Augmentation Evokers Are Still A Problem In Mythic+
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- 🔴 Live Monday-Friday here: / naguura
I am an ex-World First raider in World of Warcraft, streaming and casting high end PvE content in MMORPG's. I occasionally also stream other games!
MY SOCIALS
Twitch ▷ / naguura
RUclips Second channel ▷ / @naguurashorts
TikTok ▷ / naguura
Twitter ▷ / naguura
Instagram ▷ / naguura
Discord ▷ / discord
For business, please contact: business@naguura.tv
#worldofwarcraft #naguura #gaming
this video is probably pretty good and interesting but i think i'm going to instead not watch it, head into the comments, and argue against what i think it probably says (something elitist i'm sure)
This is a good take. I didn’t read it but I know the comment is in opposition to Naguura, who is elitist (probably). Now it’s time to make a disingenuously titled Reddit post about this video.
LOUD NOISES!!
Dratnos and Noggura would make children that were beautiful and smart, we need this to happen
@@Dan-Scott That's a reach
69th like nice
Saying that healers are not needed in a dungeon is also a sign of ignorance. Judging by the 1% (maybe less) of exceptional players that are playing in entire other league is hilarious. The majority of groups need a healer.
I fully support more supports being added into the game and would love it if Hpal was swapped in there.
Decline decline and decline. I am so tired of this support playstyle trying to fit its way into wow. i loved playing healers but watching this stupid non existent role (support) in the game trying to find its way in has pushed me away from healers. i will not touch any of the heal specs because they're playstyles are all soooo unfun. when i pick a HEALER i pick it because i wanna HEAL i want to keep my group alive with big heals and feel good that no ones dying.... not pick it to heal random big dmg that happens every 5 minutes in a pull and then for the next 4 minutes im dpsing. if i wanted to dps i could of just played WW, ret, Shadow, Balance/feral, Dev, Enhance/ele, and etc. Bring back healers to actually be healers!
@@billjohnson2307 Ok then do that? nothing is stopping you from just pushing healing buttons. like at all?
sounds kinda like a personal problem that you want to force onto us. you are more than welcome to not push dps buttons and in fact healer dps doesn't really ever contribute to a key being timed or not. as long as the party is alive you can push into old 20's now 10's with no issues.|
and its not stupid again personal issue not game issue.
No.
Technically, Paladins and Shamans were essentially support hybrids when they came out. It got away from that over time, but they essentially provided a lot of support utilities on top of their main role.
The problem I see with augvokers is that there is no other support class atm in the game. If Blizzard balances the game around needing a support class without adding any more support classes, then we are forced to bring augvokers and that limits the available spaces for dps specs. If they don't balance around having a support in party, that still makes augvokers broken because they buff the rest. I like the suggestion to have 6 players in the group, one of them being a support queue but for that we need more support specs. That or remove augvoker from being a support. Make it a tank wearing mail.
My hope was, when they made Aug, that the next expansion would add more support specs, but that didn't happen.
In PvP Spriest, Ele Sham, Enhancement Shaman are every bit as much of a support as Aug. Could make a case for Devastation and Balance Druid too.
I’d go further to say Spriest and Ele Shaman are BETTER at supporting in PvP than Aug
only other waay i see is to make it more balanced around 6 player buff effect however that removes it from 5 player content. Other Method is when not bufffing their damage potential increases by a significant amount.
how would adding more support specs make more room for dps specs lol. Did you even think before writing this. Itll just become aug1 or aug2 + 2 dps, instead of just aug + 2 dps. The issue is the design of the spec. If u wanna be a support so bad play a healer or a prot paladin, but they won't because Aug is easy
It should have been a tank spec since the beginning
I would like to hear your opinion about the tank issue we have right now as well. About how VengDH seems mandatory in every dungeon because of the amount of cc they provide
"Mandatory" forreals?? Must be no keys ever cleared by anyone else then with that kind of verbage. Or perhaps players are exacerbating a problem with their extreme verbiage again. I play all the tanks and I max out my loot just fine each week from mythic plus and all tanks are able to clear mythic raid just fine as well, wtf more do you need? There will always be one that's better than others in different types of content. Sounds like regurgitation of the takes we hear from the same few streamers. They're going to hear this crying because a lot of you are repeating it, the same exact words from the streamers, and they're going to water down our classes again(i.e. all tanks have the same exact type and amounts of CC otherwise one will always be better and "mandatory"). You could always play the game for yourself and see that at 99.9% of levels of play you can play all tanks and at 100% of levels of play that reward gear or better gear you can play all tanks. Maybe don't fuck over class identity or potentially ruin the game over tuning for the .01% or the people that listen to streamers. Try playing the game for yourself and use your own brain for your own opinion. Or at least use different words so it's not immediately recognizable that you're feeding off regurgitation like a baby bird.
@@Azari_Di mean he's right in a sense. Yea all tanks are pretty viable for 98-99% of content. But I don't think it takes a genius to see there's an absolute gaping chasm between VDH and anything else. No they shouldn't tune around the 0.1%. no they shouldn't obliterate VDH. But also, again, it doesn't take a genius to see that VDH can just do ungodly pulls that are just straight impossible for any other tank. Idk why you're slamming a rant when he brings up a solid point. VDH is that far ahead RN that it brings the same problem as Aug. At a certain level peoples lives are so much better with it than without that they start playing the spec not the player.
@@Azari_D VDH just OP with this many CC. For example we have currently a BDK, RPala, BM, Havoc, RDudu comp for m+.
I want to reroll from Havoc, since basicly I can't play solo, because 90% of the groups are filled with VDH and they don't really stack 2 from the same class, especially when Havoc bring close to nothing to the group (+5% mgc is there from VDH, no BL, no CR, no dispell etc, only some extra CC)
But from our comp perspective, I can't afford to reroll to SHPriest because we would lack CC as BM hunters also don't have many.
@@Azari_D Don't think you understand my point. To the point of gearing your characters you can do whatever the hell you want. But if you're trying to get your score to the 3.4k margin, ppl barely invite other tanks that are not VengDH. My brother is a Blood Dk w/ very high score and it gets repetitive and unfair how we are not invited to the keys based on the perception of the community over DHs. And to be very fair, I'm sure some of it is a matter of perception, but when stats are so overwhelmingly biased towards the fact that there is a 300io gap between the highest Veng over the highest blood means closing your eyes to the issue that one is better than the other
So something I feel somewhat compelled to point out is that it's not aug being unique/having unique utility/etc is what makes it hard to balance. Asymmetrical balance is a pretty well-established thing in the industry, and it's certainly trickier than symmetrical, which is itself not exactly easy, but it's still very doable. Just look at Brood War for the perennial example; three very different factions, each with wildly different abilities and playstyles, all pretty well balanced and with no clear winner at all. Aug's balance problem is not that no other class can offer the same utility, that can be tuned through damage taxes, tuning the utility itself, etc.
The problem is that aug's value to a group varies to an insane degree based on both player skill and a laundry list of factors entirely outside of the player's control. Things like when the other dps use cooldowns, how good the aug is at aligning buff windows, the exact timings of combat in the dungeon/raid encounter and how it lines up with aug's 30s cycle, whether group positioning (both that demanded by raid mechanics and players naturally shuffling around) causes range issues to the priority targets, etc, etc. All of these things have an immense impact on aug performance, and it creates a hugely varied output.
And as a result, it's nearly impossible to balance aug output well. If you balance for all those factors being handled correctly and everything going optimally, then you're balancing for the top 0.1%, the people with the highest possible skill levels playing in extremely well coordinated groups that make maximum usage of it the class. And this would indeed keep the numbers reasonable for top end players. However, it would also make the average player, the guy doing pug m+ on Friday nights, completely goddamn useless, and functionally kill the class outside of aforementioned top end play. But if you balance for the average player, then the top end can push it to a truly ludicrous degree, which is basically what we've got right now.
Getting it properly balanced, such that aug isn't mandatory on the top end, but also not completely useless in the low-mid tier, is a herculean task, and one they haven't quite managed quite yet.
Thing is, if a DPS slot was replaced by support, it would probably be healthier for the game. Lots of people used to play healer because it was ‘chill’, now it’s hyper stressful so those people are forced into playing DPS. Support could be the new chill role
Naguura, I know that you’re a very high end player and keys are very easy for you, but for the more casual / mid players like me, I’m pushing my limits purely by pugging to time m10 keys. For me the time limit for keys are a very great challenge. It doesn’t need to be harder than it is. If you want harder than you just up your key levels
In essence you're saying aug bad because key balance bad, not that aug is actually bad for the game. Yeah, obviously, if you're playing in an organized high-end group, you're going to play around aug and draw out all of its potential. That's true of any class/spec. For the majority of the community that is just not the case. People invite aug, and have zero clue how to play with it. When you play aug in a pug group 90% of the time you're sitting there wondering why you're supporting 2 underperforming dps, and a tank that doesn't pull around breath.
Maybe I don’t play high enough keys but I have not played a single key this season with an Aug evoker. No one in our raid plays one either.
People act like Augmentation Evoker is the first support class ever, but thats not true.... that was hybrids in general, but esp Shaman and Paladin were designed to be faction specific group support classes, but could also dps and heal/tank. They brought many good group/raid buffs that helped your party out.... afterall, ENHANCEMENT is just a synonym or another way of saying AUGMENTATION. I suppose Druids too would be your classic hybrid that was kinda support class with the buffs it brought and stuff liek battle rez. The problem, atleast in earlier versions of the game, was the HYBRID TAX and the idea that hybrid dps should do less dps then pure dps because they could also heal or tank. Pure DPS also tended to have better CC and AOE then hybrids, sometimes but not always.
But from what I've seen and heard, Augmentation evokers have a bit of a hybrid tax where they do lower dps then the average class because they bring that utility like buffing other specs or roles. I think eventually Augmentation dps will get balanced and its buffs will get nerfed somewhat so it doesn't feel as required for a group or raid or M+. Its kinda like how Enhancement was brought for WF totem and bloodlust.... and the DPS was average but not top of the charts, but eventually they buffed the dps and spread out the group buffs so they weren't unique to just shaman.
I do get the idea of having a support role in groups..... like a 5 man team, with tank heals support and 2 dps (maybe one melee and one caster for balance). IF the game was designed around that model it could work........ classic hybrids or support classes like shaman paladin druid could fit in support role along with evokers, plus I'd prob say Monk could find a way to be a more support class, could even add a new 4th spec for the red phoneix/crane aspect and be a ranger/caster dps with chi bursts waves and jade lightning plus some group support buffs or energizing other players with chi to be better at their role of dps heals or tank. The Bard class archetype is known to be a support class, in the mmorpg RIFT the Ranger was one of the 4 main class archetypes but could pick a soul/spec to be a hunter, a rogue, or a bard.... and the bard played music that buffed party to do more dmage or haste buff to cast faster, also debuffed the enemy, and did dps thru their weapon but RIFT was balanced around the idea of a support class that gave buffs or could offheal...... it also even had support classes like a warlock that can be considered support if their speciality is debuffs that weaken the enemy to take more damage or have lots of CC/AOE that can help "support" in some way by keeping enemies out of the way. But RIFT was designed around a support class. WoW had support classes, the hybrids, but they had the hybrid tax which eventually they got rid of.... which was a good thing I think. I think if Augmentation evokers become as required as people claim they are for M+ hgih keys, then they may end up with a nerf to their support buffs or ability to augment other classes but get thier personal dps buffed instead...... basically get the same treatment as your Enhancement Shaman did when it was in melee groups, or a Elem Shaman or Shadow Priest for your caster or healer groups. The game supports.... support classes, as long as they dont feel too powerful or too required.
Must have never played WoW back in 2005 when you needed a specific set of classes/spec. Thus people in guilds rolled the class/spec/geared for what the guild needed not what they wanted. That being said, more support roles or specs I agree.
I think the new m+/dungeon gameplay is slowly converting into a new fulltime role. Just like tank/dps/healer there is going to be a 4th role as support. I think when people give Blizzard the chance to add new specs into the game instead of just freaking out right away (talking to you priests). Then we'll see some new an exciting changes to the game. For those who are like "nO i'Ve BeEn pLaYiNg fOr 20 YeArS aNd i DoN't LiKe ChAnGeS" my suggestion to you is get on train or hop off. Because this train is leaving with or without you. Don't gatekeep changes because you're too scared to be left behind.
I think Aug as it stands has a 0% chance of not being meta in TWW. The same rules will still apply for M+ group buffs, BR and Lust. The other issue with AUG is the feedback loop with them being a int class. I think we will have to see what happens with the so far untouched healer classes and numbers tuning to see what the meta will be but it will always be BR+Lust and as many buffs as you can get. Agreed with suitability I can live anything natty on a 15 but still have bear and bark. Im guessing Mage and Aug for first 2 spots in Season 1 meta.
With Aug implemented as it is, it's a slippery slope.
Could a Support Healer work with doing less healing that normal? And if a Support Healer did as much healing as a normal healer ON TOP OF support, why would you bring any other healer?
And to those saying "just make Disc/ Holy/ whatever support" absolutely not. You don't flip an existing spec to a new role in a 20 year old game. That's not what Disc/ Holy/ whatever mains signed up for.
I'm sorry for this type of players, but every time we talk of problems that blizzard have a lot of difficulty to resolve, it's because casual players wouldn't understand and would be angry... don't u think that blizzard should just stop listening too much this kind of players ? I mean, yes there is maybe 80% of players like this, but they understand nothing about how the game work. Listen to them can't be a good option for the game health..
Create another support type aka a Shamans name embued/hybrid/embedded and allow 6-man M+ lol. Just like the days of 10-man raids create 6-man M+ for those who want to do it, and make it feel like an anime. Edit didnt watch the entire video before making the comment and she made the same recommendation lol.
Pretty garbage takes by nagg ura. Aug is fine if you tune it to be fine. Sure pros can use it better than plebs, but tune it based on the pros. Then its a spec that elite players can leverage for more survivability and utility over damage at high keys and bad players dont need to play the spec at all because they'll be a lot better off with just devastation. This way Aug wont ruin the overall meta and still has a competitive place in the game. Acting like this is somehow rocket science is nonsensical.
Only overpowered if the DPS are good on the team. Missed some timing even with 83% ebon might uptime, due to subpar DPS in the group
Look at other games where "support" works, the problem is not the Aug, it's how Blizzard implemented it. The Bard in FF14 is a good example on what a support should be
Dancer is basically Aug in FFXIV
@@CuthiePatootie Dancer and Bard are dps specs with support sprinkled on top, Aug is not and does healer dps without a group but has too strong support
The difference is that dancer and bard do shit tons of damage and also add a bit of support on top
I think your comment actually proves her point though. Bard has been broken and completely OP in FFXI since 2003. So many current strategies require or are completely trivialized by having a geared REMA bard, Corsair, or Geomancer.
This is a bad comparison.
The 2 games don't work similarly in the slightest.
FFXIV is built on static rotations with no variety, on fights with guaranteed 100% uptime, only 1 gamemode where this discussion matters and the buff classes play like any dps class but they just happens to have some abilities that increases others dps.
Besides choosing dance partner as Dancer, there is no meaningfull difference between a buff dps and a pure dps.
There is no crowd control needed or existing or speed buffs that are needed. Haste will ruin rotations because of the design of them and there is nothing like a single target defensive that would have any meaning. Not even tanks because every mechanic and tank is designed to always have something up and there is no crit from the boss so any extra defensive would a waste. No rot damage either so you're not helping the healers because the healers already have enough ways to heal each mechanic.
Genuinly. Comparing the 2 games serves no purpose. It makes no sense in this discussion.
Just take out the survival boosting tools that are exclusive for them. Just leave their buffs that increase offensive stats. No more buffing tanks and healers, no more shields for the group. No versatility buffs.
Discipline would be perfect candidate to be switched to a Support spec imo. 🙊
Yeah, they gotta either add a Support Role and add more Support Specs.. or remove Aug.
btw. @Naguura you mentioned that healers will be dropped more and more, as long as Aug stays overtuned. Which healers? They dont have to be dropped, because they have already dropped out themselves. This is also not a problem caused by Aug being strong, but imho 'cause they are tired of babysitting DPSers who dont want to use their utility (e.g. for affixes, stuns, interrupts). it is even easier to find a tank nowdays. Of course we are talking about two different worlds, since I am referring to mid-level keys, where aug is irrelevant.
I think her point isnt about healers quitting the game, more about not needing a healer in the dungeon run at all
So Evoker should all be Aug and we trait who we buff - tanks, dps, heals
DC Universe Online had a 4th role called "Controllers" whom provided CC and had abilities that restored mana/energy to other classes.
Adding a support was smart. It caters to two groups of people. The lowest least skilled pug benefits from a skilled support making life easier.
The highest skilled group coordinates better and pushes higher more skilled content.
The only group that doesnt benefit is the middle group, because they are all too busy blaming each other for why they arent in the high skill group, while also making fun of the low skill group.
Captain main In lotro here. I agree I just love being a captain because I help the groups be less stressful.
I think if a 4th role for support were added, we would simultaneously see a few specs change over rather than just adding new specs. Imagining Survival, Enhancement, Shadow or Disc priest, Arcane, Sub, Balance, Demo, and then maybe a few new specs.
Tbh I’d rather see Aug move towards tank than have a 4th role or have Aug move more towards exclusively dosing. Tanks already are a utility packed role that sits between healing and damage. Aug reads like a spec designed with potential tanking in mind.
it's quite a bit nerfed tbh, I haven't ran into many aug evokers this season
I'd like to see more support specs or build options. I don't know if Blizz would ever go back and add a bunch of support specs but having dual talent nodes which give the option of damage vs support could be cool. I have just started trying out Aug and it's a very fun spec to play
....let's see what totemic shaman will look like in terms of providing defensiveness to the group. The fact that blizzard is leaving the spec for last, makes me think that they want to do something bold with it.
Aug isnt a hybrid heal spec. It buffs your stats.
I think adding more support is the only answer, its seems pretty easy to do, u have disc priest, ench shaman, ele shaman, surv hunter, and a 3rd DH spec that would be SUPER ez to just add a few more spells to make them support more. Keep aug as the clear "buff class" have the other do less damg but really support the group
This is definitely not the way. You're basically asking Blizzard to go out back shoot these classes in order for them to become support specs. Why? Because you believe adding more fuel to problem would somehow solve it?
The true "only answer, its seems pretty easy to do" is to delete aug by making it a dps spec or a tank spec. Adding more compound variables does not make "fix" the problem, just adds more future problems.
go with 4 tanks one super heal dd hybrid and xD
They should fix healers before they fix aug
just make every healer a full on support. u dont need heals in the current state of the game
Remove Support specs and we're good to go :)
I see what you are saying, and i somewhat agree.
But IF Aug were to only buff damage dealers, their damage profile would be kinda bad and clunky.
If you run a M+ with three damage dealers (non aug), and one DPS dies, you'd still have 2 DPS, so the pull might still be manageable.
However, if you run with an Aug, and one DPS dies, you're left with essentially 1,5 DPS instead of 2.
Dealing damage through others means you don't just rely on your own skill, but also you have to rely on your teammates being alive, AND being good DPS.
That means you could go the "High risk, High reward", where aug is very good damage dealers, but it requires everyone to be alive (for obvious reasons), so if everyone is playing flawlessly, an Aug is amazing, but if one DPS is underperforming, and dying often, you are both dead weight.
If you just keep them as average DPS, nothing special, it's essentially a dead spec.
Why play something that when if played perfectly is still just average, but if played bad (or getting bad teammates) is dead weight.
Most augs atm aren't exactly topping the meters, but they do enough damage, and bring great utility, so they are taken because of that, which is kinda unfair.
But if you make it so you can't buff the tank or healer, Aug would atm become more dead than Survival Hunters.
Either bring in more Support classes, or simply make Aug a regular DPS spec.
WoW players for the past 20 years “Make a support class Blizzard. Make a bard.” - “WoW players immediately after the support class is added, *balance whining*”
There's a difference between a Support class and a Multi-class. It seems they are the latter? (Old school player returning to wow)
I just wish they’d add other support specs to offset Aug.
yes, more passenger specs that are unfun to play. Surely wont turn from 1 spec being mandatory, into "one of multiple" specs being mandatory.
Aug being a dps spec....needs to ONLY support dps. Allowing soooo much survivability in mythic plus keys when you reach the point where surviving the damage is more important then the dps the only option is to bring an aug or have every class start sacrificing priority secondary stats for verse. If aug just buffed dps it would be fine.
I think Augvokers are in a good spot being kinda broken yet relatively unattractive to play because doing lower dps themselves.
And Blizzard seems to shift more and more into the more casual friendly tuning, they dont care if something is a little bit broken and I think thats ok...
Think current Aug is an experiment. Either they work out how it's supposed to work in healthy way, make entire game more interesting and more specs will be made.
Or they find Augmentation not fixable issue, and remove it ... and they will go back to pile of "silly ideas we once tried", togather with Surrender to Madness ;-)
I know tanks love to control their own health pool, but the self sustain of most classes is just crazy. No one should be able to solo the last 30% of a boss fight with no heals. The self sustain should be reduced. Not taken away. Blood DK is based on self sustain and that's great, but their should still be limits. All self sustain should be looked into and balanced. Healer's need to be necessary. Balancing the threat of death and the ability to do damage is what should balance fights, not just pew pew.
I wonder if Blizzard views it like this, rather than being a problem it's a fun additional way to bring value to the group. So maybe first we should be clear about defining what we mean as a "problem" as a community which I believe is simply that, because it is so valuable, 1 slot in a group feels required to be taken up by a single spec, and that there is no alternative to it.
If I want to play a DPS I have 25 spec options for flavor, if I want to play a Support I only have 1.
I hear an argument for balance drood being support.
WoW players for 20 years “Make a support class, make a bard” - WoW players now “Blizzard why did you make a support role it’s not fair”
2:55 She's been eating too much sushi she's talking about tuna rolls and tuna class on discussions 🤦♂
Would be nice if we could get the chat on the video to see what you're responding to tho.
7:48 Shroud skips were extremely nerfed in BFA by just putting Awakened as the seasonal affix.
I've been saying the same thing since Aug came out - there needs to be a dedicated support role with a variety of options for support to work in WoW, espesually in dungeons; 1 Tank, 3 DPS, Support, a healer. As it currently stands, Aug pretty much gets carried in the highest keys with minimal effort and dungeon knowledge required and continues to take a spot from everyone else. My only concern is it reaches a degen point of 2 supports instead of a healer at higher keys since everything becomes a 1-shot anyway.
For removing defensives, i could see it being an issue with solo content like a dps player soloing a rare elite or doing old dungeons/raids for transmogs etc.. having to be asking general chat for a healer to solo a beefy mob would be annoying but for key runners and raids it would be nice for healers to do that. But then we are getting into the realm of relying heavily on the healers even more, healers are already expected to heal, deal with affixes, and now defensives....i wonder why there isnt alot of people that like to heal.
As for removing spells to add more and reduce button bloat. One idea that helps with that is more choice nodes. For instance, warriors could have a choice node with thunderous roar or champions spear. One or the other even though thunderous roar is the better option it still gives players a choice to have either and reduce button bloat.
The problem is class balance in terms of utility and the fix should address it.
There is an environment where protection against one-shots by self-defensives and externals is needed as well as a need for lots of CC to allow pulling big. Some classes that provide a raid buff and external healing/defensive cds (mass barrier, embrace, +5% stamina, aug stuff...) as well as some specs that have comparatively high amount of CC (VDH, mages...) are thereby much more valuable than other specs that lack support but do equal dmg or even worse additionally do less good dmg or are squishy. Hence the current meta.
So a solution would be to buff/balance support and survivabilty capabilities in general (some classes got a lot more with the new talent trees than others) as well as maybe reduce the amount of dmg aug provides to make the tradeoff of playing with one a harder choice or straight up make aug just another dps/healer spec with good utility.
I really hope they don't remove Aug from the game because it is problematic for one mode of game play.
i agree with you on aug but i think mythic plus is better for the playerbase with the timers similar to season 3. maybe a reduce timers but reduce punishments for deaths or something. it just feels bad when a timer is short enough that one wipe can kill the timer. also its easier to just nerf the self healing of dps players than trying to balance dungeons in a way that make healers even more needed. alhough most players still need a healer. top end players may not need them but they are not that important in the scheme of things
If they want supports to work i think it has to bring unique things. Buffing allies will always be inpossible to tune and cause the same issues people have with PI. Making it do just raw healing and DPS is also an issue for reasons you already stated. I think if they want it to work it has to do like healer damage, small off healing maybe half of healers hps. But a majority of the kit has a focus on things like CC and group defensives like zephyr. Then you at least have a decision between playing cleaner with less safety nets and saving time . And playing slower but more controlled and comfortable.
I guess in a way support roles should primarily center around indirect support instead of direct support. Something that helps group mobs faster and CC them like a VDH does increases everyone's damage and does speed up keys considerably without directly influencing the classes themselves. People want them to be brought for convenience but when you start missing BRH totem dam checks bc you're not directly buffing allies to make up the dps gap, it doesn't allow it to become a "requirement" and becomes an actual decision based upon your groups capabilities instead. It's more of a balance of can the mob control or defensive power they bring save us 0.5 DPS worth of time? Whereas with Aug it's not even a gamble.
This was exactly my point in S2 when Aug came out. Because as a DPS playing at around 0.1% purely in a pug, I was instantly declined as a ret paladin, because it was just exodia everywhere. PS: at the time, I was 4th highest rated ret in the world - still declined. Because a support “stole” one spot from a DPS player base, which is massive. They should just add the 6th role.
But when I brought it up, everyone was against it, even my guild.
I even think it would be cool to add many new specs to other classes who could become supports. Because you don’t balance healers around DPSs or tanks. You balance healers around other healers, right.
And it just gives Blizzard the opportunity to freshen up the game with a new support every 2 patches, till we get like 5. So it would imho be beneficial for Blizzard as well, because people love playing new classes. So more people would pay and play.
this! but now imagine playing dev or pres
I ended up dumping my evoker main and going back to my dh because of aug... its so sad because they could have done something really cool with aug
yeah, I mean ... they had good intentions. Support role is something that people wanted for ages. But they picked a wrong class to get that support role. Because even just evokers kit in general is busted. Lust, aoe knock, aoe soothe, DR, speed buffs. It has it all. So to even further ADD TO THAT ... was crazy.
You would bring a healer and a hybrid if a single healer is not enough in certain fights.
Reduse the 1000000000000000buttons and let each speck do what they suppose to do!
WoW can give more support abilities to DPS.
not needing healers wont be the worst since there arent many of them anyway haha
DELETE AUG !!!!!!!!!
Wow was never made for a support class to be played.
I hope that they add a support role, and give other glasses support specific specs
@16:00 i liked the priest knockback and i miss it sooooo much!
Since Aug Evoker released, i've been dreaming of them adding 6 man dungs - would it be a gd idea? idk - is it interesting? yes
Edit: i also agree that supports should be specialized - defense buffs/dmg buffs/heal buffs/smtg new? buffs
maybe in a few years when we have multiple support roles, imagine the queue times if you NEEDED an aug everytime to do dungeons
Be able to choose. Safe gameplay=aug, DPS orientalt gameplay= +1 dps
That's so ignorant, you never choose, the meta dectates what you play unless you are casual.
Easy fix, I've said this a lot but getting zero traction.. Ebon Might should only affect targets with Prescience. This would fix the problem of tanks and Healers getting buffed, and the annoying proximity affect in raid.
Not really. In keys you have prescience up on 3 targets regularly. So you buff a healer or the tank. Even 4 presciences are possible for a short time. And it would create a bad habit to only buff ebon might if you have prescience on all targets, rather than buff ebon might and keep it rolling with as much uptime as possible.
@martinzschau7481 then they could adjust durations. Give Prescience a target cap, make it a 10 minute buff with no cd that you put on someone like earth shield.
My point is they can tune the abilities that are currently in the game so that the spec isn't ass to play while they cook up a full rework.
"aug evoker is the issue" - I dont think so, remove aug and than the +1% player base will just fill up with the next meta class. lets face it there will always be a meta.
A lot of comments say "make aug a tank" - I really wonder why they would like that? so that we have another tank on the bench because DH is just simply better currently?
I really like that we finally got a real support class in game and blizz starts to develope the game for fun and not infinite balance which will never be archived anyway since the top players will always find a way to optimize their gameplay. :)
There will always be a meta, but there has rarely been a god comp. You usually have 1 spot to wiggle with dps and can slot in a handful of specs. With aug though, you just take aug so that's the difference that I think is the main issue.
@@mebrandonb I think thats not true - look at shadowlands season four MDI leaderboard. its 100% of the time the same comp., no "wiggle with dps" ;) if you than go to the "normal leaderboard" you see that ppl just copied the mdi comp.
that said I know I am not dealing with the 1% player issues - I currently play only as casual in the 2,5-3k range, that said - I did not play a single key with an augmentation this season so yes its possible ;P
but if you want to push high you just take the current meta thats how it is and always will be.
I think part of the appeal of aug is that they help everyone with everything like supports from other games, so while itd be cool to add a support role and tune the game around that, or make them only impact dps, if you just way undertuned them in the mean time so people who want to support their friends can do that, but you dont bring them to whatever level of content is challenging for you they wouldnt be such a big topic until blizzard has time to work out the kinks in adding a support role.
She's right. Can't balance around a single spec in the game. Dump it, make it a full-on hybrid role, or incorporate support into all healers.
F.O.T.M
just delete aug evoker and give the support buffs to healers
My opinion, aug should be removed.
I totally agree with you. It feels so weird to have a singular class as a support role in wow, let alone creating the role to begin with. I don't know what they were thinking.
Not sure why I am fed only videos from her other than Aug hate videos. Is this a large part of her schtick?
I did a bunch of Mythic 0 this week for the bullion weekly quest and didn't see a single Augvoker (or rogue). Just shtons of monks, hunters, paladins, demon hunters, shamans, and devastation evokers.
Edit: and occasionally a mage, warlock or priest.
I would like to see Aug become a tank spec with black dragon abilities - can keep the 10% speed/hp buff, zephyr, dmg buffs to ally’s similar utility to vengeance 5%. Our melee draconian dreams can come true !
& new talent: Size increased by 10% while mitigation is active
Support role doesnt fit wow. Needs to be part of the make up. Increase party size to 6 and introduce some more support roles.
a support role could fit well if they gave it multiple buffs to party, debuffs to enemies and cleanses, if its going to make a key easier it will be picked up doing low damage
Gonna have to hard disagree with this one. "Required" for what and who??
The spec is really cool and would love to see more support classes personally. I just want to know what content specifically is locked behind it and what gear are you missing out on each week by not playing with one? I don't think you realize how small of the population of the game is affected by the issue you asked Blizzard about too, and for the players that are affected it's not gamebreaking as they're not missing out on content or gear. I think it's out of touch to want them to potentially ruin the system for 'everyone' so that .01% can have a more varied experience(they NEVER will anyways, they will find a different meta and lock that in saying they HAVE to play it). Or like at what key level is it just okay to not be able to go any higher? Do you need them to just make a hard stop on keystone level, or should gear just keep scaling infinitely too and we end up going to keystone level 112 because the gear makes us able to survive.
The current state of defensives is way more fun than ever before at most levels of play, I hope they leave that as well. This expansion is the most fun that mythic plus has ever been, and I personally don't understand for the life of me why players are trying to get the classes tuned around content that doesn't even offer better gear like I can't even fathom it. Why not focus feedback around things that actually matter and will make the game overall better? Some goblins chained to their desk doing 20s in the current season and complaining about it, like get over it lol it would be better for more people if they just removed the ability to do 20 rather than tune EVERYONE around it. Should be happy they offer infinitely scaling content at all
Too OP? I disagree. They aren’t even good, very few augmentation evokers are good. Only the top tier players play them well enough and coordinate enough for them to be strong, which is exactly how it should be.
This is how Power Infusion has always been as well same with discipline.
Maybe do it like LoL and give Support all the utility while other roles only have movement skills as bonus to damage/healing/tanking. Maybe this would make the support role different enough to justify all of them in a dungeon. But taking away utility from other roles to justify the existence of another might be not the right move either. :D
Lets be honest. The real problem is the playstyle is boring as fuck, and there is very little visual feedback due to most of the effects being on other people's buff bars.
Augmentation was the worst decision Blizzard made in a long time. It's just toxic for the game.
Just delete Aug from the game and remake it as a tank instead as so so so many people looked forward to before aug was announced.
You could replace one dps if some current specs were switched to support. Enhancement and Affliction are obvious choices. Make Enhancement buff melee more, Aug buff casters more, make Aff debuff enemies. Maybe make a rogue and a hunter spec into a cc support since they always have one spec in the garbage can. There's plenty of room for innovation.
Survivability will ALWAYS become a problem in infinitely scaling content like M+ at a certain point. It's just bad game design that we hit this wall way before the dps one.
Should prob just not continue with Evoker past dragonflight.
The developers for whatever reason cannot balance this game, hence the generous timers for keys. If they shortened the timers and made it a hard dps check then you would completely eliminate probably 90% of the specs from being viable. You have stupid nonsense like some specs being target capped and others not, it's an impossibility no matter how skilled for a target capped Rogue spec to out dps a Destro Lock when a tank pulls all the mobs before the first boss in AA. That's just one example of an insanely long list of imbalance in this game.
If all specs did the same amount of uncapped aoe damage would you consider that balanced?
Personally I find it interesting game design to have some specs able to do that, while others have strong points elsewhere, such as single target, two target etc.
I’m not arguing that that is how the game currently is, or that the game is currently successfully balanced that way. I’m pointing out that just because rogues can’t do everything exactly the same as a warlock on every pull does not mean the game isn’t balanced. There’s more nuanced balance than absolute equality.
@Arcticp75 no they don't have to be the same in order to be balanced. You can have different damage profiles, single target, burst, sustained, etc, but over the course of a dungeon they should "balance" themselves out. At the moment that isn't the case and you have dps classes and specs that are just flat out better. It's not a problem when it comes to timing keys because damage isn't the be all and end all here, but if it was then this imbalance would just be further highlighted. You could say there are a lot of "interesting" game design choices in WoW, I would say there are a lot of bad game design choices.
For you example of rogue vs destro I agree and rogues should lose all of their dps when the tank moves 10ft or goes around a corner.
@@xdgamesCoUk I agree with your point that a lot of the poor balancing comes from the interactions between asymmetrical class balance and dungeon design. Just as we don't want every class to do the same damage profile, we don't want every dungeon to have the same profile. In theory every dungeon has trash for AoE and bosses for single target, but fort/tyran as well as dungeon design muddies the waters. I agree it feels heavily stacked towards big aoe at the moment.
Out of curiosity is there a mmo or other game that you feel hits this complex balancing better?
For what it's worth WoW has been the best balanced MMO while still retaining interesting asymmetries between classes (i.e. not FFXIV) that I've played. I stand by it being interesting because the alternatives I've seen that result in a better "balance" feel boring in practice.
I play devastation evoker main for 2 seasons now and I'm so tired of getting asked If I could play aug. like no I don't want to lmao... I want this spec removed from the game so bad haha
I agree Blizzard should see the mistake in making the Aug Evoker and just delete them.
Whether the timer is too long or short is dependent on the specific dungeon. All I do is PUG and it definitely doesn't feel too long for some dungeons. I do agree though that accounting for scaling damage being done by the group and creative routing is easier than tuning damage on the mobs where survival plays more of a roll if I heard correctly. And yeah unless there is a designated hybrid roll like aug, then it is absurdly hard to balance at times.
They should convert healer to support which can give damage/shield/heal buffs together and that would be more fun and aug evoker would be more fun.
the fact that healers have to dps and be considered good based on their dps is garbage, healers should heal, tanks need to get less self healing
@@mathewnicholson1717 based
Aug may be broken in the top keys however, augs have bricked more keys than any other class in 10-13 key range I’ve done this season. As a more casual player I will show solidarity with the elites and propose that Aug be deleted from the game.
The solution is so simple it bugles my mind blizz is sleeping on that for some reason , make ebon might target only dps and buff augs dmg(either direct or buff dmg same thing) , there is no support role in the game aug is a dps and its fine!!!
More content being made bad or unfun because of mythic 5mans.... the cancer that can never be undone. Like LFR :( just part of the game now
Can we just make wow great again. Remove aug (and any of the supportish playstyle coming with TWW), revert the M+ change back to how is was before this season because this season is unfun af, Raids are fun again heck remove mythic difficulty or nerf it where its hard but not so hard so people actually have a reason to try it or just bring it back to herioc being the hardest and u can do 10-25 man again for it. Healers actually being Healers and not dps and lets just go back to the good times. im not even gunna fully blame blizzard for alot of the dying of wow cause a huge hand in this has been the community too. Everyone just wants New shiny stuff only for the new shiny stuff to suck or blizzard ignores after 1 season of its release. No more BP/AP no more stupid systems that we dont need. Just classic good ole M+, Raids, and pvp balance with our talent trees (not these doodoo hero talents were getting tho) and lets play some wow.
It is a bit tiring that people still believe that aug have no spot in WoW. We have had support type classes and abilities, some of those abilities are still around, in the past and no one complained. The "problem" people have is that Aug gives a blanket effect to the party then further buffs the party through other effects. Other classes that had support abilities and could have been concidered support back then, some still and could be concidered, are Druids, Shamans, Paladins to a point. Druids used to be very group support as their play style, I have mained a druid since vanilla, was always about their flexability. This dropped off over the course of WoW history to where Druids are more into their one role and are able to help with other roles if speced correctly, but most Druids don't do that anymore and talents like the Treants for balance is looked at as if that shouldn't be around. Shamans where very into a support role with what they could do with their totems. From healing to increasing armor of the group, Shamans used to be very flexable class, but just like Druids they ended up falling into more of their "role" type and the support they brought started to go away. A lot of the support is still there but you sacrafice a lot to play in that style and some of the totems are no longer around. They do still bring group support still in the way of healing, haste, and other group totems. Players didn't like the support for old and that drove a thought into people that make contant and can be called influencers to not like those play styles. If influencers backed the idea of Aug then Aug wouldn't be as hated as it is. but when Aug was coming out there was a lot of influencers that went against the idea as it "broke" the "holy trinity" that has been in WoW for "A long time" which in truth has been at the core of WoW for that long. I believe most of the change came in either Cata or MoP and that is when the roles of a class was more focused on. Another exsample is PI, or Powr Infusion, on Priests. Everyone likes this, but if this gave a blanket effect to the party then people would have a problem with it...
I personally think the problem is the healing spec in general. Healers shouldnt exist.... Most players dont want to have their success determined by someone else. Defensives allow players to be self sufficient and in control of their own destiny. Thats why the entire concept of a healer is shit and honestly i wish future mmo's would fade them out. All we really need are DPS, Tank and maybe support roles.
Fun fact, guild wars 2 tried the no trinity (everyone can do all), players complained, now there is tank, dps,healers and supports in the game, and it's actually much better than it was before
^A take made by a dps who got called out by the healer because they stood in the fire^
Brah, she must've forgotten what a Mistweaver Monk supposed to look like the first time the class was launched.
I think they need to rework existing specs to become supports and then add the support role by removing one of the damage roles. This would work if multiple of the existing DPS specs were changed into support specs instead. Example: Shadow Priest, Demo warlock, Enhancement shaman, Balance Druid etc. could easily be reworked into support specs.
I as a demo warlock would hate to see my spec ruined by conversion into support. I suppose it is the same for many other potential specs. Support role is not enjoyed by everyone. Only way forward is to rework aug and buff/balance utility of regular specs.
You literally contradicted yourself. They are a support role.
but why must it be balanced? What is wrong with having classes that are meta for specific parts of the game? Aug is only good because mage/priest/destro lock are meta. If melee classes were meta then we wouldnt be having this conversation at all as they dont have as much synergy.
Oh please. What a ridiculous argument. Having 1 of 3 spots being auto locked to a single spec is incredibly unhealthy
@@morgenmuffel5747 isnt that already the case with vdh, rdruid, mage, priest?
@@morgenmuffel5747 But why the spec is the problem and not something else? Create dungeons that would make something else op too. I personally don't like how everything becomes homogenized because i.e. the damage profile is too similar with each dungeon.
Ahh the ole' Aug stole my spot argument.
Now read Dratnos’ comment then actually watch the vid