Thank you Cliff, Troy and Dr. Ed for your information and insight. I made the switch a few years ago to heavier arrows and single bevel heads base on Dr. Ed and Troy's information. Shot two bull elk using their recommendations with excellent results. Both shots were total pass through shots, with little reaction to impact by the elk, who then just walked to 50 yards stood and fell over within sight. These results were much different than my results on numerous bulls shot with my older (lighter) setups. Thanks for sharing.
Ed is a national treasure ! Not sure how or when it can be accomplished, but proof that the thresholds of Ed's bone breaking data apply directly to elk, I think would revolutionize how archers approach elk hunting. No longer fearing the shoulder as a no go shot, and aiming for the best chance of hitting the vitals, and getting better lethal results. I fear that without this data, the archery community will continue to see the combination of heavy arrow set ups as the red headed step child of this industry. Great talk gentlemen, the best way to share info is with people who will listen, ask questions, and go down their own archery rabbit holes ! Keep up the good work !
I'm happy to tell you this. I'm doing the Ashby method of tuning on my longbow. Fifty yards is so much fun! I used to be afraid to practice that far. Now I'm going after it
As a new female who is starting the bow hunting journey, listening to as much information out there is very helpful, especially with a short draw weight and low poundage. We mostly have Elk and Mule deer here so I’m gonna need all the help I can get. PS I worked at Barnes Bullets for a few years, I learned a lot there. Thanks for having these discussions.
Do a lot of research and testing your setup. Many an elk has been killed with 40-45# bow draw weight ( if legal where you hunt) with a FIXED BLADE broad head. I suggest not using any mechanical as there’s probably not enough kinetic energy to get it to function. So much information available nowadays on women’s equipment. The most important thing is when you finally get a properly setup rig go shoot all you can. Build up your strength and possibly increase draw weight. Especially way before elk season. Make it part of your lifestyle and learn how to use properly which release you like. Watch “ bow only outdoors “ learning videos on releases. If you will commit to doing what he shows you won’t believe the Control you will have . Being in absolute control is paramount to being a good archer. GOOD LUCK to you in your archery journey!
@ well thanks! I’m shooting 45# now, it’s very easy to draw, I’ve had my bow a month and have put 500 arrows through it already. Super fun, I tried a bunch of releases at the shop and decided to got with a True Ball wrist strap style. I seem to get good groups with it. I’m not going to hunt past 30 YD, but will practice a little farther out.
"As a new female...?" Were you a male before? I figured you meant new to bow hunting, but the way you worded that, in this day and age, it needed sarcasm 😂
@@angelaguimaraes3265 With your light draw weight, I suggest you choose a broadhead with a higher mechanical advantage than the Iron Will. Additionally, try to get your arrow's FOC as high as possible.
Loved hearing Ed's story of how he got into that awesome gig in Africa and then Australia, thanks for including this in the video! While I understand what Cliff is trying to say about the binary thought process and people saying "I couldn't ever break the shoulder so why bother", I really think the bigger resistance to heavy arrows is still just the belief that a flatter trajectory with a light arrow is the bigger priority. They are blissfully ignoring the physics of both penetration, and the rapid drop of that light shaft at distance. With that said, I don't know how you convince them otherwise until they lose some animals and start reflecting on WHY.
Haha. Yeah, if you built it right, you'll have no problem dropping an elk. I heard them in the last podcast saying that the elk threshold for breaking heavy bone and achieving consistent lethality is 650 gr
@@ScottWConvid19 Caveat: That 650-grain weight is with a structurally secure arrow having a broadhead with a mechanical advantage of at least 2.6 or greater. While arrow FOC shows no effect on the arrow's ability to breach a heavy bone, having an EFOC or UEFOC arrow is essential for achieving high post-breaching penetration.
I love the Berger conversation 👍 and Cliff is 100% on how animals react at medium distance, if a high velocity bullet exits an animal it has failed to deliver all of its energy. If it makes it to the inside of the off shoulder then all the energy is in the animal which is why they seem to just get knocked out, which is basically what happens. I have friends that only hunt with high penetration bullets because they Hunt very thick woods and prefer exit holes for blood trailing. I prefer fast expanding bullets for the same reason that cliff states, I Hunt open pasture and can see the animals for a long way so blood trails are not my main priority energy dump is. Thank all of you for the conversation.
The thing missing was a real dude, real hunter, real bowman instead of a fraud. Pretty easy math. Best Video/pod ever on this channel and only 46 comments. ?? I wonder if there is a parallel between everyone I know that favors Berger bullets also favoring large cut diameter broadheads.
Hey Fairy - that movie with the air in the body cavity is "Three Kings" with George Cloney 1999. It think its a great thing to refer your audience back to for the pneumothorax and how air in the body cavity can kill without bleeding. Its not perfectly scientific, but its on the big screen for people to watch.
Actually, all of them. For many years, most "solids" were just full metal jackets. Some had gelding metal jackets, but the best had steel jackets. The monolithic solids are, by far, the best. My preference was monolithic solids with a flat nose. In the days when most solids were nearly all gelding metal jackets over a lead core, most expanding bullets were just a gelding metal jacket with a non-bonded soft lead core, with the lead exposed at the nose. Those soft-nose bullets were notorious for coming apart and failing to penetrate deeply enough on the larger animals, especially in the smaller calibers. The FMJ bullets of the day did perform better on the larger game than contemporary soft point bullets. Long after smokeless powder cartridges using lead-core, gelding metal jackets came along, many of those hunting the largest game continued using their large-bore black powder rifles with their all-lead bullets (an all-lead bullet is also an actual monolithic bullet) because there was little chance of getting the fragmentation bullet failures of the early lead core gelding metal bullets, both soft points and solids. However, "solids" for some of the early smokeless powder cartridges had steel jackets over a lead core, and even though those occasionally bent or riveted, especially in smaller calibers, those failures were far less frequent. These bullets firmly established the "solid" as the bullet of choice among African hunters.
Have you guys ever contemplated doing a performance test on a plain Jane/ run of the mill arrow, of proper spine , and one of the ranch fairy 200 grain single bevel heads ? Basically use the stock aluminum insert. Slap on one of the single bevel head and see how much better the arrow would perform if you were to switch over to that? My theory, if people can see how much better their arrow penetration would be with a single bevel head and they don't have to buy titanium inserts or outserts they might be more willing to try out a two-blade head that would give them pretty good penetration without doing anything over the top.
There are a few problems with that idea. If the arrow is a plain Jane run of the mill arrow, the spine will not likely be stiff enough to straighten out quickly when the energy moves to the front wings and also if the arrow hasn't been insert tuned and nock tuned, the fletches usually work to keep the arrow flying straight to compensate for the arrow not being true, while the shaft is being pulled off target. When you over power the fletches with larger wings on the front, that can receive more of the energy coming from the shaft, you're now allowing the broadhead to be influenced more by the twizzler-like shaft and also when that arrow comes in contact with skin, the direction would likely be diverted. It would be great if there was a way to just make a simple and easy change to show others the benefit of having a heavier, stiffer and straighter arrow, but that really does have to be built intentionally to achieve dramatic results
I think the trajectory question needs to be asked like this. If I have an elk at 45 yards and down the flight path there is a small branch at 25 yards. With my 400 grain set up I know I can make that shot and miss the branch. With a 650+ grain arrow can I still take that shot and not hit the branch? For those that want to quickly bash me, I pulled the scenario and numbers out of my rear. It seems like that's the basis for the trajectory folks
We agree. Depends on where the branch is and how big. You still have to know the trajectory curve. If it's directly in the way, both fly over. If it's 1/3 the way there, heavy arrow clears for sure. (Both probably) If it's 2/3 of the way there. How high is it? Its just not a real practical thing. BUT NO ONE Practices that - not anyone I know. It's total theory. Now I do have a shooting machine...... I have to admit, I am a total sell out that the arrow is the most important part of this. I want it to penetrate with maximum efficiency and the goal is always a pass through. So if we both clear the branch, but plan B happens and we hit the humerus bone or scapula (Both also have ribs behind them) at the elk? What has more potential lethality? That is what I cannot let go. It has to kill the animal, we can both practice trajectory curves.
@@RanchFairyI agree 100% and I'm on board with Plan B. I think that's the gripe or the question people want answered when it comes to the heavy arrow trajectory debate though and we don't do enough to prove for or against it or to answer that question outright. The easy answer is to practice with it and put crap in between you and target and find out. The goal regardless should be to use whatever will ethically kill the animal quickly and to shoot within your skill set. Loved this podcast. So much information and love for outdoor shooting sports tossed back and forth! I will also admit that we could do all the testing in the world to prove for or against and somebody will always disagree just to disagree. Can't please everybody! Any 7 lbers lately?
Are Axis deer now an invasive species in Texas? I imagine they aren't as prevalent as the hogs but it could be another animal, and more similar to a whitetail to test on.
Yes, Axis deer are considered an invasive species in Texas. Originally from India and Nepal, they were introduced to Texas as game animals. Since their introduction, Axis deer have established free-ranging populations and are legally categorized similarly to feral hogs. They compete with native whitetail deer for resources and can cause damage to local ecosystems and agriculture. However, Axis deer are not widely found throughout Texas. Most of the population of Axis deer is found on private land. While a few landowners allow access to selected hunters for free, many consider Axis as a new 'cash crop' for which many hunters are willing to pay to hunt. If we at ABF ever get an opportunity to access numbers of Axis deer, you can rest assured we will be testing on them.
@@jesse4530 To add the math. Axis = $4-$6k per axis buck (generally speaking). The folks that have them are quite happy!! It’s very hard to get a good axis hunt without planning ahead months in advance
Unbelievable what happened to Ed in Africa. Great things and very bad things. It angers me that a government could do that to anyone but it is a crazy world and we cannot count on foreign governments to have our best interest at heart. Even in the U.S.A. God bless America, and thank God the American public is waking up.
It is because the equipment manufacturers are good at selling their products. They push the faster bows and the scary named broadheads with 3" cuts and a large percentage of hunters fall for it. You could pick a varmint bullet that is light for caliber and gain speed with a flatter trajectory but it would perform horribly on big game. Seems really basic to me and I won't go light and fast ever again.
@@jamesmorris4428 You said it! We can run a “trad approved” arrow 230! The fast arrow guys will TELL YOU that heavy’s good for trad but NOT for compounds…..hhhhmmmmmm 🙋♀️
Thank you Cliff, Troy and Dr. Ed for your information and insight. I made the switch a few years ago to heavier arrows and single bevel heads base on Dr. Ed and Troy's information. Shot two bull elk using their recommendations with excellent results. Both shots were total pass through shots, with little reaction to impact by the elk, who then just walked to 50 yards stood and fell over within sight. These results were much different than my results on numerous bulls shot with my older (lighter) setups. Thanks for sharing.
Ed is a national treasure ! Not sure how or when it can be accomplished, but proof that the thresholds of Ed's bone breaking data apply directly to elk, I think would revolutionize how archers approach elk hunting. No longer fearing the shoulder as a no go shot, and aiming for the best chance of hitting the vitals, and getting better lethal results. I fear that without this data, the archery community will continue to see the combination of heavy arrow set ups as the red headed step child of this industry. Great talk gentlemen, the best way to share info is with people who will listen, ask questions, and go down their own archery rabbit holes ! Keep up the good work !
Thanks Cliff!!
Hey just a thought. If you wanna see the adult arrows in action, take Troy on a guided elk hunt!!!!!😁👍
This is one of the best podcast that you’ve done Troy
Easily. Good stuff
I'm happy to tell you this. I'm doing the Ashby method of tuning on my longbow. Fifty yards is so much fun! I used to be afraid to practice that far. Now I'm going after it
As a new female who is starting the bow hunting journey, listening to as much information out there is very helpful, especially with a short draw weight and low poundage. We mostly have Elk and Mule deer here so I’m gonna need all the help I can get. PS I worked at Barnes Bullets for a few years, I learned a lot there. Thanks for having these discussions.
Do a lot of research and testing your setup. Many an elk has been killed with 40-45# bow draw weight ( if legal where you hunt) with a FIXED BLADE broad head. I suggest not using any mechanical as there’s probably not enough kinetic energy to get it to function. So much information available nowadays on women’s equipment. The most important thing is when you finally get a properly setup rig go shoot all you can. Build up your strength and possibly increase draw weight. Especially way before elk season. Make it part of your lifestyle and learn how to use properly which release you like. Watch “ bow only outdoors “ learning videos on releases. If you will commit to doing what he shows you won’t believe the Control you will have . Being in absolute control is paramount to being a good archer. GOOD LUCK to you in your archery journey!
@ well thanks! I’m shooting 45# now, it’s very easy to draw, I’ve had my bow a month and have put 500 arrows through it already. Super fun, I tried a bunch of releases at the shop and decided to got with a True Ball wrist strap style. I seem to get good groups with it. I’m not going to hunt past 30 YD, but will practice a little farther out.
@@timbow50 also I was planning on using iron will single bevel or the magnus single bevel. Depending on my finances. Haha
"As a new female...?" Were you a male before?
I figured you meant new to bow hunting, but the way you worded that, in this day and age, it needed sarcasm 😂
@@angelaguimaraes3265 With your light draw weight, I suggest you choose a broadhead with a higher mechanical advantage than the Iron Will. Additionally, try to get your arrow's FOC as high as possible.
Loved hearing Ed's story of how he got into that awesome gig in Africa and then Australia, thanks for including this in the video! While I understand what Cliff is trying to say about the binary thought process and people saying "I couldn't ever break the shoulder so why bother", I really think the bigger resistance to heavy arrows is still just the belief that a flatter trajectory with a light arrow is the bigger priority. They are blissfully ignoring the physics of both penetration, and the rapid drop of that light shaft at distance. With that said, I don't know how you convince them otherwise until they lose some animals and start reflecting on WHY.
Thank you Dr Ed and All Excellent podcast. Love it
Great information, gentlemen. Let the fun begin!
I don't know what my 920 grain arrow going 213 fps will do on an Elk, but I know what it does on Whitetail quartering towards.
Haha. Yeah, if you built it right, you'll have no problem dropping an elk. I heard them in the last podcast saying that the elk threshold for breaking heavy bone and achieving consistent lethality is 650 gr
@@ScottWConvid19 Caveat: That 650-grain weight is with a structurally secure arrow having a broadhead with a mechanical advantage of at least 2.6 or greater. While arrow FOC shows no effect on the arrow's ability to breach a heavy bone, having an EFOC or UEFOC arrow is essential for achieving high post-breaching penetration.
@@OldDerelict Thanks Ed!
@@ScottWConvid19 You are most welcome.
Wasn't real sure going in, but ended up really enjoying this.
I love the Berger conversation 👍 and Cliff is 100% on how animals react at medium distance, if a high velocity bullet exits an animal it has failed to deliver all of its energy. If it makes it to the inside of the off shoulder then all the energy is in the animal which is why they seem to just get knocked out, which is basically what happens. I have friends that only hunt with high penetration bullets because they Hunt very thick woods and prefer exit holes for blood trailing. I prefer fast expanding bullets for the same reason that cliff states, I Hunt open pasture and can see the animals for a long way so blood trails are not my main priority energy dump is. Thank all of you for the conversation.
As far as seeing the arrow performance on elk you can look at the hunting public and see some cool stuff on their channel.
The thing missing was a real dude, real hunter, real bowman instead of a fraud. Pretty easy math.
Best Video/pod ever on this channel and only 46 comments. ??
I wonder if there is a parallel between everyone I know that favors Berger bullets also favoring large cut diameter broadheads.
I like the performance of Berger and the older amax on deer
Troy perhaps mentioning that often a surgeon will remove one lung and the person recovers and does well with one lung.
Ballistic tips are not hunting bullets. Had one splash on a deers shoulder. Tracked him 800 yards, saw him going over the dike and soon a shot.
Ballistic tip is a lung shot or neck shot bullet, not a shoulder bullet.
You dont use a flat tip on a phillips, bullets are the same way.
1:41:03 the movie is Three Kings 😜
Hey Fairy - that movie with the air in the body cavity is "Three Kings" with George Cloney 1999. It think its a great thing to refer your audience back to for the pneumothorax and how air in the body cavity can kill without bleeding. Its not perfectly scientific, but its on the big screen for people to watch.
When y’all are talking about solid bullets… is that a solid lead non copper jacketed or a full metal jacket type?
Actually, all of them. For many years, most "solids" were just full metal jackets. Some had gelding metal jackets, but the best had steel jackets. The monolithic solids are, by far, the best. My preference was monolithic solids with a flat nose.
In the days when most solids were nearly all gelding metal jackets over a lead core, most expanding bullets were just a gelding metal jacket with a non-bonded soft lead core, with the lead exposed at the nose. Those soft-nose bullets were notorious for coming apart and failing to penetrate deeply enough on the larger animals, especially in the smaller calibers. The FMJ bullets of the day did perform better on the larger game than contemporary soft point bullets.
Long after smokeless powder cartridges using lead-core, gelding metal jackets came along, many of those hunting the largest game continued using their large-bore black powder rifles with their all-lead bullets (an all-lead bullet is also an actual monolithic bullet) because there was little chance of getting the fragmentation bullet failures of the early lead core gelding metal bullets, both soft points and solids.
However, "solids" for some of the early smokeless powder cartridges had steel jackets over a lead core, and even though those occasionally bent or riveted, especially in smaller calibers, those failures were far less frequent. These bullets firmly established the "solid" as the bullet of choice among African hunters.
@ thank you sir
@@michaelhankins2237 You are most welcome.
Have you guys ever contemplated doing a performance test on a plain Jane/ run of the mill arrow, of proper spine , and one of the ranch fairy 200 grain single bevel heads ? Basically use the stock aluminum insert. Slap on one of the single bevel head and see how much better the arrow would perform if you were to switch over to that?
My theory, if people can see how much better their arrow penetration would be with a single bevel head and they don't have to buy titanium inserts or outserts they might be more willing to try out a two-blade head that would give them pretty good penetration without doing anything over the top.
There are a few problems with that idea. If the arrow is a plain Jane run of the mill arrow, the spine will not likely be stiff enough to straighten out quickly when the energy moves to the front wings and also if the arrow hasn't been insert tuned and nock tuned, the fletches usually work to keep the arrow flying straight to compensate for the arrow not being true, while the shaft is being pulled off target. When you over power the fletches with larger wings on the front, that can receive more of the energy coming from the shaft, you're now allowing the broadhead to be influenced more by the twizzler-like shaft and also when that arrow comes in contact with skin, the direction would likely be diverted.
It would be great if there was a way to just make a simple and easy change to show others the benefit of having a heavier, stiffer and straighter arrow, but that really does have to be built intentionally to achieve dramatic results
check them out..Ishi, Pope, and Young: The History of Modern Bowhunting
Are the butcher a unicorn shirts still available?
I love y’all and all y’all do!👍🥰🤗
Merry Christmas 🎄🎁 and Happy New Year 🎆🎊🎈
God Bless Y’all and Your Families 🙏😇🇺🇸❤️
I think the trajectory question needs to be asked like this. If I have an elk at 45 yards and down the flight path there is a small branch at 25 yards. With my 400 grain set up I know I can make that shot and miss the branch. With a 650+ grain arrow can I still take that shot and not hit the branch? For those that want to quickly bash me, I pulled the scenario and numbers out of my rear. It seems like that's the basis for the trajectory folks
We agree. Depends on where the branch is and how big. You still have to know the trajectory curve. If it's directly in the way, both fly over.
If it's 1/3 the way there, heavy arrow clears for sure. (Both probably)
If it's 2/3 of the way there. How high is it?
Its just not a real practical thing.
BUT NO ONE Practices that - not anyone I know. It's total theory. Now I do have a shooting machine......
I have to admit, I am a total sell out that the arrow is the most important part of this. I want it to penetrate with maximum efficiency and the goal is always a pass through. So if we both clear the branch, but plan B happens and we hit the humerus bone or scapula (Both also have ribs behind them) at the elk? What has more potential lethality? That is what I cannot let go. It has to kill the animal, we can both practice trajectory curves.
@@RanchFairyI agree 100% and I'm on board with Plan B. I think that's the gripe or the question people want answered when it comes to the heavy arrow trajectory debate though and we don't do enough to prove for or against it or to answer that question outright. The easy answer is to practice with it and put crap in between you and target and find out. The goal regardless should be to use whatever will ethically kill the animal quickly and to shoot within your skill set. Loved this podcast. So much information and love for outdoor shooting sports tossed back and forth!
I will also admit that we could do all the testing in the world to prove for or against and somebody will always disagree just to disagree. Can't please everybody! Any 7 lbers lately?
Are Axis deer now an invasive species in Texas? I imagine they aren't as prevalent as the hogs but it could be another animal, and more similar to a whitetail to test on.
Yes, Axis deer are considered an invasive species in Texas. Originally from India and Nepal, they were introduced to Texas as game animals. Since their introduction, Axis deer have established free-ranging populations and are legally categorized similarly to feral hogs. They compete with native whitetail deer for resources and can cause damage to local ecosystems and agriculture.
However, Axis deer are not widely found throughout Texas. Most of the population of Axis deer is found on private land. While a few landowners allow access to selected hunters for free, many consider Axis as a new 'cash crop' for which many hunters are willing to pay to hunt. If we at ABF ever get an opportunity to access numbers of Axis deer, you can rest assured we will be testing on them.
@@jesse4530
To add the math. Axis = $4-$6k per axis buck (generally speaking). The folks that have them are quite happy!! It’s very hard to get a good axis hunt without planning ahead months in advance
Ohhh yeahhhh
Unbelievable what happened to Ed in Africa. Great things and very bad things. It angers me that a government could do that to anyone but it is a crazy world and we cannot count on foreign governments to have our best interest at heart. Even in the U.S.A. God bless America, and thank God the American public is waking up.
Trad hunters shoot slow and heavy, and kill elk. Why does having a bow that shoots 340 not allow you to shoot slow and still be effective?
It is because the equipment manufacturers are good at selling their products. They push the faster bows and the scary named broadheads with 3" cuts and a large percentage of hunters fall for it. You could pick a varmint bullet that is light for caliber and gain speed with a flatter trajectory but it would perform horribly on big game. Seems really basic to me and I won't go light and fast ever again.
@@jamesmorris4428
You said it! We can run a “trad approved” arrow 230! The fast arrow guys will TELL YOU that heavy’s good for trad but NOT for compounds…..hhhhmmmmmm
🙋♀️
If you say "I shot 2 rhino shut your face" five times fast it sounds like...."Have you ever killed an elk troy?"😂
@@NODAK-x9x
Have you killed a cape buff or rhino?
💪🏽🇺🇸🏹
Soon as this guy said he liked Berger bullets I knew he was ignorant.