Tiny little mistake in the narration at 0:51 where I say "evidence" and I meant to say advice. There is much conflicting advice, but the EVIDENCE is clear that the combination works if you know what you're doing.
If one wants a doubled oboe-clarinet texture in the lower register, I’d imagine swapping oboe for English horn (and clarinet for bass clarinet if profoundly low) could work wonderfully
@@OrchestrationOnline Would it be good practice to indicate "non vib." every time on oboe/bassoon playing exposed melodic lines with clarinet? Or is such an approach heavy-handed?
Brilliant! I know meme culture is sweeping through all cracks these days -- so a small part of me wanted this video to be someone screaming: "Oboe & clarinet unisons? Don't do it! Seriously! Don't. Do. It!" But then I saw it was 19 minutes long and very legit. Bravo, sir!
I think clarinets are great for unison doublings in general. They can make a richer sound by doubling a melody on any other wind instrument, than if that instrument plays alone.
Unfinished and Venus are good examples of the slightly eerie, unsettling quality of the combination, quite certainly chosen on purpose. I needed the same for a piece, tried it, and it worked perfectly. Thanks for the effort to produce this very insightful video with many other inspiring use cases.
My pleasure! Good to hear that the combination also worked for you. It's really up to the players - if they're total pros and the scoring is good, the results should be scintillating.
@@OrchestrationOnline thank you for taking the time to reply, and for all your tutoring. I still have to get through the first 100 book, but intend to get all of them over time.
Another great one! As a trombone player I noticed something interesting in the Uranus example at 14:52, the 2nd trombone is actually below the bass, which is unusual. The only other time I remember noticing that is in Lt. Kije at the beginning of the Troika where the 2nd has the pedal Bb and the bass takes the Bb in the staff. I am guessing both Holst and Prokofiev wanted the more raunchy low register of the tenor rather than the rounder bass in those spots?
Possibly so - it has a pretty raspy sound there. Then he also gets to line up his bass tuba, bass trombone, and tenor tuba (euph) in a nice triple octave.
Oboe is my primary instrument and I ADORE this combination, having played it many times before... I think the aspects of perfect unison between oboe and clarinet that make it supposedly "dangerous" are actually what makes it most fun to me, and honestly, I think that leaning into the weirdness and supposed "incompatibility" is what makes it great. It's such a wonderfully raucous, almost organ-like sound. A couple of added comments... - English horn and clarinet is also a really, really fun combination that perhaps better takes advantage of the clarinet's low range (although I do personally love the clarinet sound against oboe's very lowest notes). Debussy's Fetes comes to mind. - As you've said, the timbre tends to be a little bit more balanced when clarinets outnumber oboes. I primarily come from a concert band setting where there might be ~3 oboes and ~10 clarinets (if not more)-- in this scenario, us oboists have a little bit more liberty to play out and enhance the richness of tone. - Speaking from experience, when playing in unison, us oboes need to rein in our natural tendency to express (or perhaps overexpress). So the result of these kinds of unisons is a very static, stable line. I personally don't think this is really a bad thing, just something to be understood. That being said, we'll naturally dampen the vibrato in these kinds of settings, so personally I don't think marking no vibrato is very needed. Great video as always! The Lieutenant Kije excerpt is definitely my favorite out of those you chose. Love to see the double reed love.
First, great topic! Admittedly, I had never heard of this alleged prohibition before, so thanks for expounding upon it. 10:06 - In this particular performance, as well as others I’ve heard, the clarinet seems to dominate. The oboe is clearly audible of course, but the composite timbre seems more like an extension of a clarinet sound than a blending of the two. An area you might want to comment upon further, Thomas, is how this doubling fares in other types of ensembles, like wind quintets, say, or in concert band contexts.
It would be great to see some more examples of flute and bassoon in unison (same octave). The combination of flute in its low register and bassoon in the tenor produces a really special sound. The example that comes to mind is the 2nd movement of Malcolm Arnold Symphony no. 5, when the 2nd theme is introduced in bar 18.
Thanks for the video! This is so interesting, I recently played oboe in Schumann 2 with my orchestra and at first it was very complex to paste the sound and balance with the clarinet, especially in the 3rd movement. But the result was wonderful and I personally loved the orchestration of the symphony
If I remember correctly, I think Respighi does something similar in his Fountains of Rome, where the initial melody is then taken over by low flute, and oboe and clarinet in that chalumeau. The low flute I think does balance the sound a bit. But Respighi was always a rule-breaker...
A very long time ago in a galaxy far away (High School in the 70's, to be precise), I was arranging some Broadway stuff for my HS orchestra. I had a long solo phrase where I wanted some pungency, and I remember I justified my choice of unison clarinet & oboe from that bit at the beginning of the Unfinished. It was also mentioned in a small "orchestration handbook" I had at the time, which I found very helpful in justifying random decisions like this. (Can't remember the author for the life of me.)
There've been several times when I've been listening to a piece, wondered if there was saxophone in it, only to realise it was oboe and clarinet in unison
Thanks for the video. The reason principal orchestra woodwinds are arranged close to each other is so they can play the doubled melodies. I have played the Shubert in an amateur community orchestra. It is a challenge.
I love the idea! Just to let you know that my next planned analysis series will actually start with busting one of the biggest musical myths of all time. But you'll see when we get there. Thanks so much!
@@OrchestrationOnline Argh now I'm going to be trying all day to guess what the myth in question is! That A clarinet is warmer than Bb (you debunked this one already, as I recall!), that the tuba isn't an effective solo instrument (also debunked in a previous O/O tip, cue Prokofiev!). It's probably something much bigger, but in any case, I can't wait! Glad to see/hear that you're doing better, and thank you for the great content as usual!
That's funny, Oboe + Clarinet has always been my favorite woodwind combination in orchestration, I didn't even know people were against. Whereas on the other hand Clarinet + Flute rarely seems to work quite well Though Bassoon + Oboe and Bassoon + Clarinet and Flute + Oboe work awesomely as well. The best is bassoon + bassoon, but it doesn't count because it is one instrument
As a clarinetist, the sketch - languorously- asking for a A clarinet not only makes it easier for fingering but also for facilitating the intrumentt to speak freely, specially on the larger intervals between D and A ( F-C for clarinet)..
Don't be. Mahler symphonies are like enormously long novels, and would take much more time to source examples. Also, I knew what I was going to say with which excerpts going into this. I have other videos that discuss Mahler. This one just didn't.
I've read oboe and horn shouldn't be used together for a solo line. Exceptions go back to 18th c. wind sextour music and forward to a wonderful passage in Mahler's 9th Symphony mvmt. I
Another really excellent and detailed woodwind video - thank you! I just performed Schubert's Unfinished Symphony on oboe, and that opening was pretty scary for intonation and blend. I was lucky the clarinet player was so adaptable, and I think we pulled it off well. But my nerves would have preferred it was a solo...
Was wanting a video like this. Thanks for posting this, the fact so much of this is free is a wonderful thing! Also I have a question. Me and my professor were having a friendly debate as to what constitutes as “writing music in your head” I always write on paper but most of the time I have to actually see and rework the notes on the page in real time as I’m writing, where he says writing in your head is simply transcribing to paper without doing much experimentation and editing on the page. It’s a peculiar discussion I thought worth sharing
Hm, perhaps I'm not understanding your professor, but I tend to compose, develop, rewrite, edit, and adjust many factors before I score anything out manually. I think a huge amount of experimentation can happen before a single note is written. Maybe that's what he means, I'm not sure. Anyway, I have several pieces I've been working on mentally for year, including a piano concerto. But not much time to write it out, or point really unless someone wanted to play it (and I haven't been trying to court any soloists).
@ I think what he meant was that truly writing music in your head occurs before your pencil hits the page. Whereas composing on paper and working out melodies and harmonies that didn’t previously exist in your mind before isn’t quite the same. Curious as to what your thoughts are
@@johnbjorgenson5481 To me, there's no difference whether I write something out, or noodle around with a DAW or Sibelius, or write the whole thing mentally. It's all the same quality and succeeds or fails the same. The only difference is that I now compose much faster mentally than I ever could with any other method - and I don't really have that much time anymore. In order to feed my family through my work, I have to harness the fruits of my imagination as quickly and efficiently as possible. So I work almost exclusively by thinking up what I want the piece to sound like, then do any major editing all in my head - followed by minor editing during the scoring process.
@@johnbjorgenson5481 Of course, I got to this point after decades of work and training, it wasn't overnight. But yeah, to the degree that everything is mental, it just depends on how that brain activates different parts of itself to work on music, and whether that helps to get the job done for each composer. Stravinsky and John Williams both wrote music at the piano their whole lives. So there's nothing wrong with that.
Hmmm… A wild thought popped into mind watching this video: It might be interesting to compare oboe/clarinet doublings with bassoon/bass-clarinet doublings. That’s not super-common in orchestral settings, but not unheard of in concert band works.
2:47 in the flute doublings, it's stated: "...the flute will predominate in the lower, the oboe/clarinet in the higher register." Am I misunderstanding something? I thought the flute's lower register was weak?
5:35 crappy, crappy synths don’t belong in this discussion. It certainly illustrates nothing useful, and the sound is as unpleasant as the smell of… garbage. I was enjoying the intelligence of this presentation, and then was illegitimately slapped in the face with this crap. Good job up until then, though. I regret that I have to use such harsh language, which I seldom do, but that sound was so offensive, I can’t understand how you could even listen to it. Signed: A old musical craftsman whose orchestrations have been premiered by the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eschenbach, back in the day (when the PO was GREAT)
It's so great to get feedback from someone who really cares about authenticity. Certainly your level of concern will be great enough to donate to the channel so I can afford to book players like this in a studio, so I don't have to use simulated examples? That's terrific! Thanks so much for watching, and I look forward to your generous assistance.
Tiny little mistake in the narration at 0:51 where I say "evidence" and I meant to say advice. There is much conflicting advice, but the EVIDENCE is clear that the combination works if you know what you're doing.
Because we played Schubert just a few months ago, this melody immediately emerged when I saw the thumbnail. Truly wonderful writing and Orchestration.
Yeah, Schubert was really going above and beyond his usual above-and-beyond. Thanks for the comment! 🙂
The combined sound of these two instruments is actually more interesting than most people give it credit for.
I love schuberts 8th symphony! It was such a joy to play in orchestra!
It really is a fantastic piece of music.
If one wants a doubled oboe-clarinet texture in the lower register, I’d imagine swapping oboe for English horn (and clarinet for bass clarinet if profoundly low) could work wonderfully
There are several examples of both, but I didn't have time to add them. Bass clarinet and nonvibrato bassoon can also make a compelling blend.
@@OrchestrationOnline Would it be good practice to indicate "non vib." every time on oboe/bassoon playing exposed melodic lines with clarinet? Or is such an approach heavy-handed?
@@itznoxy7193 You could mark it without it being an onerous request. Don't worry about that. Maybe in parentheses?
@@itznoxy7193 As a bassoonist I wouldn't mind! (But as a pedant I'd go with "senza vib.", since "vibrato" is a noun. :^) )
Brilliant!
I know meme culture is sweeping through all cracks these days -- so a small part of me wanted this video to be someone screaming: "Oboe & clarinet unisons? Don't do it! Seriously! Don't. Do. It!"
But then I saw it was 19 minutes long and very legit.
Bravo, sir!
One of my favorite Stravinsky pieces uses Basss Clarinet and bowed Double bass. I know they're not both woodwinds but i liked that sound quite a lot.
Strings blend well with everything. It's one of the reasons why they are so foundational to the orchestra.
Indeed
Yes! Thank you so much for this Video, Thomas! This feels kind of liberating. 😅
Happy to provide, and even happier to know you feel freer to make these kinds of decisions (within reason).
Excellent tips, Thomas! Gives me some great ideas! Your videography skills are also very impressive.
I think clarinets are great for unison doublings in general. They can make a richer sound by doubling a melody on any other wind instrument, than if that instrument plays alone.
Unfinished and Venus are good examples of the slightly eerie, unsettling quality of the combination, quite certainly chosen on purpose. I needed the same for a piece, tried it, and it worked perfectly. Thanks for the effort to produce this very insightful video with many other inspiring use cases.
My pleasure! Good to hear that the combination also worked for you. It's really up to the players - if they're total pros and the scoring is good, the results should be scintillating.
Would love to hear an excerpt of your piece. Delighted to hear it worked perfectly for you.
@@OrchestrationOnline thank you for taking the time to reply, and for all your tutoring. I still have to get through the first 100 book, but intend to get all of them over time.
@@itznoxy7193 thank you for asking ruclips.net/video/ibvxEo1fHL0/видео.html, the eerie echo from 1:55 for example
I'm happy to see you mentioned my good friend (fellow Bulgarian / fellow Plovdiv-born conductor & percussionist) Konstantin Dobroykov around 3:25
A fine conductor with wonderful imagination and superb technique! Please convey my regards.
Another great one!
As a trombone player I noticed something interesting in the Uranus example at 14:52, the 2nd trombone is actually below the bass, which is unusual. The only other time I remember noticing that is in Lt. Kije at the beginning of the Troika where the 2nd has the pedal Bb and the bass takes the Bb in the staff. I am guessing both Holst and Prokofiev wanted the more raunchy low register of the tenor rather than the rounder bass in those spots?
Possibly so - it has a pretty raspy sound there. Then he also gets to line up his bass tuba, bass trombone, and tenor tuba (euph) in a nice triple octave.
Oboe is my primary instrument and I ADORE this combination, having played it many times before... I think the aspects of perfect unison between oboe and clarinet that make it supposedly "dangerous" are actually what makes it most fun to me, and honestly, I think that leaning into the weirdness and supposed "incompatibility" is what makes it great. It's such a wonderfully raucous, almost organ-like sound.
A couple of added comments...
- English horn and clarinet is also a really, really fun combination that perhaps better takes advantage of the clarinet's low range (although I do personally love the clarinet sound against oboe's very lowest notes). Debussy's Fetes comes to mind.
- As you've said, the timbre tends to be a little bit more balanced when clarinets outnumber oboes. I primarily come from a concert band setting where there might be ~3 oboes and ~10 clarinets (if not more)-- in this scenario, us oboists have a little bit more liberty to play out and enhance the richness of tone.
- Speaking from experience, when playing in unison, us oboes need to rein in our natural tendency to express (or perhaps overexpress). So the result of these kinds of unisons is a very static, stable line. I personally don't think this is really a bad thing, just something to be understood. That being said, we'll naturally dampen the vibrato in these kinds of settings, so personally I don't think marking no vibrato is very needed.
Great video as always! The Lieutenant Kije excerpt is definitely my favorite out of those you chose. Love to see the double reed love.
Great perspective! Thanks so much for sharing.
I’ve used oboe/clarinet unisons in a lot of my work recently, and I really like it.
First, great topic! Admittedly, I had never heard of this alleged prohibition before, so thanks for expounding upon it.
10:06 - In this particular performance, as well as others I’ve heard, the clarinet seems to dominate. The oboe is clearly audible of course, but the composite timbre seems more like an extension of a clarinet sound than a blending of the two.
An area you might want to comment upon further, Thomas, is how this doubling fares in other types of ensembles, like wind quintets, say, or in concert band contexts.
It would be great to see some more examples of flute and bassoon in unison (same octave). The combination of flute in its low register and bassoon in the tenor produces a really special sound. The example that comes to mind is the 2nd movement of Malcolm Arnold Symphony no. 5, when the 2nd theme is introduced in bar 18.
Thanks for the video! This is so interesting, I recently played oboe in Schumann 2 with my orchestra and at first it was very complex to paste the sound and balance with the clarinet, especially in the 3rd movement. But the result was wonderful and I personally loved the orchestration of the symphony
Incredible video, this is the orchestration class I always wanted to take. Thank you so much!
If I remember correctly, I think Respighi does something similar in his Fountains of Rome, where the initial melody is then taken over by low flute, and oboe and clarinet in that chalumeau. The low flute I think does balance the sound a bit. But Respighi was always a rule-breaker...
A very long time ago in a galaxy far away (High School in the 70's, to be precise), I was arranging some Broadway stuff for my HS orchestra. I had a long solo phrase where I wanted some pungency, and I remember I justified my choice of unison clarinet & oboe from that bit at the beginning of the Unfinished. It was also mentioned in a small "orchestration handbook" I had at the time, which I found very helpful in justifying random decisions like this. (Can't remember the author for the life of me.)
There've been several times when I've been listening to a piece, wondered if there was saxophone in it, only to realise it was oboe and clarinet in unison
I believe I was either on that thread or saw it on Facebook (I know for sure at least the latter.) Glad to see you put out a video about it!
Thanks for the video. The reason principal orchestra woodwinds are arranged close to each other is so they can play the doubled melodies. I have played the Shubert in an amateur community orchestra. It is a challenge.
Wind orchestras and concert band music doubles oboe and clarinet all the time.
As an oboist I LOVE the unison solo in the first movement of rachmaninoff 2nd piano concerto!
Excellent video as usual, Thomas! I call for a new series of videos: "Mythbusters: O/O edition!".
I love the idea! Just to let you know that my next planned analysis series will actually start with busting one of the biggest musical myths of all time. But you'll see when we get there. Thanks so much!
@@OrchestrationOnline Argh now I'm going to be trying all day to guess what the myth in question is! That A clarinet is warmer than Bb (you debunked this one already, as I recall!), that the tuba isn't an effective solo instrument (also debunked in a previous O/O tip, cue Prokofiev!). It's probably something much bigger, but in any case, I can't wait! Glad to see/hear that you're doing better, and thank you for the great content as usual!
I would love to see Thomas do an orchestration myth busting mini-series, complete with beret and walrus moustache :)
That's funny, Oboe + Clarinet has always been my favorite woodwind combination in orchestration, I didn't even know people were against. Whereas on the other hand Clarinet + Flute rarely seems to work quite well
Though Bassoon + Oboe and Bassoon + Clarinet and Flute + Oboe work awesomely as well. The best is bassoon + bassoon, but it doesn't count because it is one instrument
Chalumeau clarinet with flute an octave above can work nicely
Thank you for this amazing lesson!
I love clarinet and clarinet unisons
As an oboist this is always an awkward combo. Especially having to play an octave above the clarinet (nabucco, ugh)
As a clarinetist, the sketch - languorously- asking for a A clarinet not only makes it easier for fingering but also for facilitating the intrumentt to speak freely, specially on the larger intervals between D and A ( F-C for clarinet)..
beautiful video thanks
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Mahler. I think he used it in his symphonies a lot.
edit: I just realized this combination also contained flute.
Don't be. Mahler symphonies are like enormously long novels, and would take much more time to source examples. Also, I knew what I was going to say with which excerpts going into this. I have other videos that discuss Mahler. This one just didn't.
Wonderful insights! Thanks!
I loved this! Is the same concept applicable to their auxiliaries, like those e.horn+bass clarinet passages in Mahler's 2nd?
Great video! Wow
I've read oboe and horn shouldn't be used together for a solo line. Exceptions go back to 18th c. wind sextour music and forward to a wonderful passage in Mahler's 9th Symphony mvmt. I
Another really excellent and detailed woodwind video - thank you! I just performed Schubert's Unfinished Symphony on oboe, and that opening was pretty scary for intonation and blend. I was lucky the clarinet player was so adaptable, and I think we pulled it off well. But my nerves would have preferred it was a solo...
You're very welcome! Great to get the player's perspective on this, thank YOU for chiming in.
Relieved 😆 thanks Thomas
Yeah haha, I'm getting the sense this is solving a lot of problems for different viewers!
That melodic jump from G# to B at 3:28 is rather hard in the oboe, isn’t it?
Great stuff! -Douglas Hein
Thanks so much!
Awesome as always! thank you Thomas!!
Thanks Bruno!
Was wanting a video like this. Thanks for posting this, the fact so much of this is free is a wonderful thing!
Also I have a question.
Me and my professor were having a friendly debate as to what constitutes as “writing music in your head” I always write on paper but most of the time I have to actually see and rework the notes on the page in real time as I’m writing, where he says writing in your head is simply transcribing to paper without doing much experimentation and editing on the page. It’s a peculiar discussion I thought worth sharing
Hm, perhaps I'm not understanding your professor, but I tend to compose, develop, rewrite, edit, and adjust many factors before I score anything out manually. I think a huge amount of experimentation can happen before a single note is written. Maybe that's what he means, I'm not sure. Anyway, I have several pieces I've been working on mentally for year, including a piano concerto. But not much time to write it out, or point really unless someone wanted to play it (and I haven't been trying to court any soloists).
@ I think what he meant was that truly writing music in your head occurs before your pencil hits the page. Whereas composing on paper and working out melodies and harmonies that didn’t previously exist in your mind before isn’t quite the same.
Curious as to what your thoughts are
@@johnbjorgenson5481 To me, there's no difference whether I write something out, or noodle around with a DAW or Sibelius, or write the whole thing mentally. It's all the same quality and succeeds or fails the same. The only difference is that I now compose much faster mentally than I ever could with any other method - and I don't really have that much time anymore. In order to feed my family through my work, I have to harness the fruits of my imagination as quickly and efficiently as possible. So I work almost exclusively by thinking up what I want the piece to sound like, then do any major editing all in my head - followed by minor editing during the scoring process.
@@johnbjorgenson5481 Of course, I got to this point after decades of work and training, it wasn't overnight. But yeah, to the degree that everything is mental, it just depends on how that brain activates different parts of itself to work on music, and whether that helps to get the job done for each composer. Stravinsky and John Williams both wrote music at the piano their whole lives. So there's nothing wrong with that.
Great vid thanks!
I would looove, a video where you go through the planets one by one carmina burana style
Just go to the channel and look for my playlist on The Planets, I already have a 22-chapter score analysis series.
Hmmm… A wild thought popped into mind watching this video: It might be interesting to compare oboe/clarinet doublings with bassoon/bass-clarinet doublings. That’s not super-common in orchestral settings, but not unheard of in concert band works.
Anonymous people: Don't use oboe + clarinet
Mahler and Shostakovich: Hold my drink while I constantly double clarinets and oboe, often with flutes.
2:47 in the flute doublings, it's stated: "...the flute will predominate in the lower, the oboe/clarinet in the higher register." Am I misunderstanding something? I thought the flute's lower register was weak?
Yup, that is wrong. But there are some stylistic and historical issues that would take too long to explain here.
Forgot to mention the 2nd movement of Shostakovich's Symphony 10
Not at all! I just didn't have room for it in the structure of this tip. But please add all instances that you like.
Do you plan on making any physical copies of your books available?
8:45 11:34
so funny that people assume this is a big rule when to in my mind it jumps out as an obvious pairing.
what is the outro piece?
Same as the intro - Schubert's 8th Symphony. It's mentioned in the credits, as I do with all the general theme music for my videos.
What software program was used for the orchestration examples?
Sibelius running NotePerformer.
what’s the song at the end?
Always check the credits. It's the end of the 2nd movement of the Schubert.
OBOI
Tip: oboe/clarinet unisons are a horrible idea. Choose love.
5:35 crappy, crappy synths don’t belong in this discussion. It certainly illustrates nothing useful, and the sound is as unpleasant as the smell of… garbage. I was enjoying the intelligence of this presentation, and then was illegitimately slapped in the face with this crap. Good job up until then, though. I regret that I have to use such harsh language, which I seldom do, but that sound was so offensive, I can’t understand how you could even listen to it.
Signed:
A old musical craftsman whose orchestrations have been premiered by the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eschenbach, back in the day (when the PO was GREAT)
It's so great to get feedback from someone who really cares about authenticity. Certainly your level of concern will be great enough to donate to the channel so I can afford to book players like this in a studio, so I don't have to use simulated examples? That's terrific! Thanks so much for watching, and I look forward to your generous assistance.