Orchestration Question 13: 8va Do's & Don't's
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- A system for understanding which orchestral instruments use 8va and which don't - excerpted from "100 Orchestration Tips" and "100 MORE Orchestration Tips."
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As a [insert instrument] player, i [insert opinion]
This is my favourite comment on this whole video. It's absolutely unrefutable.
@@OrchestrationOnline thanks :D
as a violinist i wanna kid when we don’t have the melody 😭
@@OrchestrationOnline Actually some violinists and flutists prefer the octave sign because they might have bad eyesight and can't read ledger lines above the staff anymore.
@@RockStarOscarStern634 Many different musicians prefer different ways of doing things. The semipros to top pros that I've talked to hugely support the position in this video. If the people you work with want something different, of course that's fine.
As a pianist, one of the most annoying things is when composers use Ottava Alta in Bass Clef or Ottava Bassa in Treble Clef. The clef shift is much easier to process because we’re used to switching clefs quickly.
Yes, that's right.
@@scarbotheblacksheep9520 What’s in between 8va bass and 8vb treble:
*ALTO CLEF*
@@scarbotheblacksheep9520 I used alto clef in this:
ruclips.net/video/wqAma6DlWd4/видео.html
I disagree. I prefer treble in the right hand, bass in the left. I prefer 8va or 8vb; it can be used for both hands at the same time.
Didn’t even know people did that lol
I’m glad you got to the possibility that the score and part differs. That’s a big part of what could confuse a young composer, if he is only reading scores. Thankfully, most modern scores get precise so that it doesn’t get confusing in rehearsals. For really high notes, sometimes you should just get a piccolo or Eb clarinet. Or go rethink your life.
Low pedal tones on bass trombone (F1 and lower) will usually like an octave above shown in parenthesis just for the first instance.
1:07 Use Tenor Clef for the High Notes but if you go higher than that into Treble Clef do that Occasionally or if your piece is a Double Bass Concerto.
Nice video, clear and informative as always, and a nice little look at Sacrificial Dance (160?) at 8:45
As a tubist, I would like to call out your part writing tips. I'm tuba performance major in college, I'm an undergrad. I'm pretty good but nothing compared to even bad professionals. I have no trouble playing technical parts written above F1. Lower pedal notes below F1 make great pedal points. There are many examples of super low tuba lines in orchestral music such as fountians of Rome and many Prokofiev symphonies. If doubled with the bass trombone, basses, or bassoon, these parts will be heard.
Excuse me? Where do I say that you can't play technical parts above F1? Or that super low tuba lines are necessarily hard to play? The only point I was making here was that incredibly fast, complex, and intricately articulated scoring wasn't likely to be all that clear in the first place in the lowest register, so why bother using it as a justification for 8vb?There's no need to "call out" anything - you and I can just clarify any particular point, if I've stated things a little sloppily. If we can have a discussion in a charitable way, then everyone can improve from reading it. Otherwise, what's the point, eh?
On the guitar you do use it. You can go as high as E3 but the positions are the same an octave higher. The frets are smaller but the fingerings can be the same. You may use different fingerprints for the higher octave more intently but they still appear in the lower one. There's 6 different places you can play E1 so we're use to doing the same voicings in different positions. The guitar is very difficult. One question I have is how do you write down the same note being played on three different strings on the same instrument?
As a bassist I wouldn’t find 8va annoying. My understanding of notes is rooted from when I first started on bass guitar. Typically I can use finger shapes on bass to understand 8va parts, again another remnant from playing bass guitar.
Hahaha Cello go **squieks**
So, even violin concertos going up to the highest A on the piano (8 leger lines) wouldn't be ridiculous to read?
Well, that's a completely different context. A concerto solo part will be studied and memorised by the soloist like an actor's part in a movie or play. A part for a regular section member will rarely go that high, and if it does it usually will be artificial harmonics that are scored down 2 octaves anyway.
Yeah as a violinist I rarely see 8va in solo parts except for rediculously high passages, but in orchestral music I actually prefer 8va but only past like 5 or 6 ledger lines otherwise it's pretty annoying to read
Nothing, absolutely nothing is worse than transposing woodwind parts written in concert pitch. The absolute worst is English horn in alto clef (thanks Prokofiev)
excuse me did u just assume every harpists gender?
No. No he didn't. He declared a hypothetical harpist's gender and a few idiots decided to whine about it and make it something it's not.
English teachers: "It is unacceptable to use textspeak or other similar abbreviations in any serious academic writing"
Composers: *Laughs in 8va, 8vb, 15ma, and 15mb*
Me, a drummer and guitarist: *Laughs in here it gets louder, that note is a D# and here's where you play the first note*
Yeah, I definitely use 8va in my writing. For any instrument. I think clefs are generally obsolete at this point.
InventorZahran 327 - does 15 mean “2 octaves?”
@@thecreativegeek7886 Yes, that's what it means.
@@thecreativegeek7886 Yes.
As a professional flutist I suppose I have become use to seeing 8va over the years and my brain doesn’t hesitate to take what I’m seeing and correct it with the appropriate fingering for the intended octave.
That being said, it does at times seem unnecessary to have everyday high register notes being written with 8va. Seeing it as it should be written also let’s me know the kind of air to prep the note with, and can help me bring the intensity for certain symphonies. When I see parts from Tchaikovsky or Shostakovich‘s symphonies I know he wrote the parts way up there because he wanted my part to be heard in that point in time.
The only time I’m completely okay with 8va is when I have pages of high consecutive fast notes. Then after a while the ledger lines can play tricks on the eyes.
As a harpist, I definitely appreciate 8va where it's needed. Ledger lines are annoying!
Same thing for me as a percussionist (although still in high school, so not the most experienced). I find it to be a struggle to decipher any more than 1 or 2 measure lines. Bringing it into the staff just makes it a lot easier to read. But that will probably improve with time.
as a pianist i sometimes even use 15va...
@@sebastianzaczek *15ma
Yes my bad, 15ma is right :D
The real takeaway here is that you don't have to notate the score and the parts the same way. Performers and conductors aren't reading the same way, so specialize your written parts to the instruments but keep the score easy to read at a glance.
My take on parts is: if it still uses leger lines _with_ an 8va, then it should get an 8va. I say this not as an orchestrator, but as a performer. I have difficulty distinguishing six leger lines from five on sight, so I'm quite likely to misread a flute's top octave D as a B, and will pencil the note heads in an octave lower to make it easier to read. Even the fifth leger line slows down my reactions. I understand the "paper to fingers" argument, but to me it breaks down when the notes become difficult to distinguish visually. As said, for me that's anything more than five leger lines. Obviously this does not apply if a clef change is more appropriate than an 8va.
When in doubt, be prepared to offer it both ways. Computers are really helpful for that sort of thing, so why commit to exactly one method? I know trombone players that never, ever want to see a tenor clef. Of those, some want an 8va and others want leger lines. I know trumpet players that want everything in concert pitch, so they can choose the instrument they think most suitable and worry about the transposition themselves. (Why not, it's how tuba players operate.)
A very very knowledgeable and Insightful comment, I seldom hit the like button. As a trombone player, I generally prefer ledger lines until I hit C5 in first position, at and above that I prefer 8va. However, I prefer both ledger lines or 8va in either situation to tenor clef. Tenor clef is great to know in the case of learning transposing B flat treble clef parts, but is not practical. And Alto clef is 1 note away from being 8va that 8va is actually more efficient to the purpose AND it's obviously easier to understand 8va than what is effectively 7va. But everybody does have their preferences. And 8va is great for conserving the space on the score as stated at 8:40 . My preference just so happens to use 8va when the 8va has its first ledger line which is what you stated in your comment. I pretty much agree with everything your comment says.
I've noticed some confusion arising at 1:45 concerning my indication of G above the double bass staff as being "G3" instead of "G4." That is because double bass players transpose down an octave. The G above the staff that they read sounds an octave lower in concert pitch.
OrchestrationOnline: I find that when it comes to saxophones that reach altissimo, especially in concerti and solos that the saxophonist can easily read 8va. Simply anything above the staff is altissimo, and provides visual assurance that the note does in fact reach altissimo for both the player and the composer. My favorite example is Claude T Smiths Fantasia. This especially is true when you reach the outer limits of altissimo, which when included can give the saxophone a 3.5-4 octave range.
@Michael Persico My Patreon supporters have no problem with this. For you, it's free. Life is way too short focus to be worrying about things like this. Everyone understands what I mean. Now back to work on our careers.
Tuba player here, I'm not sure if you are using official terms or not for what the tubas pedal range is, but usually since we all start on BBb tubas we call notes lower than E1 pedals. Also although this range is often neglected by composers, tubas can go well below Bb0 and those notes and a few above Bb0 all should use 8ba.
@@TheDbird90 However 8vb could be useful for a 5 String Cello if you're playing Violin Concertos on it.
@@OrchestrationOnline instead if writing Double Bass Concertos I would simply arrange Violin Concertos for Double Bass. 15vb for a Double Bass would work if you have a 5 String Double Bass tuned in Fifths (C1, G1, D2, A2, E3 via Pirastro Obligato Fifths tuning Strings plus High E Solo).
I've played some Bass Trombone music that goes down to pedals, and when that happens it's okay to use 8vb/8ba because they're played with the exact same slide positions as the notes an octave higher. That also applies to tuba pedals, or pedals on and brass instrument.
I would say 8vas/8vbs are never hard to play on trombone
Idont Know Eh, don’t use 8va if you’re writing for trombone in an orchestra, just use tenor
i play tuba and to be honest i really don't appreciate the 8vb just because i'm used to reading the ledger lines. Also going down to that range is not the the same fingering usually you add the 4th or 5th valve to the valve combination and sometimes you have to add more because of how sharp the note will sound because of how low it is.
@@calvinpederson5665 Yeah, Tuba has different fingerings for lower stuff so it makes sense to not use 8vb, but Bass Trombone doesn't use different positions so it makes sense to use 8vb.
I could see both 8va and 8vb being usefull when writing for EWI though, considering the fingerings are the same.
Im confused on 7:50, as a flute player I can very well play every note from octave 2 an octave higher with change in blow speed and no change in fingering, barring b natural and C. (This is unconventional but still doable)
An 8va due cause some confusion but it isn't as difficult as you say it to be.
It's not about what's doable - it's about what's necessary. Most concert flute players are telling me that 8va isn't necessary and that it's occasionally confusing if not annoying. Some of my points have a little dramatic license for clarity.
@@OrchestrationOnline As a beginner flute player, I welcomed 8va, since I was not very proficient at reading ledger lines above the staff. Now that my sight reading is much better, I find no reason for 8va. I can just as easily have read the notes written in the correct octave.
It's not difficult at all. I also play flute, and we see 8va all the time. This idea that somehow professional musicians can parse out complicated rhythms but get stymied by 8va is...a bit condescending. Since I've learned what 8va is, I've never mistakenly played down an octave, and I don't know any flute players who have ever struggled with this. It's a solution looking for a problem.
as a classical double bassist, I respectfully disagree with this. I know that myself and many of my double bass colleagues prefer octave octave ups rather reading a different clef. Additionally, if you write high for a double bass and don’t want to use the octave up, simply skip tenor clef and go directly to treble clef.
Pretty much very double bass soloist I've ever worked with reads tenor clef like it was nothing. It shows up in several key scores, and anyone wanting a job with a major orchestra had better be able to read it. There are almost zero 8va parts in the standard concert repertoire for bass - but plenty in treble clef.
I am in agreement with Evan here. When I see tenor clef it makes me think 1950s to 1970s. There has been a shift in double bass education. Tenor clef is a bit of a hassle. I cut my teeth on a Italian Edition of the Bottesini Concerto in B minor that was bass clef 8va. Also, these days a lot of bass players are reading at least the first two Bach Cello Suites from the original cello editions and read it 8va. Other than that, a lot of modern editions of classical solo pieces are written in treble clef. As for orchestrating in that range, Ricard Strauss and Ginastera didn't have qualms with writing around e sounding-pitch at the bottom of the treble clef. Now, double bass is never going to cut up there like a cello, but it's going to have soul.
Heck no, as a tenor, I can tell you not many amateur tenors can read tenor clefs.. They even have trouble with bass clefs, instead of soprano clefs sung an octave lower.
Oh, you have word "concert" there. So you're describing the sounding note, not written. That wasn't immediately clear to me. You're OK.
Paul Nahay 😂
As a flute player, I don’t care either way, as my mind will see the 8va and automatically go to the higher fingerings, with nothing but a very slight pause.
As a violinist, 8va's actually annoy me. They are harder to read for me than the actual notes.
As a violinist, I feel precisely the opposite way. In fact, 8va is very common in orchestral play, and I strongly prefer that way over counting endless overlines, especially when sight-reading.
As a flutist its hella helpful.
@@YouennF What orchestra do you play with?
@@OrchestrationOnline I never played professionally in an orchestra, (well, not full time anyway- I've been hired to play in many orchestras for short term gigs, and I've played long-term with many volunteer and student orchestras) but as a violinist when it gets to more than 4 or 5 ledger lines above staff I prefer reading 8va as well, esp. when sight reading, and esp. with giant leaps- like if you're at, say the "G" at the top of the staff or "A" with one ledger line, and suddenly it leaps to some note with like 9 ledger lines, then, let's say it jumps back and forth between those registers- my brain goes- "WTF?!!!" I'd rather see the 8va so I can wrap my head around the notes/intervals and plan out the fingering before I play it.
If the motion is staying mostly step-wise or within a 5th or so I can see preferring not using the 8va. But I stopped training in violin in late teens/early twenties and switched to composition. So perhaps if I'd stayed on the violin track I'd be singing a different tune today. Who knows. But then, I'd also likely not be watching this video.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'd like to thank you for these videos. It's very difficult to get orchestras to read ones music at all, let alone play it enough to let one experiment, change things and try again so one can learn the intricacies of the craft. I wish this channel existed when I was a student and writing for orchestra. It might have saved me some embarrassing and even humiliating moments.
Marching music for flute is often written with 8va. Composers: don’t do this! Also, for flutists, please stop asking us for stratospheric high notes. Just use the damn piccolo
you are right about the marching band music
I second this! I learned flute several years into my composing career just to diversify my skill set. I quickly abandoned trying to write high notes for flute unless I had a very good reason to! :D
You won't be able to hear the flutes if they aren't playing in at least third octave.
Same for clarinets. I think composer insists to write those note for woodwinds in order to be heard over the brasses. Remember marching band acoustics (is that even a thing?) are very different from a concert hall.
Thank you for noting the difference between 8va in the score and 8va in the parts. As you say, in a score every tiny bit of space matters, and a conductor needs to be able to read multiple parts at a glance. But especially for people using modern composer software, it's all too easy to neglect to remove the 8va when you transition from full score to individual parts
@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ
You can also tune a Double Bass in Fifths (by using Strings designed for that tuning) & Fifths tuning for Double Bass is the same as a Cello but down an Octave (plus a High E string for the 5 String Bass made by Pirastro as Obligato or Passione). The advantage of 5ths Tuning is that the intonation is much better & it also is great for playing repertoire that was originally not written for Double Bass such as Cello pieces down an Octave, & Violin & Viola pieces down 2 Octaves. There's no Doubt that 5ths Tuning treats the Double Bass like the rest of the string section making it just as equally lyrical.
So, in a situation where score space is an issue, would you recommend using 8va in the score but removing it in the parts?
‘Yes.’ answers the competent professional music copyist.
I disagree, though everyone has their OWN motives. As the composer, the CHOICE is mine, not the players. Please read my comment above.
score is for conductor, sometimes 8va may help them to know the actual harmonic relationship
I use 8va for Double Bass in my Song Covers because it's for a Harmonica player who is going under surgery.
I just discovered this video after my flute player on my arrangement played an octave lower than what I intended. Won't include octave markings next time.
I like the practice of British brass bands to write all instruments (except the bass trombone) in transposed treble clef, including the e-flat and b-flat tuba sections. But don't give those scores to people outside the brass band world, though... ;)
I also had one of those tried-to-be-helpful moments when scoring for orchestra in school. I put the trombone in tenor clef, because as I bassoonist I know how much easier that is to read than a bunch of ledger lines. (Not to mention 8va, which is a nuisance due to making a mess of which notes are on the lines and which are between them.) But the trombone player that ended up playing the part came from the jazz department and couldn't read it, so I had to quickly write a new part. I guess the moral of my story is to know your player, and not make assumptions based on your own preferences.
The info in the video is solid. The only thing I want to add (besides the above asides) is that extra care is needed when writing for inexperienced musicians. A pro bassoonist will thank you for switching to tenor clef, but I know quite decent amateur players who prefer three ledger lines to a clef change, because they're still not used to it. (I make sure my bassoon students learn tenor clef, though.) If in doubt, ask a player (if you're writing for pros) or a teacher.
Honestly, they should all use it. It’s so much simpler than learning another clef or excessive ledger lines. I don’t care about customs and traditions.
Having played clarinet, bassoon and guitar (in addition to composing) I always found 8va easier.
Be very careful before you score it for a major orchestra.
It’s a very personal thing
Honestly, I only like seeing 8va on piano
Reading ledger lines for me is almost second nature
As a violinist, I actually prefer 8va in any note or passage whose average pitch is higher than an A6; I don't personally think in terms of how many ledger lines determines where to place the fingers, and I'm not familiar with any others that do, and thus see no problem with 8va. Where do you think our disconnect might be?
I cannot explain why your experience is different from the very many violinists I've met who think differently. I can only say what their preference is. Also my own preference as an ex-violinist and violist, and occasional mandolinist. But the thing to remember here is that these tips are more about "druthers" than absolute rules. Of course there are always exceptions from piece to piece and player to player.
Why not use 8va for Piccolo? The 8va sign above the flute part means to switch to piccolo.
As a flutist, I totally second the idea that 8va tends to interfere with ingrained fingerings, but with the caveat that in something like Shostakovich or another contemporary composer with lots of notes from C7 on up in a row, then 8va is okay (even from A6 if it jumps around a lot). Of course, that's my opinion, but in almost every case, 8va is unnecessary.
PS. Love the Prokofiev 5!
Speaking as another flutist: I agree that ledger lines are okay for passages that hang out above high A for a while, but it's also true that I usually find such passages rather nasty and would prefer not to be given them in the first place. So the idea that if the notation seems absurd without ledger lines, then maybe the orchestration should be reconsidered still applies!
A pet interest of mine is the treble flute in G. I think it would be perfect for most high C fest type passages. The audition excerpt taken from the finale of Prokofiev's Classical Symphony would become easy, while retaining the degree of projection and the appropriate timbre that piccolo wouldn't.
Alex Kindel
Personally, I love playing up there in intense pieces where there's a good reason to be in the stratosphere (Prokofiev, Shostakovich). But only for a short amount of time. Maybe not in the Classical symphony excerpts or in the 1st movement of his Sonata, but definitely in this (Symphony no. 5) and Alexander Nevsky and in the 4th movement of the sonata, I think Prokofiev is going for the strained sound of the flute's highest notes, and I like that force sometimes. Does the G treble flute sound as difficult up high?
I haven't played a top-notch treble flute, but the one I did try - a Guo brand one - was pretty nearly like taking the sound and response of a C flute and transposing it up a fifth. Paying concert D7 - written G6 - was approximately like playing a concert G6 on a C flute.
Yeah, ledger lines can be pretty annoying. I have this one part, 1st flute on Pathfinder of Panama by Sousa, where literally the entire part has an 8va marking over it, sometimes crossing through dynamics and notes ...
Treble flute in G is also good for playing the really high parts typical of charanga music, especially for a multi-instrumentalist who might only be moderately competent on flute, as might be the case in a pit orchestra.
Although not a common orchestral instrument, saxophones do have an altissimo range and professional players can reasonably be expected to have at least an octave above the standard range on tenor or alto. I'll write such parts as an 8va if it makes sense, and the crossover point is F above (no 8va)/G above (8va, it's altissimo). F♯ is generally not written as 8va as it is generally considered part of the standard range now, even on instruments where it has to be produced as altissimo due to the lack of a high F♯ key.
I personally find it difficult to read more than five leger lines above or four below the staff, regardless of the instrument in question. I've been known to pencil in small note heads an octave up or down to make the part easier to read. But then, I'm not reading straight from the ink to the fingers, because I'm not hyper-specialized to any one instrument. There is a layer of abstraction between the written and the physical, so 8vas don't bother me.
As a tubist, sometimes I will take the music an octave down even when the 8va is not present. We tubists love pedal notes down there.
As an amateur violin player, I actually disagree about avoiding 8va in violin scores. Granted, they are confusing when used in scales, but if an entire section is very high, it is much easier to read with 8va. For me, there is not direct connection between printed notes and fingers but rather between the notes and the sounds. The high positions need some practice anyway, and this is much easier if you don't have to count ledger lines all the time. Note that this may be different for a professional violinist.
Pretty much every pro violinist I've discussed this with disagrees, but I appreciate your perspective.
It is probably a matter of convention. These days, with some practice, I don't mind ledger lines as much as I used to. Now my pet peeve is uneven spacing of ledger lines, including ledger line spacing that is different from staff line spacing, which is unfortunately quite common in handwritten scores. In that case, I would always prefer 8va notation.
Sören Schulze It's not a matter of convention but a matter of simplicity. Professional violinists have spent so many thousands of hours reading ledger lines and practicing higher positions that it's as second nature as reading in the staff for other instruments. 8va adds a whole element of transposition to reading the music. It also creates a very sudden, jarring spacial shift in note reading. Suddenly everything is higher than it looks on the page, and when it ends, suddenly everything is lower than you're forcing yourself to read. It's disorienting and takes much more processing power and detracts from reaction time, not to mention overriding the subconscious reading of tonal and hand frame requirements of the notes on the page.
You say you're an amateur violinist, so you're probably playing at home where you can work out these things over time in practicing. There is no shame or less in that. Good for you at committing to an instrument and working to progress. 💜 Pros, however, have to sightread more advanced music with much fewer run-throughs and have to balance far more music in much shorter periods of time. They don't have 6+ months to perfect a very small range of pieces, and non-ideal notation doesn't make life easier.
Nah, I’m a violinist and 8va really confuses me. It’s much easier to read the ledger lines. Most violinist agree with me and this video. You are an exception
@@longliveclassicmusicBut then professionals should be able to do both, so this is really not much of an issue.
As a flutist, I rarely find 8va overly irritating or troublesome, but often simply unnecessary, because we can easily navigate ledger lines for our entire range. There are definitely parts I have read where just a few bars earlier a G6 was written in ledger lines, but suddenly a passage in a similar range is written with 8va - it just looks ridiculous. However, I admit that occasionally we do lose count of the number or ledgers while playing way up there, and especially with large leaps I have under or overestimated the pitch. In those cases (like the G6-D7) range, I would actually appreciate 8va.
As a percussionist I would much rather see 8va or 8vb than read ledger lines in either direction for the exact reason you mention. Like piano, the sticking and note locations are not going to change per the octave. Just tell me to play on the 5th octave of the marimba or the 1st octave of the xylo and write in the staff, please. There is no benefit to showing me more than 2 or 3 ledger lines in any direction.
Ravel's piano concerto for the left hand contains a bass part with 8va for a harmonic at the 30th rehearsal mark, is it coincidence that that page is one of my favorite moments from the piece?
As a classical bassist, we generally use 8vb treble clef for high parts. We are not like cellists and do not use tenor. The reason we use 8vb treble is because the bass is a transposing instrument. We transpose an octave down so we also play in 8vb bass clef. Please never use tenor clef for basses. Most of us find that confusing as our high solo parts are normally in treble.
I've seen tenor clef in a few concert bass parts, usually concertos. As to 8vb treble clef, that is taken as a given in this video, that all clefs sound down an octave. :-)
I not questioning the existence of tenor clef in solo or orchestral playing, rather it's usefulness. For example, I two copies of Edouard Nanny's "Dragonetti" concerto published by two different publishers.. One uses tenor, treble, and bass clef while the other only uses treble and bass. In the first publication it often changes between the three clefs quickly which can be confusing. I see you have covered the double bass often and have even composed an entire concerto for bass, the bass community needs more people like you, but most bassists find tenor, like 8va, disruptive to our finger patterns because we are used to reading ledger lines all the way up to thumb position G. Anyways, I think this is a great video and it will hopefully stop some of tomorrow's composers from giving us an necessary helping hand.
Beautifully put, especially that last sentence. I find that many attempts to be helpful (without checking first) have led to numerous unhelpful practices by composers. In all fairness, a lot of my tips are really just "druthers" rather than out-and-out rules, as I've picked them up from players over the years. Thanks so much for your kind words.
Could you do a video on writing harmonics for string instruments? Possible sub-topics: notation, playability, tone quality.
That joke at 2:58 is one of your best! You had me laughing out loud!
what joke?
As a multi-instrumentalist, I find that the use of 8va or 8vb is very situational, and sometimes I prefer ledger lines and sometimes I prefer 8va or 8vb, even on the same instrument.
For woodwinds and brass, it’s almost always easier to play with ledger lines, and if the ledger lines make it harder to read, writing note names isn’t hard to do. I personally prefer 8va to tenor clef for low brass, but I can read up to an octave above middle c fine, and you really shouldn’t be writing that high for the most part.
For strings, it depends on what you’re doing. While you say in the video that it’s better to avoid 8va, I personally find it easier depending on the situation. I’ve barely played any bowed strings other than bass, and most of the time I personally find it easier to read 8va, yet if you’re writing that high for a bass, you might want to rethink it.
For guitar and electric bass, 8va is always easier for me to read. 8vb is never useful on guitar, as guitarists can read anywhere down to the bottom of the range of the instrument, even if it seems like too many ledger lines.
Really, though, just don’t use them if you don’t know for sure if it will help. Some people may prefer it, and some other people may find ledger lines to be a non-issue. People who struggle with ledger lines can just write the note names and be fine.
As a saxophonist (and for those who want to score for saxophone), written C7 is legible. If you want to use anything higher than that, you are getting into specialist altissimo range. But if you are going to score that high, please start and finish the octava at the start and ends of phrases, rather than throwing it on the odd note
So if we really want to be "helpful" without interfering with the performer's ability, can you put the number of ledger lines next to the note once it gets to like 6-7, when it's hard to count them in a hurry?
Don't worry about that, flutists read up to high C and D easily, and violinists should be able to read high E's with no problem. When it gets higher than that, you usually should be scoring the note as a touch-4 harmonic anyway, two octaves lower.
STOP USING TENOR CLEF FOR DOUBLE BASS!!! Seriously!!! We only need bass and treble clef. I HATE hearing people suggest tenor clef for bass. Just don't. Tenor clef for cello, bassoon, and trombone only.
Considering how the average concert section range ends at about written G4, it's pretty rare to see it at all - however, like it or not, tenor clef shows up in concerto parts, and bassists are going to have to be able to read it if they want good orchestra jobs.
I would be far more concerned to see an 8va double bass part from an orchestration student. Treble clef would be fine, and it also shows up in some concerto scoring.
Tubist often practice pieces an octave lower so the technique and reading should not be a problem. Tubas plays easily down to G0 and some plays down to E0, just don't have runs down there. Long and fat chords would love to have that deep bass!
When should I change clefs? It seems to me like there wouldn't be any one rule, like "past the fourth ledger line" because of parts that go above and below that. What's a general strategy to use to decide when to switch into another clef? I'm sure this might vary depending on the instrument. And when should you split a staff into two staves? I've seen it done with violin parts for some solo caprices, when the notes become a jumbled mess when you squeeze them onto one staff. It usually goes back to normal after the complex bit ends. And just for the sake of principle, what about parts for polyphonic instruments that utilize voices at the top and bottom of the instrument's range simultaneously? For piano, which is always written on two staves, this isn't an issue, but how do you know when it's the right choice to split a part into two staves for an instrument that usually only reads in one? For example, the lute, which has enough strings that it's possible to go far above and below the staff at the same time? Sorry about all these questions!
If you think I'm not the only one wondering this, you have my permission to condense my question for use in a video or in one of your books, if you like. But I have a feeling this isn't a very common issue.
Your last example was of a full score. Surely 8ve notation is preferable in that case and for also for conductor's scores....I would think that as long as the extracted part for flute was written correctly that's all that would matter...
Great video! you saved me some sour looks from string players in the near future...I had NO idea that 8ve writing practice was a no-no!
Glad to hear it. Always nice to know when advice is going to be put to good use. I do address the score-only approach to 8va if you need to save vertical space in a score. But then I show how some copyists needlessly transfer those marks into parts.
I’m about 6 years too late… but (as a bassist) we do basically use 8va Alta when reading the Bach cello suites (standard bass rep) or tuba parts (in concert band music) so it’s not super wrong but again we shouldn’t go that far up (except for the fact that I’d love to really far up but 🤷♂️)
@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ
In my case my Double Bass Concertos are actually Violin Concertos arranged for the Double Bass. I did that by taking a 5 String Double Bass, & tuned it in Fifths by restringing it with Pirastro Obligato Fifths Tuned Double Bass Strings plus an Obligato High E Solo String. Did you Know Red Mitchell tuned in Fifths? The fun thing about 5ths Tuning for Double Bass is that it allows any Bassist to play repertoire that was originally not written for Double Bass, therefore allowing them to make their own Double Bass Concertos that are really Double Bass transcriptions of Concertos originally written for other instruments.
OrchestrationOnline The 5 String Cello can play 8vb below Treble Clef if playing Violin pieces. The 5Bass can play 15vb:ruclips.net/video/LVQTlSJs9bQ/видео.html but arranging violin Concertos for double Bass is easy is you have a 5 String Double Bass tuned in Fifths than it can sound 15vb below what's written. Here's Catlin Rotaru playing Mozart's 5'th Violin Concerto on Double Bass.
Can't stand 8va as a violist, please just write it in treble clef
Kyle Krause If I ever see 8va, I play it in the non-8va octave because of spite. You can't realistically expect anyone to read what's effectively a different clef for an obscure part of your obscure piece just because it looked better in the writing software, I mean come on
(ps, also a violist)
Isn’t changing the clefs really easy for string players, like just moving it up a string or something?
Patrick Polcuch if you were to play treble clef notes on violin then switch to viola, that's when you would play a string higher
Patrick Polcuch if the new clef would "transpose up" by a fifth, this would indeed be reasonably easy, since we think in fifths more so than octaves. but once you go above the a(/e) string, you don't really have another fifth to go to. Ex-violinists can quite easily read treble clef from the high e and up in fifth position (if we must..) (and nvm those that have always played the viola for now), but that's the closest you're going to get to easy switching honestly. I mean learning a new clef=learning a new clef, just as it would for your most likely
Patrick - It's not that it's easy for us to move between clefs, but that for the most part we've learned different clefs as part of our practice. I'm a violist, and I prefer alto clef by far, but part of studying viola is learning how to play viola parts in treble as well. When you learn viola, you practice pieces in both treble and alto clef, and pieces that switch between. I've rarely encountered 8va in any viola part, orchestral, solo or otherwise. It's much more common to switch to treble clef when you have high notes and don't want to write in ledger lines, and switch back to alto when you're in the viola's regular range. In part, that's because it's easier for most composers to write in treble than alto, which sucks but it's something we've learned to deal with. 8va alto clef is unheard of, and if you're writing 8va treble clef for violas, consider writing it in as false harmonics instead because that's going to be a pain in the ass for most players. Or write it into the violin part instead.
Octave Symbols for Double Bass only work on mine cause it's special. Instead of writting Double Bass Concertos, why not take concertos originally written for other instruments and transcribe them for Double Bass. For example using a Fifths tuned 5 String Double Bass (C, G, D, A, E: soudning an Octave Lower for Cello pieces, sounding 2 Octaves lower for Violin and Viola pieces) I could do Paganini's Violin Concerto in D Major w/o having to write a new part cause the fingerings are the same.
Amateur clarinettist here. As someone who is just terrible at sight-reading, I would have trouble reading anything above written F6 (or concert pitch Eb6 on a standard Bb clari) - so more than three ledgers. Altissimo notes up to written F6 is relatively common in concert band, but I rarely see anything beyond that outside of solo parts, and I personally prefer transposing via 8va if I ever have to play such notes again.
As an organist, I'd note that 8va bassa signs are never used in organ scores, because the lowest note on the (modern) keyboards (both manual and pedal) is C two ledger lines below bass clef ("cello C") -- and when pitches lower than that are required, these are obtained through the use of octave-lower (or even two octaves lower) registers, the notation always remaining at eritten keyboard pitch, not sounding pitch. As to 8va alta, the highest note on the manuals is C three octaves above middle C. Since this is an octave below the highest octave of the piano, the use of 8va alta signs isn't common. In fact, much of our repertory was written for keyboards that didn't extend so high in range: in JS Bach's day, only two octaves above middle C was the highest note on the manuals -- and even Mendelssohn wrote within this range. Even now, many organ keyboards only go as far as two and a half octaves above middle C. As to the upper end of the pedal keyboard: the highest note is G above middle C, and reading the three ledger lines for this note in bass clef poses no problem for us -- there is never a shift to treble clef, or *shudder!* tenor clef. And again, not all pedalboards go that high: especially in Europe, many only go up to F, or even just D.
I have a 5 String Cello and anything written for Violin can be played on the 5 String Cello cause with a High E String the Cellist can simply play the Solo Violin part down an Octave, and for a 5Bass (5 String Double Bass tuned in Fifths an Octave below the 5 String Cello) the Solo Violin parts will sound 2 Octaves lower than written.
As a tubist I disagree, I far more prefer when orchestrators write 8vb for anything lower than A below the bass clef. Especially when it comes to to sight reading or reading technical passages leger lines cause much unneeded confusion. Tubist also actually practice etudes down an octave from the original register to improve our technical ability in the pedal register, so we're actually for more used to reading 8vb than leger lines
Also, that range of greatest technical ability is quite incorrect for the tuba, it is far more able than you think. You even used an excerpt where Prokofiev doubles the tuba with the strings in the register you call "profoundly heavy".
I disagree with the note position argument. If you need to use more than 4 extra lines to write down a note, in my experience you always see octava notation. Otherwise its just too hard to count the lines quickly. And I would strongly assume that violinists for example feel the same way, they would simply learn the highest notes in their octava notation and wont be confused anymore
LOL -- "Maybe you should start over instead of inventing new systems." Something I tell myself all the time :)
Every male harpist just clicked off this video thinking "sexist douche." Every female harpist should have done the same thing.
Flutist here... it's totally cool if you use 8va in my parts. The damn instrument should've been written an octave lower in the first place - you're never gonna hear the lowest octave over the orchestra anyways. It would be cool if notation was redesigned to be ergonomic, rather than designed for frickin Rain Man.
In the sense that the fundamental tones of the flute are played from Middle C up to C# in the staff, though, the treble range fits the flute pretty well. If you're fine with 8va, then great! Most concert flutists I've worked with would roll their eyes and ask me to reformat their parts if I gave them 8va in most situations. If there was a very complex, picky rhythm applied to a series of intricate notes between B6 and D7, then they might make an exception - or not. Keep in mind that a lot of my tips are "druthers." What would almost every flutist and violinist in my professional experience as an orchestrator prefer? No 8va.
As a flutist I love the 8va , i have no problem to read the right notes
“Prokofiev’s Fifth Symphony” ( I like the E. Ormandy recording better).
Please don't do it for violins unless it's ridiculously high (like off the fingerboard stuff). The first time I ever saw 8va in violin part I panicked (and I've been playing for almost 6 and a half years). We're used to ledger lines, just use those.
My professor, who was an amazing musician, (sadly, now gone) wrote a brilliant Sonata for Tuba and Piano. It's in the style of 20th century meets Romantic. Really fantastic. His name was Luis Pisciotta. If you're a Tubist, I highly recommend his piece. I believe it's published by "Sound Idea Publications". It was even performed in Carnegie Hall. Great video as always here!
I like it. Makes it easier for player to say "naw I ain't doin that." and play it in the normal/"correct" octave.
About double bass. we dont really use tenor clef anymore, most contemporary stuff uses treble instead.
Personally as a bassist, I hate tenor clef. I am currently studying a bit of Dragonetti's music, and he never uses it (jumps straight from bass clef to treble clef). I'm not sure about Basittini. How Dragonetti and I do the bass/treble transition is a bit different, however. Dragonetti seems to only use treble clef for the upper harmonics, which means you could get as many as 5 ledger lines in bass clef before switching.
I prefer to switch to treble clef as soon as I enter into thumb position (above the 1st harmonic). This keeps reading up to three ledger lines manageable on the bass end, and only two when playing the first harmonic on the A string in treble clef. In this instance, treble clef is then also a cue for me to switch to thumb position, and when to leave it. If a passage keeps climbing up to a A and back down to a D, reading it in bass clef just looks like you're stretching to reaching the A, then relaxing to come back down to the D. In thumb position, it is just dropping fingers where they should be floating above the strings anyway. An argument could be made for using tenor clef for thumb position and treble clef for the upper harmonics, but I personally really do like treble clef as soon as I enter into thumb position.
My favorite use of the contrabass section above written G4 might be the 3rd bar of rehearsal 20 in the finale of Mahler's 3rd. Unison with the first violins low on their G string, with the violas and cellos on D5 together above for a very forced, not to mention unusual sound.
Did you just assume the harpist's gender? Just kidding - excellent stuff as always! Guitarists (at least electric) aren't very fond of 8vas either.
as a female tubaist I am mad about that, and most harpist I know are male
Sorry to hear that, Hiroko. For what it's worth, in this video I didn't specify a gender for tuba players. As for harpists, I have had the amazing good fortune to work with several dozen professional harpists solo, chamber and in orchestras over the past couple decades. They've all been brilliant and almost every single one has been a women. I'm just being honest in acknowledging - and honouring - their gender. I also know quite a few female tuba players, especially in different band groups. But gender wasn't part of the phrasing of the sentences when I wrote the original text from which the first half of this script was adapted - whereas all my second halves for these tips are added later, and I can be more informal.
OrchestrationOnline How about recasting your words so they do not make gender assumptions about instrumentalists? That's better writing.
Actually, I pretty much do that already, which you would know if you watched my videos. Honestly, folks, making into this a big deal when I took one second out to acknowledge a lot of women musicians I've worked with seems like a waste of time.
All this gender whining in classical music turns my stomach. It produces nothing but conflict and unfair practices (A school in my country has banned "all male" concerts, meaning if the composers who composed the best work happen to be male then females need to be featured , meaning they're rewarded simply based on gender). I'm so tired of it. It's in every field and has done nothing this century but destroy. "Oh no, he called the harpist a she! That's terrible" No, it really is not. It's a load of pointless griping.
As a cellist, my biggest pet peeve in notation is when orchestrators write notes in treble clef below the middle staff line. That range could easily be written in tenor or even bass clef and is an unnecessary use of the clef that takes most cellists the longest to read.
I've noticed that in many cello parts, treble clef isn't really a thing unless using the altissimo register starting around C5. Other parts are more generous, taking into account some lower notes, so that the whole passage is easier to finger at sight. But yeah, your pet peeve is well-taken. It's similar to writing really low notes in tenor clef.
I have failed you Thomas, I have been mistaking this mistake for a LOOOOONG time. I do have one question though, when you are doing parts this makes sense, but would it be accurate to say that in a full score intended for the conductor or for score study, this would be acceptable since it is not intended for a player but for clarity of score reading?
Yeah, that's fine. I do mention that it's okay to use 8va in the full score to save vertical space - just don't mindlessly import that into the part like that copyist for the Rite of Spring did, haha!
What about alto clef I feel like that never gets talked about
Slurky Kirky because (almost) nobody cares about viola or alto trombone 😂
0:17 why is tenor trombone in alto clef lol
Algy Cuber bro we were playing carnival overture by Dvorak and it was written in alto clef for trombone 1 and 2
As a professional violinist I can say that 8ves are not a no to go with the violin... I would say after you reach 4 additional cuts, so at the fifth I prefer the 8ves sign. It's confusing if it's a scale and I don't like it in that case but for melodies or weird notes I would take as a rule of thumb to use the 8ve sign from the fifth additional cut
Hi there, do you mean "ledger lines" when you write "cuts?"
in this bass range chart, why is the treble clef part labeling the literal highest octave of the fingerboard with harmonics on arbitrary notes smh but yeah past that’s either pulling the string off to the side past the finger board or the rest of the harmonics up there, in orchestra that stuff is always welcome bass players love high stuff. And hey it can sound really cool to support the higher strings from within their sound or to have a whole string section unison tutti with a small octave spread high up, even a chorale texture where the range could get way up there it would sound sick it just wouldn’t be filling it’s bass role sure but hey that’s why we have tuba
Because it's an imperfect world, in which everyone illustrates things as best they can, gets it wrong, and then dies.
Thank you for another wonderful video Thomas! I do admit, that I am "guilty" of using 8va now and then on 1st and 2nd Violins, Flute, Clarinet, Harp, and Piano. Though I only do this if there is no room on the score for the extra ledger lines, for the Conductor, or the player. Thankfully, I have had no real "complaints" from either so far.....Peace! 🎼❤
Leave it in the score, avoid it in the players' parts unless it's requested.
As a clarinetist there is almost nothing I dislike more than 8va written in my part.
Thanks for the video Thomas. Very helpful!
One question: would 8va still be appropriate for single extremely high (but still fingered, rather than produced by harmonic) notes amidst tenor-clef-register material on viola, or amidst bass-clef-register material on cello/bass/bassoon/horn/trombone?
Hi Misky, do you mean high fingered >>treble
As a violist: we have violinists for a reason. Very high notes are very difficult on viola and can sound terrible. If you're going more than 5 ish ledger lines anove the start in treble clef, it's too high as it is.
I believe the 8va is used in a night in bald mountain for an isolated high harmonic, but the you don't have to shift to reach it. Sounding pitch is shown and the actual note can be played in first position.
As a percussionist I hate 8va or 8vb. It’s normal for parts to go a little above the treble clef staff, and our instruments don’t go low enough to need an 8vb
And in fact it would be extremely rare to be marked on any percussion instrument, as I point out in the video.
100 More Orchestration tips? Sounds like time to save up some more money. :)
I thought the "8v" in 8va was an abbreviation of "octave", and the A stood for "above" ("octave above"). Replace the A with a B for "octave below".
No, that's incorrect. "Otta" (eight, 8) + "va," = ottava or 8va. 8ba = ottabassa.
So what about ottava clefs? I was half expecting some mention of how to effectively know to use them over regular ottava markings.
Ottava clefs are completely unnecessary for standard octave transposing instruments, and should NOT be used. Sometimes you'll see a composer being overhelpful by putting an ottava up clef on a piccolo part, or an ottava down part on a double bass part. Don''t do this - a player knows the transposition already, and needs no further instruction. The one standard exception is the treble staff ottava down clef used for tenor vocal parts. That is perfectly fine to use.
@@OrchestrationOnline sorry to inquire further, but what would you say regarding keyboard instruments? Specifically, in a string orchestra arrangement I've been working on, the piano accompaniment has extended portions played at the highest couple registers. To clarify, about 2/3rds of the piece is played in this way.
@@anidiot4702 You could just start an ottava line and then follow it "through to bar X" then at bar X show the end of the line. You don't need the special clefs - in fact, there's a greater danger they'll be misunderstood or disregarded. Notes in the score are far more reliable.
As a flutist this annoys me so much!
You can use an 8va for bassoon music, it’s just as hard as tenor clef
Don't, though. Just don't. Any competent semipro-to-pro bassoonist should be able to easily read the vast majority of literature for tenor clef, while they will roll their eyes and possibly even complain loudly if you score 8va over a bass staff. Bassoonists can read treble clef if it really comes to that, probably much easier than 8va.
In most cases the best advice might be: ask the players you're writing for as much as possible. If you're a composer who writes music that's published immediately and played by dozens of orchestras within weeks, you're probably not watching this video.
That's what I did when I wrote this tip. Or rather, I've talked to countless players over the past 30 years, and the very strong consensus is that pro violinists and flutists don't need or want 8va. My tips are pretty much all like that - backed up by players working in the field. :) And it doesn't bother me if I post a tip like this and dozens of people say they disagree, because I don't know their level of experience. People who agree will usually not comment, but at the most just "Like" a video. People who disagree will comment. This video went semi-viral, which probably means that it's been shared on chat boards and linked in a bunch of places, and that's all okay.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thanks for your reply. I just discovered your channel and am eating it up- love it! I wasn't trying to contradict anything in your video- I actually meant to add to it, so I'm sorry if that didn't come across. You clearly have tons of experience and expertise. What I meant by this comment was just that the preferences of the musicians MIGHT fluctuate wildly, depending largely on the circumstances. Many composer/arrangers might be students writing for other students, in university, high school, a combination of such, or they might be professionals, or semi-professional like myself, they might be writing for volunteers or church musicians... last time I wrote for orchestra it was at a church I was director at and we organized a small orchestra from members who volunteered- some were in high school and some were semi-professional- so who knows. In many cases- and I don't mean here ONLY specifically 8va preferences- the composer/orchestrator can just ask the players directly. If possible I think that's always best. But it's not always possible, and that's why I love your videos! LOL Thanks again. (But if someone comes yelling at me for too many ledger lines I'm sending them after you!)
@@composerdoh No offence taken, just letting you know that this video was a result of taking the temperature. :) Thanks so much for your very kind words!
Tubist here, I don’t necessarily agree. In my opinion, I would prefer arrangers use ledger lines to convey a sense of musical line/direction (as in the Prok 5 excerpt in the video)
But for that other example of a part that stays down around the F-C range in the low end, I would rather read it 8vb. If the ledger lines aren’t musically conducive, I find 8vb to be more convenient.
You are a rare exception, my friend. Pretty much every tubist I spoke to for my book rolls their eyes at tuba parts.
OrchestrationOnline I will totally agree that I also roll my eyes when people write long passages in that range in the video! I guess I’m thinking more about big brass hits (say quarter notes on low F & D then Eb & C, etc) I would rather just read it 8vb than count the ledger lines for each time it changes
I *strongly* disagree with the idea against using 8va in violin. Having so many ledger lines makes absolutely *no* sense, and any professional violinist should be able to cope with 8va being used instead of memorizing things like 10th Position vs 11th Position. An important part of being a musician is being able to adapt to change.
And an important part of being a professional orchestrator and arranger is making a decision that will result in the least raised hands in rehearsal. We can rationalise what we think of as improvements all we like, but when all is said and done we will be scoring for hundreds of people who have specific needs in their training. Nearly every pro violinist I've asked about the subject prefers not to see 8va in a part. I would have to know your level of training and experience with symphonic string players before I added the same weight to your comment.
That’s considered gatekeeping. Opposing opinions are valid, no matter the experience of the player (which, in my case, is eight years: Two of them in an advanced chamber orchestra).
Thank you for the lesson 🙏
1:09 Going intro Treble Clef, do that occasionally for Double Bass parts or that your piece is a Double Bass Concerto, in my Case it's Paganini's Violin Concerto No 1 in D Major transcribed for Double Bass in Fifths Tuning.
I feel like 15ma is better than 8va. Sometimes ledger lines can be confusing. I'm really bad at sight reading because I mix up the lines (I'll read a d as a b, or a c as an a) even on the 5-line staff. So that only gets magnified for me when adding more ledger lines. This can easily be fixed by increasing the font size, but publishers often make things annoyingly small. Which, albeit, is sometimes preferable, like when you're decreasing the number of pages. But anyways, the problem I see with 8va is it switches the lines and spaces. The way music is written, a note an octave higher than a note on a line will be on a space. But two octaves higher... Well, it will still be on a line or space the same as the note two octaves lower. Ultimately, though, each player has different preferences. Given, usually people who play the same instrument have similar preferences, but not always. With modern notation software, it's not very hard to make several versions of something, so you can make several different versions of something and it won't cost much more at all. So when I start releasing stuff, I'll have a few versions. I'm a guitarist. And I also play violin. But with guitar, well, not much is written for guitar. Usually only guitarists write for guitar. So often you have to choose between re-arranging a piece yourself into a format you're familiar with, or learn to read music written for other instruments. So with guitar being written an octave higher than the sounding pitch, you sometimes forget to remember that when you're reading treble clef, like on a piano or violin part. And with wind instruments that transpose... whew, it's even tougher for them. So I personally see no valid reason for transposing, and I think it hinders expanding your repertoire to encompass a wider variety of pieces, not necessarily written for your instrument. Not only does it make it hard for transposing musicians to read music at pitch, but it also makes it hard for concert pitched instruments to read the transposed music. Anyways, I think it's good to be able to read in every clef (within the range of your instrument, at least) and so I'll always prefer a clef change over an 8va. But with very high or low pitched instruments, there isn't really a clef that you can switch to, so you have to write an 8va or just automatically play it an octave lower like with a double bass. Eh. You're the orchestrator though, with much more experience than I, so if anything I said is not the best idea I'll always listen to people who know more than me.
Hello. Im from Mumbai and I do watch your videos a lot. Thank you for such amazing material. Interestingly in the bollywood music industry, violinists hate ledger lines and consider octava reading as a basic and most essential skill.😅
8:39 I see you little rite of spring floot
I love this. Just found your channel and subscribed. I hate that as a composer I feel I'll never get every tip down, even after 20 years so much little rules for all the instruments, none of which I play except, you guessed it, piano. Is there a first book I can purchase for the first 100 rules. I have a lot of compositions with all the notes in place but I often procrastinate the editing part and continue writing. I am correcting that bad habit in my 40s.
Legends in portuguese, plese
I am a clarinet student but I like very mutch to watch You'r videos about orchestration and the instrument groups...very interesting the point of view of an orchestrator (composer) comparing to Me, the player. Make Me thinking out of the box and stimulate to think the big picture not just may horizontaly part. I think a little orchestration is usefull for every musician to understand the group of instruments, how they work, the logic of the score,etc. Thank You Thomas for the excellent work...I wish to have a professor like You..but thanks for the internet, at least I can watch You in this content!:) Greatings from Romania
I'm a trombonist and I totally agree on your take on orchestral trombone notations. That said... when I see a jazz/big band sheet with 5 and 6 added lines, I want to rip the arengers throat out. And don't use tenorclaff, that feels weird in jazz. For trombone notation in jazz pleas use 8va 4 anything above B1
I tend to use clef changes instead of 8va. I can still see it as a bit of a pet peeve for most guitarists, and definitely bowed strings, however, with guitar parts, I often add a tab for frets, and generally leave the clef parts for rhythm. it helps stop notes walking onto other staves how I write.