Hey everyone! The chart of instrument ranges at 2:04 is from Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration," which you can download for free at IMSLP dot org. Search the composer's name, then look under the "Books" tab on his page.
Writing a short orchestra piece and wondering if it is ok to put a clarinet solo with a chordal accompaniment by the brass section. (I'm asking because Resphigi does the same thing in the 3rd movement of PInes of Rome except with the string section).
Lash sounding board with chain? How about: "Beat flute against timpani" "Clarinetist and trombonist - swap mouthpieces" "Oboe player - switch to cor anglais" (within the space of one eighth-note)
i recently played a piece that was badly composed to say the least. and as a bassist in a symphony, you sir are spot on!! this guy who wrote this piece teaches composition at a university, and its like hes tryin to be Stravinsky (cant stand that) but with no coherency or theme development. wow. its was a pretty stupid score. and when the 1st trumpet says " Is that note a B or Bb ? i played it both ways and it didnt seem to matter."
To the first point: I sometimes actually accidentally borrow whole passages from my own pieces! Sometimes then i realize how the melodic direction and harmonic structure are basicly identical between the ideas
I love your patience. People always come into your comments trying to school you, just because they feel a negative reaction to your repeated condemnations of laziness, and the bad attitudes that they in general are guilty of.
Haha, I'm afraid that if I agree with you then people will get even more mad at me! ;-) Thanks for your thoughtful comment, I do try to be as patient as I can.
Although I did not perceive all your points in this short video, enough of them hit the target. Your intelligence and great sincerity is a mighty launch pad. Thank you for making your wisdom available.
You're very welcome, Steve. And as I say in the video, I've made many of these mistakes myself. I'm not acting superior here, just trying to save everyone some time.
Hi Joe- I don't have perfect pitch, but I've got fairly decent relative pitch, from constant score-reading, sight-singing, improvising, and composing hours of stuff in my head. Some great composers were born with perfect pitch, but most weren't, so it probably makes no difference whatever whether you've got it or not. Yes, it can help - but in the long run, what helps the most is intensive ear-training. Put all your effort into that, and avoid "perfect pitch" courses, because they don't work.
At 27 and out of college (a science college mind you, not a music one), it's probably a bit late for me to be realizing that orchestral composition is all I really want to do and all I've ever been slightly good at. Now of course my peers are far beyond me in skill and professional success... here I am mired in student loans and having the revelation that my biggest mistake so far in life is not going with my gut when it came to choosing a major. I wonder if it's silly to be feeling so regretful at 27. If I'm lucky, I still have the vast majority of my life ahead of me. So who knows? Perhaps I can still make a go at this if I treat my studies seriously. Thank you for providing this resource. You have a great manner of speech and subtle sense of humor that I really enjoy. :)
I didn't get a serious orchestral commission until I was age 28, and that was just the youth orchestra I'd played in asking me to write a commemorative symphony for their 30th anniversary. I didn't really start to go pro as a composer until age 35, and I wasn't firmly established as a composer and writer until my early 40's. Don't worry about it, and just get back to work on your music. :)
I was definitely guilty of most of these in my early works. I'm guilty of all of them now, too, but the difference is that now I KNOW I'm breaking the rules.
I laughed out loud at "cross eyes whilst playing". Thanks for these videos. As someone who's just getting into orchestration purely for personal enjoyment they have been really valuable.
I so love that he mentions Arvo Pärt, and especially Jerry Goldsmith (whom he mentions elsewhere, either by name directly or indirectly by his music). Goldsmith is one of my two biggest musical heroes, thumbs up for that, man.
There are some of the best orchestration tips I have ever come across! It is incredibly helpful to me as a hobbyist composer so I can enjoy my own works more! Thank you so much!
It's a good start - if you keep in mind that his descriptions of the instrument timbres are of a time and place that's unique. In the most general way, they're accurate - but for example the bassoon is a bit of a different beast today than a century ago. The late 19th century Russian approach to brass playing is also quite different from today, though you may hear examples of it in Soviet-era recordings of the repertoire. Remember, the responsibility will ultimately be yours about what's right.
I know you uploaded this years ago, but I wanted to say, I just loved the last image in this video. The burning music paper symbolizing the pain inherent in self-improvement, and the catharsis in moving on. Sometimes I wonder whether more composers should double as film makers.
Hi there! Sorry I missed your kind comment a couple months ago. Thanks for exactly understanding the symbolism I meant there. That's precisely the meaning. I wish I had staff, the movies I could make here about orchestration...
Yes - I'll have some things to say soon about the current state of Sibelius after the big shake-up last month. The lighting is unavoidable. I was being illuminated by the hellfire of all my previous mistakes!
Loved this video! Very thoughtful observations. As a school teacher, another mistake I've encountered is when composing using notation software such as Sibelius, some students feel a need to fill up the page by filling in empty bars because they feel that empty bars mean the piece is unfinished or under-developed - but this causes meaningless notes with a lack of 'function'. No doubt this is something I've been guilty of myself. When writing for a school orchestra this is perhaps more forgivable as young performers may not be able to attentively count 19 and a half bars rest while their eyes wander away from the conductor who is attempting to cue them in! But I do find the younger composers struggle to create a sense of breathing space between the tuttis.
This video is so well edited to be 10 years old. It actually looks like a recent high quality video. Great job and thank you for your advice!
10 лет назад+2
This is a great video. My former music teacher gave me most of this tips (and many more), buy I love how simple you summarised them in only 10 minutes. Definitely I will subscribe.
Dear Thomas Goss, I must say from the bottom of my heart my deepest gratitude and thanks for posting all of these orchestrated studies that I badly needed in my life. Now that I’m 50 years old, I don’t feel like I deserve to have the name or the occupation position as a composer. Most of my life I have been writing music for piano only like in the life of Chopin. But ever since I was 22 years old, I have always wanted to do orchestrations Of my earlier works like Ravel did with his. Your videos are a gem And I wished that I had these years ago. I do have the book of orchestration and principles by Rimsky-Korsakov, but I realize that I have cheated myself in right in the heart like as if it’s a piano! Oh, what an idiot I am and how much I hate myself for the mistakes that I have made in my very first large score that I have posted already on RUclips of five movements of my SERENADE FOR HARP AND STRING ORCHESTRA, OP.3. Now everybody’s is going to hear and see how much I lack in harp writing and think of me as a jackass of a composer! It makes me want to destroy the work and start all over, but I realize that it’s the harp that needs to be re-edited, not the strings. I do believe that I have a good work that has texture, balance, function, meaning, juxtaposed measures when needed, songlike structures, and overall a beautiful purpose to be performed in the future. I live in an area where culture is not appreciated at all and to be heard in America is unlikely to hear your work performed before you die, so I’m hoping that one you would be my friend and two let me know what you think of my compositions, and help me to finish what I have started in my works so I can die happy to know that my books and volumes of my works will be known somehow like you introduced me to Lili Boulanger to whom I didn’t know about till now!! Shame on me, but I love to learn, and I will support Orchestration online for the rest of my days!
Very wise words yet again, I very much appreciate your comment on the pitfalls of the modern technology. As great as it is it can groove a composer in to a specific writing just because samples can only sound good when written on a certain way. As you said it's best to trust your inner ear. Looking forward to the next video
I dig all the parts from Intro to Orchestration series, can't wait to hear more. I believe your tutorials is well approved, fun, educational, and satisfying. I always have a bunch of ideas in my head I normally write down in notes whether to arrange, compose, orchestrate or copy. I believe it's the human voice in our mind that brings in the inspiration.
That's "Night on Bare Mountain" (aka "Bald Mountain") by Mussorgsky, orch. by Rimsky-Korsakov, in case you needed to know. There are several good versions of this on RUclips. I usually use live performances, old out-of-copyright recordings, and some East European records from back before they registered international protections. And I am working on a source right now, I will talk about soon in an upcoming segment.
Great topic, and video! 1:24 - On the topic of … “accidental homages,” let’s say … I’d think that “literacy” could be a double-edged sword: the more you hear, the more likely you are to accidentally borrow something. But I guess that’s the difference between _hearing_ a lot and _really knowing_ a lot of previous literature. A lot of your comments could be summarized as, “use playbacks from scoring software just as a rough sanity-check of your mental image, not as a substitute for it.” That since it’s … not very realistic to the final performance.
I have been watching all of your tutoring videos and loving every second, but of the whole bunch this one is probably my favorite. Simple and yet perfectly to the point and inspiring... thank you for your work and for sharing your experience so generously!
Great lesson! I think we all go through some of these errors, before we find our true personal style, which also takes a lot of time and practice to get to that point, those errors are what makes us mature and learn. ..an unavoidable process. -Euryale
True story Thomas. I'm guilty of making direct and indirect quotes to other music, which was completely evident in my first string quintet. I like to blur the lines between classical and other genres in my music, so I'm in the stage of finding my true tonality. I've decided not to revise my first string quintet, but start a new and much stronger one. I'll use my first as a way to show other musicians and myself my improvement. So when I look back, I'll say "Wow! That was my rookie stage."
Whenever I compose, I have set a rule for myself to follow; if it sounds familiar, delete it and start again. Being eclectic and having listened to many pieces, I know that if something I composed sounds familiar it means it is something I have listened to in the past and therefore would be classed as plagiarism. Trusting my gut instinct is a great fail-safe to save me time I would have waisted developing an idea that is blatantly plagiarised.
How many people are graduating with degrees in music each year and how many conductors and composers are these. I hate the idea of competing with other people.I write music cuz I have to .How will I make the best I can .Coming to this channel, hearing and studying and hopefully having something worth adding to the onslaught of work that comes out every day. 7300 other people viewed this segment ! That's daunting in itself . I wont think about that just continue learning .
The brass-strings imbalance was epidemic in the film scoring program at my college: the ensemble couldn’t attract strings players because they had nothing to do
The last point, don't make your self improvement a negative, you said it pretty lightly but it really hit me. I'm probably not going to do a lot of orchestral scoring in the near future, but your videos are interesting, and this one has many solid tips of music making in general. The thing that hit me in the last tip is that it applies not even just in music, but in life. It's been a real struggle for me, and will probably continue for many years to come. It's a very good tip and I would like to keep it in mind
Not to start an argument here but I do somewhat take issue with your stance on "borrowing" unconscious or otherwise. EVERY composer has borrowed - either from another composer or from himself. In fact, darn near everything for which John Williams is famous for is taken from another composer. Ex: "Can You Read My Mind" from Superman is an almost exact quotation from R. Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration". "Imperial March" was undoubtedly inspired from Holst's "The Planets" (specifically "Mars, The Bringer of War"). At some point, you reach a limitation of notes available and can't help but sounding like someone else at some point. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. And, like I say, John Williams has profited handsomely from it!!! Regards, BWB
I believe the examples you quote are "conscious borrowing." There's nothing wrong with borrowing - but with all respect, you're misinterpreting my category. The point is that composers often borrow without intending, in ways that are clearly derivative rather than developmental. If a composer does not want to be so imitative, but becomes so simply through carelessness or lack of memory, then it is an error.
OrchestrationOnline OK, Thanks - I do appreciate your clearing that up for me. I guess I didn't quite understand your premise the first time around. Thinking back approximately 30 years now I do believe that I was guilty myself then of what you're talking about here. Weber was my favorite composer at that time and I'd constantly find myself sitting down and simply trying to rewrite "Freischutz" or "Oberon". That's what we want to avoid!!! (-: Regards, BWB
I would say - if you have a strong stylistic impulse for motion, then you should develop your ability to end up somewhere. Study how harmonic and melodic development move a score from one idea to the next. Pay close attention to the emotional arcs that drive ideas in great works. My music is all about emotions - building, releasing, contrasting, and developing. All other issues are subsidiary.
@PlushChronicles I'd say, read Harmony by Walter Piston, then Vincent Persichetti's Twentieth Century Harmony. When you've got a good grounding, read Form in Tonal Music by Douglass Green. That will put you back on track.
A great set of axioms! While listening, I was reminded of Elton John's album, "Madman Across the Water". As soon as imposters emerged, like the horrid String Machine of the 70s, pop music had bastardized the orchestra in attempts to "pad" a less than cohesive tune and melody. The symphonic community did not take well to fake strings being used to repair cheesy music. Then, with the release of Elton's fourth album, proper use and respect for the merge of rock and string ensemble found acclaim among symphony members. I believe this was due to the total understanding of genre, instrument, and the musicians. Nowhere on this album can a single arrangement be found guilty of losing its way, forgetting the core, or acting in a manner below or above itself. I never have found out who the composer of Madman's string and brass lines was, but he or she created a masterpiece. Whoever the individual, they certainly had a discipline like that described in this video-tutorial. I have always been intrigued with orchestration, especially when it comes to modern popular music. It takes a great sense of balance to pull that gig off. Sometimes, a good composer will rise to the task. The result is a memorable and meaningful performance.
@8Ho03EdONl1liL Wrong question. Perfection is as much a part of humanity as imperfection. Stop worrying about Mozart's mistakes, and focus on improving yourself - what could you do better? Even Mozart was a learner once, and his student pieces have numerous charming inadequacies. But that doesn't prove anything one way or another. The only thing in the end that matters is what we have to prove to ourselves. Keep that on the top of your list, and get back to work.
I appreciate your work and educational videos. We need more score-reading analysis - I'm interested in learning how composers blend instruments of the orchestra together as well as use synthetic patches (Omnisphere, Project Sam, Native Instruments, etc.) to speak in tongues as it were - I greatly appreciate George Fenton's brilliant and tasteful use of technology, e.g. I would like to also add that ALL composers copy from each other to varying degrees - I would argue that it's impossible not to. At the same time, not all compositions are variations on existing music, however old. It is wise to remember Picasso's line that "good artists borrow, great artists steal." Consider Leonard Bernstein's West Side Story motif "stolen" direct from Beethoven, Billy Joel's ripping off of Mozart for "Uptown Girl", John Williams Star Wars theme, Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven (a complete rip-off of Spirit, which in turn was ripped off from Bach), Shakespeare, TS Eliot, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. As a composer myself, I do get inspired by other seminal works - but always try to use them as a springboard, not as an end point. Thank you.
Hey there, i just have access to sampled instruments but as you said, i wanna stay in the "human" realm even if anybody is going to play my orchestations, i just founded myself adding volume all the way up on the mixer till i felt the instrument sounded fine, in a real orchesta that would be impossible and i dont wanna "cheat". Do you have any kind of tips ?
I just watched that part. This is hillarious! Honeslty, SEMPRE... This work is written for a timpanist with 4 legs... maybe it could get performed in the chernobyl philharmonic ;)
mytube2 years ago One instrument should not dorminate over the other instruments in an orchestra, that's why we have a conductor. (end quote) Uh, no. That's the composers job
Although every orchestra is different, every piece is different, and every situation is different. Even a score that's flawlessly balanced on paper will need to be adjusted to different orchestras, depending on the style and strength of the players. So the conductor still will have something to do, though it's a great treat to have them tell you that your score played itself. That's always nice.
Interesting if so, but the problem in my case and other professional orchestrators' is that we have so much time and training invested in one program that anything new would have to be truly spectacular to get us to change. Spreadbury's reputation might be enough, but the software would have to follow through with the kind of speed that we're used to, or even faster. It would also have to be familiar enough to change easily, but different enough not to get sued. Tall order...
@franklindavid What? I completely don't understand that statement. Certain unisons will be completely out of balance, i.e. violins + trumpets. If the entire orchestra is playing in unison, then the brass will dominate. That's not balance. Such passages must be very carefully voiced, with staggered dynamics. Please watch Part 4: Texture, Balance, and Function where I define balance.
1:28 Though, as a jazz composer who likes to emulate the techniques and style of 30s (Mostly Ellington) jazz, I do often include a brief passage that bears resemblance to an existing Ellington piece, but I never make these the focus of the music, just a little homage to the person I'm influenced by.
But that's intentional, not unintentional. You could write a whole piece in the style of Ellington, and it wouldn't be a mistake by my criteria here. The mistake would be if you accidentally quote him note-for-note when you think you're being original.
Ah, but you're referring to the technique of an experienced composer. My point here is that beginning composers often borrow without realizing it. The error is not that material from a pre-existing work is used (which has its place), but that the composer ends up with a score they wish they hadn't written once they realize what happened.
On 2:11 of this video there is a shoot of a book with instruments and a description of their timbre. What book is that and how can i get a digital copy with all instruments or an orchestras timbre?
Hello Thomas, I am a 14 year old who is just getting into orchestration and I was wanting to get some more advice on writing orchestral or string pieces. I can usually come up with a good melody but the harmonies and structure is what I fall apart on. PLEASE respond it would really help :)
Very nice explained! Could you tell me where could I find what's in the picture at 2:05 for most, if not all instruments please? I'd look it up, but I don't know how exactly are those called :\ I did try looking it up but with no result.. Thank you in advance!
Interesting philosophical point. However, it's not my job to decide such matters. All I can point out is what does and doesn't work with live musicians. What's more, such sounds that balance naturally almost always result in better comprehension for the listener.
If you're composing to please yourself, then do whatever you like. If you want an orchestra to perform your work someday, then you have to compose with a clear internal vision of what you want the piece to sound like, and score to that based on your knowledge and instincts. Don't rely on the samples as the end product. I don't know what tips I could give you - I think you'll just have to work it out step by step.
If the Sibelius team do get completely laid off, I think it would actually be really interesting to see what they could do if they reformed under a new name and started writing new notation software from scratch. Without the burden of backwards compatibility and keeping the userbase of older versions happy, they could do things differently than they would have wanted to in Sibelius, and get things right from the start, fixing mistakes and using what they've learned over the past 15 years.
@nickmaestro Good for you, Nick. If you were a perfect being, then you'd be incapable of growth. So we all as composers must make mistakes, and through our errors grow into more capable and original creators. So never apologize, and keep your eyes on the road ahead.
One thing i see a lot is that someone will write a piece, ylu'll point out a criticism like 'the flutes won't be audible because of the register you've put them in in relation to the instruments around them' and they'll just say 'well i can hear it fine' Or you say something a,along the lines of 'that's unnecessary and difficult' and they'll go 'well i think it's necessary, and as long as it's possible' - like for example having your cellos and violas do triads 'oh well the orchestra can just divisi' or having your oboe line be monophonic, but then adding a dyad in a weak beat of a random bar because 'it doesn't sound right without it' when in reality they just don't want to admit they're scoring is immature. This is made even more apparent and frustrating when they surround themselves by people who admire them, effectively being a big fish in a small pond. A few kind words from musesclre self taught composers admiring their work creates the illusion that what they're composing is good. They'll never say it's perfect and will always say 'i know i need to improve' but their actions and reaction to criticism only proves they believe the exact opposite of this. I'm not angry that these people's scoring is fully developed, because i would never try to claim that i'm any kind of musical authority especially on orchestration, but the clear and blatant refusual to progress by a subconscious belief that they're already perfect is quite irritating, because they may ask for criticism and then get defensive because what they really wanted was praise Basically it's the whole post odernist 'everything's subjective' and so if you can break the rules then you should break the rules, even though you don't understand what the rules are or why they existed to begin with
Jimmy, I don't think of "rules" as much as "approaches." Things generally work the same way, but of course there are exceptions, or rather, ways to refine the definitions of what works in which situations.
OrchestrationOnline i know, that's exactly how i think about them also. I don't mean to give the impression that you have to follow rules, because that makes for rather limited music. What i means is that the 'rules' exist for a reason, because breaking them will usually lead to something odd in your music. For example, making your violas and cellos and double basses play triads divisi will pverwhelm the rest of the orchestra, and you'll have certain notes played lots of times by different instruments making them stand out. If you're doing this with a certain sound in mind, i have no problem. But in a lot of these circumstances it's clear that the orchestrator (who probabky plays piano, especially in cases where this specific example happens) is just writing a piece of music for the orchestra as though the orchestra were just their natural instrument. Like writing mozart's 16th sonata then just putting the melody in a violin, and just copying the accompaniment to cellos. Or writing up Rachmaninoff's C# prelude, and putting all the chords in the cellos all the time when it doesn't add anything.I'm not trying to advocate the really strict following of rules, because i'm sure i don't follow them to the point either or even very well (i'm still very new, so i don't even know all the rules). But what i don't like is when the rules are broken, not because they should be, but just because they can be. Writing edgy music for the sake of it being edgy, producing really synthetic and artificial sounds (basically just like playing. Akeyboard but where the bottom half has a cello sound and the top half has a flute sound) and then just always insisting they want 'this' sound, without even being able to tell you what 'this' sound is to them. It's that the approaches are broken again not because there's good reason, but because the composer doesn't know why they're there or what they do - and again any criticism pertaining to these rules is just retorted with 'well i wanted it to be like that'
It's okay to CONSCIOUSLY borrow anything. The point is that you're aware of the borrowing. If the borrowing is for parody, then usually that is okay in terms of copyright. But not always, so tread lightly if you want to use protected content.
@@OrchestrationOnline In my specific case, my work contain a double-fuge passage, in which one theme is my own and the other I derived from a pop song on purpose (Partially because I write this work based on a story that mentions this very song). Is this applicable?
Question 2 is when i write melodies i seem to keep writing big interval jumps.I can sing them but i notice all the writers i look up to tend to stay around an interval of a Maj2nd and occasionally jump up a 5th using the high notes more sparingly.For example i have a melody with an E minor chord and it starts G down a m6 to B then up a 4th to E.The tempo is slow.Would you say the intervals are a bit too jumpy for a male voice.
Your right i dont need a copyright yet.The song is done as in lead sheet chords and lyrics,but ive not split up the harmony yet and i have do this on 12 other songs too and decide instruments.Which is why i like orchestration to add other instruments.I also need to be able to sing better and play a whole song no mess ups.About 2 years.Im just thinking ahead if i put in the time to make this song with that intro will they say no can do buddy.I dont mind getting sued if its worth it.
At ~2:08 you show a page from a text that has the range of several woodwinds. I'm looking for a similar chart for all the major instruments in the average orchestra. Book, separate chart, chalk writing on the sidewalk... do you have a lead for the information?
Hey everyone! The chart of instrument ranges at 2:04 is from Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration," which you can download for free at IMSLP dot org. Search the composer's name, then look under the "Books" tab on his page.
Writing a short orchestra piece and wondering if it is ok to put a clarinet solo with a chordal accompaniment by the brass section. (I'm asking because Resphigi does the same thing in the 3rd movement of PInes of Rome except with the string section).
Make your self into your own favrouite composer is possibly the best advice I've ever heard
Lash sounding board with chain? How about:
"Beat flute against timpani"
"Clarinetist and trombonist - swap mouthpieces"
"Oboe player - switch to cor anglais" (within the space of one eighth-note)
passengersplace "Muted euphonium"
"Tromboon"
sacrelige
i recently played a piece that was badly composed to say the least. and as a bassist in a symphony, you sir are spot on!! this guy who wrote this piece teaches composition at a university, and its like hes tryin to be Stravinsky (cant stand that) but with no coherency or theme development. wow. its was a pretty stupid score. and when the 1st trumpet says " Is that note a B or Bb ? i played it both ways and it didnt seem to matter."
😂
Wow that sounds horrible….even atonal composers like Berg had more sense of melody and harmony
7:04 "The orchestra is not made up of instruments, but of people" So important!
To the first point: I sometimes actually accidentally borrow whole passages from my own pieces! Sometimes then i realize how the melodic direction and harmonic structure are basicly identical between the ideas
I love your patience. People always come into your comments trying to school you, just because they feel a negative reaction to your repeated condemnations of laziness, and the bad attitudes that they in general are guilty of.
Haha, I'm afraid that if I agree with you then people will get even more mad at me! ;-) Thanks for your thoughtful comment, I do try to be as patient as I can.
Although I did not perceive all your points in this short video, enough of them hit the target.
Your intelligence and great sincerity is a mighty launch pad.
Thank you for making your wisdom available.
You're very welcome, Steve. And as I say in the video, I've made many of these mistakes myself. I'm not acting superior here, just trying to save everyone some time.
Thank you for your insights. Composition is a process that takes a lifetime.
Hahahaha "cross eyes while playing"!
@Tyguy80s "Think of spring and Tchaikovsky"
From Rautavaara's "Cantus arcticus"
Hi Joe-
I don't have perfect pitch, but I've got fairly decent relative pitch, from constant score-reading, sight-singing, improvising, and composing hours of stuff in my head. Some great composers were born with perfect pitch, but most weren't, so it probably makes no difference whatever whether you've got it or not. Yes, it can help - but in the long run, what helps the most is intensive ear-training. Put all your effort into that, and avoid "perfect pitch" courses, because they don't work.
At 27 and out of college (a science college mind you, not a music one), it's probably a bit late for me to be realizing that orchestral composition is all I really want to do and all I've ever been slightly good at. Now of course my peers are far beyond me in skill and professional success... here I am mired in student loans and having the revelation that my biggest mistake so far in life is not going with my gut when it came to choosing a major.
I wonder if it's silly to be feeling so regretful at 27. If I'm lucky, I still have the vast majority of my life ahead of me. So who knows? Perhaps I can still make a go at this if I treat my studies seriously.
Thank you for providing this resource. You have a great manner of speech and subtle sense of humor that I really enjoy. :)
I didn't get a serious orchestral commission until I was age 28, and that was just the youth orchestra I'd played in asking me to write a commemorative symphony for their 30th anniversary. I didn't really start to go pro as a composer until age 35, and I wasn't firmly established as a composer and writer until my early 40's. Don't worry about it, and just get back to work on your music. :)
3:51 Smash instrument and Cross eyes while playing :)
Ok, I think . . . I _think_ . . . I'm more or less ok. For now.
"smash instrument" did me a 1.45am lol. Nice.
I was definitely guilty of most of these in my early works. I'm guilty of all of them now, too, but the difference is that now I KNOW I'm breaking the rules.
I laughed out loud at "cross eyes whilst playing". Thanks for these videos. As someone who's just getting into orchestration purely for personal enjoyment they have been really valuable.
I so love that he mentions Arvo Pärt, and especially Jerry Goldsmith (whom he mentions elsewhere, either by name directly or indirectly by his music). Goldsmith is one of my two biggest musical heroes, thumbs up for that, man.
There are some of the best orchestration tips I have ever come across! It is incredibly helpful to me as a hobbyist composer so I can enjoy my own works more! Thank you so much!
"cross eyes while playing" - hilarious
It's a good start - if you keep in mind that his descriptions of the instrument timbres are of a time and place that's unique. In the most general way, they're accurate - but for example the bassoon is a bit of a different beast today than a century ago. The late 19th century Russian approach to brass playing is also quite different from today, though you may hear examples of it in Soviet-era recordings of the repertoire. Remember, the responsibility will ultimately be yours about what's right.
I know you uploaded this years ago, but I wanted to say, I just loved the last image in this video. The burning music paper symbolizing the pain inherent in self-improvement, and the catharsis in moving on. Sometimes I wonder whether more composers should double as film makers.
Hi there! Sorry I missed your kind comment a couple months ago. Thanks for exactly understanding the symbolism I meant there. That's precisely the meaning. I wish I had staff, the movies I could make here about orchestration...
3:51 "Smash instrument"
Well... there is a piece called "Eight songs for a Mad King" by Peter Maxwell Davies, if you know what I mean...😂
Yes - I'll have some things to say soon about the current state of Sibelius after the big shake-up last month.
The lighting is unavoidable. I was being illuminated by the hellfire of all my previous mistakes!
Still one of the most effective videos out there
You're very kind.
Loved this video! Very thoughtful observations. As a school teacher, another mistake I've encountered is when composing using notation software such as Sibelius, some students feel a need to fill up the page by filling in empty bars because they feel that empty bars mean the piece is unfinished or under-developed - but this causes meaningless notes with a lack of 'function'. No doubt this is something I've been guilty of myself. When writing for a school orchestra this is perhaps more forgivable as young performers may not be able to attentively count 19 and a half bars rest while their eyes wander away from the conductor who is attempting to cue them in! But I do find the younger composers struggle to create a sense of breathing space between the tuttis.
This video is so well edited to be 10 years old. It actually looks like a recent high quality video. Great job and thank you for your advice!
This is a great video. My former music teacher gave me most of this tips (and many more), buy I love how simple you summarised them in only 10 minutes. Definitely I will subscribe.
Dear Thomas Goss,
I must say from the bottom of my heart my deepest gratitude and thanks for posting all of these orchestrated studies that I badly needed in my life. Now that I’m 50 years old, I don’t feel like I deserve to have the name or the occupation position as a composer. Most of my life I have been writing music for piano only like in the life of Chopin. But ever since I was 22 years old, I have always wanted to do orchestrations Of my earlier works like Ravel did with his.
Your videos are a gem And I wished that I had these years ago. I do have the book of orchestration and principles by Rimsky-Korsakov, but I realize that I have cheated myself in right in the heart like as if it’s a piano! Oh, what an idiot I am and how much I hate myself for the mistakes that I have made in my very first large score that I have posted already on RUclips of five movements of my SERENADE FOR HARP AND STRING ORCHESTRA, OP.3. Now everybody’s is going to hear and see how much I lack in harp writing and think of me as a jackass of a composer! It makes me want to destroy the work and start all over, but I realize that it’s the harp that needs to be re-edited, not the strings.
I do believe that I have a good work that has texture, balance, function, meaning, juxtaposed measures when needed, songlike structures, and overall a beautiful purpose to be performed in the future.
I live in an area where culture is not appreciated at all and to be heard in America is unlikely to hear your work performed before you die, so I’m hoping that one you would be my friend and two let me know what you think of my compositions, and help me to finish what I have started in my works so I can die happy to know that my books and volumes of my works will be known somehow like you introduced me to Lili Boulanger to whom I didn’t know about till now!! Shame on me, but I love to learn, and I will support Orchestration online for the rest of my days!
I have seen so many of these mistakes at young composers gatherings. Great advice!
This is absolutely great. Thank you very much for your work!!
Very wise words yet again,
I very much appreciate your comment on the pitfalls of the modern technology.
As great as it is it can groove a composer in to a specific writing just because samples can only sound good when written on a certain way. As you said it's best to trust your inner ear.
Looking forward to the next video
3:32 welllll..... have you seen the score of Ferneyhough's "La terre est un homme"?
Actually, we should ask at this point "Who hasn't?" :)
It looks great, sounds like mud though.
sorry but only the "intellect" from the circle jerking academia like that shit.
I dig all the parts from Intro to Orchestration series, can't wait to hear more. I believe your tutorials is well approved, fun, educational, and satisfying. I always have a bunch of ideas in my head I normally write down in notes whether to arrange, compose, orchestrate or copy. I believe it's the human voice in our mind that brings in the inspiration.
Thank you very much for once again creating an extremely informative and helpful video!
"smash instrument" lol killed me
That's "Night on Bare Mountain" (aka "Bald Mountain") by Mussorgsky, orch. by Rimsky-Korsakov, in case you needed to know. There are several good versions of this on RUclips.
I usually use live performances, old out-of-copyright recordings, and some East European records from back before they registered international protections. And I am working on a source right now, I will talk about soon in an upcoming segment.
Great topic, and video!
1:24 - On the topic of … “accidental homages,” let’s say … I’d think that “literacy” could be a double-edged sword: the more you hear, the more likely you are to accidentally borrow something. But I guess that’s the difference between _hearing_ a lot and _really knowing_ a lot of previous literature.
A lot of your comments could be summarized as, “use playbacks from scoring software just as a rough sanity-check of your mental image, not as a substitute for it.” That since it’s … not very realistic to the final performance.
I have been watching all of your tutoring videos and loving every second, but of the whole bunch this one is probably my favorite. Simple and yet perfectly to the point and inspiring... thank you for your work and for sharing your experience so generously!
Thank you ! I always find information here deep and refined. The trombodont was hilarious : )
Can you please give an example on #6? I dont see how this kind of attitude would translate into music
Great lesson!
I think we all go through some of these errors,
before we find our true personal style,
which also takes a lot of time and practice
to get to that point,
those errors are what makes us mature
and learn.
..an unavoidable process.
-Euryale
True story Thomas. I'm guilty of making direct and indirect quotes to other music, which was completely evident in my first string quintet. I like to blur the lines between classical and other genres in my music, so I'm in the stage of finding my true tonality. I've decided not to revise my first string quintet, but start a new and much stronger one. I'll use my first as a way to show other musicians and myself my improvement. So when I look back, I'll say "Wow! That was my rookie stage."
Whenever I compose, I have set a rule for myself to follow; if it sounds familiar, delete it and start again. Being eclectic and having listened to many pieces, I know that if something I composed sounds familiar it means it is something I have listened to in the past and therefore would be classed as plagiarism. Trusting my gut instinct is a great fail-safe to save me time I would have waisted developing an idea that is blatantly plagiarised.
How many people are graduating with degrees in music each year and how many conductors and composers are these. I hate the idea of competing with other people.I write music cuz I have to .How will I make the best I can .Coming to this channel, hearing and studying and hopefully having something worth adding to the onslaught of work that comes out every day. 7300 other people viewed this segment ! That's daunting in itself . I wont think about that just continue learning .
The brass-strings imbalance was epidemic in the film scoring program at my college: the ensemble couldn’t attract strings players because they had nothing to do
How come I never heard of this channel. Very awesome!
The last point, don't make your self improvement a negative, you said it pretty lightly but it really hit me.
I'm probably not going to do a lot of orchestral scoring in the near future, but your videos are interesting, and this one has many solid tips of music making in general.
The thing that hit me in the last tip is that it applies not even just in music, but in life. It's been a real struggle for me, and will probably continue for many years to come. It's a very good tip and I would like to keep it in mind
Not to start an argument here but I do somewhat take issue with your stance on "borrowing" unconscious or otherwise. EVERY composer has borrowed - either from another composer or from himself. In fact, darn near everything for which John Williams is famous for is taken from another composer. Ex: "Can You Read My Mind" from Superman is an almost exact quotation from R. Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration". "Imperial March" was undoubtedly inspired from Holst's "The Planets" (specifically "Mars, The Bringer of War"). At some point, you reach a limitation of notes available and can't help but sounding like someone else at some point. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. And, like I say, John Williams has profited handsomely from it!!! Regards, BWB
I believe the examples you quote are "conscious borrowing." There's nothing wrong with borrowing - but with all respect, you're misinterpreting my category. The point is that composers often borrow without intending, in ways that are clearly derivative rather than developmental. If a composer does not want to be so imitative, but becomes so simply through carelessness or lack of memory, then it is an error.
OrchestrationOnline OK, Thanks - I do appreciate your clearing that up for me. I guess I didn't quite understand your premise the first time around. Thinking back approximately 30 years now I do believe that I was guilty myself then of what you're talking about here. Weber was my favorite composer at that time and I'd constantly find myself sitting down and simply trying to rewrite "Freischutz" or "Oberon". That's what we want to avoid!!! (-: Regards, BWB
Excellent information and presentation, with many parts equally applicable to the art of jazz improvisation. Love your videos!
Sound advice, thanks. I am enjoying ALL your videos. I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken to put them together.
As I noted below, Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration. You may download this book for free from Open Library or IMSLP.org.
5:05 what is the book that block of text is from? that passage looks really dark. XD
I would say - if you have a strong stylistic impulse for motion, then you should develop your ability to end up somewhere. Study how harmonic and melodic development move a score from one idea to the next. Pay close attention to the emotional arcs that drive ideas in great works. My music is all about emotions - building, releasing, contrasting, and developing. All other issues are subsidiary.
@PlushChronicles I'd say, read Harmony by Walter Piston, then Vincent Persichetti's Twentieth Century Harmony. When you've got a good grounding, read Form in Tonal Music by Douglass Green. That will put you back on track.
That's from Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration, available on IMSLP dot org.
I laughed at 2:25 :D
Great video! These are all considerations which will be at the forefront of my thinking.
A great set of axioms! While listening, I was reminded of Elton John's album, "Madman Across the Water". As soon as imposters emerged, like the horrid String Machine of the 70s, pop music had bastardized the orchestra in attempts to "pad" a less than cohesive tune and melody. The symphonic community did not take well to fake strings being used to repair cheesy music. Then, with the release of Elton's fourth album, proper use and respect for the merge of rock and string ensemble found acclaim among symphony members. I believe this was due to the total understanding of genre, instrument, and the musicians. Nowhere on this album can a single arrangement be found guilty of losing its way, forgetting the core, or acting in a manner below or above itself. I never have found out who the composer of Madman's string and brass lines was, but he or she created a masterpiece. Whoever the individual, they certainly had a discipline like that described in this video-tutorial. I have always been intrigued with orchestration, especially when it comes to modern popular music. It takes a great sense of balance to pull that gig off. Sometimes, a good composer will rise to the task. The result is a memorable and meaningful performance.
One instrument should not dorminate over the other instruments in an orchestra, that's why we have a conductor.
@8Ho03EdONl1liL Wrong question. Perfection is as much a part of humanity as imperfection. Stop worrying about Mozart's mistakes, and focus on improving yourself - what could you do better? Even Mozart was a learner once, and his student pieces have numerous charming inadequacies. But that doesn't prove anything one way or another. The only thing in the end that matters is what we have to prove to ourselves. Keep that on the top of your list, and get back to work.
hey profesor!
the score burning at the end is so cool! :D
thanks for the tips and for posting so useful videos
greetings from a mexicano
I appreciate your work and educational videos. We need more score-reading analysis - I'm interested in learning how composers blend instruments of the orchestra together as well as use synthetic patches (Omnisphere, Project Sam, Native Instruments, etc.) to speak in tongues as it were - I greatly appreciate George Fenton's brilliant and tasteful use of technology, e.g. I would like to also add that ALL composers copy from each other to varying degrees - I would argue that it's impossible not to. At the same time, not all compositions are variations on existing music, however old. It is wise to remember Picasso's line that "good artists borrow, great artists steal." Consider Leonard Bernstein's West Side Story motif "stolen" direct from Beethoven, Billy Joel's ripping off of Mozart for "Uptown Girl", John Williams Star Wars theme, Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven (a complete rip-off of Spirit, which in turn was ripped off from Bach), Shakespeare, TS Eliot, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. As a composer myself, I do get inspired by other seminal works - but always try to use them as a springboard, not as an end point. Thank you.
Nice irony, to go from the constructive question "what could I do better?" to imagery of scores being deliberately burned.
Hey there, i just have access to sampled instruments but as you said, i wanna stay in the "human" realm even if anybody is going to play my orchestations, i just founded myself adding volume all the way up on the mixer till i felt the instrument sounded fine, in a real orchesta that would be impossible and i dont wanna "cheat". Do you have any kind of tips ?
I just watched that part. This is hillarious! Honeslty, SEMPRE... This work is written for a timpanist with 4 legs... maybe it could get performed in the chernobyl philharmonic ;)
I do not understand the use of Mussorgsky’s music for this topic. Why not use Wagner?
Ok I just have know, what is the symbolism behind the burning music at the end? lol
just moving on i guess, it's a nice metaphor actually
mytube2 years ago
One instrument should not dorminate over the other instruments in an orchestra, that's why we have a conductor. (end quote)
Uh, no. That's the composers job
Although every orchestra is different, every piece is different, and every situation is different. Even a score that's flawlessly balanced on paper will need to be adjusted to different orchestras, depending on the style and strength of the players. So the conductor still will have something to do, though it's a great treat to have them tell you that your score played itself. That's always nice.
I do all my own graphics! Thanks for the ups!
Thank you so much! Very helpfull! Greetings from Costa Rica
Interesting if so, but the problem in my case and other professional orchestrators' is that we have so much time and training invested in one program that anything new would have to be truly spectacular to get us to change. Spreadbury's reputation might be enough, but the software would have to follow through with the kind of speed that we're used to, or even faster. It would also have to be familiar enough to change easily, but different enough not to get sued. Tall order...
@franklindavid What? I completely don't understand that statement.
Certain unisons will be completely out of balance, i.e. violins + trumpets. If the entire orchestra is playing in unison, then the brass will dominate. That's not balance. Such passages must be very carefully voiced, with staggered dynamics.
Please watch Part 4: Texture, Balance, and Function where I define balance.
1:28 Though, as a jazz composer who likes to emulate the techniques and style of 30s (Mostly Ellington) jazz, I do often include a brief passage that bears resemblance to an existing Ellington piece, but I never make these the focus of the music, just a little homage to the person I'm influenced by.
But that's intentional, not unintentional. You could write a whole piece in the style of Ellington, and it wouldn't be a mistake by my criteria here. The mistake would be if you accidentally quote him note-for-note when you think you're being original.
Ah, but you're referring to the technique of an experienced composer. My point here is that beginning composers often borrow without realizing it. The error is not that material from a pre-existing work is used (which has its place), but that the composer ends up with a score they wish they hadn't written once they realize what happened.
*Terenamentississimo*
Ok one has to be able to read that first...
On 2:11 of this video there is a shoot of a book with instruments and a description of their timbre. What book is that and how can i get a digital copy with all instruments or an orchestras timbre?
Hello Thomas, I am a 14 year old who is just getting into orchestration and I was wanting to get some more advice on writing orchestral or string pieces. I can usually come up with a good melody but the harmonies and structure is what I fall apart on. PLEASE respond it would really help :)
How is your orchestration coming along?
I’m 14 right now & you’re now 24. How did your musical journey go? Did you stick to orchestration and develop a sort of voice over time?
Very nice explained! Could you tell me where could I find what's in the picture at 2:05 for most, if not all instruments please? I'd look it up, but I don't know how exactly are those called :\
I did try looking it up but with no result..
Thank you in advance!
+Aedrian Matthew Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration.
+OrchestrationOnline Thank you! Found the book.
Thanks a lot! I've got a long way to go.
great videos
Interesting philosophical point. However, it's not my job to decide such matters. All I can point out is what does and doesn't work with live musicians. What's more, such sounds that balance naturally almost always result in better comprehension for the listener.
This was a HUGE help to me...thank you sir!
If you're composing to please yourself, then do whatever you like. If you want an orchestra to perform your work someday, then you have to compose with a clear internal vision of what you want the piece to sound like, and score to that based on your knowledge and instincts. Don't rely on the samples as the end product. I don't know what tips I could give you - I think you'll just have to work it out step by step.
If the Sibelius team do get completely laid off, I think it would actually be really interesting to see what they could do if they reformed under a new name and started writing new notation software from scratch. Without the burden of backwards compatibility and keeping the userbase of older versions happy, they could do things differently than they would have wanted to in Sibelius, and get things right from the start, fixing mistakes and using what they've learned over the past 15 years.
Dorico (sold by Steinberg)
@nickmaestro Good for you, Nick. If you were a perfect being, then you'd be incapable of growth. So we all as composers must make mistakes, and through our errors grow into more capable and original creators. So never apologize, and keep your eyes on the road ahead.
One thing i see a lot is that someone will write a piece, ylu'll point out a criticism like 'the flutes won't be audible because of the register you've put them in in relation to the instruments around them' and they'll just say 'well i can hear it fine'
Or you say something a,along the lines of 'that's unnecessary and difficult' and they'll go 'well i think it's necessary, and as long as it's possible' - like for example having your cellos and violas do triads 'oh well the orchestra can just divisi' or having your oboe line be monophonic, but then adding a dyad in a weak beat of a random bar because 'it doesn't sound right without it' when in reality they just don't want to admit they're scoring is immature. This is made even more apparent and frustrating when they surround themselves by people who admire them, effectively being a big fish in a small pond. A few kind words from musesclre self taught composers admiring their work creates the illusion that what they're composing is good. They'll never say it's perfect and will always say 'i know i need to improve' but their actions and reaction to criticism only proves they believe the exact opposite of this. I'm not angry that these people's scoring is fully developed, because i would never try to claim that i'm any kind of musical authority especially on orchestration, but the clear and blatant refusual to progress by a subconscious belief that they're already perfect is quite irritating, because they may ask for criticism and then get defensive because what they really wanted was praise
Basically it's the whole post odernist 'everything's subjective' and so if you can break the rules then you should break the rules, even though you don't understand what the rules are or why they existed to begin with
Jimmy, I don't think of "rules" as much as "approaches." Things generally work the same way, but of course there are exceptions, or rather, ways to refine the definitions of what works in which situations.
OrchestrationOnline i know, that's exactly how i think about them also. I don't mean to give the impression that you have to follow rules, because that makes for rather limited music. What i means is that the 'rules' exist for a reason, because breaking them will usually lead to something odd in your music. For example, making your violas and cellos and double basses play triads divisi will pverwhelm the rest of the orchestra, and you'll have certain notes played lots of times by different instruments making them stand out. If you're doing this with a certain sound in mind, i have no problem. But in a lot of these circumstances it's clear that the orchestrator (who probabky plays piano, especially in cases where this specific example happens) is just writing a piece of music for the orchestra as though the orchestra were just their natural instrument. Like writing mozart's 16th sonata then just putting the melody in a violin, and just copying the accompaniment to cellos. Or writing up Rachmaninoff's C# prelude, and putting all the chords in the cellos all the time when it doesn't add anything.I'm not trying to advocate the really strict following of rules, because i'm sure i don't follow them to the point either or even very well (i'm still very new, so i don't even know all the rules). But what i don't like is when the rules are broken, not because they should be, but just because they can be. Writing edgy music for the sake of it being edgy, producing really synthetic and artificial sounds (basically just like playing. Akeyboard but where the bottom half has a cello sound and the top half has a flute sound) and then just always insisting they want 'this' sound, without even being able to tell you what 'this' sound is to them. It's that the approaches are broken again not because there's good reason, but because the composer doesn't know why they're there or what they do - and again any criticism pertaining to these rules is just retorted with 'well i wanted it to be like that'
@ezev8logos Hey, thanks much. I accidentally erased your other comment - I hit the wrong button when I was trying to reply, sorry.
Where do this page at 2:09 come from?????? From what book please!
Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration, which you can download for free at IMSLP dot org.
Wonderful advice.
This is excellent, love these advices.
Thank you for No. 4 !!! 🙏
All the instruments should be in unison to create balance.
Is it okay to borrow melodies from pop songs as one of the (supplementary, not main) motifs?
It's okay to CONSCIOUSLY borrow anything. The point is that you're aware of the borrowing. If the borrowing is for parody, then usually that is okay in terms of copyright. But not always, so tread lightly if you want to use protected content.
@@OrchestrationOnline In my specific case, my work contain a double-fuge passage, in which one theme is my own and the other I derived from a pop song on purpose (Partially because I write this work based on a story that mentions this very song). Is this applicable?
Sing it yourself, and if it sounds good then keep it, and if not, start over.
Question 2 is when i write melodies i seem to keep writing big interval jumps.I can sing them but i notice all the writers i look up to tend to stay around an interval of a Maj2nd and occasionally jump up a 5th using the high notes more sparingly.For example i have a melody with an E minor chord and it starts G down a m6 to B then up a 4th to E.The tempo is slow.Would you say the intervals are a bit too jumpy for a male voice.
@OktoberStorm Pulau Ujong, the main island of the state of Singapore.
2:05
What orchestration book is that from?
Extremely helpful... thanks Thomas!
Your right i dont need a copyright yet.The song is done as in lead sheet chords and lyrics,but ive not split up the harmony yet and i have do this on 12 other songs too and decide instruments.Which is why i like orchestration to add other instruments.I also need to be able to sing better and play a whole song no mess ups.About 2 years.Im just thinking ahead if i put in the time to make this song with that intro will they say no can do buddy.I dont mind getting sued if its worth it.
Very informative... Thank you :-)
At ~2:08 you show a page from a text that has the range of several woodwinds. I'm looking for a similar chart for all the major instruments in the average orchestra. Book, separate chart, chalk writing on the sidewalk... do you have a lead for the information?
It's from Rimsky - Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration.
or just ask for some player from many instruments, modern design and region may cause some different.