The problem with harmonize symbolizes the problem with the format as a whole - it's too fast now. Commander SHOULD be the format where you can play a 4 mana draw 3, but instead it's gotten too fast and looks more like legacy or modern (thanks to cEDH) where the game is decided by turn 3 or 4 :( . I still love the format, but I'm finding it less about playing cool cards now
Solemn I play if I can abuse the body to get the card draw or rampant a bunch. guess it depends on deck. harmonize no, my playgroups run to many wipe effects to where I'd only draw maybe 1-2 cards..
Solemn is colorless ramp that gets a land on to the battlefield, card draw, with a 2/2 body to boot. Has blink, reanimation, landfall, death trigger synergies. However, I have never put Harmonize in a deck. when you have great henge and beast whisperer out there, I don’t see the point of playing it myself.
Solemn is such a value train - but if your deck is super finely tuned, I can see it not being an auto-include. Harmonize is too expensive, especially for finely tuned decks. My card draw is based on synergies within the deck.
I just find it hilarious that Crim doesn't like the idea of paying for Thaumatic Compass ability for a land but absolutely loves the idea of sinking mana into Soothsaying lool
Soothsaying helps you every time you leave mana open, and you can never use compass more than once per turn without help. Soothsaying doesnt ramp, but crim is the token soothsaying player so what can ya do
20:56 this is something I see a lot, where people think there's this dichotomy between budget and budget-less where I'm either spending $1000 on a deck or 10 cents. I play all "budget" decks but I play less than 5 tap lands per deck usually. Most people can get a bfz, show lands, midnight hunt lands, or the shock for their two color deck, but might not be able to get the og dual, fetches, rainbow lands. There is in fact an inbetween here and Tomer is right, you can make a nice two color manabase with those random lands even though its budget. You don't have to use tap lands.
Thaumatic Compass: I wholeheartedly agree with Richard. The worst thing that can happen to any player in a commander game is miss their land drops in turns 3-6. This is an insurance policy against that happening, which becomes a Maze of Ith / ramp in the late game. Having this card in my opening hand feels amazing.
Back when I played more often I played Journeyer's Kite in several decks (especially mono color decks), just because it was cheap opportunity cost to ensure I dropped a land every turn.
Richard the fact that Strip mine puts you down a land is what makes it good to enable the white ramp!!! Strip mine one opponent, swing at another one with the Cartographer's hawk thats how you do it!!! well your not technically ramping but one opponent is behind at the end of the exchange xd
Solemn is definitely not overrated. It’s probably one of the first gateway Drugs we took to get to the creatures we get today. It does so much for so little downside.
Solemn is goated. It's like a veteran, it gets special privileges for its service over the years. Also still tremendous ramp and advantage for colors that struggle with those things.
See, it’s just a nostalgia thing. All the comments saying they play it are from veteran players. It’s just objectively inefficient. Ramping a tapped basic is valued at 2 mana (rampant growth) and drawing a card is like half a mana (cantrips). A 2/2 body is almost entirely irrelevant in commander. I wouldn’t play a 0-mana 2/2 that does nothing in EDH, so I also wouldn’t play a 4 mana 2/2 that does 2 and a half mana worth of stuff. Tremendous is a huge overstatement. Just play Wayfarer’s Bauble if you need ramp in non-green colors. That’s 3 mana total, and it’s split up in a way that lets you do exactly what Rampant Growth does, exactly when it would do it. Not on turn 4 or later. It is still great in decks that can reuse its triggers over and over, but outside of that, nah. Not even artifact decks need this anymore.
@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai That’s not quite right imo. It being a creature and remaining on the board can add significant synergy in creature-centric decks and artifact decks, and trying to equate drawing a card to “worth 0.5 mana” is ridiculous both with cards that exclusively draw (3 mana draw 6 isn’t exactly an average rate) and cards that draw as an additional benefit (too varied to properly gauge with such rigid measurements). TL:DR - You’re comparing Terminate to Ravenous Chupacabra, but said Chup is a colorless artifact creature that draws on death. Hyper-fixating on the CMC only blinds you to the very high synergy potential.
Here's the thing about Tomer's defense of Solemn: he made a bunch of corner case arguments, BUT those corner cases add up and I think Solemn is still good in the format. It's the definition of versatility.
it dies to itself, why do people not view that as bad? the only time I would ever sacrifice it is when there's an artifact wipe. which I guess is common so is that why? you just wait to crack it on a wipe?
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 You wait to crack it when you really need the card draw. Otherwise, you just keep using it for mana. A lot of games, you never sacrifice it. How is dying to itself bad though? A lot of really good cards are good because they can sacrifice themselves for value. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. It’s only going to die to itself when you want it to. I don’t play the card anyways because I don’t have a deck that wants a 4 mana ramp spell, but it’s good if your commander costs a lot of mana. But I also don’t play Solemn Simulacrum either, because again, it’s a 4-mana ramp spell. It’s only really worth it if you’re sacrificing it and then reanimating it a bunch of times.
I think we've hit a point where Solemn ends up being your 101st card sometimes, especially if you're not leaning on artifact or blink synergies. Still super playable in most decks, to the point where your deck probably isn't any worse off for including it and cutting another utility spell.
We just needed a sad robot to make Tomer and Richard agree on something! And Solemn gets a pass because no four mana ramp will draw you a card and be available to all colors at the same time
The deal there is if you're playing it for ramp, there is litterally thran dynamo which adds triple the mana. And at 4 mana, even white can draw more than 1 card. Its just jack of all, master of none
@@jaredwright1655 I mean it being a creature can give it more synergy, I have it as one of my many mana fetching dorks in my U/W blink deck, where its nice to have as a backup for blink shenanigans if you don't have another payoff yet
@@Sariusify totally agree in Maren or Brago where you can make the triggers repeatable, then we've got a solid card bit it's way over representative in goodstuff decks
“No 4 mana ramp will draw you a card and be available to all the colors at the same time.” *AHEM* hedron archive draws you 2 cards and is available to all colors
Solemn: I was actually convinced by this episode that it is a good card. I viewed it as 4 mana ramp as well and not great card draw so I cut it. After breaking it down let’s say you get a 2 mana ramp spell which is pretty decent. You can then assign 1 mana for a card draw which is good. You finally then get 1 mana for a 2/2 which is also good. All in one card I would agree it’s probably an S tier staple
Its a 4 mana etb AND ltb creature. Its etb is ramp its ltb is card draw. Its best recurred repeatedly or blinked. And unlike most ramp, it gets better the farther the game goes.
I wouldnt play a 2 mana 2/2 that draws a card when he dies in commander, outside of maybe aristocrats, and i dont think glueing that with rampant growth changes that
I found the section discussing lands to be very informative. I got hooked on basics in commander when I played a lot using Xmage and everyone had wild mana bases with all the best non basics. I'd play ruination and laugh.
@@saw31489 Could be. It wasn't last I bought cards, but truth be told I haven't modified any of my decks since before covid hit - because why bother when there isn't anyone to play with. Once I can go to the next door country without hastle, I might look into card prices again.
for harmonize it is still playable in a green deck that has a low creature density and doesn't have blue. there are too many good card draw spells that are more efficient if you are playing a lot of creatures, which most green decks want to do. I have also found personally that most of the decks I play with green even if they are low on creature count tend to have another more efficient way of drawing cards (enchantress effects for example) or gaining card advantage in other ways (life from loam for example). Basically if there is room for it after you add all the card draw that synergizes with your deck theme then you add it, that shouldn't happen all that often though for Solemn, he is not as unplayable in 2022 as people would have you believe but he isn't an auto-include anymore. Totally agree with Seth on this one, there are decks that want him and they really want him and there are decks where he's just ok. The main problem with solemn is he is rarely BAD, you are never unhappy to see him so even though you could replace him with a card that would be better for your deck he never really makes you think i wish this were something else, even though nine times out of ten replacing him with a 2 mana ramp spell is more efficient if you don't have some way to abuse his ETB or recur him. The TLDR is he is perfectly fine but if you are optimizing your decks he should usually end up on the chopping block
I only play solemn in decks where it fits the theme, but since it has an ETB, death trigger, and is an artifact I end up with Solemn in like half my decks!
Doesn't need to be basic for the Shadow/Show lands. It's just of that type. I rarely have those coming in tapped in my games. I also still "gimp" myself by running at least 1 of the evolving wilds and fabled passage if it's 3 or more colors. But man, I remember the days of Vivid lands and Temples. Loved them early on. Land nostalgia is real. :)
I had just put vivids on a buy list thinking they are the most under priced lands ever. somehow totally missed that they come into play tapped. amazing how much of a difference that makes.
I just wanna say that i really like the mtggoldfish podcasts (yes both commander and the weekly main). This episode was a unexpected gift! I really hope the commander podcast become a weekly thing instead of 2 a month. I love the arguing and the debating! It really gives more insight behind the decisions of the crew. Please more podcasts!!! :)
I like solemn a lot. I play it in decks with creature recursion, blink or artifact themes. I think it goes well in a lot of decks but I no longer think it's an auto include unless you can get extra value from it
I have been there, an opponent plays a Solemn, and no one attacks into it, it was so absurd that I started to play it and it worked!! #facts I only play it in my mono black list because is a way to feed the cabal coffers, outside of that I usually find better options in other colors.
But like, it _shouldn’t_ work. If it does, it’s way better, but opponents not attacking you because you have a Solemn are just choosing to give it an extra ability that says “Opponents can’t attack you.” They’re making it better than it actually is, and they’re not acknowledging that you’ll get it to die eventually either way, so they’re just wasting time letting you be immune to aggro just so you can eventually draw a card anyways. But hey, if they do, hell yeah. You milk that for all it’s worth! If that ability was actually on the card it’d be insane, and that’s basically what you’re getting, so play that sad boi even more and hope they never wisen up.
Wheel of fortune is my favorite card in all of magic. The amount of times I've just caused chaos with it by casting it on the very first turn with a mana crypt just to make my opponents "mulligan" one more time is beyond hilarious.
No one would argue that Sakura tribe elder is bad. The reason for that is that it's basically rampant growth that chump blocks. Solemn does the same thing. Yes it costs 2 more mana, but there are multiple upsides as well. First of all Steve isn't actually a rampant growth because you have to sac it to get the land. Solemn gets the land right away and can also threaten to block for multiple turns or be sacrificed to activate a different effect. Also because you sac it Steve has no chance of actually killing what you block, Solemn actually goes to combat and therefore is a more threatening blocker that might actually kill something. And of course it also draws a card and can go in non green decks. It's definitely worth the extra 2.
Steve's power doesn't at all come from being able to block. Its rampant growth that *also* is easier to tutor and recur than actual rampant growth, and can sometimes block for a turn maybe but probably not since it will only be on the table for a round. Solemn has a lot of upside, but 4 is a way bigger cost if you're not going to abuse it.
Mono black just doesn't really get decent cantrippy cards. Sometimes you just want to hit your land drops. Black has nights whisper and sign in blood. At 3 you have skeletal scrying. Most of the other card draw in black requires multiple pieces or death triggers. IMHO it's hard to play monoblack control, you pretty much have to play monoblack aristocrats
@@lukemackinlay5126 There are just a ton of draw sources in Black. Even when you include activatable ones in the form of enchantments. The problem is most people don't consider the draw with additional costs. But that is the flavor of black. Black has to compromises and make sacrifices to gain knowledge and power. They're there, we just need to stop denying their use.
@@VexylObby you're completely right. One of the other problems with black is when you're talking about low cmc draw you really start getting into power. Once you want to talk about efficiency then you have to ask yourself why you aren't playing Necro or doomsday or tutors. My gripe with the color (as a mono black lover) is that it feels bad to blow your budget on staple cards instead of fun splashy ones. I am a Timmy and a budget player though so there's that 💀👍
i would love to see the old school commander clash episode where every body has to build a deck with the cards they used in the beginning and see all the complaining about how the decks are that are only compose of cards the crew saw as good during that time.
The main problem with Solemn is you dont want to be ramping 1 mana on turn 4 and waiting possibly 3 turn just to draw a card. When you can cast your commander or actual set up for you game plan. I'd rather play a thaumatic compass.
Thaumatic is like the world's slowest, most mana-expensive Phyrexian Arena that can only draw basic lands. If you look at Solemn Simulacrum as a rampant growth, it's over-costed. But then you start looking at the _synergies_ and it becomes something great. Unbelievably good in Flicker/Copy/Reanimate/ETB decks for obvious reasons, it's an artifact for artifact synergies, it's a creature with a death trigger for your creature and aristocrat decks, it's colorless land ramp option for Blue/Red/Black which all (ESPECIALLY Black) care about having basic lands, etc etc. Looking at it in a vacuum it looks OK at best, but as soon as you start considering its interactions with other cards it shoots up in usefulness.
Something possible for the future, maybe? Would love to see at least a brief pop-up somewhere of the cards you mention alongside the one on screen? I usually know what most of the cards do, as I assume most will, but it would be a great reminder to have them pop-up. As always, quality content. Has me making a few cuts from my main EDH deck ;) Thanks guys!
The fact that solemn gets a land is huge. Also most commander decks are Sacrifice/graveyard, Artifact, Blink. Even in spellslingers it gives you a blocker against early aggro.
Agreed! I'll run Harmonize in addition to Shamanic Revelation and Camaraderie in a go-wide deck, because sometimes you need to draw when you don't have a ton in hand and board just got wiped.
Ive stopped including solemn because i felt like spending 4 mana on a rampant growth with tiny extra while my opponent cast a smothering tithe or a bomb since he ramped earlier
Solemn is fantastic let me kind of break down my thought process. Salem is assembly rampant growth and elvish visionary stapled together. And with its cost of 4CMC you pay the exact same rate as you would for seeing those two spells individually so you gain the benefit of having two in one. Comparatively you get the benefits of it being colorless so it can go in decks that aren't just green but it also doesn't require any colored mana so no matter what for pips you have on the table you can cast solemn and get the color you're missing to keep pace with the rest of the table. Additionally it has all the benefits of the creature type for example jump blocker sacrifice fodder planes walk hanger aristocrats fodder etc. In 2022 we can look at just what's printed on the card and whether it's good or not or efficient or not we have to reasonably gauge what that's going to be in and it's doing the job of ramp and fixing in addition to card draw and any synergies with the creature subtype. And that doesn't even mention the other applicable center to this can have with ETB flickering the artifact super type. Solemn does a little bit of everything in a colorless package that is on equivalent CC to comparable cards.
4 mana to tutor a tapped land is a bad rate, at least in my meta. and you don't get the card draw unless you can kill your own creature--card isn't bad, but I don't think it goes in decks that can't abuse it's etb and dies triggers
I absolutely agree with the statement on tutors in edh. They feel like they do against the idea of the format. That being said: I opened a Japanese Mystical Archive Demonic Tutor and like hell am I not gonna play that beauty!
If you like [[thumatic compass]] for land fixing, consider [[realmbreaker, the invasion tree]] instead. It's more efficient at 2 to activate. It also puts the land on the battlefield, so it's not just fixing, it's ramp. --And you might not get a maze out of it, but it never hurts to throw a few praetors in your deck. ;)
Wholeheartedly agree about tutors. I still play some tutors like open the armory specifically for my voltrons, but still the point of the format is the unpredictability
I’m glad you guys didn’t try to shoehorn in the word tier list in the title. I get that it helps with clicks, but it’s nice to see something different from time to time.
I feel like wotc will print another "secret rendezvous" that draws you and your opponent 4 cards for 4 mana, Richard will say something like "it's better than harmonize, return of the wildspeaker, necropotence etc." and then you all will buy him straitjacket and send to Arkham Asylum.
So I think bounce lands have increased in value ever since MDFCs came out. You played your MDFC land on turn two and you are running out of gas on turn seven…then you draw a bounce land! Return the MDFC land to your hand.
Fun fact if you say Mindslaver someone and exile their commander you can opt to leave it exiled as you control that players turn thus permanently getting rid of a commander unless they Mirror of Fate. Just saying something that Crim would love
I cut solemn from my blink decks bc white just ramps so much better with cards like “Knight of the White Orchard” as it brings in any plains card and it comes in untapped for 2 less mana (more color intensive yes). I’ve purposely held back playing a land, played Knight/Orchid, blinked it, then played the land and matched the green deck, then immediately passed them on lands.
46:30 - I always put either Strip Mine, Wasteland, or both in my decks because there are so many land-based wincons and nobody runs land destruction because "sOciAL cOnTrAcT" which means that the Field of the Dead player just gets a free win once it comes out. It's also my default target when an opponent plays Tempt With Discovery, because then if they _do_ find one of the wincon lands, I can just destroy it immediately.
As far as tutors, do you run Recruiters? Trinket Mage? Crop Rotation or Sylvan Scrying? *** As far as Temples, I run them in one 3-color deck, Aminatou and two 2-color decks: Boros and Minna and Denn (I can bounce it and replay it if I’m running out of gas).
1:05:50 Solemn is pretty solid. A-Tier card. Also if you run Sword of Hearth and Home, ABSOLUTELY run Solemn *just in case* you manage to get both on the board. PS: deck I put Solemn in; - Oketra the True - Reaper King - Yarok - Alela - Jodah - Osgir - Atemsis
If you guys do a dual land tier list, you’ve gotta follow up with a utility land tier list and/or colorless land tier list. Madblind Mountain! Reliquary Tower! Crumbling Vestige!
I agree with Richard, Harmonize is underrated. Not because people don't play it enough, but because they don't know why its so good. Is the only unconditional card draw in green that works at any stage of the game and at any situation. It was first printed in Planar Chaos as a color break, and there will never be a card like this in green. 10 years ago it was considered a "cheat" for green to have this card, and think that is the correct description even today. I just think people have forgotten about that.
I like to think of wheels as hand disruption for enemies not card draw. Usually if you're wheeling then you want the cards but your opponents usually have been planning their gameplan around the cards in their hands.
I feel like Solemn Simulacrum is in the middle of where you all placed it with a slight tilt towards being a staple. I don't put it in every deck but most decks outside of CEDH, spellslinger, and non-landfall green decks benefit from it. Like at this point the "top 10 Commander cards" are a bunch of mana rocks, things that cost 100's or 1000's, and cards designed for the format. This probably doesn't even hit the top 25 maybe even 50.
Solemn can really only fit in 1 or maybe color decks that don’t have green. Once you’re playing three colors the talisman’s signets, and sol ring et Alia just out pace the card. You basically never want to ramp on 4 as it’s usually not doing enough to advance your board state.
Temples are good to play turn 1 in lower power where decks often play nothing. While temples can interfere with two and three mana plays they also speed up getting the next land after you play out the ones in your hand. They are kind of like less risky bounce lands that way. Temples like cycling lands also help with drawing too many lands in the mid to late game in lower power games.
Yes but often the downside of entering tapped is greater than the benefit of the scry 1. Too often you can’t play on curve with tapped lands so i tend to favor basics or other options unless it really is worth it.
Every time I watch one of these videos I am amazed how different they are playing the format than me and my friends do. Not playing Mystic Remora, Strip Mine and Vampiric Tutor sound just crazy to me.
No solemn in green deck for sure. In non-green decks, If I can abuse his ramp/draw part (for example, in a reanimator deck, in a sacrifice deck, in a blink deck, etc.) I will put it in. But if not, its too late to ramp. I prefer running a lot of 2-mana mana rocks, even if they are more susceptible to be blown up, because it let me play more spells and do more stuff during an average game of magic, and let me play my commander even faster than if I was ramping with a solemn. Plus, it doesn't give you mana rightaway, as for a 2-mana mana rock, you can use it rightaway in late-game.
I play Solemn Similacrum in my Olivia Crimson Bride deck, lots of ways to cast it and cheat it back from the graveyard, perpetually getting lands and card draw, it puts in work!
Coming over from the Podcast to respond to Richard on Sad Robot. I'm mostly with Seth and Crim. I think Solemn Simulacrum is still a very solid card but doesn't make sense in every deck. To Richard's credit, ramp is one of the strongest things you can do. However Solemn probably makes it in exactly non green Mono color decks, in Grixis colors decks, artifact decks, blink decks, and Panharmonicon style decks. This doesn't sell Solemn short. That's a wide variety of decks. It simply doesn't make the cut in most decks (not all) that have green, and nothing 4C+. Soooo it makes it in most decks. Now, of those most decks that it can make it, should you always run it? Hmmm. Probably not. That's a little dogmatic imo. But would Solemn feel bad in those most decks? Also probably not. Solemn almost always gets you 2 cards for 1, 1 of which is ramp. That should NEVER be sold short.
I run solemn in any non-green deck unless there's an outstanding reason why (I don't run it in my Prosper deck because Prosper is also four mana and he ramps by himself the turn after). I think people kind of underrate just having creatures on the board. Also I tend to run decks that get me attacked and its ramp and a blocker in one lol.
I cut solemn from every deck except my mono-black ones that have Cabal Coffers/Stronghold. BUT i will still stand with Richard that Secret Rendezvous is amazing!
Down with Richard, DOWN! :P Saff is absolutely right. Even with jank decks, I'd still rather minimise tutor, especially so, with the "search-anythings".
I think the show land are still decent in my opinion but for two color deck only because two color I run more basic so it's easier to come untap. I don't put the any scry land any of my two color deck because they always always come tap so it's really ruins my tempo unless it's a budget I would run them
We were totally divided on Solemn Simulacrum and Harmonize. What do you all think? Are they overrated? Underrated?
The problem with harmonize symbolizes the problem with the format as a whole - it's too fast now. Commander SHOULD be the format where you can play a 4 mana draw 3, but instead it's gotten too fast and looks more like legacy or modern (thanks to cEDH) where the game is decided by turn 3 or 4 :( . I still love the format, but I'm finding it less about playing cool cards now
Solemn I play if I can abuse the body to get the card draw or rampant a bunch. guess it depends on deck. harmonize no, my playgroups run to many wipe effects to where I'd only draw maybe 1-2 cards..
Solemn is colorless ramp that gets a land on to the battlefield, card draw, with a 2/2 body to boot. Has blink, reanimation, landfall, death trigger synergies. However, I
have never put Harmonize in a deck. when you have great henge and beast whisperer out there, I don’t see the point of playing it myself.
Solemn is such a value train - but if your deck is super finely tuned, I can see it not being an auto-include. Harmonize is too expensive, especially for finely tuned decks. My card draw is based on synergies within the deck.
Harmonize on a budget and solemn is definitely overplayed but again ok in mono white, red, or etb decks.
This image is great, everyone else has normal magic cards; door of destinies, solemn, strip mine; then there’s just Crim with a Forest
To be fair in mono coloured decks I run more non-basics than basics so almost there.
I thought that was going to mean he doesn't play green decks. Turns out he actually doesn't play lands, which we knew already.
"This is the only way to ramp if you're not in green!"
Wayfarer's Bauble: "AMATEURS"
I just find it hilarious that Crim doesn't like the idea of paying for Thaumatic Compass ability for a land but absolutely loves the idea of sinking mana into Soothsaying lool
Yeah but Soothsaying isn't a tap ability /s
Soothsaying helps you every time you leave mana open, and you can never use compass more than once per turn without help. Soothsaying doesnt ramp, but crim is the token soothsaying player so what can ya do
Every time Crim is on a podcast I'm more and more convinced he's just a supervillain.
Crim speaks to a side of me, like my chaos deck where the only wincon is everyone else concedes
Every hero needs a villian
Crim is a villain if you listen to his Nii-San podcast
Crim is the heel we need
Crim is the hero we need, not the one we deserve.
20:56 this is something I see a lot, where people think there's this dichotomy between budget and budget-less where I'm either spending $1000 on a deck or 10 cents. I play all "budget" decks but I play less than 5 tap lands per deck usually. Most people can get a bfz, show lands, midnight hunt lands, or the shock for their two color deck, but might not be able to get the og dual, fetches, rainbow lands. There is in fact an inbetween here and Tomer is right, you can make a nice two color manabase with those random lands even though its budget. You don't have to use tap lands.
Thaumatic Compass: I wholeheartedly agree with Richard. The worst thing that can happen to any player in a commander game is miss their land drops in turns 3-6. This is an insurance policy against that happening, which becomes a Maze of Ith / ramp in the late game. Having this card in my opening hand feels amazing.
boros player moment
Back when I played more often I played Journeyer's Kite in several decks (especially mono color decks), just because it was cheap opportunity cost to ensure I dropped a land every turn.
play more lands then
Richard the fact that Strip mine puts you down a land is what makes it good to enable the white ramp!!! Strip mine one opponent, swing at another one with the Cartographer's hawk thats how you do it!!! well your not technically ramping but one opponent is behind at the end of the exchange xd
COMBO!
Solemn is definitely not overrated. It’s probably one of the first gateway Drugs we took to get to the creatures we get today. It does so much for so little downside.
Sad robot is a staple for a reason lol
Is being 4 mana and only getting basics not a downside?
@@troublemack9876 i said little downside not no downside
I play solemn in 0 decks. Budget is the only reason I would ever play it.
4 mana for a 2/2, bad ramp and bad, slow draw is plenty drawbacks
Solemn is goated. It's like a veteran, it gets special privileges for its service over the years. Also still tremendous ramp and advantage for colors that struggle with those things.
Especially if you can recur it or copy it.
As a veteran and a Solemn aficionado, I approve this message.
It's still phenomenal in non-green decks that care about the body, artifact decks, blink decks, or aristocrat decks imo
See, it’s just a nostalgia thing. All the comments saying they play it are from veteran players. It’s just objectively inefficient. Ramping a tapped basic is valued at 2 mana (rampant growth) and drawing a card is like half a mana (cantrips). A 2/2 body is almost entirely irrelevant in commander. I wouldn’t play a 0-mana 2/2 that does nothing in EDH, so I also wouldn’t play a 4 mana 2/2 that does 2 and a half mana worth of stuff. Tremendous is a huge overstatement.
Just play Wayfarer’s Bauble if you need ramp in non-green colors. That’s 3 mana total, and it’s split up in a way that lets you do exactly what Rampant Growth does, exactly when it would do it. Not on turn 4 or later. It is still great in decks that can reuse its triggers over and over, but outside of that, nah. Not even artifact decks need this anymore.
@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai That’s not quite right imo. It being a creature and remaining on the board can add significant synergy in creature-centric decks and artifact decks, and trying to equate drawing a card to “worth 0.5 mana” is ridiculous both with cards that exclusively draw (3 mana draw 6 isn’t exactly an average rate) and cards that draw as an additional benefit (too varied to properly gauge with such rigid measurements).
TL:DR - You’re comparing Terminate to Ravenous Chupacabra, but said Chup is a colorless artifact creature that draws on death. Hyper-fixating on the CMC only blinds you to the very high synergy potential.
The quad S rating for Solemn had me laughing like crazy
Here's the thing about Tomer's defense of Solemn: he made a bunch of corner case arguments, BUT those corner cases add up and I think Solemn is still good in the format. It's the definition of versatility.
Tomer, you know what other 4-mana ramp spell also draws cards? Hedron Archive. It draws twice the cards, and ramps twice as much!
it dies to itself, why do people not view that as bad? the only time I would ever sacrifice it is when there's an artifact wipe. which I guess is common so is that why? you just wait to crack it on a wipe?
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 You wait to crack it when you really need the card draw. Otherwise, you just keep using it for mana. A lot of games, you never sacrifice it. How is dying to itself bad though? A lot of really good cards are good because they can sacrifice themselves for value. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. It’s only going to die to itself when you want it to.
I don’t play the card anyways because I don’t have a deck that wants a 4 mana ramp spell, but it’s good if your commander costs a lot of mana. But I also don’t play Solemn Simulacrum either, because again, it’s a 4-mana ramp spell. It’s only really worth it if you’re sacrificing it and then reanimating it a bunch of times.
I think we've hit a point where Solemn ends up being your 101st card sometimes, especially if you're not leaning on artifact or blink synergies. Still super playable in most decks, to the point where your deck probably isn't any worse off for including it and cutting another utility spell.
Also pretty nice in aristocrat decks
Seth’s face from the 20 min mark while tomer was speaking was absolutely what I needed to see today. 👏🤣
We just needed a sad robot to make Tomer and Richard agree on something!
And Solemn gets a pass because no four mana ramp will draw you a card and be available to all colors at the same time
And Block
The deal there is if you're playing it for ramp, there is litterally thran dynamo which adds triple the mana. And at 4 mana, even white can draw more than 1 card. Its just jack of all, master of none
@@jaredwright1655 I mean it being a creature can give it more synergy, I have it as one of my many mana fetching dorks in my U/W blink deck, where its nice to have as a backup for blink shenanigans if you don't have another payoff yet
@@Sariusify totally agree in Maren or Brago where you can make the triggers repeatable, then we've got a solid card bit it's way over representative in goodstuff decks
“No 4 mana ramp will draw you a card and be available to all the colors at the same time.”
*AHEM* hedron archive draws you 2 cards and is available to all colors
Most often on this video I agree with seth.
I only use Solemn in artifact decks, harmonize hardly makes the cut anymore.
But good stuff guys, love it
Solemn: I was actually convinced by this episode that it is a good card. I viewed it as 4 mana ramp as well and not great card draw so I cut it. After breaking it down let’s say you get a 2 mana ramp spell which is pretty decent. You can then assign 1 mana for a card draw which is good. You finally then get 1 mana for a 2/2 which is also good. All in one card I would agree it’s probably an S tier staple
Its a 4 mana etb AND ltb creature. Its etb is ramp its ltb is card draw. Its best recurred repeatedly or blinked. And unlike most ramp, it gets better the farther the game goes.
@@peytonmillner6417 its not a ltb effect, its a dies trigger, the difference is important if you are blinking it
I wouldnt play a 2 mana 2/2 that draws a card when he dies in commander, outside of maybe aristocrats, and i dont think glueing that with rampant growth changes that
What I got from this episode: Tomer's type is *Elder Human*
Just started watching this channel, love how everyone has different opinions. Makes for a very interesting conversation.
I found the section discussing lands to be very informative. I got hooked on basics in commander when I played a lot using Xmage and everyone had wild mana bases with all the best non basics. I'd play ruination and laugh.
Blood moon is getting better
I can't afford a solem in every deck I build, but I can say that I've never cut it from a deck after adding it.
It's currently less than a dollar Isn't it?
@@saw31489 Could be. It wasn't last I bought cards, but truth be told I haven't modified any of my decks since before covid hit - because why bother when there isn't anyone to play with. Once I can go to the next door country without hastle, I might look into card prices again.
for harmonize it is still playable in a green deck that has a low creature density and doesn't have blue. there are too many good card draw spells that are more efficient if you are playing a lot of creatures, which most green decks want to do. I have also found personally that most of the decks I play with green even if they are low on creature count tend to have another more efficient way of drawing cards (enchantress effects for example) or gaining card advantage in other ways (life from loam for example). Basically if there is room for it after you add all the card draw that synergizes with your deck theme then you add it, that shouldn't happen all that often though
for Solemn, he is not as unplayable in 2022 as people would have you believe but he isn't an auto-include anymore. Totally agree with Seth on this one, there are decks that want him and they really want him and there are decks where he's just ok. The main problem with solemn is he is rarely BAD, you are never unhappy to see him so even though you could replace him with a card that would be better for your deck he never really makes you think i wish this were something else, even though nine times out of ten replacing him with a 2 mana ramp spell is more efficient if you don't have some way to abuse his ETB or recur him. The TLDR is he is perfectly fine but if you are optimizing your decks he should usually end up on the chopping block
I only play solemn in decks where it fits the theme, but since it has an ETB, death trigger, and is an artifact I end up with Solemn in like half my decks!
Tomer!!!!! you're not alone with hating shuffling. I also have small hands and trying to shuffle a commander deck is pain.
Thanks for another great podcast episode! Really look forward to the weekly commander clash and podcast episodes!
That mill card Crim brought up, could actually wreck all the cascade decks I see.
Doesn't need to be basic for the Shadow/Show lands. It's just of that type. I rarely have those coming in tapped in my games. I also still "gimp" myself by running at least 1 of the evolving wilds and fabled passage if it's 3 or more colors. But man, I remember the days of Vivid lands and Temples. Loved them early on. Land nostalgia is real. :)
I still play them for my budget and lower power decks and I still love them. I have attachment issues to the vivid cycle.
I had just put vivids on a buy list thinking they are the most under priced lands ever. somehow totally missed that they come into play tapped. amazing how much of a difference that makes.
52:50 I love this moment where Tomer is shaking his head in disgust while Seth is nodding in agreement :)
I just wanna say that i really like the mtggoldfish podcasts (yes both commander and the weekly main). This episode was a unexpected gift! I really hope the commander podcast become a weekly thing instead of 2 a month. I love the arguing and the debating! It really gives more insight behind the decisions of the crew. Please more podcasts!!! :)
Thanks! We plan on making it a weekly thing :)
The thumbnail with crim and a forest is just amazing
That's beautiful and I love it.
I like solemn a lot. I play it in decks with creature recursion, blink or artifact themes. I think it goes well in a lot of decks but I no longer think it's an auto include unless you can get extra value from it
I agree with Seth 100%: the more I play, the fewer tutors I run.
everyone: you can't play wheel of fortune seth its too expensive
seth: they dont know what theyre talking about, 3 mana is a fantastic rate
I will say Mystic Remora does work in muldrotha, where you can just keep the cost at 1, sac it instead of upkeep2, recast with muldrotha for 1u
i do believe solemn is getting left behind
game idea: play cards printed only pre-2017 precon era. no new cards for nostalgia. Maybe you might find some old gems to revisit!
I have been there, an opponent plays a Solemn, and no one attacks into it, it was so absurd that I started to play it and it worked!! #facts
I only play it in my mono black list because is a way to feed the cabal coffers, outside of that I usually find better options in other colors.
But like, it _shouldn’t_ work. If it does, it’s way better, but opponents not attacking you because you have a Solemn are just choosing to give it an extra ability that says “Opponents can’t attack you.” They’re making it better than it actually is, and they’re not acknowledging that you’ll get it to die eventually either way, so they’re just wasting time letting you be immune to aggro just so you can eventually draw a card anyways.
But hey, if they do, hell yeah. You milk that for all it’s worth! If that ability was actually on the card it’d be insane, and that’s basically what you’re getting, so play that sad boi even more and hope they never wisen up.
Wheel of fortune is my favorite card in all of magic. The amount of times I've just caused chaos with it by casting it on the very first turn with a mana crypt just to make my opponents "mulligan" one more time is beyond hilarious.
No one would argue that Sakura tribe elder is bad. The reason for that is that it's basically rampant growth that chump blocks. Solemn does the same thing. Yes it costs 2 more mana, but there are multiple upsides as well. First of all Steve isn't actually a rampant growth because you have to sac it to get the land. Solemn gets the land right away and can also threaten to block for multiple turns or be sacrificed to activate a different effect. Also because you sac it Steve has no chance of actually killing what you block, Solemn actually goes to combat and therefore is a more threatening blocker that might actually kill something. And of course it also draws a card and can go in non green decks. It's definitely worth the extra 2.
Steve's power doesn't at all come from being able to block.
Its rampant growth that *also* is easier to tutor and recur than actual rampant growth, and can sometimes block for a turn maybe but probably not since it will only be on the table for a round.
Solemn has a lot of upside, but 4 is a way bigger cost if you're not going to abuse it.
I love how Richard thinks there are only 2 draw spells in Black, when there are more like 20. Same goes for just about every color.
Mono black just doesn't really get decent cantrippy cards. Sometimes you just want to hit your land drops. Black has nights whisper and sign in blood. At 3 you have skeletal scrying. Most of the other card draw in black requires multiple pieces or death triggers. IMHO it's hard to play monoblack control, you pretty much have to play monoblack aristocrats
@@lukemackinlay5126 There are just a ton of draw sources in Black. Even when you include activatable ones in the form of enchantments.
The problem is most people don't consider the draw with additional costs. But that is the flavor of black. Black has to compromises and make sacrifices to gain knowledge and power. They're there, we just need to stop denying their use.
@@VexylObby you're completely right. One of the other problems with black is when you're talking about low cmc draw you really start getting into power. Once you want to talk about efficiency then you have to ask yourself why you aren't playing Necro or doomsday or tutors. My gripe with the color (as a mono black lover) is that it feels bad to blow your budget on staple cards instead of fun splashy ones.
I am a Timmy and a budget player though so there's that 💀👍
@@lukemackinlay5126 Which is why I don't go mono-color I think it SHOULD feel limited.
i would love to see the old school commander clash episode where every body has to build a deck with the cards they used in the beginning and see all the complaining about how the decks are that are only compose of cards the crew saw as good during that time.
That’s such a good idea, it has to happen
I mean there's a few episodes that are nearly like that.
The main problem with Solemn is you dont want to be ramping 1 mana on turn 4 and waiting possibly 3 turn just to draw a card. When you can cast your commander or actual set up for you game plan. I'd rather play a thaumatic compass.
Thaumatic is like the world's slowest, most mana-expensive Phyrexian Arena that can only draw basic lands. If you look at Solemn Simulacrum as a rampant growth, it's over-costed. But then you start looking at the _synergies_ and it becomes something great. Unbelievably good in Flicker/Copy/Reanimate/ETB decks for obvious reasons, it's an artifact for artifact synergies, it's a creature with a death trigger for your creature and aristocrat decks, it's colorless land ramp option for Blue/Red/Black which all (ESPECIALLY Black) care about having basic lands, etc etc. Looking at it in a vacuum it looks OK at best, but as soon as you start considering its interactions with other cards it shoots up in usefulness.
The intro could have been an edited version of
"We don't talk anymore"
to cards "we don't play anymore"
:D
We definitely need a commander clash highlights short of Seth bidding all his life to wheel of misfortune.
Something possible for the future, maybe? Would love to see at least a brief pop-up somewhere of the cards you mention alongside the one on screen? I usually know what most of the cards do, as I assume most will, but it would be a great reminder to have them pop-up.
As always, quality content. Has me making a few cuts from my main EDH deck ;)
Thanks guys!
I love how Tunnel Vision used to be a Crim thing. I remember people on Magic Online used to love that card. Then Rise of the Eldrazi happened!
The fact that solemn gets a land is huge. Also most commander decks are
Sacrifice/graveyard, Artifact, Blink. Even in spellslingers it gives you a blocker against early aggro.
Solemn is great, 4 mana for a 2/2 body, ramp, enter effect, and replaces itself. Its so good and a great budget card too.
Really love your guy's podcast. Keep it up!
Fun video idea:
Maybe a podcast reviewing your CC moments as a group.
PS: S4, E26 REALLY deserves a CC moment. That ending.
Harmonize is the best green draw spell. Sometimes you just need to draw a few cards to get your other green draw spells going again.
Agreed! I'll run Harmonize in addition to Shamanic Revelation and Camaraderie in a go-wide deck, because sometimes you need to draw when you don't have a ton in hand and board just got wiped.
Ive stopped including solemn because i felt like spending 4 mana on a rampant growth with tiny extra while my opponent cast a smothering tithe or a bomb since he ramped earlier
Solemn is fantastic let me kind of break down my thought process.
Salem is assembly rampant growth and elvish visionary stapled together. And with its cost of 4CMC you pay the exact same rate as you would for seeing those two spells individually so you gain the benefit of having two in one. Comparatively you get the benefits of it being colorless so it can go in decks that aren't just green but it also doesn't require any colored mana so no matter what for pips you have on the table you can cast solemn and get the color you're missing to keep pace with the rest of the table.
Additionally it has all the benefits of the creature type for example jump blocker sacrifice fodder planes walk hanger aristocrats fodder etc.
In 2022 we can look at just what's printed on the card and whether it's good or not or efficient or not we have to reasonably gauge what that's going to be in and it's doing the job of ramp and fixing in addition to card draw and any synergies with the creature subtype. And that doesn't even mention the other applicable center to this can have with ETB flickering the artifact super type.
Solemn does a little bit of everything in a colorless package that is on equivalent CC to comparable cards.
4 mana to tutor a tapped land is a bad rate, at least in my meta. and you don't get the card draw unless you can kill your own creature--card isn't bad, but I don't think it goes in decks that can't abuse it's etb and dies triggers
Coat of Arms is basically a colorless Sliver Legion thanks for the idea Richard i will use it and Door of Destinies in my Sliver Legion deck
I was so hyped for a second i thought we were finally getting the scoops sippy cup. oh well.
I absolutely agree with the statement on tutors in edh. They feel like they do against the idea of the format.
That being said: I opened a Japanese Mystical Archive Demonic Tutor and like hell am I not gonna play that beauty!
A point that I think was missed is you can run snarls and any land that has a basic land type, you don't have to run basics for the snarls.
Seth's reaction to wheel of fortune was hilarious.
If you like [[thumatic compass]] for land fixing, consider [[realmbreaker, the invasion tree]] instead. It's more efficient at 2 to activate. It also puts the land on the battlefield, so it's not just fixing, it's ramp. --And you might not get a maze out of it, but it never hurts to throw a few praetors in your deck. ;)
Wholeheartedly agree about tutors. I still play some tutors like open the armory specifically for my voltrons, but still the point of the format is the unpredictability
I’m glad you guys didn’t try to shoehorn in the word tier list in the title. I get that it helps with clicks, but it’s nice to see something different from time to time.
I feel like wotc will print another "secret rendezvous" that draws you and your opponent 4 cards for 4 mana, Richard will say something like "it's better than harmonize, return of the wildspeaker, necropotence etc." and then you all will buy him straitjacket and send to Arkham Asylum.
Solemn hasn’t been worth it for me for a while if you can’t recur or blink it. It’s 4 mana for one land and just isn’t worth it.
So I think bounce lands have increased in value ever since MDFCs came out. You played your MDFC land on turn two and you are running out of gas on turn seven…then you draw a bounce land! Return the MDFC land to your hand.
Fun fact if you say Mindslaver someone and exile their commander you can opt to leave it exiled as you control that players turn thus permanently getting rid of a commander unless they Mirror of Fate. Just saying something that Crim would love
I cut solemn from my blink decks bc white just ramps so much better with cards like “Knight of the White Orchard” as it brings in any plains card and it comes in untapped for 2 less mana (more color intensive yes). I’ve purposely held back playing a land, played Knight/Orchid, blinked it, then played the land and matched the green deck, then immediately passed them on lands.
46:30 - I always put either Strip Mine, Wasteland, or both in my decks because there are so many land-based wincons and nobody runs land destruction because "sOciAL cOnTrAcT" which means that the Field of the Dead player just gets a free win once it comes out. It's also my default target when an opponent plays Tempt With Discovery, because then if they _do_ find one of the wincon lands, I can just destroy it immediately.
I love solemn in most non green decks, he literally synergizes with half the deck themes, artifacts, death triggers, blink, panharmonicon , creatures
As far as tutors, do you run Recruiters? Trinket Mage? Crop Rotation or Sylvan Scrying?
***
As far as Temples, I run them in one 3-color deck, Aminatou and two 2-color decks: Boros and Minna and Denn (I can bounce it and replay it if I’m running out of gas).
1:05:50 Solemn is pretty solid. A-Tier card. Also if you run Sword of Hearth and Home, ABSOLUTELY run Solemn *just in case* you manage to get both on the board.
PS: deck I put Solemn in;
- Oketra the True
- Reaper King
- Yarok
- Alela
- Jodah
- Osgir
- Atemsis
Brago loves sad robot too. Though cheaper mana rocks are also good with him
I just came to say that I play Zof Consumption in 2 decks: Yuriko and Gilanra/Vial Smasher. The high MV makes it work there!
Yo that's actually pretty spicy in Yuriko ngl
Isn't the front side of the card 0?
If you guys do a dual land tier list, you’ve gotta follow up with a utility land tier list and/or colorless land tier list. Madblind Mountain! Reliquary Tower! Crumbling Vestige!
I agree with Richard, Harmonize is underrated. Not because people don't play it enough, but because they don't know why its so good. Is the only unconditional card draw in green that works at any stage of the game and at any situation. It was first printed in Planar Chaos as a color break, and there will never be a card like this in green. 10 years ago it was considered a "cheat" for green to have this card, and think that is the correct description even today. I just think people have forgotten about that.
I like to think of wheels as hand disruption for enemies not card draw. Usually if you're wheeling then you want the cards but your opponents usually have been planning their gameplan around the cards in their hands.
I think the fact that Harmonize doesn't synergize with most things green is trying to do, it gets the cut even though it's a good card on its own.
I feel like Solemn Simulacrum is in the middle of where you all placed it with a slight tilt towards being a staple. I don't put it in every deck but most decks outside of CEDH, spellslinger, and non-landfall green decks benefit from it. Like at this point the "top 10 Commander cards" are a bunch of mana rocks, things that cost 100's or 1000's, and cards designed for the format. This probably doesn't even hit the top 25 maybe even 50.
Yep
Solemn can really only fit in 1 or maybe color decks that don’t have green. Once you’re playing three colors the talisman’s signets, and sol ring et Alia just out pace the card. You basically never want to ramp on 4 as it’s usually not doing enough to advance your board state.
Temples are good to play turn 1 in lower power where decks often play nothing. While temples can interfere with two and three mana plays they also speed up getting the next land after you play out the ones in your hand. They are kind of like less risky bounce lands that way. Temples like cycling lands also help with drawing too many lands in the mid to late game in lower power games.
Yes but often the downside of entering tapped is greater than the benefit of the scry 1. Too often you can’t play on curve with tapped lands so i tend to favor basics or other options unless it really is worth it.
One of my favorite commander plays was copying someone else’s decree of pain with dual caster mage and drawing 17 cards.
That sounds amazing
The arts
Every time I watch one of these videos I am amazed how different they are playing the format than me and my friends do. Not playing Mystic Remora, Strip Mine and Vampiric Tutor sound just crazy to me.
Most of my pod stopped playing a single non land tutor of any kind in our decks, about two years ago. It’s too samey.
Also just feels against the spirit of singleton.
1:05:42 Solemn is the first card in many decks for me. I've never cut one except to swap the art lol.
i loved when the crew's soul collectively left them during the Zof Consumption talk
Solemn is so good! I wanna use it in almost every deck!
I just built my first commander deck and I have so many of these cards in it 😂 even thaumatic compass LOL
Richard is right that green has no unconditional card draw outside of Harmonize (and Sylvan Library) but he's wrong that 4 mana draw 3 makes the cut.
Solemn Simulacrum isn't worth it without synergies in green or white decks, otherwise it's still excellent.
No solemn in green deck for sure. In non-green decks, If I can abuse his ramp/draw part (for example, in a reanimator deck, in a sacrifice deck, in a blink deck, etc.) I will put it in. But if not, its too late to ramp. I prefer running a lot of 2-mana mana rocks, even if they are more susceptible to be blown up, because it let me play more spells and do more stuff during an average game of magic, and let me play my commander even faster than if I was ramping with a solemn. Plus, it doesn't give you mana rightaway, as for a 2-mana mana rock, you can use it rightaway in late-game.
I play Solemn Similacrum in my Olivia Crimson Bride deck, lots of ways to cast it and cheat it back from the graveyard, perpetually getting lands and card draw, it puts in work!
I wish Phil was on these conversations.
Seth's take on remora is the best take. 1 mana draw minimum 2 cards is great. It's good early and late. There's a reason it's a cedh staple.
if solemn is your only ramp spell in hand and you are tapping out turn 4 to play it, I think its bad
Coming over from the Podcast to respond to Richard on Sad Robot. I'm mostly with Seth and Crim. I think Solemn Simulacrum is still a very solid card but doesn't make sense in every deck. To Richard's credit, ramp is one of the strongest things you can do. However Solemn probably makes it in exactly non green Mono color decks, in Grixis colors decks, artifact decks, blink decks, and Panharmonicon style decks. This doesn't sell Solemn short. That's a wide variety of decks. It simply doesn't make the cut in most decks (not all) that have green, and nothing 4C+. Soooo it makes it in most decks. Now, of those most decks that it can make it, should you always run it? Hmmm. Probably not. That's a little dogmatic imo. But would Solemn feel bad in those most decks? Also probably not. Solemn almost always gets you 2 cards for 1, 1 of which is ramp. That should NEVER be sold short.
I run solemn in any non-green deck unless there's an outstanding reason why (I don't run it in my Prosper deck because Prosper is also four mana and he ramps by himself the turn after). I think people kind of underrate just having creatures on the board. Also I tend to run decks that get me attacked and its ramp and a blocker in one lol.
Would be interesting to see some "classic" edh meta decks. Ignore any modern rule changes to the best of your ability ( like the tuck rule)
I cut solemn from every deck except my mono-black ones that have Cabal Coffers/Stronghold. BUT i will still stand with Richard that Secret Rendezvous is amazing!
I agree with Tomer and Richard on Solemn
In non artifact decks sol ring I've been colour screwed so many times that I don't trust anything that doesn't produce coloured mana.
Down with Richard, DOWN! :P Saff is absolutely right. Even with jank decks, I'd still rather minimise tutor, especially so, with the "search-anythings".
I only run solemn in decks that synergize with it in some way.
I think the show land are still decent in my opinion but for two color deck only because two color I run more basic so it's easier to come untap. I don't put the any scry land any of my two color deck because they always always come tap so it's really ruins my tempo unless it's a budget I would run them
In 2 colors and heavy basic use it's good, isn't it? because you shouldn't keep a one lander
In three colors I can see getting clunky though