I think the plot hole with the bugs attack on BA is just because the director only got information about the book second hand. In the books the military was stupidly over competent. Instead of using hordes of poorly equipped and trained grunts, they relied on an extremely elite class of Mobile Infantrymen where only 10% would even graduate (Rico’s class started with 2000 trainees and under 200 would become mobile infantry). And each soldier was equipped with an advanced Mech suit which he would be armed with all kinds of automated systems including a nuclear bomb. Every officer was required to come from the ranks as a Private and have significant combat experience. And that was just the infantry, the other branches were trained just as hard. Also, the military in the books had no illusions to the capabilities of their enemies, and it was actually a lot more complicated with other species getting involved in the conflict and there was politics involved, with another species that Rico initially fights against being the “Skinnies” who gave information out to the Bugs regarding Earth.
The worst part is that, in the book, the destruction of Buenos Aires is the result of direct military assault by the pseudoarachnids (bugs). Overt, aggressive action that completely warrants an aggressive response. It's pretty telling that the only real criticism of militarism the movie pulls off that isn't some goofy jingoist propaganda reel is based on the something Paul, or more likely the writers, pulled directly out of the darkest part of their asses.
@@TheBookOfBryanDefinitely give it a read. It isn't even that long; barely 260 pages. It's basically Heinlein using a story to explore his own ideas around civic virtue and military camaraderie. Reading it would give some great context around the movie and why it failed so badly to satirize the book.
So in the book you can get full citizenship from any list of public services, up to and including military. The main character chooses military service, because he kind of looks down on the other positions that he could have taken. Honestly the book has a lot to say on the value of public service to society in general, not just military service.
The reason why Heinleins' works are hard to put on screen is that they were written in a way that was designed to be hard to READ. Heinlein experimented with the idea that phrases impact people differently due to age or generation. So in the ears of a young idealistic recruit, "service guarantees citizenship" sound noble and worthy. However, in the ears of a grizzled old WW2 veteran, "service guarantees citizenship " sounds dystopic and vile.
From what I've seen, when the right wing talks about the Federation, they're talking about the book. When the left talks about the federation, they're talking about the movie because they have never actually read the book. Also, one correction. The Federation doesn't require military service to get the vote, they just require service. The more demanding the quicker that service is over which is why enlisting in the military is the quickest path, but the entire point is that you sacrifice your time or energy so that you have some skin in the game. In fact Rico in the book makes a point to tell us that someone could be in a wheelchair and if that person asks for some service to perform, the government is legally required to provide some sort of task for that person to do.
You also have to note that the service can be anything. Civilian sector or military. You can give preferred sectors you want to serve in, but the state allocates you to a sector where it needs people and your degree is the basis for this evaluation. So if it weren’t for the war, most of these young lads would be sent into administration, construction and logistics.
Are you not leaving out the fact they said then that Asteroid was heading to Earth in the first place? And it looked like it didn't move its trajectory at all in that scene.
One thing to remember, is that the bugs in the book _did_ level BA in the book, and the first animated sequel does show a wormhole being used to get to Earth in a hurry. If the bugs shot the rock through one on their end that they knew would head towards Earth, then the odds of it being the Bugs that started the war goes up drastically. Also, another thing to remember is that the Federation could probably figure out where the rock came from pretty quickly as it would've appeared on their sensors well before impact. As for why they didn't do anything, well, there's two possibilities: 1. They saw it, but it was too late to realistically react and begin evacuations, so they allowed the locals to live out their lives unaware and panic free. or 2. They saw it, and someone in the higher-chains decided to use it as an excuse to attack the bugs. Both are possible, and the truth could be, in universe somewhere in between.
@@Tank50us Yeah, it's the starting point of the whole thing. I wouldn't put it past a general to see the asteroid approach and let it happen, to stomp out the bugs from ever doing that again.
Yep! Another reason I specifically stuck with discussing the film. From my understanding, the bugs in Heinlein's book also literally represented communists, which I find delightful. Hahaha
@@TheBookOfBryan Not just that, they're more portrayed as the perfect communists. They have no sense of self, and they work for the collective's best interests over their own survival.
You seem to have forgotten about the Mormon settlers who got wiped out by the bugs. The firm does flop when it comes to structuring the storyline. The settlers colonise a bug planet against Federation advice, the bugs wipe them out, then the asteroid levels BA, and then we get Klendathu and so on.
Not forgotten! I just didn't think it played much hand if any in the positions I've been seeing presented. The way I see it, the bugs didn't declare war on humanity over the Mormon outpost (and imo never did). They only killed the humans who had intruded on their planet. And humanity didn't declare war on the bugs in response to the Mormon outpost massacre either.
@@TheBookOfBryan Yeah, it's far more relevant if these were the book-accurate bugs with spaceships, since they have no concept of the self being an u-social species.
The settlers were overtly Anti-Federation, and by breaking away from the Feds they showed others that there is a possibility, a 'choice' to dismiss the Federation as a whole. The Federation is highly unlikely to allow such a thing to occur, and the Arachnids are a convenient excuse as to why a whole colony was eradicated. (Despite being unarmed, they supposedly killed an Arachnid Warrior as shown in the footage, however the way the colonists are piled up does not match the usual way Bugs kill people.)
We do find out there are intelligent bugs leading the drones. All Carmen ship did was knock the asteroid a little bit off course to hit Buenos Aires. If it hadn’t hit the asteroid, it looks like it was still going to hit Earth. Plus, they had already known about bugs and fought them before.
Yes, but we didn't learn this until after declaring war. The smallest change of course would vastly change the asteroids destination. It's clear in the film (not the book, to be clear) that Carmen was in actuality the one responsible.
@@TheBookOfBryan Yes we did. In the dissection scene. The professor seemed know the bugs were intelligent and dangerous. NPH was talking about the drone being stupid but dangerous unless you hit the specific part of the body. And no the asteroid was still going to earth.
It’s amusing to see the people who unironically embrace the dystopian future portrayed in Verhoeven’s satire. And get butthurt that he bastardized the novel and batshit crazy author’s ideas.
I think one reason why people believe Veerhoven is very able to satirize Fascism is because of his persona life history, but there's no discourse nor material about his own criticisms, commentaries, or satirizing of any Fascist's WRITING, THINKING, or PHILOSOPHY. For the most part, Fascism is something that we allow only its strongest opponents to define, and even that it is very vague and prone to clarity-purposed scrutiny. When it comes to the left and right, personally I believe that it's mostly if not exclusively the left that's wrong about Starship Troopers, especially when they're the only ones who really ever engage in any disrespect towards the film, novel, or any other part of the franchise, while everyone else has either a "Oh, I didn't know that, but that's neat" or a "I know and I don't care, it's entertainment, not a hitpiece against my very being" response.
"I think one reason why people believe Veerhoven is very able to satirize Fascism is because of his persona life history..." I've found it's because they really have no idea what Fascism actuality is. They think Fascism is having a certain facade. So, anything that has a person speaking with authority and confidence while wearing austere outfits MUST be Fascism. "I believe that it's mostly if not exclusively the left that's wrong about Starship Troopers..." That is 100% accurate.
Actually they love the 1st movie and hate the book. No one should like any other part of this franchise besides them, and that one old game. They hate the book because the military is more earnestly portrayed as "a can do no wrong" entity or is just generally painted in a better and more competent light when there are objectively horrific things about their society.
@@LoveHammerManEven the novel should be disliked? While the novel portrays a society that is more ideal standard as in concept, it doesn't really go out explain to describe itself as being infallible, the fact that horrific things can still happen just serves to debunk the notion that the federation is some Mary Sue government. Also, one reason why people like the more recent extermination game is because it takes elements from all over the franchise and plans to include them as part of the game content. Why should people like and respect only the first movie? Why should the rest of the franchise be hated?
@@Noscopenoproblem I said the movie AND the novel are the only good parts of the franchise. The most accessible parts for other people once they get into it are going to be the god awful sequel and CGI movies.
I'm an actual Fascist, it is right wing. The right/left dichotomy comes from pre French Revolution France were those on the right side of the King were his supporters who were pro-religion, pro-class cooperation (kind of), hierarchy, and monarchy. The left wing was anti-church, anti-monarchy, pro Jacobin, pro anarchist. Other than a few autistic monarchist larpers, fascists are the best example of the furthest tip of the right wing, not f4gg0ty Republicans who think they are libertarians.
@@RudyardGPolitically the opposite of you but yeah this is entirely true. Structural hierarchy is a left/right difference dating back to the existence of the term and fascism is somewhat hierarchical if you think about 🤔
@@TheBookOfBryan That's because in practice communism has never taken root in power structures. The problem with communism hasn't been the practice of communist ideals, it's been the propensity for communist idealism to be usurped by authoritarian elements. A fascist and a communist will have a completely different ideals.
Hitler was a liberal, Lincoln was a conservative Republican and freed the slaves and leftist dont ever realize they are the baddies and use media and pop culture to confuse facts. Great movie though love it and Helldivers amazing game.
Hitler was very much not a liberal, and which party does the kkk support now? Jesus christ, I can't believe that the SJW gamers were right on this one...
Guarantee 99% of the people discussing this on Twitter haven't read the book, you can literally finish it in 2 days
Yeah, because nobody needs it to discuss the movie
I think the plot hole with the bugs attack on BA is just because the director only got information about the book second hand.
In the books the military was stupidly over competent. Instead of using hordes of poorly equipped and trained grunts, they relied on an extremely elite class of Mobile Infantrymen where only 10% would even graduate (Rico’s class started with 2000 trainees and under 200 would become mobile infantry). And each soldier was equipped with an advanced Mech suit which he would be armed with all kinds of automated systems including a nuclear bomb. Every officer was required to come from the ranks as a Private and have significant combat experience. And that was just the infantry, the other branches were trained just as hard.
Also, the military in the books had no illusions to the capabilities of their enemies, and it was actually a lot more complicated with other species getting involved in the conflict and there was politics involved, with another species that Rico initially fights against being the “Skinnies” who gave information out to the Bugs regarding Earth.
The worst part is that, in the book, the destruction of Buenos Aires is the result of direct military assault by the pseudoarachnids (bugs). Overt, aggressive action that completely warrants an aggressive response. It's pretty telling that the only real criticism of militarism the movie pulls off that isn't some goofy jingoist propaganda reel is based on the something Paul, or more likely the writers, pulled directly out of the darkest part of their asses.
The book is a fun read
I am intrigued to check it out!
@@TheBookOfBryanDefinitely give it a read. It isn't even that long; barely 260 pages. It's basically Heinlein using a story to explore his own ideas around civic virtue and military camaraderie. Reading it would give some great context around the movie and why it failed so badly to satirize the book.
no its not lmfao its ass
So in the book you can get full citizenship from any list of public services, up to and including military. The main character chooses military service, because he kind of looks down on the other positions that he could have taken. Honestly the book has a lot to say on the value of public service to society in general, not just military service.
The reason why Heinleins' works are hard to put on screen is that they were written in a way that was designed to be hard to READ.
Heinlein experimented with the idea that phrases impact people differently due to age or generation. So in the ears of a young idealistic recruit, "service guarantees citizenship" sound noble and worthy.
However, in the ears of a grizzled old WW2 veteran, "service guarantees citizenship " sounds dystopic and vile.
From what I've seen, when the right wing talks about the Federation, they're talking about the book. When the left talks about the federation, they're talking about the movie because they have never actually read the book.
Also, one correction. The Federation doesn't require military service to get the vote, they just require service. The more demanding the quicker that service is over which is why enlisting in the military is the quickest path, but the entire point is that you sacrifice your time or energy so that you have some skin in the game. In fact Rico in the book makes a point to tell us that someone could be in a wheelchair and if that person asks for some service to perform, the government is legally required to provide some sort of task for that person to do.
You also have to note that the service can be anything. Civilian sector or military. You can give preferred sectors you want to serve in, but the state allocates you to a sector where it needs people and your degree is the basis for this evaluation.
So if it weren’t for the war, most of these young lads would be sent into administration, construction and logistics.
Are you not leaving out the fact they said then that Asteroid was heading to Earth in the first place? And it looked like it didn't move its trajectory at all in that scene.
10/10 👍
One thing to remember, is that the bugs in the book _did_ level BA in the book, and the first animated sequel does show a wormhole being used to get to Earth in a hurry. If the bugs shot the rock through one on their end that they knew would head towards Earth, then the odds of it being the Bugs that started the war goes up drastically.
Also, another thing to remember is that the Federation could probably figure out where the rock came from pretty quickly as it would've appeared on their sensors well before impact. As for why they didn't do anything, well, there's two possibilities:
1. They saw it, but it was too late to realistically react and begin evacuations, so they allowed the locals to live out their lives unaware and panic free.
or
2. They saw it, and someone in the higher-chains decided to use it as an excuse to attack the bugs.
Both are possible, and the truth could be, in universe somewhere in between.
We're forgetting about the bugs wiping out that colony.
@@ShiftyMcGoggles yup. No warning. No negotiation. No ultimatum. Just. Dead
@@Tank50us Yeah, it's the starting point of the whole thing. I wouldn't put it past a general to see the asteroid approach and let it happen, to stomp out the bugs from ever doing that again.
Yep! Another reason I specifically stuck with discussing the film.
From my understanding, the bugs in Heinlein's book also literally represented communists, which I find delightful. Hahaha
@@TheBookOfBryan Not just that, they're more portrayed as the perfect communists. They have no sense of self, and they work for the collective's best interests over their own survival.
You seem to have forgotten about the Mormon settlers who got wiped out by the bugs.
The firm does flop when it comes to structuring the storyline. The settlers colonise a bug planet against Federation advice, the bugs wipe them out, then the asteroid levels BA, and then we get Klendathu and so on.
Not forgotten! I just didn't think it played much hand if any in the positions I've been seeing presented.
The way I see it, the bugs didn't declare war on humanity over the Mormon outpost (and imo never did). They only killed the humans who had intruded on their planet. And humanity didn't declare war on the bugs in response to the Mormon outpost massacre either.
@@TheBookOfBryan Yeah, it's far more relevant if these were the book-accurate bugs with spaceships, since they have no concept of the self being an u-social species.
The settlers were overtly Anti-Federation, and by breaking away from the Feds they showed others that there is a possibility, a 'choice' to dismiss the Federation as a whole. The Federation is highly unlikely to allow such a thing to occur, and the Arachnids are a convenient excuse as to why a whole colony was eradicated. (Despite being unarmed, they supposedly killed an Arachnid Warrior as shown in the footage, however the way the colonists are piled up does not match the usual way Bugs kill people.)
We do find out there are intelligent bugs leading the drones. All Carmen ship did was knock the asteroid a little bit off course to hit Buenos Aires. If it hadn’t hit the asteroid, it looks like it was still going to hit Earth. Plus, they had already known about bugs and fought them before.
Yes, but we didn't learn this until after declaring war.
The smallest change of course would vastly change the asteroids destination. It's clear in the film (not the book, to be clear) that Carmen was in actuality the one responsible.
@@TheBookOfBryan Yes we did. In the dissection scene. The professor seemed know the bugs were intelligent and dangerous. NPH was talking about the drone being stupid but dangerous unless you hit the specific part of the body. And no the asteroid was still going to earth.
Couldnt have said it better myself.
It’s amusing to see the people who unironically embrace the dystopian future portrayed in Verhoeven’s satire.
And get butthurt that he bastardized the novel and batshit crazy author’s ideas.
Why is it dystopian?
Thank you for not censoring anything.
That would be heresy
As has been noted recently by some faceless yet insightful internet denizen "Trench coats =/= Fascism. Fascism is more than just a fashion choice."
I think one reason why people believe Veerhoven is very able to satirize Fascism is because of his persona life history, but there's no discourse nor material about his own criticisms, commentaries, or satirizing of any Fascist's WRITING, THINKING, or PHILOSOPHY. For the most part, Fascism is something that we allow only its strongest opponents to define, and even that it is very vague and prone to clarity-purposed scrutiny.
When it comes to the left and right, personally I believe that it's mostly if not exclusively the left that's wrong about Starship Troopers, especially when they're the only ones who really ever engage in any disrespect towards the film, novel, or any other part of the franchise, while everyone else has either a "Oh, I didn't know that, but that's neat" or a "I know and I don't care, it's entertainment, not a hitpiece against my very being" response.
"I think one reason why people believe Veerhoven is very able to satirize Fascism is because of his persona life history..."
I've found it's because they really have no idea what Fascism actuality is. They think Fascism is having a certain facade.
So, anything that has a person speaking with authority and confidence while wearing austere outfits MUST be Fascism.
"I believe that it's mostly if not exclusively the left that's wrong about Starship Troopers..."
That is 100% accurate.
Actually they love the 1st movie and hate the book. No one should like any other part of this franchise besides them, and that one old game.
They hate the book because the military is more earnestly portrayed as "a can do no wrong" entity or is just generally painted in a better and more competent light when there are objectively horrific things about their society.
@@LoveHammerManEven the novel should be disliked? While the novel portrays a society that is more ideal standard as in concept, it doesn't really go out explain to describe itself as being infallible, the fact that horrific things can still happen just serves to debunk the notion that the federation is some Mary Sue government. Also, one reason why people like the more recent extermination game is because it takes elements from all over the franchise and plans to include them as part of the game content. Why should people like and respect only the first movie? Why should the rest of the franchise be hated?
@@Noscopenoproblem I said the movie AND the novel are the only good parts of the franchise.
The most accessible parts for other people once they get into it are going to be the god awful sequel and CGI movies.
@@LoveHammerMan My apologies.
Fascism isn't actually far right, but I guess who's listening?
I'm an actual Fascist, it is right wing. The right/left dichotomy comes from pre French Revolution France were those on the right side of the King were his supporters who were pro-religion, pro-class cooperation (kind of), hierarchy, and monarchy. The left wing was anti-church, anti-monarchy, pro Jacobin, pro anarchist.
Other than a few autistic monarchist larpers, fascists are the best example of the furthest tip of the right wing, not f4gg0ty Republicans who think they are libertarians.
What? Surely not. Next your going to tell me that fascism and bolshevism both stem from the same 19th-century political philosophy. Balderdash, I say!
@@RudyardGPolitically the opposite of you but yeah this is entirely true.
Structural hierarchy is a left/right difference dating back to the existence of the term and fascism is somewhat hierarchical if you think about 🤔
In practice, there is virtually no difference between fascists and communists beyond the fact they hate each other.
@@TheBookOfBryan That's because in practice communism has never taken root in power structures. The problem with communism hasn't been the practice of communist ideals, it's been the propensity for communist idealism to be usurped by authoritarian elements. A fascist and a communist will have a completely different ideals.
Hitler was a liberal, Lincoln was a conservative Republican and freed the slaves and leftist dont ever realize they are the baddies and use media and pop culture to confuse facts. Great movie though love it and Helldivers amazing game.
Hitler was very much not a liberal, and which party does the kkk support now?
Jesus christ, I can't believe that the SJW gamers were right on this one...
This implies that leftists nowadays would commit genocide which is ridiculous bud
Hitler wasn't a liberal and who does the KKK support now?