Responding To Culture Of Honor
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Today we are taking a look at the popular charismatic book "Culture of Honor" By Danny Silk. In this book, Danny gives the "secret sauce" to Bethel's success. He claims that honoring individuals for who God has called them to be has been the foundation for the success of the movement.
However, after reading "culture of honor" we found It to be more of a charismatic ecclesiological playbook. A playbook that frankly dishonors the gifts of the Spirit that God has established In his church.
Honestly, a big part of me does not want to respond to this book. I think Danny Silk is trying to respond to an unhealthy imbalance of spiritual gifts, and he is trying to solve a real problem in the body of Christ. Unfortunately, he is overcorrecting and erroring in the opposite direction. I fear that videos like this make us look unnecessarily combative. Nevertheless, I have been told by multiple Charismatic leaders that this book is the epicenter of the toxic Charismatic culture we are seeing everywhere. So, in this video, we will be spending most of our time responding to the claims Danny made in Chapter 2. Hopefully, we can engage with Danny's teachings without mincing words or pulling punches while still Honoring the man who has made such positive Impacts In the body of Christ.
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Did 3 years at Bethel - the culture is strongly anti-dissent. In my interview for 2nd year, the interviewer asked me if there was anything about the program I thought needed changing. I told him yes, that the curriculum was confusing, and that in their zeal to allow lots of novel teachings we actually ended up receiving no clear instruction at all. If teachings outright contradict each other, then something we are being taught is error, and we weren't being taught accurately from the scriptures which was true and which was error. The interviewer was so angry with my response, he was red in the face and became aggressive with me, demanding to know if I thought I could do better, and why I was there at all. He declined me entry to the 2nd year of the program! My pastor had to go to bat for me, and apologize to the higher ups by saying "Don't ask her what she thinks unless you want the answer." So I just barely got in. The interviewer was given a free pass for his behaviour towards me, and continued to be promoted within the culture. That was actually one of the events that spurred me to question even more. I loved it there sometimes, and sometimes just felt extremely out of place.
I don’t understand why you went back and why your pastor “went to bat” for you. It sounds like you discerned rightly but then compromised w/truth!
That’s so disappointing to hear.😞
You have to ask yourself did they privately talk with this interviewer about his reactions towards you. And why did they allow you into the program and overrule this interviewer? It looks like the leadership at Bethel school is supernatural did not have any problems with you. And your questions. I would ask did you come across any other situations where you felt like things were not explaining correctly or you felt that they were contradictory streams of thought or teachings
This episode merits a new t-shirt: “All Gifts Matter”
Duddddeeee, thank you guys. We are now a family of five who has been so severely spiritually abused by this culture of honor stuff. Seriously you have helped mitigate the pain. People don’t understand the depths of pain and mental insanity this doctrines fruit has done in the hands of some of the churches. Praying for full healing and deliverance for those affected.
“Culture of honor” - the new term for Heavy Shepherding.
I attended Bethel for one year and the "culture of honor" was the most unhealthy cultic culture imaginable.
This came out of the Shepherding/Restoration movements which came out of the Latter Rain. Not good too excessive. Honoring each other aa brothers and sisters is what I thought it was about when I first started reading it. Read half of it and could not continue. All sorts of triggers began popping up. We were shunned because we wanted to move to another town for a better job. Its not fun being shunned when you live on an island. There is more stuff but that was a long time ago. Early 1980s. Still recovering. Our kids now in their 40s are just beginning to process what they experienced.
In my training John Bevere's Undercover and Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority were two books used to prop up the same bad practices with the groups I ran with at the time. No critical thinking, no questions, no problems, no challenging ideas are allowed. All in the name of church growth proofs, and touch not the anointed leaders. Sad times.
The "submit to the vision", "die in the soil", false promises of future roles, at 50 minutes. Wanted to cry that hit so close to home and my experiences.
I know this video is like a year old but man, can’t say how thankful I am for my own personal journey away from all things Bethel related. I was a pretty naive new believer from a non-Christian home who had a very scarce biblical awareness when I became connected to them. As a professional Christian musician I was asked to perform at tons of Bethel regional events and eventually ended up in their school around 2015. Find yourself a reasonably reformed church and follow Christ y’all. Not this wacky non-sense they sling in every “next best thing” book. Also shout out to Michael Miller, I think we actually met while I was touring for Josh Garrels. Super nice guy!
Guys this is totally off topic but I pray you see this. Please keep Torben Sondergard in your prayers! He has been locked up in a prison in Florida for 98 days on false accusations! This is serious persecution. Pray for a miracle.
The “culture of honor” is a throwback to the shepherding movement. It stinks.
Loved this episode! In response to 4C quote… we were leaders at a church where the Sr. Pastor (and apostle) and his wife were spiritually abusing people. We went to the leader of the main church (where we had been sent out from) and tried to honorably share what was going on. He said to us that this leader and his wife were more heavenly minded and “up there” and weren’t really that good with people. Mind blown. Needless to say, though we, and others, appealed to the leaders at the main church for help, we were given none and were kicked out and slandered publicly. All of this was done in and for a culture of honor. I had read the book before but it took on a whole new life when I read it after this experience! So glad you are talking about this!
I’ve received great healing through this channel! Thank you all for being great stewards of what God has entrusted you guys with!!
The old and new testaments were written in an honor / shame culture. These cultures still exist in Asian and middle eastern cultures today. You can’t talk about a culture of honor without talking about shame.
Thank you, guys, for what you do. You guys are ALWAYS very charitable and respectful and always seek unity, but not at the cost of compromising Truth. Yes, the passion for Biblical truth came through, and I applaud your self-control. The Body of Christ must be aware of errors to avoid, what scripture teaches, and how to handle these sticky situations. Blessings!
Miller needs his own podcast. I get so much from what he has to say. He's more quiet than the other two so I feel he gets overshadowed. I'm a subscriber here, regular watcher, but I'd watch Michael Miller if he had his own podcast too.
Yes, I agree 💯 ! I feel as if Miller is overshadowed as well. I wish he would speak more as he is so knowledgeable in the Word and has great insights. His practical examples of his own experiences in ministry make the teaching more relatable. I'd watch if he had his own podcast as well 😊.
I like what y'all are doing. It is so needed. This is my one critique after watching many of your videos: State the facts and leave out the emotional overreaction. It's true enough without the extra hubaloo and the bluster makes y'all look just as reactive and untrustworthy as the people you are critiquing. It also borders on the deceitfulness of pride. We all have deception in our lives, which I know you know, so just a reminder to approach every single critique with gentleness and respect, which I think you do, mostly, but there is room for improvement. God Bless
Whatttttt???? I dig the classic Rowntree heated moment, you can feel the zealousness, throw out that and you throw out some gold, my friend.
I second this critique. In my opinion, I would add this video came across pretty arrogant.
Yeah BUT is it a spirit of arrogance, or is it just frustration with people needlessly causing others pain specifically thru culture of honor?
I didn’t see any hullabaloo or bluster. 😉 Thought they were respectful and communicated their concerns intelligently and without demeaning Danny Silk. (I also don’t believe that being stoic is a sign of maturity. God created us with emotions and showing some emotion about something like this is appropriate)
After listening in Live and then listening to it again as well as reading this book twice as a Bethel Cleveland BSSM graduate in 2019, here are a few take aways:
1) One of the main goals of Culture of Honor is to introduce a NEW Ecclesiology.
2) This goal is to "Reform" the current church model to put Apostles at the top tier.
3) This is why there is a strong belief we need to categorize this new Ecclesiology as an "Apostolic Reformation".
So, we can conclude form the book that Bethel is indeed attempting to create a "NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION"
Therefore we can get rid of the idea that this is a conspiracy and read in their own words. They want Apostles at the top.
Thank you so much for this. I would love to see a review his other book “unpunishable”? We’re going through it at our church and much of it doesn’t sit well in my heart. I would like an honest perspective from someone who isn’t emotionally attached to the author.
Thank you and God bless you guys!
“You don’t value teachers and that why you don’t know that.”🔥🔥🔥
Wow
That part when Michael said a pastor who dishonors his marriage should never see a stage again! 👏🏽🔥🔥🔥👏🏽🔥🔥🔥👏🏽💯💯
Where is that in the Bible? We should use the Bible’s authority right??? That’s what they said over and over in the episode,
@@spn2240 he specifically said it's his opinion, but to be quite honest you could make an argument for it on the basis of a pastor needing to be "above reproach", and reinstalling a pastor who was unfaithful to his wife can be said to indeed bring reproach
....the leader should be the servant... The need to be a servant is what I don't hear or see in the "recipe" as it has been presented so far. I will be eagerly waiting for the continuation of this! GOD bless you guys in the name of ✝Jesus Christ/Yeshua Ha Mashiach✝
Thank-you for this! So needed.
Just a conversation and very valuable perspectives here.
Appreciate your passion ...and your courage! to challenge some ideas that I also believe are quite problematic.
And thank you also for honoring them as brothers and sisters in Christ.
I have some experiences that also line up, but unfortunately they are on the negative side of folks who buy those ideas.
Also, it has been quite concerning to me how some people seem to buy everything without actually thinking it through and evaluating it.
"Experience is more important than knowledge" is also the motto of the Woke ideology and I didn't realize it until I watched this video. Thank you so much for this video. Signed, someone who was deeply wounded by the church and was shunned because the leaders "didn't want to contribute to the rumor mill." This was before this book came out, but the whole "discipline in private" as a way of "honor" hurts victims and protects perpetrators.
Always charitable and challenging discussion here on Remnant Radio! Looking forward to part 2!
Joshua it sounds like you’re accusing a Bethel of adding scripture. Are you guys getting hung up on the term New when it could be really referred to as a fresh way of looking at something seeing something from a different facet that has not been looked at before or has been forgotten and notbeen practice in the church for a very long time. For example why did the church stop having apostles and prophets as part of the fivefold ministry. Why are so many churches today only recognizing three of them.?
You gotta hand it to the first Crusaders. They footed it to the Levant, and put fear into the hearts of Turks who had not previously known fear. But ultimately, it failed and led to irreparable harm between the Eastern and Western Church. They almost took back all those places you read about in Revelation.
Honor is mighty close to madness.
For one, you gotta have an administrative endgame.
The best modern treatment of biblical ecclesiology remains Alex Strauch's Biblical Eldership. One of the core tenants of NT church leadership is that no one man is in charge. Furthermore there's no need for "vision casting.' The Lord already has given us our marching orders.
Francis Chan went to the whole church over a leaders sin. It was powerful.
Do you know the name of the sermon or is there a video on the RUclips? I would love to hear more, I like him.
Actually, I read underneath the whole "we prefer apostles and prophets over teachers" a response to the whole "Strange fire"/McArthur/Theobros criticizing without actually growing or reaching people.
Samuel Espinosa - this is exactly how I read it.
The founding pastor of my church has an apostlic gifting and has started a total of 10 churches in our region and raised up the pastors...but he in no way rules over the churches or has an authoritative say. He is on each church board since he is the spiritual leadership/accountability for the pastors, but he has no veto power. He believes the churches are elder led at the local level by the pastor.
We need more balance in these things in the church! And maybe it's a surprise to many, but this man is also part of the WOF camp and attended RHEMA (Hagins school) in the 80s but he has a balanced message. The WOF is for speaking the things God desires regarding his kingdom, not just for what we want for ourselves personally.
This was very beneficial, gentlemen. Thank you for your discernment.
29:27 I feel like James 5:16 is a missing element of the Body of Christ today. I stayed "sick" in a 40 year addiction to pornography and illicit relationships and was not "healed" (delivered) until I repented and confessed my sin. I lost so much to arrogance and fear of shame. I wish the Word was just taken at face value. My fear is if the James 5:16's of the Word of God are not applied at face value then individuals are being set in another atmosphere that allows situations like Mike Bickle's to occur and bring about greater hurts.
wait a minute didn't they give heed to the Apostles TEACHING?? hence a teacher
Thank you guys for continuing to talk about content like this. I will always tune in because I think charismatic content is very important to discuss in nuance and flesh out without simply polarizing extremes and targeting “low hanging fruit.”
I know firsthand apostolic abuses unfortunately exist and affect so many people in apostolic churches today. This is why speaking about the five fold is so important. I really wish Danny was able to share but I know you all tried your best ; )
I hope there will be more episodes on the “culture of honor” because it is so widespread and also so nuanced from church to church. I will offer some pushback however. First, I would like to have heard more details on how this culture is practiced in church leadership and hear from others who saw this happen or experienced (Thank you Miller for sharing again, hope to hear more). Second, Could we hear from other apostles and their views or experiences? Or other pastors who worked with apostles? Are there other written or video sources to pull from please? It just seemed a very small view in sourcing what I believe to be a very nuanced church culture in practice and region. And yes, I do believe that the wording in the book could be a whole lot better to avoid the appearance of hierarchy, favoritism, and exclusion. Should be revised yet again. Third, Please ask Jonathan Welton. He has first hand experience with Danny and major growth. Great stuff as always!
Yes, Welton did have a falling out from his school and ministry, but he has been restored and even coaching other men especially from the things he learned. You can read about his “correction” process in the Silk book, Unpunishable. He actually shares very openly about his journey on his podcast. I think it would actually present another perspective from the model of correction outlined in the book. Yes they could invite him or at least quote from him since they are talking about Silk and Bethels practices so much.
Yeah he was sleeping w/ female staff members if I recall correctly so that would be beyond what Jones did for example. They quoted throughout the whole program from silks book so it'd be hard for them to misrepresent much w/ so many direct quotes; the more quotes they cite the less likely or probable for a misunderstanding to happen so thats good. These guys write so many book$ that its hard for anyone to have the time to parse through all of it. Hope his repentance sicks-realizing its not worth going to hell over is what did and is doing the trick for me-mt5:28-30/Rev2:10,3:5,2:14-16,20-23,21:7-8,21,22:11-15-thx for the info
I would again recommend actually listening to Welton’s podcast first to get further details from his own lips. He is very honest and transparent about it. They have talked about other books before and that is fine. I was just hoping to have more “pushback” from their opinion to make it less of an echo chamber. It is their channel and I support and love their content and hope that they provide more constructive and positive feedback in other topics in the book besides just the five fold ministry. That is what was largely shared on a whole hour episode. I believe they will and look forward to it. Peace to you.
Some of the quotes about teachers from the book sound like the spiritual equivalent of “the only way we’ll lose is if the other side cheats.” It stacks the deck so it’s “heads I win, tails you lose.”
agreed
I think the Bible is clear in Matthew 18:15 that when you are able to help a brother in sin, than the matter ends there between you two. Church only gets involved when the person isn’t repenting. 1 Tim 5:20 comes into effect when the church has to be involved because the person isn’t repenting. Bible even says “As for those who PERSIST in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all” (ESV). I’m with Bethel on this, I think they’re more scriptural in their handling since they say they would tell the church if the person persists in sin
The Culture of Honor implemented creates a system where the church really can't get involved. Change can only happen at the top with the apostle and if that apostle is unrepentant then there is nothing to be done.
@@michaelmiller5024 that might be true but we should not also bypass scripture as response. The fear being instilled in 1Tim5 is for the congregation to see what happens when you’re an unrepentant leader. Bible allows (and possibly prefers) for issues to be dealt with privately. There just isn’t scripture (that I am aware of) that supports dealing with adultery publicly and other sins privately. This isn’t to diminish the severity of the sin though
@@mnelisiI'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with that system.
I actually own the DVDs they made from this book. I actually didn't know it was a book 😂😂 I thought it was just a teaching they did at Bethel Church!
We were going to teach the DVDs in our Youth group, but I only made it through one session on disc one. I txt my husband (who was out of town so I was reviewing the lessons for him) "babe I'm not sure this is what we thought it was". We ended up only watching them ourselves & showing the "core" older kids who were interested in apologetic type stuff. We know of Danny Silk because of the "Love & Logic" "biblical parenting", we thought Culture of Honor was going to be the "Adult Version" of Love & Logic...boy were we wrong!!....this was 5-10 yrs ago BTW! 😂
and what about people in the body of Christ is introverted people, what gifts does the author catharize those believers if he believes that a teacher is a C rating
Here is what I have been able to discern that church government should look like. This is my opinion and I do believe it's scriptural.
When the apostle "missionary" starts a new church he would appoint a board of elders. This board might include the apostle as an elder as long as he is there preaching and leading the church. But when he leaves that position would file to someone else. Elders should consist of preachers teachers, spiritual men and women gifted with prophecy and healing. These men would be equal as I believe in a plurality of elders. No head elder.
I believe deacons should be appointed voted on chosen by The church body. Deacons are not maintenance, men and women. They are not parking lot attendants. They are there to collect, distribute and Shepherd the financial aspects of the church as well as preach and teach and evangelize as we see Steven doing.
I believe the leadership of the church has an incredible responsibility to the body and that after a period of time, elders would be chosen by the board of elders and approved by the body.
I was exited when I saw Danny Silk in the thumbnail, but sad when I saw what book was the subject. His book "keep your love on" is one of my favourites and has helped me massively. When he would come to the show, you should talk about that one, because I think it is solid and helpful.
But I didn't get much from "Culture of Honor". I was a little bit confused that there should be a "demonizing of teachers" or similar in the book, because I didn't see that when I read it. But maybe I'm wrong or other people demonized teachers based on that book.
However, I agree that this type of culture, where teachers are trumped out by "prophets" and where teaching is nothing "spiritual" is deadly for the body of christ. Because the spirit is the one, that teaches us the word.
All I can say: Thank you for doing this.🙏
Would not the 5 fold ministry in equipping the saints be involved or participation in honoring Jesus Prayer to the Father that His premise would be bringing the Fathers Kingdom to earth?
Jesus is my Apostle
“Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;”
Jesus made it abundantly clear and concise. In 3 of the 4 gospels Jesus absolutely forbade his disciples, apostles, followers to exercise authority over each other.
He said the unbelieving, natural world functions on hierarchical authority. "It shall not be so among you. The greatest among you will be as the least and the servant of all."
People use 1 Cor 12, Eph4 Heb 13 and other passages to build hierarchical systems that nullify Jesus' clear commands.
So to condemn one form of hierarchical authority and promote another is the same transgression.
They love to honor each other, speaking of religious …. I saw the abuse this book, and those in my charismatic pool took this book , and abused with it ,Puffed up , I'm a mental Health counselor, this is copied from Humanistic reasoning , Mental health , learned this on Humanistic college
Hey Roundtree could be that Paul when he talks about elders he’s talking about the fivefold ministry. They are the elders of the church. And we shouldn’t just interpret it as being a pastor. And shouldn’t we also just see it as referring to anyone of the fivefold ministry positions
Felt like half of the arguments against the book was about how it's communicated rather then the practices, the other half were more of theological and practical counter arguments.
There's another recipe in Luke that I'm reminded of
“Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. "
I really needed this.
Wait a minute Roundtree! You just subscribed the early church in act chapter 4.Then you reinterpreted. For example you you said they were generous people. When it says that the people who own land and building sold them and brought the money and laid it at the feed of the apostles and there was no need among them. I have friends who have lived in a Christian commune, Jesus people USA. It was started in the mid 70s. Some of you might know of the group called Rez Band . People who join this group bringing give all their possessions to the group to live there and work in community together. Why are not all churches doing this today? Having all things common and living in community?
How about Bob Sorge's book, Loyalty, which goes pretty close with Dany Silk's. Or could it be that you guys are too close to the movement?
But the apostles were the primary leaders of the original church, so that seems to show hierarchy.
Really enjoying your discussions! Not sure where to suggest a new discussion topic or to enquire whether a particular topic has been covered before. Wondering whether you could discuss Disciple Making Movements (DMM) and the use of Discovery Bible Study (DBS) methodology to multiply movements.
Great Discussion. Gawrsh I appreciate you fellas and your (biblical) approach!!
You don’t believe that Bethel believes in a balance understanding of scripture and experiences of what takes place in the spiritual realm. There are people in groups out there that are all about experiences and not being balanced with the word of God. Bill Johnson points this out in his book When heaven invades earth. Talking about people in the past who started out great and ended up terrible. Because they began to believe in their own experiences over what the word of God was teaching. I believe if I remember he talked about AA Allan who was very anointed of God but he had little Training in the Bible he could hardly read. I forget who was his sidekick for lack of a better term who actually would help him with understanding what he was seeing and receiving from the Lord about things. How is found in the scriptures.
Apostles the highest???? Paul said im the least among the apostles
Hi, the core apostolic anointing is the breaker anointing. It breaks through obstacles & brings the church into greater a manifestation of Gods presence. Micah 2:13 In regards to hierarchy I beleive scripture supports equality within the body with Jesus as the head.. Elders (Mature beleivers) oversee the church which may include an Apostle & other 5 fold servants but they all see themselves as equal submitting to one another in love. (No top down authority) The Holy Spirit directs the gathering. Church decisions are made by the Holy Spirit & confirmed by atleast 2 to 3 elders. Could be wrong but that's how I'm seeing scripture.
As a part of an Evangelical free church- would the “higher ups” of the organization fit into that Apostleship role?
What do they call Paul if not a teacher? Shoot, what do you think Jesus was doing? He was preaching and teaching everywhere He went! A major part of being Apostles in the Bible was the ability to teach. This is so odd and dangerous
Miller has nailed it.
I remember being in a room where John Paul Jackson was speaking on something and having a Q&A. Someone brought up this book to him and asked what he thought about it.... I don't remember the EXACT quote he gave, but the way I remember it was one word: "Trouble". I'm definitely not one of those who curses everything Bethel does, but there's something fishy that seems to inevitably creep out of this hierarchical 'apostle -> prophet ->' crap. If nothing else, it's such an easy route to corruption.
Josh Lewis: "Hold me back!"
You forgot to add "take my coat!"
😂😂😂
Tell everyone the answers are in God's Holy Word . Who is anyone Christian trying to please? If we dont walk in His Word we wont be in Heaven.
Joshua the term bringing heaven to earth is from Bill Johnson’s book when heaven invades earth. I believe this was his first book. And the whole ministry there is built on the fact that they will be done here on earth as it is in heaven. Is not bringing heaven to earth. though the book is not emphasizing what you say is teaching hit they have people teaching what they’re hearing and seeing and interpreting from scriptures.
I’ve heard Miller’s testimony about what happened at another church she used to be in leadership with. My question is this is you say that you shouldn’t question what the pastor were leadership is saying to others? If we go around saying why I think this pastor is wrong and such as such and such and such. That’s going to create some division. In honor in our leadership we should go to them first and say hey I don’t agree with this I think what you’re teaching is wrong. And here’s why. And if he is unwilling to listen to you then you have a problem with leadership. Are we just confusing giving honor to our leaders who are in authority over us. with understanding what true leadership with authority looks like and what a dictatorial one looks like.
When you say that in this book and or Bethel teaches that people who teach the Bible or not important or interpret the Bible or not important. Is something that maybe you really need to ask them to clarify what they mean. Because let’s face it, there are christians and Jewish scholars who can “Scriptures backwards and forward. And can give you every nuance as what they believe a scripture could be saying. And it’s only based on their human ability or their intellectual ability to understand what is being written. And still be devoid of what Scriptures are really saying. We can look at the life of Paul before he was converted he was like the people I mentioned above. He knew all about the Scriptures but he did not know the one or the spirit who wrote the scriptures. Paul writes in the second chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians. About how he would no longer use the wisdom of men or eloquence speech to try to convert people. But rather he would preach Jesus Christ and him only in the power and demonstration of the holy spirit. He goes on to say that the natural mind cannot understand the things of God. It’s been a while since I’ve read a really listen to Bill Johnson. But in the early 2000s when I’ve heard him speak at my church that I used to go to. he was after learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s interpretation and illumination of scriptures. We could equate what Danny is talking about here With the recent recent debates between charismatics and cessationists.
Again are you guys confusing the natural abilities of people to teach and to lead with the supernatural. That Danny is trying to point out here
Roundtree what dose Danny and Bethel mean by bringing heaven to earth. Go back and read Bill Johnson’s book when heaven invades earth. It’s based on the our father. Our father who art in heaven be thy thy kingdom come thy will be on earth as it is in heaven. That’s what they are talking about. And how do you go about doing that.
Roundtree is incorrect in his understanding of what Danny and Bethel mean by bringing heaven to earth. Go back and read Bill Johnson’s book when heaven invades earth. It’s based on the our father. Our father who art in heaven be thy thy kingdom come thy will be on earth as it is in heaven. That’s what they are talking about. And how do you go about doing that.
Just curious, will you plan to invite Danny Silk onto your show to actually let him speak for himself about your criticisms?
We have many times
Sometimes you confuse me. You can do a show like this and then support Mike Bickle. Ugh!
I’ve definitely had this book weaponized against me.
kenneth s wuest, professor emeritus of new testament greek at the moody bible institute of chicago must be wrong then. " the construction of the greek does not allow us to speak of pastors and teachers as two individuals here. the 2 designations refer to a pastor who has also the gift of teaching. the 2 gifts go together in the divine economy." so therefore "and he himself gave the apostles, and the prophets, and the evangelists, and the teaching pastors, for the equipping of the saints." ... just think if that is the correct interpretation? imagine if no 5 fold ministry exists. ?
You guys seem to have a lot of questions questions and you’re trying to interpret what the guy is saying. Without bringing the person onto your show. I think it’s always best to have that person so you can discuss what’s being said. I don’t know if he’s available or not. I see the importance of this discussion that you’re having without him. Because there are people who seemly they’re taking his book and treating it as gospel and how they do leadership in a church. I remember when you had Michael Heisler who is now passed away on your show a couple times. I’ve always had problems in my spirit about him. What he had to say in some of his teachings on the Old Testament didn’t seem to click. I got the answer from your show When you had him on. Michael seems to be more enamored with the book of Enoch and he spend a lot of times trying to interpret what these writings were really saying that they influenced his understanding of the Old Testament. That’s what I thought I heard when he gave you answers about the book of Enoch.
remember wuest wrote that book in 1940, before someone coined the term "5 fold ministry"
5 fold is actually 4 fold. teaching pastors is one. kenneth s. wuest . golden nuggets from the greek.
I thank you guys for sharing about this book there is a cult here in hamilton new Zealand and this book is used by the leader s for the interns only if you want a good and sound book on leadership my pastor don barry has written a book called water under the bridge and it is an exact and sound book
I agree with some of your points. But in the point brought up about experiencing the truth vs teaching the truth, is it possible he meant what Jesus meant when he said, "you search the scripture because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about me."?
Also, I think that in your argumentation about what the scripture means in regard to church structure and authority, you may inadvertently be making a case for the Catholic understanding of the church. That is to say, you don't just need an authoritative scripture, that can be accepted or rejected by any given church, but you kind of need an authoritative interpreter.
Which is what the church believed for the first 1500 years of the church…….
An authoritative interpreter implies looking to man rather than God. Teachers (and also apostles and prophets) are there to help, guide and equip, not to lord it over the congregation. An important principle of Bible study is that “scripture interprets scripture” and the Holy Spirit who wrote it is the authoritative interpreter.
@@elyudekrane15 Agreed, which is maybe the most significant reason I went into the Catholic Church, kicking and screaming in some ways. It's by no means perfect, and lots of arguments could be marshaled against this or that. But it does seem to me there is something quite signifcant about the history of the magisterium.
@@thirdparsonage that’s amazing bro. I was raised Catholic and turned Pentecostal in high school in my ignorance. Now after looking at church history am either headed back to Rome or Orthodoxy. Because me and my Bible and the Holy Spirit is ridiculous.
@@stuarthys9879 were the apostles men? Because they were absolutely the authoritative interpreter in the early church and so were their successors. Scripture does not interpret scripture. And the Holy Spirit did not write the scripture the apostles did and Holy Spirit inspired them. The scripture is the book of the church meant to be interpreted by the church and in the church. It’s a liturgical book. The Church is the interpreter of scripture.
Thanks for the passion, fellas.
32:38 - YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!
And Amen
🔥 Amen 🔥
How about that Miller's innecesarily dramatic rendition "I was just... a teacher" at 1:10:00. Like, for real?
Danny Silk's Book is a classic example of correcting the wrong with another wrong. A recipe of Pragmatism.
Yes, interesting. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they might just make a worse.
99% of what Charismatics call "a prophetic gift" is not at all how the Bible defines Prophecy. Much of it could be understood as more in line of Words of Knowledge, and Words of Wisdom. But Words of Knowledge and Wisdom does not equal Prophecy. Prophecy is very clearly defined as God appearing to the Prophet, in a dream or a vision (and visions are shown to be so realistic that Peter could not tell if the angel rescuing him was real, or a vision), wherein the Word of the LORD will come to the Prophet at explicitly tell them to go to a people, or place, a deliver a specific messages. The Prophet is then carried along by the Spirit and delivers the Word of God, *_without_* giving any personal, or private interpretation. That is Prophecy. Not someone saying "I feel like the LORD wants us to do X." Feelings are not Prophecy.
A Word of Knowledge however, could potentially lead the person to such thoughts, and feelings, and so there could be some confusion there. Though generally a Word of Knowledge is a Divine Revelation about a specific person, situation, event, etc. Like knowing that someone stole from their boss, and is under conviction during the sermon.
Thank you😊!
13! Bar Mitswa time? 🙂 Congratulations! Have you guys some nice ideas to celebrate this for Christians? My son is turning 12 in januari. My husband is not a mountain climber type. 😁
I wonder why we would need to celebrate that? Is Bar-Mitzva in any way a biblical celebration?
In the mean time, God is moving powerful in Bethel church. Not everything is perfect but the presence of the Lord is so real and tangible there.
That is exactly the pragmatic issue we were bringing up. "But look at the fruit," is the typical excuse given to justify every bad practice (Refer to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast). So how bad does it have to be to take a look at the means employed to get there? When do you draw the line before deciding it is time to say something? Being a Jewish person, never okay with staying silent regardless of how much "apparent fruit" seems to be there.
That breaks my heart because what your effectively saying is don’t give justice to the poor or afflicted. This becomes oppressive, it even implies that God is okay with the oppression because fruit is shown. “You thought I was all together like you.” We have to “love mercy and do justice.” That doesn’t mean kick people out, or give hard correction ( although if need be amen) but it does mean fixing the system that promotes disfranchising people. It’s so unloving to have that pragmatic view. It’s cruel actually.
I agree. The presence or miracles do not justify toxic and unhealthy relationships and practices. “Look at the fruit.” I agree and would loved to have had more specifics mentioned on the episode. You mentioned multiple friends at other churches or experiences…I do not doubt you. Rather I want to know who are these churches? Which individuals had these experiences? Which regions? Which leaders? Or was it multiple leaders? Specifics helps filter out particular churches or individuals that take it too far. But you’re not going after Danny…so who is it exactly? Again we should name names if it is as bad as you say (and I believe it is in certain church cultures). Let’s go 😂
@@nickmartin6130 All I’m saying is that I honor what God is doing there, I myself stop following some of their leaders and I’m not ok with some of the things Danny wrote on this book, never the less I’ve been touch greatly by this ministry in general and many times watching online, the presence of the Lord there touches my home where I am. One thing I learn, if I’m not ok with something a pastor, leader etc, etc, is doing or saying, I just stop watching or listening to them so I won’t judge or criticize what God is doing thought them, at the end one day we all going to have to give Jesus an account of the things we did and said in his name.
@@spn2240 Our goal wasn't necessarily to point out the people but rather the doctrines and practices. If people can see the doctrines and practices for what they are, unbiblical and often abusive, then they will be better equipped to recognize it in those people. Fact is this problem is prolific in charismatic Christianity. We could spend all day just naming names.
Book is nothing more than the precepts of men.
Isaiah 29:13 KJV - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Mark 7:7 KJV - Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Bethel and many others arent God's Churches. Read His Word Holy Bible.
Better late then never. 😁😉👍🏻
apostles not for the needs to the people?????? wrestling tights??? lotfw l to mch
🎯!!
Can we talk about millers mustache?
Yes! You’re welcome!
Amazing
How much can a church that affirms gospel basics add to them, and emphasize the additions, before it's a different gospel?
How many dangerous, horrific statements does Bethel have to spew before their gospel basics become irrelevant??
I mean, you guys are audibly GASPING at the awful things in this book, but you're partnering with someone from the same church!
You may say that's guilt by association, but what it's saying is that the things you're gasping at (and other things you've called dangerous, like The Physics of Heaven) are not that big a deal.
Man... the "person we are partnering with" agrees with us on our assessment. You are throwing stones from a far and yes, I agree, falling into guilt by association. We think it is a big deal. We've treated it as a big deal. Not sure what else you are hoping for. So is every person who was ever at that church off-limits from partnering with when they also agree with the problems we are pointing out?
Also, reach out to that person "we are partnering with" before drawing such hard conclusions. Have a conversation. It is what we are trying to do across the spectrum.
@JOSEPH We draw the line at basic creeds. That is our understanding of Orthodoxy. Bethel affirms and teaches those creeds. I can't call someone a heretic who affirms and teaches those things no matter how much I dislike the other unhealthy teachings & practices. Hopefully that answers the question. We run into a problem on this podcast in that we call balls and strikes but unfortunately it is never the line others want us to draw such as his accusation of "who we associate with." That person, if I'm guessing right, is on the same page with us all but @philagape would have us cast him aside as well and for what reason... because he went to bethel.
@@michaelmiller5024 "So is every person who was ever at that church off-limits from partnering with when they also agree with the problems we are pointing out?"
Yes. Absolutely.
If he's with that church, then the disagreement is not a big deal. That speaks louder than anything he says.
Just like their practices and emphases and many dangerous teachings speak louder than their "creeds." Adding so much to the gospel makes it a different gospel.
Association IS guilt. Romans 16:17
@@Philagape First off, not if its being addressed. Try to be less obtuse and more inquisitive. Secondly, he's not there anymore.
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent
G1097 - a knowledge grounded on personal experience
G1097 - ginōskō
Joshua it sounds like you’re accusing a Bethel of adding scripture. Are you guys getting hung up on the term New when it could be really referred to as a fresh way of looking at something seeing something from a different facet that has not been looked at before or has been forgotten and notbeen practice in the church for a very long time. For example why did the church stop having apostles and prophets as part of the fivefold ministry. Why are so many churches today only recognizing three of them.?
You don’t believe that Bethel believes in a balance understanding of scripture and experiences of what takes place in the spiritual realm. There are people in groups out there that are all about experiences and not being balanced with the word of God. Bill Johnson points this out in his book When heaven invades earth. Talking about people in the past who started out great and ended up terrible. Because they began to believe in their own experiences over what the word of God was teaching. I believe if I remember he talked about AA Allan who was very anointed of God but he had little Training in the Bible he could hardly read. I forget who was his sidekick for lack of a better term who actually would help him with understanding what he was seeing and receiving from the Lord about things. How is found in the scriptures.
I’ve heard Miller’s testimony about what happened at another church she used to be in leadership with. My question is this is you say that you shouldn’t question what the pastor were leadership is saying to others? If we go around saying why I think this pastor is wrong and such as such and such and such. That’s going to create some division. In honor in our leadership we should go to them first and say hey I don’t agree with this I think what you’re teaching is wrong. And here’s why. And if he is unwilling to listen to you then you have a problem with leadership. Are we just confusing giving honor to our leaders who are in authority over us. with understanding what true leadership with authority looks like and what a dictatorial one looks like.
Joshua the term bringing heaven to earth is from Bill Johnson’s book when heaven invades earth. I believe this was his first book. And the whole ministry there is built on the fact that they will be done here on earth as it is in heaven. Is not bringing heaven to earth. though the book is not emphasizing what you say is teaching hit they have people teaching what they’re hearing and seeing and interpreting from scriptures.
When you say that in this book and or Bethel teaches that people who teach the Bible or not important or interpret the Bible or not important. Is something that maybe you really need to ask them to clarify what they mean. Because let’s face it, there are christians and Jewish scholars who can “Scriptures backwards and forward. And can give you every nuance as what they believe a scripture could be saying. And it’s only based on their human ability or their intellectual ability to understand what is being written. And still be devoid of what Scriptures are really saying. We can look at the life of Paul before he was converted he was like the people I mentioned above. He knew all about the Scriptures but he did not know the one or the spirit who wrote the scriptures. Paul writes in the second chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians. About how he would no longer use the wisdom of men or eloquence speech to try to convert people. But rather he would preach Jesus Christ and him only in the power and demonstration of the holy spirit. He goes on to say that the natural mind cannot understand the things of God. It’s been a while since I’ve read a really listen to Bill Johnson. But in the early 2000s when I’ve heard him speak at my church that I used to go to. he was after learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s interpretation and illumination of scriptures. We could equate what Danny is talking about here With the recent recent debates between charismatics and cessationists.
Again are you guys confusing the natural abilities of people to teach and to lead with the supernatural. That Danny is trying to point out here