First, i love the ideas. I don't use dyneema lengths greater than 200', with eye bury splices on each end. When i have to connect 1/8" sections, i just use 3/16" stainless quicklinks. The quicklink threads are previously sprayed with dry teflon. Unglamorous, but has worked (so far). HMPE is high MODULUS polyethylene? As opposed to UHMWPE which is ultra high molecular weight Prince Edward.
I'd love to see you test some real sailing shackles that have aluminum or carbon dog bones spliced into them instead of button knots, they're quite a bit stronger, it would be cool to see how much.
When it comes to analyzing/reversing what failed first in synthetic ropes I believe a thermal camera would be a huge help. Both my phone's have flir thermal imaging built in (blackview bl8800pro and bv9800pro) and it gets used multiple times a week for diagnostics for electrical, mechanical ect.
I kinda figured the type 2 would do better once I saw the slowmo on the first type. The differential loading on the type 1 made me think the 2 would share load more evenly giving stronger & more consistent results.
Full blown detailed nerd level videos need simple meat and potato videos like this to balance the load. I watch them all but quick to the point information is always going to be a win win.
We use dyneema of a similar thickness on the winch at my glider club to pull up 800 ish kilo 2 seater planes :') i really expected more wire, but apparently its all we need. Next to that, we sometimes break a cable, and to fix it we just splice the stuff together, good as new!
Yaay for type 2! I like that style of integrated shackle because I can understand how it works. Type 1 seemed more complicated. I appreciate when the simple solution is the stronger one.
My position is that the Brummel is a vulnerability here. It is just supposed to be an easy replacement for a stitch-lock to keep the loose splice from shifting. Why not create them that way & test. Don't stitch with dyneema. Use something stetchy. Maybe whipping twine? About a decade (or more) ago, I made a sheet for my boat that was out of a single piece of line, including a built in soft shackle and no Brummel. Just create an eye by feeding enough line for the eye, plus the bury, plus for creating a button knot, back down itself, exiting at the length of the desired eye, then fashion a button knot with the tail feeeding out the bottom & send that back in the exit point to create the bury & taper. make it reallly long, no scrimping.
So one of the other things to consider is the bend radius (for instance in the type 2 arrangement, where the small loop with the button knot has the 4mm line around it) . Iirc dyneema wants a min of a 3x it's dia. bend radius to retain its max strength, and it would appear, although the type 2 did very well, that where the large dia and small dia interface, and subsequently broke, is a quite small bend Rad. Certainly visually appears to only be the 4mm (actually 3.5mm) bend Rad. I love these variants, i built a crazy one I'll have to send you a pic of that I've yet to test yet, made from 3/8 Samson Amsteel Blue. I tend to believe that a soft shackle with a properly buried button knot retains so much of its strength, is that the neck of the button knot is so thick, essentially 4x the dia.
I'd love to see your variant! The larger the bend radius the more strength is preserved, so I interpret the "3x diameter" rule as more of a rule of thumb for when you start hitting really large losses. When the manufacturers determine the breaking strength they use huge cylinders often 50x diameter or more. Most knots will have bend radii of ~1, which is terrible for any fiber really, but especially for low-stretch stuff like Dyneema. Notably the Figure-8 knot is an exception, with larger bend radii.
What a surprising result. I would have assumed the other type being stonger. Now I need to rething a line that I have with something similar to the weaker one.
I have a samsung refridgerator with all the bells and whistles. A full electronic control system, independent climates in separate drawers, you name it. I have a 1996 side by side fridge in the garage, all analog mechanical controls, no bells, no whistles. I have had to fix the samsung I don't know how many times, never worked on the other. The more complicated the system, the more points of possible failure.
I would like to see some tests on questionable pieces of protection. Examples: a thin tree/bush that someone might rappel off of, possibly a small Boulder that you might belay around, possibly some sun faded cam slings that are permanently imbedded in cracks. I have clipped some questionable stuff in the ADK’s and wanna know how risky it was.
Thanks for the excellent content. Hope one day you can get some crazy slow motion stuff, maybe a colab with Gavin and Dan, the Slo Mo Guys? There's some seriously interesting science that can be uncovered if you could see the exact mechanism by which the knots and splices fail, and perhaps even come up with ways to make them better, more efficient. Really loving these break test videos, not just the dyneema stuff. When you realize the kind of forces it takes to break your good rope, or biners, harnesses, cams and whatnot you really do start trusting your gear a little more. Granted you still have the issue of placement or installation to contend with, but that's just another piece of the puzzle. At least you know what you CAN trust, and that makes you trust the system as a whole at least a LITTLE more. Again - thanks for the content and keep up the great work. Stay safe out there!
On the type 2, instead of running the small loop through the brummel, what if you ran the small loop behind the brummel and crossed through it in an X pattern, so that the small loop is pulling on both parts of the brummel, yet is kept in place by the brummel?
Have you done any videos on the sustainability of dyneema vs other materials? I know kevlar uses some pretty nasty substances and a lot of energy to make.
Not my area of expertise, but a few thoughts. It seems, if I have understood correctly, that the guts of the matter comes down to . . . Non-integrated soft shackles VS integrated soft shackles. To my mind non-integrated seems to offer simplicity and versatility of equipment, whilst integrated seems incredibly complex, and wondering if that complexity will lead, in time, to manufacturing errors by someone not fully understanding the fine and many details, or overlooking something vital. The old adage, 'KISS keep it simple stupid,' comes to mind. I appreciate in the field that one specialized item might be very useful. And appreciate how interesting all these options are. Great work. Hope helps. Any thoughts?
I think this is very valid, and I'll be picky where to use these. What I have been doing up until now is to make a normal eye-splice, and take a normal soft shackle, thread the shackle in the eye quite close to the knot, and seize it in place with a waxed twine. This is almost as elegant I feel, more flexible, and arguably safer in the sense you mention that there is just less going on and less opportunity to make mistakes. I'll probably use these for terminating halyards though for example, where you really want a very permanent shackle at the end.
Hi! I wonder if you ever tested how strong is the connection of two ropes without knots. I don’t know what is the name of the technique used to do it, but I know it is used to connect the steel cable that holds chiairlifts or cableways. Great video btw!!
I have to admit, I thought the type 2 would be far weaker for sure. Interesting to see that over the three tests, it actually performed better than the type 1.
If you had the money to burn, would splicing the tails tip to tip (each tail buried half the finished length, so that they meet in the middle) be the strongest? Since there wouldn't be a diameter change.
hey Ryan, any chance you would make a video replacing a cam sling with this kind of dyneema cord spliced end to end into an extendable sling configuration? i wonder if the 6mm cord would weaken the steel cable more than the oem slings...
I know I'm going to feel like a goober when someone answers this but how do you do locked eyes on opposite ends of a piece of hollow cord? Brummeling the first eye is text book simple, tapper and bury the end. But what do you do on the second eye?
IMO it would be nice to see an example how and when to use (or not use) some of the presented variation. Right know I do not know the usage of this example
So I'm primarily a sailor, and will use these for terminating halyards for example, where you really want a very permanent shackle. I concede that this is pretty nisch though :)
You mean so that there are three ends sticking out of the main rope, two for the loop and two for the knot? I thought of that too, but ultimately I could never get the three parts to sit nicely inside the main rope. It's just too bulky. I'd love to see your attempt though, maybe I missed something obvious!
10:19 - When that splice gives up the ghost, it will certainly cause the tail to pop out. Why? Simply because that brummel splice is the tough guy holding the tail in place. If that splice breaks, it can't do its job anymore and the tail can slip out.
The finger trap effect can hold it at full strength even without the brummel. Weird, but true. This "bury splice" is what they do for official test samples.
Reminds me of the freedom winch line by bleepin jeep, it would be cool to see some off road equipment break tests sometime. Maybe you can collaborate with someone.
Matts Offroad Recovery uses a winch line that looks like that but without the brummel? made by freedom winch lines. maybe a collaboration? exposing the limitations of the gear he uses for his edification as well as ours?
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
First, i love the ideas. I don't use dyneema lengths greater than 200', with eye bury splices on each end. When i have to connect 1/8" sections, i just use 3/16" stainless quicklinks. The quicklink threads are previously sprayed with dry teflon. Unglamorous, but has worked (so far). HMPE is high MODULUS polyethylene? As opposed to UHMWPE which is ultra high molecular weight Prince Edward.
I'd love to see you test some real sailing shackles that have aluminum or carbon dog bones spliced into them instead of button knots, they're quite a bit stronger, it would be cool to see how much.
ruclips.net/video/XOBH7xoYmCY/видео.html the button knots were stronger than alumnium disks
When it comes to analyzing/reversing what failed first in synthetic ropes I believe a thermal camera would be a huge help.
Both my phone's have flir thermal imaging built in (blackview bl8800pro and bv9800pro) and it gets used multiple times a week for diagnostics for electrical, mechanical ect.
Now I REALLY appreciate how LOUD those explosions are!
It blows my mind how strong those thin cords are!
Keep these videos coming!
I kinda figured the type 2 would do better once I saw the slowmo on the first type. The differential loading on the type 1 made me think the 2 would share load more evenly giving stronger & more consistent results.
Dear Dr. Not2 thank you for the interesting perspectives pioneering the way thru the new unknowns of this industry, very interesting
Full blown detailed nerd level videos need simple meat and potato videos like this to balance the load. I watch them all but quick to the point information is always going to be a win win.
We use dyneema of a similar thickness on the winch at my glider club to pull up 800 ish kilo 2 seater planes :') i really expected more wire, but apparently its all we need. Next to that, we sometimes break a cable, and to fix it we just splice the stuff together, good as new!
Yaay for type 2! I like that style of integrated shackle because I can understand how it works. Type 1 seemed more complicated. I appreciate when the simple solution is the stronger one.
But it is weaker than separate soft shackle to eye
The double Brummel with the small loop is brilliant! Thank you for sharing.
My position is that the Brummel is a vulnerability here. It is just supposed to be an easy replacement for a stitch-lock to keep the loose splice from shifting. Why not create them that way & test. Don't stitch with dyneema. Use something stetchy. Maybe whipping twine?
About a decade (or more) ago, I made a sheet for my boat that was out of a single piece of line, including a built in soft shackle and no Brummel. Just create an eye by feeding enough line for the eye, plus the bury, plus for creating a button knot, back down itself, exiting at the length of the desired eye, then fashion a button knot with the tail feeeding out the bottom & send that back in the exit point to create the bury & taper. make it reallly long, no scrimping.
Thank you for all of the interesting content Ryan! I have been so excited every single time you post a video recently
So one of the other things to consider is the bend radius (for instance in the type 2 arrangement, where the small loop with the button knot has the 4mm line around it) . Iirc dyneema wants a min of a 3x it's dia. bend radius to retain its max strength, and it would appear, although the type 2 did very well, that where the large dia and small dia interface, and subsequently broke, is a quite small bend Rad. Certainly visually appears to only be the 4mm (actually 3.5mm) bend Rad.
I love these variants, i built a crazy one I'll have to send you a pic of that I've yet to test yet, made from 3/8 Samson Amsteel Blue.
I tend to believe that a soft shackle with a properly buried button knot retains so much of its strength, is that the neck of the button knot is so thick, essentially 4x the dia.
I'd love to see your variant!
The larger the bend radius the more strength is preserved, so I interpret the "3x diameter" rule as more of a rule of thumb for when you start hitting really large losses. When the manufacturers determine the breaking strength they use huge cylinders often 50x diameter or more. Most knots will have bend radii of ~1, which is terrible for any fiber really, but especially for low-stretch stuff like Dyneema. Notably the Figure-8 knot is an exception, with larger bend radii.
All dyneema, all the time. They're my favorite.
We also use a lot of dyneema in flying trapeze
What a surprising result. I would have assumed the other type being stonger. Now I need to rething a line that I have with something similar to the weaker one.
You should consider getting a high speed camera setup! Would love to see that
Great video as always Ryan, thank you for uploading! 👍👍
I have a samsung refridgerator with all the bells and whistles. A full electronic control system, independent climates in separate drawers, you name it. I have a 1996 side by side fridge in the garage, all analog mechanical controls, no bells, no whistles. I have had to fix the samsung I don't know how many times, never worked on the other. The more complicated the system, the more points of possible failure.
your channel has grown huge this last few years. congrats.
Sine they breakin the Brummel, don't use a brummel. Stitch-lock instead, bnd not with Dyneema - something that will stretch a bit. or don't
I would like to see some tests on questionable pieces of protection. Examples: a thin tree/bush that someone might rappel off of, possibly a small Boulder that you might belay around, possibly some sun faded cam slings that are permanently imbedded in cracks. I have clipped some questionable stuff in the ADK’s and wanna know how risky it was.
Thanks for the excellent content. Hope one day you can get some crazy slow motion stuff, maybe a colab with Gavin and Dan, the Slo Mo Guys? There's some seriously interesting science that can be uncovered if you could see the exact mechanism by which the knots and splices fail, and perhaps even come up with ways to make them better, more efficient. Really loving these break test videos, not just the dyneema stuff. When you realize the kind of forces it takes to break your good rope, or biners, harnesses, cams and whatnot you really do start trusting your gear a little more. Granted you still have the issue of placement or installation to contend with, but that's just another piece of the puzzle. At least you know what you CAN trust, and that makes you trust the system as a whole at least a LITTLE more.
Again - thanks for the content and keep up the great work.
Stay safe out there!
I'm guessing the type 1 test will break in the Brummel splice as well.
I like this stuff a lot! I know it serves a smaller audience, but I appreciate these videos!
Pretty sure iv seen some winch lines for 4x4s just like that, with the soft shackle built in
On the type 2, instead of running the small loop through the brummel, what if you ran the small loop behind the brummel and crossed through it in an X pattern, so that the small loop is pulling on both parts of the brummel, yet is kept in place by the brummel?
That's brilliant! I'll have to try that and see if I like it :) I might add some bulk though I suppose.
Thank you good sir❤
Have you done any videos on the sustainability of dyneema vs other materials? I know kevlar uses some pretty nasty substances and a lot of energy to make.
Not my area of expertise, but a few thoughts. It seems, if I have understood correctly, that the guts of the matter comes down to . . . Non-integrated soft shackles VS integrated soft shackles.
To my mind non-integrated seems to offer simplicity and versatility of equipment, whilst integrated seems incredibly complex, and wondering if that complexity will lead, in time, to manufacturing errors by someone not fully understanding the fine and many details, or overlooking something vital. The old adage, 'KISS keep it simple stupid,' comes to mind.
I appreciate in the field that one specialized item might be very useful. And appreciate how interesting all these options are.
Great work. Hope helps. Any thoughts?
I think this is very valid, and I'll be picky where to use these. What I have been doing up until now is to make a normal eye-splice, and take a normal soft shackle, thread the shackle in the eye quite close to the knot, and seize it in place with a waxed twine. This is almost as elegant I feel, more flexible, and arguably safer in the sense you mention that there is just less going on and less opportunity to make mistakes. I'll probably use these for terminating halyards though for example, where you really want a very permanent shackle at the end.
@@JOHANDOMEIJ image useful so an extra item is not dropped overboard.
Hi! I wonder if you ever tested how strong is the connection of two ropes without knots. I don’t know what is the name of the technique used to do it, but I know it is used to connect the steel cable that holds chiairlifts or cableways. Great video btw!!
I have to admit, I thought the type 2 would be far weaker for sure. Interesting to see that over the three tests, it actually performed better than the type 1.
If you had the money to burn, would splicing the tails tip to tip (each tail buried half the finished length, so that they meet in the middle) be the strongest? Since there wouldn't be a diameter change.
And as always, awesome vid 👍
hey Ryan, any chance you would make a video replacing a cam sling with this kind of dyneema cord spliced end to end into an extendable sling configuration?
i wonder if the 6mm cord would weaken the steel cable more than the oem slings...
I wonder if using the drums, to test the breaking strength of the dyneema, would show different results than splicing?
That could make for a good video. I'll be able to control rate of pull soon and see how much that affects it too.
Could you test a black Diamond atc pilot
So with separate soft shackle you get around 13 kN MBS with integrated ~ 10 kN
Why to consider integrated?
I know I'm going to feel like a goober when someone answers this but how do you do locked eyes on opposite ends of a piece of hollow cord? Brummeling the first eye is text book simple, tapper and bury the end. But what do you do on the second eye?
Isn't it the same?
IMO it would be nice to see an example how and when to use (or not use) some of the presented variation.
Right know I do not know the usage of this example
So I'm primarily a sailor, and will use these for terminating halyards for example, where you really want a very permanent shackle. I concede that this is pretty nisch though :)
Can you pull excell dingy racing control line 6mm? Very enjoyable videos
What if you spliced on rope entirely inside another and then formed each side of a soft shackle from one on the ropes with the ends spliced back in?
You mean so that there are three ends sticking out of the main rope, two for the loop and two for the knot? I thought of that too, but ultimately I could never get the three parts to sit nicely inside the main rope. It's just too bulky. I'd love to see your attempt though, maybe I missed something obvious!
Ghost video that doesn't show up anywhere but the Amsteel/Dyneema playlist. Says its two weeks old, as of may tenth 2023.
Now a proper upload
10:19 - When that splice gives up the ghost, it will certainly cause the tail to pop out. Why? Simply because that brummel splice is the tough guy holding the tail in place. If that splice breaks, it can't do its job anymore and the tail can slip out.
The finger trap effect can hold it at full strength even without the brummel. Weird, but true. This "bury splice" is what they do for official test samples.
Don't think you need 100 samples to be statistically significant. It I recall it's some weird number like 27.
For science
❤
Fascinating, thank you!
Reminds me of the freedom winch line by bleepin jeep, it would be cool to see some off road equipment break tests sometime. Maybe you can collaborate with someone.
Type 1 guess in the brummle. No good reason other than it’s a brummle
Yes please
And now... I still don't understand this silly space string! It's really cool though, and its given me some interesting ideas.
Matts Offroad Recovery uses a winch line that looks like that but without the brummel? made by freedom winch lines. maybe a collaboration? exposing the limitations of the gear he uses for his edification as well as ours?
A few companies are doing this for winch lines for offroad vehicles. Edit: should have waited a few seconds to comment :)
My guess... in the brummel.
If you do any of these tests for the first time in a life supporting situation, you could technically take only 1 result to the grave🤣
You only need 1 bad sample to go to the grave.
We need breaktesting of eldrid aramid 6mm! Spoc/trax/equivelant de-sheathing. Shockloads and slow pulls with knots.