LPs vs. streaming, what sounds best?
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- A twist on the old "What sounds better, analog or digital?," this time Steve compares LP to streaming files from Qobuz and Tidal.
www.qobuz.com/...
tidal.com
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The gear used in today's comparisons:
SME 15 turntable sme.co.uk/audi...
SME V tonearm sme.co.uk/audi...
Ortofon Cadenza Blue cartridge
Van Den Hul Grail phono preamp audioshield-di...
Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ mytekdigital.c...
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I am 68 years old. I have been a collector of bebop jazz for over 50 years starting in my mid-teens. I have listened to every format imaginable. Frankly, I love all of it, LPs, CDs, cassette tapes, and streaming. After it's all said and done I still find myself playing analog records most of the time. The artwork and the liner notes of LPs are magnificent. There is something that can be said about photography, artwork, and liner notes. You just can't get that in other formats.
Streaming has expanded my musical horizon far beyond what vinyl ever could.
This a really good point. I use streaming for this very reason. I have a Marantz network streamer for Tidal living next to a Rega turntable. They both have their place and individual use cases.
@@tebo2770 I agree completely. It's all entirely subjective, but for me there is some music that just feels like it should be heard on vinyl. I wouldn't want to give up streaming though, as I listen to a lot of music that way. There are albums from my youth that I think I may want on vinyl. Some times after listening to them via streaming I decide I don't really need them on vinyl. Things like playlists on streaming are something that can't be easily duplicated with vinyl.
Listening on your vinyl or CD wont let you fall in a fraud.
The Qobuz free trial and gift voucher is a SCAM.
Be careful before you insert your credit card details or paypal account on their system.
Their website doesn't work so well and will subscribe you to something you don't want.
And complaining to their customer service is useless, they wont refund you.
Check on line, dig on tweetter, have a look of the complains on Trustpilot about this company.
This is my experience.
I've recently bought a Cyrus DAC so I could enjoy my HiRes music more. I chose one with a 3 month free subscription to Qobuz.
It was a bit more expensive because of this but I wanted to try an online music streamer.
I tried to enter the coupon code on Qobuz’s website but it didn’t work and I contacted the help centre. They told me to pay and subscribe to a monthly plan to activate the coupon and so I did but something went wrong. While following their instructions the website redirected me to the page with a yearly subscription selected, which I didn't notice until it was too late. At this point I received a notification from my bank saying I've been charged £149.99. I went to look on the Qobuz website and I saw my voucher was still there unused. I instantly used their website help centre to request a refund and cancellation of the subscription. Their emailed reply said “there is nothing we can do”, followed by the link of their terms and conditions. Every time I contact them, by email or using their website again, they take a day or two to reply and there is no telephone help line or live chat.
I'm also trying to get their attention on Tweetter without any results.
Doing some research on line (Eg. Trustpilot) it appears this is not the first time they have behaved this way.
I feel frustrated for two reasons; having paid for a coupon that I can’t use, and having been charged £150 for a yearly subscription I was not looking for and I don't want. I haven’t streamed or downloaded anything from the service, at all. This seems a bad way for a company to behave.
The overriding argument for streaming is it's opportunity for discovery because so much choice is available
I have just subscribed to Tidal and the first thing that struck me was how wildly inaccurate the description of the musicians is that accompanies the music. I’m currently playing _Calling Mission Mu_ by the Sydney classical group CODA. Tidal describes the music as “heavy metal” and the musicians are completely unknown to me, unlike the members of CODA. I can’t recall an LP cover that was so inaccurate in over 50 years of playing them!
I've got Brothers In Arms by Dire Straits on both Vinyl and CD, and they sound practically identical (from what I've read the album was recorded on digital tape machines in the mid 80's so it would make sense for them to be identical) apart from the vinyl lacking some of the really low and high frequencies as well as slightly worse stereo separation.
But in the year 2020 the whole vinyl vs digital argument in my opinion is mostly just based on which format has better mastering at this point. Vinyl will of course use the highest resolution files (96khz or 192khz and higher) compared to most digital versions that are either 44.1khz or 48khz (and on most streaming services lossy on top of that..) so it does have an advantage in that regard. But overall it's more about the mastering (as long as you are listening to lossless digital files).
And from my experience most vinyl records have a much more dynamic, better sounding master than any of the digital versions. Digitally distributed music is STILL obsessed with making everything as loud as possible while vinyl is typically mastered to sound as best as possible.
The 2x45rpm MoFi release sounds superb.
The perfect solution: Output digital music and play blank vinyl to a mixer. Voila!
I haven't yet watched this clip, but isn't it true that due to its inherent limitations vinyl cannot be compressed as much as digital ( ironically).
If I were into the music of the last 20 years for better sound I'd go for vinyl, but the convenience ( which we know has always been the biggest factor in recorded music , not quality) music & choice on streaming would be hard to beat .
that was a digital recording, so it's not surprising that the cd sounds as good
Even as a vinyl guy this is pretty unfair. SME 15 turntable £9k, SME V arm £5k, Ortafon cadenza blue £1300, Van Den Hul Grail £5k, that's £20,000 of vinyl front end VS a £1750 DAC! You wouldn't compare £20k speakers to £1750 speakers.
If you're going to have a fair competition then you should do a 20k vinyl rig vs a 20k DAC. Or a £1750 vinyl rig to a £1750 DAC.
I love vinyl, I also have a cadenza blue, a Garrard 401, audiomods series 6 arm, & an icon audio PS3 tube phono. I have a basic dac for steaming & finding new music I like. If somebody is starting out, unless somebody has bequeathed them a lovely record collection, I'd always say go digital.
So true, I was about to write this myself. It’s often not talked about in this vinyl vs digital but it cost exponentially more to make vinyl sound good.
I'm with rocco036 here. While your DAC choice is a very well respected unit, I do wish you had used a dedicated streaming device to feed it. General purpose computers have always been suspect as to their ability to support really high end sound. With a computer you can never be absolutely sure the data going to the DAC has not been manipulated, and that's not to mention the potential for electrical "noise" bouncing around inside. Dedicated streamers go to great pains to eliminate these potential problems. All of the negative things you say about streaming COULD be due your "front end" choice.
Conversely, Darko is using a Rega P2...
'Nuffsaid ;-)
CD players have decades of development behind them, so if you're going to compare digital with vinyl, I think a really good CD player would have been a better place to start. To my ears, with the upgrades I've done to my CD player, I'm enjoying the music just as much as I did on my Linn turntable before I had to let it go.
Streaming it touted as being better than CD due to high res and being more convenient, however, when I used to watch Darko, before he lost the plot, it seemed to me ludicrously complex. Whilst we're at it, I would not let any computer come near my music play back system, as the shear racket in the circuitry would be a nightmare to deal with down the line. Not to mention the horror of selecting what to listen to. There is a reason restaurants have menus, it's so that people get fed.
I'll add a cheap Bluetooth DAC to my system in the study before the Summer comes so when my family comes around they can hook up their phones and choose the music for the barbecue. Now that's a use for steaming I can get behind. Of course, if I don't like it I'll switch it off and put the Buena Vista Social Club on the CD! 😄
not just the dac too, but a reclocker and a buffered input and all that shit too if were getting into cray cray audiophile bullshittery. even just something like a pi2aes
Analogue colouration is additive and Digital colouration is subtractive.
This is so true and a great analogy.
Love your work Steve 👍
I switched to CD in 1984 for audio quality - every vinyl copy of Talk Talk's 'The Colour Of Spring' had a pressing fault that hissed loudly. People tend to forget nowadays how cheaply made vinyl was in the early 80s, at least in the UK.
I have bought around 200 LPs this year in a variety of styles, and yes, the 80s pressings - especially current pop records - are always the worst sounding. With only the compact cassette to compete with (which was worse!), little thought seems to have been given to quality. The inner groove is simply horrible on those records. These days I seek out the same albums on CD.
It's not only that we're badly pressed ( perhaps a nudge to people to favor CDs?) but at a certain point you couldn't get new releases on vinyl ( or were expensive/ more difficult).
There were a few exceptions (like "More UB40 music" ) but you are so right. The awful quality of LPs killed them off as much as anything else
@@phrtao The profit margin on CDs killed vinyl sales off. It still amazes me that stores charged the same or in some cases more for a CD than a vinyl record!
It was the extremely poor quality of vinyl pressings that induced a great sigh of relief in me when CDs became widely available. I have several LPs that are _completely unlistenable_ and even more where several tracks are. None of that applies to any of the CDs I own. At worst I have three or four CD tracks that refused to rip and needed transferring to my PC via analog. Almost all of my several hundred LPs have been digitised and all of my CDs ripped to FLAC. When I’m listening to music I couldn’t give a damn whether the source is LP, CD or a data stream.
As a 57 year old guy that is just getting back into vinyl, this was the most interesting video I have seen in a long time. When CD's first came out, like many folks, the convenience was incredible. I'm rediscovering how wonderful vinyl can be though. For me, based on perceptions left over from my youth, being born into an analog world, there is some music and groups that need to be heard on vinyl.
...just discovering old CD's that suffered from "digititus" (shrill/digital sounding) ...now played through my a newly-purchased Metrum Pavane Dac and BAT tubes ... digital is now very close to my Rega P9 ...with the quality of the recording often the determining factor.
I love streaming music. But sometimes I still buy the physical record/cd.
One example is the band XTC. Only about half their albums can be found on streaming services like spotify and Tidal.
I bought virtually nothing but cassettes and CDs for much of the 90s. I basically lived in Europe out of the backpack and a car for more than a decade until 2004. Records collections are not portable without international movers, so I left them all at home in the UK and hardly gave them a thought. I finally imported my records to Paris and since then I have gone back over to buying vinyl almost exclusively. It’s fun. I have been listening to records for 40 years and no regrets!
Right there with you Jeff. I'm 50 myself and have streamed for a long time. Recently bought a Rega table and quickly found that I really enjoy vocal oriented music far better on vinyl. I believe the warmer sound signature of analog works well with vocal and mids in general. But, there is a place and time for both for sure.
When the back catalog of analog was originally transferred to digital, do we believe the attention given to each release was the same as when it was originally released? Do we think the master tapes and playback systems were in as good a shape as when they were new, in all cases? I knew someone that transferred old movies to dvds, at Universal, they were basically in an assembly line situation, working 80 hours a week, during that initial ramp up period. I bet a lot of good music was converted under similar circumstances.
Im not a streamer yet. I’m a vinyl guy with a lot of CDs, SACDs, DVD-A and Blu-Rays. I love it all, and I’ve been floored listening to all mediums from time to time, when the right music catches me at the right time. I’m really grateful that we have all of it.
I don't think so. I worked in a record store when CDs were new and when vinyl was officially removed from stores. Quality was all over the place. I have discs from the 80s that still sound noticeably different from each other.
@@MichelleTackabery I remember listening to my first cds back in the day. They were clean but IMHO they sounded flatter than their vinyl counterparts. I have better gear now but I don't listen to my main stereo much I mostly do it thru a set of Klipsch promedia 2.1 - nearfield.
Not great I know but I added a dragonfly cobalt to help with the sound.
@@marshallhughes4514 I hear you. It really depended upon the artist and the label. Sting's first solo record (Turtles) on CD was amazing compared to one I bought around the same time, maybe The Cure? Of course I first listened to the Sting on an audiophile friend's system, too
Everyone seems to overlook that vinyl is cut from a master tape or file that must be altered to suit the cutter and groove geometry. Those alterations are by the vinyl masterer. Bass should be moved and carefully kept in check to avoid groove issues. High frequencies may be shaped so the cutter doesn't overheat with signals it can't follow. And a cutter head is, basically, not unlike two speaker motors coupled to a ruby chisel-shaped stylus. You remember how different speakers sound different? So do cutters; they aren't magic. And for fervent feedback haters, fair warning -- cutters use feedback to keep distortion in check. Yet, with great care, patience, and experience, vinyl can be very good. Or, cranked out for the great unwashed, it can be pretty darn crappy -- overdriven, deliberately compressed and limited to keep the playback stylus of a Crosley in the grooves. (On some pop music, this seems desirable.) And to overlay this, the pressing factory may tolerate variances in temperature and the generation of stampers to suit economics. This may be why "remastered" vinyl may be just awful. Or not. There's no accepted way of saying "this is a good one" on the album cover.
What audiophiles do cover, ad nauseum, is playback strategy. All of that is also in the cutting, which you never see.
It may not be enough to just say, "I love vinyl." There's a lot of artistry in mastering vinyl, and it shows. You might have to say, instead, "I love some vinyl." -Just One Man's View.
Great perspective
Thank you Jim, I had no idea of this craft before your response here.
What about the Columbia House crappy pressings that you would get 21 LPs for a penny if you bought 6 more at regular overprice? The vinyl was thin and so was the sound. I never had a way to prove it back then, but Columbia House must have had their own pressing machines. The label said "reproduced under license". Jim brings up a great point about the production issues of vinyl.
hear, here!
As usual with many things, production quality tradeoffs often matter more than the reproduction devices utilized.
@@peteway9377 Yes. Audiophiles often spend $thousands trying to make a vinyl 'silk purse' from a vinyl 'sow's ear.' I know, I have. Somebody should make a small, attractive "resolution reducer" with a big round, machined-from-billet-aluminum knob. In its highest setting, it could make your $50K system sound like an Emerson portable phono/record changer circa 1960. Call it an "Audio Enhancer." Put a price of $6999 on it. Offer a model with lighted VU meters to match a McIntosh for $12999.
Some good points made, but what have we proven? Lps sound better than streaming, or $20,000+ sounds better than $3,000+?
Same thought
Spot on
I don't recall the convenience CDs being cited as the primary advantage. I recall reading about the clarity of the sound and wider dynamic range. And that confirmed my own impressions when I first heard CDs: the sound was just better, crystal clear and without the irritating surface noise that came from playing records. I have a turntable, which I bought five years ago or so, and a few records, which I play from time to time. For me it's all about nostalgia. I love looking at the turntable and watching it work. But I don't hear superior sound, despite the many people who claim that is the case.
I hear you, brother - I'm never going back to vinyl.
Yep, the original sound of my first CDs in the Spring of '85 were jaw dropping. Those CDs were an interesting mix, The Doors - The Doors, Pink Floyd - DSOTM and Prince - Purple Rain but each showcased the new technology in a different way. The original CD mastering was still wide open then, so the dynamics and S/N were incredible! When I heard The Doors "The End" on CD for the first time, it was such an awesome experience. I never gave up my records and I do have a issues with some digital recordings, especially the glassy top end or heavily compressed stuff but I appreciate well recorded music in any format. Most of the time, I don't think one is better than the other, but they definitely sound different and stir up different feelings. Just my opinion.
I remember CDs being 3 to 3 times the price of LPs and nowhere near the sound quality
The most balanced comparison I have seen. Some prefer the signal processing of vinyl, what you called "additive distortion." That is wonderful - enjoy! I happen to prefer the digital file, to which I can add distortions digitally when I wish. Digital can sound analog if you prefer it.
Steve, you keep blowing my mind. After all these years, you are still growing, still learning, still teaching, and still HAVING A GREAT TIME! You keep me coming back. I love it, all of it. (Including the lovely shirts and artwork from Mrs. A!) Many thanks. Keep 'em coming, sir!
"Vinyl is Vinyl and Digital is Digital". This sentence, by itself, is the best you mentioned to give a proper answer to the title of this great video. I have subscriptions to both Qobuz and Tidal. I love to play with Dac and Mqa and streamers but... I arrive to a point that I NEED to listen to Vinyl with one of my two turntables. It's REALLY a different way to listen to music. Not better or worse. Just different. That's why I usually play music through streamers, Sacd player and turntables.
Why do you have subscriptions to both, if you don't mind letting us know? This is the first I have heard of Qobuz, actually.
@@MichelleTackabery actually many of us have a subscription to Qobuz and Tidal. The database is not overlapping. The user interface is different and sometimes searches differ. It's also important to check which of the two platforms, for the album you are interested in, offers Hi Rez or standard CD quality. It's also nice to make comparisons between lossless Flac and Mqa (with the right Dac).
Documentary photographer Sebastio Salgado runs his perfect digital images through a computer program that makes them look like grainy tri-x film. There's just something more satisfying about analogue.
Heh, I wish I had a program that took the trip-x out of some of my old film negatives.
“Better” is a funny word. People tend to like the idea that we are objectively assessing things when we determine our likes and dislikes. You ask people what “better” means in this context and most would say it’s more true to the source… accurate. Given the choice, they pick the sound that best meets their expectations regardless of which is actually more accurate. Steve’s expectations for what Paul McCartney’s voice sounded like singing “Maybe I’m Amazed” were set by that record, and slightly amended every time the needle slid through the grooves, slightly rounding off the corners and peaks.
In an apples to apples comparison using the exact same master tape, digitized to a WAV file on a cd or a flac file in a drive, and then run through an r-2r DAC; compare the waveform out of the DAC to what’s on the master tape and there will be far less distortion than what comes out of even the best phono preamp with the best cart and the best turntable playing a record made from the same master… every time. There is no such thing as mechanical perfection and there is too much room for error in analog recording, storage and reproduction for vinyl to come anywhere close to digital in terms of actual accuracy.
I love vinyl, because vinyl is my favorite flavor of distortion. I like the warm hiss and the smooth sound. I appreciate the imperfections that remind me of the truly imperfect nature of life. It’s the same reason why I can’t listen to autotuned tracks that refuse to show that they are made by imperfect humans who don’t always hit the exact note. At the end of the day, music appreciation is subjective and it’s silly to pretend there are objective standards for what we like about it.
I’m more digital now, I’m on the hunt of new music lately and getting everything on vinyl is becoming to expensive and after a while your interest in an album or band fades and you’re stuck with unplayed vinyl.
Steve you are constantly coming up with great new ideas for your shows. This one is really a great topic.
I love the ceremony of playing vinyl. Hunting for the record, then pulling it out of the sleeve and holding it in my hands. Preparing the turntable and cleaning the record, dimming the lights and then placing the needle on the record. It feels like I'm honoring the recording by being actively involved in caring for it and giving it a place of importance in my priorities. And then sometimes I just love the ease and simplicity of streaming. 🤷🏻
Reminds me of the men who shave with a safety razor and go with the ritual of soap lather, shave, repeat, repeat, styptic pencil, than a quick swipe with a 5 blade Gillette. Honor the blade.
Well said. It’s like warming up a vintage car engine before putting it into gear. With Spotify I try something and zap although the time.
Yes, it definitely has a 'sense of occasion' about it.
I enjoy streaming most when used with tube amps. The combo is a good one.
This is not a serious comparison. Here in Sweden, that vinyl rig is roughly €30 000 and the dac €2000.
Now streaming another concert, percussion ensemble, music I would probably never hear anywhere but online. And again, AWESOME!
My turntable seldom sees the light of day. I don't know how vinyl afficianotoes manage to ignore the pops and clicks that make me crazy. I was overjoyed when CDs arrived. I sought out DDD recordings.
Clean your albums and handle them properly. I have albums 40 years old and they're dead quiet.
The SugarCube SC-1 ...
“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...” Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities
Streaming allows me to experiment with music I could never afford to try if I were having buy LP's of CD's, good video thanks.
Sisyphos would love this comment section! It’s a question of personal taste and the used gear in my opinion. Being an audiophile is such a highly subjective passion, the only thing no one can deny, vinyl has a certain magic to it because of the ritual that comes with the handling of the equipment and LP’s.
One man's magic is another man's inconvenience.
I still do lp and cd. Most of my lp sound better but my cd player is very good. I even do a cassette from time to time. I stream when I want to listen to something I dont have a physical copy of. I like physical media and I dont know what it would cost to get a good streamer. For me it just doesn't matter. My system sounds very good to me and I think that is most important.
So 20 grands' worth of turntable sounds better...you don't say
No need to spend 20 but 5 would get you there
@@jm_1214 Maybe. Maybe not.
Tech 1200 = better than all the digital crap out there
@@manFromPeterborough Yeah, right. The same POS that DJ's use. For them it's not a POS because it does what they need it to do - not because of sound quality. Those things have so much low frequency rumble it's not even funny.
I'm 100% digital, I have 4500 sacds, 3100 dvda, 8000+ cds, and 900 magnet tapes in 1/8th and 1/2inch. They all are better than anything on vinyl record.
Sonus Faber Aida mains Bryson 4b Amp.
I have a Sonus Faber 7 floor... With the Aida as LR. And the menuettos as the surrounding, and 2 menuettos as the center (both amped independent). Four Macintosh for atmos overheads, Infiniti for the side speakers. Emotiva dual reference for most speakers. Bryson for the mains, and 3 center channel.
It's the difference that we give to post eq. The digital version given the same eq will always be better.
Why I use the emotiva RMC 1. Because it has per imput trims in good old UK board settings for bass, mid, and treble. And you can save them to the processor.
It's better than my lexicon processor in every way.
Yes I bought the entire DVDa catalog from Tribeca music when it went on sale
@@johnsmith1474 ohh no. I already have over 1PB of storage spinning. At the very least use exact audio copy.
Just curious......why does Amazon HD tier not get any love? Most of us are prime members and it’s quite about cheaper than Tidal?
I love Amazon Ultra HD better than Tidal Qobuz. I had them both and find the Anazon Ultra HD better sounding. But still, I prefer the Analog sound of Vinyls.
I'm with you. I've been an Amazon HD subscriber since it came out. Great selection, including some obscure titles. As I'm getting back into vinyl it's also a good way to audition an album and see if it's something I want to own on vinyl.
I've found the user interface to be inferior, and its API does not play well with others. I switched to the more expensive Tidal for this reason.
I dropped Tidal for Amazon HD. It's probably not as "cool." Oh well.
Even though vinyl can in most cases (like CD) sound much better than streaming, having a mac mini doing the streaming process is not a fair way to go (to compare both formats), because it adds a lot of jitter into the process. The analogue side of the equation is in a clear advantage. You should have picket a dedicated streamer + DAC to have a fair comparison, Steve. :)
Funny coincidence. I am in the middle of Greg Milner’s excellent tome “Perfecting Sound Forever” I just finished a chapter on this very topic. Steve touches on it here as well. In the book there’s a quote from an engineer that if one took a blank lacquer, have no signal coming down, cut a series of silent grooves, put it on a turntable and dropped the needle, you would “get” a nice soft round pink noise. Everything heard on a record is heard through that filter of pink noise. The conclusion being “maybe what analog fans really want is “a record that sounds like a record.” Steve nicely concludes this subject that maybe there are no real winners, or an either or situation but rather what and how you like to listen to music.
Wait a minute, so you’re comparing the sound quality of an SME analogue kit + The Grail, to a Brooklyn DAC + MacMini? Really?!?!
Exactly, you stole the words straight out of my mouth!
"Bits are bits" and "perfect sound forever," remember.
@@SilverAudiophile Same here.
some of my favorite recordings to listen to are vinyl rips from people with very nice systems. in a way, you kind of get the best of both worlds. the convenience of digital, and a taste of that person's phono cartridge, preamp, etc.
The worst thing I ever did to my wallet was to get a quality turntable. I was perfectly fine with my streaming and cd collection for years, and then I ruined it by getting into vinyl. When you don't have anything to compare digital to, everything sounds great. Once you hear vinyl you realize something has been missing from your life. Not always better, but definitely a different way to listen, and I find it much easier on my ears. I can listen to vinyl all day without ear fatigue... digital not so much.
Could vinyl be 'easier on the ears' because the dynamic range of LP' s is limited to 60-70dB at best and digital can produce a dynamic range of around 100dB?
@@Wuppie62 I'm not sure. I know previously CD's actually didn't use as much range as they had available due to them mixing them "loud". So the functional dynamic range was actually greater on Vinyl even though it is technically more limited.
@@JC-lk3oy
I think that totally depends on the type of music and the record company and not to cd's in general.
@@Wuppie62 Absolutely, but in the 90s when I bought most of my CDs, this was a common practice.
@@JC-lk3oy Listening to constant loud music - in which everything sounds equally loud - is tiring in the long run. So I guess you're right about your cd's and the loudness war (clipping).
I also read that with the rise of streaming music services and the decline of cd sales, the loudness war could be replaced by the use of normalisation, which would lower the pressure from the market to mix recordings as loud as possible. Hmm..
based on the huge price discrepancy of the equipment being used, ie: the mega cost of the turntable vs. the rather modest cost of the digital streamer used, I don't find this comparison to be on equal footing.
I just streamed a tuba recital unavailable on any other medium. It was awesome.
so you're the one.
Lot’s of music you could never hear is played at Colleges, I’m glad CWU posts these recitals!
Steve, no disrespect, but this is a very old school digital set up comparison. You are COMPLETELY IGNORING the state of digital audio technology at the end of 2020. Things have moved on significantly over last 5 years. Of course something like Mac Mini and a DAC with build in streamer (circa 2010 tech) is going to sound "harder" and more "digital". In 2020 there are now so many new technologies like network audiophile routers (Melco,Jcat), streamers (Innuos, Melco, Auralic), upscales (Chord, Auralic, dCS) and digital signal regenerators (iFi, Innuos) that each make significant difference to the sound. The best digital set ups are capable of removing all the obvious digital sound issues and compete head to head with the best vinyl set ups. Yes, good digital setups are are still on the expensive side, but coming down very fast. That should have been THE NEWS of your video. Saying that "they sound different" is really not a news at all.
Hi, what would you recommend as an entry level system?
@@gdwlaw5549 For a 20 m2 room. BC Acoustique SP102, 2 x 25W class D (only second market). Tiny wonderful active speakers, natural wood. Plug in the SPDIF, u're in for a beginner highly musical 24-bits/192Khz digital basic listening. The last I bought was 144 € (450-ish new) for the system + optical cable Sys concept 80 € 3m / or better, QED REFERENCE OPTICAL QUARTZ/ Just plug in your PC with EVGA soundcard (150/300 €) + separate regulated current if u can (optional)./ High fidelity, so simple, so tiny, u can't believe it. Monitor style experience with great voices like Simone Kermes.
@@vivianvaldi7871 BC acoustique are great. I can’t Find them anywhere even second hand
@@gdwlaw5549 Second market. Believe the last new ones were sold out this very month. Check Cobra.fr, or mail them. Sometimes some few more get over there. The BC boss is now busy with public sonorisation projects.
if analogue is so bad how come everyone is trying to get digital to sound more like analogue?
There are vinyl ripped files nowadays. How good do they sound compared to pure vinyl, cd, cd ripped or streaming sound. It seems odd that vinyl lovers are making digital files.
Steve, I think your idea of additive distortion via LP playback is brilliant!! As a musician it makes so much sense!! A guitar in the northern hemisphere is tuned to 440 because of physics. All acoustic instruments are tuned based on the natural environment. A turntable by default must obey natural laws of many types and thus it's sound is familiar to our collective unconscious. Digital music is not as susceptible to these first principles so it only makes sense that the sound would reflect such. It's kinda like the difference between an acoustic grand piano and a grand piano patch on an electronic keyboard......both sound very close to each other however the acoustic version will always have natural imperfections that add to it's musicality that digital will never be able to reproduce.
Defo would have been a more equal comparison using a good streamer and the Denefrips Terminator. I have heard that the Mytek is often too analytical for some. So you would expect to hear more of a difference.
Seems to me that you are comparing a dac that is a fraction of the price of the combination lp system. How does that make any comparison reasonable?
You think that DAC's did a poor job because it was a fraction of the cost of that turntable ? You think that if we could find a DAC that costs as the same as the turntable will give you a night & day difference or in reality, you would not be able to tend the difference between the 2 DACs?
@@hyroproto4364 You think that a 4k Dac sounds the same as a 4c Dac? That is a perverse starting position. If you have tried this comparison (with matching system components) and can't hear the difference, then you should be happy. Wish I couldn't hear the difference either. I could have saved a packet. Greetings to one and all.
Frankly everything makes a difference. I just switched to Shuyata Omega ethernet cables between my Mac Mini to Melco S10 hub with dedicated LPS and again Shunyata Omega to Devialet 1000 Pro and it does make a super clear difference, although I know that TCP/IP is just about packets and that bits are bits... so yes, DAC do make an audible difference.
Streaming from the web vs replay of locally stored files can make a difference as well. More of less perceptible. I would also definitely use DSD files if a smooth analog sounding result is expected.
@@anthonyhopkin Then I'm a happy bloke. I'm not saying that al DACs sounds the same. But most of the time the difference is negligible.
@@hyroproto4364 Yup, I don't buy into the price difference argument either. At some point more money does not make a significant difference taking in all the other variables, including source material issues.
How come no one talks about Amazon music HD? I tried tidal and the dealbreaker was no way of playing my stored music
If I want to play my stored music with Tidal (20 bucks per month)I need Roon(13 bucks a month)
Amazon HD is 15 a month and it imports all my stored music, just an fyi for Tidal fans.
I think the real or more appropriate question should be...What recordings are mixed, recorded and produced the best...analogue or digital. As I think both mediums would or could be equal...but only if the same skill and care and attention was done at the production stage!
I absolutely love Qobuz... and Vinyl.
1:03 - 'Convenience trumps quality most of the time.' So true and right to the point! :-)
What we need is extremely high end system to do the master tapes to digital conversion. And then there are the original master tapes to digital as tidal claims. In what equipments are those done with, are they everytime the same?. Not all tape players sound same etc. So this comparison is basically 100% impossible task to even do accurately. The right way to do it is to do from digitally recorded files to analog. Now we can be sure the master outputs are 100% the same every time and listen what sounds better, is it CD/highres file or LP on 200.000$ turntable..
I gravitate towards CD/Streaming for the convenience, lifestyle fit, and just ease of being able to listen to music whenever. I understand the beauty of vinyl. I do believe that music that was recorded at the time of vinyl was mastered to that medium properly and may not sound better there than in any other format. As we all know, audio is very subjective and dependent on so many factors - room, master, mix, equipment used for playback, recording gear, and our own personal bias (that can change from one tweet to the other!). I'm a music fan more than an audiophile and this is why I welcome digital/streaming. I had vinyl, then CDs, and now I stream. Whatever makes me enjoy my music from a good - but inexpensive - wireless speaker, to a high-end stereo system. I enjoy how music changes from one format to the other, from one set of speakers to the other. It's all part of the joy of music. More so, these days good gear and streaming are rather affordable so, as the Beatles said on Sgt. Peppers, "A splendid time is guaranteed for all."
This will be a different conversation in 10 years. A mastering engineer at a MAJOR studio told me lots of the bad digital mastering from the 90s and 00s is being redone. Even the new Marley half/speed pressings have a digital step. I think the future of digital is bright, but it’s not there yet.
Shades are being ordered.
Yea for example check out the new Pearl Jam MTV unplugged remaster. It has insane quality in sound. Best album IMO now.
Born between the generation "steam" (fully mechanically) & "bit" (fully digital) I do not care, HOW Music is brought to me.
I care about the MUSIC itself. And a live concert (as we used to have in pre-Covid-times) is the reference - for me.
High Res streaming of a music-file, based on a good master is equal (for me) to an excellent pice of Venyl.
What I like about "mechanically" reproduction of music: you can see it ! You can watch the Turntable.
What I like about "digitally" reproduction of music: you can use it everywhere!
So, what's better? Both ;)
Hi Steve, I’ve not commented before, but really appreciate your videos. I found myself asking myself about this a few months ago, and tried recording various sources to hi-res flac. What I found interesting was to compare spectographs. I have a number of sources on LP from the late 1950’s through to now, including digitally mastered vinyl from the 1980’s, some Cr02 cassettes, that I have duplicates of on CD. I have a few DVD & blu ray audio disks. What I found was that on early vinyl, the frequency response drops off around 18 kHz, in much the same way later Cr02 cassettes do. The quality is not much poorer than CD, IMO,. From the mid-60’s the high frequency response increases, and drops off about 24kHz - even recording at 96kHz, there seems to be little benefit, as the signal drops off around 24kHz. However, I am sure that 24-bit gives a better sound than the 16-bit of CD. When I play more recent remastered sources on vinyl, the high frequency response appears to drop off about 22 kHz, which is about the same as the CD version. The point I am coming to myself is that recordings are best listened to on the medium they were intended for. Digital recording/masters sound best on a digital format, Analog recording/masters sound best on vinyl. Because most remasters are done digitally, for digital media, you get the worst of both worlds - something intended for vinyl on digital format, or something analog digitally reprocessed on vinyl. Objectively, it hard to justify, but subjectively, in my limited experience, that is how it appears to me. What has surprised me is that I can get a decent digital recording from some of my Cr02 cassettes - nearly as good as CD - the key is to have a decent Analog-to-Digital-converter in the loop. The advantage of recording vinyl to 48kHz 24-bit flac is it can then be stored on my NAS & a portable SSD to use when I’m away - and I can process the audio files to clean up any noise & crackles between tracks. What I find weird is that my own digital recordings sound nearly as good as the vinyl originals to me, and better than the CD versions.
You need to do a blind test. Predisposition to liking vinyl better will always skew your mind. I have witnessed this firsthand. Multiple masters are unlikely. Old recordings were analog and converted to digital within the last 20 years. Modern recording are digital for sure for even the smallest studio. People are used to the “way” analog sounds. They like it because it’s familiar.
Steve *did* *say* that he's a subjectivist through and through.
He own's and embraces what he is, and let's us know right up front that that's a part of the package here. No "blind test" needed!
How about you?
I will say this, it is too easy to identify analog to reality have a blind test. I grew up when cassette tapes were popular, and thought CDs were the best thing ever when I got my first CD player. I never liked MP3s... for obvious reasons. Then, I finally heard vinyl on a quality turntable for the first time in my life in my 30s. It blew my mind how different the listening experience was. I had always dismissed vinyl lovers as people stuck in the past or as a form nostalgia, but I was wrong. Vinyl has this smoother, more rounded sound that hugs you like a warm blanket. I actually prefer vinyl for long listening sessions now because it causes less ear fatigue for me. I wish I didn't like vinyl, because streaming is so much cheaper and convenient. Analog is not better, but the difference is worth having in your life.
I recently started appreciating both vinyl and cd more... CD's by upgrading my cd player to a Marantz cd6000 ki , and vinyl by wet cleaning vinyl.. all media can be incredible if you ask me, enjoy the music 🥰
Steve, I have to say I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Great reviews, commentary, and I always learn about new albums to check out!
Whilst it’s true that for most of us, this kind of gear is out of reach financially, there is another crucial factor to the enjoyment of the vinyl experience - the point of origin of the records themselves. There is a huge difference between records records pressed in say, Germany, UK, France and the US. Classic, big selling records from the 50s/60s were locally produced and cut in a variety of ways and on differing materials. Some have deep grooves, some shallow, some have a wide inner groove while others are pushed right up to the label with little thought to the consequences. As to ‘vinyl’, that seems to be a relative term. Not only does it come in different weights, it also appears to be differently formulated. eg: a typical 50s Mercury LP from the US feels and sounds more akin to a 78 ( even in your hands ) while a UK pressing looks and sounds as modern as can be. And all this is before we even consider mono versus Stereo. I find that the choice is less between streaming and vinyl and more about choosing the record you prefer from among multiple copies.
Your statement seems so true. While streaming Van Halen's default playlist on Tidal, the bass on some 70's songs sound really full and hard hitting and on others like it is turned off and overall thin and unexciting. I'm thinking about adding in a box with knobs that I can quickly add in some "enhancement" from tune to tune or give up on suggested playlists where the quality is inconsistent (probably a better choice). Where is that loudness button on my pre-amp?
I think i like your videos so much because i can listen to jazz and watch your videos, same time, and neither interferes with the other!
There are significant differences in mastering practices over the years between CDs and phonograph records. There are consistent differences between cumulative SPL spectra and in the amount/degree of compression and clipping between the two formats that can be easily seen using Audacity, etc. Both Vinyl and digital lossless are typically mastered with a fair amount of treble boost between 1-5 kHz. Vinyl also sports significant levels of extreme low frequency attenuation to keep your expensive cartridge/needle in the groove instead of launching itself out of the groove (which is basically most of the "passing" QC criterion for phono mastering). The CD versions of old albums from vinyl-only days (i.e., originally recorded/released before 1982) also usually retain this deep bass attenuation so no one will complain about "too much bass" when listening to the CDs after listening to the vinyl versions from decades ago.
For reasons probably associated with the lack of midbass trapping in most listening rooms, CDs have historically been mastered with a fair amount of added mid-bass attenuation in the 100-200 Hz band, making the sound very thin--sort of like a table radio. Much more clipping is used on CDs mastered since 1991 (from 3 to 11 db), resulting in splashy sibilences and exaggerated high frequency percussion sounds. Virtually all "remastered" CD versions sport significantly increased compression than the original vinyl versions.
If you reverse engineer these mastering EQ curves in either vinyl records or CDs, you'll start to hear the same thing out of both of them (except the increased vinyl noise levels). This has essentially nothing to do with the exact type of DACs, turntables/cartridges/phono preamps, etc. Vinyl will generally present higher track noise in the form of pops/ticks, rumble, wow/flutter, etc. than digital formats. Analog tape masters always give themselves away via significantly increased background noise levels vs. digital recordings.
I'm with Steve on this one, I play vinyl, CD's, Tidal and the occasional cassette tape, all depending on the situation...
I sometimes record Tidal on my Sony and Pioneer reel to reel machines. I buy 10.5" ATR Magnetics (made in York Pa.) 1/4" back coated 2500' pancake tape....$41.00. I place the pancake tape in good used metal 10.5" reels. The recording chain is Oppo 103 to Parasound Halo 5 to reel to reel. The sound playback is just simply beautiful using freshly made recording tape and the vintage electronics in the reel to reel machine. I just close my eyes listening and say "there is the music" Janis Ian, Mark Knopfler, Joe Bonamassa, Sara K....the digital edge to the sound on Tidal is gone using reel to reel. I picked up a tip from my SAE equipment manuals that say to use coaxial made RCA cable for low noise recordings. I found Knukonceptz Karma v3 Coaxial RCA cables that sound natural with very low noise. The cost of $7.49 for 3 feet on their website is a great value. Thank you Steve for sharing many ideas about audio!
The best reproduced music I've ever heard, the most palpably, compellingly real, either in my own systems or the best systems I've listened to that aren't mine, has been on vinyl. Especially, the direct to disk (Sheffield Labs) and best quality pressings/remasters (like Mobility Fidelity, Nautilus, etc.). Digital has gotten SO good even with the last few years, and even more convenient. I feel that turntables are lovely, elegant precision devices, but they are fiddly, fragile things. They have to be set up and dialed in very carefully, and evening using the turntable and vinyl recordings has to be done with care.
My purely subjective opinion is that on my very modest set up, a well mastered and pressed LP sounds better than the equivalent on CD (I don't use hi-res streaming or any streaming for that matter). The sound is just more spacious and dynamic. Of course there are many drawbacks to vinyl, mainly it is very expensive and idiosyncratic in terms of the constraints of the media (inner groove wear for example), I don't blame people for being pro digital or just ambivalent towards the whole analogue vs digital argument. And then there's the collecting angle or the ritual aspect of vinyl - much harder to quantify those aspects but it all ties in with vinyl preference.
The reason for me to sell my record hard ware and my Vinyl are several: I am 71 and a great music enthusiast, but I am also a minimalist. I also got used to streaming during the last 7 years to discover new music. I love nature and hiking and biking. But streaming makes it possible for me being outside and still enjoy music. At home I got a Sonos Era 300. By Apple Music and Tidal I enjoy music both at home and outside and even at the gym.
I still have 1000 CDs but no hard ware and still struggle if I should sell them, too. (But for that I would need new hardware and I don’t have the money to get that in high quality. A cheap recorder with low sound quality is not an option for me, because everything I have with streaming in better sound quality. Greetings from Germany
this is where I call it quits; I understand speakers, subs, setup, imaging, sound stage, decent quality recordings - all those make a real difference - but this whole analog vs digital conversation is why non-audio enthusiasts say audiophiles are nuts; splitting hairs is nothing
A Mytek Brooklyn+ connected to a Mac Mini? Come on. How is this even remotely a sensible comparison?
Maybe if you used a comparable DAC like the Chord Dave or the Moon 680D, and an Aurelic streamer or something this would have been a more appropriate comparison, but this is unfair and not well thought out at all.
Absolutely,
This was engineered to get the result he wanted.
Generally people who love vinyl pour most money into a turntable
@@simondilley9596 I don't know if I would go that far. He could have simply said he preferred the digital across the board if he wanted to.
I just think that, as a life long professional reviewer and writer, he knows better. He's a content creator and needs to pump this stuff out almost every day. I just think this was (really) poorly done and not thought out at all.
My view is that you should compare similar sets. This is apples and onions.
Someone deleted a comment here that said, "the man worked with what he had". If that's the case he shouldn't have made this video or at least used one of his many many connects in the industry to borrow a real streamer and DAC. Then it would have at least been fair and interesting.
This is just nonsense and he knows it.
I love it all, vinyl, cassette, reel to reel,dat, cd, sacd, blue spec cd,dvd audio,blue ray audio, streaming etc. although I never really was much on 8-track.
Great video Steve, I think you may have hit the nail on the head without actually realising it. Something that I’ve noticed over the last couple of years is that electronic music regardless of how it was recorded tends to sound better in digital formats. This can be EDM, hip hop, industrial, experimental classical, electro pop (the whole gamut) not necessarily better than analogue, but certainly better than rock, folk, jazz or classical does in digital formats. Streaming is great, it’s the best to hear new (new to you) music, without having to invest in something you might not like. I use streaming for discovery and vinyl to collect and enjoy. Different tools for different jobs.
You the man Steve loving the content always down to earth. Enjoy the music peace.
Upgrade to the Ortofon mc Anna, that would we a killer front end.You're so right, digital is just easier ! For digital it's early days, compared to analog. Would be interesting if you could compare it to a far more expensive DAC ,see if it would make a lot of difference. The law of diminishing returns.
Thats 100% correct steve,,and the bottom line,,its to have the best possible source , that you feel comfortable with ,and enjoy your music and be happy with it, and have fun.
Fascinating video Steve! It’s be interesting to hear what happens when you throw a tube amp into the mix!
OMG, Julee Cruise - Floating into the Night... Absolutely Amazing!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU for the heads-up on this album. I loved the TV series, but the music more!
I remember when I traded my old Micro Seiki 77 turntable, for a Philips 104 CD. I could hear immediately the records was better. It was more organic and
coherent.
The time and improvement of digital streaming has really made it sound pretty good when you listen today though.
These days days, my "breakthrough" came when I heard Spotify over my Yamaha HS 7 with the HS 8 sub. When I got my KEF LS 50W with a B&W sub, I could suddenly hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal. Tidal was more dynamic, clear and with great resolution.
But records still have a place in my heart. Sometimes I miss my old Micro Seiki 77. 💚
Thanks for a great reminder Steve. 😘
That's a good warm-up for a proper comparison between the two (and why not three?) technologies at the same front-end equipment cost and through the same power amp and speakers..
Use both, Streaming for background music or discover new music. Vinyl for serious listening .
Great video. What would really interest me is a comparison between Tidal / Cobuz streaming on the one hand, and CDs on the other.
I loved analogue Steve. But when CDs came along. No longer having background noise from my lp's I was sold. I never did use a high end turntable though. My Thorens turntable was lovely though, however crackled a bit....
Both for me Steve... love the snow...
I too find that in general original digital recordings sound best played back in the digital domain, and analog in the analog domain. However, there can always be a mastering engineer or cutter who screws it up, or makes it better. That is why being able to see such credits is so important! There are engineers I can count on, and ones I know to stay away from.
I think the comparison between the analogue and digital-at least in this context-is like comparing a hand made and illustrated version of a novel with the same work mass published as a trade book: they both accurately convey the same information but the experience is richer (and far more expensive) with the hand-made version.
Love this discussion. It's part of the fun of audio.
Connecting your DAC directly to a Mac via USB is not doing it justice.
Makes the comparison pointless.
why?
The Mac is just a storage system for the files. They are transferred EXACTLY as encoded to the DAC.
If people are complaining about the DAC I would understand the sentiment but complaining about the Mac is nonsensical.
@@GavinM161 It's pretty obvious that the noise from the Mac mini will affect the sound quality.
@@thestackcash01 Digital audio systems are very sensitive electrical noise. USB noise coming off a Mac or PC is pretty significant.
I think the Denafrips should have been used for most this comparison. I understand your explanation for the use of the mytek but that dac doesn’t have the most analog of sound. You have a wonderful Vinyl front end but it highlights how much money you have to shell out to bring out the best in vinyl, that is dirty secret in this age old debate. You can affordably obtain good digital sound. Thanks for the effort Steve, I appreciate your none review videos.
I have A/B’a Denafrips Ares II to vinyl and the vinyl sounds better. Less forward, laid back and pleasing to the ear. Denafrips still better than other DACs I’ve heard.
Very cool show!
I heard vinyl recently and remember why all of a sudden I loved it during the cd craze. Before then, growing up in the 60s and 70s, I never really paid much attention to vinyl as it was the main source of music. Of course reel to reel was very cool but very few of us back then had reel to reel players.
I'd love to add vinyl to my system but truthfully I wouldn't know where to start.
Great topic! At home vinyl and CD's rule. At work, obviously, streaming music is pretty handy! I still prefer physical media. Thanks again, friend!
Streaming also expands listening possibilities!
I grew up listening to my sister play classical piano on a Steinway baby grand. I was always astonished at the sound in our living room. When I could afford my first stereo (AR 3a’s Marantz 2245, Dual turntable) I was pretty much disappointed in piano reproduction from a record. My sister bought a very cheap stereo all in one system, JVC in think, and was happy with it, so I asked why don’t you upgrade your “hi fi”? She simply said nothing could reproduce the sound of that Steinway!
Analog I still like playing over streaming, I get my exercise and I can hold the album and read it and also the art work is awesome.
Steve summed it up perfectly...... Everything sounds DIFFERENT! I have plenty examples of vinyl beating digital and digital beating vinyl, depending on the particular master.
This proves that most of us aren't looking for a perfect copy of the live performances but rather we have an innate preference for a "sound" . I don't think anyone can be right about this, just accept you like what you like and I like what I like and sometimes I like what you like and you like what I like.
When I updated my audio gear I had 4 sources I wanted to maximize. The first was to listen to albums and immerse myself in its sound, the visual enjoyment of the album cover and the art design/photography. The 2nd was my cassette tape library which included mix tapes I made and ones gifted to me. The 3rd was my CD collection and the ease of selecting tracks I was in the mood to listen. The final was streaming my ripped music of Playlist. Tidal and Qobuz gave me the ability to discover new music. Something I used to use iTunes in the past. Some artists do not have vinyl versions so streaming it was my only choice. Each music source/format provides an experience depending on what I want. So many times technology is lost because of format wars. I am glad albums are back and that people are servicing vintage cassette decks. For me they each have a place in my system equally. Great video as always 👍.
I used to own a Michell Gyro SE with Michell Technoarm, Ortofon Kontapunkt B, Trichord Dino phono stage. I now have a fully digital front end and I'm frightened to even listen to vinyl as I know that it will cost me a fortune to replace what I had ;-)
Well done Steve spot on...
It's funny to hear you view on electronic music, were i find electronic music to sound overall better on a turntable than in digital, and i hear a lot of electronic music and had for decades. But it was first when i upgraded my analog system by miles, i began to experience something new with electronic music reproduction, so when i bought my Rega P8/Apheta II combo, running through my Lehmann Black Cube SE II ref. Phono Stage, i really began to notice how good electronic music can sound on a turntable/record. It's much fatter, quicker in some response, and not very ear fatigue to me. So i'm guessing i'm more into digital/electronic through an analog set-up. As for streaming digital, i haven't come around that yet, as i'm still enjoying my +2500 CD's, playing through my Linn Ikemi HDCD player (from the old days), and it still sounds amazing too me. But i have thought of the little well known and well reviewed Chord/Quetest DAC, which i'm sure would for fill my dreams of digital music reproduction. Cheers from Denmark
Steve I absolutely love you man
At 13:26+ you forgot to add the 45 RPM speed of record playback besides the 33.33 RPM, by the way, Steve. Anyhow, I listen to vinyl, CD, and music streaming in that order. Thumbs up, Steve. Another great, descriptive production.
I went from LP's to CD for the SOUND CD'S have a cleaner sound . I still Play LP's but it for the Feel ,the Art . What sounds better alway and will always Come down to how good it was Record !!
Yes. sir.
Until receiving my Denon... 600 amp on Friday, it was digital in the car, analog at home. I've got only spotify, but I gotta say even the bluetooth (and RCA input) on that amp sounds really good. A fair bit colder and analytical, but if I want to bounce from song to song, I'd go digital. If I'm feeling lazy, obviously digital. But the love of vinyl sound and the interaction with the music will never be topped. Life is too short to pick one. I try and turn all my friends onto vinyl whenever possible
Research is very difficult. Reducing variables (or possible variables) is hard to do especially if we let our own pre-existing opinions cloud the process.
If you can pre-qualify the digital files as not compressed this is a start. Are the differences heard as part of digital to analog conversions at YOUR end? Lots of other possibilities certainly. This could be just one variable.
Try to get that D10X back and use its internal DAC to listen to the server files as a test.
If that softens the results or fixes what is being heard - you are one step closer to an answer.
Lp 45 rpm large grooves is still the best.
I like vinyl, I also like cassette tapes, in the last few years I have been getting very good performance from cassette tape, with high end decks and high bias tapes. So I am now building a digital bias system and working some very new technologies, that have made improvements in this older format, so we be should be talking about what is possible with audio tape as well LP's. As technology has come along way since what was possible back in the 1990's, the audio experience is both analog and digital formats. If anything this highlights how everyone hears the same sound differently, some like the digital and some like the analog, I enjoy all formats, cassette, vinyl, CD and lossless steaming audio, but I stay well clear of any compressed digital file formats.