If the 2 stroke road racing engine was developed to this level of Engineering sophistication instead of being phased out due to emissions..horsepower would be higher with a much lower engine weight.
@retiredbore378 Technology to develop more advanced cleaner burning synthetic polyester lubricants would have reduced these emissions even further if it was pursued.
@Retired BoreThe lack of electronic fuel injection (as per Mitsubishi on 4 strokes) and stratified charge did nothing for 2-strokes. Then we all chase after some demented electric or fuel cell goal.
yes agreed... the pollution boogeyman laws killed the 2 stroke way before it could have been further developed into some kind of UFO technology stupidly simple engine!
Most all racing programs are supposed to eventually feed improvements in the parent company's general product line. It made sense for the two-strokes for a long time but they just don't carry through for a road-going product. I was an ardent two-stroke fan starting in the late '50s (first bike was a 200cc Zundapp) then got into Bultaco for competition and a street machine. About that time I went to work for a Honda/BSA dealer and as my experience broadened, I began to see that durability and general good manners favored the four-cycle. I've enjoyed both, campaigned Suzuki 250s for years for off-road but the then new four-cycle street Suzukis began to dull the magnificence of the two strokes and I could see the division was favoring the four-cycles for the future.
The NSU " Steam-train " drive was interesting . I bet it made for some BAD vibration , but was fairly Bulletproof as well . And the Gear Drives are Pure ART . Strongest method , but also HIDEOUSLY expensive to manufacture .
@Retired Bore . Gears ARE the Best drive system , and Helical gears are rather quiet actually . Straight cut Howl like a bitch . That NSU drive has ONE of the Elements STATIC . Basically just a SPACER . The Moving Elements , to be effective , would be best spaced at 90 degrees EXACTLY like a Steam Locomotives drive rods . This will produce an odd Primary AND Secondary vibration that Phases with the Single Cylinder Engines issues with Primary and Secondary Balance . The Cam Drive would run at Half Engine speed and Ergo , the Cam Drive would alternately Supplement and Detract from the Major Engine Vibrations . The Counterweights would not fully damp this . I stand by my original statement .
@Retired Bore . It was You that started talking about about 120 degrees , out of context . 120 degrees is the best separation needed on a Three cylinder Inline Engine . Really 240 degrees in a Four-Stroke triple . And 120 degrees is the Ideal Bank separation in a V-6 for perfect primary and secondary balance . Since steam cylinders are Double Acting the 120 degrees or 60 degrees would be equally effective . Just likely that 120 was used for balance reasons . All those facts are IRRELEVANT . We re discussing a Single cylinder Engine , which has no balance to speak of , using a reciprocating drive for the Camshaft . A drive that will be harmonically Phasing with the Primary reciprocating Mass . I stand by my original statement yet Again .
@Retired Bore . Heard it running in the Video . Numbnuts . It would not matter about where you set the Cam Rods . You just gave Degrees for Effective 180 degrees opposed to the Conrod . Next revolution they will be Precisely with the Conrod , since Cam drive is Half Engine speed . And the Cam drive plates also move fore and aft at the same Timing rate , thereby exacerbating one stroke and slightly dampening the other . A Slower more pronounced shake I would think . Still standing by my original statement . Singles are Rough . That would have been Rougher .
The Chater-Lea @ 11.45 could have developed Desmo, given that precise closure is not necessary for valve sealing. But this was not known in the 20s, and was discovered by Mercedes in the 50s. A 2-thou clearance is close enough, cylinder pressure will close the valve automatically.
Ikut senang karena pencipta motor dengan merek JAWA... Jawa adalah nama sebuah pulau di Indonesia,, dan suku jawa adalah suku dengan jumlah populasi terbanyak lebih dari 160.000.000 jiwa di Indonesia dan di seluruh dunia ini.
Darn. I was hoping to see the MV Augusta four cylinder here. My buddy got a 1976 750 that was too cool! The gearbox internals could be accessed from either side of the bike, and the camshaft drive was through a gear tower between #2 and #3 cylinders. The tower could be removed as a unit and the straight cut gears made an awesome sound, almost like a jet!
The MV Agusta is a very interesting example of design. The road bikes of the late '60s to mid '70s were a road version of the '50s race bikes, with shaft drive just like the first 500cc GP bikes of the late'40s which Les Graham raced. The main engine casting is a giant housing, with the gearbox inserted from one side. The engine itself is self-contained, with just the very top segment of the cases holding the main bearings. Cylinders are individual castings, with the cam drive being a separate assembly inserted between the middle cylinders. The head is a one-piece casting with cam follower housings carrying the shafts as well. This modular arrangement allows the engine to be removed from the cases by undoing a line of nuts holding the crank bearing carrier to the main casting. It is very useful if you have a major engine failure while testing, or for any reason need a fresh engine in a hurry.
@@pashakdescilly7517 it was an amazing machine. It's biggest flaw was the front hub, narrow enough to put double discs on Ceriani road racing forks. With the narrow hub and Borani alloy rims, hard braking would cause the front rim to warp requiring "re-truing" the front wheel at regular intervals.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 i am surprised that such a fault would be allowed to persist on such an expensive machine. Larger spoke flanges might help, but could lead to contact between spokes and brake caliper. That would at least lower the stress on the spokes. It's not so very difficult to make wider yokes to allow space for a wider hub.
@@pashakdescilly7517 my understanding is that was changed the next model year to cast wheels for just that reason. My friend bought it NOS in 1980 for half list price ($3600 rather than $7800) because the distributor had gone bankrupt and the carbs were full of preservative.
еще был очень классный прототип "ЛМ-350", 4т мотоцикл на базе ИЖ-350 с верхним расположением клапанов. правда видео с ним не найти, только пара страниц из газеты с фотографией мотора. похож на последний Бенелли, только на 6 лет раньше, в 1952м году
For radial four-valve-heads you might go for a hollow cam rotating round the spark pluck. Suits particularly well for opposing exhausts. And has a simple shaft drive ...
@@jamesangelucci5052 Not true. There are a number of engines with radial valves in recent production - Aprilia 650 single, Ferrari 355, Honda various singles. The Aprilia and Ferrari engines use bucket tappets and have no extra parts. The Honda system uses single ohc, normal rockers and a sideways finger follower.
What was the use of driving the cam with those big connecting rods instead of just using a timing chain or belt. Well tooth belt technology might not have been so great back then but certainly timing chains work great. Seems like it would be a lot less energy to run one , too.
You can't be serious. For a motor that stays below 2500 rpm like a diesel engine they work ok. Not for a high revving motorcycle engine. Come on think this through.
Gear Drive is the only way to go. All of my Hondas have died when the cam chain would break and destroy the engine in spite of routine maintenance and tightening. A cheap and nasty way of driving a valve chain which is why the Japanese use it it works until the second it doesn't and then it destroys your engine.
@@fidelcatsro6948 A friend of mine had a Honda 450 of the late 1960s. It had a crankshaft sprocket formed as part of the shaft itself. Due to wear of this sprocket, his cam chains wore rapidly, and he kept stripping the engine to replace the chain. Eventually he scrapped the bike, as he could not replace or repair this sprocket
Face Cams, sure enough! You don't see them so much, maybe in a sewing-machine or a steam engine! Never heard of that brand, looks so mechanical... sounds like a blender full of change! This is an unusually interesting video, for the mechanically minded.
I own a 1996 ducati m900. Have owned it since new and have never had a belt break. I have never heard of a gold wing breaking a belt. But then maybe if it was yours it would
SLOW DOWN THE INFO WRITING IN THE VIDEO SOME OF US CAN'T READ LIKE A FLASH OF LIGHTNING KIR CAN REMEMBER WHAT WAS WRITTEN PLEEEEZZZ DUDE SLOW DWN 👁 ENJOY YOUR CONTENT BUT 👁 DON'T READ FAST
Ah! This is why Ducatis engines dont work for so long as the Japanese. Its far to complicated ,like Ktm and the Italians electrics dont do them a favor.1🤣🤣
Bevel gears in an engine driving the valve train, might be the dumbest I ever seen. Sounds like it's coming apart. wow. Nobody thought that one through. Them bevels won't last long & give you a headach. Why would any company then fill the whole damn motor with gears? Good god man . Use chains to drive cam's & valve trains. No wonder this company went no where.
If the 2 stroke road racing engine was developed to this level of Engineering sophistication instead of being phased out due to emissions..horsepower would be higher with a much lower engine weight.
@retiredbore378 Technology to develop more advanced cleaner burning synthetic polyester lubricants would have reduced these emissions even further if it was pursued.
@Retired BoreThe lack of electronic fuel injection (as per Mitsubishi on 4 strokes) and stratified charge did nothing for 2-strokes. Then we all chase after some demented electric or fuel cell goal.
yes agreed... the pollution boogeyman laws killed the 2 stroke way before it could have been further developed into some kind of UFO technology stupidly simple engine!
Most all racing programs are supposed to eventually feed improvements in the parent company's general product line. It made sense for the two-strokes for a long time but they just don't carry through for a road-going product. I was an ardent two-stroke fan starting in the late '50s (first bike was a 200cc Zundapp) then got into Bultaco for competition and a street machine. About that time I went to work for a Honda/BSA dealer and as my experience broadened, I began to see that durability and general good manners favored the four-cycle. I've enjoyed both, campaigned Suzuki 250s for years for off-road but the then new four-cycle street Suzukis began to dull the magnificence of the two strokes and I could see the division was favoring the four-cycles for the future.
Join k
I love the styling and beauty of the first two motorcycles. Too bad nobody makes a beautiful motorcycle anymore.
Totally agree!
Make you're own eh??
Was bevel gear drive just too expensive compared to chain / sprockets?
What of the smart looking little single in the thumbnail? Most intriguing yet didn't see it in detail.
Thanks Marty for this compilation of internals cam drives. Cheers
As Eric said, the Moto Morini 350 twin had the first use of a rubber timing belt - by Gates.
The NSU " Steam-train " drive was interesting . I bet it made for some BAD vibration , but was fairly Bulletproof as well .
And the Gear Drives are Pure ART . Strongest method , but also HIDEOUSLY expensive to manufacture .
It's odd seeing a counterweight on a camshaft..
@Retired Bore . Gears ARE the Best drive system , and Helical gears are rather quiet actually . Straight cut Howl like a bitch .
That NSU drive has ONE of the Elements STATIC . Basically just a SPACER .
The Moving Elements , to be effective , would be best spaced at 90 degrees EXACTLY like a Steam Locomotives drive rods . This will produce an odd Primary AND Secondary vibration that Phases with the Single Cylinder Engines issues with Primary and Secondary Balance . The Cam Drive would run at Half Engine speed and Ergo , the Cam Drive would alternately Supplement and Detract from the Major Engine Vibrations . The Counterweights would not fully damp this .
I stand by my original statement .
@Retired Bore . It was You that started talking about about 120 degrees , out of context .
120 degrees is the best separation needed on a Three cylinder Inline Engine . Really 240 degrees in a Four-Stroke triple .
And 120 degrees is the Ideal Bank separation in a V-6 for perfect primary and secondary balance .
Since steam cylinders are Double Acting the 120 degrees or 60 degrees would be equally effective . Just likely that 120 was used for balance reasons .
All those facts are IRRELEVANT .
We re discussing a Single cylinder Engine , which has no balance to speak of , using a reciprocating drive for the Camshaft . A drive that will be harmonically Phasing with the Primary reciprocating Mass .
I stand by my original statement yet Again .
In my opinion has heavy parasitic losses! But was a very good bike!👏👏👏
@Retired Bore . Heard it running in the Video . Numbnuts .
It would not matter about where you set the Cam Rods .
You just gave Degrees for Effective 180 degrees opposed to the Conrod .
Next revolution they will be Precisely with the Conrod , since Cam drive is Half Engine speed .
And the Cam drive plates also move fore and aft at the same Timing rate , thereby exacerbating one stroke and slightly dampening the other .
A Slower more pronounced shake I would think .
Still standing by my original statement .
Singles are Rough . That would have been Rougher .
The Chater-Lea @ 11.45 could have developed Desmo, given that precise closure is not necessary for valve sealing. But this was not known in the 20s, and was discovered by Mercedes in the 50s. A 2-thou clearance is close enough, cylinder pressure will close the valve automatically.
Java legendar motorcycle Long engines. Easy mechanische
I sense a fine line of madness connecting all motorcycle engine valve train designers following the side-valve era.
Ikut senang karena pencipta motor dengan merek JAWA...
Jawa adalah nama sebuah pulau di Indonesia,, dan suku jawa adalah suku dengan jumlah populasi terbanyak lebih dari 160.000.000 jiwa di Indonesia dan di seluruh dunia ini.
I love the gear train on the Ducati, it reminds me of when Pete Jackson made an all gear drive for the Ford Cammer engine.
nice but adds weight and makes it heavy like a cow!
Before the Honda, Moto Morini 350 v twin uses rubber belt for timing cam.
Darn. I was hoping to see the MV Augusta four cylinder here. My buddy got a 1976 750 that was too cool! The gearbox internals could be accessed from either side of the bike, and the camshaft drive was through a gear tower between #2 and #3 cylinders. The tower could be removed as a unit and the straight cut gears made an awesome sound, almost like a jet!
The MV Agusta is a very interesting example of design. The road bikes of the late '60s to mid '70s were a road version of the '50s race bikes, with shaft drive just like the first 500cc GP bikes of the late'40s which Les Graham raced.
The main engine casting is a giant housing, with the gearbox inserted from one side. The engine itself is self-contained, with just the very top segment of the cases holding the main bearings. Cylinders are individual castings, with the cam drive being a separate assembly inserted between the middle cylinders. The head is a one-piece casting with cam follower housings carrying the shafts as well.
This modular arrangement allows the engine to be removed from the cases by undoing a line of nuts holding the crank bearing carrier to the main casting. It is very useful if you have a major engine failure while testing, or for any reason need a fresh engine in a hurry.
@@pashakdescilly7517 it was an amazing machine. It's biggest flaw was the front hub, narrow enough to put double discs on Ceriani road racing forks. With the narrow hub and Borani alloy rims, hard braking would cause the front rim to warp requiring "re-truing" the front wheel at regular intervals.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 i am surprised that such a fault would be allowed to persist on such an expensive machine. Larger spoke flanges might help, but could lead to contact between spokes and brake caliper. That would at least lower the stress on the spokes. It's not so very difficult to make wider yokes to allow space for a wider hub.
@@pashakdescilly7517 my understanding is that was changed the next model year to cast wheels for just that reason. My friend bought it NOS in 1980 for half list price ($3600 rather than $7800) because the distributor had gone bankrupt and the carbs were full of preservative.
@@eloiseharbeson2483 your friend did well to get it at such a low price. Now worth rather more....
еще был очень классный прототип "ЛМ-350", 4т мотоцикл на базе ИЖ-350 с верхним расположением клапанов. правда видео с ним не найти, только пара страниц из газеты с фотографией мотора. похож на последний Бенелли, только на 6 лет раньше, в 1952м году
2:20 That's clever!
7:19 The flat four Gold Wing timing belts are the same as used in some models of Toyota Corolla
For radial four-valve-heads you might go for a hollow cam rotating round the spark pluck. Suits particularly well for opposing exhausts. And has a simple shaft drive ...
Weight too much weight
@@jamesangelucci5052 Not true. There are a number of engines with radial valves in recent production - Aprilia 650 single, Ferrari 355, Honda various singles. The Aprilia and Ferrari engines use bucket tappets and have no extra parts. The Honda system uses single ohc, normal rockers and a sideways finger follower.
Your channel is very interesting sir !!! Thank you............
The Germans always think of the most complex way to do anyting all that works don't get me wrong it just seems that they go out of their way
That's why their upkeep is so costly !
yes indeed especially where the design used a crankshaft and conrod style of turning the camshafts!! hahahaha but ingenious!
Just so that we can enjoy the simplicity of the Japanese
In the end, the TIMING CHAIN won !
yes stupidly simple design all it needs is proper oil change intervals.. and last almost the lifetime of the bike!
Jawa 500 powinni to nadal produkować . Poprawić tu i tam i motor idealny.
The junior TT winner 1926 Alice Bennett on Velocette ohc came velo .Did you forget or didn't you know?
Why was the timing chain placed in the middle, for air cooled engines???
To spread the load so camshafts were lighter plus if you have camchain between middle cylinders helps heat displacement.
Je to jasné, kvůli mazání řetězu a dobrému a stejnému chlazení obou válců vzduchem.🤩
10:00 what a Beauty! 🤩
Moto Morini 3 1/2 uses rubber belt drive for the ohv sistem of valves. Befor the Goldwing Honda
So, where's the one in the thumbnail pic???
I think Moto Morini beat Honda to the rubber belt cam drive in the 3-1/2, in 1973.
thanks !!!
Las máquinas evolucionaron gracias al hombre, pero el hombre no evolucionó en algunos todavía pelean por el poder 🤔🤔
Berarti tidak pakai rantai camshaft Ya?
You missed the crazy sleeve valve bike!.
What was the use of driving the cam with those big connecting rods instead of just using a timing chain or belt. Well tooth belt technology might not have been so great back then but certainly timing chains work great. Seems like it would be a lot less energy to run one , too.
The crank and rod design would outlast a chain
Where are the motor we was foold to see???
A gear drive. Can't get any more reliable than that lol
You can't be serious. For a motor that stays below 2500 rpm like a diesel engine they work ok. Not for a high revving motorcycle engine. Come on think this through.
makes you wonder what took them so long to figure out that bicycle chain exists and you can put them in engines
Why all the gears? A chain is far simpler and less back-lash
Gear Drive is the only way to go. All of my Hondas have died when the cam chain would break and destroy the engine in spite of routine maintenance and tightening. A cheap and nasty way of driving a valve chain which is why the Japanese use it it works until the second it doesn't and then it destroys your engine.
my 15yr old bandit 1200 almost hitting 100,000km with original camchain.. all it needs is regular oil changes
What do you mean "Tightening " ? Did you over tension ? I've never heard of a cam chain failing 😳
@@fidelcatsro6948 A friend of mine had a Honda 450 of the late 1960s. It had a crankshaft sprocket formed as part of the shaft itself. Due to wear of this sprocket, his cam chains wore rapidly, and he kept stripping the engine to replace the chain. Eventually he scrapped the bike, as he could not replace or repair this sprocket
بسیار عالی و دیدنی بود 👍👍👍
Salut bre 👌
the gear drives must have been a nightmare to service repair set up and adjust, refitting and shimming one cog can be problematic but that many...
Wow 😀👍🏍️
Face Cams, sure enough! You don't see them so much, maybe in a sewing-machine or a steam engine! Never heard of that brand, looks so mechanical... sounds like a blender full of change! This is an unusually interesting video, for the mechanically minded.
First view
BRITTEN-V1000cc/JOHN KENTON BRITTEN/NEW ZEALAND 🇳🇿
Königswelle!
Honda 250 6 cylinder GP bike ...
Downside:heavy
КПД ещё меньше
That gear whine is...well... ANNOYING
That's a dry case, you can't run something like that
wao cero vibraciones😂
When the drive belt on a Goldwing snaps kiss your motor goodbye same thing for a belt drive Ducati.
yes i wouldnt ever even trust my siamese cat to be driven by a rubber belt!!
I own a 1996 ducati m900. Have owned it since new and have never had a belt break. I have never heard of a gold wing breaking a belt. But then maybe if it was yours it would
Sorry you're going to have to talk if you want me to watch your video
🤘😎🤘
Some Ducati’s have bevel drive
Mine all did. A couple of 250's and a 750. What great bikes.
SLOW DOWN THE INFO WRITING IN THE VIDEO
SOME OF US CAN'T READ LIKE A FLASH OF LIGHTNING KIR CAN REMEMBER WHAT WAS WRITTEN PLEEEEZZZ
DUDE SLOW DWN 👁 ENJOY YOUR CONTENT BUT 👁 DON'T READ FAST
Ah! This is why Ducatis engines dont work for so long as the Japanese.
Its far to complicated ,like Ktm and the Italians electrics dont do them a favor.1🤣🤣
No, the reason that Ducatis don't last is that they use crummy metal. And the electrics are totally pathetic.
👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌👌👌👌👌🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷
Bevel gears in an engine driving the valve train, might be the dumbest I ever seen. Sounds like it's coming apart. wow.
Nobody thought that one through. Them bevels won't last long & give you a headach. Why would any company then fill the whole damn motor with gears? Good god man . Use chains to drive cam's & valve trains. No wonder this company went no where.
The bevel drive Ducatis were quite reliable. They went to belts because it was much cheaper.
👎👎👎dukati