Another great video with key points. It highlights the fact that in blindtests the most important aspect is matching levels. 99 % of the times people say "they hear differences" is due to unmatched levels.
You are so right! and then there is a small drop off when you stream Amazon to your bluetooth streamer. I noticed that the music didn't sound as robust when I stream AMAZON to Bluesound node. I thought it was the amplifier at first because when I just went from computer files via ethernet everything sounded much more exciting. It's the volume that is inherent to the service. YOU ARE SO RIGHT. None-the-less, STILL I have to say music straight from computer thru ethernet sounds distinct, live, faster and more present. Makes me wonder what is REALLY a good DAC. ????
I just cancelled Tidal and now on Qobuz. Qobuz sounds better and doesn't force music on me that I don't want to hear. Amazon has a great catalog but I have regularly busted their service downloading low res songs. My opinion based on endless testing is that they do this by giving you "best available" and then they change what is "available" to keep their streaming bandwidth costs down. I've had high res albums download nearly 1 song per 1-3 seconds and that's a dead giveaway that it's not sending you high res music. And Amazon doesn't currently show you the resolution of the file being played. Spotify is just crap. Pandora is a great resource for radio and music discovery - they try to actually play you what you want to hear and it leads to finding great music you've not been exposed to yet.
You are so right about levels. I was comparing 2 DAC’s A-B switching between a Pontus and a Burson. Both in preamp bypass. The 2-3 db difference was small so I figured I could factor it in my assessment. I thought the Burson was much better, clearer and then I decided to take the time to level match them. The A-B comparison was so different. The Burson was not so much better anymore. Night and day comparison for only 2db. Whatever I thought my ears and brain could compensate for, it couldn’t 😬
You win one of the best comments on my channel. You're the type of audiophile I admire. You are intellectually honest and test your own hearing. In the end, you also realize how that philosophy paid off for you and helped you make better decisions. Kudos!
@@AudiophileJunkie Thanks. I realized I wasn’t as “hearing” smart as I thought even after 30 years in HiFi LOL 😂 On another note I should be getting my minidsp SHD in a day or two. Can’t wait!!!
Recently, I find that Tidal (not the MQA version) is less expensive than Qobuz, and does not push the Rap / Hiphop music like it apparently did when it started up.
I had Tidal and Qobuz and couldn’t tell a bit of difference between the two with 44.1 kHz. I hated Qobuz’s user interface and love Tidal’s so I stuck with Tidal.
Questions! Should the Node be left powered up even when you're not going to be using for a Few days? Compared to low draw of things like Phono amps which don't have power Switches? Should you leave your Power on to your Power Conditioners all the Time and lastly how do I know I'm not sending signal through my WiFi even when I don't have the Tidal App opened up, should you sign out when not using ? What's peoples opinion on these as I am a Rookie to Streaming, only a few weeks into this Awesome Listening! Thanks Everyone
I'm in the non-MQA camp after goldensound's video and subsequent articles. Speaking towards your discussion about settings minutia, there is a small setting in Roon whereby if you want complete disengagement from MQA (though technically) within Roon (it does the first unfolding). I believe it's in your output devices 'advanced settings' that you have to select and scroll down through and then disable. I'm stuck on Tidal unfortunatley because I live in the great white north lol.
Yeah..a lot of people are turned off by MQA. I think Tidal is still riding the bandwagon for now and some find it hard to not use the MQA version so your tip may be helpful to those with Roon and Tidal.
@@AudiophileJunkie You mentioned Adele’s track/album was compressed after the Roon volume leveling reduced the volume by -11db. If the track is too loud, does that mean it’s compressed? I’m just trying to understand what volume leveling is indicating when it increases or decreases the volume of a given track or album? How do you know when a track is compressed even if it is considered a high-resolution file? Adele’s song “Easy” sounds like she is screaming through my speakers. It’s clean coming through my Spatial Audio speakers, but it’s in my face even at a reasonable volume level. Great video! Thanks
Great question and I'm not an official expert on this, so parts of what I said could be confusion or not the correct way of explaining. However, in short, the leveling won't fix the compression, but it does make the motivation behind it irrelevant (ie raise the loudness of a track over others). The leveler will normalize your playback to approximately all the same volume. I've noticed 2 sound quality advantages to employing the leveler even though it's not totally fixing compression. 1. Almost all songs sound best when you play them at a certain volume...in a certain room...and to your exact tastes. When you don't have volume leveling and listening to a bunch of different songs in a row like a playlist, you will get songs with different leveling required to be equal. This saves you the differences of matching with your volume control which is meticulous and can be less precise. This leads to an overall improvement of your listening experience, so it's not an improvement in the prototypical sense, but it can be very significant. 2. The leveling acts as a headroom management for digital clipping. Roon will show you that some tracks include digital clipping. The leveler almost always REDUCES gain so it becomes a quasi headroom management tool to stop digital clipping on certain tracks. Any other improvements noted in the sound could be related to the extra headroom the leveler provides over the normal headroom management that is typically fixed at -3db for most people. However I can't prove that. It's just my intuition based on what my ears are telling me. Hope that helps...as I understand and learn more, I'll try to do more videos. It may turn out some things change from my understanding at this stage.
@@AudiophileJunkie Yes, I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate the detailed response! I used the Roon volume leveling feature for a long time for the reasons you mentioned and enjoyed it. But, I decided to stop using it because I wanted to avoid altering the music file in any way. I will turn the feature back on because I do prefer the same volume as I go from track to track. For clarity, I’m still trying to understand how do I determine if a recording is compressed as you mentioned Adele’s album was compressed? I thought a recording that was below 16/44 was considered compressed? Adele’s new album is recorded at 24/44, so that’s were the compression comment confuses me? Thanks!
Yeah... You hit the nail on the head... That's something people overlook big time. Plus, people often ignore the obvious difference that we all have in preferences for listening volume. Thus, if any gear, software, or variable plays the music closer to your ideal volume preference, you will get a sense that it sounds "better". Thus, it's imperative to level match and that becomes very difficult with things like streaming and software where do many variables can be injected for other benefits.
I use Tidal and Cannot comment on MQA or the other services. A major sound difference I recently experienced was having a streamer that could output usb to my DAC. All I can say is WOW! I guess it’s the Holo Spring 3’s usb interface is amazing! Maybe USB sounds better on all DACs I can’t say.
The Holo is a great piece. Generalizations are hard to make with interfaces because each DAC can have a "preferential" input depending on the design philosophy and parts used by the designer. USB has probably come the farthest in improvement such that it's now preferred (other than I2S natively going to the chip in some DACs). Optical and spdif probably have more SQ issues on certain DACs, so you're on the right track...kudos on finding what works best for you.
I read in many audio circles that usb is inherently noisy. All I know is to me it sounds as clean and open as any other input. I don't hear any limitations whatsoever.
Yes...I have a video with some of the nice features of Roon, but the biggest one is the ability to use their EQ if you don't have that capability. Also, it gives you the option to add headroom to avoid digital clipping or loudness normalization like I featured in this video. Plus, there's tons of advantages from the GUI side and managing your library of hard drive files too. Lyrics, other versions of the song, background on the artist, etc... Are all advantages offered by Roon, so I would do the free trial and see if it makes sense for you.
It depends on your software environment. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… Of course you can use upnp (or room) with Qobuz which to my ears is the only way to listen to Qobuz, and then it sounds a lot better than mqa, but most people don’t know this and assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software environment makes a bigger difference than file in my experience across multiple systems. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂
Right now using Roon with Qbuz. Drives me nuts as sporadic says qbuz media loading slowly on some high end flaq songs. I find the lower end songs play fine. The connection is with wifi versus dedicated hardwire for internet so maybe file size is just too large but then other times it plays fine. My next upgrade is DCS Bartok with it's own ring technology so I do not need Roon. As for current Roon setting I was told to leave those off and do adjusts with my equipment which we RTA adjusted along with sound panels. My system is very high end so the lower flaq files just sound like trash but the high end flaq files sound like they are just there in front of you singing center stage with the band. I do find occasionally a flaw recording at lower rating sounds really good. My music place told me it's the engineers recording and some are done better than others.
Interesting experience...I think a lot of your issues seem to be due to Wi-Fi... Is try hard wire. I use a mesh extender with hardwire from that and never have any issues, so that may work. I have a friend who has the Bartok and will be doing a video with him soon, so that may be helpful as well.
What are you using as a server/streamer/player? I have an Innuos Zen MkIII, which is a little glitchy at times, but I get my best sound quality, by FAR, using Qobus through Roon (running in experimental mode on the Innuos.) I dropped Tidal in favor of Qubuz because I can definitely hear the improvement on Qubuz's Hi-Res files versus Tidal. BTW, I'm listening through my GR-Research NX-Oticas. I found your videos on building the NX-Tremes very helpful. Fortunately, I did not encounter any of the material problems you did. I love mine.
I build my own servers because I've looked under the hood of these "audiophile" servers and wasn't impressed. They are also glitchy as you mentioned because they stick them in cases not really designed for their purpose. They can overheat easy and on-board wi-fi is sketchy in those devices. They also try to get too fancy with cramming useless outputs or trying to put a linear power supply where it makes no sense (ie before the motherboard which has switching power management anyway so you gain nothing.) Plus they don't give video options which is critical for me as I featured in a previous video and will feature again soon. The difference you noted in Qobuz is interesting. I'm wondering if it's the difference between MQA on tidal versus non-MQA on qobuz. So much on Tidal is MQA now that it's almost turned into a format war. Gratz on your GR Research build. Glad you didn't have any issues. I've had to replace 4 drivers to-date so I definitely got unlucky with a bad batch. Enjoy!
I would not know how to get involved with Roon, I’m not computer smart. But in my basic AB comparisons like for like I can hear that my Apple Music is a bit inferior to my Tidal, and my Qobuz is a touch cleaner than my Tidal. Apple Music is the better UI but the others are very usable. I’m finding that Qobuz does not have all the albums I look for, Tidal is better in that respect. If Apple Music sounded a little better I would stick with it but I might jump ship to one of the others.
I have Tidal and Amazon Music HD - I found the same with Qobuz when I tried it out for a month. The sound is a bit brighter and crisper than Tidal or Amazon HD. But for the cost, I can't justify the extra cost for Qobuz.
It shouldn't impact dynamics any more than the volume control, headroom management, etc... It's basically the same thing, but takes away the advantage mastering engineers wanted to exploit by normalizing everything you're listening to automatically versus manually. You also gain more headroom (since it's the same as headroom management in Roon) on almost all recordings because you'll rarely find a song where it ADDS gain. There might be a few songs where you have to watch out for adding gain and potential clipping, but otherwise you should be fine. You could argue that it technically drops resolution, but it's nothing to the level of being audible. The main thing is that you can turn it on and off to hear for yourself. You just have to manually level match after you turn it off to have a true comparison, but it should be identical or slightly better.
When I started to watch this and the term "loudness" was used at first I thought you were discussing the Fletcher-Munson curve (applied either digitally or analog), so I was a bit confused, as in typical audiophile land "loudness" has been used for Fletcher-Munson, and companies still add "Loudness" controls to their preamps. But of course you're talking about level normalization for broadcast purposes, which has now been adopted for streaming (though the standards are really for broadcasting.) Sigh... I wish terminology was more standardized across the community interested in sound. I prefer to use the term Sound Level Normalization. Anyway, yes, your point about evaluating audio set-ups without matching levels is quite valid. So many times I've come across videos here on RUclips where someone claims set-up A is better than set-up B but on their RUclips video it is quite clear that the audio levels are not equal. I don't use Roon. On Amazon Music I just tried a track with and without the level normalization switched on and I couldn't hear the difference, perhaps because the track didn't really call for normalization?
Good point about semantics. I used to associate "loudness" with the car audio and 1970s audio systems that had a button to add EQ boosts on the lower end...similar to what you are referring to. The loudness will be track dependent and unfortunately Amazon doesn't tell you how much is removed (or added) per track like Roon. I did find a track where Roon was adding volume even at -16 LUF which is fairly rare, so I bumped up my setting to -19 LUF. In the end, I think that's the one big advantage of Roon versus Amazon. The loudness normalization is fixed for Amazon and you don't know how much/little is being done per track. Plus, you can't control it such that you never add gain. I give credit though to Amazon for toggling loudness normalization "on" by default. It's been a real ear opener to dive into more and definitely improves long listening sessions where you don't have as much volume deltas. On top of that, I still think the added headroom is overall improving the sound too by removing digital clipping. I'll never turn it off in the future.
I have no use for Roon (why deal with the extra layer of software?) nor would I add a PC/laptop into my rig (they sound terrible) I run Qobuz 👑 directly from my Aurender and it’s superb. Tidal/MQA is a scam…Amazon I have zero interest in.
That's fine if you're happy, but the Aurender interface is very primitive compared to Roon (by most people's assessment including mine). An Aurender also gives you no ability to do video like a server can. Not to mention... The price is huge. As far as I can remember using Aurender, it doesn't even have loudness normalization as an option. If not, that's a potentially HUGE negative as I outlined in this video... Both from a SQ perspective and enjoyment of playing a string of songs without mismatched volumes. On top of that, it sabotages those mastering engineers trying to cheat with compression. Again, if you're happy, that's fine, but if you haven't tried Amazon, Roon or the various options offered by them like I have, then you might not realize how much better things can get.
@@AudiophileJunkie The Aurender is fairly simple…which is what I like. It has volume control correction which may not be the same as “normalization”. I’m extremely utilitarian, I don’t mess with room correction software, filters, oversampling, upsampling, MQA, video, none of that stuff. Way too much tweaking complexity for me. If I could do it all over again I’d be 100% vinyl….nevertheless, I dig your subject matter. Interesting stuff. 👍
I totally understand. Simplicity is a huge benefit that makes sense for anyone to consider. I'm hoping to bring more "simplicity" to some of these variables with my videos, but it's still can be either a hassle or fun depending on perspective. LP definitely has some advantages and simplicity that can be attractive, so I hear ya. Nevertheless, I would equate these things I'm talking about as similar to all the nuances that go into setting up a turntable. Some of those nuances can make a big difference.
Can you turn off normalization on all software? Because I don't think compressing audio volume digitally will lead to an audiophile sound. Thats the best thing about CD and SACD, this doesn't happen.
Yes... It's easy to turn off, but you'll learn that the digital volume correction does nothing harmful. In fact, it reduces digital clipping while leveraging the information already in the meta data for the track to provide it to you in a better manner. CD and SACD doesn't even give you this option. It may sound better for other reasons related to your gear, but it's not because of digital volume correction. The obsession with bit perfect reproduction went away long ago once people realized (and technology existed) to improve things.
@@AudiophileJunkie thanks for the response. But are you 100% sure that volume normalization actually removes digital clipping? Because all it's doing is volume balancing. Imaging changing volume while playing a CD that clips. The volume of the receiver has nothing to do with it clipping because the content is already clipped. All volume normalization is doing is actually compressing the dynamic range. Can you confirm this?
It will depend on the track, but most end up reducing the volume and providing the same thing as the digital headroom feature in Roon except it's variable per track based on your setting and the meta data. Yes... It's possible that volume leveling can add gain which would do the opposite, so you can combine it with headroom management OR change the LUF setting for normalization to help address it. Everything involves compromises, but the advantages are heavily weighted in loudness normalization's favor for enjoying a listening session longer than one tune and providing quasi headroom management too.
@@AudiophileJunkie I'd love to see a dynamic range test, SACD vs Roon when using normalized volumes on stream vs the SACD. I just can't believe it's going to be as good for dynamics.
Oh my God you’re so right! Why in the hell when I want to see what is the latest. I get all this hip hop, rap crap! Jesus Tidal! Give us a fucking break! Audiophiles do t give a shit about these skanks and rappers! I’m an audiophile !
That's a fine option, but note that you won't have volume leveling either to account for compression in the raw recording. You will have to set your volume different for each track and also playing the hard media CD won't give you the option to add headroom to prevent digital clipping mastered into many albums. Ideally, you could rip all your CDs to a wav file and then use Roon for volume leveling (or their headroom management feature) to somewhat fix the compression and digital clipping that plagues many recordings.
I am want to get roon because…..well I want it all But all I would add is my live shows Mainly just Crowes & dead. I really only listen to those on long car rides. …there is no way I could ever transfer all my cds to roon. Why would I when I have a sweet ass cd/sacd 2 disc player that I was essentially able to get for free thanks to my escapades as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. So do I try out roon? Yea I will. Really just kinda makes me wish I did not drop sooooo much cheese & time/energy into my vinyl rig essentially for 25 years. It got bad, I was finding random churches to volunteer sound engineer services just to see what they were giving a way. That collection plate goes a long way. Is that stealing??? Those guys who figure out where the money goes for the service should all go With me down below when it’s all said am done. Good wills/thrift stores. Buttering up friends dads who traded in the home audio set up for in wall speakers/sound bar. Bose wave sound touch media player( wich is fucking killer. Don’t let anybody tell ya any different.) cuz the old lady wanted that mid century modern minimalist interior design they ditched the whole set up. With a 3 year old / busting my balls keeping the wife happy so I can listen to music. I am essentially that dad now…..damn. I’ll never part with my cds/vinyl. Few sells along the way trades. With streaming … it’s so easy. Moved my stuff out of the family room for a 65 oled/ klipsch the fives (Huge love hate situation with those speakers BTW, that damn software is such fucking trash for the love of god klipsch sub that shit out to a software company)Sony ubpx 700 4k player(great little machine. Old Lenovo with a dragonfly cobalt usb out to rca, mac book pro -optical to mojo black. Nice Deseret 12” klipsch sub with custom fabric grill cover to match the wife’s bs All packed nice into a little shelf I built that is wife approved. It’s killer Put in a order for a nice set of harbeths p3s that I just canceled because WE the whole family unit is enjoying not having to listen to daddy about rules & regulations. Look man, no horseplay around the hi-fi man. And no wifey, you have had enough wine you have been cut off from even considering the next album. having so much fun with the streaming. …. Do I really want to deal with raspberry pies, roon endpoints and all that shit just for eq essentially? After all that time mastering app peace eq?? I still kinda want to though. Anyway yea. Roll another # for the road to dreamvill and enjoy out of your 560s headphones drivin by the cobalt. Can’t decide if I am a full Qobuz convert yet. Tidal is cool, Amazon is fun …. Not the best to navigate Leaning Qobuz . The stream denier has become the the streamer. I need to get back into the woodshop for Christ sake. The joy of music with the family is back. Fun to share , the best part will always be when ya ask little foot frozen or tom petty? She know the answer
No offend, but after being exposed to the load high-frequency noise that comes with your video I doubt, I will be able to hear any differences between a highres-stream and a shellack!!!!!! Please examine your recording equipment!
This video has nothing to do with "shellac" and mainly talks about things you can test for yourself with a trial of each service and the various sound quality options I discuss enabling/disabling. You don't have to rely on my recording, YT, or your headphones/cellphone.
@@AudiophileJunkie This video has a really bad background noise in a very high frequency. It really hearts the ear, when you listen to the video with earphones. Everybody, who does not hear it, should not call himself "audiphile". I don´t call myself audiophile anyway. I just like listening to good music and watch good videos (without background noise....)
@@AudiophileJunkie that's cool, but most people aren't gonna spend over 600$ to hear a slight difference. and honestly I think it's all perspective, sound is a very subjective thing... all that matters is uncompressed CD Files, why would you need more? all you need is a decent pair of headphones to hear the difference. and if you ask most people, almost all can't tell the diffence between lossless or lossy..
It depends on your software environment. I did the same move as you because I wanted to replicate Apple Music’s spacial audio, but unfortunately… tidal sounds worse than Apple Music (for that and possibly in general). I currently use both tidal and Qobuz, and depending on my setup Qobuz sounds better over upnp, or tidal sounds better over tidal connect to my mqa certified dac…. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than Qobuz streaming pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… You can’t just assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software and hardware environment makes a bigger difference than the Qobuz vs tidal , and synergy and compatibility aka software being programmed with better drivers is crucial. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂
It depends on your software environment. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… Of course you can use upnp (or roon) with Qobuz which to my ears is the only way to listen to Qobuz, and then it sounds a lot better than mqa, but most people don’t know this and assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software environment makes a bigger difference than file in my experience across multiple systems. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Another great video with key points.
It highlights the fact that in blindtests the most important aspect is matching levels. 99 % of the times people say "they hear differences" is due to unmatched levels.
You get it and that one comment alone is unfortunately something many people don't understand yet.
Qobuz all day, every day! The best sounding streaming service! Boom
Boom? lol, Qobuz fans always trying too hard.
You are so right! and then there is a small drop off when you stream Amazon to your bluetooth streamer. I noticed that the music didn't sound as robust when I stream AMAZON to Bluesound node. I thought it was the amplifier at first because when I just went from computer files via ethernet everything sounded much more exciting. It's the volume that is inherent to the service. YOU ARE SO RIGHT. None-the-less, STILL I have to say music straight from computer thru ethernet sounds distinct, live, faster and more present. Makes me wonder what is REALLY a good DAC. ????
Hi you need to try these music apps via dts play fi, not sure what dts does but bloody hell what a difference, brings the music alive
I just cancelled Tidal and now on Qobuz. Qobuz sounds better and doesn't force music on me that I don't want to hear. Amazon has a great catalog but I have regularly busted their service downloading low res songs. My opinion based on endless testing is that they do this by giving you "best available" and then they change what is "available" to keep their streaming bandwidth costs down. I've had high res albums download nearly 1 song per 1-3 seconds and that's a dead giveaway that it's not sending you high res music. And Amazon doesn't currently show you the resolution of the file being played. Spotify is just crap. Pandora is a great resource for radio and music discovery - they try to actually play you what you want to hear and it leads to finding great music you've not been exposed to yet.
You are so right about levels. I was comparing 2 DAC’s A-B switching between a Pontus and a Burson. Both in preamp bypass. The 2-3 db difference was small so I figured I could factor it in my assessment. I thought the Burson was much better, clearer and then I decided to take the time to level match them. The A-B comparison was so different. The Burson was not so much better anymore. Night and day comparison for only 2db. Whatever I thought my ears and brain could compensate for, it couldn’t 😬
You win one of the best comments on my channel. You're the type of audiophile I admire. You are intellectually honest and test your own hearing.
In the end, you also realize how that philosophy paid off for you and helped you make better decisions.
Kudos!
@@AudiophileJunkie Thanks. I realized I wasn’t as “hearing” smart as I thought even after 30 years in HiFi LOL 😂
On another note I should be getting my minidsp SHD in a day or two. Can’t wait!!!
Cool... If you have any questions, just hit me up. The SHD is an awesome piece
Recently, I find that Tidal (not the MQA version) is less expensive than Qobuz, and does not push the Rap / Hiphop music like it apparently did when it started up.
What about Deezer? Quite frankly I think Deezer delivers the best overall audio quality.
I’ve done multiple tests and Qobuz always wins in sound quality but Tidal has a better app and more songs.
I had Tidal and Qobuz and couldn’t tell a bit of difference between the two with 44.1 kHz. I hated Qobuz’s user interface and love Tidal’s so I stuck with Tidal.
I use them both and use a BlueSound Node as my streamer. My only complaint with Tidal is that they don't send Hi-Res to "third party apps" yet.
Questions!
Should the Node be left powered up even when you're not going to be using for a Few days? Compared to low draw of things like Phono amps which don't have power Switches?
Should you leave your Power on to your Power Conditioners all the Time and lastly how do I know I'm not sending signal through my WiFi even when I don't have the Tidal App opened up, should you sign out when not using ?
What's peoples opinion on these as I am a Rookie to Streaming, only a few weeks into this Awesome Listening!
Thanks Everyone
I'm in the non-MQA camp after goldensound's video and subsequent articles. Speaking towards your discussion about settings minutia, there is a small setting in Roon whereby if you want complete disengagement from MQA (though technically) within Roon (it does the first unfolding). I believe it's in your output devices 'advanced settings' that you have to select and scroll down through and then disable. I'm stuck on Tidal unfortunatley because I live in the great white north lol.
Yeah..a lot of people are turned off by MQA. I think Tidal is still riding the bandwagon for now and some find it hard to not use the MQA version so your tip may be helpful to those with Roon and Tidal.
@@AudiophileJunkie You mentioned Adele’s track/album was compressed after the Roon volume leveling reduced the volume by -11db. If the track is too loud, does that mean it’s compressed? I’m just trying to understand what volume leveling is indicating when it increases or decreases the volume of a given track or album? How do you know when a track is compressed even if it is considered a high-resolution file? Adele’s song “Easy” sounds like she is screaming through my speakers. It’s clean coming through my Spatial Audio speakers, but it’s in my face even at a reasonable volume level. Great video! Thanks
Great question and I'm not an official expert on this, so parts of what I said could be confusion or not the correct way of explaining.
However, in short, the leveling won't fix the compression, but it does make the motivation behind it irrelevant (ie raise the loudness of a track over others). The leveler will normalize your playback to approximately all the same volume.
I've noticed 2 sound quality advantages to employing the leveler even though it's not totally fixing compression.
1. Almost all songs sound best when you play them at a certain volume...in a certain room...and to your exact tastes. When you don't have volume leveling and listening to a bunch of different songs in a row like a playlist, you will get songs with different leveling required to be equal. This saves you the differences of matching with your volume control which is meticulous and can be less precise. This leads to an overall improvement of your listening experience, so it's not an improvement in the prototypical sense, but it can be very significant.
2. The leveling acts as a headroom management for digital clipping. Roon will show you that some tracks include digital clipping. The leveler almost always REDUCES gain so it becomes a quasi headroom management tool to stop digital clipping on certain tracks.
Any other improvements noted in the sound could be related to the extra headroom the leveler provides over the normal headroom management that is typically fixed at -3db for most people. However I can't prove that. It's just my intuition based on what my ears are telling me.
Hope that helps...as I understand and learn more, I'll try to do more videos. It may turn out some things change from my understanding at this stage.
@@AudiophileJunkie Yes, I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate the detailed response! I used the Roon volume leveling feature for a long time for the reasons you mentioned and enjoyed it. But, I decided to stop using it because I wanted to avoid altering the music file in any way. I will turn the feature back on because I do prefer the same volume as I go from track to track.
For clarity, I’m still trying to understand how do I determine if a recording is compressed as you mentioned Adele’s album was compressed? I thought a recording that was below 16/44 was considered compressed? Adele’s new album is recorded at 24/44, so that’s were the compression comment confuses me? Thanks!
Listen to the side by side comparison between FLAC and MQA and you can clearly hear the difference: ruclips.net/video/Cl5ULnX4viU/видео.html
I completely agree with the comparisons at different volume levels.
Our hearing is definitely not linear, it’s logarithmic…
Yeah... You hit the nail on the head... That's something people overlook big time.
Plus, people often ignore the obvious difference that we all have in preferences for listening volume. Thus, if any gear, software, or variable plays the music closer to your ideal volume preference, you will get a sense that it sounds "better".
Thus, it's imperative to level match and that becomes very difficult with things like streaming and software where do many variables can be injected for other benefits.
There’s no comparison here. There is a long discussion about volume leveling.
I use Tidal and Cannot comment on MQA or the other services.
A major sound difference I recently experienced was having a streamer that could output usb to my DAC. All I can say is WOW!
I guess it’s the Holo Spring 3’s usb interface is amazing! Maybe USB sounds better on all DACs I can’t say.
The Holo is a great piece.
Generalizations are hard to make with interfaces because each DAC can have a "preferential" input depending on the design philosophy and parts used by the designer.
USB has probably come the farthest in improvement such that it's now preferred (other than I2S natively going to the chip in some DACs).
Optical and spdif probably have more SQ issues on certain DACs, so you're on the right track...kudos on finding what works best for you.
I read in many audio circles that usb is inherently noisy. All I know is to me it sounds as clean and open as any other input. I don't hear any limitations whatsoever.
Question - if you only use one streaming service, does it make any sense to also use Roon?
Yes...I have a video with some of the nice features of Roon, but the biggest one is the ability to use their EQ if you don't have that capability.
Also, it gives you the option to add headroom to avoid digital clipping or loudness normalization like I featured in this video.
Plus, there's tons of advantages from the GUI side and managing your library of hard drive files too. Lyrics, other versions of the song, background on the artist, etc... Are all advantages offered by Roon, so I would do the free trial and see if it makes sense for you.
It depends on your software environment. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… Of course you can use upnp (or room) with Qobuz which to my ears is the only way to listen to Qobuz, and then it sounds a lot better than mqa, but most people don’t know this and assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software environment makes a bigger difference than file in my experience across multiple systems. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂
Right now using Roon with Qbuz. Drives me nuts as sporadic says qbuz media loading slowly on some high end flaq songs. I find the lower end songs play fine. The connection is with wifi versus dedicated hardwire for internet so maybe file size is just too large but then other times it plays fine. My next upgrade is DCS Bartok with it's own ring technology so I do not need Roon. As for current Roon setting I was told to leave those off and do adjusts with my equipment which we RTA adjusted along with sound panels. My system is very high end so the lower flaq files just sound like trash but the high end flaq files sound like they are just there in front of you singing center stage with the band. I do find occasionally a flaw recording at lower rating sounds really good. My music place told me it's the engineers recording and some are done better than others.
Interesting experience...I think a lot of your issues seem to be due to Wi-Fi... Is try hard wire. I use a mesh extender with hardwire from that and never have any issues, so that may work.
I have a friend who has the Bartok and will be doing a video with him soon, so that may be helpful as well.
What are you using as a server/streamer/player? I have an Innuos Zen MkIII, which is a little glitchy at times, but I get my best sound quality, by FAR, using Qobus through Roon (running in experimental mode on the Innuos.) I dropped Tidal in favor of Qubuz because I can definitely hear the improvement on Qubuz's Hi-Res files versus Tidal. BTW, I'm listening through my GR-Research NX-Oticas. I found your videos on building the NX-Tremes very helpful. Fortunately, I did not encounter any of the material problems you did. I love mine.
I build my own servers because I've looked under the hood of these "audiophile" servers and wasn't impressed. They are also glitchy as you mentioned because they stick them in cases not really designed for their purpose. They can overheat easy and on-board wi-fi is sketchy in those devices. They also try to get too fancy with cramming useless outputs or trying to put a linear power supply where it makes no sense (ie before the motherboard which has switching power management anyway so you gain nothing.)
Plus they don't give video options which is critical for me as I featured in a previous video and will feature again soon.
The difference you noted in Qobuz is interesting. I'm wondering if it's the difference between MQA on tidal versus non-MQA on qobuz. So much on Tidal is MQA now that it's almost turned into a format war.
Gratz on your GR Research build. Glad you didn't have any issues. I've had to replace 4 drivers to-date so I definitely got unlucky with a bad batch. Enjoy!
I also can hear a slight improvement in Qobuz over Tidal. It’s not a lot but it’s there.
I would not know how to get involved with Roon, I’m not computer smart. But in my basic AB comparisons like for like I can hear that my Apple Music is a bit inferior to my Tidal, and my Qobuz is a touch cleaner than my Tidal. Apple Music is the better UI but the others are very usable. I’m finding that Qobuz does not have all the albums I look for, Tidal is better in that respect. If Apple Music sounded a little better I would stick with it but I might jump ship to one of the others.
I have Tidal and Amazon Music HD - I found the same with Qobuz when I tried it out for a month. The sound is a bit brighter and crisper than Tidal or Amazon HD. But for the cost, I can't justify the extra cost for Qobuz.
I checked out Roon, but found it not worth it for the cost. $150/year Canadian dollars.
But normalization reduces the dynamics of the sound if it is like the same function in Spotify.
It shouldn't impact dynamics any more than the volume control, headroom management, etc... It's basically the same thing, but takes away the advantage mastering engineers wanted to exploit by normalizing everything you're listening to automatically versus manually. You also gain more headroom (since it's the same as headroom management in Roon) on almost all recordings because you'll rarely find a song where it ADDS gain.
There might be a few songs where you have to watch out for adding gain and potential clipping, but otherwise you should be fine.
You could argue that it technically drops resolution, but it's nothing to the level of being audible.
The main thing is that you can turn it on and off to hear for yourself. You just have to manually level match after you turn it off to have a true comparison, but it should be identical or slightly better.
Which app provides the best wired android auto experience?
When I started to watch this and the term "loudness" was used at first I thought you were discussing the Fletcher-Munson curve (applied either digitally or analog), so I was a bit confused, as in typical audiophile land "loudness" has been used for Fletcher-Munson, and companies still add "Loudness" controls to their preamps. But of course you're talking about level normalization for broadcast purposes, which has now been adopted for streaming (though the standards are really for broadcasting.) Sigh... I wish terminology was more standardized across the community interested in sound. I prefer to use the term Sound Level Normalization.
Anyway, yes, your point about evaluating audio set-ups without matching levels is quite valid. So many times I've come across videos here on RUclips where someone claims set-up A is better than set-up B but on their RUclips video it is quite clear that the audio levels are not equal.
I don't use Roon. On Amazon Music I just tried a track with and without the level normalization switched on and I couldn't hear the difference, perhaps because the track didn't really call for normalization?
Good point about semantics. I used to associate "loudness" with the car audio and 1970s audio systems that had a button to add EQ boosts on the lower end...similar to what you are referring to.
The loudness will be track dependent and unfortunately Amazon doesn't tell you how much is removed (or added) per track like Roon. I did find a track where Roon was adding volume even at -16 LUF which is fairly rare, so I bumped up my setting to -19 LUF.
In the end, I think that's the one big advantage of Roon versus Amazon. The loudness normalization is fixed for Amazon and you don't know how much/little is being done per track. Plus, you can't control it such that you never add gain. I give credit though to Amazon for toggling loudness normalization "on" by default. It's been a real ear opener to dive into more and definitely improves long listening sessions where you don't have as much volume deltas.
On top of that, I still think the added headroom is overall improving the sound too by removing digital clipping. I'll never turn it off in the future.
Tidal’s Volume Normalization works great for having consistent volume between tracks, but doesn’t it generally degrade the sound quality?
Yes it cut down the signal
My favorite is Apple Music lossless and spatial audio.
I have no use for Roon (why deal with the extra layer of software?) nor would I add a PC/laptop into my rig (they sound terrible) I run Qobuz 👑 directly from my Aurender and it’s superb. Tidal/MQA is a scam…Amazon I have zero interest in.
That's fine if you're happy, but the Aurender interface is very primitive compared to Roon (by most people's assessment including mine). An Aurender also gives you no ability to do video like a server can. Not to mention... The price is huge.
As far as I can remember using Aurender, it doesn't even have loudness normalization as an option. If not, that's a potentially HUGE negative as I outlined in this video... Both from a SQ perspective and enjoyment of playing a string of songs without mismatched volumes. On top of that, it sabotages those mastering engineers trying to cheat with compression.
Again, if you're happy, that's fine, but if you haven't tried Amazon, Roon or the various options offered by them like I have, then you might not realize how much better things can get.
@@AudiophileJunkie The Aurender is fairly simple…which is what I like. It has volume control correction which may not be the same as “normalization”. I’m extremely utilitarian, I don’t mess with room correction software, filters, oversampling, upsampling, MQA, video, none of that stuff. Way too much tweaking complexity for me. If I could do it all over again I’d be 100% vinyl….nevertheless, I dig your subject matter. Interesting stuff. 👍
I totally understand. Simplicity is a huge benefit that makes sense for anyone to consider.
I'm hoping to bring more "simplicity" to some of these variables with my videos, but it's still can be either a hassle or fun depending on perspective.
LP definitely has some advantages and simplicity that can be attractive, so I hear ya. Nevertheless, I would equate these things I'm talking about as similar to all the nuances that go into setting up a turntable. Some of those nuances can make a big difference.
Amazon is great.
Can you turn off normalization on all software? Because I don't think compressing audio volume digitally will lead to an audiophile sound. Thats the best thing about CD and SACD, this doesn't happen.
Yes... It's easy to turn off, but you'll learn that the digital volume correction does nothing harmful. In fact, it reduces digital clipping while leveraging the information already in the meta data for the track to provide it to you in a better manner.
CD and SACD doesn't even give you this option. It may sound better for other reasons related to your gear, but it's not because of digital volume correction. The obsession with bit perfect reproduction went away long ago once people realized (and technology existed) to improve things.
@@AudiophileJunkie thanks for the response. But are you 100% sure that volume normalization actually removes digital clipping? Because all it's doing is volume balancing. Imaging changing volume while playing a CD that clips. The volume of the receiver has nothing to do with it clipping because the content is already clipped. All volume normalization is doing is actually compressing the dynamic range. Can you confirm this?
It will depend on the track, but most end up reducing the volume and providing the same thing as the digital headroom feature in Roon except it's variable per track based on your setting and the meta data.
Yes... It's possible that volume leveling can add gain which would do the opposite, so you can combine it with headroom management OR change the LUF setting for normalization to help address it.
Everything involves compromises, but the advantages are heavily weighted in loudness normalization's favor for enjoying a listening session longer than one tune and providing quasi headroom management too.
@@AudiophileJunkie thanks 👍
@@AudiophileJunkie I'd love to see a dynamic range test, SACD vs Roon when using normalized volumes on stream vs the SACD. I just can't believe it's going to be as good for dynamics.
Oh my God you’re so right! Why in the hell when I want to see what is the latest. I get all this hip hop, rap crap! Jesus Tidal! Give us a fucking break! Audiophiles do t give a shit about these skanks and rappers! I’m an audiophile !
Wow… going to stick with cd’s or other direct source.
That's a fine option, but note that you won't have volume leveling either to account for compression in the raw recording. You will have to set your volume different for each track and also playing the hard media CD won't give you the option to add headroom to prevent digital clipping mastered into many albums.
Ideally, you could rip all your CDs to a wav file and then use Roon for volume leveling (or their headroom management feature) to somewhat fix the compression and digital clipping that plagues many recordings.
I am want to get roon because…..well I want it all
But all I would add is my live shows
Mainly just Crowes & dead. I really only listen to those on long car rides.
…there is no way I could ever transfer all my cds to roon. Why would I when I have a sweet ass cd/sacd 2 disc player that I was essentially able to get for free thanks to my escapades as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
So do I try out roon? Yea I will.
Really just kinda makes me wish I did not drop sooooo much cheese & time/energy into my vinyl rig essentially for 25 years. It got bad, I was finding random churches to volunteer sound engineer services just to see what they were giving a way. That collection plate goes a long way. Is that stealing??? Those guys who figure out where the money goes for the service should all go With me down below when it’s all said am done. Good wills/thrift stores. Buttering up friends dads who traded in the home audio set up for in wall speakers/sound bar. Bose wave sound touch media player( wich is fucking killer. Don’t let anybody tell ya any different.) cuz the old lady wanted that mid century modern minimalist interior design they ditched the whole set up. With a 3 year old / busting my balls keeping the wife happy so I can listen to music. I am essentially that dad now…..damn.
I’ll never part with my cds/vinyl. Few sells along the way trades. With streaming … it’s so easy. Moved my stuff out of the family room for a 65 oled/ klipsch the fives (Huge love hate situation with those speakers BTW, that damn software is such fucking trash for the love of god klipsch sub that shit out to a software company)Sony ubpx 700 4k player(great little machine. Old Lenovo with a dragonfly cobalt usb out to rca, mac book pro -optical to mojo black. Nice Deseret 12” klipsch sub with custom fabric grill cover to match the wife’s bs All packed nice into a little shelf I built that is wife approved. It’s killer
Put in a order for a nice set of harbeths p3s that I just canceled because WE the whole family unit is enjoying not having to listen to daddy about rules & regulations. Look man, no horseplay around the hi-fi man. And no wifey, you have had enough wine you have been cut off from even considering the next album. having so much fun with the streaming.
…. Do I really want to deal with raspberry pies, roon endpoints and all that shit just for eq essentially? After all that time mastering app peace eq??
I still kinda want to though. Anyway yea. Roll another # for the road to dreamvill and enjoy out of your 560s headphones drivin by the cobalt.
Can’t decide if I am a full Qobuz convert yet. Tidal is cool, Amazon is fun …. Not the best to navigate
Leaning Qobuz . The stream denier has become the the streamer. I need to get back into the woodshop for Christ sake. The joy of music with the family is back. Fun to share , the best part will always be when ya ask little foot frozen or tom petty?
She know the answer
going from youtube music to Amazon hd... you can tell.
No offend, but after being exposed to the load high-frequency noise that comes with your video I doubt, I will be able to hear any differences between a highres-stream and a shellack!!!!!! Please examine your recording equipment!
This video has nothing to do with "shellac" and mainly talks about things you can test for yourself with a trial of each service and the various sound quality options I discuss enabling/disabling.
You don't have to rely on my recording, YT, or your headphones/cellphone.
@@AudiophileJunkie This video has a really bad background noise in a very high frequency. It really hearts the ear, when you listen to the video with earphones. Everybody, who does not hear it, should not call himself "audiphile".
I don´t call myself audiophile anyway. I just like listening to good music and watch good videos (without background noise....)
That's unique to this video because I was doing screen recording and not the normal mic. Most all of my other videos you won't hear that.
aaahhh you audiophile nerds are funny, out of the 3 main streaming platforms Tidal hifi delivers the best sound, even over airpods and galaxy buds...
Lol... Tidal just changed their hirez to match Qobuz
@@AudiophileJunkie that's cool, but most people aren't gonna spend over 600$ to hear a slight difference. and honestly I think it's all perspective, sound is a very subjective thing... all that matters is uncompressed CD Files, why would you need more? all you need is a decent pair of headphones to hear the difference. and if you ask most people, almost all can't tell the diffence between lossless or lossy..
It depends on your software environment. I did the same move as you because I wanted to replicate Apple Music’s spacial audio, but unfortunately… tidal sounds worse than Apple Music (for that and possibly in general). I currently use both tidal and Qobuz, and depending on my setup Qobuz sounds better over upnp, or tidal sounds better over tidal connect to my mqa certified dac…. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than Qobuz streaming pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… You can’t just assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software and hardware environment makes a bigger difference than the Qobuz vs tidal , and synergy and compatibility aka software being programmed with better drivers is crucial. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂
Tial is lossy (MQA) and Qobuz pays the artist a fairer fee. Easy choice
Tidal is lossless now.
You are misinformed.
@@Milo_Molnar
forever tainted by scammy mqa tho
@@Milo_Molnar
and they never even admitted their scammy ways
MQA is a Gymic . It is nothing . FLAC seems more realistic and better.
It depends on your software environment. Mqa has the potential advantage of being rendered by a mqa certified dac via bitstream and therefore can sound (substantially) better than pcm flac that has jitter (signal loss and distortion) via your usb interface or toslink… Of course you can use upnp (or roon) with Qobuz which to my ears is the only way to listen to Qobuz, and then it sounds a lot better than mqa, but most people don’t know this and assume flac is better than mqa because it is a better file, which it is, but software environment makes a bigger difference than file in my experience across multiple systems. Because tidal has a more refined app, you can argue that listening to mqa is worth it when you’re browsing music and Qobuz is better when you have the playlist ready… I mean, that is exactly why I subscribe to both 😂