Don't forget the negotiations between the UN and MCR on Earth, when Avasarala questioned Bobby Draper. That was quite an insight into Martian authoritarian mentality. Compared to Mars, Earth appears to be much more relaxed.
We do find out in Season 5 that Mars has a significant Parliament Building, which from the perspective of those who bombed it, functioned as a symbol of the Martian government as a whole. In addition, the police corruption to which you refer in Seasons 4 and 5 occurs only *after* Mars has begun to decline politically and economically after the opening of the Ring Gates. Mars strikes me as oligarchic--a “republic,” yes, but a republic in which only the wealthy and militarily significant people get to “represent” the people at large.
I don't really agree with your assessment. First of all, I think the MCR's political structure is never explained in depth on purpose... the idea is to keep you guessing as you read the books or watch the show, on who "the bad guy" is, eventually with the twist and turns we learn there are multiple bad and good guys on all sides, and that neither polity is perfect. So whether Mars is a democracy or not will probably never be fully cleared up, this is by design, so that we cannot stick "good guy" and "bad guy" labels so easily using modern politics. It would spoil us the fun of discovering the story slowly. All that said, we are told Mars has a Prime Minister, an opposition, military officers are (generally) free to speak their minds, there is compulsory military service but this exists in many modern democracies today. I don't see any hard evidence of harsh repression, censored media, political officers on the ships to keep everyone in line (as the Soviet Union had), etc, etc... so IMHO it could go either way. Just because it's militaristic doesn't mean it's not democratic. There is certainly corruption, but that can be said of all the factions in The Expanse. I think the idea is to keep us guessing, it's a mishmash of things which aims to create a futuristic government form that looks a bit odd and alien to us, considering it's set three generations into the future, Mars is a combination of different things, from a European-style Parliament, with a Spartan-like militarist outlook, and a Big Government project (Terraforming) that wouldn't be out of place in a social democracy, a fascist state or a communist one. I guess the idea is for us to fill in the blanks and make our own head canon. Vague enough so that we can't easily decide on who to root for.
I think you are actually looking into it to much. I have an alternative explanation for all the evidence you brought up. They are a militaristic republic similar to the US or Israel. One that is aggressive, somewhat authoritarian, but ultimately not a dictatorship. First of all, its stressed that the reason Mars builds better ships is because they have better scientists. By nature, scientific pursuit is easier in a free or democratic society. If you are an elite scientist in the pre-ring sol system, you would likely have the choice to live on Earth or Mars. Earth, for all its problems is clearly shown to be democratic. So why would skilled scientists choose to stay on mars if there wasn't some sort of freedom or individual rights? Secondly, all the militaristic observations you have made could easily be explained by the existential fear the society faces. Fear is a great motivator, and democracies that face existential threats tend to toughen up (UK under Churchill, US during Cold war.) The police interactions we saw do suggest that the state is heavy-handed, and has a high preference towards order. But we already knew that from seeing how their military functions. The question here is, after the arrest, is the suspect given due process? And it is never shown that they aren't. Finally, we see a bit on how Mars faces a crisis. The government didn't appear to suppress info on the unemployment crisis on Mars. It also didn't seem to prevent people from leaving. If Mars really was a dictatorship, they would revoke exit visas, and prevent their skilled workers from leaving.
Can someone tell me who is the head of the MCR of Mars? At the end of season 5, Avasarala is the UN Secretary General of Earth, and now that the Belters' OPA is in disarray, Marcos Inaros is running things.
Sure, Mars isn’t the most libertarian place around, but it’s still a democracy. You do get authoritarian nations with democracies, and I feel the reason why Mars is authoritarian is more cultural than political.
As a citizen of an "authoritarian nation with democracy". I would argue, that no authoritarian nation is actually democratic. And no geographical or cultural excuse justifies the blatant abuse of power that comes with the lack of true alternance of power via elections and the true separation of powers.
@@LordSesshaku also, you get democracies with authoritarian elements. There’s a lot of grey area. Key is free and fair elections of course. But could also entail policing, freedom of press, freedom of speech.
@@blacklite911 Actually no. Free and fair elections are not enough. That's how Napoleon, Hitler, Putin, Kirchner, Maduro and Mussollini came to power. A democracy requires: - True separation of powers - Viable alternation of power. - Solid independent institutions that are not controlled by a single power or party. Take Argentina for instance. You have (for now) "free and fair elections". But: - The electoral system is designed to favor one party, garanteeing a win with less than 51% of votes. - All unions respond to that single party, making sure that even if said party looses the election, the elected goverment has to face constant labour issues and labour strikes. - The Judicial System is full of party elected judges and attorneys that constantly muddle with all trials on said party corruption history - The Universities are mostly occupied by party members that actively indoctrinate party doctrine, going as far as having pledged to vote for that party in the 2015 election. - The Congress is essentially dominated by that single party, having full and permanent control of the Senate, thanks to feudal-like States controlled by the same Party, and even Governor for the past 30 years, plus total control of the House, thanks to the artificial creation of "independent parties" that exist solely to divide the opposition and actually end up voting for the main party in all key laws. - Finally said party actively spends effort and resources in controlling all media newspapers and channels possible.
Author of this video doesn't understand that there is a difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism. Any regime can be totalitarian and that "any" includes a democracy. The same is not correct for authoritarian policies, e.g. direct democracy of greek type can't be authoritarian simply because the way of its implementation makes it impossible. In the same time, despite not being authoritarian, the same ancient greek democracies were examples of the most totalitarian regimes that ever existed in history. In fact, a direct democracy with simple majority voting is the most totalitarian system which humanity could possibly implement. If the majority decided to outcast or execute you, or enforce some ridiculous policy, then nothing and nobody will protect you from that. Not even theoretically, like in absolute monarchy, where monarch is above law and therefore has a power to grant you unconditional pardon or revoke any unfair legislation by his own sovereign will. That is why Aristotle considered democracy as one of twisted forms of government, placing it in the same category with oligarchy and tiranny.
I have to declare my bias because I actually really like the Martian society shown in the series (Well at least the initial seasons before the decline in seasons 4+). There is a shared vision which people seem to buy in to. There is some bigotry and elitism, however I feel the latter is earned as they have a tradition of superior technology and a well trained military. There is a sense of be the best you can be. In the Terraforming projects they are proud to devote their lives to a legacy which they may never see. We don't see any evidence of elections so it may be a dictatorship, however if it us it does not look all that oppressive. People are free to leave. One can argue that military service is oppressive but this does exist in many democratic countries. I think it's unfair to call the police corrupt as this is seen in the decline of Martian society. We never see the police in the earlier seasons so it is difficult to make a comparison. It is also worth looking at what is happening in the world right now. Many countries are forcing their citizens to remain indoors. Businesses are banned from operating and people are forced to wear masks in many situations. In some countries (UK) it is now illegal to leave the country in most cases. At least Martians can leave if they want to. If you think the MCR is a dictatorship you should look at your own country and ask the same question. (Not necessarily directed at this RUclipsr but everyone reading this in 2021)
Absolutely absurd analogy of Martian authoritarianism to present-day pandemic response of curtailing public interactions. Institutionalized and perpetually reproducing constraints on civil rights as an existential standard is 'hardly' comparable to the specific and an unprecedented response to a medical emergencies with mounting corpses -- a response whose civil penalties are largely unarticulated and scarcely enforced, and thus broadly ignored.
If you’re seriously conflating temporary civil restrictions instituted to combat a global pandemic to dictatorship, a visit to Sane Town might be in order.
@@michaelhall2709 I would ask how you define temporary. 2 weeks was the initial timeline. This has been massively exceeded. When government officials are asked about an end date they don't provide one. They say they will be led by data, but when the data supports lifting of restrictions they increase the restrictions (this is from a UK perspective where we have daily deaths in the low double digits and parliament voted to extend measures by another 6 months). Imagine if I employed you and due to 'temporary' cash flow problems I was unable to pay your wages. Then you noticed that revenues had significantly increased, how long would you wait before asking about your wages? Also whenever a dictatorship is enacted, most of the time there will be a 'good' reason for it. Are you not concerned that the goalposts keep moving and that laws are at times are being introduced arbitrarily?
@@crazytown1146 What’s your worry, exactly, Looney Town - that your despotic government wants to keep you indoors, and masked, forever? You admit that the Martian government is bigoted and authoritarian but think it’s “justified” because they have better technology? Really? As an American I suppose I can take cold comfort in the fact that we’re not the only stupid polity in the world when it comes to politics. If you’re truly concerned about your civil liberties you might consider that the British are amongst the most surveilled people on earth. That you have a world-class clown as your Prime Minister; that your political system is almost as dysfunctional as that in the United States; that you have the growing levels of inequality and nativism that inevitably lead to fascism. Those are real-world concerns, as opposed to rational measures taken to combat a once-in-a-century pandemic. Grow up, please.
@@michaelhall2709 I worry about the direction of travel and the increasing authoritarianism for a virus which mostly kills the very old or the very sick. This doesn't mean do nothing but a more targeted approach would have made more sense. Plus laws which are enacted in haste in a crisis can be difficult to reverse later. If you read what I said about the Martians I said the elitism was earned not the bigotry. Also worth mentioning the majority of people on Earth live on basic and often have to wait decades for training. I think it better to have goals than to just sit on welfare as there is nothing to strive for. I too am concerned about the level of surveillance, however this does not affect my day to day existence to a great extent. Besides if you use social media or engage in society in any way you're under some level of surveillance. I have no problem with governments prioritising their citizens over non-citizens. I will admit throwing in the covid issue on this MCR video is inappropriate but at the time seemed relevant.
To my mind, the Martian way of life is certainly structured. In the scene where we see the group of children manipulating a hologram of a piece of equipment, I remember it specifically described as a valve assembly, which tells me that Mars values a STEM education to the point where it is integral to children's play. Also, as a "congressional republic," somebody has to elect/appoint the members of this congress, which means some form of electorate. Even with the broad police powers we see invoked, the people appear content within their society, so if the government IS a dictatorship, it is a benign one. Keep in mind that part of the reason that Duarte led the Laconia diaspora was because he felt that Mars had grown "too soft" and wanted a "more disciplined society."
The UN settled Mars and they still called it a colony. It’s like they wanted to eventually have Mars rebel or something. Jesus. Make it a nation-state/administrative region ffs.
"Colony" is a sensitive term, but it can also be used neutrally. Even today we talk about "colonizing" space. Perhaps "settling" should be the preferred, less loaded term?
All Martian’s will be relocated to Sector Planet E3 in the ring. We have accomplished our goal and hope that all Martians join us in understanding that the future is at the Ring gates. We will be relocating all Martian citizens based on need and sector. The Martian Government thanks all citizens for their hard work and dedication.
i just can't understand one thing: why do you only have 1k subs? Seriously, you've got a great presence and style. i wouldn't be able to say the name of the person at the top of the MCR, if there even is a single person the "congress" reports to. Definitely authoritarian, but free in many other ways not usually associated with oppressive governments. Like freedom of expression and more tolerance for anti-government sentiment out in the open. There's a line of course. And though it's very much an inconvenience to be called out for inspection, the martians seem to prefer it that way; feeling safe if you know there's nothing the authorities want from you and that they're there for your protection runs deep with them, it feels like. And although the boots on the ground are dangerous and deadly, they seem to take a sort-of light touch with anything not directly on their radar, enabling more general trust for their methods..? maybe. Just some headcanon and based on my memory of the books, which admittedly isn't as clear as it probably should be. Great vid, wish it was longer!
Mars is much smaller and has a smaller population than Earth and thus had to be authoritarian to get their ALL their citizens to be at top productivity / performance where 1 Martian is better than any Earther. They didn't have freedom for luxury like Earthers.
In the books it's pretty clear that Mars is a democracy. In particular it's what it's called a parliamentary democracy, which in the real world is the most common kind of democracy. A parliamentary democracy has a Prime Minister elected by a legislature. Examples of this would be Canada and the United Kingdom. In the book one Martian Prime Minister Nathan Smith is voted out and replaced by Emily Richards. I suspect that Congressional in the MCR refers to their legislature being called Congress like in the US and not like in the UK and Canada. I think we get a distorted image of the MCR because we see less of the internal divisions within the MCR while the divisions of Earth and the Belt are central to the story. It's not until Duarte becomes a central character that we see a major split in Martian society. Also many of the main characters in the Martian society are in the military so we assume wrongly that Mars might be some sort of military dictatorship. If we knew nothing about the United States and we saw a story told only from the perspective of the US military and no reference to electoral politics we might wrongly assume that the US is a military dictatorship.
How can any society running in enclosed settlements in a hostile environment NOT be basically authoritarian? That's one of the undersung elements of space colonization that is rarely referred to. Heinlein predicted it more than sixty years ago.
Wasn't Heinlein's theme in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress that Luna was a Libertarian/Anarchist paradise (albeit in later books it started to centralize and bureaucratize)?
@@BNRmatt Anarchism invariably leads to authoritarianism. Witness the French Revolution... or California! In the case of an inclosed society, a chaotic phase would be over quite quickly. Survival would mandate it.
As an American, for me its all about the "Administration" thats elected in ANY democratic republic/society Weve had PLENTY of president's and their Administrations back in the day be viewed (both for the time and today)as "authoritarian" in nature one way or another but we can either vote them out or wait out the last days of their terms
What I’m missing about Mars in this season and last is that they’re making a narrative that Mars is in a big path of recent decline (they mention a lot of jobs going away which is causing more people to become corrupt and deal in the black market), but for the life of me I don’t remember if they gave a cause of the catastrophic sudden economic downturn
Mars' economy is based on 2 things. The military and the terra forming projects. This makes it really fragile. Since the opening of the ring gates. Many people see that terraforming mars is not needed anymore, because there are hundreds of habitable worlds out there. So people have moved out of mars and gave less attention to it. Specifically the terra forming projects which are one of the bases of the economy. If one base of the economy goes down or is on the path of going down. The economy itself starts to decline and crumble.
Mars gained it's independence around 2213 and the show takes place around 2350 so there is a 137 year gap so a lot could have changed from the original Martian view on society when they broke away the UN, Mars isn't a dictatorship but rather more authoritarian. If they were not so militaristic then the terraforming project would have been completed sooner. It kept getting delayed and having set backs due to their war mongering nature. Having Earth be a boot on them for nearly 200 years since they were colonized made them resentful. So they wanted to get back at Earth and become the dominant force in the system.
They were in constant fear of Earth taking over them so they had to defend themselves. They would've basically been became Belters if they didn't have better weapons.
Really, really wrong. Modern china is an amalgam of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist and Confucian principles, controlled by an almost State Capitalist economic model. Mars' economy is strongly centrally controlled, but lacks the other crucial elements
@@exmachinz can you elaborate on the crucial elements missing. Because honestly, the interpretation of those ideals can depend on who you ask. So in laymen terms, what policies are differently presented in the Martian depiction and China
Also, has advanced technology and is gradually outpacing their rivals in terms of innovation. Though Mars is arguably much closer to a "classically" fascist country like 3rd Reich Germany than it is to authoritarian China. China is ironically less militaristic whereas a huge part of Mars' economy depends on their military-industrial complex. China depends to a lesser extent on foreing industrial contracts, not on domestic military contracts. As shown in the show, as soon as the "Cold War" arms race stops, Mars starts to take a socio-economic nosedive. China does not depend on a cold war, quite the opposite in fact; its model basically required the cold war to stop in order to start gaining momentum.
While I'm sure there would some level of corruption in the martian police. I feel it should be pointed out that the detective used as an example if I recall correctly became that way recently due to events that kind of killed the goal the majority of martians were working toward. So corruption may not have been as extensive before.
I find it strange that they totally abandoned the terraforming project because if they succed and terrafom this planet, then they could do it on other worlds or if not, the information gathered from Mars is valuable for other projects. Or just cover the planet in Domes and call it a day.
I disagree with everything you said here, and the reason I disagree is I have read the books, and in the books you get a far more balanced perspective. Since only the books are canon, and the show is made from the books, I will defer at all times to the books. Mars is NOT authoritarian, that would Earth. In the books it's clearly established that Mars is a representative democracy, or if you will, a republic. It's members are elected, and it's Prime Minister is chosen by the elected representatives. Prime ministers can and do get removed for corruption or basic inept leadership like a real government by a simple vote of "no confidence" which triggers snap elections. This happened to Martian Prime Prime Minister Nathan Smith who was replaced by Emily Richards because Nathan Smith failed to prevent Winston Duarte from stealing 1/3 of the Martian Naval fleet. Furthermore, the police raids with alarms going off in the apartment and people just being hauled off? Purely a show fiction, this never once happened in the books. Now if you have all read the novella "Drive", it tells the story of Solomon Epstein in the early days of Mars. It's clear that the martians viewed Earth as a completely out of touch, corrupt, bloated government where the representatives in the UN General Assembly don't actually respond to the interests of citizens, and even worse Mars has no representation whatsoever because they're a colony, yet Mars is required to give all of it's resources to support these corrupt lazy welfare queens, with 50% on basic, wasting away, while those at the top have all the resources. The straw that broke the camel's back was when the UN passed the equivalent of the stamp act and demanded Mars close all of it's ship yards and buy its ships from the Bush ship yards. This was their intolerable act and Mars, taking the United States as it's example rebelled. Note Mars could have formed any type of government it wanted, a Kingdom, an Empire, but they chose a constitutional republic with the rights of citizens enshrined in the constitution. Martians are militaristic because if they waste any resources like your average Earth taker, they die, the teraforming project dies. Every Martian citizen happily serves in the Armed forces because this is their home and they take pride in serving. Martians take their citizenship seriously, much like the Terran Federation in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers because everyone has a stake in martian society. On earth, only 50% of the public has a stake in society and even among the employed, only the 1/10th of 1% have a real stake in earth. Calling Mars a dictatorship and praising the globalist UN as some sort of beacon of democracy is like the pot calling the kettle black. The only reason Mars ever had corrupt cops (another invention of the show) was because the ring gates made Mars unnecessary. The whole purpose for Mar's existence died once the ring gates opened. Had the ring gates not been discovered, Mars would have carried on, completed their terraforming project and eventually gave the UN the ass kicking it deserved. SMH Unbelievable with people like Erinwright in the UN that you could ever think the UN are the good guys.
By Season 3, the façade starts to slip. We see Mars for what it really is, a decadent society in decline no different from Earth but at least Earth makes no bones about what they are while Mars has long since touted itself as this advanced, prosperous state but we see the engorged military machine is what kept unemployment down now that war is a distant prospect and the Ring gates are opened, a new gold rush began and the dream of a habitable Mars is a dead one just like the planet.
Mars may not be the ideal Star Spangled Country we associate by our contemporary Western cultures, but I don't think it's Nazi-grade tyranny. I think with the MCRN they have a sentiment of distancing away from the ideals of Earth that we value as the criteria of freedoms because of a long standing view that it was those ideals that lead to Earth being tarnished ecologically and socially. Mars was colonized by the best scientists because maybe Earth didn't value what they hoped to give humanity, other than the same repetitive cycle of consumption. So while it may not be a free-nation, I think their hearts are in the right place.
The whole video makes less sense simply because the author piles up all the terms that contradict each other. Or not. For example, let's look at the USA during the Second World War: Was the United States a Democracy? Basic, yes. The entire political system of the United States was based on the principle of collective governance through a system of bourgeois representative democracy. Was the United States a Dictatorship? Basic, yes. Even without considering the fact that any state under the existing class system is a dictatorship of one ruling class, suppressing another class(es), the United States passed wartime laws that significantly limited rights and freedoms of citizens. Starting from state censorship and ending with the sending of the Asian minority to concentration camps. Was the United States a Authoritarian? Basic, yes. In wartime, in the process of building a command chain system, when all decisions a) must be strictly controlled from top to bottom and b) be able to adapt as quickly as possible to a changing situation, the role of one person at the head of the system, the leader, becomes the most important. And the qualities of this person are decisive, which invariably causes the adjustment of the entire political system to the ever-increasing authority of this person. That inevitably causes the growth of political power concentrated in the hands of this person, loyal to this person, as well as those who refer to the authority of this person. Which personality was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who is absolutely legitimate, from the point of view of the American political system, for the fourth time participated in the presidential elections in the United States.
Your reasoning makes no sense. They live in communal terraforming domes. To really determine if they are oppressive: We need to know can you leave your dome? Can you establish your own dome? My guess the goal is to establish new domes.
Watching S4 the omnipresent propaganda on Mars - Focus, Save water, get your Civilian Assessments in on time, reminded me of the propaganda within the Psi Corps in Babylon 5. Heavy handed and more totalitarian than authoritarian. They want the citizens to believe correctly.
Their lives depend on it. They cannot afford to make any mistakes as Mars would be unforgiving. Any society in such a hostile environment would have to be so in order to survive as long as scarcity is the norm.
I think the MCR isn't quite a dictatorship or totalitarian government, but more of a hybrid system, like modern Turkey or Thailand. The military and police have an outsized influence and freedoms are limited. I think the strongest evidence you present is the "police action" announcement. That whole thing just reeks of authoritarianism. Two other pieces of evidence (one if which occurred after you published this video): 1) The only "civilian" government official we get to know is Minister of Defense Korshunov, who is a retired Marine. Though it's becoming increasingly common in the US lately, there's a good reason Secretaries of Defense in the US are supposed to be civilians. It's also unusual, but not too weird, that a diplomatic negotiation is being headed by a Defense Minister, as opposed to the Foreign Office or equivalent. It's also striking that, in the negotiations between Earth and Mars, the only Martians who speak are Korshunov and military officers. [Seasons 4 and 5 spoiler warning!] 2) In Seasons 4 and 5, we see that elements of the military are able to sell massive amounts of military hardware, even entire warships, out the back door, even as the MCRN shrinks. That suggests that civilian oversight is weak. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Duarte faction was complicit in the bombing of Parliament, or even undertook it on their own initiative. Good video, you made some interesting points here.
Labor and business needs to create value. Government shipbuilding and the terraforming project is going to consume a great deal of value, while producing little immediate benefit. Unfortunately, it's that immediate benefit that is needed for the worker to put food on the table. Unless Mars is a near-perfect communist society, which it clearly isn't, there needs to be far more non-government work that produces significant excess value so that excess value can then be used to provide the government service, such as terraforming. That means that there needs to be a significant economy that does something other than terraform or make things for government. Spending up to 30% of the economy on the military broke the Soviet Union. The imminent threat of death is a bit stronger on Mars, and so there will be more cooperation and more personal sacrifice, but even so there are limits. That means there needs to be something that people buy and sell. On Babylon 5, when we meet Marcus the ranger, he described Earth as the place that sent books and vids and took 20%, so he didn't care much about it. Until Marco Inaros came by, there was no place for Mars to export warships, so the economy had to have other large sectors.
I don't see Mars has any natural resources that others factions lack so all they can export is high quality industrial products ( they are full of intellectual after all) and intellectual property (same reasons). If the Ring didn't exist and the Terra forming project is finished, the gain would outweigh the cost because by that point, Mars would be the only place in the solar system that still have empty livable land. It is wierd that they don't have a government bond to sell.
I think it was apparent from the get-go that the MCR is a pretty authoritarian government, if one that falls short of being an outright dictatorship. (Admiral Sauveterre, who’s damned impressive in his War College presentation, is ultimately revealed to be an outright fascist.) Just my opinion, but I’ve always thought it was a subtext of the show that regimentation and authoritarianism are often the price a society pays for everyone having a common goal, e.g. the terraforming of Mars. And no, I don’t think any of that makes them, in the eyes of the narrative or its authors, the “bad guys.” All of the societies and factions portrayed on the show are pretty wanting in various ways. They have good reason to fear and distrust one another.
Is Mars a dictatorship? Well, it doesn’t have a dictator, so no. You can’t gave a Kingdom without a king (or queen), you can’t have a theocracy without a god, and you can’t have a dictatorship without a dictator. Is Mars authoritarian? Arguably somewhat. But authoritarian states are not the same as dictatorships. Africa is full of dictatorships that do not map onto what we would recognize as authoritarian states, simply because the dictator rules the capital and the major cities, but has almost zero power in the countryside, which means that ninety percent of the citizens never see any authoritarianism in their lives. They may not have much freedom, but again, that’s neither authoritarianism nor dictatorship. I felt that you were trying to ask if Mars were fascist, but didn’t want to use that word because they didn’t have a cult of personality or a special salute, as if that (as so many seem to think today) were the substance of fascism. The economy seems to resemble a French dirigiste model, and the idea of exposing middle school kids to potential career tracks is actually pretty standard (as I understand it) in the United Kingdom. So is Mars authoritarian? Well, if so, no one seems to dislike it enough to change it, so the government appears to derive its just powers from the consent of the governed.
republic have noting to do whit representation republic implays a distribution of power in ceparated branches. A lot of republics were aristocratic not representative or democratic (there are almost no democracies in the world).
mars is america. they say something to that effect in the drive novella. the corrupting of mars in the last season is a forshadowing to something coming up. probably not next season but the one after it.
How about the fact that on earth most are poor and have no jobs? Mars gave jobs to everyone. You were not forced into a job by government, you got to choose. It was stated in season 1 multiple times by Earth politicians that only reason Mars has military is to protect themselves and that put there terraforming back 1 century thanks to Earth being aggressive. Mars culture is based on survival and goal to make Mars livable like Earth with no pollution. This video is distasteful and leaves out much.
WRONG republic simple means no monarch. China and US have no monarch so are both republics Canada and UK are monarchies but have more representation in government than china
I've not read the books but to complain about police being corrupt is to not understand the show. Mars police were not corrupt - it never occurs to Bobby that they could be, it's a shock to her when she realizes they are. It is odd to argue police are corrupt and leave out the talk she has with the ring leader as he explains why he stopped being that good Martian they were expected to be. Society was aligned to terraform Mars. Everyone believed in that mission. They sacrificed for that goal. But having thousands of new worlds within their grasp breaks that alignment and faith there is that garden for everyone.
Democracy... that’s not a way to govern... the old Greeks had it... and when it is use as electoral tool it only works wrong: tyranny of the majority, unless checked by rules and regulations like America does with it’s Electoral College Republic, a for form of government... an integral part would be the separation of powers: rule, create laws, judge the other two... or Executive, Legislative, Judicial. Goes well with democracy but can function with the less amount of it. Fascism, another form of government, “there is nothing outside the State, The State is Everything, One cannot go Against the State”... it has little to do with lack of freedom and not use democracy too. It is as good as the government itself: can be good, like the British Empire... or can be bad, like the Japanese Empire... Italy under “Il Duce” was in between (problem was “Il Duce made bad friends”, the Germans). People who use “Fascist” as a bad word don’t understand the type of government... Republic is better, more solid, but Fascism is not bad. Dictatorship, another form of government, like “the British Empire before the Carta Magna”... it can use any for of government, from Fascist to Socialism to Monarchist to Communism. So it can be a good thing,... but usually it’s not. Stalin, Idi Amin, Francisco Franco, etc And the Nazis... national socialist... a Socialist/Communist regime... production at the hands of the proletariat and also the State/Party... the ethnic nonsense was a negative... and it was almost all of the above, except a Republic ... do the math. They hated the Soviets (Communism), they hated the Republican Spaniards (Socialist loyal to the King and Catholicism)... but then again all Marxist hate the others like them: The Left Eats Itself... Always! Sorry I had to write that... I have been studying this nonsense thru historic and current political situations. Woke Culture, it’s eating itself... my younger sister has her brin washed, and nobody can do anything about it other than wait for her to wake up... NOT WOKE!!!!!! 😆 Rules and Regulations, for the government... not for the people. Freedom is for us, not for them... anyone who says otherwise is dangerous. Worse! We as human being are all racists by definition... “an evolutionary tool for survival”, like superstition But one, with the use of reason and logic and empathy, must control those and avoid believing what’s not .... human beings are not inferior based on “appearance and looks”, they could be for other Merit Based facts... same for believing a thunder is a good, or the one from those holy books. But I digress Cheers!
Don't forget the negotiations between the UN and MCR on Earth, when Avasarala questioned Bobby Draper. That was quite an insight into Martian authoritarian mentality. Compared to Mars, Earth appears to be much more relaxed.
Well... You can't be relaxed when your air supply is limited. Simply as that.
Not so sure. Earth seems more about stripping your rights and resources. Convoluted rules over property. Threats of being put on basic assistance.
@@Dularr yes.
Earth is basically a socialist collectivist failure, where the people have Zero Economic Freedom.
@@DularrI mean it's easy to forget that in that building.
We do find out in Season 5 that Mars has a significant Parliament Building, which from the perspective of those who bombed it, functioned as a symbol of the Martian government as a whole. In addition, the police corruption to which you refer in Seasons 4 and 5 occurs only *after* Mars has begun to decline politically and economically after the opening of the Ring Gates. Mars strikes me as oligarchic--a “republic,” yes, but a republic in which only the wealthy and militarily significant people get to “represent” the people at large.
I don't really agree with your assessment.
First of all, I think the MCR's political structure is never explained in depth on purpose... the idea is to keep you guessing as you read the books or watch the show, on who "the bad guy" is, eventually with the twist and turns we learn there are multiple bad and good guys on all sides, and that neither polity is perfect. So whether Mars is a democracy or not will probably never be fully cleared up, this is by design, so that we cannot stick "good guy" and "bad guy" labels so easily using modern politics. It would spoil us the fun of discovering the story slowly.
All that said, we are told Mars has a Prime Minister, an opposition, military officers are (generally) free to speak their minds, there is compulsory military service but this exists in many modern democracies today. I don't see any hard evidence of harsh repression, censored media, political officers on the ships to keep everyone in line (as the Soviet Union had), etc, etc... so IMHO it could go either way.
Just because it's militaristic doesn't mean it's not democratic. There is certainly corruption, but that can be said of all the factions in The Expanse. I think the idea is to keep us guessing, it's a mishmash of things which aims to create a futuristic government form that looks a bit odd and alien to us, considering it's set three generations into the future, Mars is a combination of different things, from a European-style Parliament, with a Spartan-like militarist outlook, and a Big Government project (Terraforming) that wouldn't be out of place in a social democracy, a fascist state or a communist one.
I guess the idea is for us to fill in the blanks and make our own head canon. Vague enough so that we can't easily decide on who to root for.
I think you are actually looking into it to much. I have an alternative explanation for all the evidence you brought up.
They are a militaristic republic similar to the US or Israel. One that is aggressive, somewhat authoritarian, but ultimately not a dictatorship.
First of all, its stressed that the reason Mars builds better ships is because they have better scientists.
By nature, scientific pursuit is easier in a free or democratic society. If you are an elite scientist in the pre-ring sol system, you would likely have the choice to live on Earth or Mars.
Earth, for all its problems is clearly shown to be democratic.
So why would skilled scientists choose to stay on mars if there wasn't some sort of freedom or individual rights?
Secondly, all the militaristic observations you have made could easily be explained by the existential fear the society faces.
Fear is a great motivator, and democracies that face existential threats tend to toughen up (UK under Churchill, US during Cold war.)
The police interactions we saw do suggest that the state is heavy-handed, and has a high preference towards order.
But we already knew that from seeing how their military functions. The question here is, after the arrest, is the suspect given due process?
And it is never shown that they aren't.
Finally, we see a bit on how Mars faces a crisis. The government didn't appear to suppress info on the unemployment crisis on Mars.
It also didn't seem to prevent people from leaving. If Mars really was a dictatorship, they would revoke exit visas, and prevent their skilled workers from leaving.
The books tell us the MCR is a democracy. At one point they transport the Martian prime minister, and he gets voted out of power while he is on Earth.
Can someone tell me who is the head of the MCR of Mars? At the end of season 5, Avasarala is the UN Secretary General of Earth, and now that the Belters' OPA is in disarray, Marcos Inaros is running things.
Last time we saw a leader, it was Martian Defense Minister Pyotr Korshunov.
Sure, Mars isn’t the most libertarian place around, but it’s still a democracy. You do get authoritarian nations with democracies, and I feel the reason why Mars is authoritarian is more cultural than political.
As a citizen of an "authoritarian nation with democracy". I would argue, that no authoritarian nation is actually democratic. And no geographical or cultural excuse justifies the blatant abuse of power that comes with the lack of true alternance of power via elections and the true separation of powers.
@@LordSesshaku also, you get democracies with authoritarian elements. There’s a lot of grey area. Key is free and fair elections of course. But could also entail policing, freedom of press, freedom of speech.
@@blacklite911 Actually no. Free and fair elections are not enough. That's how Napoleon, Hitler, Putin, Kirchner, Maduro and Mussollini came to power.
A democracy requires:
- True separation of powers
- Viable alternation of power.
- Solid independent institutions that are not controlled by a single power or party.
Take Argentina for instance. You have (for now) "free and fair elections". But:
- The electoral system is designed to favor one party, garanteeing a win with less than 51% of votes.
- All unions respond to that single party, making sure that even if said party looses the election, the elected goverment has to face constant labour issues and labour strikes.
- The Judicial System is full of party elected judges and attorneys that constantly muddle with all trials on said party corruption history
- The Universities are mostly occupied by party members that actively indoctrinate party doctrine, going as far as having pledged to vote for that party in the 2015 election.
- The Congress is essentially dominated by that single party, having full and permanent control of the Senate, thanks to feudal-like States controlled by the same Party, and even Governor for the past 30 years, plus total control of the House, thanks to the artificial creation of "independent parties" that exist solely to divide the opposition and actually end up voting for the main party in all key laws.
- Finally said party actively spends effort and resources in controlling all media newspapers and channels possible.
Author of this video doesn't understand that there is a difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism.
Any regime can be totalitarian and that "any" includes a democracy. The same is not correct for authoritarian policies, e.g. direct democracy of greek type can't be authoritarian simply because the way of its implementation makes it impossible. In the same time, despite not being authoritarian, the same ancient greek democracies were examples of the most totalitarian regimes that ever existed in history. In fact, a direct democracy with simple majority voting is the most totalitarian system which humanity could possibly implement. If the majority decided to outcast or execute you, or enforce some ridiculous policy, then nothing and nobody will protect you from that. Not even theoretically, like in absolute monarchy, where monarch is above law and therefore has a power to grant you unconditional pardon or revoke any unfair legislation by his own sovereign will.
That is why Aristotle considered democracy as one of twisted forms of government, placing it in the same category with oligarchy and tiranny.
I have to declare my bias because I actually really like the Martian society shown in the series (Well at least the initial seasons before the decline in seasons 4+). There is a shared vision which people seem to buy in to. There is some bigotry and elitism, however I feel the latter is earned as they have a tradition of superior technology and a well trained military. There is a sense of be the best you can be. In the Terraforming projects they are proud to devote their lives to a legacy which they may never see.
We don't see any evidence of elections so it may be a dictatorship, however if it us it does not look all that oppressive. People are free to leave. One can argue that military service is oppressive but this does exist in many democratic countries. I think it's unfair to call the police corrupt as this is seen in the decline of Martian society. We never see the police in the earlier seasons so it is difficult to make a comparison.
It is also worth looking at what is happening in the world right now. Many countries are forcing their citizens to remain indoors. Businesses are banned from operating and people are forced to wear masks in many situations. In some countries (UK) it is now illegal to leave the country in most cases. At least Martians can leave if they want to.
If you think the MCR is a dictatorship you should look at your own country and ask the same question. (Not necessarily directed at this RUclipsr but everyone reading this in 2021)
Absolutely absurd analogy of Martian authoritarianism to present-day pandemic response of curtailing public interactions. Institutionalized and perpetually reproducing constraints on civil rights as an existential standard is 'hardly' comparable to the specific and an unprecedented response to a medical emergencies with mounting corpses -- a response whose civil penalties are largely unarticulated and scarcely enforced, and thus broadly ignored.
If you’re seriously conflating temporary civil restrictions instituted to combat a global pandemic to dictatorship, a visit to Sane Town might be in order.
@@michaelhall2709 I would ask how you define temporary. 2 weeks was the initial timeline. This has been massively exceeded. When government officials are asked about an end date they don't provide one. They say they will be led by data, but when the data supports lifting of restrictions they increase the restrictions (this is from a UK perspective where we have daily deaths in the low double digits and parliament voted to extend measures by another 6 months). Imagine if I employed you and due to 'temporary' cash flow problems I was unable to pay your wages. Then you noticed that revenues had significantly increased, how long would you wait before asking about your wages? Also whenever a dictatorship is enacted, most of the time there will be a 'good' reason for it. Are you not concerned that the goalposts keep moving and that laws are at times are being introduced arbitrarily?
@@crazytown1146 What’s your worry, exactly, Looney Town - that your despotic government wants to keep you indoors, and masked, forever? You admit that the Martian government is bigoted and authoritarian but think it’s “justified” because they have better technology? Really?
As an American I suppose I can take cold comfort in the fact that we’re not the only stupid polity in the world when it comes to politics. If you’re truly concerned about your civil liberties you might consider that the British are amongst the most surveilled people on earth. That you have a world-class clown as your Prime Minister; that your political system is almost as dysfunctional as that in the United States; that you have the growing levels of inequality and nativism that inevitably lead to fascism. Those are real-world concerns, as opposed to rational measures taken to combat a once-in-a-century pandemic. Grow up, please.
@@michaelhall2709 I worry about the direction of travel and the increasing authoritarianism for a virus which mostly kills the very old or the very sick. This doesn't mean do nothing but a more targeted approach would have made more sense. Plus laws which are enacted in haste in a crisis can be difficult to reverse later. If you read what I said about the Martians I said the elitism was earned not the bigotry. Also worth mentioning the majority of people on Earth live on basic and often have to wait decades for training. I think it better to have goals than to just sit on welfare as there is nothing to strive for. I too am concerned about the level of surveillance, however this does not affect my day to day existence to a great extent. Besides if you use social media or engage in society in any way you're under some level of surveillance. I have no problem with governments prioritising their citizens over non-citizens. I will admit throwing in the covid issue on this MCR video is inappropriate but at the time seemed relevant.
To my mind, the Martian way of life is certainly structured. In the scene where we see the group of children manipulating a hologram of a piece of equipment, I remember it specifically described as a valve assembly, which tells me that Mars values a STEM education to the point where it is integral to children's play. Also, as a "congressional republic," somebody has to elect/appoint the members of this congress, which means some form of electorate. Even with the broad police powers we see invoked, the people appear content within their society, so if the government IS a dictatorship, it is a benign one. Keep in mind that part of the reason that Duarte led the Laconia diaspora was because he felt that Mars had grown "too soft" and wanted a "more disciplined society."
The UN settled Mars and they still called it a colony. It’s like they wanted to eventually have Mars rebel or something. Jesus. Make it a nation-state/administrative region ffs.
And loose all the resources?
"Colony" is a sensitive term, but it can also be used neutrally. Even today we talk about "colonizing" space. Perhaps "settling" should be the preferred, less loaded term?
All Martian’s will be relocated to Sector Planet E3 in the ring. We have accomplished our goal and hope that all Martians join us in understanding that the future is at the Ring gates. We will be relocating all Martian citizens based on need and sector.
The Martian Government thanks all citizens for their hard work and dedication.
i just can't understand one thing: why do you only have 1k subs? Seriously, you've got a great presence and style.
i wouldn't be able to say the name of the person at the top of the MCR, if there even is a single person the "congress" reports to.
Definitely authoritarian, but free in many other ways not usually associated with oppressive governments. Like freedom of expression and more tolerance for anti-government sentiment out in the open. There's a line of course. And though it's very much an inconvenience to be called out for inspection, the martians seem to prefer it that way; feeling safe if you know there's nothing the authorities want from you and that they're there for your protection runs deep with them, it feels like.
And although the boots on the ground are dangerous and deadly, they seem to take a sort-of light touch with anything not directly on their radar, enabling more general trust for their methods..? maybe. Just some headcanon and based on my memory of the books, which admittedly isn't as clear as it probably should be.
Great vid, wish it was longer!
Mars is much smaller and has a smaller population than Earth and thus had to be authoritarian to get their ALL their citizens to be at top productivity / performance where 1 Martian is better than any Earther.
They didn't have freedom for luxury like Earthers.
It's too efficiently run not to be one.
Dictatorships usually are way less effective than free societies due to corruption.
In the books it's pretty clear that Mars is a democracy. In particular it's what it's called a parliamentary democracy, which in the real world is the most common kind of democracy. A parliamentary democracy has a Prime Minister elected by a legislature. Examples of this would be Canada and the United Kingdom. In the book one Martian Prime Minister Nathan Smith is voted out and replaced by Emily Richards.
I suspect that Congressional in the MCR refers to their legislature being called Congress like in the US and not like in the UK and Canada.
I think we get a distorted image of the MCR because we see less of the internal divisions within the MCR while the divisions of Earth and the Belt are central to the story. It's not until Duarte becomes a central character that we see a major split in Martian society.
Also many of the main characters in the Martian society are in the military so we assume wrongly that Mars might be some sort of military dictatorship.
If we knew nothing about the United States and we saw a story told only from the perspective of the US military and no reference to electoral politics we might wrongly assume that the US is a military dictatorship.
How can any society running in enclosed settlements in a hostile environment NOT be basically authoritarian? That's one of the undersung elements of space colonization that is rarely referred to. Heinlein predicted it more than sixty years ago.
Wasn't Heinlein's theme in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress that Luna was a Libertarian/Anarchist paradise (albeit in later books it started to centralize and bureaucratize)?
@@BNRmatt Anarchism invariably leads to authoritarianism. Witness the French Revolution... or California! In the case of an inclosed society, a chaotic phase would be over quite quickly. Survival would mandate it.
@@stevenpilling3773 If you think California is Anarchist, you're clearly using a very different definition.
As an American, for me its all about the "Administration" thats elected in ANY democratic republic/society
Weve had PLENTY of president's and their Administrations back in the day be viewed (both for the time and today)as "authoritarian" in nature one way or another but we can either vote them out or wait out the last days of their terms
Peoples Republic of Mars
What I’m missing about Mars in this season and last is that they’re making a narrative that Mars is in a big path of recent decline (they mention a lot of jobs going away which is causing more people to become corrupt and deal in the black market), but for the life of me I don’t remember if they gave a cause of the catastrophic sudden economic downturn
Mars' economy is based on 2 things. The military and the terra forming projects. This makes it really fragile. Since the opening of the ring gates. Many people see that terraforming mars is not needed anymore, because there are hundreds of habitable worlds out there. So people have moved out of mars and gave less attention to it. Specifically the terra forming projects which are one of the bases of the economy. If one base of the economy goes down or is on the path of going down. The economy itself starts to decline and crumble.
@@mohammadalghouthani1850 oh yea, I remember now! Thanks
@@mohammadalghouthani1850 their was also reductions of the military you actualy see Bobby salvaging components out of a Assult ship in one scene.
The US actualy whent into resesion in 1946 after the large scale mobilisation of industry for war production was ended.
for me I initially felt mars or MCR was just a militaristic republic
Mars gained it's independence around 2213 and the show takes place around 2350 so there is a 137 year gap so a lot could have changed from the original Martian view on society when they broke away the UN, Mars isn't a dictatorship but rather more authoritarian. If they were not so militaristic then the terraforming project would have been completed sooner. It kept getting delayed and having set backs due to their war mongering nature. Having Earth be a boot on them for nearly 200 years since they were colonized made them resentful. So they wanted to get back at Earth and become the dominant force in the system.
They were in constant fear of Earth taking over them so they had to defend themselves. They would've basically been became Belters if they didn't have better weapons.
Mars is like China. Authoritative, militaristic, labour focused. People's republic of Mars.
Really, really wrong. Modern china is an amalgam of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist and Confucian principles, controlled by an almost State Capitalist economic model. Mars' economy is strongly centrally controlled, but lacks the other crucial elements
Well, it's called the RED planet for a reason... ;)
More like the Japanese Empire in TNO.
@@exmachinz can you elaborate on the crucial elements missing. Because honestly, the interpretation of those ideals can depend on who you ask. So in laymen terms, what policies are differently presented in the Martian depiction and China
Also, has advanced technology and is gradually outpacing their rivals in terms of innovation. Though Mars is arguably much closer to a "classically" fascist country like 3rd Reich Germany than it is to authoritarian China. China is ironically less militaristic whereas a huge part of Mars' economy depends on their military-industrial complex. China depends to a lesser extent on foreing industrial contracts, not on domestic military contracts.
As shown in the show, as soon as the "Cold War" arms race stops, Mars starts to take a socio-economic nosedive. China does not depend on a cold war, quite the opposite in fact; its model basically required the cold war to stop in order to start gaining momentum.
While I'm sure there would some level of corruption in the martian police. I feel it should be pointed out that the detective used as an example if I recall correctly became that way recently due to events that kind of killed the goal the majority of martians were working toward. So corruption may not have been as extensive before.
I find it strange that they totally abandoned the terraforming project because if they succed and terrafom this planet, then they could do it on other worlds or if not, the information gathered from Mars is valuable for other projects.
Or just cover the planet in Domes and call it a day.
I disagree with everything you said here, and the reason I disagree is I have read the books, and in the books you get a far more balanced perspective. Since only the books are canon, and the show is made from the books, I will defer at all times to the books. Mars is NOT authoritarian, that would Earth. In the books it's clearly established that Mars is a representative democracy, or if you will, a republic. It's members are elected, and it's Prime Minister is chosen by the elected representatives. Prime ministers can and do get removed for corruption or basic inept leadership like a real government by a simple vote of "no confidence" which triggers snap elections. This happened to Martian Prime Prime Minister Nathan Smith who was replaced by Emily Richards because Nathan Smith failed to prevent Winston Duarte from stealing 1/3 of the Martian Naval fleet. Furthermore, the police raids with alarms going off in the apartment and people just being hauled off? Purely a show fiction, this never once happened in the books. Now if you have all read the novella "Drive", it tells the story of Solomon Epstein in the early days of Mars. It's clear that the martians viewed Earth as a completely out of touch, corrupt, bloated government where the representatives in the UN General Assembly don't actually respond to the interests of citizens, and even worse Mars has no representation whatsoever because they're a colony, yet Mars is required to give all of it's resources to support these corrupt lazy welfare queens, with 50% on basic, wasting away, while those at the top have all the resources. The straw that broke the camel's back was when the UN passed the equivalent of the stamp act and demanded Mars close all of it's ship yards and buy its ships from the Bush ship yards. This was their intolerable act and Mars, taking the United States as it's example rebelled. Note Mars could have formed any type of government it wanted, a Kingdom, an Empire, but they chose a constitutional republic with the rights of citizens enshrined in the constitution. Martians are militaristic because if they waste any resources like your average Earth taker, they die, the teraforming project dies. Every Martian citizen happily serves in the Armed forces because this is their home and they take pride in serving. Martians take their citizenship seriously, much like the Terran Federation in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers because everyone has a stake in martian society. On earth, only 50% of the public has a stake in society and even among the employed, only the 1/10th of 1% have a real stake in earth. Calling Mars a dictatorship and praising the globalist UN as some sort of beacon of democracy is like the pot calling the kettle black. The only reason Mars ever had corrupt cops (another invention of the show) was because the ring gates made Mars unnecessary. The whole purpose for Mar's existence died once the ring gates opened. Had the ring gates not been discovered, Mars would have carried on, completed their terraforming project and eventually gave the UN the ass kicking it deserved. SMH Unbelievable with people like Erinwright in the UN that you could ever think the UN are the good guys.
By Season 3, the façade starts to slip. We see Mars for what it really is, a decadent society in decline no different from Earth but at least Earth makes no bones about what they are while Mars has long since touted itself as this advanced, prosperous state but we see the engorged military machine is what kept unemployment down now that war is a distant prospect and the Ring gates are opened, a new gold rush began and the dream of a habitable Mars is a dead one just like the planet.
Mars may not be the ideal Star Spangled Country we associate by our contemporary Western cultures, but I don't think it's Nazi-grade tyranny. I think with the MCRN they have a sentiment of distancing away from the ideals of Earth that we value as the criteria of freedoms because of a long standing view that it was those ideals that lead to Earth being tarnished ecologically and socially. Mars was colonized by the best scientists because maybe Earth didn't value what they hoped to give humanity, other than the same repetitive cycle of consumption. So while it may not be a free-nation, I think their hearts are in the right place.
The whole video makes less sense simply because the author piles up all the terms that contradict each other. Or not. For example, let's look at the USA during the Second World War:
Was the United States a Democracy? Basic, yes. The entire political system of the United States was based on the principle of collective governance through a system of bourgeois representative democracy.
Was the United States a Dictatorship? Basic, yes. Even without considering the fact that any state under the existing class system is a dictatorship of one ruling class, suppressing another class(es), the United States passed wartime laws that significantly limited rights and freedoms of citizens. Starting from state censorship and ending with the sending of the Asian minority to concentration camps.
Was the United States a Authoritarian? Basic, yes. In wartime, in the process of building a command chain system, when all decisions a) must be strictly controlled from top to bottom and b) be able to adapt as quickly as possible to a changing situation, the role of one person at the head of the system, the leader, becomes the most important.
And the qualities of this person are decisive, which invariably causes the adjustment of the entire political system to the ever-increasing authority of this person. That inevitably causes the growth of political power concentrated in the hands of this person, loyal to this person, as well as those who refer to the authority of this person.
Which personality was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who is absolutely legitimate, from the point of view of the American political system, for the fourth time participated in the presidential elections in the United States.
Your reasoning makes no sense. They live in communal terraforming domes. To really determine if they are oppressive: We need to know can you leave your dome? Can you establish your own dome? My guess the goal is to establish new domes.
Watching S4 the omnipresent propaganda on Mars - Focus, Save water, get your Civilian Assessments in on time, reminded me of the propaganda within the Psi Corps in Babylon 5. Heavy handed and more totalitarian than authoritarian. They want the citizens to believe correctly.
Their lives depend on it. They cannot afford to make any mistakes as Mars would be unforgiving. Any society in such a hostile environment would have to be so in order to survive as long as scarcity is the norm.
I think the MCR isn't quite a dictatorship or totalitarian government, but more of a hybrid system, like modern Turkey or Thailand. The military and police have an outsized influence and freedoms are limited.
I think the strongest evidence you present is the "police action" announcement. That whole thing just reeks of authoritarianism.
Two other pieces of evidence (one if which occurred after you published this video):
1) The only "civilian" government official we get to know is Minister of Defense Korshunov, who is a retired Marine. Though it's becoming increasingly common in the US lately, there's a good reason Secretaries of Defense in the US are supposed to be civilians. It's also unusual, but not too weird, that a diplomatic negotiation is being headed by a Defense Minister, as opposed to the Foreign Office or equivalent. It's also striking that, in the negotiations between Earth and Mars, the only Martians who speak are Korshunov and military officers.
[Seasons 4 and 5 spoiler warning!]
2) In Seasons 4 and 5, we see that elements of the military are able to sell massive amounts of military hardware, even entire warships, out the back door, even as the MCRN shrinks. That suggests that civilian oversight is weak. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Duarte faction was complicit in the bombing of Parliament, or even undertook it on their own initiative.
Good video, you made some interesting points here.
Yo your hashtag is #The.
Thanks for the tip!
@@SciFiDeepDive No problem mate, great content.
Thanks!
Labor and business needs to create value. Government shipbuilding and the terraforming project is going to consume a great deal of value, while producing little immediate benefit. Unfortunately, it's that immediate benefit that is needed for the worker to put food on the table. Unless Mars is a near-perfect communist society, which it clearly isn't, there needs to be far more non-government work that produces significant excess value so that excess value can then be used to provide the government service, such as terraforming. That means that there needs to be a significant economy that does something other than terraform or make things for government. Spending up to 30% of the economy on the military broke the Soviet Union. The imminent threat of death is a bit stronger on Mars, and so there will be more cooperation and more personal sacrifice, but even so there are limits. That means there needs to be something that people buy and sell. On Babylon 5, when we meet Marcus the ranger, he described Earth as the place that sent books and vids and took 20%, so he didn't care much about it. Until Marco Inaros came by, there was no place for Mars to export warships, so the economy had to have other large sectors.
I don't see Mars has any natural resources that others factions lack so all they can export is high quality industrial products ( they are full of intellectual after all) and intellectual property (same reasons). If the Ring didn't exist and the Terra forming project is finished, the gain would outweigh the cost because by that point, Mars would be the only place in the solar system that still have empty livable land. It is wierd that they don't have a government bond to sell.
"Mars im wa pashang dictatorship, Beltalowda sasa deting fo DECADES now!!!"
I think it was apparent from the get-go that the MCR is a pretty authoritarian government, if one that falls short of being an outright dictatorship. (Admiral Sauveterre, who’s damned impressive in his War College presentation, is ultimately revealed to be an outright fascist.) Just my opinion, but I’ve always thought it was a subtext of the show that regimentation and authoritarianism are often the price a society pays for everyone having a common goal, e.g. the terraforming of Mars.
And no, I don’t think any of that makes them, in the eyes of the narrative or its authors, the “bad guys.” All of the societies and factions portrayed on the show are pretty wanting in various ways. They have good reason to fear and distrust one another.
Is Mars a dictatorship? Well, it doesn’t have a dictator, so no. You can’t gave a Kingdom without a king (or queen), you can’t have a theocracy without a god, and you can’t have a dictatorship without a dictator.
Is Mars authoritarian? Arguably somewhat. But authoritarian states are not the same as dictatorships. Africa is full of dictatorships that do not map onto what we would recognize as authoritarian states, simply because the dictator rules the capital and the major cities, but has almost zero power in the countryside, which means that ninety percent of the citizens never see any authoritarianism in their lives. They may not have much freedom, but again, that’s neither authoritarianism nor dictatorship.
I felt that you were trying to ask if Mars were fascist, but didn’t want to use that word because they didn’t have a cult of personality or a special salute, as if that (as so many seem to think today) were the substance of fascism. The economy seems to resemble a French dirigiste model, and the idea of exposing middle school kids to potential career tracks is actually pretty standard (as I understand it) in the United Kingdom.
So is Mars authoritarian? Well, if so, no one seems to dislike it enough to change it, so the government appears to derive its just powers from the consent of the governed.
republic have noting to do whit representation republic implays a distribution of power in ceparated branches. A lot of republics were aristocratic not representative or democratic (there are almost no democracies in the world).
mars is america. they say something to that effect in the drive novella.
the corrupting of mars in the last season is a forshadowing to something coming up. probably not next season but the one after it.
How about the fact that on earth most are poor and have no jobs? Mars gave jobs to everyone. You were not forced into a job by government, you got to choose. It was stated in season 1 multiple times by Earth politicians that only reason Mars has military is to protect themselves and that put there terraforming back 1 century thanks to Earth being aggressive. Mars culture is based on survival and goal to make Mars livable like Earth with no pollution. This video is distasteful and leaves out much.
WRONG republic simple means no monarch.
China and US have no monarch so are both republics
Canada and UK are monarchies but have more representation in government than china
I've not read the books but to complain about police being corrupt is to not understand the show. Mars police were not corrupt - it never occurs to Bobby that they could be, it's a shock to her when she realizes they are. It is odd to argue police are corrupt and leave out the talk she has with the ring leader as he explains why he stopped being that good Martian they were expected to be. Society was aligned to terraform Mars. Everyone believed in that mission. They sacrificed for that goal. But having thousands of new worlds within their grasp breaks that alignment and faith there is that garden for everyone.
Mars is what Earth needed to be. Visions of an empire need strong centralized government.
Democracy... that’s not a way to govern... the old Greeks had it... and when it is use as electoral tool it only works wrong: tyranny of the majority, unless checked by rules and regulations like America does with it’s Electoral College
Republic, a for form of government... an integral part would be the separation of powers: rule, create laws, judge the other two... or Executive, Legislative, Judicial. Goes well with democracy but can function with the less amount of it.
Fascism, another form of government, “there is nothing outside the State, The State is Everything, One cannot go Against the State”... it has little to do with lack of freedom and not use democracy too. It is as good as the government itself: can be good, like the British Empire... or can be bad, like the Japanese Empire... Italy under “Il Duce” was in between (problem was “Il Duce made bad friends”, the Germans).
People who use “Fascist” as a bad word don’t understand the type of government... Republic is better, more solid, but Fascism is not bad.
Dictatorship, another form of government, like “the British Empire before the Carta Magna”... it can use any for of government, from Fascist to Socialism to Monarchist to Communism. So it can be a good thing,... but usually it’s not. Stalin, Idi Amin, Francisco Franco, etc
And the Nazis... national socialist... a Socialist/Communist regime... production at the hands of the proletariat and also the State/Party... the ethnic nonsense was a negative... and it was almost all of the above, except a Republic ... do the math.
They hated the Soviets (Communism), they hated the Republican Spaniards (Socialist loyal to the King and Catholicism)... but then again all Marxist hate the others like them: The Left Eats Itself... Always!
Sorry I had to write that... I have been studying this nonsense thru historic and current political situations. Woke Culture, it’s eating itself... my younger sister has her brin washed, and nobody can do anything about it other than wait for her to wake up... NOT WOKE!!!!!! 😆
Rules and Regulations, for the government... not for the people. Freedom is for us, not for them... anyone who says otherwise is dangerous.
Worse! We as human being are all racists by definition... “an evolutionary tool for survival”, like superstition
But one, with the use of reason and logic and empathy, must control those and avoid believing what’s not .... human beings are not inferior based on “appearance and looks”, they could be for other Merit Based facts... same for believing a thunder is a good, or the one from those holy books.
But I digress
Cheers!
Does the electoral college actually works.