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Charismatic Abuses
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2022
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I love that you talk about the idea that churches don't have a written vision or mission. The founder of my church who has planted 10 churches in our region, was asked to be interviewed by a local college about how he built such a great church network. they were expecting all of these bullet points and methodologies, his mission statement etc.... and he left them so disappointed. His answer was simple, he reads his Bible, Prays daily to seek God, and listens to what God tells him what to do. It's rather simple at the core
Now this man is definitely an apostle, or you could at least say apostolic. And even though he is the spiritual leader of my pastor and on all the church boards, he has no type of authoritarian say or rule in the churches he has had his hand in starting. He stands in a place as wise counsel and accountability to keep the Minister's he's raised up for these churches in check and to make sure that they don't get off track. But in the 12 years I have been in this church and even attended his own church he still pastors, I have not seen him overstep his authority. He knows it is the job of the pastor of each church to be the shepherd of the flock and to lead them, it's not his own. It is such a balanced leadership example and I am so thankful for that.
***Edit: This man is also WOF with Major balance. More on that below in comments.
Now that’s rare.
***Worth mentioning...this man was taught directly by Kenneth Hagin at Rhema in the 80s. He still preaches a WOF Message, but just like his apostlic gifting, it's with major balance... It's not about super prosperity and getting everything you want. In fact, one of his classic series is a 10 week message called the Wilderness Factor which is about the purpose in test and trials and how they mature the believer.
His WOF Message is about saying and believing for the things God desires. Claiming souls saved, more churches and leadership, people would have knowledge of God, revival, freedom of oppression and sickness...and honestly, he absolutely hates to talk about money because of the bad taste it leaves. I wish people would start to realize this was the true intention of Hagins message, and not what we see from the big names today.
Reminds of of the comments about Jesus: “He taught as one with authority, not as the teachers of the law”. I think people recognize when someone ministers out of true wisdom and authority proceeding out of a relationship with God. Nice to hear your story!
@@stuarthys9879 While it's always sketchy to compare Jesus Christ ministry to that of a mere man, I understand what you mean! Jesus is our example so we should definitely purposes to walk like Him and minister like him with the understanding that any success we have is only because of that relationship with Him. And I can say that this man has a humility that gives the glory to God for all that has been accomplished, and for that I am thankful.
That is very rare but sounds biblical and you are fortunate to have experienced what you have.
Thank you for having this discussion. i’m only into the first 20 minutes, but I wanted to stop and acknowledge that this dynamic of power is definitely experienced in other churches, that are not considered charismatic. I have personally experienced it being on staff at a Baptist church, and a reformed church.
Let Miller talk.
I am getting soooo blessed by these podcasts. God definitely caused me to stumble upon it the other day. Thank you!!!
So glad!
I'm glad you addressed the saying "I'm healed, I'm just waiting for the manifestation."
No one in the Bible EVER had to say that.
Manifestation is a defining characteristic of Biblical healing. Every healing was manifested right there and then. There were no invisible healings.
Edit: I wrote this before Miller talked about it. Dude you hit the nail on its head! :)
Very good video guys. Good to see there can be a healthy discussion. - My few cents: For those who doesn't realize it, there is absolutely nothing special about pulling people out of wheelchairs. UNLESS you know the person and circumstances. Being one myself, I can confirm - there are a lot of ambulatory wheelchair users.
For those of you who don't know what that means - yes - standing up and take a little walk is for many of us not a big issue. To people who haven't spend a bit time thinking about the hows and whys of a wheelchair and the person in it - that may look like a paradox, but it's not.
So know the circumstances, and don't start worshipping the "miracle worker". Do I believe in this stuff? - ABSOLUTELY. I've had genuine spontaneous healings happen to me several times. Does it bother me that I'm using a wheelchair while still believing in this? Not at all.
That has always been my question. But what were their capabilities before the prayer took place. Too often, not knowing the person, no clue if something really was healed or not. (I have battled a lot of chronic illness. Mainly, only people who know me are going to see significant changes.
I am just seeing this for the first time. I have had a host of diagnoses that nearly killed me. One thing I can say is pressing into to God and finding things to thank Him for has lead me on quite a journey of healing. I have learned a lot. Some of it has to happen in God’s timing and not my own. I have been healed of two illnesses that have no cure. When God opens the door, it is pretty exciting to see it all play out. There is no rule book for how He heals without a doubt. And many who are ill are in a bigger need for community and inner healing than physical healing so they can move forward in their lives. One huge issue I do take with prayer ministries is when they ask me what I want prayer for them immediately condemn me for speaking illness over my life. Talk about counter productive??? How can I ask for prayer if I can’t explain what is going on? This is especially painful for people who have been seeking medical help and doctors aren’t taking their illnesses seriously. (I was blown off for many years until my health completely collapsed.) I do not understand that mentality. If someone is asking for prayer, they are seeking a release from an infirmity, not to be scolded for mentioning it.
Just signed up to your Patreon account. Yes I want to break out of theological echo chamber.
Well your the only one.
Read the live chat. Everyone is firmly in their theological echo chambers every show!
Welp, it's definitely helped me hear various views and has blessed me greatly!
@@emmanueltemilade2547 I am just teasing the live chat people (they know who they are). I feel the constant need to tell everyone to love one another - one of the signs of being a disciple of Jesus - because there is so much arguementation going on. But I agree - i love TRR and the variety of thought across the spectrum of theology they bring. Its good stuff! Love you TRR
Oh man I hear you! That's completely fair family - thanks for the clarification btw!
@@TeRongo this made me laugh. Too true, unfortunately 😂
You know what really would be educating, and maybe healing for some. Having someone on the show who has been the abuser. And let him explain why he did it. What was in his/her heart.... We can all make those mistakes if we don't guard our heart. Or get isolated.
It would be an education. It would also possibly cause problems for that person because Christians LOVE to beat their wounded and those who used to wrong to others. So...I can imagine the comments section after such a show...especially on youtube.
As someone who has been abused by church leadership in the past, imma say that I would be a bit uncomfortable listening to the sob story of a former abuser
The problem here is that there is very little infrastructure keeping former abusers from abusing again. At what point do you step back and re-platform someone who abused their holy station, so that guy is able to sell his book, market his podcast, and repair his reputation? Religious trauma often does not heal. Call me cruel, but I have no problem with excluding people who have profited from misuse of sacred office from internet celebrity status
Those folks get to seek comfort from God and their priests. They don’t get to seek it from me, and they shouldn’t get to seek it from you
Jesus Christ, The truth of the true Word of God, asking and praying to God to give us greater understanding and knowledge of His only truth as well as forgiving those that have wronged us is the only way to be set free and be healed.
The first step is forgiveness, than there is the process of healing our heart and mind and that can take time....
I speak from personnal experiences... it took about 2 years for my heart to be healed, being able to go into a church building without being trigger.
Through the process, continue to submit to God, keeping our eyes on Jesus Christ, letting this situation and hurt to be used by God to transform us more in Christ like character and bearing more fruit of the Spirit, so that God can get the Glory🙏☝️✝️
During the process of healing, I started a fellowship at my home with a few sisters as to not forsake the assembly of the saints. Getting together, praying for one an others, growing in Christ together has greatly helped me to heal.
After prayers God has now placed me in a new church/fellowship who is strong in the word of God and lead by a humble pastor🙏 Glory to God🙏
The abuser probably won’t ever expose themselves. Most abusers stay like that.
Costi Hinn, Benny Hinn’s nephew, worked for him for years. He ended up accepting Christ as Savior outside of his uncle’s show and was then convicted to tell the truth about his family business. He risked everything, and his story is incredible. If God healed someone at a Benny Hinn show, it was in spite of Benny Hinn.
I hope you hear my sincerity and heart in this post. I have been watching remnant radio in the recent months because I am honestly seeking to know the truth of scripture regarding the “spiritual gifts”. I am reformed in my beliefs but have never been confident in the belief of cessations. But I still don’t see in biblical clarity coming from you. I have watched many of Sam Storms talks on the Spiritual gifts as well and I walk away feeling overwhelmed. It’s a heavy burden to know that as a believer I would have to interpret every word someone says to me to determine if their “interpretation” of their revelation from God is correct. I do this with the written Word of God already. Now I would be expected to do this as I shuffle through the revelations of others who claim to be prophets? As someone who grew up in a Charismatic church, there can be 10 people all claiming to prophets even in small churches. This can be overwhelming. And honestly, the many prophecies I received as a child almost ship wrecked my faith bc of the inconsistencies. I know you quote small bits of scriptures but maybe focus on the scripture more and really dissect this. As with the faith healers, why is there such obfuscation when speaking of the egregious things people do in the name of Christ. I don’t believe you should say that they are unsaved, but if they do have what you believe to be a true gift, is their accountability before God not higher? Why can we not point our fingers at them and say that they are bringing shame to the name of Christ. And then on the discussion about sifting through peoples lives and asking questions before prayer, there seems to be so much mysticism that surrounds this. I want so badly to know where I stand on this, and I truly believe God is powerful and can operate in any way, but what is seen displayed through so many charismatics is utter confusion. Please know I love you all as brothers in Christ and I can see your hearts for The Lord. I just feel more confused and overwhelmed after listening to this conversation. They way you describe the workings of the Spiritual gifts is just not what I see in scripture. And I hold my views on this in an open hand. I may be wrong, like I said, I just wished this was not so cloudy.
I think it's important to remember that they are doing their best to explain the spiritual gifts using natural wisdom and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but no one taught the NT ministers this way, so don't let their definitions trip you up. They are an assist, but not part of scripture.
I am glad to hear that you have realized that the reformed perspective on Spiritual gifts ending is not backed by scripture but if you are at a place in your walk with God where you can only acknowledge the gift examples that you clearly seen in scripture, then run with that! I completely understand how your previous experience puts so much pressure on your life, but I promise you that not all churches that practice the gifts operate in those excessive ways. I mean, 10 prophets in one church? I'm 100% on board with all gifts and ministry offices...but something seems off there, and your right, how would you possibly sift through 10 words from 10 prophets....and the truth is it's almost impossible to do.
So with all that said, keep seeking the gifts as you are, don't back off, but find those churches/ministries where it is active, but is not the main focus, and they are promoting and calling everyone and anyone a pastor, teacher, prophet apostle... these are gifts given by God and not man. The spiritual gifts are essential to the function of Christ body, but there should be a balance.
As far as those operating in excess with spiritual gifts...It sees to me RR is trying to keep their focus on teaching proper Bible interpretation vs solely calling out false teachers and prophets. There are enough of those out there who only do that kind of work, but they aren't actually slowing down to teach a full view of the topics, it's just short 10 minute videos that says a minister is wrong and why they disagree with it. Remnant radio seems like they don't want to fall into the heresey hunting category.
I hope something here that I have written helps!
@@BEABEREAN10 thanks for your kind and encouraging comment. It is definitely something I pray about. I trust God will lead me. Again, thanks for your kindness!
I would tip my hat so to speak to any believer or group of believers who are not homeless but join in with a ministry like under the bridge and actually roll their sleeves up and help disciple them.
We don't police our own house. We refuse to call a spade a spade. Judgment must start with the House of God.
I really enjoy you guys. I'm thankful for the Spirit's conviction in the gospel you are preaching.
I think that the gifts of the Spirit are abused because they are not gifts. I know I am late posting. The only one called a gift is the healing that is because the healing itself is the gift, the others are Spiritual manifestation, the Spirit is the one that works them all and not man, that is why you see so much of this stuff. I enjoy watching you guys teach this even more than cessationist you are more real than they are .
Oh no! Feel better Joshua Lewis.
I was healed of Crohn’s disease and a Benehan crusade. I was sick for 10 years and was healed March 6, 1998 at 8:40 PM at that crusade. I am a little concerned why y’all feel like he leverages his gift. My understanding is that he has worked on a salary that is set up by his board, and any other monies that come in, go to the ministry not to him personally.
Thank you.
Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks brothers. 🌻
What are some tips for finding a healthy charismatic church?
Find a Bible believing/Spirit Filled Church. Ask the Holy Spirit where He wants you to go.
I was in prison in 2016 and read Benny hinns book Welcome Holy spirit in the prison library and 16-17 pages into the book Benny asks you to invite Jesus to be lord and savior and to welcome the Holy spirit into my life and at that Moment the tangible presents of the Holy spirit fell on me and it was the most amazing experience of my life! I believe 100% Benny is gifted in many ways! Benny has admitted to abusing the prosperity gospel and has repented on line for doing so! Let's pray for Benny's salvation in Jesus mighty name 🙏
M.R….try to reign in your tongue. Discipline yourself to allow others speak without interruption.
Our mega evangelical church pastor said that we were commanded to tithe 1/10 and that God promises to bless us if we do. He used scripture to prove it.
Amen about mission statements not mirroring the great mission, but are either Church or Ministries or denominations specific
Agree with your def of apostolic
samson made a nazarite vow. as long as he kept his hair long he had strength. even though he was doing wrong things.
We sure are seeing a lot of prophetical manipulation in today’s churches. Where are the elders?
Your definition of abuse is rooted in feminist theory. A person without institutional power can also act abusively toward others. I wish you had made more of an effort to develop a biblically shaped definition.
Too many times we seek the gift and not Jesus. When we seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, he promises that all other things would be added to us. When you exult gifts above the person of Christ and the finished work of the cross, that’s where you get into Extremism and out of balance
I wish y'all would get someone like lee shipp, or darren downs on the program to talk about the differences in traditional classic pentecostal and the charismatic and charismaniac movements
Hi guys! You mentioned inner healing, I was in a group with inner healing and deliverance taking place, I was a part of this group for over a year. Weekly prayer, weekly teachings. I came out of the group a few months ago and I am worse off than I was before I started with my physical ailments. So I’m wondering what you guys would say about that?
Please explain what you meant by "Demonic Miracles", especially in regards to your reference to Matthew 7:21-23. Not sure that what you were trying to express there was all that clear and could be misconstrued very easily.
How about a statement like this, how about preach the gospel make disciples, minister to the poor, widows and orphans and love one another so the world sees Jesus through us?
So, my background is reformed southern baptist (not charismatic at all lol), but I have become more open to that aspect of the faith. The hardest part for me, is that the only instances I have had happened in my life have been fake. I had someone in my life who had a "vision" (not a dream, like a straight up vision while they were praying) that turned out to be completely false. Like it was just false. Based on how they described it to me, it did NOT come true. This vision was related to both of us, so it definitely threw me in to turmoil when it became clear it was false.
I really just don't know with this.
What modern day apostle has walked with jesus,chosen directly by jesus and seen him after his resurrection?? I do not believe there are true apostles in today's church
What if you're a teacher and prophetic??? 👉My gifts.👈
I disagree. Prophets should have more authority than elders. But Prophets should also verify their commands from the Lord through confirmations. That would be like saying that King Saul would know how to run Israel better than the Prophet Samuel. Also just because someone is an elder doesn't mean they know how to run a church.
We should also not teach what Paul says in letters as the LAW on how to run a church. They should all be examined contextually for the churches he was writing to. There is so much context that they understood during that day, and vetting that could have gone on for them to trust their elders and how elders were appointed.
Many churches today do not appoint elders well or even follow the Spirit in appointing them. Elders DO NOT have more authority than a prophet. If it's the word of the Lord, we should obey the word of the Lord.
I cant find the patreon link. Can you repost in comments please?
You can now find it at theremnantradio.com. Thanks
Good episode. Wondering, in the case of Benny Hinn he himself has admitted to preaching incorrectly about certain things, family issues etc. It’s hard one though, because I know many people personally that have been genuinely touched by the Spirit in his meetings including myself. I think we have to judge the overall fruit, because more important than a supernatural healing many have grown closer to Jesus and have grown passionate for the Lords presence and word. If this work was of Satan I wouldn’t want to get closer to Jesus. Let’s not forget that people can make mistakes, theological mistakes, character mistakes, we are all learning. The Lord is merciful in how he deals with his people, we should be merciful as well and give people the opportunity to repent if they’ve done wrong. Now if a minister is doing things on purpose, with deceitful motives leading the sheep astray that’s whole different dilemma to address.
Listening to you disagree on what an apostle is seems confusing. Are there no scriptures to form a definition of an apostle today? This is why some are critical when they hear “there are apostles today”. There is too much based on “l feel” or “I think” or “what do you think?”
QUESTION: Why isn’t Reformed Theology not considered an abuse of the Scriptures? They say Israel is no longer considered but is now absorbed into the Church? Saying all of REVELATION occurred in 70AD! They are saved. BUT ARE NOT CALLED OUT BY THE TRUE CHURCH AND SO ARE LEADING MANY ASTRAY!
It seems Paul saw his call to be an apostle not just as a gifting but also as authoritative. I think because be was an apostle he felt he could come in and bring correction if he thought necessary. I think we could say the same for John from his epistles. And of course Christ is said to be the "apostle" in Hebrews 3 which seems to use the term as authority over the house he serves in, like the high priest, or like Moses. I think people are inclined to misuse this authority but I think we have to acknowledge apostle does come with at least some form of authority from the way we see it used in scripture, at least over the house he is called to use the gift for. Although this is totally from scripture reading and not experience, so I may be unknowingly applying incorrectly.
Can you please pray for me
Hey guys, are Weds still devoted to continuationism type stuff? If so…
Y’all should change the intro: have a separate intro for Weds, one not saying “get out of your theological echo chambers” since y’all are coming from and often advocating for a specific pov. And you can put Miller in there as a cohost, without changing the intro for the other days where Miller is not there.
Two intros might be difficult, Idk RUclips and tech stuff- but it would cover all the bases.
Obey your leader, in a sence of unity, as today we don't have masters slave relationships Philemon 14
I think we're all apostles in the sense that we're all called out, we're all sent out by Jesus to spread the gospel. I think man elevates certain people and then gives them that title.
There isn't a single word of this that squares with biblical teaching. It reeks of the same rebellious logic Korah had when he argued that all of the Israelites should have been elevated to the same lvl as Moses. God gives the revelation to apostles because it's _their_ duty to spread the gospel and no one else's.
Great video Remnant Radio!
They have no fruit of the real spirit. Their attitude resembles that of a pharisee. It’s sad because many of them have very good. Sound doctrine. It doesn’t appear to me that they are striving for unity in the body of Christ, but are sewing division and descension further by not explaining incorrect teaching versus throwing people under the bus.
30:10 sounds like a pretty rough background but definitely seems to have made it which is great for him
-Any pastor has pretty much made it-all of life's greatest expenses are provided for (housing, kids college fund, etc) and all youre expected to mainly do for "work" is read your Bible for writing messages; hardly strenuous. Nothing unbiblical about pastors being paid but that automatically makes them out of touch w/ many of their congregants that are just struggling just to survive and find a way to make ends meet
36:10 there's no way that any pastor works like Paul today lol bc they don't even have a real job like Paul had let alone all the other horrors he had to endure. His experience will remain unmatched throughout time
38:01 talks about putting in 20-30 hrs of "free work" at the church but it's salary so how does that work. I guess he means being there more than expected. I knew of country pastors that'd have 4-6 services per week. I guess avg would be 2-3
46:30 gives a major example of a "false apostle" who pulled someone from a wheelchair and operated in word of knowlege possibly as well
50:45 he can't say he knows many that have been healed by hinn bc that doesn't exist. He avoids the wheelchair section and he keeps them away from the cameras. All of the severe cases are always kept from the cameras. Dateline asked him for 1 documented miracle and he had none which isn't good if your a 100m $ "healing" evangelist
1:01:45 wimbers book pwer evangelism
I genuinely love listening to you guys, and appreciate your ministry so much, but all the interrupting is driving me nuts on this one. Roundtree especially, please please just stop 🤦♀️.
Honestly, I am going to stop watching remnant because of Michael Roundtree. He interrupts constantly, is cavalier to the point of arrogance and narrow mindedness. It is obvious that he thinks he knows more than everyone. At least that’s how he comes off. Michael Miller, you need to get your own show. You’re way beyond these two.
The old lesbian friend allergies. I hate when that happens.
When Benny Hinn declared his seemed renunciation of Prosperity Gospel and his excesses on the Gifts, I know for a fact that he is not sincere actually about it. Perhaps, did he recant just because Costi Hinn exposed him? The American and Canadian Media proved their expose about it. So those who are fans of Benny Hinn, i am sorry to say: You have been deceived.
How do you know this for a fact?
When are you guys going to do a full video on cessationist, Calvinistic and reformed heresies and abuses which in my opinion do far more damage to the body of Christ that the extreme charismatics
I like your show but there are no real apostles like all these fake apostles and on TV on TBN and Daystar and all these fake any our apostles and Prophets that get it wrong 90% of the time they're really not of God so be careful with the word apostle all that means is someone sent but there are no apostles like these people think that a replacing the apostles of the Bible God help us
Amen I agree 100%
Sounding very NAR-ly, M.R. You’ve not let MM speak AT ALL for the first 20+ minutes. This apostolic thing is mushy.
How about all the cessationist, “discernment” abuses out there? Who monitors these people with their free range, vitriolic, self righteous slander? Or maybe it’s not worth bringing undue attention to attention seekers?