complete on its own, the stack of them is unlikely to have any holes. If the trumpets play all three chord tones, and the horns play all three chord tones, and the trombones play all three chord tones, it's not worth worrying too much about who is doubling whom. Any balance problems then are simplified to "I need more horn chord" or "I need less trumpet chord". The down side is that there aren't that many ways to do this, so it sort of puts you in a rut if you're relying on full chords in each section to save you from yourself.
this was great
Thanks!
I gotta say, it's really nice finally having some updated info on brass dynamics and balance, especially considering the modern advances in the brass instruments. That being said, I personally still get squeamish whenever I see a score (following the utilization of piston and rotary valves) has 10 brass parts and only the usual 8 woodwinds 😕
I read in an article regarding the scoring of brass in a composition competition, the competing composers really misjudged the weight of the brass in relation to the rest of the orchestra, and that this was the number 1 problem for most, if not all, the scores.
Some good examples of this kind of brass abuse can be found watching the Shen Yun Symphony recordings (disregarding their dubious associations...), among other orchestration problems.
i guess that as long as it is on good register most of the instruments can balance each other . More than this: Wagner does not balance trombones and singers on the best parts of Valkyrien. Source: me hearing it live at the Salzburg Festival. If you’re learning do not hesitate about hearing huge ensembles live, gonna learn by osmosis
Hey algorithm, this is a good video!
Did I do it right?
10:49 ive always felt this ending was overdone. the hold out chord is maybe okay...
The conical vs cylindrical bore difference is more about overtones than "projection" and cylindrical brass instruments (hn, trpt, trb) have more higher overtones than the conical brass instruments (traditional British brass band instruments, including the tuba) and the result is warmer, rounder tones from the conical instruments.
Projection is a real thing. The construction of some instruments spread the sound more than others which are highly directional. The qualities of the different bore designs do play a role in the way that the sounds inhabit a room, not to mention the qualities of timbre. As to overtones, I've already supplied a couple of extensive chapters in 100 MORE Orchestration Tips which spectrographically illustrate the difference in overtones between not just horns and heavy brass, but also the overtones of stopped horns and muted heavy brass. Horns are technically conical brass, not cylindrical, and have a timbre that's more related to band horns (saxhorn-based instruments like baritone and alto horns etc.).
I would have liked to get the book but it is not colorblind friendly.
Very few diagrams depend purely on colouration in order to illustrate a point. In all, perhaps 3-4 diagrams out of hundreds of others.
Thomas, are your e-books Kindle compatible? I'll be buying them regardless.
Hi Ethan! Unfortunately, the format of the books don't work on Kindle, but they are brilliant for computer pads and laptops.
Yay!
Can I purchase the book as e-book?
It is only available as an e-book, in PDF format. Click through on the link in the information for details.
@@OrchestrationOnline Any plans to release a physical version?
@@laurant4282 Not in the near future.
@@OrchestrationOnline Aww too bad... I'm sure that it will happen someday soon - but until then i'll probably purchase the e-book soon! :) I can always print it anyway!
@@laurant4282 Many readers have. You're welcome to do the same if the medium is more useful to you.
This is only concerned with open brass instruments. All of them have a range of mutes which can influence their colour, volume and power of projection. This is widely done in jazz circles but many classical music composers have not delved much into this, except for the horrible straight mute. On another point, I wonder why brass sections in orchestras so often sound cold and clinical as opposed to the warm sound that you get in jazz writing, which, you may have guessed is my field.
I have additional extensive resources on the timbral qualities of muted brass, including spectrographic comparisons between the instruments on a variety of mutes (straight, bucket, open vs. closed cup, Harmon with stem in different positions and out, and plunger). These tips are shared in 100 MORE Orchestration Tips. All the same, that is not the context of this tip. Developing orchestrators may build from this fundamental information adding mutes and other elements. Adding all that info here would have made this tip quite long.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thanks for letting me know. Good video, anyway.
Yeah, I'm wondering what the aliens score is doing on the piano as well. Or are you referring to something else?
mwahahaha....
That's an A-firmative.
@@OrchestrationOnline Oh thomas, you and your secrets lol. Whatever it's going to be, it'll be good.
"Group of strings" I thought the rule was one desk to each woodwind? I think by that math you'd need 28 strings for a classical-size orchestra and 60 for a modern symphony orchestra, which seems much more reasonable.
Read the text on the screen. Rimsky-Korsakov is saying 1 flute = 1 string group, i.e. the first violins.
@@OrchestrationOnline Loving the books! If you take requests, I'd love an episode about number of players per string section! It's seems so hard to balance orchestrationally as well as financially!
👏
I though this was made by ai for a secound
Geez I hope not. This was a huge effort by a living breathing orchestrator.
Nikolai Andreevich does not compare the balance in the same way as you said. He's writing: "in piano every part of strings should be considered equal to one woodwind, e.g. one flute, one oboe, clarinet or bassoon (Viоlini I = 1 Flauto, etc.); in forte - each of the strings part should be considered an equal to TWO woodwinds, e.g. two flutes or clarinet and oboe, etc. (Violini I = 2 Flauti = 1 Ooe + 1 Clar.)"
I am quoting directly off of the page shown on the screen, and I highlight the sentence, from which all can see what I mean. What you see on the screen is from the English translation of Principles of Orchestration. AND I have a caution under the page: "Admittedly there are different balances implied at different dynamic levels." The point of these quotes is not to attack Rimsky-Korsakov, but to show that in a cumulative sense, the math can be arbitrary.
@@OrchestrationOnlineIn the original text it is written as I quoted. Page 33: yadi.sk/i/KMhku_msblg6Tw
@@KholopovIgor If you watch the entire video, you see that I specifically point out the quotes that you mention, acknowledging in passing that Rimsky-Korsakov is not putting everything at one level.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'm not saying that you have a bad video, or you teach bad things, I'm saying that your quote from Rimsky-Korsakov is wrong.
@@KholopovIgor I completely understand. And I'm not saying that what you're pointing out is wrong - but what I am saying is that I point those things out as well, and add a note cautioning that Rimsky-Korsakov isn't saying all proportions are constant at the same dynamic.