In response to AMD and Apple, we at intel are proud to announce that our 10nm process will now be renamed to Intel 1 nm. This is a 10x improvement on paper and marketing material!
@@syarifairlangga4608 Nope, the first digit in AMD's laptop CPUs literally just ticks up one digit every year. It has no bearing on the architecture. 7840 = 8840. Literally just a model year designation.
They over promised and slowly walked back when they realized it wouldn't be an M1 or Zen moment. That's why OEMs were mad at Intel. OEMs did work hard finding a spot on the market for this thing though.
@@landspide Yeah, which is why Intel is trying to do some freaky stuff with Meteor and soon Arrow lake in an attempt to evolve X86 to keep up. Too bad it seems like they failed this time again. Maybe AMD could dictate what the future of X86 would be like.
@@John.Philip.Tan876 I don't think it is possible, it carries way too much baggage, the weight of legacy is just too much. It might spell the end of windows over the next decade or so (you can only put so much lipstick on a pig). Linux is in a much better position to switch over to ARM, it is just that it is such a small market that the hardware vendors are not interested in going all in for. Basically Apple won this eon for the workstation, just like they did with their phones, everyone and their dogs that I know are buying macbooks now.
The problem with modern day mass computing for consumers is this: You are stuck having to choose between a miserable user experience with fan noise, heat, and short battery life with windows laptops, or a miserable user experience with macOS but having no fan noise, no heat, and great battery life.
Haha, yup. I left that walled garden because it was rotting. But great hardware isn't enough for me to dismiss bad software. Not that MacOS is inefficient, it's just so "stiff" compared to Windows, and God I've hated the design language since Johnny Ive puked all over the software.
i all use all Windows, Mac and Linux OS. MacOs is not that bad. It might actually better than windows for user that do not want to tinker with their laptop much. The issue for me iis gaming on mac is just such a bad thing haha
Lol, windows is massive bloatware, actively contributing to planned obsolescence to sell more licenses. I don't know why people torture themselves with windows when the major linux distros currently work OOB on most hardware, including stuff that's 10 years old. Even gaming on linux is pretty much on par with Windows these days. MacOS is a fine alternative for anyone who doesn't like gaming or tinkering.
Meteor lake looks like a step in the right direction, while it only closes the gap a bit, it paves the way for future generations to built on an actually viable architecture and be a match for Apple and AMD once again.
Honestly it looks like from the beginning they were going to focus on this AI aspect of the chips. Then Very early in the process apple rocked their world and all the influencers caught on to how people want battery life and efficiency. The ability to perform ONLY on demand is insanely useful for a laptop. Intel was very much all or nothing and basically assumed you were going to be plugged into the wall. The reason this isn't the giant leap ppl hoped for is they already saw the leap from M processors and intel has to work inside windows with more problems around compatibility concerns. The benefits of a company that controls the entire ecosystem is they can well, control everything. The next iteration of this chip will be THE one to get I'm expecting.
x86 will never be competitive in mobile due to all of its legacy CISC instructions. But it's still king in any place where power draw is not a priority. ARM (or similar RISC) is the king in mobile, and Apple wants it to be the king everywhere
Hold on, they've introduced multi-tile expensive architecture and it's not delivering even the expected energy & performance benefit of the node shrink? The samples they sent out even had faster expensive LPDDR than used on production models, probably to boost iGPU performance in benchmarks. The limited sampling reminds me of Nvidia's play with 4060 to gain favourable buzz from shill reviewers. This doesn't bode well. Either the Foveros works and delivers measurable benefits vs Phoenix/Hawk Point, or Intel are left with a complex, expensive architecture that is hard to produce because it mixes n matches nodes, but fails to better the competitions 2023 chip.
I have Intel CPU laptop that's 5 years old and still does everything I need. RUclipsrs think everyone need a Ferrari performance. Battery life, on the other hand, was never good so that could use improvements.
Check the prices. These laptops are priced decently, and are specced with sufficient ram and disk space. The MSI is 1400 usd for a 32GB, 1TB config, that is nearly half of similar specced MacBook m3, if it had same performance as M3 it would be a massive steal. The concerning part is they are not able to get to the same perf even if they wanted to. But for a lot of people 1400 usd for a laptop is a lot more in reach.
1400 i'd get a macbook and enjoy 15hrs of batt life untethered to a wall. Besides, 99% of the people do not need 32GB and 1TB, majority is fine with half of that
@@delta0307 i honestly don't understand why super long battery life is even necessary. You only need that much battery life if you have a very long layover (and even this, many airports already have the wall sockets, where you can just charge your laptop. And when you want to take out your laptop to coffeeshops (again), most of them already have wall sockets, and you won't be there for over 3-4 hours anyway
@@donnieamz2938 in coffee shops, people cram areas with wall sockets so you won't be guaranteed a wall socket all the time. Even in airports, people hog areas where there are wall sockets. In my case where I move a lot and I'm at the mercy of clients where they want to meet and where they sit, it's nice that I do not have to worry about these things. Back then on my windows, I would find my running out of batt mid day and I have to force myself to look for a socket somewhere just to juice up wasting a lot of time
@@donnieamz2938 Nah battery life is always something you can't get enough of. Saying 3-4 hours is enough because "you won't really be there anyway" is just dishonest. That 15 hours of the MacBook is while watching Netflix, while on load it can last 2-4 hours. A laptop that lasts 3-4 hours on idle, might last 20-40 minutes on load, which makes it basically a laptop for grandmas. That's why more battery life is important.
It seems that showing 110°C CPU temps is not a software fault. Looking at Intel ARK site, T junction max for Core Ultra processors has been bumped from 100°C to 110°C so it can actually touch those temps.
@@JustJoshTech Yeah. I do wonder how heat generation is not reduced in the new design since it uses smaller transistor size(7nm), discrete chiplet design, lower boost clocks than Raptor Lake counterparts and lower TDP. In all likelihood, I expected thermals to improve further while they look worse or at par with RPL for same performance level in initial designs. May be some gaming systems with ample cooling can shed more light on this.
For the iGPU bench, what is the memory configuration/timing on the Meteor Lake ? for iGPU the memory differences are a huge change, f.e. a Radeon 780M on 5600 DDR5 vs a 6000 DDR5 is quite a bit different ... so comparing the results without the information being present is misleading ...
I feel from the results that the 7840U is still the winner here. Longer battery life even with a smaller battery, more performance per watt... iGPU is truly a big step up, but I worry that in games the 780M will still be beating it despite its Timespy score being lower...
@@tringuyen7519 I watched other reviews and honestly it didn't look too bad for Intel but yes, I am excited to see more data and honestly, I WILL indeed be positively surprised if MTL ties or wins :D but I remain hopeful. More competition in iGPU performance is very good for AMD
Exactly my thoughts, If I'm buying a non apple laptop for daily productivity tasks I'd consider AMD U series chip as it has vastly better battery life compared to Intel ones.
What sucks is laptop manufacturers don't recognize AMDs performance per wattage. Top of the line premium laptops all feature Intel, from Dell to ThinkPad. It's so backwards, I suspect it's a contract thing
@@reviewchan9806 The reason why it's this way is because Intel designs the laptops for the ODMs, so they might pay the same for the chip as with AMD (or more, since AMD is usually cheaper) but save a ton of money in R&D by not having to design the laptop. While Intel earns less money this way, I guess in the end it pays off for them due to volume? AMD also does this, I am sure, just in a much lower quantity, and I am pretty sure they know better than us how much or little would they earn if they were more or less aggressive... Or I hope they know lol
I was out for a new laptop for software development and you have no idea how stressful Intel and AMD confusing models were. Add to this the availability in the markets around the world and combining other configurations like RAM size. I could never find the configuration I wanted no matter the compromises I made and I couldn't get to an i7 32GB surface laptop. Finally, I got myself a mac and paid the extra price although I love Windows so much :'(
if you want a decent laptop that runs linux/windows give up on battery life, at least until qualcomm produce something that linux users will adopt. I just upgraded from an XPS15 after 8 years to a Lenovo Slim/Yoga 9i, it is a big improvement all around, with the exception of battery life, it is horrendous. I dual boot linux and the only major issue is the audio support (which is apparently getting fixed in upcoming kernel release). Just expect to carry a charger with you everywhere, at least until Intel give in and realise the mistake they made selling xscale to marvell. I do use a Lenovo Duet 5 (Chromebook) for light work which has great battery life but poor performance (a glimmer of hope is there for the future)
I'm so confused. You couldn't find the configuration you wanted so you paid more money for an inferior product? Why even buy a surface laptop instead of a regular Windows laptop on top of that you can literally go out and get a i7 32gb surface pro right now it's definitely available 🤔
@@lunawense6288 no one can call it an inferior product at all. The only surfaces available are in the 12th gen and produces lots of heat and fan noside compared to the M3. Still they are amazing devices, but I just wanted a laptop which can serve me for the next 10 years like my old one did. I just wanted something to buy and forget.
@@lunawense6288Mac isn't an inferior product in literally any way except that he prefers in windows. At this point macs beat every single windows laptop with their eyes closed, no competition. Just look at the benchmarks.
I'm allergic to laptop fan noise. Completely unacceptable unless the computer is running under sustained load. Biggest weakness of my 9500 xps is the fan is always running, my 5520 latitude under full load has a barely perceptible fan noise.
I just bought a new Asus Zenbook with Core Ultra 7. I have to say I have been very impressed with the laptop and the CPU inside. Battery life is actually very good. the iGPU is quite good on paper and with some significant driver improvements gaming has gotten a lot better since this review was done. 4K video playback from RUclips while streaming over WiFi was about 13 hours. My Geekbench 6 scores were easily better than an Apple M3. Finally doing some light Python programming and fooling around with the NPU, I was able to run a Llama LLM model with very little heat and fan noise since the software was taking advantage of the NPU on die. I think the main problem was that Intel's and their OEM partners didn't have the software ecosystem fleshed out at launch. That seems to be a recurrent problem. But the fact is with BIOS, OS and driver updates the platform has improved a lot in 5 months.
OEMs still insist on putting AMD in 2nd tier products. This year (2024), it's getting harder to find AMD laptops with discrete graphics. The top tier models tend to be using Intel exclusively. I suspect the typical Intel sabotage they've been known to be doing for years. (or AMD's inability to provide adequate amount of chips?). Thanks for the honest review!
I watched 3 different reviews of meteor lake all use the same laptop with the same cpu core ultra 155H but each have different battery life. The poorest battery life I saw is in this channel while hardware Canucks got the highest battery (20hours). Which battery mode was used when running battery life test here ?
Hi, love your videos. Two things I’ve noticed though. First one is the battery graphs show remaining battery instead of consumed battery, which, despite being better for visualization, don’t linearize well for comparison (For example, a computer with 30% remaining battery didn’t spend double the energy as one with 60% remaining, despite one value being double of the other, which affects comparison). Another thing I’ve noticed is you don’t show processor efficiency while doing lightweight tasks such as media consumption or browsing, which, for most people, is what 90% of their time using the computer’s going to look like. I’d say efficiency while doing lightweight tasks is WAY more important than at full load, so it would be nice to have those numbers.
The Arc GPU is a great upgrade, and I am curious what other software (especially creative photo/music/video) takes advantage of the A.I features. I knew the battery life and stuff wouldn't be too much an improvement, but I think it's impressive given that Intel 4 is still on a 7nm node (I believe). For that, it's actually quite impressive. On the desktop Intel is definitely still leading the X86 market, mostly because they can blast power efficiency out the window for raw performance lol. On laptop, I'm looking forward to them continuing to catch up in manufacturing process, but as a creative person I think the neural chip will actually be used a lot by the likes of Adobe, Black Magic, Affinity etc.
I don't know why people keep saying Intel 4 node is actually 7nm while they are ok with other manufacturers like TSMC or Samsung to use 4nm naming for the same level of performance.
@@lightninghell4 that's what I'm saying. but people still keep saying. "yeah~ TSMC 4nm, Samsung 4nm~" "nonono! Intel 4 is actually 7nm!" even they are same level.
Lolol, that's a ridiculous take. Arc is good on Timespy not games which is the mainstay consumer market. The AI unit only matches Phoenix, the Hawk Point one has a large boost over it. As for Quicksync benefitting creative, that's there in Raptor, so you're being asked to buy an expensive multi-tile chip that's not delivering on Intel 7 -> 4 expected process improvements. This new arch, turns out not to be desktop worthy, missed its iGPU performance target and on CPU matches 2023 range, not the coming 2024 processor launches.
@Josh, great analsysis and you actually considered a lot of factors in a scientific way and combined them to provide a better understanding. Just a complain, the comparison between Radeon 780M (in Pavilion Plus 14) and the Arc igPU in ZenBook 14, I think is a bit unfair. Pavilion Plus is pretty conservative in Power curve and only provides around 25W sustained and 28W Max whereas as per your review, ZenBook was pulling over 50W for shorter time and then keeping it over 30W during long run. Can you please do a comparison, restricting both at same Wattage, may be using the Legion Slim 7 and limiting both to 30W?
I just noticed the in Josh's geekbench multicore the legion's 7840HS performed worse than the 7840u in the pavilion. Is that a typo or is the legion messed up?
I hoped for more from Meteor Lake, but still, this seems like a decent upgrade from Intel which hopefully sets the foundation for future improvements. I do wish that RUclips contributors would stop with the constant MacBook comparisons. The MacBook Pro 14 (M3 Pro 11C) is $2599 if upgraded with comparable RAM and storage. The MacBook Pro 16 (M3 Max 16C) is $3999. Should they really be compared to $1299 (Zenbook 14) and $1449 (Prestige 16) laptops? Beyond that point, many users must have x86-64 compatibility (drivers for devices, etc.), or must have Windows and would find running Windows on Arm as their primary OS via virtualization on a Mac to be an unnecessary inconvenience.
Yes I understand that Shane. Thats why we included alot of PC laptop comparisons for you as well. I feel its important to be comprehensive here. Please also note that by showing you the MacBook Pro M3 Pro, which btw is Apple's mid range processor similar to the Meteor Lake H series, it allows you to see part of the reasons why MacBooks are so much more expensive. Then you can decide if its worth it to you to spend more
@@JustJoshTech Thanks for the explanation! Perhaps in these situations you could link to a disclaimer video with the "Apple tax and technical reasons why macOS and/or Apple Silicon may not be suitable for your use cases" information. I'm a computer nerd and programmer myself, so I don't really need this information, but I worry that a less tech-savvy shopper might watch your videos and decide to go all out on a MacBook Pro 16 only to find that it is completely unsuitable for their use cases. Anyway, thanks for the quality content on your channel!
I've seen tests for M3 chips reaching 108 Celsius under load, comparable to the chips you tested. No wonder you forgot to include them alongside Core Ultra in the test. I can agree it's not revolutionary, but still an impressive upgrade over last generation of Intel chips.
@@JustJoshTechI didn't mean to be rude. Sorry for that. I also think you should include GPU performance on M3 into the chart. Otherwise the test is skewed Apple way. Don't get me wrong here - I believe from pure daily driver performance M3 is the best chip out there right now. Still as a casual gamer I would consider it twice, despite recent improvements in Mac gaming.
@Just Josh, those graphics results are a tad suspect. Do you know what ram MSI and Asus supplied with those laptops and what speed were the modules clocked to?
2:27 : I don't know why, I feel like the rebrand isn't as confuse as I think. Well... maybe I'm too smart or already well adapted, I don't know. I only watching or seeing that repeatedly, I feel familiar
5:25 I am a fan of computer tech since the amiga 500 and I never ever heard anyone saying he wants his device be better/ more performant for AI. But till the apple m-series I never heard anyone not complaining about battery
There's at least one change to the P-core architecture compared to Raptor Lake if Wikipedia is accurate -- they doubled the L1 cache per core to 64KB. L2 cache remains the same, except that apparently each cluster of four E-cores now only gets 2MB, not 4MB. Very odd if true. According to some Intel slides, the E-cores have improved branch prediction and IPC. They also claim the P and E cores give "improved feedback" to Intel Thread Director. I don't have an Intel PC with P and E cores, so haven't run into any situations where tasks are running on the wrong type of core. But I know others have, so hopefully there's some noticeable improvement here. Though part of the problem seems to be Windows not really explaining to users what different performance profiles mean.
I would love to ditch Apple and go back to Linux/Windows dual booting. But until they get onboard with ARM, I don't see any world where AMD or Intel can compete with the power efficiency of Apple. They really need to make a drastic unforseen change to really even compete. Right now you basically have to have a solid reason why you can't use MacOS to even consider Intel/AMD. (Price definitely counts as one.) And AMD is firmly ahead of Intel as well. So the tree now is basically: Is there a really good reason MacOS doesn't work for me? No -> Buy Mac Yes -> Buy AMD But I want the highest end gaming laptop and manufacturers keep putting Intel in those for some damn reason: Sigh, fiiiiine. I guess I'll get Intel and deal with the heat, noise and crappy battery life.
AMD-U series can easily compete with M2 chips. M3 is ahead in some metrics but I expect that to once again change with Zen 5, so I would say they are neck a neck. AMD just needs to force laptop makers to lower the power limits...
@@VideogamesAsArt In performance they are competitive for sure. It's just the amount of power they need to do it. They claim those numbers at 15 watt TDP, but it's not strictly accurate. This is borne out by simply comparing the battery life and heat generation. MacBooks get ridiculously good performance without even a fan because even under intensive load they sip power. It's why cloud providers are building ARM chips left and right too, the power efficiency advantages are massive and at scale that's incredibly obvious. And as you go up in performance against the Apple Pro and Max chips, likewise that power efficiency becomes again increasingly obvious. I have two MacBook Pros, (one given by my work) I frequently run multiple VMs, machine learning workloads, docker, etc all at once. Just hammer those processors. Ask me what the fans sound like though, and I honestly couldn't tell you.
@@17arando I think you have been paying little attention to some (sadly) not very mainstream AMD chips. Bergamo wipes the floor with any ARM datacenter chips (check Level 1 techs or ServeTheHome for that) and Josh's own video about the Framework 13 with AMD Ryzen 7040 shows how efficient they are if power limited. I myself bought a Framework with Ryzen 5 7640U for my partner and I have heard the fans twice in 2 weeks, and I had to get my ear close to the laptop. BTW, I am NOT claiming they are MORE efficient than Apple. I just think they are neck a neck, at least from all the data I have seen. M3 might beat AMD in more than half the occasions, but it is a newer chip and AMD's next gen will definitely come sooner than M4, so... trading blows once again.
We need to hope AMD starts working better with manufactures, and more often as well. At present, a big reason flagships usually have Intel is because Intel works more closely with manufacturers to do this. This just seems like a company choice AMD hasn't been pursuing much, given how things turn out similarly on the desktop side with game drivers, prebuilts, and more. We know AMD can do a lot with the Zephyrus G14 for example, but they need to keep working with manufactures if they want to take a bite out of the market in a significant way
@@trademarktmel Yeah, I think AMD not being in the high end windows laptops is honestly hurting their sales. I really did want to consider switching, I just replaced my personal MacBook yesterday, but all the machines that could have tempted me away were all stuck with Intel CPUs and as someone who works remotely and travels a lot, it just wasn't tenable. Of course AMD still doesn't perform nearly as well on battery power, so I don't know if I ultimately would have pulled the trigger, but at least it would have been a serious consideration. Ultimately though, at some point if Intel and AMD aren't going to switch to ARM, they need to invent something comparable. It's time for a real change.
"None of my viewers have ever asked for a laptop for better AI"......... I have, multiple times. How rude of you to try speak on us (your viewers) behalf.
Was the fan noise measured on performance mode? If it’s on that mode I would want it working as hard as possible to cool it so I wouldn’t mind the noise on that mode
When Intel brought in Pat, I thought maybe they'd actually change for real. Based on what they've released, the culture is still the same. The latest marketing BS about "core truth" tells me the sick parts of intel is still cancerous.
Could you do another evaluation? There have been a lot of updates since the launch of the Core Ultra. I suppose that many updates were significant since the Ultra is a first-gen product, and I'm interested in knowing the impact.
Comparing 7730u with 155h and saying "worse battery life" is ridiculous. Totally different tiers of processors. Half of your testing is totally skewed. However I agree that intel is still no good.
Meteor Lake P cores are essentially the same IP as Raptor Lake. None of your tests would show off the benefits of the LPe cores, all you did was run the laptops at full load which is not where the power improvements on this chip are suppose to occur.
I think it looks great. Almost a best of all worlds at least in Windows world. Best IGP in Windows, lower substrate idle power than AMD, almost the same single core performance as Intel last gen but at much better efficiency, better multicore and efficiency, the LP-E cores for idle parking, and this is before the new AI features. Not matching Apple performance per watt yet, but that's what Royal Core is for.
I think it will truly be a best of all world in Linux world. Windows is just so messed up nowadays, a complete mess, full of bloatware, spyware and a constantly lagging outdated scheduler. Intel wouldn't have had to create Thread Director for Linux. Neither AMD have the normal chiplet + 3Dcache chiplet problems.
I honestly don't know what's going on with their marketing and management team. Instead of confusing the naming of the lineup and using 13th Gen still, they should've: 1) Made the entire lineup 14th Gen architecture wise 2) Branded the U series as the Intel "Core" series, and the H series as Intel "Core Ultra", simplifying the lineup immensely 3) Should've released the H series later on in January to let it improve even more, basically opposite of what they did I want Intel to really bring the fight to Apple since AMD powered laptops are unfortunately not as easily available for most
I liked the raw power of Intel CPUs on a desktop. For laptops, AMD and Apple's M series CPUs are better in most cases. AMD's single core is worse for simple tasks, but it provides better multi-core and battery life performance.
@tomaszcodasz How? The only advantage of the M series CPUs are battery life. With a desktop, that advantage no longer exists. One can argue the operating system, but that isn't the CPU issue.
@@akin242002 Actually it is much faster for my development work, I've stopped used Intel completely. It is blazing fast for javascript, so all heavy SPA pages. I have M1 and it is faster than 11th Intel desktop processor, runs without fan and I have great local dev environment with vscode + brew. I wouldn't take any job if someone force me to work on Intel crap.
The thing is that porting the P-core aquitecture to a new process node, that is Intel 4, we should expect increased performance, at least from increased clock speeds. That it didn’t happens, is sign that Intel 4 is botched (not surprised).
Very small differences between generations from Intel Apple and amd. Everyone's just making space on the chip for ai processors. Same cores same igpu etc.
The big change should cone with gen 15, this is little more than a refresh. Intel need to rethink their lack of interest in ARM based chips though, I don't think they'll be as niche as they think they'll be.
There's a rumor that NVIDIA will be entering the consumer CPU space with their own ARM-based chips. I'm definitely more interested in that than I am in anything Intel or AMD has on the market right now.
I worry that Intel wants us to think that the next one is that will truly be the one. Before 13th gen Raptor Lake came out, Pat said 'Raptor Lake will for once and for all leave AMD in the rear mirror' LOL
The Zenbook should have been compared to the Air, which is closer in price. A M3 Pro or Max is not a fair comparison. The person in the market for the Zenbook in this video will not cross shop a MacBook Pro. They might cross shop an Air though. The price difference is too great. It really isn't fair to compare a $1,300 laptop vs twice as expensive or more MacBook Pro (price will depend on the type of Pro or Max chip used)?
Thinking of getting this one for my wifey, with 155H/32GB/1TB, 2.8K OLED being the key here as she is into photography and some video editing. Myself I got the EliteBook 835 G10 7840U/32GB/2TB Samsung 990 Pro with FHD which is sufficient for me, but business class matters more, running Opensuse Tumbleweed (linux).
How is it possible to make this so confusing for a huge company. Literally 1 well informed computer YT creator like yourself or others could come up with a much better naming system on a peace of paper in under an hour that would convey what is needed while also informing the consumer so they know what they are getting. I would think this is almost purposefully done but I dont see how it could help them. Its not going to lead to more sales so WTF is wrong with these executives. Perhaps its time to clear the field (Get rid of old intel staff) as well as bring in NON_TECKi staff to explain to nerds why these naming conventions are absurd to normal people in society.
So, for the ultrabook chips, the CPU is a nominal increase in performance, but hopefully improved efficiency for increased battery life (TBC). The new ARC GPU significantly improves the ancient 13-Gen, but it only catches up on 3-4 years of woeful iGPU performance. My best take is better late than never. AI marketing is the strategy to sell when the rest is underwhelming, and only time will tell if that adds up to more than background blur on your webcam. This closes the gap on the M3 chips, but they remain chasing Apple's shadow on this gen, at least as far as the ultrabook chips are concerned.
Thats not true. Sorry. The Meteor Lake processor we have is a replacement to the 13700H. That is around M3 Pro. M3 base is more of a U series competitor as its Apple's lowest model.
Thanks. Josh. Simplify product stack = Customer is not confused = Profits lost. No going to happen soon with intel. Apple is selling end product laptop = different circumstances
From the gaming comparisons I've seen despite doing much better in timespy, the 780m either performs better or is inky slightly behind. I'd assume it does handily win in productivity since Intel has a track record of being great, in that category.
It's a higt time Intel spent more time improving its GPU. In my company, I had to buy 40+ portable models and decided to go with AMD version. Our software did not work with Intel GPU (!), was too laggy and throttling caused our apps to display motion...sometimes slower, sometimes faster, depending on how much power was assigned to GPU/CPU. In AMD version - we never had similar issues.
It's pretty telling when the 7840u, is beating the latest "Ultra" chip by quite a large margin in performance per watt.. Meteor Lake isn't realistically Phoenix's competition. It's going to be competing with Hawk Point, soon to be shipping. A bit worrying.
The Intel Ultra 7 165H outperforms the Ryzen 7 7840u according to Geekbench 6 test scores. The Intel Ultra 7 165U underperforms the Ryzen 7 7840U, especially on the multi-core scores. 9511 vs 11509. The ARC GPU doesn't have the GPU power of the Radeon 780M (6 vs 8 TFLOPS). Thus, gaming and video/photo editing should be done on an AMD CPU if the laptops doesn't include a Nvidia dedicated GPU.
@dbod4866 Well they got it confused or flat out wrong. Radeon 780M > Any iGPU from Intel. Intel's external GPUs are better, but for the price, might as well get an older Nvidia 3000s series GPU.
Let me share some insight on what happened so you understand. When we got the laptops, many tests did not run at all. Then we had to travel for another event to cover for you guys. So we had limited time. But we will be adding a real world game benchmark as well as some creative tasks in future. Please understand more goes on than us getting a laptop and being lazy with it
@@JustJoshTech If the tests didn't run isn't that worth stating in the video? There's no garuntee its just because of early drivers, if software needs to be updated to support Meteorlake and there's going to be compatibility issues.. im sure people would like to know.
I'm disappointed. CPU performance is more or less the same as the 13th gen. Efficiency improvement is not that much. As you can see in the video it still lags behind AMD U series and not to mention macs. GPU performance is a good upgrade. No idea about NPU and how useful it will be in windows. I expected Intel to become competitive with Apple but alas. It will most likely have slightly improved battery life and temperature but other than that nothing much except good igpu performance.
For a civil engineer, what laptop do you recommend? I look for a long battery life and it does not need to be connected to use its potential. I would like a MacBook but many programs are not compatible with IOS. please help
AMD ThinkPad z13 and z16 are pretty good for this particular use case. The highee core count and efficiency works well with heavily threaded workloads.
Abysmal integrated graphics have been a thing with Intel processors since time immemorial so it's really nice to see them taking a major step forward in this area.
Intel beating Amd. Meanwhile Amd fanboy : Lets pretend we don't see it, let's keep coping while also downplay it. Amd fanboy is still happier to see grandma Lisa milking them with the same cpu and gpu like Strix point aka Amd 8000 series 🤣
An excellent presentation on the new Meteor Lake chips. I would buy a Meteor Lake laptop with exceptional battery life in a heartbeat. I use Windows devices for business purposes and do not understand why Intel cannot make chips which rival Apple Silicon.
As a feedback, you should test actual games to conclude the performance of the new iGPU. Running 3D Mark is a poor representation of actual performance.
I wish we had a socketed desktop part, since the chassis and firmware of these laptops is making it so hard to tell if the chip can be good or if the laptop complete package is messing with things. And hopefully some firmware/driver/software updates will sort out some of the weirder or inconsistent results some reviewers are seeing. I would love to see intel be more competitive, I'm not totally sure this does that, but they've put all their chips into this disaggregated design, so honestly I feel like we have to wait until Arrow Lake, or maybe some mini-PC desktops of Meteor Lake to see how far this disaggregated design scheme can go. I don't really trust Windows laptop makers to make strong firmware, or adequate cooling with sensible fan curves, which is sad. So I wait to see it in a desktop form factor of some kind before truly passing judgment on the whole Foveros thing. This release could have been more amazing, but the most charitable thing I can say is they've invested in architecture this time around, setting up for the next one to be more impressive, whereas this one had too much change to also manage a crazy performance win vs AMD/Apple. Less charitable is to say they had to reinvent their whole tech stack just to keep up/tread water near where AMD/Apple are... I'm glad to see them take a slow/measured approach if it sets them up for success in the future, but "the future" can't always be years away. I do hope there is some dividends paid for all this when Arrow Lake and beyond come out. Also, if they refresh Alder Lake/Raptor Lake an additional time, I think I'm going to cry. Please, Intel stop refreshing that gen beyond this point! No more! I know it's silly, but with how much they're promising to "revolutionize" all their stuff, seeing them put out kind of the same thing three times between then and now before finally launching Meteor Lake is a bit maddening.
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In response to AMD and Apple, we at intel are proud to announce that our 10nm process will now be renamed to Intel 1 nm. This is a 10x improvement on paper and marketing material!
Intel FNN1++
All process names are marketing terms, intel is still competitive
And here we at AMD got greedy and launched 8000 series with no improvement from 7000 series
@@computerscience1101 i think its just iGPU upgrade but not the CPU.
@@syarifairlangga4608 Nope, the first digit in AMD's laptop CPUs literally just ticks up one digit every year. It has no bearing on the architecture. 7840 = 8840. Literally just a model year designation.
They over promised and slowly walked back when they realized it wouldn't be an M1 or Zen moment. That's why OEMs were mad at Intel. OEMs did work hard finding a spot on the market for this thing though.
the elephant in the room is ARM, sitting there looking at x86 trying to act and look like it is still in its 20s.
@@landspide Yeah, which is why Intel is trying to do some freaky stuff with Meteor and soon Arrow lake in an attempt to evolve X86 to keep up. Too bad it seems like they failed this time again. Maybe AMD could dictate what the future of X86 would be like.
@@John.Philip.Tan876 I don't think it is possible, it carries way too much baggage, the weight of legacy is just too much. It might spell the end of windows over the next decade or so (you can only put so much lipstick on a pig). Linux is in a much better position to switch over to ARM, it is just that it is such a small market that the hardware vendors are not interested in going all in for. Basically Apple won this eon for the workstation, just like they did with their phones, everyone and their dogs that I know are buying macbooks now.
@@landspide Windows on ARM has been out for a long time now. I bet Microsoft will focus much more on it now that we get that nice new snapdragon chip.
@@Pyrioldtrue, but so much if Microsoft's mojo comes from x86, they have been trying to make arm a thing since wince days.
The problem with modern day mass computing for consumers is this: You are stuck having to choose between a miserable user experience with fan noise, heat, and short battery life with windows laptops, or a miserable user experience with macOS but having no fan noise, no heat, and great battery life.
Haha, yup. I left that walled garden because it was rotting. But great hardware isn't enough for me to dismiss bad software. Not that MacOS is inefficient, it's just so "stiff" compared to Windows, and God I've hated the design language since Johnny Ive puked all over the software.
i all use all Windows, Mac and Linux OS. MacOs is not that bad. It might actually better than windows for user that do not want to tinker with their laptop much. The issue for me iis gaming on mac is just such a bad thing haha
Lol, windows is massive bloatware, actively contributing to planned obsolescence to sell more licenses. I don't know why people torture themselves with windows when the major linux distros currently work OOB on most hardware, including stuff that's 10 years old. Even gaming on linux is pretty much on par with Windows these days. MacOS is a fine alternative for anyone who doesn't like gaming or tinkering.
@@oatbear8243 was waiting for the Linux guy. They can’t seem to see the word mainstream.
@@oatbear8243 dont game but can't run my apps on linux, so zero interest to me, Windows still better than MacOS
i like how Josh just says things straight to point and doesnt shill, he just speaks it as it is
Meteor lake looks like a step in the right direction, while it only closes the gap a bit, it paves the way for future generations to built on an actually viable architecture and be a match for Apple and AMD once again.
Honestly it looks like from the beginning they were going to focus on this AI aspect of the chips. Then Very early in the process apple rocked their world and all the influencers caught on to how people want battery life and efficiency. The ability to perform ONLY on demand is insanely useful for a laptop. Intel was very much all or nothing and basically assumed you were going to be plugged into the wall. The reason this isn't the giant leap ppl hoped for is they already saw the leap from M processors and intel has to work inside windows with more problems around compatibility concerns. The benefits of a company that controls the entire ecosystem is they can well, control everything. The next iteration of this chip will be THE one to get I'm expecting.
@@oneupper666Bruh, AMD’s Strix Point Halo with 12 cores, 40 CU RDNA4, & 50 TOPs NPU comes out summer 2024. Intel’s ARL won’t launch until 2025!
go buy the X elite laptops and get stuck in an endless pain of not having supported apps @LocoMated
x86 will never be competitive in mobile due to all of its legacy CISC instructions. But it's still king in any place where power draw is not a priority. ARM (or similar RISC) is the king in mobile, and Apple wants it to be the king everywhere
Hold on, they've introduced multi-tile expensive architecture and it's not delivering even the expected energy & performance benefit of the node shrink?
The samples they sent out even had faster expensive LPDDR than used on production models, probably to boost iGPU performance in benchmarks.
The limited sampling reminds me of Nvidia's play with 4060 to gain favourable buzz from shill reviewers.
This doesn't bode well.
Either the Foveros works and delivers measurable benefits vs Phoenix/Hawk Point, or Intel are left with a complex, expensive architecture that is hard to produce because it mixes n matches nodes, but fails to better the competitions 2023 chip.
I appreciate you for putting your conclusions upfront! And I watched it all the way through anyway.
Thanks!
I have Intel CPU laptop that's 5 years old and still does everything I need. RUclipsrs think everyone need a Ferrari performance. Battery life, on the other hand, was never good so that could use improvements.
It's not about performance, it's about intel failing to compete against Apple and AMD
Check the prices. These laptops are priced decently, and are specced with sufficient ram and disk space. The MSI is 1400 usd for a 32GB, 1TB config, that is nearly half of similar specced MacBook m3, if it had same performance as M3 it would be a massive steal. The concerning part is they are not able to get to the same perf even if they wanted to. But for a lot of people 1400 usd for a laptop is a lot more in reach.
1400 i'd get a macbook and enjoy 15hrs of batt life untethered to a wall. Besides, 99% of the people do not need 32GB and 1TB, majority is fine with half of that
@@delta0307 i honestly don't understand why super long battery life is even necessary. You only need that much battery life if you have a very long layover (and even this, many airports already have the wall sockets, where you can just charge your laptop. And when you want to take out your laptop to coffeeshops (again), most of them already have wall sockets, and you won't be there for over 3-4 hours anyway
@@donnieamz2938 in coffee shops, people cram areas with wall sockets so you won't be guaranteed a wall socket all the time. Even in airports, people hog areas where there are wall sockets. In my case where I move a lot and I'm at the mercy of clients where they want to meet and where they sit, it's nice that I do not have to worry about these things. Back then on my windows, I would find my running out of batt mid day and I have to force myself to look for a socket somewhere just to juice up wasting a lot of time
@@donnieamz2938 Nah battery life is always something you can't get enough of. Saying 3-4 hours is enough because "you won't really be there anyway" is just dishonest.
That 15 hours of the MacBook is while watching Netflix, while on load it can last 2-4 hours. A laptop that lasts 3-4 hours on idle, might last 20-40 minutes on load, which makes it basically a laptop for grandmas.
That's why more battery life is important.
@@delta0307I'd give up battery life anyday over being stuck using that apple crap
It seems that showing 110°C CPU temps is not a software fault. Looking at Intel ARK site, T junction max for Core Ultra processors has been bumped from 100°C to 110°C so it can actually touch those temps.
This is super helpful. Thank you, and wow
@@JustJoshTech Yeah. I do wonder how heat generation is not reduced in the new design since it uses smaller transistor size(7nm), discrete chiplet design, lower boost clocks than Raptor Lake counterparts and lower TDP. In all likelihood, I expected thermals to improve further while they look worse or at par with RPL for same performance level in initial designs. May be some gaming systems with ample cooling can shed more light on this.
For the iGPU bench, what is the memory configuration/timing on the Meteor Lake ? for iGPU the memory differences are a huge change, f.e. a Radeon 780M on 5600 DDR5 vs a 6000 DDR5 is quite a bit different ... so comparing the results without the information being present is misleading ...
Cope harder 😂
CPU IPC is practically indistinguishable apparently, from Raptor Lake. No wonder OEMs are upset
I feel from the results that the 7840U is still the winner here. Longer battery life even with a smaller battery, more performance per watt... iGPU is truly a big step up, but I worry that in games the 780M will still be beating it despite its Timespy score being lower...
When reviewers actually try gaming with Intel’s MTL vs AMD’s Hawk point, MTL will get slaughtered.
@@tringuyen7519 I watched other reviews and honestly it didn't look too bad for Intel but yes, I am excited to see more data and honestly, I WILL indeed be positively surprised if MTL ties or wins :D but I remain hopeful. More competition in iGPU performance is very good for AMD
Exactly my thoughts, If I'm buying a non apple laptop for daily productivity tasks I'd consider AMD U series chip as it has vastly better battery life compared to Intel ones.
What sucks is laptop manufacturers don't recognize AMDs performance per wattage. Top of the line premium laptops all feature Intel, from Dell to ThinkPad. It's so backwards, I suspect it's a contract thing
@@reviewchan9806 The reason why it's this way is because Intel designs the laptops for the ODMs, so they might pay the same for the chip as with AMD (or more, since AMD is usually cheaper) but save a ton of money in R&D by not having to design the laptop. While Intel earns less money this way, I guess in the end it pays off for them due to volume? AMD also does this, I am sure, just in a much lower quantity, and I am pretty sure they know better than us how much or little would they earn if they were more or less aggressive... Or I hope they know lol
I was out for a new laptop for software development and you have no idea how stressful Intel and AMD confusing models were. Add to this the availability in the markets around the world and combining other configurations like RAM size. I could never find the configuration I wanted no matter the compromises I made and I couldn't get to an i7 32GB surface laptop. Finally, I got myself a mac and paid the extra price although I love Windows so much :'(
if you want a decent laptop that runs linux/windows give up on battery life, at least until qualcomm produce something that linux users will adopt. I just upgraded from an XPS15 after 8 years to a Lenovo Slim/Yoga 9i, it is a big improvement all around, with the exception of battery life, it is horrendous. I dual boot linux and the only major issue is the audio support (which is apparently getting fixed in upcoming kernel release). Just expect to carry a charger with you everywhere, at least until Intel give in and realise the mistake they made selling xscale to marvell. I do use a Lenovo Duet 5 (Chromebook) for light work which has great battery life but poor performance (a glimmer of hope is there for the future)
I'm so confused. You couldn't find the configuration you wanted so you paid more money for an inferior product? Why even buy a surface laptop instead of a regular Windows laptop on top of that you can literally go out and get a i7 32gb surface pro right now it's definitely available 🤔
@@lunawense6288 no one can call it an inferior product at all. The only surfaces available are in the 12th gen and produces lots of heat and fan noside compared to the M3. Still they are amazing devices, but I just wanted a laptop which can serve me for the next 10 years like my old one did. I just wanted something to buy and forget.
@@lunawense6288Mac isn't an inferior product in literally any way except that he prefers in windows. At this point macs beat every single windows laptop with their eyes closed, no competition. Just look at the benchmarks.
I'm allergic to laptop fan noise. Completely unacceptable unless the computer is running under sustained load. Biggest weakness of my 9500 xps is the fan is always running, my 5520 latitude under full load has a barely perceptible fan noise.
You and me both
I just bought a new Asus Zenbook with Core Ultra 7. I have to say I have been very impressed with the laptop and the CPU inside. Battery life is actually very good. the iGPU is quite good on paper and with some significant driver improvements gaming has gotten a lot better since this review was done. 4K video playback from RUclips while streaming over WiFi was about 13 hours. My Geekbench 6 scores were easily better than an Apple M3. Finally doing some light Python programming and fooling around with the NPU, I was able to run a Llama LLM model with very little heat and fan noise since the software was taking advantage of the NPU on die.
I think the main problem was that Intel's and their OEM partners didn't have the software ecosystem fleshed out at launch. That seems to be a recurrent problem. But the fact is with BIOS, OS and driver updates the platform has improved a lot in 5 months.
Wht do you mean light python?? U run heavy python programming
@@irfanmohd091 python is usually light. But training a resnet50 model on cifar dataset is not
does your unit comes with 32gb RAM Or 16GB?
@@97kxb 16GB. Recently BestBuy had the same laptop down to $749!
really, you got an llm to run on the npu this early? your comment may have single-handedly convinced me to purchase one
OEMs still insist on putting AMD in 2nd tier products. This year (2024), it's getting harder to find AMD laptops with discrete graphics. The top tier models tend to be using Intel exclusively. I suspect the typical Intel sabotage they've been known to be doing for years. (or AMD's inability to provide adequate amount of chips?). Thanks for the honest review!
I watched 3 different reviews of meteor lake all use the same laptop with the same cpu core ultra 155H but each have different battery life. The poorest battery life I saw is in this channel while hardware Canucks got the highest battery (20hours). Which battery mode was used when running battery life test here ?
Hey, check what they ran on battery. We tested performance tasks on battery. My buddies over there probably tested something like movie playback
Hi, love your videos. Two things I’ve noticed though. First one is the battery graphs show remaining battery instead of consumed battery, which, despite being better for visualization, don’t linearize well for comparison (For example, a computer with 30% remaining battery didn’t spend double the energy as one with 60% remaining, despite one value being double of the other, which affects comparison).
Another thing I’ve noticed is you don’t show processor efficiency while doing lightweight tasks such as media consumption or browsing, which, for most people, is what 90% of their time using the computer’s going to look like. I’d say efficiency while doing lightweight tasks is WAY more important than at full load, so it would be nice to have those numbers.
The Arc GPU is a great upgrade, and I am curious what other software (especially creative photo/music/video) takes advantage of the A.I features. I knew the battery life and stuff wouldn't be too much an improvement, but I think it's impressive given that Intel 4 is still on a 7nm node (I believe). For that, it's actually quite impressive.
On the desktop Intel is definitely still leading the X86 market, mostly because they can blast power efficiency out the window for raw performance lol. On laptop, I'm looking forward to them continuing to catch up in manufacturing process, but as a creative person I think the neural chip will actually be used a lot by the likes of Adobe, Black Magic, Affinity etc.
I don't know why people keep saying Intel 4 node is actually 7nm while they are ok with other manufacturers like TSMC or Samsung to use 4nm naming for the same level of performance.
The moment FinFET became a thing "nm" stopped meaning anything. intel 7nm = tsmc, samsung 4nm which is why they rebranded to intel 4.
@@lightninghell4 that's what I'm saying. but people still keep saying.
"yeah~ TSMC 4nm, Samsung 4nm~"
"nonono! Intel 4 is actually 7nm!" even they are same level.
Lolol, that's a ridiculous take. Arc is good on Timespy not games which is the mainstay consumer market.
The AI unit only matches Phoenix, the Hawk Point one has a large boost over it.
As for Quicksync benefitting creative, that's there in Raptor, so you're being asked to buy an expensive multi-tile chip that's not delivering on Intel 7 -> 4 expected process improvements.
This new arch, turns out not to be desktop worthy, missed its iGPU performance target and on CPU matches 2023 range, not the coming 2024 processor launches.
@@RobBCactivethis iGPU also good in games, read any other article/review and it's basically on par with 780M
We need videos of DJ Josh.
Hopefully next year we can do one :)
Yes. Please. I want to see after hours Josh. :)
@Josh, great analsysis and you actually considered a lot of factors in a scientific way and combined them to provide a better understanding. Just a complain, the comparison between Radeon 780M (in Pavilion Plus 14) and the Arc igPU in ZenBook 14, I think is a bit unfair. Pavilion Plus is pretty conservative in Power curve and only provides around 25W sustained and 28W Max whereas as per your review, ZenBook was pulling over 50W for shorter time and then keeping it over 30W during long run. Can you please do a comparison, restricting both at same Wattage, may be using the Legion Slim 7 and limiting both to 30W?
I just noticed the in Josh's geekbench multicore the legion's 7840HS performed worse than the 7840u in the pavilion. Is that a typo or is the legion messed up?
it was a bios bug. now it's normal.
in terms of naming i think no one can beat SONY, yes i'm looking at the 1000xm4 and the xperia 1 ii 😅
Adding to that, there are two 1000xm4's, and they are two completely different products! one is a headphone the other are earphones... like seriously?
When I look at my Bluetooth settings and see the Sony device names I get nauseous. 🤢
The absolute worst naming has to be from monitor manufacturers... Like what the hell is a 27GP850-B or a G274QPF-QD or a 24G2SPAE/BK
I hoped for more from Meteor Lake, but still, this seems like a decent upgrade from Intel which hopefully sets the foundation for future improvements.
I do wish that RUclips contributors would stop with the constant MacBook comparisons. The MacBook Pro 14 (M3 Pro 11C) is $2599 if upgraded with comparable RAM and storage. The MacBook Pro 16 (M3 Max 16C) is $3999. Should they really be compared to $1299 (Zenbook 14) and $1449 (Prestige 16) laptops? Beyond that point, many users must have x86-64 compatibility (drivers for devices, etc.), or must have Windows and would find running Windows on Arm as their primary OS via virtualization on a Mac to be an unnecessary inconvenience.
Yes I understand that Shane. Thats why we included alot of PC laptop comparisons for you as well. I feel its important to be comprehensive here. Please also note that by showing you the MacBook Pro M3 Pro, which btw is Apple's mid range processor similar to the Meteor Lake H series, it allows you to see part of the reasons why MacBooks are so much more expensive. Then you can decide if its worth it to you to spend more
@@JustJoshTech Thanks for the explanation! Perhaps in these situations you could link to a disclaimer video with the "Apple tax and technical reasons why macOS and/or Apple Silicon may not be suitable for your use cases" information. I'm a computer nerd and programmer myself, so I don't really need this information, but I worry that a less tech-savvy shopper might watch your videos and decide to go all out on a MacBook Pro 16 only to find that it is completely unsuitable for their use cases.
Anyway, thanks for the quality content on your channel!
I've seen tests for M3 chips reaching 108 Celsius under load, comparable to the chips you tested. No wonder you forgot to include them alongside Core Ultra in the test. I can agree it's not revolutionary, but still an impressive upgrade over last generation of Intel chips.
Even though your comment was said rather rudly. It's a valid point. I will run that test for future comparisons
@@JustJoshTechI didn't mean to be rude. Sorry for that. I also think you should include GPU performance on M3 into the chart. Otherwise the test is skewed Apple way. Don't get me wrong here - I believe from pure daily driver performance M3 is the best chip out there right now. Still as a casual gamer I would consider it twice, despite recent improvements in Mac gaming.
AMD: Makes confusing and misleading naming scheme
Intel: WRITE THAT DOWN!
@Just Josh, those graphics results are a tad suspect. Do you know what ram MSI and Asus supplied with those laptops and what speed were the modules clocked to?
2:27 : I don't know why, I feel like the rebrand isn't as confuse as I think. Well... maybe I'm too smart or already well adapted, I don't know. I only watching or seeing that repeatedly, I feel familiar
What an excellent video! I learned all I needed to keep up with Intel's latest without any confusion or waste of time. Thank you!!
Cant wait to see how proud userbenchmark is of these processors.
The fact that you get to the point is why i love this channel . My best wishes for you sir
Thank you
5:25 I am a fan of computer tech since the amiga 500 and I never ever heard anyone saying he wants his device be better/ more performant for AI. But till the apple m-series I never heard anyone not complaining about battery
There's at least one change to the P-core architecture compared to Raptor Lake if Wikipedia is accurate -- they doubled the L1 cache per core to 64KB. L2 cache remains the same, except that apparently each cluster of four E-cores now only gets 2MB, not 4MB. Very odd if true.
According to some Intel slides, the E-cores have improved branch prediction and IPC. They also claim the P and E cores give "improved feedback" to Intel Thread Director. I don't have an Intel PC with P and E cores, so haven't run into any situations where tasks are running on the wrong type of core. But I know others have, so hopefully there's some noticeable improvement here. Though part of the problem seems to be Windows not really explaining to users what different performance profiles mean.
completely agree with you. If big business would swallow their pride and clean out their ears and actually start listening to the little people......
I would love to ditch Apple and go back to Linux/Windows dual booting. But until they get onboard with ARM, I don't see any world where AMD or Intel can compete with the power efficiency of Apple. They really need to make a drastic unforseen change to really even compete.
Right now you basically have to have a solid reason why you can't use MacOS to even consider Intel/AMD. (Price definitely counts as one.)
And AMD is firmly ahead of Intel as well. So the tree now is basically:
Is there a really good reason MacOS doesn't work for me?
No -> Buy Mac
Yes -> Buy AMD
But I want the highest end gaming laptop and manufacturers keep putting Intel in those for some damn reason:
Sigh, fiiiiine. I guess I'll get Intel and deal with the heat, noise and crappy battery life.
AMD-U series can easily compete with M2 chips. M3 is ahead in some metrics but I expect that to once again change with Zen 5, so I would say they are neck a neck. AMD just needs to force laptop makers to lower the power limits...
@@VideogamesAsArt In performance they are competitive for sure. It's just the amount of power they need to do it. They claim those numbers at 15 watt TDP, but it's not strictly accurate. This is borne out by simply comparing the battery life and heat generation. MacBooks get ridiculously good performance without even a fan because even under intensive load they sip power.
It's why cloud providers are building ARM chips left and right too, the power efficiency advantages are massive and at scale that's incredibly obvious.
And as you go up in performance against the Apple Pro and Max chips, likewise that power efficiency becomes again increasingly obvious.
I have two MacBook Pros, (one given by my work) I frequently run multiple VMs, machine learning workloads, docker, etc all at once. Just hammer those processors.
Ask me what the fans sound like though, and I honestly couldn't tell you.
@@17arando I think you have been paying little attention to some (sadly) not very mainstream AMD chips. Bergamo wipes the floor with any ARM datacenter chips (check Level 1 techs or ServeTheHome for that) and Josh's own video about the Framework 13 with AMD Ryzen 7040 shows how efficient they are if power limited. I myself bought a Framework with Ryzen 5 7640U for my partner and I have heard the fans twice in 2 weeks, and I had to get my ear close to the laptop.
BTW, I am NOT claiming they are MORE efficient than Apple. I just think they are neck a neck, at least from all the data I have seen. M3 might beat AMD in more than half the occasions, but it is a newer chip and AMD's next gen will definitely come sooner than M4, so... trading blows once again.
We need to hope AMD starts working better with manufactures, and more often as well. At present, a big reason flagships usually have Intel is because Intel works more closely with manufacturers to do this. This just seems like a company choice AMD hasn't been pursuing much, given how things turn out similarly on the desktop side with game drivers, prebuilts, and more. We know AMD can do a lot with the Zephyrus G14 for example, but they need to keep working with manufactures if they want to take a bite out of the market in a significant way
@@trademarktmel Yeah, I think AMD not being in the high end windows laptops is honestly hurting their sales. I really did want to consider switching, I just replaced my personal MacBook yesterday, but all the machines that could have tempted me away were all stuck with Intel CPUs and as someone who works remotely and travels a lot, it just wasn't tenable.
Of course AMD still doesn't perform nearly as well on battery power, so I don't know if I ultimately would have pulled the trigger, but at least it would have been a serious consideration.
Ultimately though, at some point if Intel and AMD aren't going to switch to ARM, they need to invent something comparable. It's time for a real change.
"None of my viewers have ever asked for a laptop for better AI"......... I have, multiple times. How rude of you to try speak on us (your viewers) behalf.
Was the fan noise measured on performance mode? If it’s on that mode I would want it working as hard as possible to cool it so I wouldn’t mind the noise on that mode
2024 is a computing fun. But I'm more excited for Qualcomm Snapdragon X elite laptops than AMD/Intel's - underdog contender.
Great points about power usage!!! intel should have shown meteor lake running silently. That would have been better then trying to push it ftw
Cannot wait until Josh gets hold of Snapdragon X elite is going to eat ML for breakfast
Be aware intel’s existing ARC GPU’s perform better in 3D mark than they do in most games.
Noted
When Intel brought in Pat, I thought maybe they'd actually change for real. Based on what they've released, the culture is still the same. The latest marketing BS about "core truth" tells me the sick parts of intel is still cancerous.
“AI” is the new 3D.
Could you do another evaluation? There have been a lot of updates since the launch of the Core Ultra. I suppose that many updates were significant since the Ultra is a first-gen product, and I'm interested in knowing the impact.
If I get time. I would watch my Yoga Pro 9i review. It has a bit of an update in it
@@JustJoshTech Thank you. I will check that review.
Comparing 7730u with 155h and saying "worse battery life" is ridiculous. Totally different tiers of processors. Half of your testing is totally skewed. However I agree that intel is still no good.
Jeez. I hadnt realized how powerful Applw silicone is until i saw these graphs. No wonder people are freaking out over them.
Hi Josh nice video.
I have a question:
is legion slim 7 8gen (AMD) a good laptop for computer science ?
if not any suggestions. Thanks
Yesssss
Un maquinón!
Buying a Windows laptop in 2023 is reminiscent of buying a mobile phone contract in the 1990s. It feels like a job that should pay money.
Cool if you re not a pro looking for toys to impress friends.
Meteor Lake P cores are essentially the same IP as Raptor Lake. None of your tests would show off the benefits of the LPe cores, all you did was run the laptops at full load which is not where the power improvements on this chip are suppose to occur.
They may improve with time as W11 optimises and apps are updated.
Agree, "battery test" but run it full load. I rather watch other reviewers like jarrod or dave2d with a more realistic load
Hold Ur horses it's the very first iteration
For the battery, wouldnt it make sense to test it for normal usage scenario rather than a fully loaded test ?
Put this baby into a thinkpad X1E, high refresh, touchscreen, miniled, no dgpu, and youll have yourself the best M1 mac competitor
The move at the beginning is worth a subscription in my book
Btw Arc has been known to be much better at Timespy than it is at gaming.
Should I wait for the meteor lake or just get the 13th gen laptop, I don't think this new gen is worth it
im faced with the same problem lol, its probably going to be way more expensive than the 13th gens currently by the time it releases locally
get Zen 4 laptop
Meteor Lake unless you get a sweet deal on 13th gen
Amd series better
@@spooder_You should buy a 13th gen laptop with a dedicated GPU. It would be less expensive than the MTL laptop.
I dont think comparing the H series CPU to other U series cpu isnt the full picture. Could you also include the ultra 7 155U?
Jesus christ. I hope Intel is not bringing this naming mess to Desktop CPUs too. Thanks
they will, with next generation
I think it looks great. Almost a best of all worlds at least in Windows world. Best IGP in Windows, lower substrate idle power than AMD, almost the same single core performance as Intel last gen but at much better efficiency, better multicore and efficiency, the LP-E cores for idle parking, and this is before the new AI features. Not matching Apple performance per watt yet, but that's what Royal Core is for.
I think it will truly be a best of all world in Linux world. Windows is just so messed up nowadays, a complete mess, full of bloatware, spyware and a constantly lagging outdated scheduler. Intel wouldn't have had to create Thread Director for Linux. Neither AMD have the normal chiplet + 3Dcache chiplet problems.
I honestly don't know what's going on with their marketing and management team. Instead of confusing the naming of the lineup and using 13th Gen still, they should've:
1) Made the entire lineup 14th Gen architecture wise
2) Branded the U series as the Intel "Core" series, and the H series as Intel "Core Ultra", simplifying the lineup immensely
3) Should've released the H series later on in January to let it improve even more, basically opposite of what they did
I want Intel to really bring the fight to Apple since AMD powered laptops are unfortunately not as easily available for most
I liked the raw power of Intel CPUs on a desktop.
For laptops, AMD and Apple's M series CPUs are better in most cases. AMD's single core is worse for simple tasks, but it provides better multi-core and battery life performance.
This is true, although I have Intel in desktop CPU, I must admit it is utter crap in compare to M1.
@tomaszcodasz How? The only advantage of the M series CPUs are battery life. With a desktop, that advantage no longer exists.
One can argue the operating system, but that isn't the CPU issue.
@@akin242002 Actually it is much faster for my development work, I've stopped used Intel completely. It is blazing fast for javascript, so all heavy SPA pages. I have M1 and it is faster than 11th Intel desktop processor, runs without fan and I have great local dev environment with vscode + brew. I wouldn't take any job if someone force me to work on Intel crap.
The thing is that porting the P-core aquitecture to a new process node, that is Intel 4, we should expect increased performance, at least from increased clock speeds. That it didn’t happens, is sign that Intel 4 is botched (not surprised).
I was surprised
Very small differences between generations from Intel Apple and amd. Everyone's just making space on the chip for ai processors. Same cores same igpu etc.
The big change should cone with gen 15, this is little more than a refresh. Intel need to rethink their lack of interest in ARM based chips though, I don't think they'll be as niche as they think they'll be.
There's a rumor that NVIDIA will be entering the consumer CPU space with their own ARM-based chips. I'm definitely more interested in that than I am in anything Intel or AMD has on the market right now.
It requires a huge investment from windows (Microsoft) as much as Intel which is exactly why we haven’t seen anyone besides apple trying go all in.
I worry that Intel wants us to think that the next one is that will truly be the one. Before 13th gen Raptor Lake came out, Pat said 'Raptor Lake will for once and for all leave AMD in the rear mirror' LOL
@@sentryion3106MSFT asked AMD, Qualcomm, & Nvidia for tomorrow TOPs NPU in their laptop APUs for Windows 11 & 12. MSFT didn’t even bother with Intel.
NVIDIA, Qualcomm and AMD all have ARM CPUs coming specifically for Windows 12.@@saturnotaku
Intel and Samsung are same kinds of companies who only focus on price increments without products quality, performance & battery life
The Zenbook should have been compared to the Air, which is closer in price. A M3 Pro or Max is not a fair comparison. The person in the market for the Zenbook in this video will not cross shop a MacBook Pro. They might cross shop an Air though. The price difference is too great. It really isn't fair to compare a $1,300 laptop vs twice as expensive or more MacBook Pro (price will depend on the type of Pro or Max chip used)?
We will conpare with both in our full review of it. This was more about the H series meteor lake chip. The U series would be a competitor to the Air.
AMD: "we have the most complicated name for our processors"
Intel: "hold my Meteor Lake"
😂😂😂
Both are trying their hardest to use the most complicated naming scheme known to mankind
Thinking of getting this one for my wifey, with 155H/32GB/1TB, 2.8K OLED being the key here as she is into photography and some video editing. Myself I got the EliteBook 835 G10 7840U/32GB/2TB Samsung 990 Pro with FHD which is sufficient for me, but business class matters more, running Opensuse Tumbleweed (linux).
Congratulations you successfully compared two totally different cpus in the same chart, it's obvious they perform differently
How is it possible to make this so confusing for a huge company. Literally 1 well informed computer YT creator like yourself or others could come up with a much better naming system on a peace of paper in under an hour that would convey what is needed while also informing the consumer so they know what they are getting. I would think this is almost purposefully done but I dont see how it could help them. Its not going to lead to more sales so WTF is wrong with these executives. Perhaps its time to clear the field (Get rid of old intel staff) as well as bring in NON_TECKi staff to explain to nerds why these naming conventions are absurd to normal people in society.
If you only had a crystal ball to see a few months into the future.
If only!
So, for the ultrabook chips, the CPU is a nominal increase in performance, but hopefully improved efficiency for increased battery life (TBC).
The new ARC GPU significantly improves the ancient 13-Gen, but it only catches up on 3-4 years of woeful iGPU performance. My best take is better late than never.
AI marketing is the strategy to sell when the rest is underwhelming, and only time will tell if that adds up to more than background blur on your webcam.
This closes the gap on the M3 chips, but they remain chasing Apple's shadow on this gen, at least as far as the ultrabook chips are concerned.
Why you compare mtl vs m3 pro and max and not M3 ? Max and pro are comparable to HX intel and not MTL
Thats not true. Sorry. The Meteor Lake processor we have is a replacement to the 13700H. That is around M3 Pro. M3 base is more of a U series competitor as its Apple's lowest model.
Thanks. Josh. Simplify product stack = Customer is not confused = Profits lost. No going to happen soon with intel. Apple is selling end product laptop = different circumstances
From the gaming comparisons I've seen despite doing much better in timespy, the 780m either performs better or is inky slightly behind. I'd assume it does handily win in productivity since Intel has a track record of being great, in that category.
It's a higt time Intel spent more time improving its GPU. In my company, I had to buy 40+ portable models and decided to go with AMD version. Our software did not work with Intel GPU (!), was too laggy and throttling caused our apps to display motion...sometimes slower, sometimes faster, depending on how much power was assigned to GPU/CPU. In AMD version - we never had similar issues.
Can NPU be used to discover if computer is being hacked? or be used to help a student solve math homework?
It's pretty telling when the 7840u, is beating the latest "Ultra" chip by quite a large margin in performance per watt.. Meteor Lake isn't realistically Phoenix's competition. It's going to be competing with Hawk Point, soon to be shipping. A bit worrying.
The Intel Ultra 7 165H outperforms the Ryzen 7 7840u according to Geekbench 6 test scores. The Intel Ultra 7 165U underperforms the Ryzen 7 7840U, especially on the multi-core scores. 9511 vs 11509.
The ARC GPU doesn't have the GPU power of the Radeon 780M (6 vs 8 TFLOPS). Thus, gaming and video/photo editing should be done on an AMD CPU if the laptops doesn't include a Nvidia dedicated GPU.
@@akin242002But this video states Intel ARC Meteor Lake is faster than a 780
@dbod4866 Well they got it confused or flat out wrong. Radeon 780M > Any iGPU from Intel.
Intel's external GPUs are better, but for the price, might as well get an older Nvidia 3000s series GPU.
@@akin242002yes in this video it shows the ARC almost twice as fast as 780.
Pretty pathetic testing... only cinebench, geekbench and timespy... no games, no production software.
Let me share some insight on what happened so you understand. When we got the laptops, many tests did not run at all. Then we had to travel for another event to cover for you guys. So we had limited time. But we will be adding a real world game benchmark as well as some creative tasks in future. Please understand more goes on than us getting a laptop and being lazy with it
@@JustJoshTech If the tests didn't run isn't that worth stating in the video? There's no garuntee its just because of early drivers, if software needs to be updated to support Meteorlake and there's going to be compatibility issues.. im sure people would like to know.
I'm disappointed. CPU performance is more or less the same as the 13th gen. Efficiency improvement is not that much. As you can see in the video it still lags behind AMD U series and not to mention macs. GPU performance is a good upgrade. No idea about NPU and how useful it will be in windows. I expected Intel to become competitive with Apple but alas. It will most likely have slightly improved battery life and temperature but other than that nothing much except good igpu performance.
which one i must choose between.. MacBook Pro 14 m3 16 GB 512ssd or MacBook Pro 16 m1 max 32gb 1to ????
Go for the 16 M1 Max. It's basically just as fast, has a way bigger screen (can't go wrong), has more memory and more storage.
Great video, thanks for attempting to explain the naming convention!!
Never had any issues with the previous naming convention
Any info on intel 15th Gen for Desktops?
Ah, i don't and if any reviewer does it would be under embargo
Would you recommend this new zenbook 14 with meteor lake for photo editing?
For a civil engineer, what laptop do you recommend? I look for a long battery life and it does not need to be connected to use its potential. I would like a MacBook but many programs are not compatible with IOS. please help
AMD ThinkPad z13 and z16 are pretty good for this particular use case. The highee core count and efficiency works well with heavily threaded workloads.
Good Video, very in depth, thanks. I don't think you stated anywhere that these chips are made by TSMC for Intel?
1:05 lol where are you looking at in this frame
I didn't see the M3 between Graphics score?!
Yes yes, but the question i have is what genres did you DJ at Arc?
Trance
Abysmal integrated graphics have been a thing with Intel processors since time immemorial so it's really nice to see them taking a major step forward in this area.
utterly meaningless performance way below rtx 3050 which is as weak as it gets for dedicated gpus
@@NeverSettleForMediocrity Its integrated graphics, so of course it will be lower
You should wait for AMD’s Strix Point halo with 12 cores, 40 CU RDNA4, & 50 TOPs NPU coming out in summer 2024.
Intel beating Amd.
Meanwhile Amd fanboy : Lets pretend we don't see it, let's keep coping while also downplay it.
Amd fanboy is still happier to see grandma Lisa milking them with the same cpu and gpu like Strix point aka Amd 8000 series 🤣
An excellent presentation on the new Meteor Lake chips. I would buy a Meteor Lake laptop with exceptional battery life in a heartbeat. I use Windows devices for business purposes and do not understand why Intel cannot make chips which rival Apple Silicon.
As a feedback, you should test actual games to conclude the performance of the new iGPU. Running 3D Mark is a poor representation of actual performance.
I agree. We were a little short of time due to a trip we had to do. Not trying to excuse it. We will improve in the future
the balance mode some time out perform the performance mode.
thanks for the upfront summary!! gonna keep your channel in mind for future. (i rarely every comment also)
this video convinced me not to buy a new laptop for next 3 years.
Agree, I don’t have one and need one and I’m not looking forward to wasting my money
Surprising you didn't mention battery life
I did. It's in there
I feel touched when I saw that real human brain.
Is this new zenbook 14 worth getting over the old one?
no
I wish we had a socketed desktop part, since the chassis and firmware of these laptops is making it so hard to tell if the chip can be good or if the laptop complete package is messing with things. And hopefully some firmware/driver/software updates will sort out some of the weirder or inconsistent results some reviewers are seeing.
I would love to see intel be more competitive, I'm not totally sure this does that, but they've put all their chips into this disaggregated design, so honestly I feel like we have to wait until Arrow Lake, or maybe some mini-PC desktops of Meteor Lake to see how far this disaggregated design scheme can go. I don't really trust Windows laptop makers to make strong firmware, or adequate cooling with sensible fan curves, which is sad. So I wait to see it in a desktop form factor of some kind before truly passing judgment on the whole Foveros thing.
This release could have been more amazing, but the most charitable thing I can say is they've invested in architecture this time around, setting up for the next one to be more impressive, whereas this one had too much change to also manage a crazy performance win vs AMD/Apple. Less charitable is to say they had to reinvent their whole tech stack just to keep up/tread water near where AMD/Apple are... I'm glad to see them take a slow/measured approach if it sets them up for success in the future, but "the future" can't always be years away. I do hope there is some dividends paid for all this when Arrow Lake and beyond come out.
Also, if they refresh Alder Lake/Raptor Lake an additional time, I think I'm going to cry. Please, Intel stop refreshing that gen beyond this point! No more! I know it's silly, but with how much they're promising to "revolutionize" all their stuff, seeing them put out kind of the same thing three times between then and now before finally launching Meteor Lake is a bit maddening.
Intel's chip nomenclature is confusing, and so its performance. Thank you breaking it down for us in a more understandable way.
So do AMD's