I had a twin keel sailboat and it had many advantages over a single keel. It would sail closer into the wind besides if you ever ran it up on the beach or aground you didn't have any damage or at best minimal and only to the keels which were solid lead and fiber glassed on mine. Mine had a rudder on each keel that one would disengaged when heeled over leaving only the one on the low side working while the other one to a neutral in line position. Trust me if you had one you would own nothing else because you could run her up on the beach at the changing of the tide, clean the hull and when it came back in float it off. They can save you lots of money when it comes to boat maintenance. even if it may slow you down a half a knot compared to a single keel.
Jeremy from HSA1 here. Modern bilge keels like mine a h356, can point upwards of 10 degrees higher. And (as the video points out) counter the effects of a reach therefore run flatter and faster. Very similar to counter weight. Yes the old old bilge keels were slugs, but modern way out runs their counterpart fin keels.
My dream boat would have a bilge keel. I live in the PNW and we can get 14' plus tidal swings. In Puget Sound, there are LOTS of tidal flats that you can "anchor" at.
I've gone from long keel to bilge keels. Not quite as sea kindly, bit stunning sailing ability and being able to dry out anywhere is just amazing. I'm glad I did it, I can see the advantages of both 👍
My yacht was designed by a yacht designer. It has a full length keel and two fins. The main reason was tidal changes and ability to sail in shallower areas, It has all the weight on the centre keel when on the hard, and the outside keels are for stability. The full keel was chosen for blue water performance and protection of the rudder.
My introduction to bilge keels came in the late 70's when I stayed on a tiny sailboat named 'Hilarious', which was on the hard in the Dixon-Kearley Boatyard in Maldon, Essex, UK. I'd volunteered to help work on my friend's boat in the same yard, and the bilge keel boat was our accommodation for our stay. I immediately appreciated that it made the boat liveable on the hard, or on the beach, without stands. It wasn't until several years later that I found out that this wasn't the only reason for having bilge keels! I still think they're great!
I have been very jealous of bilge keel boats every time the tide would go out and leave us somewhere dry! They really are incredible boats with an added benefit!
I used to own a 20' Hurley that truly had bilge keels. Each had a deep bilge except for a portion that was lead ballast. That boat was relatively slow, but forgiving and great for learning to sail. It would heave to with no difficulty and stay put. The only problem with standing it up on the keels was that it wasn't very far off the ground. It is much easier to work on the bottom when it's up in the air on stands.
That is true. Having space to get your tools in there is a game changer! When we plan to work on the bottom of the keel, I always put extra tall blocks under the keel to give me more room. I can’t imagine how cumbersome it must be to try and work on a bottom when the keels are partway into the mud bottom.
As a 'twin keel' fan I like the merits you point out. However, technically the center of mass for the two keels combined is right in the middle so you don't gain righting moments over a normal single keel. Another bonus, is the flywheel effect of having the mass of the two keels so far apart, is supposed to dampen rolling. Because when heeled one keel becomes more effective than a single keel, I've read that the profile area can be in some cases, 70% of a single keel so combined and if the windward keel does not leave the water, you have a more wetted area, not good in the light, as mentioned.
Righting moment is a function of the horizontal difference between the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. Once the hull is heeling the weight of the leeward keel is under the center of buoyancy and has no righting moment. Like the vessel when on an "even keel". Therefore the windward keel is the only one exerting righting moment and that moment is the horizontal difference between the windward keel and the center of buoyancy.
@@PaulHarris-sl1ct you can't have it both ways. You're correct, RM is CB over CM but the CM doesn't change it's relative position just because the yacht is healed. In effect yes, the keel becoming vertical does less than a single keel but the keel becoming horizontal, does more than a single keel so in effect, twin keels CM, if it's the same position as the single keel, there definitely will not be more RM. If you don't get that, go ask your physics teacher or a naval architect. I design yachts so I do know a little about this stuff, what's your qualification?
Don't think you fully explained why they're worse for racing. The lateral resistance of a single long fin is much more effective than two shorter ones (the hydrodynamics of why is difficult to explain), which means the boat makes less leeway and more force is transferred forwards. Yet I'm still a fan of bilge keelers for where I live. A fin keeler might win in a deep water race, but if you're trying to get from one harbour to another in a shallow tidal area the bilge keeler would get there first because it can set off an hour earlier thanks to its shorter draft 😄
There's also the hydrodynamics of a canted fin keel to take into account. One of the bilge keels will be pointing directly downwards when heeling, this will reduce leeway compared to the canted over fin keel.
They are worse for racing because of a couple of reasons. They need to have a larger area than half a single keel so that's extra wetted area drag. That's why center board cats sail better to windward than a fixed low profile centerboard and the other reason is large aspect foils have more lift than low aspect foils, the reason glider wings are long and thin, for example.
@@KarlFullerNZ The wetted area makes a bit of difference but not very much (unless heavily fouled), it's usually offset by a bilge keel's better hydrodynamic profile. Horizontal water flow will flow around something short height long length much easier than something tall height short length. Which is why bilge keels can often compete with fins downwind but not upwind. Agree with your 2nd point, that's just another way of wording what I was saying. Very difficult to summarise it in a short comment.
Thanks. I was always wondering if bilge keels were as safe, now I know. Those Sirius yachts when Publishers Clearing House shows up, are looking really nice.
I have a 34 foot bilge keel.She does not point so high as fin keel and it is slower in light winds. Anything over 30-35 degrees forgeret…. On other hand, much more confortable with higher winds (over 10 knots to get her start…), as she does not lean so much and much more stable with wind from the back or when surfing waves…Great vídeos!Stay safe and fair winds!Cheers
If you want to see a bilge keeler that goes well in light winds, see Mingming 2. Her rig was specially designed for light weather. ruclips.net/channel/UCqbPTJgSLaMhf0BkdG6t72A
I think its important to point out not all bilge keel boats are created equal. So sweeping statements of bilge keels boats dont point etc is not always true . I know alot of fin keel boats that dont point to well either ! Older bilge keel boats and shorter ( less than 30 ft ) are good for harbours and rivers , there are many good ocean versions. .The main differences I have found vs fin keel .Slower - and more leeway on high up wind angles .the forward pivot point is allot further forward , sailing on to moorings or MOB undersail needs some head sail out. .Bilge keel heave to beautifully - modern fin keels suck at this ! .Bilge keel boats can slap hard when going to wind .Inverted stability , I can ' t say as I have not been rolled in a bilge keel . but in theory after avs is reached and she flips the stability upside down would be much higher than a fin keel . I need to do some scale testing unless someone has data on that ? I think you need to consider what sort of sailing you want to do and where you want to go. I am a big fan of bilge keel boats so versatile in tidal waters. It makes exploring very exciting . This makes up for the lack of efficacy , lifting keel boats you still have to be careful what you put them down on . Price is a big factor vs good lifting keel boats . Yes I would take them on ocean passages . Pay your money and take your choice
.Inverted stability , I can ' t say as I have not been rolled in a bilge keel . but in theory after avs is reached and she flips the stability upside down would be much higher than a fin keel . I need to do some scale testing unless someone has data on that ? Did you find some data on this? I´ve been thinking the same thing.. And i have not choosen weather to go with Bilge or not... And this is an importent factor..
The centre of mass for the bilge keel is along the centre of the boat, the same as for a fin keel. The slight angle, and higher positioning on the hull will both make the bilge keel centre of mass higher than an equivalent mass fin keel, making it less effective in righting the boat.
Strictly speaking, the term bilge keel originally referred to the original design of double keel, where two keels drop vertically from the hull. Later on, this design was refined, so that the keels are splayed out from the hull at an angle. This was found to be much more efficient in the water and also a more stable platform out of the water. This configuration is sometimes referred to as twin keel, at least in England. Having said all that, people tend to be lazy nowadays and often use bilge keel for everything.
That’s a great bit of information! I have come to learn that in England they have a distinction between full keel and long keel, while in the states they are lazy and everything that is “not” a fin keel is a full keel.
I'm sure it's the case that modern, well designed bilge keel boats have good upwind performance. But beware older bilge keelers. Upwind performance is way down on that of fin keel boats of otherwise similar design.
A design I'm working on has bilge keels. It has a cylindrically developed "'V" bottom, so the bilge keels can attach at right angles to the two sides of the "V". Since these two keels are long, they don' t increase the draft at all.
@@andrewyork3869 Sadly, I don't know for a fact, as the boat was never built. It probably wouldn't roll much mainly because it would never be sailed dead down wind. It also wouldn't be too hot going up wind, so it's upwind sailing would be more like glorified close reaches. Because the amount of side to side motion of the bilge keels would be greater per roll, I suspect they would provide better roll dampening than a single keel of the same proportions.
@@DaveWatts_ejectamenta Dave, you are about half right. A round bottom has the least surface area per section. An ideal round bottom would be a perfect half circle, which would be half as deep as it is wide at the WL. Look in any marina dry storage, and you will almost never find one. Such a boat would have a massive displacement. This kind of section would work great on a mulihul. This is because the hulls are so narrow. Most monohul sailboats have either "V" or flat bottom sections with rounded corners at the top. This is because skin friction matters most at speed/length ratios (square root of wl in feet in knots) of 1.0 or less. There are other considerations as well. Initial stability is one of them. A half circle section (from sheer to sheer) does not offer a lot of initial stability (required to stand up to the sail area). We do see a few of those around, and with enough ballast, stand up to their sail area well enough. But the major problem of a boat is to get water around it while making as small waves as possible. This is governed mostly by the waterlines. A 'V" bottom boat has wider waterlines at the top of its underwater sections, but much narrower ones near the bottom . This is the reason we see a great number of heavy displacement sailboats with deep "V" like sections. A deep "V" section has the most draft per volume. This allows the ballast to be placed lower where it is most effective for its weight, without adding all that much surface area. The most ruinous adder of whetted surface are the twin keels. This is why we never see them on racing sailboats. Twin keels offer just two major advantages, and none of them have anything to do with increased performance. These two advantages are: 1.) Ability of the boat to stand up on its bottom, when beached, and 2.) Ability to sail in shallower water. These two advantages are why I chose them for my LOLA design. LOLA was designed to be relatively easy to build and maintain. That and lower building cost and adequate seaworthiness were the primary design considerations. Ease of construction followed those. The floating draft of LOLA would be about 2 ft (for a 5 by 20 ft sailboat). The ballast is meant to assure self-righting only, so it is minimal (about 30% of total displacement or less),and it isn't very deep. So, to get adequate ability to stand up to her sail area, she has a wl beam equal to her maximum beam.
Nice quick video on Bilge Keels. 1) are bilge keels built into the hull like full keels or bolted on types? 2) are they just as strong and safe as full keels on long off shore passages compared to bolt on keels? 3) god forbid you loose one keel on a passage with a bilge keel are you dead in the water or can you continue sailing rest of the way?
1. They come in both forms. 2. Encapsulated keels have no keel bolts. Bolt on versions have the issues with keel bolts. 3. If you drop a keel, the boat will list a bit and be ok on one tack and really heel on the other tack. Not to mention list while at rest.
Sounds plausible, 25' trawler Boojum has them, designed to carry fuel as opposed to a box keel with bilge plates.. They make sense for this purpose, stabilizing and for providing support.. so why aren't they more common!
wisenber awesome to learn that info, thanks & happy sailings! How long have you been sailing for. Did you start out with a day sailor like a Catalina 22’ boat to learn or a Hobbie Cat?
@@Mikinct I started out paddling a kayak for a few years. Then I decided to add a sail to my kayak for a few years. Then I built a small trimaran a few years ago. Still less than six years of sailing, but building the boat really helped understand more of how they work. I found small boats really help simplify the process of learning to sail. The complexity of a split rig and all of the hardware is a pretty big distraction from learning the basics. My next boat is still in the planning phases. I'm looking to build a 13 meter trimaran that is capable of crossing oceans but still able to be trailered. That one will be more carbon fiber and less marine ply. Should be quite a bot faster too. Thanks for your interest.
Other advantages over say, a lifting keel, is the keel and rudder feet are the only contact points to scratch up while the tide changes and boat shifts. Also, perhaps a safer feeling being raised up when dry... makes it tougher for troublemakers to board. Electrified hull, sheezam
The importance of keeling is the relationship of the lateral resistance ahead of the sail effort. It is important that the location of keel is ahead of the sails. Keeling is relative the size and location of the sails. Does the boat have a good keel line. Is she seaworthy stem to stern . Lwr least wind resistant keeling Hull keeling or blade keeling .
This was an academic perspective of keeling not the conventional opinion of keeling. What people do is not what they should do. Common keeling is off keel.
I know this video is old but I just saw it for the first time. However I do have a question. what would be the down said of having three keels with the third one being adjustable? Just wondering if there would be benefits! Thanks in advance to anyone giving the answer or their thoughts 😃!
If they are all the same length, it wouldn’t be able to stand on the keels level, so it would have to be an adjustable center board. Being a board, it could be really long which would give wonderful performance when going upwind while still being retracted when going downwind. The only downside would be the complexity of the board where most of these boats are built for simplicity. They need a keel so they get one, then they need to stand up at low tide so they get a second leg. The designer then looks at it and says “that’s enough to get the job done” and moves onto some other part of the boat. If you find one with that, I would not shy away from it as it would be the best from all worlds!
@@RiggingDoctor thank you Herb, this makes me feel good coming from someone of your level of experience. However, I've never seen one with three keels but it is something I'd like to build one day. I've studied a few years to create my perfect boat. Although I know there's no such thing as a perfect boat but there is a such thing as the perfect boat for me. I've also left a comment on another video about props please check in out as I feel I've given you a great idea. But I trust and respect your thoughts on it. (Potential money saver but your the judge of that) P.S. in my three keels design I planed on making the third keel raise slightly higher than the other two and go lower as well. I just have to determine how low so I could take advantage of low tide and possibly beaching and have a bit of comfort in rough water. Thanks again and cheese to you and your lovely wife.
The closest thing to a three keel boat would be the modern vendee boats. They have the ballasted keel which cants side to side to help with righting moment, a dagger board in front of the keel that acts as the keel, and then port and starboard dagger boards. When sailing, the windward dagger board is raised to reduce drag, and you have from windward to leeward: ballasted keel, Center dagger board, leeward dagger board. It’s a three keel system that definitely can not support the boats weight at low tide 🤣 but it might be an idea generator for how they are placed while in use to avoid interference between the boards.
@@RiggingDoctor cool I'll look it up but I want something solid as a rock because my boat will be a heavy girl and I'm loving the idea of standing upright in low water or on the hard. I thought a third keel would give more stability in rough water if it could drop below the other two keels and raise higher. At least this would not affect my draft in a negative way. And like you said the boat will still stand on the two main keels. I'm just trying to build a safe one of a kind comfortable boat to spend lots of time on and will not have to come to shore if I don't need to. So this is part of what I have to do. You've helped me a lot Herb and big thanks for you for it. Question, is there a reason why I've only seen two keel systems on metal boat's?
@@RiggingDoctor I've looked up vendee boats, it is indeed an interesting design however it won't help me in my design because those keels and dagger boards don't seem to be able to hold the weight of my boat. It's in the design because I feel I need the ballast. And just so you know I'm not going to build a sail boat. So something's I can get away with but not go to crazy. Truth be told I've come up with an electric system in which I could regen under way. Infact, it's the only way I can regen outside of solar. Having said this Herb, I need an efficient hull(sailboat). But not just a good hull it has to able to carry weight. It's a one of a kind so I must be able to carry parts tools etc. So I hope now you can see why I asked so many questions from you (your experience). I have only one shot at this so I have to design this thing right from the start. Thanks for your time Herb not many RUclipsrs will take the time you have to talk to followers. Your #1...
For me it's simple. I can park on the beach! I can live on a drying river mooring that is 10% of the price. I can explore shallows. The slight loss of efficiency is not important. Too many cruising boats copy racing designs and the racing rule, imo. It's not a good compromise. Prioritise what's fun!
I agree! These boats really are excellent cruisers. It’s like if the family minivan was styled after an F1 car. No one will be happy in that situation, so why should your cruising boat be subject to the same mistake.
It’s simple sales tricks. They cost slightly more to make so Boat builders are discouraged. Since fewer are made, people think they are weird and therefore don’t want them. They are very popular in places with extreme tides because there the boats will frequently be left high and dry. Bulge keels makes that a no brainer! Everywhere else, they are the “odd boat”. I think they are very cool 😎
@@RiggingDoctor Do you know if they have any disadvantages or advantages of like a fin or long keel when it comes to bouncing and comfort? I would want to weigh that against the side to side safety. I have been looking at Sirius but also rustler, gozzard, and Island Packets. I would love a twin but keep loving the tracking and comfort of long keels stories, I have have not heard how twins do in the open sea.
@@mikefetterman6782 go look up Rodger Taylor in Ming Ming . Allot of the other jester challenge boats are bilges. It's a single handed Atlantic race . Ming Ming is a 24 it's been every where. In Britain it's the default.
Yousif Jawher as in how tipsy the boat is in a marina or how much it heels while under sail? It’s about the same. You really wouldn’t know that a boat had bilge keels if the water was murky until the tide went out!
Yousif Jawher they function the same as a fin keel would, meaning they point well but when you heave to, they slip laterally through the water since they don’t have the surface area of a long keel. As for sailing in heavy seas, they are very popular around England and that area is notorious for having terrible seas! That should speak to their sea worthiness :)
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you. I've only been sailing once, but recently I've been watching a lot of sailing videos (even though I live in a country with only 26KMs of coastline) and it's gotten me really interested. Any recommendations on where to start with learning about sailing? Do you think an "official course" or license are necessary?
Yousif Jawher if you’re country requires a license, the process of getting your license will teach you a lot, but not everything about sailing. Some countries licenses teach you the laws around boating but forget to teach the boating parts! My two suggestions for learning about sailing are: reading books and going sailing as much as you can with friends. For books: I highly recommend “The Self Sufficient Cruiser” and “Storm Tactics” by Lin & Larry Pardey. All of their books are packed with information but these two are important to start on. The first teaches a lot of sailing tricks while the other teaches you what to do when 💩happens. Knowing what to do in the worst of it means that you will never get caught without knowing how to handle the situation. Another source of information you could read is the blog: www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/tag/Sail+Plans+and+Rigs It covers a wide range of topics and goes quite in depth.
I have a 20ft snapdragon I'm about to learn to sail, my biggest worry is if I do not drop the sails quick enough, would a twin bilge keel capsize before a single keels, to me its stability is the negative?
Upwind performance is generally inferior with twin keels, which is a consequence of the added drag, but also could be a consequence of very bad flow around the windward keel. In my area.
From what I have read about them, you have double the drag of a fin keel, but still less drag than a full keel. Having been dried out by an outgoing tide and leaning all the way over for the next 12 hours, the thought of having little keel legs to keep me upright sounds like a huge plus! No, we don’t plan on being in those situations but if you were to find yourself there, why not make it more delightful?
@@RiggingDoctor here in Cornwall some people who can't afford a large bilgy buy a full keel and fit dry out legs . Under 30ft they are cheap but over 30 they get pricy. Cheapest bilge over 30 is a Westerly Berwick at about 15k . But we all want a moody they are 50k
A bilge ballast with Leeboards at the proper angle solves the wetted area increase which plaque the twin bilge keel design. How much degradation of speed havimg two keels? I'm guessing not that much. 10%? If that. So how come not many leeboards ocean going blue water boats are not made. The Dutch sure did.
That tends to come more from the hull shape and displacement to length ratio than the number of keels. The big advantage they offer is the ability to stand upright when the tide goes out.
Tristen Jones sailed a tiny bilge keel all over the world even to the high lake navigable. Lake Titicaca. So bilge keels and leeboards just have a bad rap from pure prejudice. They are just funny looking and there lies the rub.
Not true. Modern bilge keels like mine a h356 can point upwards of 10 degrees higher and (as the video points out) counter the effects of a reach therefore run flatter and faster. Very similar to counter weight. Yes the old old bilge keels were slugs, but modern way out runs their counterparts. Ie a h356 fin keel has no chance (and I’ve tested it many times) against a h356 legend.
Some do . Something like a sadler 29 will spank a lesser fin of same size. A good bilgey will spank any long keel . There are some bilge keel twin rudder racers that can get up on the plane . All french . I wouldn't consider anything else. If boat falls over when tide goes out boat is useless regardless of any other pro 🤷
If I was rich sirias ds 40. But I'm not so I want a colvic countess or a moody 35. Preferably the countess because it's cheaper and comes in ds ketch 😍
@@RiggingDoctor we had Vivacity 20 as go in between boat for about 5 years when we sold our Colin Archer and were building our current boat. Inside it’s surprisingly spacious for 20ft boat sleeping 4 if you are good friends, having water head and gas stove. It’s seaworthy, sails quite well and can take beating. We sailed it mainly on Bothnian bay in Baltic sea where waves tend to be short and choppy. Not sure tho if it points as well to wind as some other same size racier boats with fin keel. Super fun to sail and obviously hauling in/out and storing is absolute breeze. Especially up north handy when season is so short. Ours was in excellent condition...wonder where it’s sailing now...
Yes, we just didn’t include them in the video because they have a lot of variables to them! I will see if I can find a boat with a swing keel and one with a canting keel in the boat yard near us to do a video on them.
@@RiggingDoctor I aperishiat it.and do you know about stabilize for stainless hull types in calm water to tell me about them?and if you tell me also about any shalow v hull design not the mod v like Jon boat.the deep v style but the hull v shape is mor mor open and the angle has big degree.thanks
Rigging Doctor Thanks. I Was definitely thinking steel. I was even thinking of making my own with a design to scrape away part of the rock every time I hit one.
I've run aground on a fin keel and not knowing what to expect or do, I was terrified and basically was afraid to move for 6 hours or more (I was afraid to move ease I thought that I would topple over the boat, which it eventually did anyway). However i've also run aground and managed to get off before getting stuck. The problem with twin keels is that when you run aground you probably are sort of stuck till the tide turns. I don't know what people do in non-tidal areas if they run aground.! The point about twin keels being efficient when heeled is interesting (like the modern trend for twin rudders?) but what about their sailing efficiency when off the wind and not heeled? Is the lift effect of the keel less important off the wind?
Very good point about bilge keeps in non-tidal areas! Off the wind, the keel doesn’t need to produce lift since your direction does not require lift to go in that direction (lift pulls you upwind). In a downwind situation, you now have double the drag. I personally like my single full keel but I think these are really cool!
From what I've read, they don't point so well, but meh, Having half the depth but equal if not greater stability is an attribute well investigating for cruses. I'd like to build possible a Catketch or Junk Rig with a bildge keel or full keel. Of coarse if I were a rich man, it'd be a 70 footer with electric everything.. Nah I'd probably build a Proa with an experimental rig If I was rich!
If you're interested in building a junk rig boat on a small budget, take a look at Jay Benford's Sailing Dories. Most of them have a junk rig option. www.benford.us/dories/ And if you want to see one being built, check out Tony Brown's channel " SV Tapatya" ruclips.net/channel/UCv3C8JO7vzfAZeF6ie5dfZA
They point very well, if you have good sails, keep the weight down and sail them upright just like a fin. Worn out sails and and leaning right over may look fast but you are actually going sideways. The biggest problem is folk don't realise when the sails are really shot, until they replace them.
A friend on Terceira has a 27 foot bilge keel junk rig that he sails all over the place with. He sailed it to the Azores from England and is now cruising through the different islands. He loves it!
I have a hard time giving them credibility when they say (several times) that a vessel " keels over".... When a boat takes on a sustained roll angle it is heeling, not keeling.
Heeling is the act of leaning over due to the force of the wind on the sails. Listing is leaning over due to improper loading. Keeling Over is to turn over, upset, or capsize. These are just general English terms.
For years moody 35s , colvic countess and Westerly ocian quests were the largest. Then came the hunter legend 36 and now the sirias ds 40 is the largest. Bilge keels under 30 are common as muck . Over 30 they like hens teath. I know I'm looking for one a boat that can't stand up is useless to me mate . They are comparatively rare because mud docks are free. But if you can afford a brand new boat over 30 you can probably afford an expensive and rare deep water morning. So only those with big money but no deep water morning anywhere near at all tend to speck them. People like me who want to live in the estuary will pay premium for a bilge over 30 so they get pricey especially the fastesr ones . moody 35 was the dady they go for 50k . Now the dady is the sirias ds 40 . Absolute perfection . About 60% are bilge keels beautiful boat . £300k before you start adding extras 😬 Cheepest bilge over 30ft westerly Berwick . £15k good boat by all accounts it's cheap for no reason other than it's ugly.
And the worst thing sailing off shore is bulge keels skip the water and you tip , they are slow , tender. And your righting moment is not good Just grab it at the top of the mast and tip the boat on its side , you will find t not a very steep angle the boat will fall over , , but you can get in close , dry the boat out quickly , and don’t need a cradle , so over to you
pete9501 owned two of them sailed to Fiji from nz in one and had a nock down , and survived , but never again , fin keels now , thousands of miles logged many fowl weather crossings and nock Downs much safer boat
@@kz4506 You're havin' a laugh aren't you. Grab the top of the mast and tip the boat over you say? Well it doesn't lean much when I climb the mast and certainly ain't going to tip over pulling at it.
@@kz4506 Hello. Was it the old style Bilge Keel "Centre with two small keels" or the larger twin keels. Among others am looking at a Westerly Centaur, though might go for a more modern version of that type. Was the reaction to the knockdown ponderous, or did you feel unsafe?
@@williamgrant3999 get a Centaur you won't regret it. I learned on one when I was a kid. (I have a konsort now, the bigger sister). Centaurs are great, cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, simple and most importantly they sail much better than they look like they should.
You said a fin keel was not affective as a foil when it’s at an angle but keels were designed to create lift like a airplane wing when its on a angle you may want to google it
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I had a twin keel sailboat and it had many advantages over a single keel. It would sail closer into the wind besides if you ever ran it up on the beach or aground you didn't have any damage or at best minimal and only to the keels which were solid lead and fiber glassed on mine. Mine had a rudder on each keel that one would disengaged when heeled over leaving only the one on the low side working while the other one to a neutral in line position. Trust me if you had one you would own nothing else because you could run her up on the beach at the changing of the tide, clean the hull and when it came back in float it off. They can save you lots of money when it comes to boat maintenance. even if it may slow you down a half a knot compared to a single keel.
Very cool! I love hearing first hand accounts ⛵️
Jeremy from HSA1 here.
Modern bilge keels like mine a h356, can point upwards of 10 degrees higher. And (as the video points out) counter the effects of a reach therefore run flatter and faster. Very similar to counter weight. Yes the old old bilge keels were slugs, but modern way out runs their counterpart fin keels.
My dream boat would have a bilge keel. I live in the PNW and we can get 14' plus tidal swings. In Puget Sound, there are LOTS of tidal flats that you can "anchor" at.
They are super useful for that!
I've gone from long keel to bilge keels. Not quite as sea kindly, bit stunning sailing ability and being able to dry out anywhere is just amazing. I'm glad I did it, I can see the advantages of both 👍
My yacht was designed by a yacht designer. It has a full length keel and two fins. The main reason was tidal changes and ability to sail in shallower areas, It has all the weight on the centre keel when on the hard, and the outside keels are for stability. The full keel was chosen for blue water performance and protection of the rudder.
That’s a sweet setup!
make?
@@cancrittercancritter9360 Cecil Boden, marine architect. Cutter rigged sloop.
My introduction to bilge keels came in the late 70's when I stayed on a tiny sailboat named 'Hilarious', which was on the hard in the Dixon-Kearley Boatyard in Maldon, Essex, UK.
I'd volunteered to help work on my friend's boat in the same yard, and the bilge keel boat was our accommodation for our stay.
I immediately appreciated that it made the boat liveable on the hard, or on the beach, without stands.
It wasn't until several years later that I found out that this wasn't the only reason for having bilge keels!
I still think they're great!
I have been very jealous of bilge keel boats every time the tide would go out and leave us somewhere dry! They really are incredible boats with an added benefit!
I used to own a 20' Hurley that truly had bilge keels. Each had a deep bilge except for a portion that was lead ballast.
That boat was relatively slow, but forgiving and great for learning to sail. It would heave to with no difficulty and stay put.
The only problem with standing it up on the keels was that it wasn't very far off the ground. It is much easier to work on the bottom when it's up in the air on stands.
That is true. Having space to get your tools in there is a game changer! When we plan to work on the bottom of the keel, I always put extra tall blocks under the keel to give me more room. I can’t imagine how cumbersome it must be to try and work on a bottom when the keels are partway into the mud bottom.
As a 'twin keel' fan I like the merits you point out. However, technically the center of mass for the two keels combined is right in the middle so you don't gain righting moments over a normal single keel.
Another bonus, is the flywheel effect of having the mass of the two keels so far apart, is supposed to dampen rolling.
Because when heeled one keel becomes more effective than a single keel, I've read that the profile area can be in some cases, 70% of a single keel so combined and if the windward keel does not leave the water, you have a more wetted area, not good in the light, as mentioned.
Righting moment is a function of the horizontal difference between the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. Once the hull is heeling the weight of the leeward keel is under the center of buoyancy and has no righting moment. Like the vessel when on an "even keel". Therefore the windward keel is the only one exerting righting moment and that moment is the horizontal difference between the windward keel and the center of buoyancy.
@@PaulHarris-sl1ct you can't have it both ways. You're correct, RM is CB over CM but the CM doesn't change it's relative position just because the yacht is healed. In effect yes, the keel becoming vertical does less than a single keel but the keel becoming horizontal, does more than a single keel so in effect, twin keels CM, if it's the same position as the single keel, there definitely will not be more RM. If you don't get that, go ask your physics teacher or a naval architect. I design yachts so I do know a little about this stuff, what's your qualification?
Don't think you fully explained why they're worse for racing. The lateral resistance of a single long fin is much more effective than two shorter ones (the hydrodynamics of why is difficult to explain), which means the boat makes less leeway and more force is transferred forwards.
Yet I'm still a fan of bilge keelers for where I live. A fin keeler might win in a deep water race, but if you're trying to get from one harbour to another in a shallow tidal area the bilge keeler would get there first because it can set off an hour earlier thanks to its shorter draft 😄
There's also the hydrodynamics of a canted fin keel to take into account. One of the bilge keels will be pointing directly downwards when heeling, this will reduce leeway compared to the canted over fin keel.
They are worse for racing because of a couple of reasons. They need to have a larger area than half a single keel so that's extra wetted area drag. That's why center board cats sail better to windward than a fixed low profile centerboard and the other reason is large aspect foils have more lift than low aspect foils, the reason glider wings are long and thin, for example.
@@KarlFullerNZ The wetted area makes a bit of difference but not very much (unless heavily fouled), it's usually offset by a bilge keel's better hydrodynamic profile. Horizontal water flow will flow around something short height long length much easier than something tall height short length. Which is why bilge keels can often compete with fins downwind but not upwind.
Agree with your 2nd point, that's just another way of wording what I was saying. Very difficult to summarise it in a short comment.
Thanks. I was always wondering if bilge keels were as safe, now I know. Those Sirius yachts when Publishers Clearing House shows up, are looking really nice.
I have a 34 foot bilge keel.She does not point so high as fin keel and it is slower in light winds. Anything over 30-35 degrees forgeret…. On other hand, much more confortable with higher winds (over 10 knots to get her start…), as she does not lean so much and much more stable with wind from the back or when surfing waves…Great vídeos!Stay safe and fair winds!Cheers
If you want to see a bilge keeler that goes well in light winds, see Mingming 2. Her rig was specially designed for light weather.
ruclips.net/channel/UCqbPTJgSLaMhf0BkdG6t72A
@@Garryck-1 Taylor is a legend . It was him and the other jester challenge boys that 1st really got my imagination going .
I have a bilge keel on our 31 macwester wight yawl, I sail it in Canada and it is a very stable boat and a please to sail
I think its important to point out not all bilge keel boats are created equal. So sweeping statements of bilge keels boats dont point etc is not always true . I know alot of fin keel boats that dont point to well either !
Older bilge keel boats and shorter ( less than 30 ft ) are good for harbours and rivers , there are many good ocean versions.
.The main differences I have found vs fin keel
.Slower - and more leeway on high up wind angles
.the forward pivot point is allot further forward , sailing on to moorings or MOB undersail needs some head sail out.
.Bilge keel heave to beautifully - modern fin keels suck at this !
.Bilge keel boats can slap hard when going to wind
.Inverted stability , I can ' t say as I have not been rolled in a bilge keel . but in theory after avs is reached and she flips the stability upside down would be much higher than a fin keel . I need to do some scale testing unless someone has data on that ?
I think you need to consider what sort of sailing you want to do and where you want to go. I am a big fan of bilge keel boats so versatile in tidal waters. It makes exploring very exciting .
This makes up for the lack of efficacy , lifting keel boats you still have to be careful what you put them down on .
Price is a big factor vs good lifting keel boats .
Yes I would take them on ocean passages .
Pay your money and take your choice
.Inverted stability , I can ' t say as I have not been rolled in a bilge keel . but in theory after avs is reached and she flips the stability upside down would be much higher than a fin keel . I need to do some scale testing unless someone has data on that ?
Did you find some data on this? I´ve been thinking the same thing.. And i have not choosen weather to go with Bilge or not... And this is an importent factor..
The centre of mass for the bilge keel is along the centre of the boat, the same as for a fin keel. The slight angle, and higher positioning on the hull will both make the bilge keel centre of mass higher than an equivalent mass fin keel, making it less effective in righting the boat.
having a slight 'toe in' on the bilge keels helps in righting. A lot of them have this.
Strictly speaking, the term bilge keel originally referred to the original design of double keel, where two keels drop vertically from the hull. Later on, this design was refined, so that the keels are splayed out from the hull at an angle. This was found to be much more efficient in the water and also a more stable platform out of the water. This configuration is sometimes referred to as twin keel, at least in England. Having said all that, people tend to be lazy nowadays and often use bilge keel for everything.
That’s a great bit of information!
I have come to learn that in England they have a distinction between full keel and long keel, while in the states they are lazy and everything that is “not” a fin keel is a full keel.
I'm sure it's the case that modern, well designed bilge keel boats have good upwind performance. But beware older bilge keelers. Upwind performance is way down on that of fin keel boats of otherwise similar design.
twin keel are very popular in Northern Europe
A design I'm working on has bilge keels. It has a cylindrically developed "'V" bottom, so the bilge keels can attach at right angles to the two sides of the "V".
Since these two keels are long, they don' t increase the draft at all.
Just curious how does the effect rolling?
@@andrewyork3869 Sadly, I don't know for a fact, as the boat was never built. It probably wouldn't roll much mainly because it would never be sailed dead down wind. It also wouldn't be too hot going up wind, so it's upwind sailing would be more like glorified close reaches.
Because the amount of side to side motion of the bilge keels would be greater per roll, I suspect they would provide better roll dampening than a single keel of the same proportions.
@@bobcornwell403 ah that makes sense!
V isn't a very efficient design wrt. wetted surface area. A rounded bottom is better as it has better volume to surface are ratio.
@@DaveWatts_ejectamenta
Dave, you are about half right.
A round bottom has the least surface area per section. An ideal round bottom would be a perfect half circle, which would be half as deep as it is wide at the WL. Look in any marina dry storage, and you will almost never find one. Such a boat would have a massive displacement. This kind of section would work great on a mulihul. This is because the hulls are so narrow.
Most monohul sailboats have either "V" or flat bottom sections with rounded corners at the top.
This is because skin friction matters most at speed/length ratios (square root of wl in feet in knots) of 1.0 or less.
There are other considerations as well.
Initial stability is one of them. A half circle section (from sheer to sheer) does not offer a lot of initial stability (required to stand up to the sail area). We do see a few of those around, and with enough ballast, stand up to their sail area well enough.
But the major problem of a boat is to get water around it while making as small waves as possible. This is governed mostly by the waterlines. A 'V" bottom boat has wider waterlines at the top of its underwater sections, but much narrower ones near the bottom . This is the reason we see a great number of heavy displacement sailboats with deep "V" like sections. A deep "V" section has the most draft per volume. This allows the ballast to be placed lower where it is most effective for its weight, without adding all that much surface area.
The most ruinous adder of whetted surface are the twin keels. This is why we never see them on racing sailboats.
Twin keels offer just two major advantages, and none of them have anything to do with increased performance. These two advantages are:
1.) Ability of the boat to stand up on its bottom, when beached, and
2.) Ability to sail in shallower water.
These two advantages are why I chose them for my LOLA design. LOLA was designed to be relatively easy to build and maintain. That and lower building cost and adequate seaworthiness were the primary design considerations. Ease of construction followed those.
The floating draft of LOLA would be about 2 ft (for a 5 by 20 ft sailboat).
The ballast is meant to assure self-righting only, so it is minimal (about 30% of total displacement or less),and it isn't very deep.
So, to get adequate ability to stand up to her sail area, she has a wl beam equal to her maximum beam.
What ever happened to americas cup winner, wing keel? Why did it not become popular
Nice quick video on Bilge Keels.
1) are bilge keels built into the hull like full keels or bolted on types?
2) are they just as strong and safe as full keels on long off shore passages compared to bolt on keels?
3) god forbid you loose one keel on a passage with a bilge keel are you dead in the water or can you continue sailing rest of the way?
1. They come in both forms.
2. Encapsulated keels have no keel bolts. Bolt on versions have the issues with keel bolts.
3. If you drop a keel, the boat will list a bit and be ok on one tack and really heel on the other tack. Not to mention list while at rest.
Rigging Doctor thanks 4 feedback! Really enjoy your videos
Sounds plausible, 25' trawler Boojum has them, designed to carry fuel as opposed to a box keel with bilge plates.. They make sense for this purpose, stabilizing and for providing support.. so why aren't they more common!
Two keels? I don't even have one! Leeboards for tracking and a couple of extra hulls to avoid that whole heeling problem you mentioned. :)
wisenber catamaran or tri-hull boat?
@@Mikinct I have a a trimaran. I have to bury a hull under water to heel more than 10 degrees. I reef before that.
wisenber awesome to learn that info, thanks & happy sailings!
How long have you been sailing for. Did you start out with a day sailor like a Catalina 22’ boat to learn or a Hobbie Cat?
@@Mikinct I started out paddling a kayak for a few years. Then I decided to add a sail to my kayak for a few years. Then I built a small trimaran a few years ago. Still less than six years of sailing, but building the boat really helped understand more of how they work.
I found small boats really help simplify the process of learning to sail. The complexity of a split rig and all of the hardware is a pretty big distraction from learning the basics.
My next boat is still in the planning phases. I'm looking to build a 13 meter trimaran that is capable of crossing oceans but still able to be trailered. That one will be more carbon fiber and less marine ply. Should be quite a bot faster too.
Thanks for your interest.
Other advantages over say, a lifting keel, is the keel and rudder feet are the only contact points to scratch up while the tide changes and boat shifts. Also, perhaps a safer feeling being raised up when dry... makes it tougher for troublemakers to board. Electrified hull, sheezam
That is an excellent point!
l think that slowing me down will not be a problem for me l´m going to buy a westerly 31 with bilge keels that boat is built like a tank, thank you
Those boats are so solidly built!
Great info. I live in Delaware so thought a bilge keel to be a good idea. You sold me. Also like your shirt CAPTAIN.
Many times I have wanted a bilge keel! They are hard to find in the US, but pretty common around England.
Most important advantage is that bilge keelers roll far less when reaching or going downwind. An enormous advantage when sailing in trade winds
That is true! They would act as stabilizers when underway!
The importance of keeling is the relationship of the lateral resistance ahead of the sail effort. It is important that the location of keel is ahead of the sails. Keeling is relative the size and location of the sails. Does the boat have a good keel line. Is she seaworthy stem to stern . Lwr least wind resistant keeling
Hull keeling or blade keeling .
This was an academic perspective of keeling not the conventional opinion of keeling. What people do is not what they should do. Common keeling is off keel.
What about retractable keels?
And now we know! Thanks
Have You tried to beach sand the boat? As always +1
We did accidentally once...I believe the video is called "Totally Beached"
I know this video is old but I just saw it for the first time. However I do have a question. what would be the down said of having three keels with the third one being adjustable? Just wondering if there would be benefits!
Thanks in advance to anyone giving the answer or their thoughts 😃!
If they are all the same length, it wouldn’t be able to stand on the keels level, so it would have to be an adjustable center board. Being a board, it could be really long which would give wonderful performance when going upwind while still being retracted when going downwind.
The only downside would be the complexity of the board where most of these boats are built for simplicity. They need a keel so they get one, then they need to stand up at low tide so they get a second leg. The designer then looks at it and says “that’s enough to get the job done” and moves onto some other part of the boat.
If you find one with that, I would not shy away from it as it would be the best from all worlds!
@@RiggingDoctor thank you Herb, this makes me feel good coming from someone of your level of experience. However, I've never seen one with three keels but it is something I'd like to build one day. I've studied a few years to create my perfect boat. Although I know there's no such thing as a perfect boat but there is a such thing as the perfect boat for me.
I've also left a comment on another video about props please check in out as I feel I've given you a great idea. But I trust and respect your thoughts on it. (Potential money saver but your the judge of that)
P.S. in my three keels design I planed on making the third keel raise slightly higher than the other two and go lower as well. I just have to determine how low so I could take advantage of low tide and possibly beaching and have a bit of comfort in rough water. Thanks again and cheese to you and your lovely wife.
The closest thing to a three keel boat would be the modern vendee boats. They have the ballasted keel which cants side to side to help with righting moment, a dagger board in front of the keel that acts as the keel, and then port and starboard dagger boards.
When sailing, the windward dagger board is raised to reduce drag, and you have from windward to leeward: ballasted keel, Center dagger board, leeward dagger board.
It’s a three keel system that definitely can not support the boats weight at low tide 🤣 but it might be an idea generator for how they are placed while in use to avoid interference between the boards.
@@RiggingDoctor cool I'll look it up but I want something solid as a rock because my boat will be a heavy girl and I'm loving the idea of standing upright in low water or on the hard. I thought a third keel would give more stability in rough water if it could drop below the other two keels and raise higher. At least this would not affect my draft in a negative way. And like you said the boat will still stand on the two main keels. I'm just trying to build a safe one of a kind comfortable boat to spend lots of time on and will not have to come to shore if I don't need to. So this is part of what I have to do. You've helped me a lot Herb and big thanks for you for it. Question, is there a reason why I've only seen two keel systems on metal boat's?
@@RiggingDoctor I've looked up vendee boats, it is indeed an interesting design however it won't help me in my design because those keels and dagger boards don't seem to be able to hold the weight of my boat. It's in the design because I feel I need the ballast. And just so you know I'm not going to build a sail boat. So something's I can get away with but not go to crazy.
Truth be told I've come up with an electric system in which I could regen under way. Infact, it's the only way I can regen outside of solar. Having said this Herb, I need an efficient hull(sailboat). But not just a good hull it has to able to carry weight. It's a one of a kind so I must be able to carry parts tools etc. So I hope now you can see why I asked so many questions from you (your experience).
I have only one shot at this so I have to design this thing right from the start. Thanks for your time Herb not many RUclipsrs will take the time you have to talk to followers. Your #1...
For me it's simple. I can park on the beach! I can live on a drying river mooring that is 10% of the price. I can explore shallows. The slight loss of efficiency is not important. Too many cruising boats copy racing designs and the racing rule, imo. It's not a good compromise. Prioritise what's fun!
I agree! These boats really are excellent cruisers. It’s like if the family minivan was styled after an F1 car. No one will be happy in that situation, so why should your cruising boat be subject to the same mistake.
Are twin keel sail boats suitable for open sea? Or or just costal cursing?
They work on the ocean, but their big advantage shows when the tide goes out.
Your explanation of bilge keels makes them sound like they are great, so the question from a non-sailor is, why are they not more popular?
It’s simple sales tricks. They cost slightly more to make so Boat builders are discouraged. Since fewer are made, people think they are weird and therefore don’t want them.
They are very popular in places with extreme tides because there the boats will frequently be left high and dry. Bulge keels makes that a no brainer! Everywhere else, they are the “odd boat”. I think they are very cool 😎
@@RiggingDoctor Do you know if they have any disadvantages or advantages of like a fin or long keel when it comes to bouncing and comfort? I would want to weigh that against the side to side safety. I have been looking at Sirius but also rustler, gozzard, and Island Packets. I would love a twin but keep loving the tracking and comfort of long keels stories, I have have not heard how twins do in the open sea.
@@mikefetterman6782 go look up Rodger Taylor in Ming Ming . Allot of the other jester challenge boats are bilges. It's a single handed Atlantic race . Ming Ming is a 24 it's been every where. In Britain it's the default.
and would a twin keel be better?
That depends where you are. Around here (tidal estuaries of SE Britain), they're everywhere. Probably the most common keel type.
This is going to be good so I better watch it now.
What only 2.28 minutes,oh well.
Short and sweet!
What about stability? Full/long keels or bilge/twin keel?
Yousif Jawher as in how tipsy the boat is in a marina or how much it heels while under sail? It’s about the same. You really wouldn’t know that a boat had bilge keels if the water was murky until the tide went out!
@@RiggingDoctor Yeah, exactly. As in how much the boat heels and if they have a disadvantage with higher waves in terms of safety.
Yousif Jawher they function the same as a fin keel would, meaning they point well but when you heave to, they slip laterally through the water since they don’t have the surface area of a long keel.
As for sailing in heavy seas, they are very popular around England and that area is notorious for having terrible seas! That should speak to their sea worthiness :)
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you. I've only been sailing once, but recently I've been watching a lot of sailing videos (even though I live in a country with only 26KMs of coastline) and it's gotten me really interested. Any recommendations on where to start with learning about sailing? Do you think an "official course" or license are necessary?
Yousif Jawher if you’re country requires a license, the process of getting your license will teach you a lot, but not everything about sailing. Some countries licenses teach you the laws around boating but forget to teach the boating parts!
My two suggestions for learning about sailing are: reading books and going sailing as much as you can with friends. For books: I highly recommend “The Self Sufficient Cruiser” and “Storm Tactics” by Lin & Larry Pardey. All of their books are packed with information but these two are important to start on.
The first teaches a lot of sailing tricks while the other teaches you what to do when 💩happens. Knowing what to do in the worst of it means that you will never get caught without knowing how to handle the situation.
Another source of information you could read is the blog: www.riggingdoctor.com/life-aboard/tag/Sail+Plans+and+Rigs
It covers a wide range of topics and goes quite in depth.
These are not bilge keels ,it is a twin keel , a true bilge keel has a central keel with bilge plates !! Sorry to be pedantic
Technically but it won't help you buy one if you surch like that .
Does a bilge keel help with going to windward? Does it allow it to point higher into the wind than a single keel?
It does not. The only big advantage is when the tide goes out. Otherwise, the extra keel is just extra drag while sailing to windward.
@@RiggingDoctor thank you.
Keel bolts they have them a wise choice is an encapsulated fin
Very true. Fiberglass won’t fall off as easily as a bolt failure can! I sleep much better with my encapsulated keel. I never need to think about it :)
You don't see a lot of bilge keels around the great lakes. I would say fins are the most common.
These keeps are popular in areas with huge tidal ranges. We saw most of them in places where the tide was greater than 10 feet.
It’s always handy to have a spare! (Fellow bilge-keeler)
I have a 20ft snapdragon I'm about to learn to sail, my biggest worry is if I do not drop the sails quick enough, would a twin bilge keel capsize before a single keels, to me its stability is the negative?
The center of mass of the two keels is still in the middle of the boat, so no difference from it to a single keel
@@RiggingDoctor Thank you this makes me feel so much better, as the plan is to sit on its keels at low tides rather than a harbour.
Why not talk about double swing keels and show how they work?
First I need to find someone with that setup who wants to do a demonstration.
Is drag the only down side of a Bilge keel?
There is another problem when a fin keeled yacht follows us into the shallows. Yes it happened. He floated off eventually.
Upwind performance is generally inferior with twin keels, which is a consequence of the added drag, but also could be a consequence of very bad flow around the windward keel. In my area.
From what I have read about them, you have double the drag of a fin keel, but still less drag than a full keel.
Having been dried out by an outgoing tide and leaning all the way over for the next 12 hours, the thought of having little keel legs to keep me upright sounds like a huge plus!
No, we don’t plan on being in those situations but if you were to find yourself there, why not make it more delightful?
@@RiggingDoctor here in Cornwall some people who can't afford a large bilgy buy a full keel and fit dry out legs . Under 30ft they are cheap but over 30 they get pricy. Cheapest bilge over 30 is a Westerly Berwick at about 15k .
But we all want a moody they are 50k
A bilge ballast with Leeboards at the proper angle solves the wetted area increase which plaque the twin bilge keel design. How much degradation of speed havimg two keels? I'm guessing not that much. 10%? If that. So how come not many leeboards ocean going blue water boats are not made. The Dutch sure did.
Do they sail smoother
That tends to come more from the hull shape and displacement to length ratio than the number of keels. The big advantage they offer is the ability to stand upright when the tide goes out.
I decided to by bilge kee.may hu guide me to get one?I live in Cyprus thank you
You will find one mate . British people sail them to the med and leave them there.
Tristen Jones sailed a tiny bilge keel all over the world even to the high lake navigable. Lake Titicaca. So bilge keels and leeboards just have a bad rap from pure prejudice. They are just funny looking and there lies the rub.
So how about leeboards?
I’ve never seen a boat with them in person to do a video on them.
@@RiggingDoctor I have one!
Twin bilge keels = more drag , slower , and they don't sail into wind as well as a single keel , thus racing sail boats don't use them .
Not true. Modern bilge keels like mine a h356 can point upwards of 10 degrees higher and (as the video points out) counter the effects of a reach therefore run flatter and faster. Very similar to counter weight. Yes the old old bilge keels were slugs, but modern way out runs their counterparts. Ie a h356 fin keel has no chance (and I’ve tested it many times) against a h356 legend.
Some do . Something like a sadler 29 will spank a lesser fin of same size.
A good bilgey will spank any long keel . There are some bilge keel twin rudder racers that can get up on the plane . All french .
I wouldn't consider anything else. If boat falls over when tide goes out boat is useless regardless of any other pro 🤷
My butt is a bilge keel.
Hello that is funny saludos
Thats funny!!!!
I like bilge keels and thats no lie...
@@Tzphardi to funny hahaha LMBO saludos
@@Tzphardi those other rudders can't deny
Paldies par informaciju……
👍
If I was rich sirias ds 40. But I'm not so I want a colvic countess or a moody 35. Preferably the countess because it's cheaper and comes in ds ketch 😍
I see you found the episode haha
Did you ever sail one?
No, but lots of reading and many friends with them who have sailed both who have told us all about the pros and few cons of bilge keels.
@@RiggingDoctor we had Vivacity 20 as go in between boat for about 5 years when we sold our Colin Archer and were building our current boat. Inside it’s surprisingly spacious for 20ft boat sleeping 4 if you are good friends, having water head and gas stove.
It’s seaworthy, sails quite well and can take beating. We sailed it mainly on Bothnian bay in Baltic sea where waves tend to be short and choppy. Not sure tho if it points as well to wind as some other same size racier boats with fin keel. Super fun to sail and obviously hauling in/out and storing is absolute breeze. Especially up north handy when season is so short. Ours was in excellent condition...wonder where it’s sailing now...
Do you know about adjustable keel'?
Yes, we just didn’t include them in the video because they have a lot of variables to them!
I will see if I can find a boat with a swing keel and one with a canting keel in the boat yard near us to do a video on them.
@@RiggingDoctor I aperishiat it.and do you know about stabilize for stainless hull types in calm water to tell me about them?and if you tell me also about any shalow v hull design not the mod v like Jon boat.the deep v style but the hull v shape is mor mor open and the angle has big degree.thanks
Does anyone make a keel for a rocky river bed?
I would look at a boat made with a steel hull, but I do not know of any off the top of my head.
Rigging Doctor Thanks. I Was definitely thinking steel. I was even thinking of making my own with a design to scrape away part of the rock every time I hit one.
Van da sradt 34 is a heavy steel bilge keel.
I've run aground on a fin keel and not knowing what to expect or do, I was terrified and basically was afraid to move for 6 hours or more (I was afraid to move ease I thought that I would topple over the boat, which it eventually did anyway). However i've also run aground and managed to get off before getting stuck. The problem with twin keels is that when you run aground you probably are sort of stuck till the tide turns. I don't know what people do in non-tidal areas if they run aground.!
The point about twin keels being efficient when heeled is interesting (like the modern trend for twin rudders?) but what about their sailing efficiency when off the wind and not heeled? Is the lift effect of the keel less important off the wind?
Very good point about bilge keeps in non-tidal areas!
Off the wind, the keel doesn’t need to produce lift since your direction does not require lift to go in that direction (lift pulls you upwind). In a downwind situation, you now have double the drag.
I personally like my single full keel but I think these are really cool!
I was nearly 30 before I knew none tidal zones exsisted.
See goes out see comes back watched it all my life never questioned it 😆
From what I've read, they don't point so well, but meh, Having half the depth but equal if not greater stability is an attribute well investigating for cruses.
I'd like to build possible a Catketch or Junk Rig with a bildge keel or full keel. Of coarse if I were a rich man, it'd be a 70 footer with electric everything.. Nah I'd probably build a Proa with an experimental rig If I was rich!
If you're interested in building a junk rig boat on a small budget, take a look at Jay Benford's Sailing Dories. Most of them have a junk rig option. www.benford.us/dories/
And if you want to see one being built, check out Tony Brown's channel " SV Tapatya" ruclips.net/channel/UCv3C8JO7vzfAZeF6ie5dfZA
They point very well, if you have good sails, keep the weight down and sail them upright just like a fin. Worn out sails and and leaning right over may look fast but you are actually going sideways. The biggest problem is folk don't realise when the sails are really shot, until they replace them.
A friend on Terceira has a 27 foot bilge keel junk rig that he sails all over the place with. He sailed it to the Azores from England and is now cruising through the different islands.
He loves it!
I have a hard time giving them credibility when they say (several times) that a vessel " keels over".... When a boat takes on a sustained roll angle it is heeling, not keeling.
Heeling is the act of leaning over due to the force of the wind on the sails.
Listing is leaning over due to improper loading.
Keeling Over is to turn over, upset, or capsize.
These are just general English terms.
2 keels holds twice amount of builgecheese😁
What size boat (how big) does it come on?
For years moody 35s , colvic countess and Westerly ocian quests were the largest. Then came the hunter legend 36 and now the sirias ds 40 is the largest.
Bilge keels under 30 are common as muck . Over 30 they like hens teath. I know I'm looking for one a boat that can't stand up is useless to me mate .
They are comparatively rare because mud docks are free. But if you can afford a brand new boat over 30 you can probably afford an expensive and rare deep water morning. So only those with big money but no deep water morning anywhere near at all tend to speck them.
People like me who want to live in the estuary will pay premium for a bilge over 30 so they get pricey especially the fastesr ones . moody 35 was the dady they go for 50k . Now the dady is the sirias ds 40 . Absolute perfection . About 60% are bilge keels beautiful boat . £300k before you start adding extras 😬
Cheepest bilge over 30ft westerly Berwick . £15k good boat by all accounts it's cheap for no reason other than it's ugly.
And the worst thing sailing off shore is bulge keels skip the water and you tip , they are slow , tender. And your righting moment is not good Just grab it at the top of the mast and tip the boat on its side , you will find t not a very steep angle the boat will fall over , , but you can get in close , dry the boat out quickly , and don’t need a cradle , so over to you
Someone hasn't sailed a bilge keeled yacht have they?
pete9501 owned two of them sailed to Fiji from nz in one and had a nock down , and survived , but never again , fin keels now , thousands of miles logged many fowl weather crossings and nock Downs much safer boat
@@kz4506 You're havin' a laugh aren't you. Grab the top of the mast and tip the boat over you say? Well it doesn't lean much when I climb the mast and certainly ain't going to tip over pulling at it.
@@kz4506 Hello.
Was it the old style Bilge Keel "Centre with two small keels" or the larger twin keels. Among others am looking at a Westerly Centaur, though might go for a more modern version of that type. Was the reaction to the knockdown ponderous, or did you feel unsafe?
@@williamgrant3999 get a Centaur you won't regret it. I learned on one when I was a kid. (I have a konsort now, the bigger sister). Centaurs are great, cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, simple and most importantly they sail much better than they look like they should.
Twin hulls is better. Faster more stabel. But more expensive
There are always pros and cons to every design
Right up until you have to tack then they are a pain in the butt. A trimaran is a different story.
Weather helm
the weather helm is no different to a fin keel, and a hell of a lot less than a long keel. I've sailed all three, extensively without autupilots.
More leeway with a bulge keel and not as efficient as a fin keel. Each has advantages and disadvantages
That’s a sailboat! Pick one that has advantages you care about with disadvantages that don’t interest you.
sigh
😊
How odd.
Not if you are British it's the default.
@@avancalledrupert5130 was there a distinction to be made in your point? 😂
You said a fin keel was not affective as a foil when it’s at an angle but keels were designed to create lift like a airplane wing when its on a angle you may want to google it
Sorry, I should clarify. I was not referring to angle of attack but angle of heel.
slow as
…Two keels?