My Last Lore Theory Before Elden Ring's Shadow of the Erdtree DLC Releases
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
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The conversation with Cactus:
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Hey everyone. I've struggled with making this video for a long time because it requires a lot of recontextualizing of the Japanese text of Elden Ring to make sense. I've definitely talked around the topic a few times in my other videos, but I haven't addressed exactly how I imagined the Crucible being the Erdtree really fits together because it would potentially detract too much from other points in my previous videos.
But now with Shadow of the Erdtree on the horizon, I figure I have to unleash my last tinfoil, crackpot lore theory onto the world for posterity's sake.
If you're playing lore bingo, you'll almost certainly succeed since I mention all the usual suspects: Japanese text, English comparisons, Marika, Radagon, the Gloam Eyed Queen, Destined Death, etc.
I originally wanted this video to be longer and wanted to speak more on the whole Greattree debacle and how we're told the Erdtree was born during the War Against the Giants, but so many leaks surfacing, I had to cut things short and scramble to get this done. I hope you enjoy it regardless.
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Link to my Japanese to English Retranslations of Bloodborne and assorted Dark Souls text:
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0:00 - Intro & Disclaimers
2:20 - The Crucible is the Erdtree
12:30 - Credits 
Игры
My dumb self just finally realized why there are so many broken jars around the minor erd trees. They bring the bodies/blood to water the trees. Then the avatar cracks them open with the giant hammer/icon, to make the tree grow strong.
Been saying this same thing for months to people. When Messemer says, "why would you impart lordship on one so bereft of grace" he is talking about Godfrey!
Nah we was saying it to the tarnished
Yeah I think this is as close to 100% correct as anything on this subject could be. I think in English we've at times referred to this as the "Great Tree", but really we should be calling it "The Crucible" and understanding it as a tree from which many sprouts grew, one of which became the Erdtree. I suspect the sealing of the shadow realms happens around the same time as Radagon's ascension to Elden Lordship. Marika's Golden Order is a perfection of the Crucible into the Erdtree, as well as a perfection of the many different cultures and practices in the Land's Between into her one single Order. History being rewritten at a metaphysical level by the victors.
Yes this is what it’s all about. The “order” can only emerge from a mountain of history and violence.
“A crown is warranted with strength” - Godfrey
Something I recently reinterpreted was the word “blended” in “all life was once blended together”.
The word can be used in two different ways that mean wholly different things. Life can be “blended” as a state of being, or life can be “blended” as an action. What I mean is, was life “just blended together” or did someone/something BLEND life together.
After all, if all life “started off” blended, how is there distinctions at all? Why are horns, feathers, tree knots, etc associated with a “primordial” life?
It WAS a “soup”, but there HAD to be distinct life before the Crucible for it to have specific aspects to it at all.
Further, I think one of the biggest confusions is the association between the Crucible and the “One Great”.
I believe they are not associated. I believe the Crucible is a tree, and the One Great is literally “nothing” or “void” or “space” or “emptiness”. The Greater Will’s mistake was creating SOMETHING out of nothing. That’s why Chaos’s ultimate goal is to destroy EVERYTHING to get back to “the one great”.
I always kinda thought this. The Erdtree is what Forges the Elden Ring. A Crucible is used to melt things down to forge them. I assume there is an anvil inside where Radagon was trying to mend it when he was banging on it. The tree probably needs to be burned like the Paints in DarkSouls. To cast off the current Era, and reforge a new one. The Alien Parasite usurped this, and tried to get rid of death and ban fire. It wanted to rule forever like Gwyn the Golden Lord of light, to not have his Era fall.
This makes sense and fits with the more recent theorization that the Erdtree and the Elden Ring are unique to the lands between, having perpetuated an unknown number of cycles of death & rebirth through Elden Lords. I like the idea that the Erdtree/Elden Ring even symbolizes life or is the source of life since it plays on the alchemy influences, and that the "Greater Will" is one of these cosmic forces like Astel that came from outside to usurp its power, rather than being the source of life in The Lands Between.
This could explain why Empyreans are born in the first place as they are necessary in the cycle. The "crucible" and the Erdtree are the same thing, just different eras nomenclature for it. New "Gods" rise and fall, the Erdtree not caring who or what they were as long as they brought order by forging an Elden Ring through it. Taking into account the endings where you reforge the ring with vastly different ideals than the Golden Order, the different versions of the Elden Ring we see in Farum Azula and item descriptions, and the symbolism in the new trailer, the one constant in the Lands Between seems to be the Elden Ring and the Erdtree being the vessel through which order arises. Marika put a stop to that cycle by reforging the Elden Ring with the rune of death excluded, and she did some pretty horrific things to create the Golden Order.
What I'm *really* curious about is when exactly the "Greater Will" came into the picture if it is independent of the Erdtree, and how it influenced Marika early on as it is the source of her power. I don't believe the Elden Beast was the source of all life in TLB, but Numens, perhaps? The "outsiders from a different land"? Can't wait for this DLC...
@@JC-Alan I feel like Marika was doing what the Greater Will wanted. Realized it was an alien outer god parasite, then started taking measures to kill it. It's why she remains crucified and motionless inside the tree, and why all the Tarnished were called back. The Elden Beast is the avatar of the greater will Outer God. That's why when you defeat the current Elden Lord, Radagon, it still resists and wants to keep you from ending it's Era. It wields Radagon (and thereby Marika) as a tool.
@@JKurayami I think you’re right. Early on I didn’t find Marika as compelling, but I can see why Miyazaki is emphasizing that the DLC will focus in large parts on her story. This brought her from generic (IMO, beyond the Radagon stuff) to arguably the most interesting character in the lore. The visceral imagery of her standing atop a mountain of corpses calls back to the fears of the Precambrian mind, the type of themes that were rampant in Bloodborne. I honestly want some of that Miyazaki/GRRM pack cause the shit they be smoking got me trippin’.
@@JKurayamiThe Greater Will and its Elden Ring are necessary for the existence of life in the world. The Greater Will is not a parasite; this is an old theory already refuted.
@@JC-Alan one thing thats constantly up for question is whether the tree before the erdtree was another erdtree, or another type of Great tree. Based on in game text descriptions it makes it seem like the first erdtree ever was with marika. When the greater will entered the picture exactly is something i constantly go back and forth with myself. the way the game describes the elden lord makes it seem inherently tied to the greater will itself, as the god of the age becomes the physical vessel for the greater will. With placidusax and farum azula, we can see the traidition dates far back. This most recent incarnation of the cycle seems to be different in the sense that the actual elden beast that became the ring that inhabited marika is much more parasitic than previous forms. Marika seems to be the first time the rune of death was removed, and all life was basically rerouted to cycle constantly through the erdtree for the benefit of the greater will. Omens, misbegotten, and demihumans souls do not return to the erdtree. I think the society that marika usurped with the greater will was one of omens and a people of that ilk, and their existence, just like the fire, is a threat to the erdtree because it does not assimilate
This was always my headcanon. It just makes sense for the Erdtree's precursor to also be a tree. The whole blending of life thing just sounds like what the Erdtree does in taking in the dead, but the Erdtree keeps them separate without blending them.
I've seen theories that the Crucible was cut down and the Erdtree grafted on top of its trunk. I'm not sure there's a lot of evidence other than Erdtree roots being of a different type of tree, but it would explain why grafting is a major part of the story.
I'm Just about half of the vídeo but i think you got really invested on the use of the word primordial, primordial don't need to be from the begining of time, just mean something at the start of something like a long time ago, the use of the word primordial don't contracdicts with your vision
You're right, however, the term "primordial soup" is used in the common parlance, so when the game introduces "primordial matter" that becomes the Erdtree and the general connotations of a crucible acting as a "melting pot," it tends to lead people toward that kind of conclusion regardless of how else primordial can be defined.
@@LastProtagonist i just think that the age of the erdtree is way older than people think, most people only assume it to be a 1000 year or so, but the word Marika's use to discribe her age is Epoch which is a really long time, other thing thanks to the discription of the hammer used on the war with the Giants we know that it was so long ago that humans evolved to be smaller, and this is consistent because morgoth son of hoarah loux the primary exemple of a human of that age uses the same hammer as projections and the hammer proposions are smaller in comparation to him.
@@lulute8epoch sound like the right amount is time to grow a 4km tall tree. 😅
@@whoisj Epoch are normaly a couple milions of years, which is crazy to think that the Golden order existed for that long that would make their claim of eternal a lot more valid, but is also possible that the previous age before the erdtree lasted a Epoch and now as it ends a new Epoch starts, but considering humans changed i still thinking the erdtree is at least between 10.000 and 30.000 years old as i think is time enough in fantasy land to evolution happen
@@lulute8 Also remember this is a From Soft game, people can grow to large sizes if they've got a lot of life juice or power. In Dark Souls, you got really big if you had a lot of Souls, the same could be argued for runes in Elden Ring. The giant-crusher hammer doesn't specifically say humans evolved to be smaller, it says humans aren't as strong as their forebears. That could mean a number of things, but a point that's consistently emphasized is that the Crucible was an era of strength and competition, while the Golden Order is a world without death or strife so people are weaker. That's Marika's whole point with the Tarnished, that we'll grow strong through death outside the Lands Between.
The ancient architecture we see that predates the Erdtree corresponds with real world cultures, and so I think people take those inspirations and they take the parallels between events/cultures in the game and our world to create a pseudo timeline for the Lands Between.
I think 10,000 years is on the upper end of believable for the Golden Order. That's enough to be mythic but still small enough to allow other preexisting human cultures some breathing room. One thing that sticks out to me is the description of the era of the ancient dragons as "prehistoric." If the Golden Order lasted millions of years, you'd think the Golden Order would also be prehistoric, since I can't imagine records being kept for that long.
I have one take, if I may, that’s heavily based off this video: I think the “Omen” traits that we see in the Shadow Land’s creatures aren’t from Omens, per say. I think these creatures were added to the soup that was the flesh pile Marika used to feed the Erdtree, and their traits became Omen traits.
Basically, Shadowland creatures + Erdtree = certain people being born with their traits, and being called Omens. And think about it: anyone that wasn’t Marika or Messmer would’ve just thought “oh, it’s Crucible traits, that’s great!”, and over time they became less worshipped. In reality, these traits are proof that Marika desecrated these lands, used their native creatures as fertilizer, and now their traits like horns or lots of fangs became something of a recessive trait.
Plus, it would explain why Marika’s twins were despised immediately from birth; there’s no evidence of social changes that made them go from being respected to hated, they’ve been hated since birth, which is kinda weird if they’re the kids closest to the Crucible Era, which is associated with Godfrey (who didn’t seem to care that his sons were Omens). However, Marika despised these traits cause she tried to erase it all, so she locked her twins away, ensuring they would never be seen again, and never show the proof of Marika’s terrible misdeeds.
I always thought of the crucible being a seed, because the old elden ring in farum azula looks like it has roots as part of it's design and since my mom liked watching me play over discord and she being an FFA agriculture teacher, she said it's a seed because seeds put out roots first before forming a more structured lattice in the form of a steam and leaves like how radaghan's rune looks like with the ridged criss-cross pattern
Also ginko seeds are reddish/redder than the bright yellow leaves of a ginko tree, which is my mom's favorite tree and...looking at pictures of ginko trees, they look very similar in how they grow to the minor erd trees
Great video.
This proposed time line does explain why some of the fire monks become black flame monks in a time when most people think the black flame has lost its power.
One thing that comes to mind that I don't understand is why would the Omen, who were once seen as divine be locked away in the sewer during the age of the crucible
Yes i think thats a big one that contradicts this video.
If I recall correctly, the omen can’t be absorbed into the Erdtree because their blood burns it or something like that.
They were born "graceless," and grace may be meant to return to the Erdtree, but we don't know why exactly they're shunned beyond Omen horns being used to curse individuals and keep their spirits away from the Erdtree
Depending on Miya's interview, the Omen may be pre-Erdtree, but if the Erdtree grows via war, conquest, and Erdtree burial, then being cursed by the Omens' blood may make it so that peoples' souls can't "return" to the Erdtree and continue feeding it.
If you can't kill the Omen without fear of becoming cursed yourself, then the next best thing one could do would be to quarantine them, I guess. Maybe that'll tie into why the Shadowlands were veiled. Idk.
@@LastProtagonist hmm the quarantine line makes logical sense. What if the omen turn out to be mofos? The shot we see of the piles of corpses in the trailer for SoTET has tons of bodies and none of them are omen I think, or maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough.
All this omen stuff got me thinking just now… every demigod has a curse of some sort.
What is Marikas curse?
She can’t be the exception, right? Because it seems like the runes themselves turn the demigods into “monsters” - what is her curse and her power? She seems to be the one to control grace.
I guess we’ll only know once the DLC is out.
Also interesting how Miquella, of all the demigods, is the one to really follow in Marikas footsteps to try to become a god. Since miquella has that whole duality vibe like Marika it seems like they are the most Marika-like character in the game. They are also master manipulators and cloud their true intentions and identities.
Anyway, I’m rambling now. Cheers!
I do agree. I've thought a lot of this for a while. I had assumed the red that is often mentioned in descriptions of gold ("gold is tinged with red", etc.) is from the blood of all those that were sacrificed to feed the tree. Especially with the catacombs, and even moreso with how Miquellla tried to grow his own. Importantly, Miquella was trying to feed an already 'created' Erdtree in the form of a seed, not one that was entirely generated from what I had thought was Godfrey's conquering of the lands between, the bodies from that conquest is the literal blending of life.
Since seeing the story trailer I'm more confident in this, though with some changes. You can see an Erdtree shaped pile of bodies, "Life blended together". It may have been instead Messmer's conquest that created the harvest to make gold. Love the ideas, and I love how literal it always seemed to be.
There's a lot of references to coppicing trees as well. One thing that stands out pretty intensely is the fact that the Sundered tree in the DLC trailer has 2 parts and leans to one side... While the Erdtree leans to the other, almost as if only 1 of the 3 branches was nurtured and continued to be encouraged to grow.
Granted I've always considered the possibility that when Marika removed the rune of destined death - rot and blood were also cast out / impacted due to the connection to death. My brain wants to associate the red of the crucible as a reference to blood as well. But that has a lot less basis as the demigods certainly have blood, considering Miquella was watering the Haligtree with his. So many things in the lands between look bloodless and desiccated though.
Your not wrong as the “rune of death” is likely to be the “rune of fire” and so this all tracks, especially when you consider that fires common imagery is in death and death based rituals, we even cremate our dead today it’s so common, the red is probably linked to blood sure, but more of mortality in general, due to this I have always called black flames dot effect “mortal burns”
@@samuelbrown7466 That does make some sense, but wouldn't Destined Death do Fire damage instead of Holy damage if it were true?
@@Solibrae of course it would do holy, it’s red gold, the holy flame, these wouldn’t conflict with fire or holy, being as it is literally both right? I think the trailer shows above all else, how rare the holy golden element used to be, yet it’s influence is enough to change something’s nature even before the age of gold
@@samuelbrown7466 It's true that they must be connected because Fire and Holy damage can both scale off Faith, and many Golden Order prophets receive visions of the Erdtree burning. It would be cool if there's a unique weapon that has both Fire and Holy damage in the DLC.
@@Solibrae so more godslayer great swords? Yes that would be awesome, but on a lore note I want a tri scaling weapon, why not all the full red gold trinity and make it lightning fire and holy? Way I see it a holy lightning weapon and holy fire weapon will already happen, a trinity faith weapon not so much
The crucible is where the seed of the Erd Tree germinated into what we know but we learn that this requires blood and sacrifice because Miquella tries to recreate the same, so would he also be tapping into the crucible? There are a lot of beastmen hanging out in Miquellas tree
Perhaps the red gold is like yhe blood mixed with gold; perhaps this adds a bit of context to Miquella's concept of unalloyed gold, or 24k
14k and 10k karat gold have been mixed with another metal to create an alloy, so miquella was trying to increase the purity of the erd tree in a sense that did not require the death of thousands, but rather, just himself
Maybe Marika was more like blood but stole the gold in that brief scene and she used the elden ring to manifest the erd tree by becoming possessed by the elden beast that was the seed of the erd tree. The entire story is about a family tree haha
Nah, the erdtree was grafted onto the top of the crucible. The tops of the crucible knights helmets and siluria's spear illustrate what the crucible looked like. The question is, what did each branch specifically relate to? Was one for the fire giants, one for the dragons, and one for the gloam eyed queen?
@@augustgurtisen The Crucible wouldn't be the origin of the Erdtree if the Erdtree already existed then was grafted onto it. The bladed parts of Siluria's Tree are even reminiscent of the rising trunk and the two horizontal branches seen on the Erdtree sigils for incantations.
The more I look and think of the lore. The colors red and gold come up so much. Especially with the erdtree and the crucible. The omen twins, Marika and radagon. Its very interesting!! Good theory
I appreciate how thorough you were in establishing Cactus' skills and in providing the transcript! Also, that tracking shot of the Crucible Knight fighting the beastmen was amazing! I agree that the Crucible is the Erdtree, and you made a great argument for that being the case.
As to the timing of the Rune of Death's removal, I think it long predated Radagon's reign. As one person noted in this comments section, Godfrey and his children were already called the "golden lineage." This term seems to be derived from the name of Marika's civilization, the Golden Order, and Radagon might not have even been created until just before the Liurnian Wars. Additionally, the Telescope's description laments that Carian astrology withered on the vine in the age of the Erdtree, and then elaborates that the fates from the stars were fettered by the Golden Order. This seems to imply that the age of the Erdtree describes the entire period of Marika's reign, rather than the era before Radagon became the second Elden Lord.
As for Radagon's rune, I don't think he created it before Marika shattered the Elden Ring. From what we can see in the game, creating/manifesting a Mending Rune seems to be an arduous process that takes a severe toll on the person conducting the task. We know that Radagon doesn't die from creating his rune, and he also doesn't seem to become weakened or injured in the story until Marika shatters the Elden Ring and the Elden Beast punishes her, harm that can be attributed to Marika and the Elden Beast respectively. The rune Radagon creates seems to be made from the Elden Ring's own debris, repurposing its fragments in a desperate attempt to keep the overall Elden Ring intact.
Radagon's rune is absent when the Elden Ring is mended, as though the shards can finally return to their proper places thanks to the restoration of the missing sections of the Great Runes. If Radagon truly added onto the Elden Ring, his rune might still remain in this situation. I think Radagon tried to create a personal symbol based on Raya Lucaria's magical gates to portray himself as a support and bulwark for the Golden Order, ultimately having to create a literal support for the Elden Ring and bulwark for the Erdtree later on.
I don't think Ordovis' Greatsword has a typo in the Japanese text. However, I believe a possible way to assess the likelihood of a typo might lie in analyzing the Japanese text for the Staff of the Avatar and the Rotten Staff. In both the English text of Elden Ring and a quick Google translation of the Japanese text, the Staff of the Avatar and the Rotten Staff are described as depicting the Erdtree, even though the latter seems to instead depict the Haligtree. If the Japanese text is similar to what's written for Ordovis' Greatsword, a certain term might be more likely than others to have a typo.
Regarding the Erdtree being perfect and eternal, I think the item descriptions are telling us that this was the initial view of the Erdtree but hasn't been the public's stance on it for a long time, dating back to well before the Shattering. Such a notion might not even be accurate, as the only thing that's noted as making people change their minds is the fact that the Erdtree produced seeds, basically having children.
In contrast, the people never doubt that Marika is "the Eternal" despite her having plenty of children. It's possible that the Erdtree just has fruiting seasons, or Marika was overharvesting it in the first place and had to back off. Because Golden Rune [6] says that those born at the foot of the Erdtree are considered to be particularly blessed in Leyndell's culture, perhaps the nobility of Leyndell is trying to downplay the Erdtree's importance. If every region of the Lands Between might one day have fully-grown Erdtrees, the denizens of the capital can't continue acting like they're uniquely blessed unless they prioritize a proximity to Marika instead.
Thanks for the great video, Protag!
11:04 I don't think Radagon's Soreseal in Elden Ring represents his influence as Elden Lord at that time.
I made a video about Radagon and made this point: there is substantial evidence that Radagon was a smith and seamster (and plus the cross-hatch pattern of Radagon reminiscent of the cross-hatch sewing technique). Based on Marika's Hammer description: 'Radagon attempted to repair the Elden Ring'-Radagon successfully repaired the Elden Ring. It's still functioning. it's now only partially broken. We know the Elden Ring is partially working because we are still immortal as Tarnished, the grace is working just fine.
So, I believe this cross-hatch pattern in Elden Ring is just a technique that Radagon uses to craft things. We see a similar pattern on the Golden Order Greatsword, one of his works.
We've never seen the Elden Ring depicted with this cross-hatch pattern in older depictions (on sigils or on the Erdtree's door)
I wasn't trying to that his Elden Rune is a reflection of his Lordship, but the other way around. He first would have had his rune and then integrated it into the ring _when_ he became Elden Lord.
We don't see the cross-hatch pattern on the sigils for GO Fundamentalism, but we see it in GO Fundamentalist spells like Litany of Proper Death which is supposed to depict an image of Order. I don't believe Radagon's rune was incorporated into the ring with the Shattering--the statues of Radagon throughout TLB show the rune behind him, but they were probably constructed pre-Shattering.
And as you pointed out, the rune does show up in the GO Greatsword. This signifies to me it was part of (the) Golden Order (Fundamentalism) upon its creation.
Looking at the lineage of Marika's children and how every child of her is cursed with different afflictions, shows me that at the beginning of her Ascension to godhud, she did something Blasphemous (betrayal etc) in order to get the create the elden ring(runes). From then, her self spit in two and created Radagon, maybe through her "death" or numen origin. Radagon lineage with Rennala have presumably normal kids. So, I tend to think that the original primordial tree is maybe closely related to the plasphemous/god devouring serpent that melted a couple of life forces together (crucible, omen etc) and then when Marika forcefully took power maybe through some blood sacrifice, or curse she herself carried this burden and haunted her as a sign of what she did at the beginning, making fucked up kids and he, herself then splitting in two
For what u r saying, it makes me think that then, maybe Marika is the lady of the painting that's standing next to the old man. Maybe she was pregnant with Godwyn there? Since Godwyn didn't have any curses and maybe that's why they sacrifice him? 🤯
Hey Last Protagonist!!! I just saw that you popped into one of my favorite channels, Trae Irby’s livestream while I was also in there. But I didn’t even realize you were there at all until afterward! That is really cool to see, and I really enjoy your content as well. Can’t wait to see what you’ve got in store coming up. :)
Such a good video, you are truly one of the GOATs. This take upends the conventional understandings without delving into schitzo territory. I can’t wait to see what the DLC reveals.
Isnt that what the crucible is by definition in game?
Feeling like I missed something reading the comments.
This makes a lot of sense. All life is blended together because they all start and end in a perfect circle of life. As soon as Marika removes Destined Death of the Elden Ring, no longer the cycles of Death and Rebirth can resume. Godfrey still finished the conquest, but was divested of Grace soon after. This problem is somewhat mitigated by reabsorbing life and memories into the Erdtree. “Only death can pay for life”, only blood of Marika’s contest allowed her to ascend to Godhood - all blood, but mainly the blood of whom she betrayed.
Far from contradicting established lore, this seems entirely in line with what most of the dedicated lore analysts have been saying for a while.
I've been reacting to a ton of other lore creators' content on stream over the past few months, and this is simply not true from what I've seen
@@LastProtagonist Probably exposure bias on my part then, as I’m sure you’ve been reacting to a lot more and more varied creators than I am. But, your take seems right in line with those of the lore RUclipsrs I watch - Quaelaag, Tarnished Archeologist, VaatiVidya. They tend to dive pretty deep, and all seem to agree the crucible was the version of the Erdtree worshipped in Godfrey’s era. The evidence for it is pretty overwhelming, the idea that the crucible was “primordial” in the sense of being the origin of all life seems based on a very shallow interpretation of a few lines of text and ignoring their broader context.
@@willowparker-ct3pq Appreciate it!
Thank you for presenting your thoughts with such careful attention to being clear about where your reasoning was coming from
Love. Great final video before ALL is revealed…
Born of the lore, made men by the lore, undone by the lore
Interesting, and great theory! This makes the change of Elden Lords actually mean something, and make sense why the Crucible Knights served Godfrey.
Have you seen Tarnished Archaeologist's vid on this? He proposes Great Tree (conifer tree) > Burned > roots still exist, and new trees are grafted onto the stump > Crucible > other trees (factions) are pruned by the golden order > Erdtree
He has lots of in game evidence to back it up.
LP seems to very much not agree with a lot of TA's work... even though this video is basically just a repeat of a lot of things TA said over a year ago...... haha
The Crucible wouldn't really be the "origin" of the Erdtree if they were two separate things and the Erdtree was grafted onto the former. Also, the statue of a monk standing among several branches actually features an even larger flower on the central sprout than what's seen with the statues of the single sprouts, implying that the multi-branch era came later rather than earlier.
I disagree with the premise that the Erdtree comes from the Crucible in a developmental sense. I am saying that the Crucible *is* the Erdtree, and it shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as the Erdtree's "seed" or "roots." The difference between what we call the Erdtree now vs. how it existed as the "Crucible" was probably due to tampering with the Elden Ring.
@@LastProtagonist No one is saying the Crucible is just the roots or seed of the Erdtree. The crucible likley had lots of trees/shrubs growing. Over time the Erdtree evolved with the Crucible, but ultimately was last tree standing.
I agree destined death was likely not removed until after the age of plenty. Once this happened, the real wood Erdtree was burned down (probably by the dragon in the capital). Now the Erdtree is a projection of faith by those with Grace.
@@useruseruser501idk, it's feeling a lot like big scary fire guy Messmer was the one to burn the great tree on behalf of Marika and usher in her new age. Maybe that's even the tie in with Melina, who was burned before. Instead of the giants flame he used his own.
Question. If the Golden Order didn't exist until Radagon, why is Godfrey and his descendants called "The Golden Lineage"?
Good question. The Erdtree is called the "Gold(en) Tree" in Japanese. According to Miriel's dialogue, Radagon conjoined the "Order of the Erdtree" with the "fate of the moon," so I think there's a good chance the Golden Order came later in the timeline than the "golden lineage" of Godfrey. But I agree the naming conventions are confusing
@@LastProtagonist I'd never even thought that the Golden Order may not have been formed until Radagon became elden lord until I heard you talk about it.
So, is the "Golden Order" just the name they gave the era after removing the rune of death? Did Marika, or anyone, else call out the preceding era by name? 🤔 I'm sure you've spent a lot more time looking through all the evidence of the order (hehe) of events to back up the timeline.
@@LastProtagonist Oh! Sorry! Haha. "Order of the Erdtree". You said it in the reply. 😅
The producer mentioned that the land of shadows will be entered by warp gameplay wise but lore wise he said it was severed from the lands between when it was concealed by Marika's veils. And a description found in the recent preview mentions a divine gate where empyreans ascend to godhood. So there is a divine bridge that is broken in Leyndell and the land of shadow could potentially be hidden just south of the Erdtree where the bridge connected to the divine gate. There are also buildings reminiscent of Leyndell in the story trailer so perhaps there is a portion of Leyndell in the land of shadow that was severed. There are also hints that an Eternal City is there which could be where Marika's true seat of power lies since her title is "The Eternal" and she's numen like the Black Knife Assassins who were scions of the Eternal Cities and had close ties with her.
Haven’t watched yet but the video thumbnail made me realize that the golden space Marika is standing in looks similar to the Memory of Grace/Site of Grace.
A few things: that scene you're referencing from the story trailer is out of Berserk, it's just foreshadowing of Marika and the bodies she literally walked over to become a god. Miquella will follow this same path. Secondly, smithing stone 8 tells us: "Stone used to smith a variety of armaments. Found in a polar region, it is semi-vitrified. Strengthens armaments up to +24. Thought to have been used to hone the weapons of the champions of the War against the Giants at the birth of the Erdtree." This means the Erdtree didn't exist until AFTER the War Against the Giants. The Sword Monument tells us the same thing: "The War against the Giants Champions battle, trolls betray Fire vanquished, the era of the Erdtree begins" Personally, and it's just a theory, one tree needs to burn for the next "age" to begin. They are not the same tree.
I believe it's possible the Erdtree is supposed to be a pyrophite--a kind of tree that uses fire to reproduce--and that even if it were to burn, it may not truly "die." This seems to be the case with Destined Death as well. As such, I'd argue that the Crucible is meant to be indistinguishable from the Erdtree, and the only reason it may have changed would be because of the removal of the Rune of Death to make it "perfect" and "eternal"
Hey LP! I had no idea you had a whole RUclips channel. This is a great video, and I really enjoyed watching and learning your perspective on this topic! 😊
Nice! I've been considering this chain/order of the events as well for some time, especially how the banishment and death of Godfrey would work with the lack of Death.
The siluria's tree description always made me think this and I think other yourubers have discussed this theory before, though I don't remember who.
I wonder if the crucible with the red tinge is the bodies Marika is stepping on in the story trailer.
The English translators at least kept their use of "primordial" consistent with the Japanese usage of Gensho (原初), which in my head can still mean the same thing, even if the timeline implications are a little off. Regardless of when it actually happened, the "origin" of the Erdtree is a literal blending of all different life forms being fed into its roots. The word "primordial" could also evoke a sense of violence or barbarism that predated civilized society... and that kinda rings true if the Erdtree was indeed made with the bodies of flayed sacrifices. Obviously such a fact would need to be kept secret for the purposes of preserving the clean image of Marika's new kingdom.
Also... it just hit me how disturbing it is that, when blessings would fall from the Erdtree and people accepted them, perhaps even drank them as the goblets suggest... they'd be drinking the literal blood, flesh and bones of their ancestors, subsumed by the Erdtree and turned into sap to bless the next generation of faithful...
Something I've never seen anyone talk about before is that there is no difference between life and death in the lands between, the biggest proof of that is that a lot of crucible item description says how the red of redgold is close to life it self, red lightning is close to life and so on but at the same time the rune of death is red, ghost flame was supposedly purple and lost its rue upon removal of rune of death, ancestral spirit antler says life sprouts from death, rot/poison stuff talks about death and rebirth, to me all this just means life from death and death from life, if something is alive is because it is going to die and if something is dead is because it was alive at some point, in few words destined death is the rune of life and death, when Marika plucked it she sealed not only death but life as well, as of in what condition are the people in the lands between I have no idea ,but they don't have life nor seen to be alive.
good video! Completely agree with the alternate interpretation to 'primordial' as i kinda thought it was less objective and more primordial from the perspective of the current society. my reasoning being that the existence of the dragons and farum azula also has a depicted elden ring, and dragons in darksouls came before everything else. Its fascinating how many interpretations of timelines there can be while the games lore remains so immmersive and expansive.
Godfrey being elden lord during the time of the crucible would make sense since morgott and mogh would of been considered blessed/holy during that time having omen horns/tail. I saw an interesting video that Godwyn may not be a child of Godfrey and could have relations to the time of the dragons or something i forget the video but it was an interesting theory.
I actually made a comment in a different video where I came to the same conclusion. I even go a step further and offered that Marika's banishment of the Godfrey and the tarnished was likely due to their opposition to removing death as they were/are a warrior people. Erdtree burial I offer was a practice that largely ceased after Godfrey was gone because people didn't die anymore in the Lands Between. Erdtree burial came back into vogue in the wake of the Night of Black Knives after the ritual was performed on Godwyn but because the Elden Ring also lacked the Rune of the Unborn at this point the tree could not revive him or anyone killed by Destined Death, not to mention he is still technically alive.
(Shouldn't Godwyn just die once we unleash Destined Death? There is no way his body, once mortal could survive the trauma it has experienced. For that matter, wouldn't the Scarlot Rot eventually stop being a problem because the afflicted would just die instead of melting or turning into bugs? Are all the Land Between's problems rooted in the founding of the Golden Order?)
I tend to agree, my only problem is what this means for the frenzied flame shit. It would completely change what they really mean
i belive the order/chaos stuff like the one great comes way before the events of the game more like an creation myth kind of thing
The “no war in Ba Sing Se” part killed me 😂
I'm not going to lie, nothing you've told me so far seems new to me; I already believed in that.
Except what was said in the sword of Ordovis, to which I am with you because it makes some sense that way.
Regarding the godskin apostles, I believe that when they are called similar to the crucible, it is implied that they are alien to it; so they could have been prior to it.
And for me it was already obvious that the crucible was the erdtree when it was young or in its origins, and with a confirmed pre-erdtree era, then the crucible was automatically something non-primordial. The only thing I don't understand is why all life mixed, because aspects of different species that were well separated and differentiated were united.
Yoo smoughs been telling me to check you out for so long😂 glad my recommended finally got me here.
Is it a coincidence that the crucibles are some of the most difficult non boss enemies in the game. And that the most difficult (malenia) is miquellas sister.
I believe Marika has hidden what the tree really looks like and used it as the base for power and this was the draw a sham
I never understood “primordial” to refer to the beginning of time. I always assumed the text to be at least clear that the crucible was original form OF the Erdtree. It blended all life together because all forms of life were accepted into its roots and maybe this produced a different growth.
i think a lot of people are getting confused in the comments bc this theory isn't really "The Crucible Is the Erdtree" but "The Crucible Was Turned Into Its Current Form Known As The Erdtree By Manipulating the Elden Ring". Admittedly this doesn't roll off the tongue as well. But people who don't want to watch a video (??) just see the title and go "yeah the crucible grew into the erdtree" even though that's not what you're saying.
Looks like, grace in the middle destined death in the crucible and the ghost flame governs the shadow realm is those given to death? Like a polar opposite to grace. The lands between where the tarnished are to contend with destined death. Philosophically speaking anyway.
This actually explains the omen twins quite well - they were born this way because at the time it was happening naturally.
this is an item description taken from vaatis recent video where he got to test the game, this kind of agrees with you but also opens more questions, insinuating it was possible that the erdtree and crucible powers were at war with eachother perhaps?
Andreas, Black Knight Commander Spirit Ashes
The black knights were the primary force of Messmers army. Their first leader was Andreas, a man endowed with great strength and command over the powers of the crucible, and whose spirit in these ashes dwells. Though he remained a devout follower of Messmer after his flight from the Erdtree, he would rebel after learning of his liege's serpentine nature. His righteous stand was rewarded with imprisonment in an underground tomb.
I think this is a pretty convincing theory. Thanks for sharing, LP!
very interesting video, do you think it would explain the way we think the erdtree was burned before? that when the crucible tree was supplanted by the golden order, the tree literally burned into the spectral golden form its in now
Honestly, with FromSoft's penchance to throw completely new details out there, I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if the burning of the Erdtree was a different event entirely.
@@LastProtagonist thats definitely true, they've done stuff like that a lot before. and the fact that mesmer has a flame like that and his method for war seems to be burning everything, that does seem like a likely candidate for it
Does beasts cowering in fear really contradict the idea that fear prevents beasthood? They've already become beasts, and it doesn't make sense to me that any fear they feel after succumbing to the plague would "cure" them, and of course that fear is justified in the case of encountering a hunter.
I think, The Great Tree & The Crucible are the same thing, The Erdtree is the golden bit and the greater will was allowing various factions to compete for which order will rule. It's why Godfrey has axe knights, he had to cut down the other trees.
This reminded me of how I got the impression there's a use of "primordial" going around that's rather weird (and not just in English either). I've seen it used as somewhat of a stand-in for "imperative" in close contextual ties with "fundamental", which is really unusual from my (millennial) perspective, though entirely within bounds definition-wise, as becomes apparent with the simplest search. Until very recently, to me, "primordial" referred to something in deep time, or otherwise greatly and distinctly removed from the present - not a characteristic of beings, unless said beings are embodying a characteristic that's already tied to a sense of deep time (hopefully this is worded properly enough). And I think this is what most of everyone is thinking the Crucible as, but the contrast drawn in the vid is rather irksome, since it's not reflected in JP.
In matters of timeline, in particular, this stuff is rather vexing. We want to separate Elden Ring from Crucible from Erdtree, and fixate these elements on their own before allowing them to interact across time, but this has proven rather difficult the moment we ask about the details. However, it will totally become clear in the DLC for real no joke.
The gate that Marika was entered is the Gate of Divinity
I love this take, honestly I think you nailed it
I believe the crucible is essentially the same as the golden order marika betrayed them and it's obvious the crucible had there own order thus where Godfrey came from
The Erd Tree is basically the burning bush God used to talk through to Moses. But if everyone else knew about the prophecy Moses received. They would’ve definitely worshipped it. 😂 Marika is basically Jesus, sacrificing herself for a greater purpose (that we don’t know yet) except the Greater Will doesn’t seem like it appreciated her action.
I think if people replaced “tree” with “algorithm” or “ideology,” they’d be able to understand the meaning of the game better.
Primordial, is also specifically used in biology as the earliest stage of development, which fits perfectly.
As is often the case, the obscure choice of wording seems completely intentional.
But this is part of the issue. I'm saying the Erdtree's change was not a product of natural development, and it was made to change later on via tampering with the Elden Ring.
@@LastProtagonistI'm trying to say that the ambiguity of its meaning completely aligns with your ideas re-timeline and was likely intentional - although I'm not sure what you mean by your comment?
"Origin of the Erdtree" to me is synonymous with "the primordial form of the Erdtree" and likewise the "primordial matter that became the Erdtree". In all cases it's referring to the matter which became the Erdtree as we know it.
I think it's also worth considering how Fromsoft's recurring theme of damnatio memoriae can apply here. Marika / the Golden Order seemingly want to erase the past, particularly in regards to the land of shadow and the culture there predating her rule.
So interpreting the primordial crucible as the "beginning of time" fits nicely with this narrative. It is the beginning of time as Marika wants you to see it. After all she is Marika "the Eternal" and he is Godfrey the "First" Elden Lord.
@@nebkyeverything makes so much sense now
I find it wild to suggest the idea of the Crucible being the previous form of the Erdtree is contentious. There is widespread misunderstanding of the Crucible and "primordial life", but I really don't think it has anything to do with the EN/JP script. The Crucible is the primordial form of the Erdtree, this is directly stated. It implying being its "original" or simply "previous" form makes very little difference in the way things are presented. Everything seems to point at the Crucible being the embodiment of the previous Order, just like the Erdtree is now. Or are you saying that people assume the Crucible was already long gone when the Erdtree came about ? This would hardly make sense to me given how prevalent the Crucible stuff still is, with Crucible Knights being loyal to Godfrey and still being very much around in the Lands Between.
There is no indication of any in-between Crucible era and Erdtree era, not in the sense of any defining moment. Of course we hear of an age of abundance, but always that it's ultimately short lived, so it simply marks the start of the Erdtree era. It would be more precise to say there is no indication of a passing of power in that period. Marika remains Goddess, even if it's clear that Radagon and her continue to tamper with the Order at some point. But ultimately we only ever see two representations of the Elden Ring, we only ever hear about a single other God of the Elden Ring (i.e Placidusax's). And while there could be room for more having existed, there is really no hint of it that we can see, nothing that suggests other eras having existed in between those two.
The more contentious point of the video to me is about the point in the timeline when the Rune of Death is removed. At this point I'm firmly in the camp of the GEQ having been the Goddess of the previous age, not simply another Empyrean that competed with Marika. This explains why the GEQ would have access to the Rune of Death at a point where it had seemingly not been removed yet, and also how come the Godskin Nobles are "not unlike the Crucible".
A frequent theory in the English fan base is that the Crucible is a separate "greattree" that the Erdtree was grafted to, hence why Last Protagonist is emphasizing that he thinks they're instead outright the same tree. It stems from a script issue where the Erdtree is only ever called the "golden tree" or the "great tree" in the Japanese text and English mistranslations with the Deathroot, Root Resin, and Deeproot Depths map.
I agree that the GEQ was probably overthrown earlier, since nothing implies Marika changed the name of her civilization once founding it, but I doubt that the GEQ was a god. An Empyrean appears to be a term for a potential god, not a reigning god, and the GEQ would have likely been associated with more things than just the Rune of Death and the god hunts if she wielded the entire Elden Ring. It is interesting that the GEQ had the Rune of Death at a time when Marika had other Great Runes though. I think this might have to do with whatever initially devastated Farum Azula and made Placidusax's god flee.
@@nightscout9979 Yeah I'm familiar with the Greattree discourse. It's a bit eyebrow raising all in all, and I agree they might not have really meant to denote the proper name of a single given tree, but I feel like there's still an argument to be made about how strange it is that they were not called Erdtree roots if they're meant to be just that. There is still an implication that those roots were there before the Erdtree, or at least are distinct from it, even in the Japanese text.
In that sense, the (pre)existence of a network of roots might still be related to the way things were being ran in the previous age (so, the Crucible's).
@@TheRealTetro I think the Japanese text for Deeproot Depths' map is trying to say that the Erdtree's roots reach down as far as possible and only then begin expanding outward across the continent. Also, since the Erdtree is interchangeably called the "golden tree" and the "great tree" in the Japanese text, the roots might indeed be called Erdtree roots.
People tend to look at Root Resin/Deeproot Depths map's descriptions in a vacuum, but if you check out the Prince of Death Pustule (I think, or the other one,) it says Godwyn was given Erdtree burial, which would put him at the roots of the Erdtree, so contextually they're seen as interchangeable to some degree
I would generally agree that the proposed timeline makes a lot of thematic sense, I have to question how it works while taking the following in consideration:
“The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death. The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..” - dialogue from Enia;
“They were conceived at the great Academy of Raya Lucaria, to the north of this castle. In the past, they obeyed laws which contravened the Golden Order, or so I'm told.
Fascinating, isn't it? That the Golden Order was pliable enough to absorb practices that contradicted itself in the past.” - dialogue from Rogier about the Ashes of War that he sells.
The two together basically say that the GO existed during Godfrey’s conquests, seeing how the traditions of Caria and the academy only became part of the Order with Radagon’s marriage. Do you see it as Rogier being misinformed?
Edit: iirc, there’s also a part of the Miyazaki interview from the “Overture of the Elden Ring” where he says that the Golden Order was ruled by two Lords and Godfrey was first of them. Will have to find it later
Edit 2: it wasn’t from the Overture, but from the EDGE interview: www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/rtz11y/edge_magazine_elden_ring_interview_in_full/
Yes. With Radagon ordering the Preceptors into silence with their Masks of Confidence, and the GO's most fervent adherents like Corhyn and Goldmask being unaware of its origins, I think Rogier was fed Golden Order propaganda, and Rogier pointing out it's what he's been "told" further cements the story as being hearsay.
I don't think the EDGE interview contradicts this timeline either: "In the sort of heyday of The Golden Order of the Lands Between there were two Elden Lords, and Godfrey was the first of these." Godfrey is the first "Elden Lord," not necessarily "First Elden Lord of the Golden Order."
I think the more problematic description for this theory is the Telescope tbh, which says: "During the age of the Erdtree, Carian astrology withered on the vine. The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the Golden Order." With Radagon essentially being called "Golden Order, Radagon" though, I think we can still headcanon that if he represents the GO, there isn't a complete contradiction here, and it's also curious that it mentions the "Age of the Erdtree." Others think the GO fettering the stars could be when Radahn challenges them. º𐑧㋛𐑨º
@@LastProtagonist With every new addition and explanation, the lore becomes more twisted and deformed. Surely, the DLC will fix it, right? Right?
On a serious note, I have been thinking a lot about the accuracy Rogier’s dialogue (especially as far as it concerns the Black Knives). While I’m a little on the fence about saying that it’s fundamentally incorrect, I can see where the perspective comes from (Renalla being both the First and the Last Queen of Caria certainly gave my head a good spin).
It is however weird how this dialogue and the Telescope description are the only things in the entire game that tie the GO and Age of the Erdtree together. Two completely missable things in the larger scheme of the game that make the entire thing just…weird.
The ancester followers, with ties the the pre-erdtree uhl society use their own sacrificial rites which produce budding horns, which are explicitly likened to the crucible.
I agree the crucible generally refers specifically to the erdtees earlier form. But its also a more general concept referring to a state/place/time where the dead are sacrificed/blended to create new life. Id argue the one great could’ve been the original crucible.
I'm sure that some of the item descriptions are meant to be read as written by in-universe characters with bias, or even flat-out propaganda; some "Those Who Live in Death" Hunter and Two Fingers Incantations are good examples of this.
The Crucible era being described as "when all life was once blended together" could also mean it was a time during which many beings of different species lived peacefully with one-another, just as places in real life are sometimes called "melting pots" when they contain numerous cultures and people from all over the world. The "Erdtree Faithful"/Golden Order wanted to conquer everything and then present itself as the best and only way to live, so they have an interest in making it seem like the previous ways of life were even more chaotic and primitive than they may have been.
10:16 Miyazaki actually said that the Erdtree enforces the Elden Ring's order.
I thought it was already common knowledge that the crucible was the erdtree? Idk
I truly appreciate your preface. You must be a Communications major. Possibly a second language minor (Japanese). Are you an English teacher in Japan or for Japanese Americans?
I think, there is an ongoing misunderstanding of the Golden Order and the Destined Death.
The Golden Order is the specific state of the Elden Ring, or the specific set of natural laws, chosen by Marika. "An epoch glistening with life", as she puts it.
The Destined Death is what Marika considers a fundamental flaw of the previous world order. A natural law that prevents life from shining.
Let's try to understand Marika's opinions about death and the world. In her own words:
- "Grow strong in the face of death, warriors of my lord."
- "Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices."
- "Put the Giants to the sword"
Judging by this, Marika doesn't reject the idea of finite individual lives.
Even we, the Tarnished, are called back to the Lands Between with explicit goal to wage war and to struggle, "because how else can a Lord be born?"
Death and the Destined Death must be two separate concepts.
Death is a natural part of the cycle of life. Things tend to grow, then flourish, then stagnate. I believe, Marika tried to secure the first two stages, and then save their result as a remembrance.
Stones never die, but they also aren't "glistening with life". As a monotheistic goddess of life, Marika has to accept (and does) a concept of death.
People are correct when they say: "an infinite life is unsustainable and unrealistic". But it's not what the Golden Order stands for.
Despite that, Marika is not insensitive. Gideon tells us: "I heard speculation Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree, but before he could finish, someone cut the tree open and absconded with his infant form. [..] Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified."
It's also assumed that Marika had mourned Godwyn. We can't confirm this, but characters who knew Marika can believe this to happen.
Let's see what's special about these deaths. In both cases, a great potential is wasted (or assumed to be wasted). In other words, these lives never came to full fruition.
If this incompleteness gets to Marika's guts, it can be a true nature of the Destined Death.
It'd explain how the Destined Death can kill a god. Gods aren't mortal, but if you could cut their destiny at a specific moment... it may do the trick.
And the undeath of Godwyn the Golden truly had consequences. I doubt that a grief from a loss of the firstborn could make Marika shatter the Elden Ring.
She is biased against certain things, and her decisions may be unnecessarily brutal, but she's also the most successful strategist we know of. If it was emotionally motivated, Marika would find plotters to burn their homeland and slaughter their kin. It fits her character way more.
Undeath prevents deaths from creating a new life. It breaks the cycle of life and the Golden Order.
That's not how Marika wants to immortalize great heroes of the Golden Order. Their existence as remembrances enriches the collective memory of the people for as long as the Golden Order stands.
Let's summarize it.
The Destined Death prevents one from reaching their full potential.
Marika's rejection of the Destined Death is probably rooted in some of her past experiences in Lands of Shadow.
Unlike Miquella with his ability to control the minds of others, Marika stands for life as it is. Her gifts come with no strings attached. She is fine with our personal desires, as long as they lead to progress, and won't interrupt the cycle of life.
Marika does not seek an infinite power and endless reign for herself. It's more like she sees the value of life in hardship. The Golden Order is perfect for champions like Godfrey, but it feels evil and oppressive to those who exist to rot alive - or those unlucky enough to attract Marika's wrath.
Ho I love no war in Ba singse, other wise it would be Na singse 😂
I've long considered that the GEQ is most likely the last enemy Godfrey was tasked with putting down before he was divested of Grace; the Sword Monument of his divestment is at the border of Caelid, and remarkably close to the Divine Tower of Caelid, where the GEQ's greatsword is kept, almost inaccessibly, at the bottom of a Tower that is already hard-to-access.
Moreover, the Bestial Sanctum may be conveniently placed for the land-based ruins of Farum Azula, but it is also perfectly situated to overlook the Divine Tower, and Gurranq's interest in safeguarding the GEQ's sword needs no explanation.
The biggest barrier to this notion has been the 'accepted' timeline of the GEQ's war with Marika, but your theory that the Crucible may be Godfrey's Erdtree makes this hypothesis more likely.
GEQ?
I've figured that out long before the talk of dlc.
So this actually corroborates Tarnished Archeologist's video called "The Secret Histories of the Omen and Misbegotten." Taking into consideration the pretty overt arboreal metaphor, the Helphen, Crucible, and the Erdtree are all the same "Great Tree." The Helphen would've been the original great tree during the age of the dragons, and then when it was destroyed (still unclear on the how and when) the Crucible would've been the era when all of the competing sprouts were growing out of its stump, and one of those sprouts was Marika's grafted Erdtree, at which point her rise to power would've taken place, eventually leading to her wiping out the competing sprouts to clear the way for her own sprout to grow. The part of the tree that is the same one Great Tree is the rootstock, upon which these different eras were built on. Go give the video a watch, there are very explicit visual representations of the crucible outside of the Siluria's Tree weapon and Crucible Knight helm, in the form of multiple statues depicting the "crown sprouting" from the original stump and Marika's Erdtree rising above the rest.
It does not. It does the opposite in fact (until we get more info,) because there's no "separation" from Crucible to Erdtree. In order for Marika to graft an "Erdtree" sprout on the so-called greattree, which in and of itself is a reference to the Erdtree, it would imply there would have had to have been an Erdtree already to take a branch from for grafting
8:41 you called?
I just really want the crucible to be a reference to The First Flame
I really like your interpretation though.
but why would the powers that be call out to us by Grace to come "back", if the product of their alchemy had resulted in a purrrfect eternal ordeal?
Omg the expansion is almost out im gonna pass out
the erdtree was created with blood.
have you watched Tarnished Archeologist? They basically already confirmed that the Erd Tree is that last bough of the Crucible (aka crown sprouting) of the Great Tree.
Nobody has confirmed anything, it's all speculative for the most part.
I personally suspect that the Erdtree was not the first sacred tree. As TA noted in one of his earliest videos, a sacred tree was likely worshipped by the Ancient Dynasty, a civilization that predates Marika by so long that you can count on your hands the item descriptions that acknowledge it, and we know nothing about it beyond it existed, they used bubbles at one point, and now the Scarlet Rot took over its main cloister.
@@Nemo12417 Which ancient civilization? The one that predates the Erdtree mentioned by Miyazaki in interviews about the DLC, featuring prominent Omen and Crucible imagery? The beastmen civilization? The Eternal cities? The Ancestral Followers of the Uhl/Uld dynasty? The astrologers? The fire monks?
@@Galamoth06 thats exactly it, the ancient dynasty, almost nothing is described about them in game and there is hardly any mention of them on items, but there is evidence of a completely other group that existed long before all of this, that seemed to have lived before the discovery of the erdtree, and incorporated it into their belief system as the "centre" of the world.
@@Galamoth06 I was referring to the Uhl/Uld Dynasty (ancestral followers can be found in their ruins, but the Dynasty was human, as evidenced by the prominent Moses like statue). Tarnished Archeologist noted that the Moses like figure was holding a tablet that appears to depict a tree. This was WAY before Marika came along, and as noted, the statue is clearly inspired by Moses, a famous figure in monotheism.
"In hoc signo vinces". By the sign of the Erdtree are the conquests pursued, and by conquest is the faith grown, literally growing the Erdtree larger with the bodies of foe and hero alike. It is no wonder the dragons wished to destroy it.
But this also shows that Life existed BEFORE the Erdtree, and likely the Elden Ring, and so the Elden Ring has always been a colonizing force that sought to aggregate and recombine the lifeforms of the LB into its own Vision (to bring it back to Marika being the bearer of the Vision). Rykard and Gowry both wish to attempt a Crucible of their own, one independent of the Greater Will's influence. That is why the Serpent seeks to devour "the world" and why Gowry wants an Age of Rot: melt down the Quintessence and forge it anew.
The Dragon’s had the Elden ring as well, so nah don’t think life existed before the Elden ring.
@@jarlwilliam9932 who said the dragons were the first lifeforms? This is not Dark Souls. The Beastmen existed before the Greater Will granted them intelligence, as evidenced by the Cinquedea. There was already Life before the Elden Ring; the Elden Ring only gave stricter Order to it. It did not create Life. The Primeval Current is not Gold. "Primeval" literally means "first age", and in the First Age there was no Gold. Gold came later, as a shooting star. The oldest Primeval Sorcery is Founding Rain of Stars, and those stars are Blue, not Gold. Elden Stars is only the oldest of the Erdtree incantations, and was sent by the GW to become the Erdtree and enforce the Will of the GW onto the Lands Between. Hence why "everything was opposed Erdtree" in the beginning. If all life came from the Erdtree, and thus the ELDEN RING, then why was everything opposed to it? Life was created by the "Founding" Stars. And it has amber in it, as said in its flavor text, but it is blue, not gold.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 Life was created when the Greater Will splintered the One Great. That is nothing in this game suggests the Greater Will is an evil alien god. Almost all evidence points to the Greater Will just simply being the life force behind everything including the stars and the outer gods.
@@jarlwilliam9932 the One Great and the Greater Will are two separate things, just as the majority and the minority within a democracy are two separate things, though they both belong to it. Moreover, your premise makes no sense. How did Life send a golden star to enforce Order onto itself if it did not exist beforehand? First, Life emerged from the Primeval starfall, then it summoned down the Golden Star, or Elden Star. Of course, the Greater Will might actually be a byword for Marika's will, or whosever will is Greater than others. We can see in the dlc trailer that Life existed before the Elden Ring was forged. Marika literally walks over and draws it out of the mass, standing before a giant mass of human bodies.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 We literally do not see what Marika draws out of the bodies. I never said the one great and greater Will where the same thing though of course following agnosticism it wouldn’t actually be a bad idea since the greater Will could conceptually just be the conscience of the one great though I prefer the Greater Will being the creator deity while the one great is the crucible.
The crucible precedes all life in the setting as it’s where life came from, and the beastmen worshipped or at least served the dragons, and there was an Elden lord before placidusax.
Arguing that the Greater Will is an invading force makes no sense given that all forms of order in the game have an Elden lord and all forms of order are created by different gods. This would place the Greater Will above all other gods in the setting if its rule of physics are being used by them all.
Wow! If so, maybe Marika didn't become a god until she banished Godfrey and when Radagon became her consort.
Firstly, this would explain why Messmer looks like Radagon's offspring.
Secondly, this may imply that before becoming a god Marika was just a person with special powers yet to awaken married to a mighty barbarian lord. So, basically Daenerys.
The crucible - the frenzied flame = the erdtree.
Minor spoilers ahead:
im just confused because if the crucible is the erdtree and it came about that late, how do things such as omen warriors we’ve seen in promotional images of the dlc and the hornsent race in the realm of shadow exist, because those are people from a civilization that existed before the erdtree, yet the theory is that the crucible is the erdtree.
So if timeline speculation is correct in some way, Godfrey knew messmer and knew of the terrible betrayal. If this speculation is true, those who knew Marika then give hints to the crucible time.
... yes ? The Erdtree is a form/development of the Crucible (or at least merged with it). Isn't that what we knew from the start?
I am not saying the Erdtree is a product of development from an earlier form. I am saying the Crucible was the Erdtree and was later changed artificially.
@@LastProtagonist I can't see the difference. In any case, we know that the Erdtree is not identical to the Crucible, but is closely related to it.
Nothing to apologize, I think you explained as best as you could.
The description fits your premise better if we assume Primodial means origin rather then the coloquial very old. That phrase can be restated as The Enegry from which all life originates. This is infact the correct reading of the phrase even if modern usage assumes in needs to be old.
The excepted eyptimology of Primordial is First Begining. This has nothing to do with time. Its literal latin usage is Origin.
Once again if we use Primordial properly it's saying the Origin of Gold is like that of life, having a red hue. Red in this game is the color of life and even real life absolutely pure gold would be closer to gold as originated and pure gold is red yellow in color.
I think your right. The things I'm saying support you read. Godfrey began red turns gold as Elden Lord and when we defeat him the first time goes primordial, back to red and life.
When Godfrey gives up gold or order he fights us in his primordial form, with his rage and the meat of his flesh drenched in blood. He gave Marika Omen Twins. He had crucible knights in his armies. He has kinship to lions.
Does the Crucible = the Pleroma? 🤔
I always thought the crucible was the meteor crater in the center of the lands between that the Erdtree was growing from. I imagined a greatree destroyed by golden star and from that destruction, the crucible, then the gold/tree hybrid and the crucible mutants, then the destruction of the Erdtree by the dragons, then the golden illusory Erdtree of the present.
I just wanted to let you know you're the only source of information I'm willing to listen to, and I'm super hostile towards any other channel that even slightly contradicts you
Um, thanks? But I won't condone outright hostility towards others. Even if I disagree with folks, there can still be value in understanding their viewpoint, so I'd ask you to be respectful toward others at a bare minimum
youre the best bro keep up the great videos!
10:09 it's important to notice that the Erdtree conquered the Lands Between even though Leyndell "fights its wars defensively". So, they only defended, but they still conquered lands far away, how does that work? I believe that it's because the Elden Ring allows its bearer to slowly rewrite reality to whatever you want it to be. This image of how you want the world to be is your "vision", and that's why Marika is referred to as a "visions vessel". This also explains why the shape of the Elden Ring has changed over time: different "Orders" had different visions for the world and their Elden Ring reflected that. So as long as you have the Elden Ring, and a Vessel for it, you don't have to attack. You just have to wait, and the world will become what you want it to be.
Why do tarnished archaeologist fans insist on vomiting his dumb theories all over the comment section of actual good lore videos
Finally people are starting to understand that we need to have a "more japanese approach" to the lore of these games.
There's an Italian streamer/content creator called Sabaku no Maiku who has been saying for a year that the crucible is just a primordial version of the erdtree, but aside from him and the japanese community no one was really considering that idea. Everyone just kept saying the "great tree" (which is very likely a translation error) was a tree that came before the erdtree and can now be found somewhere in the underground, or that the crucible is some kind of primordial soup, since that's the image a crucible would evoke.
It's very refreshing to see you and others like smoughtown understand that we need to look beyond our westernized perspective to understand more of the lore.
Now if only we could get people to understand that outer gods aren't lovecraftian creatures fighting to win the planet over but instead incarnations of the forces of nature akin to the japanese kami, that would take a load off my chest
Finally, let me take you on a little ride:
the Crucible is the original form of the Erdtree. The Erdtree at some point changed and stopped being called Crucible. The most notable change was the color. The crucible was "red" although it looks much more similar to orange as a color. Orange is made of yellow and red. Marika removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring to create her perfect order. The Erdtree we see in the present is clearly yellow. Do you remember what color the rune of death was?
it wasn't simply stopped being called the Cruicible and started being called the Erdtree, the Erdtree was grafted onto the Cruicible. you can see this referenced on the statues lining the highway in the Altus Plateau, but the grafting failed signalled by the Omens (in the literal sense), that's why Marika started birthing people from the Erdtree's sap
i think the red stands for the element of iron / Fe
I agree about the Crucible being the Erdtree, and the "greattree" being a mistranslation. Heck, the Finger Reader at the Capital Outskirts even calls the Erdtree the "great tree" in her dialogue. However, I think the stellar nature of the Elden Beast, the implication of Erdtrees on various planets told by its boss arena, notions of the Scarlet Rot outer god having a "lesser god" forced to serve it in Malenia, Goddess of Rot, and other things indicate that the outer gods might still be like the Great Ones of H.P. Lovecraft's works.
Also, the blood star seems to focus on wounds and is seen by people with injured eyes, and Mohg's outer god, the Formless Mother, is said to crave wounds and may have only contacted/been contacted by him after one of his horns grew into his left eye. If the blood star is the Formless Mother, then that matches well with something akin to Lovecraft's notion of living stars with great cosmic power that might also be Great Ones.
An issue with the Crucible's color is that, if the Rune of Death rejoins the Elden Ring in the ending, then it looks gold just like every other Great Rune. Additionally, the other Great Runes only take on different appearances when something tries to act upon them, like Radahn setting his Great Rune aflame, Mohg's Great Rune being affected by Bloodflame, etc.
As such, the Rune of Death's black and red appearance might be from such an outside factor, though the question is what being tried to exert itself on the rune. Additionally, if the Rune of Death was in the Elden Ring at the time the Elden Ring mural in Farum Azula was made, then the Elden Ring was still gold in that era.
I think the Crucible might have had a slightly different color because the Erdtree wasn't fully grown yet, akin to the history of goldsmithing, where traces of other materials used to be harder to remove. Also, looking at the Minor Erdtree Church, it's possible that as Erdtrees begin to grow, their glow subsides to an extent and their brown bark becomes more noticeable, with the light and the bark creating an orangish color.
The minor Erdtrees with Crystal Tears have entirely brown bark, though if the major Erdtree is any indication, Erdtrees become gold again upon reaching maturity. We know that the Erdtree is still intact too, because once Maliketh is defeated, the branches in the canopy can be seen with brown bark when viewed from places like Leyndell.
Thanks for giving a shout-out to Sabaku no Maiku, I've heard good things about his work.
Maybe I should have been clearer in the video, but this theory is anti-grafting theory. The Crucible is meant to be understood *as* the Erdtree in this lens, and the only change in it came from tampering with the Elden Ring, like in the m'endings.
Let's stop with this “Japanese mentality” - as if there were some kind of cultural mystique that permeates everything that comes from and goes out of Japan. It's all the more inaccurate given that Martin co-wrote the game's lore.
By the way, the Outer Gods are not kami: they are clearly deities “outside” (hence their name) the ordinary order of the world. If calling them Lovecraftian is a bit of an exaggeration, kami doesn't make sense: “Formless Mother”, “Greater Will”, “Frienzed Flame”; they don't really evoke the spirits of wind, water and grains of rice.
Well the crucible, great tree and erd tree being the same thing but in different states, is probably true.
Not so sure about your reasoning, but we might know soon.
I always thought the crucible was a collection of trees or religious groups all vying with each other to survive, as that aligns with the metaphorical meaning of crucible and explains that statue of the dude holding a bunch of trees. Then at some point the erd tree “wins” when Marika and Godfrey come to power. But it could be that the crucible is just the TIME PERIOD of the early erd tree when life is still sorta blended.
I think it’s going to be similar to ds1 dlc where the player is the reason for past events and past lore
I agree that the Crusible became the Erdtree. On a channel called 'Tarnished Archeologist', they go over the clues in the archeological styles of buildings and iconography to come to conclusions.
They reach a sinilar conclusion, but also with the basis that the 'Erdtree' root system has produced more than one giant tree. It's a thing in nature where a root system can stay alive by regrowing the part above ground.
They identified a prior 'Great Tree' era, which was felled and resulted in the Crusibles many competing sprouts. A statue depicts when one sprout is 'selected', which would become the Erdtree. It is likely that the wars of conquest were meant to 'prune' the other sprouts so the chosen one could thrive.
I wonder if the opening scene of the trailer depicts the moment Marika made a 'selection', triggering the 'pruning' wars.