I say the added politics of saving an opponent and then them returning the favor in a larger way is worth mentioning. People don't seem to consider the added ability to politic with these sorts of effects. IE: If I save you can you do X, Y, or Z (with more value than the fog or single target removal would have done). That said, still run enough removal. -_-
@Servbot40 I'd say it being free to cast for a good chunk of occasions has it's worth. Especially for someone going wide, getting to set up and then protect yourself for free has value to it. Sometimes your removal is simply either too expensive or at sorcery speed, so buying time has it's use. You still do have those options, but in a singleton format, I think it's worth appreciating having one more. Especially with green, who don't always have their best answers to things like wide boards or infinite burn-loops at instant speed.
@Servbot40 Eh, I think it's a fine thing to have when you're tapped out and can't afford to pay your removal at that exact moment. Sometimes, the only thing you need is more time on the clock.
Obscuring Haze could be used as a Fog, yes. Obscuring Haze could more efficiently be used to stop Glint-Horn Buccaneer//Curiosity combo if the blue players at the table couldn't successfully respond. There are other cases that aren't so niche, but it does say all damage, not _COMBAT_ damage and I think that nuance was left out of the conversation because it is a crucial distinction.
@Servbot 40 agreed. I would never run it. I just think that the conversation would've been better if the "damage vs. combat damage" distinction was made.
Just a little thing about Infernal Sovereign : you can't really be denied a draw with it. Since you're skipping the entire draw step, you go from you upkeep straight to your main phase, so if you skept your draw step you will always be able to play a land or a sorcery speed card and get a draw. And if it's dealt with before the draw step, well you'll get your typical draw anyway. Maybe someone told it after the point I'm actually listening but I neede to write this out before I forget it.
Dress Down is exemplary. A two mana, one blue pip Stifle that draws. Although a little niche, a cheap removal spell that draws a card is way too good to overlook.
Stops elesh norn buff, stops thassas oracle effect, etc. Pitches to force and pact and if nothing else gets a card and replaces itself. It's an auto include in my book.
I'm with him on that. Picture of the plants with a newspaper, or to be shown prominently in a live video. If not, then we contact the relevant authorities in Canada and report them as missing, presumed dead.
@@caasIsirhC I got 1 copy and I honestly would put it in more decks. The amount of times you just needed one more turn is wild. It's also just damage in general, not just combat damage. So depending on the combo you might actually just save yourself, for example the new infinite with new Ob Nix and All Will Be One.
Small situational benefits over other fogs is that Obscuring Haze can also shut off certain creature based combos like Niv curiosity because it doesn't specify combat damage.
Filter Out. Guys. It gets rid of Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Black Market Connections, Sphere of Safty, all their treasures, clues, food, mana rocks, Utopia Sprawls, Rooftop Storms, Ghostly Prisons. This card essentially Timewalks them. If you bounce just 2 signets or something it takes them 4 mana to come back. Sure they still get 2 mana but think about how big a deal it is on turn 4 to have 2 mana instead of 6. And against any kind of treasure or artifact/enchantment deck this resets them. If they are playing stax or you need to be able to attack past a propoganda style effect this does that. Think of the affect of removing a smothering Tithe and all treasures on their endstep. Even if this gets 1 or 2 or 3 of your things you are A OK because your main game plan is unaffected. It also stops combos that require an artifact or enchantment. Or planeswalkers. Its at least as good as a Feed the Swarm because this bounces theros gods, etc.
My secret tech is Incarnation Technique in basically any deck with 20+ creatures. There is always a deck at the table that you can target in such a way that they are very unlikely to get anything good, think the spellslinger or the artifact player. But when you have good creatures in your deck, boom! You get two of them. A nice side effect other than filling your GY is that the opponents have no interaction points between the spell being cast and the creatures entering play, so you can take advantage of that with certain very powerful creatures, like razaketh.
Just wanted to share my favorite tech :) : Mystic Reflection! It deals "permanently" with must-answer commanders (as long as it's not aristocrats), can be used for fun, flexible on-the-spot combos, if necessary can be used as creature counter, and is just a generally fun card.
I'm with Tomer and Crim on Filter Out. The fact that it doesn't hit creatures is easily balanced out by how cheap it is and the instant speed aspect. Its definitely at its strongest in creature heavy decks or spellslinger decks that don't have many permanents in the first place, but even just doing it on the end step so you get to redeploy first is a big deal. Also a good way to deal with treasure spamming
Obscuring haze is even better than most fogs in another way as well. It just says damage from creatures. Not combat damage. It is good against things like Purphoros and Terror of the peaks which tend to be win cons in creature based decks which include red.
@@lettucegod5505 Obscuring haze specifies damage not loss of life, so it doesn't work against things like blood artist, extort triggers or meathook massacre but would against mayhem devils, Gharna Bloodfist of Keld and Syr Konrad. Damage causes loss of life but they are two different things according to the rules, confused the hell out of me when I first encountered it.
@@lettucegod5505 Exactly, as long as the source of damage was a creature, just realized I put meathook in my last post but that is an enchantment. So things like raid bombardment still work.
The problem with removal vs fogs is that when I'm playing one of my aggressive, creature based decks and somebody removes my best creature, I don't care. But if I swing out to kill somebody and they fog me, I lose. "Fogs are situational" but the situation is a phase that every player gets each turn and the way most decks win games.
A 3/4 Vigilance that makes even more bodies is incredibly *decent* as free upside to your Land fixing and reanimation or ramp card: Restoration of Eiganjo is an all-star value card.
8:04 I was thinking about this as soon as Seth mentioned the fog. Teferis is even better because sometimes it's a fog, sometimes it's a board wipe protection.
They seemed to be focused on Restoration as land ramp which I think takes away from it. I"ve used this card for awhile and found it useful to just hit your 4th land drop on turn, put a 2 cmc card into play & play a 4 drop (ie. commander).
@@jamesclare1858 exactly! At the minimum it’s land ramp, but it’s ceiling can be much higher. Not to mention you can also discard a 2 mana rock or Knight of White Orchid and then return it to play if you’d rather go the route Tomer was thinking.
Restoration of Eiganjo is pure gas in my Shorikai, Genesis Engine deck. I'm already looking every turn and filling up the grave so these sun titan-esque revival effects are already good, but the fact that it makes sure you're hitting a land drop and/or ramping you early on is so good
@25:05, Seth, when you bounce their permeants to their hand once they pass second main, they can only keep the 7 best cards and will have to discard. I know this isnt like DESTROY/EXILE everything but 3 mana to hold up at your leisure, Filter Out is good.
One of the things people don't appreciate about fogs is the offensive capability. You can swing absolutely recklessly and not have to worry about revenge. I've had people swing back with everything and leave themselves exposed to still more swings, like if you get somebody tilted at you or if you're down to two players fog is pretty much straight wincon.
I love that no matter what card they bring up everyone griefs it a little bit because we have four almost completely conflicting play styles with these four, completely different points of views and opinions that are all completely valid because of what Magic is as a game
thats why I love these discussion podcasts, so many viewers seem to miss this though and think 1 person was right for every card and the rest are fools.
Tomer is most definitely underating fog effects. Moments Peace is such a great fog also because most people dont see the flashback fog from the graveyard coming then die on the crack back.
22:20 I would play filter out IN enchantress itself! It saves your stuff from a board wipe and retriggers your card draw and etbs while setting others behind.
In defense of swat effects. If they cast auras or combat tricks or recursion or a tutor this is a counterspell. They go to reanimate worldgorger dragon and you make them get a mana dork. They cast vampiric tutor for a combo piece you make them get a land. They get eldrazi conscription or phyresis and you put it on a creature you control. And if you can copy any of those you are way way better off. They also work great as removal in spellslinger decks and mono red decks. You can get someone's removal even if it isn't hitting you. EX So opponent A has a smothering tithe and a ghostly prison. You need to attack. Opponent B casts naturalize on the smothering tithe. You redirect it to the ghostly prison and can take opponent A out next turn.
I always try to have at least one Fog effect in all of my decks. There are some situations where Fog is literally the only answer. I am also becoming a big fan of Filter Out. End Step it on the Enchantress player and they need to discard down to hand size. People also just play big durdley Artifacts and Enchantments. Make them re-play those cards so you have another opportunity to counter them.
Breach the Multiverse is absolutely cracked. First time I saw it put on the stack, I told my buddy it was too expensive for not enough. And then I got played against it in a pod and I’ve been nothing but impressed every time I’ve seen it.
Restoration of Eiganjo is genuinely fire. It has synergy with flicker/blink decks as well to flip the creature back to the saga and continually snag Plains. The pitch/reanimate chapter is so good for retrieving spent sac creatures like Dauntless dismantler, as well as cheating stax pieces into play besides just doubling up on land drops. It gets back fetches. It massively overperformed relative to what I had expected when I slotted it in and is a reliable roleplayer with a high ceiling given the reight synergies.
Inkshield is literally the card that has killed me the most in commander in the last year and a half. I've been blown out by it 4 times as I try to go for lethal attacks. No other single card has killed me as much as this one card.
@@Programme021 a counter will deal with a lot, but if you don't have stack interaction it's really hard to deal with this. If you attack me for little damage, I will just take it or chump block. If you attack with anything over 10, I can hit you back for more than 20. If I am playing Aristocrats and this hits, it's almost certainly an auto-win: you get drained when tokens etb by Ayara/Corpse Knight, you get drained by Blood Artist/Zulaport if you try to wrath or if I sac them. Without exagerating... Of the 5 times I won with Orzhov Aristocrats, 4 were due to Inkshield, and 1 was a wrath on a full board with Teysa + Blood Artist + Vizkopa Guildmage. It was the best card in the deck by a mile.
Inkshield works for me most times I hold open mana. The trick is to look at your opponents' boards. If they have creatures, then ask the following questions: 1. Am I archenemy? 2. Does the player who is archenemy consider me a threat? 3. Is someone about to swing at everyone for 40? If the answer to any of these is yes, then hold open 5 mana. Politic so that you're the threat, or do something to aggravate the potential attacker. 9 times out of 10 it'll do the trick.
I like Bolt Bend, but I really like Bolt Bender. It’s a fun win condition in my Zada deck. There are a lot of threaten effects that do something else for you, like make a treasure or add some mana or something that I would want to be running in my Zada deck anyway, but if I cast one of those on Zada and then flip Bolt Bender, I can change the targets of the copies onto my opponents’ creatures and steal all of their big threats for a turn, usually winning me the game. And it doubles as protection from counterspells and the like, even the uncounterable ones like Dovin’s Veto. I love it. It also happens to be a goblin for my tribal synergies. I love it in that deck.
the problem with Viridian Revel is how many green enchantments that have 'When X, then draw a card'. I would typically prefer the ones I can control like Guardian Project. its been on my almost list many times but just end s up in the last cuts list
I love Filter Out! One thing that wasn’t mentioned too heavily is blue doesn’t deal with enchantments very well. Think about Smothering Tithe, Phyrexian Arena, Rhystic Study, all the problematic cards that get set up early game. For 3 mana at instant speed to bounce it all?? That’s awesome!
1:21:07 I'd also like to point out with route it is still a sorcery on the stack if you pay 2 to play it as an instant. If ever that matters in commander.
i've been focusing on running protection instead of removal, including fogs, and i like it a lot. i 'm essentially saying go ahead and play whatever you want but it ain't gonna help you if youcan't touch me. i' lose to combat damage 85% of the time, why not address it?
I think Viridian Revel is somewhat meta dependent, mostly by if players in the group have up to date decks. If the boomer has an old deck pre-treasure era it's a lot weaker. But I do think it's very worth testing! But that Jund deck Tomer pitched for it does actually sound sick
Secret recent tech for me: Serum Sovereign, a poor persons Consecrated Spinx - Obscuring Haze, love the shout out, I love this card and have had many blow out turns by making it look like I am all tapped out and open to simply Obscuring Haze them and swing on their open board on my turn. - Constant Mists is amazing in a Korvold land matters deck, buyback basically becomes Sacrifice land put +1/+1 counter on Korvold and Draw a card - Filter out has been pretty fun in Animar - Viridian Revel + Descent into Avernus - I been using Hatred in my Dihada Binder of Wills deck, giving a creature Lifelink, Indestructibe, Vigilance, and surprise my opponent with instant death, gain back all my life= Winning at all costs. Hatred has done some silly things in power matters mana dork (ex: Selvala) decks also, kind of like a Black version of Channel. - See Double is great, I love instant copy/clone effects, sending some love to Elminsters simulacrum I've had some crazy blow out turns with this card despite costing 6cmc :P
I love Haunt of the Hightower so much. I came back to Magic after not playing for over a decade and this was in the current set and I built a Dimir mill deck and I fell back in love with the game and specifically Dimir all over
Stasis Coffin is my secret tech. It you can play it, if necessary activate it as it's not too expensive. But it provides a heavy deterence to being attacked without threatening your opponent's board presence, but still threatening a counter attack if they force an activation.
Constant mists is genuinely the reason most of my combat based decks have some form of alternative wincon. I completely agree with Richard that some decks just, cannot beat a constant mists and a crucible of worlds.
Board state threats are usually taken into account iv never been 3v1 oned because of a constant mist. Generally you fog the player trying to kill the table then everyone hits the guy that just almost won. Then you redo threat assessment and if your board isn't that scary they will go after the actual threat to them.
@@hansrudolph8343 The point isn't to spam Constant Mists when there are 4 players in the game. In the early, you likely won't cast it often. In the mid game, you deploy Constant Mists when necessary to protect yourself from an alpha strike. In the late game, ideally once the game has reduced to a 1v1, you loop Constant Mists with Crucible, Excavator, or similar cards keeping your land count high. In other words, it is more of a prison-style finisher that can save your hide in the middle of a game if need be than something you try to derp on a full table from the beginning of the game.
Inkshield is a fantastic card in an agro deck. Anything lower to the ground where you want to run out cards on the first 4 turns leaves you not wanting to over extend. From there you can often be playing with 5+ mana up. I play it in Breena with a lot of 1 drops, works like a charm. Bolt Bend being your instant speed, on the stack, interaction is fantastic for Jund decks. It's often hard to find something in those colors that can stop a Counterspell or a Time Warp or a Peer into the Abyss or a Blue Sun's Zennith. Bolt Bend not only stops those from having their expected outcome, it positively interacts with those spells by stealing their effects and all for only one mana. For personal secret tech cards Tainted Strike, Silence, and Angel's Grace take the cake for me. Tainted Strike can either delete a player, fog a creature, or shrink an indestructible creature. It goes in any deck I can shoe horn it into. Silence and Angel's Grace can often timewalk an opponent or positively interact on the stack with another player trying to combo out which is rare enough for me to warrant an inclusion for most of my decks.
Tomers reversal exists as a 100% version for 4 mana (Wild Ricochet) and let me tell you, 90% of the time i just hold up mana for no reason at all with that spell, and at 3 mana it would be just as bad, except at least being 100% i can use it as a reverberate on a good spell without targets is actually valuable.
If your playgroup is inundated by Teferi's Protections and Clever Concealments may i suggest Time and Tide to bring those cowards back to face the wrath!
I think fogs are a compliment to board wipes. Think of pub games, not often at a casual table are people strategically and opportunistically chipping in little bits of damage all the time throughout a game to increase their odds of winning later because that makes early enemies and people dont like that. What often happens, then, is people build and build and build into these game winning board states, drop a big Craterhoof effect, then kill someone from 40 in one swing. Then if they dont die on the crackback, they win the game. Fog effects swing the balance of those types of games at an incredibly efficient rate, creating an opening for a follow up boardwipe to reset a game. While that doesnt happen all the time, its not something that never happens, and I agree that fogs are super underrated.
Regarding the question at the very end: I’m team fog. I don’t use fogs at all really but I don’t use Filter Out either and if I had to choose between preventing all damage or bouncing non-creature permanents, I would prevent the damage. There have been way more situations where I was facing a massive attack for lethal compared to when there was an annoying artifact or enchantment that I wanted gone for just one turn
A personal favorite is Mandate of Peace. My pod has a combat heavy meta and while the bare fog effect is nice there, I also use it to stifle attack triggers, combat tricks, or damage triggers.
@@light-chemistry Yeah, I usually agree with Tomer but he missed the mark with this one. I think sometimes they let their own play experiences bias their takes too much. Most play groups have players with big creatures. Getting an opponent to whiff on a big swing can easily knock them out of the game.
The uncommon Anger cycle is from the graveyard-heavy Judgment set. So are Genesis and Glory, but Judgment was also the Green/White set, so those colors got rares that did something similar.
So for anyone wondering about the "Reversal" style cards, think of it this way- in a non-blue deck, these are your counterspells (with extra value). At worst Wyll's Reversal is Negate with +1 cost and extra value. The other two are almost always even better rate Negate. If you're not running blue and you're in red you probably should have 2 to 3 of these effects. The applications for them are virtually limitless.
I'm playing viridian revel over sylvan library in my cedh deck these days as it consistently draws me 10+ cards a game, and has drawn my entire deck. Busted in a dockside heavy meta. Also kinda nutty with Culling Ritual after everyone ramps with 0/1/2 mana rocks - sweep the board clean, get mana for it and cards to spend the mana on.
Something I believe you guys overlook is that inkshield creates the bodies for any prevented damage to any players. Of course somebody may not attack the player with 5 open mana, but it doesn't have to fog for you, so it can politic and create a deadly board. You were evaluating it as a fog but its really just instant speed token creation. Generally not worth popping off unless your expecting to prevent seven or more damage... 5 mana for 14 power of flyers is good in most formats
Deep Gnome Terramancer worked well for my buddy. We were playing lots of land ramp cards like Three Visits but also the 5 color deck kept triggering from their fetches.
In casual people often dont need a fog unless their opp is swinging out for the win. Inkshield not only lets you survive but lets your opponents die and makes you a ton of tokens to swing back for lethal where regular fogs would let all of your opponents survive and beat you next turn. Inkshield isnt a good card but it is a timmy card and in casual formats it is amazing since most people have creature based decks.
Breach also mills and reanimates in the same effect, not two seperate lines. So If a card uses a trigger to shuffle in, like old Eldrazi, it's a valid target to reanimate.
What I like about obscuring haze is it’s an asymmetrical fog. Which I think makes it playable. Especially in battleship commander where people just are constantly populating the board and trying to win through combat damage, I think it gets less good when you enter high power decks with combo finishers. (Powers 7-10) but if you’re playing mid power I see no reason not to play it if you’re in green, especially since a good percentage of the time it’s free. Though my favorite fog is constant mists. In fact I run a couple fogs in my Savra sacrifice deck, as a way to buy time. So I can establish my recursion loops.
Glory is absolutely amazing! I've never heard of this card so it definitely goes in my avacyn deck! Give everything protection until i can cast avacyn? Yes please. Though how how to get in the graveyard? But it's definitely awesome in any white+X graveyard deck
One of the funniest interactions I ever had was when I was facing someone in a pod who had Viridian Revel and I was running a treasure heavy deck. They started laughing when they played it bc they kept drawing when I would crack treasures. And I ended up drawing smothering tithe and played it which made him laugh even more he had said “haha you’re just gonna keep feeding me all this free draw, you’re screwed”. But then when I noticed he was tapped out it clicked lmao. Started cracking my treasures and milled him out on the spot…he didn’t think about that 😂.
The reason fogs are situational is the same reason removal is situational: you don't run enough. If you had 4 fogs in hand, that's 4 attacks you can defend against and likely less than 7 mana total. This could be what you need to get to your next turn. If you remove 1 baddy your opponents have it might not be enough to get to your turn to win the game but if you can prevent 3 combats of your opponents ganging up on you to get back to you, it's over.
Just going to say that you can't kill infernal sovereign at the end of the draw phase (and make your opponent skip their draw without the upside of having the demon) because you skip your draw phase. Either your opponents kill it on your upkeep (at which point you get a draw phase), or you go to your first main with priority.
I'm pro Obscuring haze. It can be a fog, sure. But on top: It can be a one-sided combat trick. (your creatures arent affected, and you're in green.) And it disables so many non-combat damage effects, even combos and loops. The big upside of this compared to other effects is, that it isn't limited to combat damage. Oh and on top it can be free. Not a dead card. Versatile enough. Just don't be too afraid to never use it.
Filter out is build to bounce stax pieces on the end step before your combo turn. Good bye null rod, rule of law, blood moon, pithing needle, etc, etc…
I love Fogs. A Fog is one of the only things that can stop an infinite combo without being infinite itself (as long as the infinite combo revolves around infinite combat damage). I have pulled several major hat-tricks to win the game, despite my opponent going infinite, with a Fog. Usually Obscuring Haze
Speaking of fog effects, one of my fav tech cards in my mono white soldier tribal deck is Frontline Strategist. An old mono white morph that when flipped prevents all combat dmg from non-soldiers. Very niche, kinda/pretty jank, definitely a card that would be cut out, but I love it cause who expects anyone playing a random morph in mono white that is also a fog
Obscuring haze is NOT just combat damage, there are several cards that deal damage as parts of combos! Syr Konrad and reckless fireweaver come to mind
Aetherflux resevoir.
I say the added politics of saving an opponent and then them returning the favor in a larger way is worth mentioning. People don't seem to consider the added ability to politic with these sorts of effects. IE: If I save you can you do X, Y, or Z (with more value than the fog or single target removal would have done). That said, still run enough removal. -_-
@Servbot40
I'd say it being free to cast for a good chunk of occasions has it's worth. Especially for someone going wide, getting to set up and then protect yourself for free has value to it. Sometimes your removal is simply either too expensive or at sorcery speed, so buying time has it's use. You still do have those options, but in a singleton format, I think it's worth appreciating having one more. Especially with green, who don't always have their best answers to things like wide boards or infinite burn-loops at instant speed.
@Servbot40
Eh, I think it's a fine thing to have when you're tapped out and can't afford to pay your removal at that exact moment. Sometimes, the only thing you need is more time on the clock.
@Servbot40 obviously its not as good as teferis protection but you are also making an argument that puts teferis protection in the bad card category.
Obscuring Haze could be used as a Fog, yes. Obscuring Haze could more efficiently be used to stop Glint-Horn Buccaneer//Curiosity combo if the blue players at the table couldn't successfully respond. There are other cases that aren't so niche, but it does say all damage, not _COMBAT_ damage and I think that nuance was left out of the conversation because it is a crucial distinction.
Damage is so last decade though. Any player worth their weight in mountain dew will be using loss of life effects.
“Does it go in sea monster tribal?” Is the best question for Tomer
Why not Swords to Plowshare that Buccaneer instead?
@@commanderpower99 If you aren't running white, or have no way to produce white mana.
@Servbot 40 agreed. I would never run it. I just think that the conversation would've been better if the "damage vs. combat damage" distinction was made.
Just a little thing about Infernal Sovereign : you can't really be denied a draw with it. Since you're skipping the entire draw step, you go from you upkeep straight to your main phase, so if you skept your draw step you will always be able to play a land or a sorcery speed card and get a draw. And if it's dealt with before the draw step, well you'll get your typical draw anyway.
Maybe someone told it after the point I'm actually listening but I neede to write this out before I forget it.
Don't think it was mentioned - nice catch 👍🏾
Somebody alert the media, Seth has managed to successfully pronounce Eiganjo correctly. I am legitimately thrilled
No he didn't lmao
I wanna see that two headed giants game, where crim/tomer vs seth/richard settle once and for all who's favorite edh jank is coming out on top.
Richard and Seth fog tier list please!
Tomer trying to invite himself to the fog tier list when no one wants him there
PLEASE. constant mists is absurd, especially in landfall lists
Well, Ink Shield is obviously #1, then Constant Mists, then Selfless Squire. Everything else is up for debate.
@RevenantBacon disrespecting spore frog like that?
Dawn Charn op! :D
Whirlwind Denial
I consider it to be on the same level as Teferi's Protection.
It just shuts down whatever your opponents are doing to win.
Dress Down is exemplary. A two mana, one blue pip Stifle that draws. Although a little niche, a cheap removal spell that draws a card is way too good to overlook.
Stops elesh norn buff, stops thassas oracle effect, etc. Pitches to force and pact and if nothing else gets a card and replaces itself. It's an auto include in my book.
Pulled two in a mh2 box, just wanted to give it a shot because of it being a unique Interaction, now I'm running it in every blue deck I have 😅
I mean it's blue so of course it's over-powered for its cost
It's a cedh staple for a reason, but then again stax isn't a thing in regular edh as I've been told
@@adamfiliatreault3393 yah. If it was a white card it would be double the CMC/mv
Richard doesn't seem very convinced that Tomer's plants are fine 😂
I'm with him on that. Picture of the plants with a newspaper, or to be shown prominently in a live video. If not, then we contact the relevant authorities in Canada and report them as missing, presumed dead.
Isn’t he supposed to give them to a fan at some point lol
We need to see the plants alive and well Tomer....😂
Obscuring Haze has another upside in that you can use it on your attack step and prevent damage. So it can be proactive.
This! I have used it to K.O. people before.
@@damienjohnson3450 I'll be honest I still don't run it but it is more versatile than your standard fog.
And it prevents all damage not just combat damage
@@caasIsirhC I got 1 copy and I honestly would put it in more decks. The amount of times you just needed one more turn is wild. It's also just damage in general, not just combat damage. So depending on the combo you might actually just save yourself, for example the new infinite with new Ob Nix and All Will Be One.
Small situational benefits over other fogs is that Obscuring Haze can also shut off certain creature based combos like Niv curiosity because it doesn't specify combat damage.
Filter Out. Guys. It gets rid of Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Black Market Connections, Sphere of Safty, all their treasures, clues, food, mana rocks, Utopia Sprawls, Rooftop Storms, Ghostly Prisons. This card essentially Timewalks them. If you bounce just 2 signets or something it takes them 4 mana to come back. Sure they still get 2 mana but think about how big a deal it is on turn 4 to have 2 mana instead of 6. And against any kind of treasure or artifact/enchantment deck this resets them. If they are playing stax or you need to be able to attack past a propoganda style effect this does that. Think of the affect of removing a smothering Tithe and all treasures on their endstep. Even if this gets 1 or 2 or 3 of your things you are A OK because your main game plan is unaffected. It also stops combos that require an artifact or enchantment. Or planeswalkers. Its at least as good as a Feed the Swarm because this bounces theros gods, etc.
My secret tech is Incarnation Technique in basically any deck with 20+ creatures. There is always a deck at the table that you can target in such a way that they are very unlikely to get anything good, think the spellslinger or the artifact player. But when you have good creatures in your deck, boom! You get two of them. A nice side effect other than filling your GY is that the opponents have no interaction points between the spell being cast and the creatures entering play, so you can take advantage of that with certain very powerful creatures, like razaketh.
Love the technique cycle. I play healing technique in green life gain decks. I know Richard would like it, it's a sorcery skullwinder! Lol
Fogs are indeed super underrated. I've won more games after playing a fog than a targeted removal for sure!
fogs are only good in playgroups where combat actually matters
Fogs are overall subpar niche cards
@@dragondest4Most players win through combat one way or another.
@@marshallscot my playgroup is very combo heavy
@@dragondest4 start going under them then its a meta call
Filter Out is very obviously good. I have no idea why there was a debate there.
It's literally 3 mana Cyclonic Rift against a ton of decks.
Just wanted to share my favorite tech :) : Mystic Reflection! It deals "permanently" with must-answer commanders (as long as it's not aristocrats), can be used for fun, flexible on-the-spot combos, if necessary can be used as creature counter, and is just a generally fun card.
Avenger of zendikar into mystic reflections a massacre wurm is easily my favorite finisher lol
I'm with Tomer and Crim on Filter Out. The fact that it doesn't hit creatures is easily balanced out by how cheap it is and the instant speed aspect. Its definitely at its strongest in creature heavy decks or spellslinger decks that don't have many permanents in the first place, but even just doing it on the end step so you get to redeploy first is a big deal. Also a good way to deal with treasure spamming
a note about Berserk is its specifically a destroy effect. I've used it on my Blightsteel to ensure a kill and keep my creature.
Obscuring haze is even better than most fogs in another way as well. It just says damage from creatures. Not combat damage. It is good against things like Purphoros and Terror of the peaks which tend to be win cons in creature based decks which include red.
I was screaming at my monitor why Tomer said but my removal would stop a blood artist combo killing me🤓
@@lettucegod5505 Obscuring haze specifies damage not loss of life, so it doesn't work against things like blood artist, extort triggers or meathook massacre but would against mayhem devils, Gharna Bloodfist of Keld and Syr Konrad.
Damage causes loss of life but they are two different things according to the rules, confused the hell out of me when I first encountered it.
@@Pantjay okay so if it says, like x deals 1 damage to all players that would get ignored, but something like each player looses 1 life would not ?
@@lettucegod5505 Exactly, as long as the source of damage was a creature, just realized I put meathook in my last post but that is an enchantment. So things like raid bombardment still work.
The problem with removal vs fogs is that when I'm playing one of my aggressive, creature based decks and somebody removes my best creature, I don't care. But if I swing out to kill somebody and they fog me, I lose. "Fogs are situational" but the situation is a phase that every player gets each turn and the way most decks win games.
I play fogs in nearly every deck and they win me games all the time.
Seth’s facial expressions from 20:22 onwards are just gold
A 3/4 Vigilance that makes even more bodies is incredibly *decent* as free upside to your Land fixing and reanimation or ramp card: Restoration of Eiganjo is an all-star value card.
This pod was really good. Everyone was pretty reasonable. And it was odd to see Tomer and Crim agreeing on almost everything.
8:04 I was thinking about this as soon as Seth mentioned the fog. Teferis is even better because sometimes it's a fog, sometimes it's a board wipe protection.
Settle the wreckage
So glad to see Restoration of Eiganjo getting some love! Way to go, Seth
They seemed to be focused on Restoration as land ramp which I think takes away from it. I"ve used this card for awhile and found it useful to just hit your 4th land drop on turn, put a 2 cmc card into play & play a 4 drop (ie. commander).
@@jamesclare1858 exactly! At the minimum it’s land ramp, but it’s ceiling can be much higher. Not to mention you can also discard a 2 mana rock or Knight of White Orchid and then return it to play if you’d rather go the route Tomer was thinking.
Restoration is so gas with ossification in standard, love that card so much
I’m mostly impressed Seth managed to pronounce it correctly, because I’ve only ever heard him call it “Restoration of Ejanno”.
Restoration of Eiganjo is pure gas in my Shorikai, Genesis Engine deck. I'm already looking every turn and filling up the grave so these sun titan-esque revival effects are already good, but the fact that it makes sure you're hitting a land drop and/or ramping you early on is so good
@25:05, Seth, when you bounce their permeants to their hand once they pass second main, they can only keep the 7 best cards and will have to discard. I know this isnt like DESTROY/EXILE everything but 3 mana to hold up at your leisure, Filter Out is good.
One of the things people don't appreciate about fogs is the offensive capability. You can swing absolutely recklessly and not have to worry about revenge. I've had people swing back with everything and leave themselves exposed to still more swings, like if you get somebody tilted at you or if you're down to two players fog is pretty much straight wincon.
I love that no matter what card they bring up everyone griefs it a little bit because we have four almost completely conflicting play styles with these four, completely different points of views and opinions that are all completely valid because of what Magic is as a game
thats why I love these discussion podcasts, so many viewers seem to miss this though and think 1 person was right for every card and the rest are fools.
Tomer is most definitely underating fog effects. Moments Peace is such a great fog also because most people dont see the flashback fog from the graveyard coming then die on the crack back.
Always happy to see these episodes pop up in my subscriptions
22:20 I would play filter out IN enchantress itself! It saves your stuff from a board wipe and retriggers your card draw and etbs while setting others behind.
Fogs are strong, when you can safely swing your board out without retalitation. Always play 1 or 2 in my creature heavy decks.
In defense of swat effects.
If they cast auras or combat tricks or recursion or a tutor this is a counterspell. They go to reanimate worldgorger dragon and you make them get a mana dork. They cast vampiric tutor for a combo piece you make them get a land. They get eldrazi conscription or phyresis and you put it on a creature you control. And if you can copy any of those you are way way better off.
They also work great as removal in spellslinger decks and mono red decks. You can get someone's removal even if it isn't hitting you.
EX So opponent A has a smothering tithe and a ghostly prison. You need to attack. Opponent B casts naturalize on the smothering tithe. You redirect it to the ghostly prison and can take opponent A out next turn.
I legit can’t believe they were arguing about if “whenever you cast a spell, draw a card” is good 😂
They think that if any thing can die it's bad xD
At 20:20 seth's facial expression to crim saying "this card is huge!" Was amazing
seth always has the best expressions during these
I always try to have at least one Fog effect in all of my decks. There are some situations where Fog is literally the only answer.
I am also becoming a big fan of Filter Out. End Step it on the Enchantress player and they need to discard down to hand size. People also just play big durdley Artifacts and Enchantments. Make them re-play those cards so you have another opportunity to counter them.
"The logic! My brain is melting!" had me dying XD
Breach the Multiverse is absolutely cracked. First time I saw it put on the stack, I told my buddy it was too expensive for not enough. And then I got played against it in a pod and I’ve been nothing but impressed every time I’ve seen it.
Restoration of Eiganjo is genuinely fire. It has synergy with flicker/blink decks as well to flip the creature back to the saga and continually snag Plains. The pitch/reanimate chapter is so good for retrieving spent sac creatures like Dauntless dismantler, as well as cheating stax pieces into play besides just doubling up on land drops. It gets back fetches. It massively overperformed relative to what I had expected when I slotted it in and is a reliable roleplayer with a high ceiling given the reight synergies.
Lmao, Seth's facial expressions when Tomer and Crim talked about "Filter Out" were golden. Never saw him so confused before. xD
Inkshield is literally the card that has killed me the most in commander in the last year and a half. I've been blown out by it 4 times as I try to go for lethal attacks. No other single card has killed me as much as this one card.
My playgroup asked me to remove it, because it was an insta kill every time
It's so telegraphed though, isn't it?
@@Programme021 even if it is, what are people going to do? Not attack you anymore?
@@felipeguidolin1055 Attacking you for less, keeping a counter spell or politicing for a counter spell mostly I guess ?
@@Programme021 a counter will deal with a lot, but if you don't have stack interaction it's really hard to deal with this. If you attack me for little damage, I will just take it or chump block. If you attack with anything over 10, I can hit you back for more than 20. If I am playing Aristocrats and this hits, it's almost certainly an auto-win: you get drained when tokens etb by Ayara/Corpse Knight, you get drained by Blood Artist/Zulaport if you try to wrath or if I sac them.
Without exagerating... Of the 5 times I won with Orzhov Aristocrats, 4 were due to Inkshield, and 1 was a wrath on a full board with Teysa + Blood Artist + Vizkopa Guildmage. It was the best card in the deck by a mile.
I noticed the removal aspect of Berserk when I read it. Had to pause earlier to make sure I read it right. Good catch Seth! 1:13:50
Inkshield works for me most times I hold open mana. The trick is to look at your opponents' boards. If they have creatures, then ask the following questions:
1. Am I archenemy?
2. Does the player who is archenemy consider me a threat?
3. Is someone about to swing at everyone for 40?
If the answer to any of these is yes, then hold open 5 mana. Politic so that you're the threat, or do something to aggravate the potential attacker. 9 times out of 10 it'll do the trick.
I like Bolt Bend, but I really like Bolt Bender. It’s a fun win condition in my Zada deck. There are a lot of threaten effects that do something else for you, like make a treasure or add some mana or something that I would want to be running in my Zada deck anyway, but if I cast one of those on Zada and then flip Bolt Bender, I can change the targets of the copies onto my opponents’ creatures and steal all of their big threats for a turn, usually winning me the game. And it doubles as protection from counterspells and the like, even the uncounterable ones like Dovin’s Veto. I love it. It also happens to be a goblin for my tribal synergies. I love it in that deck.
the problem with Viridian Revel is how many green enchantments that have 'When X, then draw a card'. I would typically prefer the ones I can control like Guardian Project. its been on my almost list many times but just end s up in the last cuts list
A good part of fog effects is you can save someone else
I love Filter Out! One thing that wasn’t mentioned too heavily is blue doesn’t deal with enchantments very well. Think about Smothering Tithe, Phyrexian Arena, Rhystic Study, all the problematic cards that get set up early game. For 3 mana at instant speed to bounce it all?? That’s awesome!
“It synergizes with your blue mana.” Now that is pure comedy gold 😂@1:34:20
A recent cEDH tournament featured a finals where Peer Into the Abyss was Deflecting Swatted. Can't do that with an indestructible spell.
1:21:07 I'd also like to point out with route it is still a sorcery on the stack if you pay 2 to play it as an instant. If ever that matters in commander.
i've been focusing on running protection instead of removal, including fogs, and i like it a lot.
i
'm essentially saying go ahead and play whatever you want but it ain't gonna help you if youcan't touch me. i' lose to combat damage 85% of the time, why not address it?
I think Viridian Revel is somewhat meta dependent, mostly by if players in the group have up to date decks. If the boomer has an old deck pre-treasure era it's a lot weaker. But I do think it's very worth testing!
But that Jund deck Tomer pitched for it does actually sound sick
Secret recent tech for me: Serum Sovereign, a poor persons Consecrated Spinx
- Obscuring Haze, love the shout out, I love this card and have had many blow out turns by making it look like I am all tapped out and open to simply Obscuring Haze them and swing on their open board on my turn.
- Constant Mists is amazing in a Korvold land matters deck, buyback basically becomes Sacrifice land put +1/+1 counter on Korvold and Draw a card
- Filter out has been pretty fun in Animar
- Viridian Revel + Descent into Avernus
- I been using Hatred in my Dihada Binder of Wills deck, giving a creature Lifelink, Indestructibe, Vigilance, and surprise my opponent with instant death, gain back all my life= Winning at all costs. Hatred has done some silly things in power matters mana dork (ex: Selvala) decks also, kind of like a Black version of Channel.
- See Double is great, I love instant copy/clone effects, sending some love to Elminsters simulacrum I've had some crazy blow out turns with this card despite costing 6cmc :P
Breach the Multiverse is my ideal follow-up on the turn after I cast The Haunt of Hightower.
I love Haunt of the Hightower so much. I came back to Magic after not playing for over a decade and this was in the current set and I built a Dimir mill deck and I fell back in love with the game and specifically Dimir all over
Stasis Coffin is my secret tech. It you can play it, if necessary activate it as it's not too expensive. But it provides a heavy deterence to being attacked without threatening your opponent's board presence, but still threatening a counter attack if they force an activation.
Mine is Tidal Barracuda. Enables everyone at the table mess around with everybody (flashing blockers and etbs) except against you.
Constant mists is genuinely the reason most of my combat based decks have some form of alternative wincon. I completely agree with Richard that some decks just, cannot beat a constant mists and a crucible of worlds.
Gl playing Constant Mist every turn in 1 v 3..
Board state threats are usually taken into account iv never been 3v1 oned because of a constant mist. Generally you fog the player trying to kill the table then everyone hits the guy that just almost won. Then you redo threat assessment and if your board isn't that scary they will go after the actual threat to them.
@@hansrudolph8343 The point isn't to spam Constant Mists when there are 4 players in the game. In the early, you likely won't cast it often. In the mid game, you deploy Constant Mists when necessary to protect yourself from an alpha strike. In the late game, ideally once the game has reduced to a 1v1, you loop Constant Mists with Crucible, Excavator, or similar cards keeping your land count high. In other words, it is more of a prison-style finisher that can save your hide in the middle of a game if need be than something you try to derp on a full table from the beginning of the game.
Richard really has me rethinking my entire deck building strategy, and I’m here for it.
Dont fall for it.
Constant Mists has saved me more times than any other card and it isn't even remotely close.
Inkshield is a fantastic card in an agro deck. Anything lower to the ground where you want to run out cards on the first 4 turns leaves you not wanting to over extend. From there you can often be playing with 5+ mana up. I play it in Breena with a lot of 1 drops, works like a charm. Bolt Bend being your instant speed, on the stack, interaction is fantastic for Jund decks. It's often hard to find something in those colors that can stop a Counterspell or a Time Warp or a Peer into the Abyss or a Blue Sun's Zennith. Bolt Bend not only stops those from having their expected outcome, it positively interacts with those spells by stealing their effects and all for only one mana.
For personal secret tech cards Tainted Strike, Silence, and Angel's Grace take the cake for me. Tainted Strike can either delete a player, fog a creature, or shrink an indestructible creature. It goes in any deck I can shoe horn it into. Silence and Angel's Grace can often timewalk an opponent or positively interact on the stack with another player trying to combo out which is rare enough for me to warrant an inclusion for most of my decks.
Tomers reversal exists as a 100% version for 4 mana (Wild Ricochet) and let me tell you, 90% of the time i just hold up mana for no reason at all with that spell, and at 3 mana it would be just as bad, except at least being 100% i can use it as a reverberate on a good spell without targets is actually valuable.
Richard and Seth podcast i didnt know i needed it.... But i do.
Inkshield has won me a lot of games. But it's rotted in my hand a few times too. Overall I think it's worth it.
If your playgroup is inundated by Teferi's Protections and Clever Concealments may i suggest Time and Tide to bring those cowards back to face the wrath!
I don’t think that really works since time and tide only phases in creatures no 🤔
@@starmanda88 That's exactly what I use it to do. Make the cowards (creatures) face the wrath. You do know the player doesn't phase out, right?
I think fogs are a compliment to board wipes. Think of pub games, not often at a casual table are people strategically and opportunistically chipping in little bits of damage all the time throughout a game to increase their odds of winning later because that makes early enemies and people dont like that.
What often happens, then, is people build and build and build into these game winning board states, drop a big Craterhoof effect, then kill someone from 40 in one swing. Then if they dont die on the crackback, they win the game. Fog effects swing the balance of those types of games at an incredibly efficient rate, creating an opening for a follow up boardwipe to reset a game. While that doesnt happen all the time, its not something that never happens, and I agree that fogs are super underrated.
Constant Mists can't keep up with 3 possible attackers and 1 land drop per turn.
Regarding the question at the very end: I’m team fog. I don’t use fogs at all really but I don’t use Filter Out either and if I had to choose between preventing all damage or bouncing non-creature permanents, I would prevent the damage. There have been way more situations where I was facing a massive attack for lethal compared to when there was an annoying artifact or enchantment that I wanted gone for just one turn
A personal favorite is Mandate of Peace. My pod has a combat heavy meta and while the bare fog effect is nice there, I also use it to stifle attack triggers, combat tricks, or damage triggers.
Richard: Cyclonic Rift is bad it's just a fog
Also Richard: Fogs are awesome we should play more!
I really enjoyed this video. My only wish was each member would have given each card presented a grade afterwards.
Obscuring Haze isn't just a fog though, it's also a combat trick since it doesn't prevent your own creatures from dealing damage.
Tomer was so frustrating discussing this card. “Sure you can cast this in green but what about this Orzhov or Blue card?”
@@light-chemistry Yeah, I usually agree with Tomer but he missed the mark with this one. I think sometimes they let their own play experiences bias their takes too much. Most play groups have players with big creatures. Getting an opponent to whiff on a big swing can easily knock them out of the game.
The uncommon Anger cycle is from the graveyard-heavy Judgment set. So are Genesis and Glory, but Judgment was also the Green/White set, so those colors got rares that did something similar.
So for anyone wondering about the "Reversal" style cards, think of it this way- in a non-blue deck, these are your counterspells (with extra value). At worst Wyll's Reversal is Negate with +1 cost and extra value. The other two are almost always even better rate Negate. If you're not running blue and you're in red you probably should have 2 to 3 of these effects. The applications for them are virtually limitless.
Vesuvan Duplimancy. With a cantrip in hand that targets your stuff, you can protect yourself and get etb triggers.
Pygmy Kavu has put in work for me, sometimes you get a 4 cmc draw 10+ out of it, sometimes you draw nothing, but it's still a blocker.
I'm playing viridian revel over sylvan library in my cedh deck these days as it consistently draws me 10+ cards a game, and has drawn my entire deck. Busted in a dockside heavy meta. Also kinda nutty with Culling Ritual after everyone ramps with 0/1/2 mana rocks - sweep the board clean, get mana for it and cards to spend the mana on.
Something I believe you guys overlook is that inkshield creates the bodies for any prevented damage to any players. Of course somebody may not attack the player with 5 open mana, but it doesn't have to fog for you, so it can politic and create a deadly board. You were evaluating it as a fog but its really just instant speed token creation. Generally not worth popping off unless your expecting to prevent seven or more damage... 5 mana for 14 power of flyers is good in most formats
Deep Gnome Terramancer worked well for my buddy. We were playing lots of land ramp cards like Three Visits but also the 5 color deck kept triggering from their fetches.
Gotta agree with Richard, constant mists in my lands deck has won me games several times.
In casual people often dont need a fog unless their opp is swinging out for the win. Inkshield not only lets you survive but lets your opponents die and makes you a ton of tokens to swing back for lethal where regular fogs would let all of your opponents survive and beat you next turn. Inkshield isnt a good card but it is a timmy card and in casual formats it is amazing since most people have creature based decks.
Glory might be amazing in my archangel avacyn deck.... great pick Tomer!
Love Seth's face during that Filter Out discussion xD
the wording on Obscuring Haze also stops specific combos where a creature is dealing damage, such as Syr Konrad and Living Death.
Breach also mills and reanimates in the same effect, not two seperate lines. So If a card uses a trigger to shuffle in, like old Eldrazi, it's a valid target to reanimate.
What I like about obscuring haze is it’s an asymmetrical fog. Which I think makes it playable. Especially in battleship commander where people just are constantly populating the board and trying to win through combat damage, I think it gets less good when you enter high power decks with combo finishers. (Powers 7-10) but if you’re playing mid power I see no reason not to play it if you’re in green, especially since a good percentage of the time it’s free. Though my favorite fog is constant mists.
In fact I run a couple fogs in my Savra sacrifice deck, as a way to buy time. So I can establish my recursion loops.
Glory is absolutely amazing! I've never heard of this card so it definitely goes in my avacyn deck! Give everything protection until i can cast avacyn? Yes please. Though how how to get in the graveyard? But it's definitely awesome in any white+X graveyard deck
Next stats episode I'd love to see how much indestructible ACTUALLY shows up
One of the funniest interactions I ever had was when I was facing someone in a pod who had Viridian Revel and I was running a treasure heavy deck. They started laughing when they played it bc they kept drawing when I would crack treasures. And I ended up drawing smothering tithe and played it which made him laugh even more he had said “haha you’re just gonna keep feeding me all this free draw, you’re screwed”. But then when I noticed he was tapped out it clicked lmao. Started cracking my treasures and milled him out on the spot…he didn’t think about that 😂.
The reason fogs are situational is the same reason removal is situational: you don't run enough. If you had 4 fogs in hand, that's 4 attacks you can defend against and likely less than 7 mana total. This could be what you need to get to your next turn. If you remove 1 baddy your opponents have it might not be enough to get to your turn to win the game but if you can prevent 3 combats of your opponents ganging up on you to get back to you, it's over.
Just going to say that you can't kill infernal sovereign at the end of the draw phase (and make your opponent skip their draw without the upside of having the demon) because you skip your draw phase. Either your opponents kill it on your upkeep (at which point you get a draw phase), or you go to your first main with priority.
I'm pro Obscuring haze.
It can be a fog, sure. But on top:
It can be a one-sided combat trick. (your creatures arent affected, and you're in green.)
And it disables so many non-combat damage effects, even combos and loops.
The big upside of this compared to other effects is, that it isn't limited to combat damage.
Oh and on top it can be free.
Not a dead card. Versatile enough. Just don't be too afraid to never use it.
Dress down works really good in Hanna :) recurring it every turn
You guys brought it up real quick, but can get we a stream discussing your picks for budget replacements for expensive cards
It's hard to argue with anything Crim says while he's wearing that Yusuke shirt.
Hey, I run Filter Out in my Chulane deck and let me tell you, it's pretty much a 3 mana Cyclonic Rift. One of the best blue bounce spells ever made.
I run Viridian Revel in my Vazi, Keen Negotiaor deck along with the other cards Crim mentioned.
Filter out is build to bounce stax pieces on the end step before your combo turn. Good bye null rod, rule of law, blood moon, pithing needle, etc, etc…
I love dress down but it always causes so many rule questions lol
I love Fogs. A Fog is one of the only things that can stop an infinite combo without being infinite itself (as long as the infinite combo revolves around infinite combat damage). I have pulled several major hat-tricks to win the game, despite my opponent going infinite, with a Fog. Usually Obscuring Haze
45:51 Did Crim just call a green card sweet? 😂
Speaking of fog effects, one of my fav tech cards in my mono white soldier tribal deck is Frontline Strategist. An old mono white morph that when flipped prevents all combat dmg from non-soldiers. Very niche, kinda/pretty jank, definitely a card that would be cut out, but I love it cause who expects anyone playing a random morph in mono white that is also a fog