Jordan Peterson and Russell Brand on "The Devouring Mother" archetype
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- Taken From Russell Brand's Under The Skin Podcast #46 With Jordan Peterson
Here, they discuss the devouring mother archetype and it's role in modern civilization.
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Doing too much for your children is the same as telling them that you have no faith in their ability to acheive on there own. So dont be surorised if those same children grow up to have a weak if not no self confidence at all.
But the punchline is this: "They will hate their mother".
Damn. I didn’t see that; but now I won’t be able to unsee that.
@@lynnehood2198 None of my three kids speak to their mother.
Yip. I know this to much. Working on it..
How do you shine that light on a mother without them getting defensive
My mother stole my identity so that I'd be in financial ruin and have to depend on her for my entire adult life.
Stole. My. Identity.
She literally became me. Name a more devouring mother. I'll wait.
Disgusting. Im sorry for your struggle
That's a federal crime and perhaps it's time to teach your mother boundries.
I hope u can somehow bring ur mother to court or some shit! Pray u heal
@Holly Gamble Mine, almost the same, plus she tells all her thoughts loudly, total dehumanazing mother goethel.
That’s horrible, but it’s a slippery slope. Don’t let yourself become so much of a victim that you reincarnate into the perpetrator.
my mom vicariously lived through me. Made me go to a school she wanted, made me play the sports she wanted me to play, told me over and over again that I had to go to college because otherwise I'd be a failure. Whenever I expressed what I wanted to do she screamed at me and guilted by saying how much she was spending to help me and that I was ungrateful. Just insane. Like she cared about what other people might think of her more than anything
Hi, my mother did the same thing, and I’m fucked! Just graduated college and now feel like myself once. But my parents are pressuring me to do something again. But scared to move forward. What have you done?
What have you done about it?
@@aaliyahscott9523 It was a very rough 10 years for me after college but I feel like i am fully back on my feet and in control of my life. I cant tell you what to do because i dont know enough about the situation. My advice is think about what you want your life to be. Maybe listen to some youtube videos about establishing boundaries. My life is better than its ever been and getting better and yours can too but it took me a while to formulate it and its a very simple life for me, I dont need ferraris etc
I’m 21 turning 22 and my mum still calls me prince, I understand that having a loving mother is great but sometimes it’s WAY too much.
I have an older brother who does F all around the house and I try my best too keep it clean and tidy, cleaning up after him. The other day there were some things too put into the loft and I kindly asked whether she could ask my older brother.. she lost it started shouting screaming threatened too kick me out.. and then after when she knew she was in the wrong didn’t apologize yet tried being childish and poking me and stuff. I’ve always wanted too move too America and she’s never had my back and always said I think you’d be very lonely ( I’m a people person ). Can anyone from the comment section give me any advice it’d mean the world.
@@zzzzzz5936 I needed too hear that brother, thank. It needs too happen I honestly can’t keep living like this. I appreciate the message and wisdom my friend. Thank👊🏻
@@michaelrobinson2941 forgive your mother and let go of your hate towards her for what shes done so you can change nature
@@michaelrobinson2941 infantilization. She wants u still nearby and also she probably accepted she cant manipulate your older sibling as easily as yourself. My parents treated me like a laborer as well
At least you realize it and can control it to your favor. But hopefully without letting her know that you're pulling away. Because that will make her dig in the claws.
Pixar's Bao is an amazing pop-culture example. She literally eats her son as he tries to leave the home.
Asian mums dude asian mums. She will try to control every aspect of her children's life.
Jesse Livingston YES! I remember watching that short in theaters and immediately thought of that archetype as soon as she ate her son
Well in some ways kid #1 didn't grew up too fast and she still needed him. But she did need to let go
Jesse Livingston Just watched it, wow. That was a perfect representation. It brought me to tears
@@monbjra I had no idea that this was 100% the case until I started dating an asian girl. We were both adults, living on our own but she was hopelessly controlled by her mother. The mother would have her own key to my girlfriends apartment and she would rearrange things to her liking and throw away things that she didn't approve of while my girlfriend was away. And then my girlfriend told me that she would be disowned if she rebelled. It was insane.
Came here after a big blowup with my mother. She visited me at my home bringing some goodies and then proceeded to berate me about my long hair, calling me a girl. This has been a repeated sore-point for years as she belittles me in front of my friends, neighbors, and colleagues. I didn't back down and it got to the point where she crossed a line and I threw her out with her bag full of gifts and everything. I've never used drugs, never been promiscuous, been a "nice, boy" like she wanted...and she still needed to get her claws into me. I'm not even angry. I'm just tired of the YEARS of emotional manipulation.
Women. PLEASE! Pick your battles better.
This world revolves around them. Who are you to seek identity otherwise?!
Wow. I can't even begin to explain how beautiful this is. 2 individuals truly hearing each other and understanding what's truly important. I can also see from Russell's face and mannerisms that he's truly invested in this conversation and that he's not trying to be humourous like he usually would. He understands that there's an appropriate time to be funny and with his respect and admiration of Jordan he's able to calm down a bit. It's exactly how I would be if I truly wanted to hear it directly from Jordan. Truly magnificent.
DON'T rescue the child, but be present w/ the child as they figure it out.
This 👏🏾👏🏾
provide, protect and guide = love. 🙏
Russell is a great listener and knows when he is talking with an intelligent man. Kudos. ❤🇺🇸🙏🏻
Devouring mother thinks she owns her children. Cuz she gave birth to us.
You have to forgive her for what shes done or else you remain subject to her
@@Matt10264 forgiveness is overrated, it’s not always needed for closure
@@franky2347 forgiveness can evolve into careless forgetfulness
@@franky2347you forgive for yourself not others
Why did we have to watch Russell whole video while Jordan is the talking side of the conversation?
I think they had a few different cameras, because I remember watching this and seeing Peterson talk about the "mother archetypes". If you haven't already, watch the entire video, it's fascinating. Surprisingly, Brand and Peterson also share a lot of common ground, especially when it comes to Carl Jung, Christianity, and a fascination with with how different archetypes represent themselves in religion. Yes Russel Brand can be a bit annoying sometimes, but he also brings out the best in Peterson.
Screw up... old Russell
Who cares about the camera angle. It's about what is being said. I didn't even notice the camera view until you mentioned it. Just sayin.
because the cameraman is infatuated
Jordan Peterson isn't really there. The sound clips are edited in from another video
The world is incredible cruel and unforgiving. Many try to control it and make it safer (censor hate speech, lockdowns and tearing down statues) but It cannot be controlled, it is pure chaos, you cut off a head and two grow back. All we can do is teach our children to be strong so they can bear the suffering that is to come.
Best of luck. Peace and love.
Fred’s mom in Icarly is the spot in example of this
I reluctantly returned to living with my parents in my 30's as I have taken on the role of carer for my father,mostly because I know my mother cannot face the fact that Parkinson's is slowly but surely taking him away and that she has a history of physical abuse toward him. She lives in complete denial. I've been asked in excess of 20-50 questions per day (no exaggeration) by her for the past 20 years mostly to do with food as I am the lean member of the family.
Her attitude over time has been so destructive that I have now been diagnosed with severe anxiety and Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder. No matter how gaunt my face appears nor how distressed I become,she goes on doing what she does. People,if this is your situation push yourself to escape it before it consumes you. I'm almost 40 now and haven't had a partner in twelve years,feeling very much like the boy who stayed a boy.
Bro, fucking much respect for sharing, you are opening my eyes, believe it and stay strong and take care man.
Similiar experience myself.
My mother is the typical devouring mother.
Mine too.
The American Chauvinist same here guys, I feel your pain. Do you guys have any tips of breaking free from it, because I have literally have no skills to operate in the world.
guys i now know for a fact my mother is the same. im 25 still living at home, it has caused me so much misery and suffering its not even funny. every time ive entertained the idea of moving out i get this feelings of guilt, because my mother is so fucking immature and attached to me. the crying, mood changes in her and overall her health makes me stay every fucking time but at what cost? i have 5 years left off my "youth", i have a life to live, limits to surpass, ambitions to manifest and unless i make my stomach into a steel block and cut the cord nothing will live and the pain becomes so much to the point of numbness. cut the cords guys, it will pay off in hindsight.
Sahal hey thank you for the advice man, and I hope things work out for you. I want to do the same myself but I truly have been raised as a worthless, useless, loser. I want my to become and independent functioning person so bad but I just don’t know if its possible at this point. Anyways thank you though
@@kevinc721 you matter bro
Lots of great iterations of this archetype in horror stories. Someone pointed out the Pale Lady ghost in the Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark film doesn't kill the child with conventional violence but by lovingly (but grotesquely) embracing the child and absorbing him into her. A similar idea crops up with the ghosts in Haunting of Hill House too
Hill House was too damn scary for me to pick up these points... 😅 Could you elaborate on how the devouring mother crops up there?
@@rubenpartono [spoilers for those who haven't seen it]
One of the climactic reveals is that the thing that happened the night they left the house was their mother had a psychotic break and attempted to poison the twins to death with a little "tea party". It's later revealed from the mother's perspective that upon arriving at the house, she was gradually bombarded with the influence of a ghost who had lived there before named Poppy Hill. Poppy convinces her that the world is cruel and rank with suffering, it will only ever destroy her beloved children, etc. The mother begins receiving visions from the future of her dead children (Nellie being in the morgue and Luke having overdosed on heroin), and her sanity begins to weaken until she's convinced the only way to save her children is to kill them so that they'll be trapped inside the House (like Poppy and her family) as ghosts forever. Ironically, the trauma in her kids after the events at the House is what pushes them toward their prophesied deaths: Nellie is lured back to the house and killed by her mother's ghost, and Luke develops his drug addiction to cope with the visions of the Hill House ghosts.
Ultimately, there is the idea that Being is absolutely a place of horrible suffering, but the negative manifestation of the Maternal that hoards and jealously protects her children from the world is actually one of the great causes for that suffering and horror. At the very end, the siblings (with the tragic exception of Nellie) have survived and they are shown celebrating Luke's 2-year anniversary of sobriety (I think it was 2 years, it was something like that), so there is the idea that the suffering of Being can certainly be endured as well, once the predations of the devouring mother are eventually escaped.
(Also at one point, there's a grotesque vision of a ghostly grinning mother with an ever-swelling womb, as though the child within her is expanding to the size of a full-grown adult but never permitted to be birthed. Strikes me as the same principle as the Oedipal Devouring Mother.)
damn that crap looks like Daryl from the walking dead
Missing from the JBP's analysis and the comments - one of the key features of the "devouring mother" is to talk! Talk, talk, talk.... Whenever she's with her children she does all the talking. If they try to speak, she swoops on their half formed sentences and acts dictatorially to either accept the request, or reject it. They grow up listening to their mother's ideas on everything under the sun. If they want to be heard then they have to parrot back to her one of her own ideas - which may get some approval (or may not, if she's getting bored with that "conversation").
They keep saying patriarchy and toxic masculinity.
Toxic femininity is a thing. And all matrarchies are tyrranical, even in the bug world.
My mother fits this archetype a lot but thank god my dad was around to slow the affects down
my dad was around but was completely checked out. Like he had the attitude do what your mother says and dont make my life difficult
My mother ran the home with "mother knows best or else".
The "other mother' from Coraline is such a good example of the dark mother archetype.
People quite often get the archetype wrong, I’m glad Jordan and Russel are there to clarify in simplicity because it can be quite complex.
My husband had a mother like this. He’s 47 now. His parents are now deceased. It’s pretty ugly. He’s lost. No mommy or daddy to fix his problems. That was his normal. It was not normal. It was controlling. He had the Bible verse of honor thy mother and father drilled into his head. I asked him about leaving thy mother and father and cleaving to his wife. He had NEVER heard of it. He had also NEVER heard of selling your cloak to buy a sword. This is why I’m skeptical of church. Preach what you want to hear and ignore the rest. Brainwashing.
Just because someone misused and someone else misunderstood an idea doesn't make the idea incorrect. Just because someone believes an idea doesn't make it valid.
Used the word "honor" as if it is "obey in all things" is not scripturally sound anyway. The best way to honor your parents is to live your life in the best most productive and beneficial way. It's like the "Success is the best revenge" idea.
That's why faith is so important I know when I have kids I have to let godd will play out for them. I cannot try to make them into who I think they should be. Before i started my walk with god I was truly fearful and if I hadn't found god I would probably be a devouring mother.
"The Waterboy"
I agree.One time my son at 12 beat up a peer and while he was hyped up and telling me what happened the father of the boy was riding his bike up to my house,I told my son Ed's dad was coming up the stairs,the doorbell rang when my son tried to run to his room,I said no no no,you go answer the door and tell him what happened and dying he went to answer the door to talk.See I was raising men,not mama's boys.😊
Baldr and Freyja in Norse mythology. Making every object vow to never harm her son, except for mistletoe, is one of the most overprotective prototypes you could think of.
I was literally thinking about this
Jordan Peterson in this video looks great!
This is why, contrary to popular belief, you dont put the child first over the relationship. If you dont maintain the relationship and only focus on the child the relationship will end and the child will more than likely become one of the statistics when it comes to kids raised by single mothers.
That's a stupid argument. The father should be as engaged with the child as the mother. In that way he puts some counter-weight to the mother. A responsible man knows that he downgrades in the hyerarchy once the child is born, and he adopts his role with honor.
What man-child wants to be above the needs of his own son. Pathetic.
@@idratherstayanonimous7020 lol such a child like way of seeing it. You will grow up one day im sure.
@@chesterlestrange7725 There's a balance to all things. You take care of the child and of the relationship, hopefully both share the same importance somehow.
@@idratherstayanonimous7020 firstly I didnt say THE FATHER or I had to be priority over the child. I said the marital relationship has to be the priority. Children fail more often than not if the marriage fails. The marrage taking priority is what is in the child's best interest. Children from broken homes are exponentially more likely to become failed adults. This is very basic stuff. Plus the children will be gone eventually. If you want to be alone or stuck in a loveless marriage because you didn't maintain the relationship in favor of putting the child first at all times its going to be very miserable and lonely in your golden years. Again this is all very well researched and known information. You might want to look into it if you ever decide to get married and have kids.
@@chesterlestrange7725 I sure will do. That's pretty sound. Sorry for getting worked up. My parental complex is showing. Anyway, i guess that's why you solidify your relationship before having a child, and even so, most marriages experience crisis once a child is born, it's unavoidable as the mother will always prefer the well-being of the child above all, under regular circumstances that is. But i keep my point that the father must know that he's low in the hierarchy once a baby is conceived.
my mom made me breakfast and cleaned my room. that doesnt sound like abuse but i now have learned helplessness and cant do anything by myself im afraid to even call the doctor
Most recently seen in the movie "SOLO" in the rapacious water-centipede female who doesn't want Han or his girlfriend to ever leave (the gang, for her purposes).
Soylo
Bro jordan Peterson is right leave your child by themselves, teach them how to actually live
careful ... let them learn safely in your care. not just leave them alone.
I didn't hate mom until her late 60s, but it is etched in stone, now.
Poisonous person.
I like the end part when Russel says “did you enjoy it, yeah? Good weren’t it”? So absolutely down to earth and honest, not like the pretend intellectuals that feel they have to big up their words because JP is in da house!
I wasn’t aware I had a “mother” which is quite strange nor that my late husband’s daughter was somehow my “daughter”. These invisible friendships and relationships cause a lot of pain for everyone, but especially me.
Precious, aka A Life With A Devouring Mother
They will take responsibility for things that are not theirs to take, then accuse you of being irresponsible. Then she will punish you in ways that prevent you from ever being able to do the things she said she wanted you to in the first place.
Life has never been a game, we as humans had to work very hard through harsh times. Teaching the young and letting them pick the roads is the best thing you can do. Over loving can have negative effects well into adult hood.
Russell is a cool dude. I dig Russel.
Is it me or the ladie in raised by wolves the devouring mother?
She protects the children and tries to make them safe where as father android is the one pushes them to survive, but of course mother takes over and cuddles the children
Subscribed for now.
Lysa Arrin! That’s the perfect example.
I love how Pale Lady actually acts like an overly protective mother . The more distressed Chuck becomes , the more she wants to comfort him . That is why she hugs Chuck so that she can make him feel better . But , she is so loving that it is horrifying and she absorbs Chuck .
Stolen comment :/
@@angelblue5947 es
Someone commented this same exact comment on the other video
Dude I came here from that comment from that video, why do you steal?
Where is the whole video, please add the source
I'm having a hard time seeing the fairies as the positive when they seem to be the ones that overprotected Sleeping Beauty...
Yes. That's me.
Devouring and narcissistic parents don't do things FOR you, they do those things to send you messages. Messages are like "I know better than you", "You are incompetent.", "You can never survive without me.". These are not intended to serve the child's needs, they are to serve the extremely pathetic way of life those parents are living, also showing how extremely lost they are in life. My parents don't even have a hobby, they don't have dreams, they don't have goals, my BPD mother and NPD father I don't even think went to a cinema in the last 2 decades, if ever. What they simply do is existing as a slave in my eyes, not living. And ever since I was a kid, they tried to live through me. They also got jealous because I always have my own interests and were pretty capable even as a little kid.
Mine don't even listen to music.
Please tell me : how does one survive this type of parents? They GROOMED you to be dependant forever so even in your 20s it's impossible to escape and when you try you end up terribly mentally ill (anxious, suicidal, etc). How does one survive having to live with a mother like that in their 20s? I honestly feel homicidal.
My father was a devouring mother in a masculine sense. And my mother was as well in a classical sense. Haha. A fuckin hell.
My grandmother
A book about the father archetype?
Shadows
I call my mother a witch really 😢😂😢. Pluto moon conjunction
The dude not on the camera sounds like justin roiland, when he spoke the first think i thought was Rick?
Weird camera work.
Bro that dude jordan Peterson is talking to looks like that dude from bed time stories😂 I’m talking about skeeters friend
Hey presto ! A possible Noman Bates on the loose 😳
Peterson is just common sense and a great deal of understanding through observation.
But he's not the ultimate authority.
This is a key take. Thanks for sharing that point
Peterson claims that a religious viewpoint always gives you both aspects of the archetype, but at the same time claims Christianity's view of the mother is mostly positive in the virgin mary. Doesn't that mean Christianity is not religious by this logic? or perhaps more sensibly, that it is lacking a view of women as they really are? And could that actually be responsible for the large amount of devouring mothers in western fairy tales, to compensate for christianity's lack of the bad mother archetype?
He did say that religion usually has posative and a negative viewpoint on things. I know in the bible there are many posative portrayals of women and also negative. It is the same with men or any topic. But putting that aside I think all he was doing was clarifying that there is some good in being a protective attentive mother but there are negative things that can be a result of it if it's not balanced. I know this all to well bc my mother is a very lovely person but hovered way too much. It did not help me in my life. In fact it hindered me quite a bit. But she meant well and luckily I have recognized that. He is just using religion as a general way to explain that there is good and bad that can come from most things. The point is that he wasn't saying all attentive mothers are bad.
Christianly has no example of this. If you wanna look, look at Hindu gods. Shiva and Kali dynamic.
Jezebel is the most obvious negative vision of the feminine. She's the definition of the evil queen, the witch, and the harlot.
I never smothered my son and yet he still HATES me (he's 17). I'm hoping he figures out that I'm not the bucket for his rage and anger (no idea what he's so angry about). His father isn't in his life but my son stood in judgement of my x and thought, no thanks, and while I get that, it is my son who has rejected the relationship not his father. I'm hoping my son will conclude one day that an adult to adult relationship with a woman who happens to be his mother is tolerable. 😕
Having another man around your son whose not his father is horrible
You answered your own question when you said you were divorced. That tears a young man apart! And your self-righteous indifference to his pain doesn't help.
you don't need a relarionship with your children. If you need food, medicines, shelter: ask. If you are gonna give them advice, give it. But they are not your friends not babies anymore, they are independent adults.
@@ameza1757Nailed it 🔥
@@zsedcftglkjh
This Susana
And your tone
To me it's just, "foolish parents".
Anyone else hear a woman’s voice at 2:20?
Russel Brand, why use 1 short simple word when you can use 8 un-necessarily long words to try and sound smart, but actually sound very try hard.
This is kinda archetyped too, Jordan Peterson is a super talkative person like most teachers while that Russel Brand is an attractive but disagreeable male who likes to interrupt a conversation. look at his eyes hes having big stress in this simple conversation lmao
its called paying attention
@@victoristratevmi no, look how Ruseel always cuts when Peterson is talking
Are talkative teacher and attractive but disagreeable male really that much of an archetype?
They seem more like stock characters for storytelling to me or at least less universal.
He's focusing on the conversation. I don't see a hint of anger. This is Russell Brand we're talking about.
His argument is nonsensical, and he never actually addresses the archetype of the devouring mother. To state that religion "always incorporates nature" is absurd. Specifically, Christianity as we know it divorces nature and the body from spirit. It is not a nature-based religion at all. That was true in Celtic, Vedic and Native American spirituality, but not Christianity. Never has been. Rather, the body is seen as a source of evil, and nature is something to "have dominion over"; a misinterpretation of the original text, but that is another story. The original language was closer to nature "being stewarded, cared-for". Most current religions present everything as black and white, but that is not the same as a balance of positive and negative. In fact, just the contrary. The "balance of opposites" is what we see in Yin and Yang, representing energies that complement each other. There is no such concept in Christianity or most modern religions. And it is absurd, arrogant and patriarchal to say that the pioneers came to a "barren wasteland" and brought "the positive; meaning progress". The native people that lived here before genocide was committed against them found nature to be spiritual, plentiful, NOT barren. And, they expressed gratitude for everything in nature, even when they killed an animal for food, they thanked its spirit for helping them to live. He is clearly out of his depth here, and you can hear it in the way he stumbled over his words when he recognized it at the time. “The Devouring Mother “consumes” her children psychologically and emotionally and often instills in them feelings of guilt at leaving her or becoming independent.” It is more about narcissism, codependence, emotional immaturity, control and manipulation.
Government has become the Devouring Mother :(
Q: What is worse that the devouring mother?
A: The Left's devouring government.
Disney movies lol hahahahahahaha....who would've thought.#AfdaAlumni #FilmschoolGraduate
Russell’s looks like he’s looking over for help when he asks “Don’t overprotect the baby let it fall over?” 😳
Jordan clearly has childhood issues.
Or maybe you are too dense to understand the actual meaning of that specific example ?
More likely you’re projecting your own issues.
Women will devote their whole lives to their kids until it comes to getting dik. Family, loving relationship, giving your children a grounded future? Hell naw, Bobby showed interest!
well, Russel is beautiful but I don't want to watch his psychosomatic mimicries for 5 minutes okay?
why does russel brands jiu-jitsu jacket have the symbol for ped0s on it?
? what? were?? Whats the symbol? WTF... Russel?
I like Russell Brand but he needs to lose the man bun
Brand thinks like a child 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
😲😳😔
This is only one side of it though, the other side is borderline personality disorder.
Which women are 3 times as likely to have.
Which results in them literally not giving a shit about their kids at all, on whim.
Child homelessness is a big issue and it leads to adult homelessness, and a system of people who don't understand it or attempt to fix the issues.
TBH women are much worse for children than men, either way.