Dr. Michael Brown Responds: Can We Lock Arms With NAR Critiques
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2022
- Dr. Michael Brown Responds: Can We Lock Arms With NAR Critiques
As many of you know Remnant Radio has taken a mediated position on the New Apostolic Reformation. Which is odd because we are proud practitioners of spiritual gifts and many In the pentecostal charismatic space have a visceral reaction to NAR language. We did a bit of research on the NAR, with the assumption that we would agree with the vast majority of Charismatics. However, in our research, we came across a book called "A New Apostolic Reformation? A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement" by Doug Geivett and Holly Pivec. Doug and Holly changed our minds on the subject. They identified a group of charismatic doctrines that we also wished to condemn. Though we disagreed with them on a few minor points, we found that their research shed necessary light on Charismatic abuses. So over a year ago, we interviewed both Doug and Holly in order to give them a chance to share their research with us.
Today we are proud to be interviewing one of the world's foremost apostolic teachers and prominent voice In the New Apostolic Reformation.
I jest, I jest!
For real though, Dr. Michael Brown will be with us today to discuss the NAR. We have the utmost respect for Dr. Brown and his work in the charismatic community. For those who do not know, Dr. Brown has been one of the loudest dissenting voices against the vocabulary of "New Apostolic Reformation" calling It "the boogie man" and "a conspiratorial witch hunt". Today we are giving Dr. Brown the opportunity to speak about this often hotly contested subject. We hope in our discussion today we can find some middle ground that will help both charismatics and cessationists lock arms in policing the rare, yet frequently publicized charismatic excesses.
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It was good to hear Dr Brown's perspective on this topic. I think the underlying issue in all of this is that no one wants to be taken advantage of or manipulated by any church or ministry. Accountability needs to happen, but not slander.
WRT "... Accountability needs to happen, but not slander..."
that concept holds forth on more than one level: popular christian neo-apologetics seems to claim that once you are "saved" that you are no longer
accountable for your actions or failures to act.
Or as a movie line went, " son, the good Lord might forgive you but the State of Georgia will not".
And that also goes for people who claim that Donald Trump is some kind of gift from god. If you voted for him to "end abortion" then I'd say you have already sold your soul for a few silver coins.
And I would not count on anyone forgiving you for that.
OK but what accountability has happened? And Kat Kerr and the "courts of heaven" book are hardly the key players.
@Dean A. you sound like the passion translation
@Dean A.
show me someone found culpable for slandering a church, and I will show you someone who should have hired better legal defense.
Wow! To person who just said Trump voters were condemned to Hell...you just condemned yourself. We voted for someone who more reflected our morals which were better than the Democrats. Most of us weren't thrilled with Trump and now we're even less thrilled. But we don't think Trump is a God. Whom did you vote for? How's he doing? Or are you a drop out and didn't vote at all because you're too smart or noble? 🤔
It's amazing how much more conciliatory, gracious and generous continuists are to cessationist ministers than cessationists are towards continuists.
Any falsify teaching or prophecy makes this the case.
I currently attend an NAR church and have mentioned this to leadership about three years ago and am about to meet with leadership again next Thursday to discuss this. Please pray for a fruitful conversation and for there to be clarity and truth brought to light in love to maintain unity in our church. Thank you so much for this discussion, it is so appreciated.
Tell them they better be walking in the authority AND the power of an Apostles. It's one thing to say they're coming and send out the message. It's another thing to say they're here and they're US.
Lord, guide Your flock.
@Dean A. I disagree. All of the offices come with authority and varying degrees of leadership. A pastor is a shepherd aka leader of the flock. I also disagree that today's apostles don't equate themselves to the 12. Perhaps the sane ones don't, but some of these people live in a fantasy world of decrees and declarations believing whatsoever they decree must come to pass. God has humbled them several times on the world's stage in recent years. First at Lakeland when more than 10 so-called apostles stood on stage on God TV and prophesied that Todd Bentley was the next level forerunner, evangelist, Elijah to lead the Church ... meanwhile he was a fraud who was actively engaged in adultery and drunkenness. A few weeks later all was revealed and the biggest names in charismatic circles were shown to be frauds who could not hear from God. Happened again with the Trump prophecies. Thousands of prophets got it wrong and proved they don't know how to hear from God. But does the church ignore them and stop supporting their ministries? Nope. And this church will the one Jesus spoke of as the elect who were deceived.
@Dean A. First, Pastor is not a gift, it's an office, a leadership role in the church. And it's not a specialty in relations; you're way off base there. The Pastor is the leader of the local church. Someone who leads the direction of the flock, ensures the flock is properly fed truth, protects it from the enemy, and represents the Good Shepherd to the flock. That's the very essence of leadership.
As for those today and how they view themselves re: the 12, the story isn't done yet. Most apostles believe in dominionism, that they will literally exercise ruling authority over the 7 mountains of worldly influence to transform the earth preparing it for the return of Christ. They teach about the level of anointing and authroity they will have in that day that they believe is fast approaching. Go back and listen to what they spoke over Todd Bentley in Lakland on God TV as being the first of that new breed of super apostle they've been waiting for. Bickel teaches how he believes his IHOP forerunners are going to be ushering the endtime judgements from Revelation and the return of Christ. These apostles have a messed-up theology which gives them an inlated sense of self.
..the NAR do not care about theology. At the time of Todd Bentley's annointing (2008), I went to his web site where you found that he believed in 'Serpent Seed theology', that is where God becomes Satan in Genesis & vice versa (incredibe) & he had some theologian stating it was ok to pray to angels (idolatory) by using The Angel of the Lord (has to be Jesus as people worship Him) in the OT as justification.
That was only up there a few days as he removed it once he got criticism. But Bill Johnson etc must have known what he believed. If they didnt they were giving someone 'high office' without knowing what they believed which is just as bad.
I think we charismatics are gullible in that we're easily misled by false teaching and abuses. If we think a minister's "anointed", we don't check if their teachings or actions are biblical.
hmmm...so are you saying that the warnings about "false prophets" and "wolves in sheeps' clothing" were to be taken SERIOUSLY then?
for extra points, how were the false prophets supposedly to be identified?
Plus there are teachers who actually ARE anointed but they hold a couple bad teachings that sort of ruin the whole thing.
@@tonypino5415
not only which, but by the standards of common era judea, a diviner soothsayer could be put to death for prophesying something that did not come true. So it did benefit such people to make VAGUE predictions.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 if they say something that doesn't come to pass, they're a false prophet, you don't have to listen to anything they claim to say "thus says the Lord"
if their prophecy comes true and they mislead you from God, false prophet, mark and avoid them
@@tomtemple69
wrt "...if they say something that doesn't come to pass, they're a false prophet..."
great that you know that. so why in both mark and matthew, is yeshua directly portrayed as having TOLD HIS TWELVE that the end-times were so near that some of them would not know death.
It would appear that all of them did and most knew it violently.
Great to see Dr brown on your program .
We have much to learn from this brother .
I really loved the end when he (Dr. Michael Brown) said whenever he journals and prays for his critics or people like such, he asked God to pull the good and celebrate the good and also call the bad to repentance. He also said "God you know their heart".. before he said those things, That's very humbling way to look at your critics or enemies in general, most of us don't even do that....so provoking and humbling.
Very helpful conversation. Thanks gentlemen.
I appreciate the Remnant Radio team and Dr. Brown. What an awesome Kingdom mash-up!
I think you mean Rembrandt Radio and Dr. Bowie ; )
As always- really appreciate your conversations. You were so right when you said part of the problem is that NAR can create unnecessary fear as well as division. I feel it can be spiritually damaging as well to throw around a term like anointed or authority. I think it would be helpful to define what is even meant in Congregations when it is said - the people should be “in alignment with the spiritual authority of the church’s leaders”- as even Dr. Brown mentioned. What I find alarming is that most of the church’s that are claiming to be non-denominational end up having NAR-ish church structures that can cause spiritual damage. If we are true believers then we have the Holy Spirit and therefore nobody is more “God’s favorite” than someone else. Different functions yes, But not more important. Thanks for pushing back on the importance of defining what NAR is! 🙏🏻❤️
Really liked the part about debating side by side with Dr. White, and showcasing the weaknesses and strengths of both continuationists and cessationists. Scripture is clear that the parts of the body of Christ have need of each other and cannot say to each other that we don’t need each other. Though I disagree on certain points, I realize as a continuationist that I need my cessationist family for many reasons…one of the main ones being found in Ephesians 3: I cannot know the fullness of the love of Christ without them.
right, and so therefore you clearly know who is right, except that you don't. And of course it is IMPOSSIBLE that both parties to the debate are wrong. That third scenario, is just off the table entirely.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 Cessationists is false and demonic
@@adeyemopeterayobami6293
WRT "... Cessationists is false and demonic..."
0) visualize using a spell checker or at least a guide for syntax
1) I have no idea what you are talking about
2) do you?
3) WRT "...demonic..." :
why is it that your supposedly omnipotent god STILL HAS APPARENTLY FAILED TO TOTALLY VANQUISH such evil threats to humanity?
Such obviously failure, does not really match the "omnipotent" notion.
Thank you so very much 🙏😊!
Excellent broadcast, giving a valuable, balanced view based on scripture! Sola Scriptura!
"One wrong does not right another wrong."
That is my answer on the issue of the Charismatic Chaos, Excesses and Abuses, we cannot correct the issue by totally despising the True Charismatic Gifts. That is not only wrong, that is Unbiblical!
We cannot right a wrong if we are subscribing to another wrong teaching. J.Lee Grady said: "There are thousands of churches in this country (especially the Philippines, emphasis mine.) that teach that the gifts of the Spirit no longer function. Even though the apostle Paul said, "Do not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39) and "Do not despise prophecies" (1 Thess. 5:20), speaking in tongues and prophecy are off-limits-along with healing and miracles.
It was a lack of faith that created the doctrine known as "cessationism." Respected Bible teachers have convinced whole sectors of the church that God no longer operates supernaturally. Christianity has been reduced to an intellectual argument, devoid of power. And even in churches that wear the Pentecostal label, we have created such tight controls on our meetings that the gifts can't function."
Reformation is possible, we can correct and rebuke the Chaos by going to the root of the issue and confront it with the Truth of the Scriptures.
For years, the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel creates a lot of collateral and great damage to our Movement, especially the Pentecostal Movement. In order to combat and correct its damage, let us uphold the Biblical Portrait of Stewardship, Generosity and Accountability.
Plus, let me be honest: We need to Reform and Correct our Understanding about the Five Fold Ministry (Ephesians 4:11-12) because unfortunately, it was being abused and misused by people who are obssessed with Titles. Listen, the Five Fold Ministry is not just a Title itself, it is an Ecclesiastical Function given to the Church Leaders ordained by God's Spirit.
We need to correct also our understanding of the Gifts and Manifestations and Miracles because it was being abused and misused and we need to develop Biblical Discernment in examining those Manifestations, especially Prophecies and Rebuke False Prophecies.
True Revival without Discernment is Gullibility. Revival with Discernment is Freedom.
We can prevent Charismatic Chaos, Charismatic Strange Fire, if we go back to the Book of Acts and keep the main thing, the main thing as J.Lee Grady said: "The purpose of the Holy Spirit’s anointing is to empower us to reach others. We are at a crossroads today: Either we continue off-course, entertained by our charismatic sideshows, or we throw ourselves into evangelism, church planting, missions, discipleship, and compassionate ministry that helps the poor and fights injustice. Churches that embrace this New Reformation will focus on God’s priorities."
Well said, brother. I have heard of several disturbing "churches" in the Philippines, all heretical, and growing. Is this true, and how would characterize the overall state of the Church in the Philippines?
@@duncescotus2342 Yes, you are right. A lot of Hypercharismaniacs are so certified in mystical aspect and the misuse and abuse and the Prosperity Gospel was real also. Recently, the Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches made a statement against Gold Dust Scam. Sadly, Disunity is felt because of Partisan Politics and False Doctrine.
Yes, we rejoice in the growth of Evangelical Churches but pray that all Evangelicals will be faithful to the Scriptures and the increase of Pastoral Trainings here and we thank God for Dr. Ramesh Richards and other Faithful Preachers.
Brother, this is really well written. Keep spreading truth!
Absolutely spot on. One thing I have noticed in attending two fellowships over 20 years is that discernment is not welcomed, for it often throws a huge spanner in the works and ambitions of man.
The New Reformation is coming and is already beginning. Remnant Radio is helping.
I think giving yourself the title of Apostle is an immediate reverse card in “holding the office of Apostle” 😂😂😂
and of course if someone ELSE calls you an "apostle" then you are thusly established with all due cred, and that elaborate effort itself is totally above board.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 I think Jesus grants these things and it is up to Jesus' disciples to recognise when he sends someone or gives them a calling that involves Apostleship. What does the Apostleship involve, is it really a ministry or is it just a title. These offices of the Lord are ministries, and in the ministry they can be discerned.
@@skyeprophet3564 "apostle" means "someone who is sent out" and not presumably by just ANYONE but by the prophet whose message is subject to the great commission.
Which brings to mind the fact that saul and luke NEVER MET HIM.
@@skyeprophet3564
yeshua was an essene rabbi. he had no use for possessions, let alone "offices" nor the massive wealth of the church which claims to represent him.
I am certain that he would be horrified by what today claims to be the heir to his ministry.
At his death, he had not even chosen a successor. This seems rather odd to me, if he supposedly predicted his own death and went willingly.
You might want to make note of that.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 If you read the New Testament, you would understand clearly that Christ gave His followers Holy Spirit to empower and embolden us to do what He did...The Great Commission. We are called a Royal Priesthood and a Holy Nation.
I am not a cessationist, but neither am I charismatic and I want to applaud Dr. Michael Brown for what he said. If there are problems then let's talk about them. When we become possessed by an ideology within Christianity then what happens is those who hold to this ideology feel compelled to react and respond. We seem to like these "names" or titles that we can toss out and broad brush the person with. Christians should be very, very careful....(which they aren't) on how they speak about other members of God's family as well as those who are outside of God's family. Scripture is pretty clear about this.
"With it (the tongue) we bless our Lord and Father; and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way." (James 3:9,10).
Dear Dr Brown ,I’m glad you have publicly addressed kat kerr, now will please publicly address the false claims about Jesus playing a saxophone with Kevin Zadai. I hear you wrote a forward in his book , and this man is on the same frequency as kat Kerr
Exactly!
Each person sees through a different lens. We need all 5 ministry leadership gifts flowing purely to bring revival. Good word Dr. Brown.
So Dr Brown, you sent Sid Roth a letter saying do a better job at vetting his guests. Nice job! It didn’t work. How about calling out the false doctrine and those who are getting rich off of it instead of being so elusive about “ dealing” with it.
Exactly!
Comments starting around 56:00 are so important and spot on
why wait. I provide them above. I don't need to listen to an hour of this drivel.
I am not a Charismatic yet I do not believe the gifts have ceased. I don't know where in the heck i belong! LOL I don't think things were meant to be this complicated.
An honest Christian is what you are!
@@duncescotus2342 Why thank you! I didn't expect a compliment. lol God bless..
Great, so if a rambling "orator" makes specious claims about divine inspiration, is this a prophet or just someone who needs to take their meds.
I'm sure you can tell the difference since you are a good judge of character.
For extra points, did you vote for Donald Trump?
@@tracyavent-costanza346 Don't let your knowledge cause another, especially a little one, to stumble.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 Quit your arrogant posting.
Awesome
Could any of you brothers provide me with video examples where tongues and the interpretation of tongues are done appropriately?
I think it might be done correctly in Benny Ho's church. I seem to remember him requiring interpretation. And I've seen one Pentecostal church in the Caribbean doing it, but it's not common.
Friend, I recommend getting involved in a Romanian, Slavic, or Chinese Pentecostal church (or any other people group that suffered bloody persecution for their faith). Particularly in their prayer meetings. You are sure to find authentic tongues and interpretation from the Holy Spirit in these churches. I did not believe in the Pentecostal view on these gifts until after testing it for years. (I even attended an Assemblies of God Bible college for a whole year and still was’t sure about it until I met the Slavic believers.)
That would be as rare as hens teeth
@@duncescotus2342 How can you prove the interpretation is correct unless it is an actual foreign language?
@@theouterplanet You can't. But the message should be edifying. We know that from scripture. All New Testament prophecy, as far as I know, should build up and not tear down.
This is nice
I subscribe to this channel and to Dr. Brown’s, in a good faith effort to understand continuationism. I am only getting more confused. Does the milieu of Pentecostal/Charismatic/3rd Wave still have meaning? I hear you call yourselves charismatic. Does that still mean what it meant in the 70’s? At the time it seemed like a strategy to infiltrate non-Pentecostal denominations through small groups, ecumenical meetings, etc. I know that was the perspective of an outsider, but what do you mean by it, and how do you distinguish yourselves from the chaos?
And they say that God isn't "trendy".
Ask any egyptian who lived under Rameses.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 I’ll get right on that.
I 100% agree with Dr. Brown here. I think the NAR label doesn't actually help bring correction because it doesn't accurately define errors and it doesn't help people bring correction to it. It simply divides "us" versus "them". If someone were to label me NAR I almost instantly stop listening to anything they say because they aren't trying to help me, they are trying to label me. If someone were to bring correction to a specific error I may have I can actually listen and address the problem.
To Michael Rowntree's point about labeling heresies like "Arianism" or "Marcionism" those each refer to one specific teaching that was erroneous. NAR seems to refer not to one teaching but to a whole host of beliefs, cultures, and associations many of whom repudiate the main teachings that are supposedly in the NAR.
WRT "... It simply divides "us" versus "them"...
as though religion has not been doing that for 10,000 years or so.
At least in the last 200 or so, fewer of them are murdering one another.
Okay maybe they still are, but not in large numbers.
Okay unless they are pregnant and want abortions. Then it's okay to kill them.
...well you have to look at the main perpetrator of NAR and that is Bill Johnson and Bethel... he does hold to all of the NAR doctrines and more, just get some of his books and have a read.... eg his book the Physics of Heaven which is bringing the demonic into the church..
he wants william branhams mantle. William branham brought dominion theology into the church through the sharon brothers. people like derek prince would say that branham moved in the demonic as he could only heal when his angel was present. (idolatory). Derek Prince was on stage with branham and brings this out in his book protection against deception.
Bill Jonson has a database of churches in the UK who are aligned with him. I did his evangelism training in the UK in 2019 at Westminster Chapel. the gospel was ok but the teaching was all about elijahs mantle which is where they get their theology for grave soaking.
So this is all much more far reaching that Michael brown realises... I think...
Having Mike Bikel endorsement is not helpful after current facts about his double life ....sorry
So Bob Jones was instrumental in launching IHOP and he was the one teaching ministers how to visit heaven at-will, encounter angels at-will, etc. Did Remnant tackle that subject with Sam and Mike?
These blatant errors and heresies are conveniently glossed over.
That whole thing is not only very disturbing, but frustrating.
..what is more, the Kansas city prophets wanted Clifford Hill (well known in the UK in the 1990's in his magazine Prophecy Today) to do the forward to their book, Some said it thundered. He refused because he said there was an evil spirit operating among them. They refused to repent...
Paul Cain (head of the kansas city prophets) was a child prodigee of William branham. Derek Prince who had been on stage with him said that Branham moved in the demonic (in his book, Protection against deception) as he could only operate when his angel was present (idolatory).
The first video i watched of Todd bentley, he said, the same angel that started Branham's ministry started mine. (Bentleys web site (for a few days) showed that he believed in serpent seed theology and praying to angels...
ihops web site claims it doesnt teach dominion theology (NAR) but their bible schoold videos do just that...
I think the category is helpful. I also think it’s important to note that before NAR became a label with a negative connotation, it was a celebrated idea. There is a whole systematic theology textbook for people in the NAR. I own it- it’s called Systematic Theology for the New Apostolic Reformation. I was recommended it after taking Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry satellite classes at my former church. I think it’s silly to dismiss a label because you’re worried people will wrongly be put under it. If the category is well defined (and I believe this is) then someone who does not belong can be efficiently shown that they don’t belong & the label can continue being helpful in its right context.
Who wrote the book?
Harold Eberle
and history NEVER indicates that some relatively contemporary idea, which becomes trendy, then goes OUT just as quickly as it came IN.
We have never seen that, especially not in POLITICS nor in the notoriously capricious MEDIA nor FASHION industries.
And if you are about to claim that RELIGION is never subject to such whims, maybe you need to learn about wikipedia.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 It all just gets re-branded. We see that in history continuously. The same idea with a different name attached to it.
But I’ll tell ya from experience, the New Apostolic Reformation is still a celebrated label/idea where I’m at in the PacNW. I wish we were surrounded by biblically sound Charismatics who leaned more in the camp of these guys at Remnant Radio, but my area is extremely influenced by the NAR as well as the Word of Faith movements.
Good show
I find it very hard to believe that Dr. Brown isn’t familiar with the craziness in the NAR movement. Che Ahn, Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner - he’s got to be familiar with these men. I mean, he’s appeared with his good friend Sid Roth on “It’s Supernatural” multiple times. He filibustered this entire interview.
Yes! It becomes hard to see it as anything more than him being deliberately misleading and I really hate to say that. As for Kat Kerr and Sid Roth, you couldn't slide a piece of paper between them that's how close they are in their nuttiness.
@Firebird Gm3r
He knows full well and he’s not fooling those who think as you (and I) do.
He seems to be the educated representative for all the charismatics. I’ve heard him say multiple times he “doesn’t have time” to research all the crazy things that are said or happen - especially Sid Roth.
Very good
😆 🤣 😂 Katt Kurr is a whole category all by herself! 🤣 "There's the Trump prophesies, the prosperity gospel, there's charismania, there's Katt Kurr." I dunno why that cracked me up! 🤣 But yea, I'm careful how I judge people who say wrong things, but that's the first person I have confidently called a false prophet. I'm dumbfounded how she has soo many followers. It's a scary thought.
Yet Dr Brown endorses one of Kevin Zadais books. Of course Kevin has been to Heaven, talk to Jesus, seen angels at a hotel , etc. $
Funny you should mention those points.
A lot of these theological issues can be alleviated if people would study the word of God. Rightly dividing the word of truth.
When Dr Brown mentions “hyper critics” who are done possible examples of that?
Genuinely curious, and asking in love, just want to be more informed about that category of people 🤔 I haven’t heard they term before but I think I may have some RUclipsrs in my head that could fit that
Oh how appealing to my ego.
Pulpit and Pen, Servus Christi, etc
Cessationists are hyper critics.
There are many, but Justin Peters may be the most known. He attacks and ridicules many, many other ministers and music he simply doesn't like. He damns people to hell so easily, and shows no grace or compassion.
I was wondering if you guys would invite Bishop Bill Hammon to your show
Yes plz do
Karios Isn’t Bill Hamon one the founders of the NAR or am I confusing him with someone else? Last year Bill Hamon came to an AOG church in Peoria, Az. and said that particular church was a headquarters for war angels. God has him dedicate churches to be headquarters for war angels. He said that he was a general in the Lords army.
The Lord hates 6 things in Proverbs 16 16-19. He does not hate 7. 7 things are listed but the Lord hates 6 of them. Dr Brown please read that again.
I wish other Michael was on so we can see side by side how similar Dr Brown and Michael are - how they talk and how they look. It’s crazy isn’t it?!!!
Who decides who is an apostle? Can I be an apostle? Just hang out a shingle?
really that is a much better question than even a non-believer would want it to be. There is LITERALLY NO WAY to determine whose version of "the teaching"
is worth following or not.
It really smack of humans BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR USING THEIR OWN BRAINS when deciding whose counsel is worth heeding and whose is not.
And frankly I don't care if you hear it real-time or find it in an ancient book. Obviously the "editors" of such books, had no magical gifts of discrimination either.
Modern apostles (little "a") generally don't call themselves by that moniker.
Rather it's the fruit of that respective believer's ("apostle's) ministry -- which other saints recognize -- that guides believers to see the person as a biblical "apostle."
Who decides if you are a true Christian? Can you just call yourself one and then be one?
-> in the end it’s up to God and men will see the fruits of it.
Barnabas was not an Apostle like Paul with a capital A. Luke was referring to the Evangelism job that he and Paul were doing in acts. No one can be called an Apostle today but we can have an Evangelism gifting that is Apostolic in nature.
I believe the authority that Jesus delegated to the church was never meant to create a hierarchy among believers but was to be fully realized once we reach a unity and maturity in the faith. (Matt 23:8-12)
Those who are called apostles today in NAR call themselves "Apostles" not "apostles".
I believe Dr. Brown won this won from 43:01 to 45:01.
I know several friends who are part of the NAR and their views differ from basic Full Gospel beliefs . The large church that I attended was very powerful in the 80's but something happened and the Glory left so they tried just about everything to bring the Glory back and eventually ended up in the New Apostolic Reformation . The pastor is still there but now he goes by the title of Apostle . My thoughts about the NAR is it replaced much of what the WOF failed to do to become more widespread. KUNDILINI spread out at the same time the NAR started to take off . They seem to be submitting to the Roman Catholic church and the one world religion talked about in Revelation . I don't go to dark churches or listen to I Me and Self worship music . The focus of this religion seems to be inward and not evangelistic.
Sid Roth...........
Nuff said.
Peter the apostle was saved with the prayers of normal believers
Every human being is in the search of the supernatural period. The problem in the church is it no longer pursues the supernatural. In fact the church denies the supernatural by a large majority.
@25:06 there is a skip
AD800 to about AD1400 is a skip too.
I'm not a cessationist. That being said, I take it all with a grain of salt.
Why don’t you talk about the 7 pillars or 7 mountains that has no scriptural basis? That seems like it would clear it up…
Regarding Dr. Brown's assessment of people like Elijah List being super fringe, it sure feels more widespread your dad listens to it. People that are really upset about that stuff may just have family/friends listening to it.
I have good friends that watch those things, along with Flaspoint
Gee, okay but Elijah List is pretty standard and hugely popular in charismatic circles. I don’t know why but Christian’s in charismatic circles are definitely consuming a ton of Elijah List content. I am somewhat surprised but it’s being watched, enjoyed and shared by many many people I know. People are watching more Elijah List then ever. People freely admit it too it and talk as if it’s standard. There is no feeling that anyone I know think it’s fringe.
@@justmorenoise yeah, my dad watches it everyday and gets angry when I don't agree the "prophets" on there are "mighty men of God." I mean, one of those guys shakes and grunts like he is demon possessed. Yet he somehow claims I have bad discernment for not agreeing with the "prophecy" and have very little faith. He claims the Holy Spirit tells him what he is hearing is true. How do I argue against that???
@@joshh1693 yes, I know people too. Good people. The kind of believers I would call childlike and faithful. They would be the ones who if you had an extra meeting or conference- they would be there..
Other then being very gentle and almost pretending to like the content and just offering subtle questions I haven’t had much success discussing it.
It seems to manifest similar to an addiction.
I have to wonder if this has something to do with lack of connection and isolation.
We don’t see the attachment and loyalty to local church body or leaders like we did in the 90s.
People used to care what their pastor thought. People used to care what their family thought. People used to care what their fellow believers and friends thought. Discuss and feedback would naturally flow and you figure things out.
I think there is less and less genuine discussions, connecting and feedback, relational feedback so it’s like people are easy targets to falling for something that might look good to them.
You can see I’ve been racking my brain trying to understand.
It’s very sad. And not small group of people.
It makes me very sober about the fact I could be wrong about stuff. I wish it was addressed more seriously by the church. But then again what can they do.
“NAR-ly” land 😂
I see what you did there. 🙂
In fact I’m pretty sure Dr Brown is actually just Michael with a grey hair disguise!
oh right, gray is just a disguise, while orange hair is presidential.
The first rule of NAR appears to be that you do not talk about NAR. Kat Kerr has become the convenient fall guy, but what about Todd Bentley? Yes, I bring that up again because of the 100% failure amongst those associated with his 'apostolic alignment'. Where was the discernment (a gift, right?), where was the prophetic accuracy, where was the apostolic leadership? Forget Kerr, what about Johnson, Arnott, Ahn, Joyner, Wagner et al? They and many others were there, doing all that aligning stuff, anointing Bentley with Pierce's special 'Revival Oil' (which conveniently went on sale right after, so that we too could apostolically align ourselves in the comfort of our own homes) and (as if it couldn't get any weirder) putting a specially made ring on his finger? This 100% incorrect 'Apostolic' and 'Prophetic' event has been swept under the carpet with a supernatural broom, I guess.
What about Johnson and Vallotton et al and their 100% failed prophecies regarding 2020? Or Trump's supposed re-election (only touched on superficially here and without naming anyone). Happy to name Kerr (and rightly so), but why not name these guys? I wonder...
As has been mentioned elsewhere in the comments, what about Sid Roth? What about Kevin Zadai's multiple trips to heaven with Jesus the Saxophonist? What's so different about Zadai and Kerr?
What about Jones, Cain, Bickle and the KCP's bizarre prophetic track record?
What about Johnson and Vallotton et al's incessant praise for William Brahnam and their desire for his 'anointing'?
What about Apostle Krick and sealing the deal with a financial offering after she delivers you, just to make sure the door is closed?
Nothing.
Nada.
One Kat Kerr and we're done.
Last one out turn off the lights 😥
@ Tony Biondi : exactly!
Because RR and Dr Brown defend wolves, that's the only answer.
The hosts mentioned that charismatic tend to associate very easily. It may relate to why they will bend over backwards to avoid criticizing those who abuse authority and give false prophecies. The collateral damage hits everyone that way.
@@R-Becker to be fair, i think RR were a bit in awe of Dr Brown and trying to give him a fair hearing.. Dr Brown can really talk and go off on tangents so you dont deal with the real issues...
I have been grappling with how much do you mix with people into this stuff, how dangerous is it...
Hang on, to be fair Elijah List isn’t considered fringe though. The other names they mentioned are hugely popular in the actual congregation. Growing sub culture is growing rapidly. Way bigger views and following then RR or Dr. Michael Brown. The bizarre teachings and revelations are not a small corner of the internet. It is the popular stuff. I can’t go to a prayer meeting or church with out hearing all the so called fringe names latest videos quoted and championed. You are saying these names are unknown or insignificant but people in church know them and their teaching and they don’t know Dr. Brown. That’s where it’s heading. It’s uncomfortable and embarrassing to talk about but it’s not going away. Maybe the leaders don’t know. But talk to an average person attending the meetings and it’s not a little movement.
..also in the UK, Bill Johnson was hosting an evangelism training day at Westminster chapel in 2019. I went to sus him out. Gospel was main line but the evening teaching was all about mantles (Elijahs mantle) which is the theology behind their grave soaking antics.. and is a chapter in the Physics of Heaven book.
When it came to carrying on doing evangelism with churches who had been involved, Bethel had a whole database of churches in the UK who were aligned with them and new believers were only sent to these churches.
This is much further reaching than Michael brown gives it credit. A couple of vineyard churches in the UK have been taken over by Bethel. And then John Wimbers church in the USA has been taken over by Bethel in a very underhand maner.
The test for the Bible books was the Apostolic Testimony. Did it represent the teachings of a recognised member of the 12 Apostles. The one exception being Paul, But the Apostle Peter's testimony with regard to Paul and his missionary exploits and ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit brought him into the fold. It just makes sense then that these Apostles passing on of Jesus teaching are "Authoritative" for Christians. The NAR might claim new revelations, new Apostles and Prophets, but they are subject to and MUST not contradict the instruction of the Bible and must align with the testimony of the Holy Spirit. There are also a range of tests of the anointing that I would also apply and I go into these in my videos. This is one of the things I would use to distinguish myself from other "self proclaimed" prophets. I am interested in the issue "how can we tell what is from the Holy Spirit" and developing discernment criteria which I apply both to myself and to others. If I raise the profile of this issue I will thank the Lord as I believe it is one of the things he has put in me to do. This would indeed be "new teachings of the Lord" but I would say the evidence is everywhere that they are necessary.
Ummm...no.
1) "Acts" mentions the meeting between saul and simon-peter. It was less than an overjoyed brotherhood.
2) the apocrypha indicate futher details of which
3) among the apocryphal points is the role of "James the Just" which amounted to a triangle of rivals for leadership of the movement
4) "Luke" was not an apostle either. He was a disciple of Saul. Neither of them EVER personally met yeshua ("jeezus").
5) it is all very nice that "the twelve" are somehow "authoritative" except that at least one of them is claimed to have TURNED on yeshua
and directly participated in his arrest
6) but in the GOSPEL of same, he says he was ORDERED to do it. Which that entire "predestined fate to die as a savior/martyr" really kind
of seems to agree with
7) eventually simon-peter and saul met again and this resulted in the deaths of both at the hands of Nero. Show me how that was a good idea.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 Um 1, yes Peter and Paul had some contentions. This didn't stop Peter recognising God's ministry through Paul (2 Peter 3:16) Peter recognised Jesus' correction of him through the Holy Spirit. 4. Luke was not an apostle but traditionally he reported the testimony and acts of the Apostles and was THE early church historian. They met again because the Holy Spirit drew them both to Rome to their Martyrdom. None of this disputes what I said about the Apostolic Testimony criteria of the books that were selected and recognised for the New Testament. So sorry. you are wrong.
@@skyeprophet3564
let's clear up what happened:
Simon-peter and saul both were executed because Saul would not SHUT UP and thusly annoyed Nero.
When in Rome, you do NOT annoy the emperor, and expect to live to tell that story. Not only did Saul get killed but so did simon-peter. That was a very bad development for the ministry since at least ONE of them was the arguable leader of it.
Instead their TWO primary leaders were lost.
Since you are so familiar with that event, please tell me who therefore assumed the leadership role.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 The history of this stuff is recorded by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History or History of the Church. The leadership of the church rapidly devolved to regional bishops. Linus followed Peter in Rome. Eusebius records the other Bishops. All the Apostles were esteemed as leaders but their connection with Jesus gave them a level of authority that no bishop thereafter assumed.
@@skyeprophet3564
WRT "...All the Apostles were esteemed as leaders but their connection with Jesus gave them a level of authority that no bishop thereafter assumed...."
great, so you can also explain how saul of tarsus is now widely claimed to be an apostle.
Neither he nor Luke were handpicked by yeshua and the certainly were not of the "twelve" either.
If it ain't in the Bible do not bother with it.
Coloring outside the lines makes an ugly picture.
never mind about who drew the lines.
nothing to see here, just move on.
these aren't the droids you're looking for.
You may want to be more careful with your verbiage, brother. Words like "atheist," "Trinity," and "monotheism" are not in the Bible, yet they're biblical.
@@IndianaJoe0321
WRT "...Words like "atheist," "Trinity," and "monotheism" are not in the Bible, yet they're biblical..."
so I guess you wrote your own version or something. I hope you are not expecting everyone else to buy it.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 LOL !! I think you need to hear some teaching on bible translation me thinks...
@@JuliexSteadman
WRT " I think you need to hear some teaching on bible translation me thinks..."
feel free to explain it then.
What are things I'd like to know from Doug and Holly. They have named a lot of people. Have they actually sat down and talk with these people. He sat down and talk to Michael Brown OK who else have you sat down and really talk to and have that person tell you what they believe. From what I'm hearing about the bookand many others they have never done that. So to me all they're doing is spreading gossip
Criticizing “NAR” has become an income stream and opportunistic platform that reaps too many dividends to just give up. If Doug and Holly acknowledged their flawed methodology, ceased vilifying legitimate leaders in the Body of Christ, and only focused their work on the Kat Kerrs of the world, in short order they would be forgotten. The major legacy of the “discernment” critics is the breeding of pseudo intellectual grandeur and elitism in certain subcultures of the Body of Christ.
There is only One Capital 'A' Apostle (Hebrews 3:1). Even the twelve would have shuddered and recoiled at being considered anything or anyone (1 Corinthians 4:9-13). There is only One Capital 'P' Prophet (Acts 3:22). There is only One Senior Pastor (1 Peter 5:4). There is only One Capital 'T' Teacher (Matthew 23:8-12). There is only One Capital 'E' Evangelist (John 4). Everyone else is a junior... very junior in lowercase. Everyone else will have to give an account.
We should shudder when we hear men and women giving themselves and others titles and positions, especially when preceded by 'Senior' or 'Executive' or 'Lead' - did He not say, 'It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant' (Matthew 20:26)? Jesus clearly warns us against hierarchy, ' you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers' (Matthew 23:8) - we are meant to be a family not a business corporation.
The four-or-fivefold services of Christ in Ephesians 4 are functions not badges... 'Badges? We don't need no stinking badges'.
I don’t think it’s really that difficult to characterize marks of what most would call an NAR church….well anyone who doesn’t actually go to an NAR church….which I don’t recommend to anyone…..like seriously….ever….don’t support these guys!!!!!
1. They believe in big A apostles.
2. They believe that the church has somehow been incomplete for almost 2,000 years and that just now, during the last century, the offices Apostles and Prophets have been restored.
3. They believe in a mistranslation of Eph. 4 that the Greek word for equipping actually means alignment…it doesn’t
4. They believe that this “alignment” means churches need to follow words handed down by these new Apostles and Prophets.
5. They adhere to a hyper-Arminian form of post-mil eschatology….like, “Jesus is coming back….but we gotta make it happen”….which is totally unscriptural.
6. Most of the attendees don’t know scripture enough to know that they are being manipulated by these supposed Apostles and Prophets.
7. Scriptural illiteracy is encouraged as you’ll almost never hear the Word rightly expounded. The Apostles will just take any scripture and twist it to make it fit whatever their special revelation may be….it’s hard to become scripturally literate in this kind of environment. I literally just went to an NAR church or at least one with known ties and associations and listened as one of their “pastors” said that they all needed to speak the same kinda corporate lingo alluding to what great things the church could do if they were all using the same words….he brought up….and I kid you not….the Tower of Babel as an example of what they could accomplish! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
….yea, peace, I’m out 110%!
Nar is Australian for no. There is no Nar.
The Bible does not talk about EVERYTHING someone can go to heavan temporarily and see something not in the bible but it must be presented as anecdotal not doctrine so I would be I interesting not life changing if believed 😊
Michael Brown - a man of Renown.....just like the Nephelim referred to in Genesis 6! This man has his Dr. degree in Shistering & Huckstering! He's the Al Sharpton of the religious world! Like I heard the "respectable" pastor David Prasch say: anytime Brown smells $$$$$...... He's Right Their!! He is Sid Roth's best buddy - they probably claim to have gone to heaven together! Oye-Vai!!!
The false teachings of the NAR are so grave and New Age-like that we absolutely must stand up against those teachers.
A shameless plug for Mike Bickle at the beginning of this video! Your efforts to scrub Bickle from your videos have missed ones like this where you gush over Mike.
We removed the series on the Kansas City Prophets because we now doubt its prophetic history and also because of Mike’s egregious sin. You may want to watch our recent episode where we address this.
Michael Brown feigns ignorance about his associates so often that he’s lost credibility IMO.
Phony.
How about mini size apostles, medium size apostles and super size apostles ? You guys sound ridiculous. You all work so hard to make much to do about nothing. Nothing makes a santasist as quickly as a christian behaving badly.
I would not trust Michael Brown's assessment of "NAR." At all. He has compromised himself in no small degree with his poor treatment of the prophets, and "NAR" would be something he would associate with believing their message and narrative in this season.
lol
Asking prophets to repent and apologize for leading others astray is not treating them poorly.
I'm thinking Michael Brown is an apostle.
He also supports heretics like Sid Roth and Kevin Zadai.
1) welp at least you are thinking
2) WHAT you are thinking, is a later chapter
3) if rising water floats all boats, we kind of have to wait for the others to get were you are first
4) so I'm not waiting up.
@@tracyavent-costanza346 He speaks well, and with gentleness.
Dr. Brown does not bear the fruit of an "apostle." Biblically, his ministry falls under "teacher" and, sometimes, "evangelist."
@@IndianaJoe0321 Well, since you are evidently qualified to be the judge of such things, you might be an apostle. Very glad to meet you!
BS Brown. Yashua is not Charismatic. Who are you really worshipping with your strange fire and gleaming falsehood…