Where is the Geographic Center of the Automotive Universe? - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 41
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
- visit: www.issimi.com
Where is the geographic center of gravity of the automobile industry? And what is a geographic center of gravity anyway? In this episode, Jason and Derek discuss the idea that there’s a country at any given time that dominates the automotive industry, either in terms of technical innovation or marketplace impact. Jason suggests that it currently lies in Korea, and explains how Kia and Hyundai are breaking genuine ground, but also argues that there’s a shift happening back to America for the first time in many decades. But not to Detroit.
The pair then explore the ways in which various countries have pushed the envelope of the automotive industry at various times, for example Japan with their sport compacts such as the Honda CRX and Prelude, Acura Integra, Nissan Sentra SE-R, and Nissan Pulsar, as well as the critical decision to design cars specifically for the American market, and build them here too such as the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. They also discuss the various cars which mobilized entire countries including the Ford Model T, Volkswagen Beetle, Fiat 500, Citroen 2CV, and Mini.
As far as America goes, the pair must return to the years before World War 2 to find genuine American technical innovation in the cars themselves, the Duesenberg Model J, for example, but the postwar market segmentation and marketing genius in America also receives honorable mention. Meanwhile, the pair asks whether and when countries like England, France, and Italy ever represented the center of the automotive universe and if so, when? And naturally, with this pair, a discussion of German cars is inevitable as well.
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
ISSIMI is an enthusiast-owned, full-service specialist offering sales, consignment, collection management, service, and consulting to discerning enthusiasts and collectors. Specializing in complex transactions that include international services for exceptional cars, ISSIMI’s San Francisco Bay Area and Europe-based teams of experts pride themselves on transparency and knowledge.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on RUclips alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
There is such thing as a Christmas miracle!
Little later llll
Yes, and his name is Jesus.
This is the best Christmas gift I've gotten this year, slightly topping the new Rubbermaid 1 gallon pitcher I bought myself. :)
Sir Alec Issigonis was Greek not Italian. He was born in Smirni and evacuated to Malta by the Royal Navy in September 1922 ahead of the Great Fire of Smyrni and the Turkish capture of Smyrna at the end of the Greco-Turkish War.
I have a 95 Camry V6 that I drive to work every day. Has 255k on original engine and transmission and I paid $700 for it. I put over 1000 miles on it every month and everything works. Lol.
Can’t beat that
I bought a 1994 Toyota Land Cruiser with 305k miles, that had been left outside and abandoned(hadn't moved in 2-3 years) earlier this year. After reconditioning the battery, I was able to turn it on and drive it 50miles without an issue. Now that I'm rebuilding it, it's been so interesting to rebuild everything as opposed just buying new components.
We bought a '95 V6 Camry for a friend with 180,000 miles on it for a friend who needed help. After replacing the valve cover gaskets, the thing was perfect. Brakes, tires, and exhaust. That's it. I warned her about the timing belt, and she eventually replaced it with a 2012 Civic. She gave the Camry to her daughter, and it's still on the road. It's gotta be pushing 300,000 miles at this point. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that kind of service from a Toyota or Honda. I've also got a 2009 Prius that my kids drive. 243,000 miles. Original hybrid battery pack in it. Lots of my friends said I'd regret getting that car. Aside from the actual driving experience, they were dead wrong.
@@dougrobinson8602 just to prove a Toyota will last forever if you don't beat on it.
‘97 Jetta TDI diesel. 350,000+ miles on the clock when I got it, put 50,000 miles over the first two years I drove it. Was it problem-free? No, but can you say the same for modern vehicles?
You guys just made my drive home from the desert that much more enjoyable. Thank you!
Didn’t get anything for Christmas so this is a treat !
OMG, another Carmudgeon episode. Best present this year :D It's time for a glass of whisky an relax ;)
same scenario over here. carmudgeon with a bourbon in hand on a cold winter night.
Man I’ve been waiting for this to drop forever, oh and by the way Derek, Issigonis was Greek
Peugeot 508 GT Line 2020 v/s Audi A4 Quattro 2020. Which One is better ?
ruclips.net/video/WAXVrDoeZog/видео.html
God I love Carmudgeon, never want it to end. NEVER !
Really love the content these two produce with each other, their synergy is really great. Please continue to get Jason to come on!
I can easily compare this show to a mental auto- exoticism. I have not had this much f...ing pleasure for a long time. You, guys, are the best. Keep it up ........ longer. Thank you from Montevideo, Uruguay, South America, the best place in the world WHERE CARS DON'T DIE.
Finally! I subscribed to Hagerty since the end of the last season of Carmudgeon, waiting for Mr. Shirt to make his appearance. Little did I know he’ll be back here first!
Please don’t stop doing curmudgeon. This is by far the best car podcast nerdout anyone will ever listen to.
These two have great chemistry and present great entertainment! Thank you!
i know im late to the party, but the banter was worth it, i love the historic references and contextual insights.
Overall England may not be the center of the car world it once was, but motorsports wise, it still has a strong place and maybe the strongest. Many racing teams from various categories are based there, most prominently F1 teams.
That Camry is iconic. Had 2 ex-girlfriends and my sister had one of those Camrys. It was the definition of reliable.
Fiat was the center of the world in Europe from the 50s to the 70s I would say. They helped mobilize (is that how you write it?) A big part of Europe with the 500, the 600, the 124, 1430, etc.
Yeah, that's right. All over Europe, Russia too, millions of cars were maid by Fiat, I mean there are even brand of cars witch descent from Fiat, like Seat and Lada, for example.
Europe has been always there, but the wars made every thing go away twice. But now there is Europe as a hole to be considered. I know Americans don't like it very much, but FCA is mostly Italian, and now french too.
Thank God you guys are back. Do not stop making these....please.
Welcome back, gents!
surely, homologation special as a new years special??? either way, love your work Curmudgeons!!! these episodes are amazing
tesla still overvalued though. share prices get way too much talk, when they have no real word relevance to most people, and "investors" don't know who is actually advancing a technology or the lead in one field or another.
Center of the automotive universe is maybe china, germany, california? depends on who you ask, really. Not as many Korean cars being sold in Europe, although i wish they were.
Great content as usual guys!
I would like to add you may have left out the importance of the ford f-150 and the Chinese market is quite dynamic. The 1992 camry was spot on because that's when it became more reliable or super reliable compared to its previous generation camry which struggled with electrical issues.
And maybe suvs could of been expanded on a little. But I do appreciate your great wealth of auto knowledge. And the interesting content. Peace and stay safe.
As a car enthusiast, I never thought I would ever consider a Korean car, but when Genesis became a thing and launched the G70, i was intrigued. I test drove the G70 for replacing my beloved 1 series and loved it. I briefly considered C43amg but a) it wasn't as fun to drive and b) I could not see a case for the $15k premium over the G70 and the interior isn't as good looking as the Genesis (mine has that gorgeous quilted light grey interior).
I do live in dreary old England and gave owned 4 convertibles out of roughly 20 cars owned. Yep, our weather sucks and we like to see the sun when it makes it's rare appearances! I'm over it now but still like a sunroof. Alex, 44.
Big fan of you both by the way.
Ive got 8 minutes left and im already waiting for the next one. Keep it up guys!!
James May has a series called Cars of the People on Amazon prime. Very informative and allied to this discussion.
Still the best show on RUclips. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to the both of you. Looking forwards to seeing what you both get up to next year.
The important Hyundai/Kia of the now is the Palisade and Telluride. Happy to help!
Why this isn't available as podcast? :'(
Cant listen at work while working, still mighty glad it's here! You guys quarreling will do it for me!!
The Koreans arrived in the year of 2010 or 2011 with Kia's first superbowl ad for the Kia Soul. The Kia Soul has been the greatest car value in America for all of the 2010s. For $14,000 you get a massive amount of space, great fuel economy, interesting (although controversial) looks and if you're optimistic you might even blend in with a crowd of suvs. The last part was very important. In the 2010s we see the arrival of a new segment to America: the CUVs. First you have your Juke, Crosstrek and Trax. The Soul lead the way for that I want an SUV but can't afford one segment.
On another note everyone I've talked to with a Hyundai/Kia mentioned technology. It might not seem like it when you review cars for a living but you get more options on the low in a Kia than just about any other reliable car. Savagegeese covers this really well in his Kia Forte review. They give you massive dimensions, great looks, great technology, proper price/financing and it's even plenty reliable. Notice how I didn't mention the way it drives. Glad to hear beerman(sorry) is changing that
Greetings, fellow
Savage Geese fan! I tried to get my kids into a Soul, but they both think they're ugly. I think they're pretty cool looking, and fun. Had one for a rental, and it was a hoot.
You guys are so amazing, this is the best 🥰
i spent the first 30 mins screaming LANCIA, Lancia, LANCIA
As an Englishman I can confirm the term shedload is a recognised unit of weight
Lol
Thank you for the present! And its on my podcast app also! Great;-)
To be honest, that last episode had me depressed for months. Starting to shake it off but hopefully this one makes me stop thinking about it. Not bad just sad.
Yea, I couldnt stop zooming out and thinking about the big picture. And not just cars. TBH it was a good thing.
@@googleleavemynamealone9145 I'm getting my mechanical engineering degree rn but it makes me worry about whether I'll feel fulfilled in an electric car world. I fell in love with the sensory experience of driving and have [yet] to see any glimpse of that being available.
Had me depressed and angry. Jason really pissed me off with his smug, elitist bullshit in that last episdode. And Derek wasn't much better. I had to give that video a thumbs down. I lost a lot of respect for Jason. They should have their enthusiast card revoked over that. And I almost didn't watch this episode because of it.
@@joeleonard9965 Well I think that the most visceral is indeed somewhere back from the 60's to the 90's That was peak automotive. But we have lost alot already. Every car is adding battery tech. And there is no going back to Carberators (yea they do sound the best) But we made up and forward.
If anything you are what we need in all aspects of the future. We are already going back to the analog and there will always be some that like it. Even Tesla will know to get engineers that can blend whats capable, with what we really all kind wish we could have the best of both worlds with.
@@googleleavemynamealone9145 I appreciate the perspective and that's a good point. Hopefully there is a balance to be found where small ICE companies can exist for enthusiasts while having a negligible environmental impact.
Americans did innovate in the 60's with powertrain and drivetrain systems. All cars rusted in the 80s especially Japanese cars. Also domestic v8s made in the 80s were some of the most reliable engines ever made. Sure that LTD may have returned to the earth but, I bet that small block Ford that ran it is still going today.
90s and early 2k Honda/Acura were amazing. Still have my 06 Acura TL 6-spd manual. It has over 300k miles and just normal brakes/battery/tires. Even the alt/starter/AC everything is still original and works as good as new.
Thank you!!
I am glad you both have a huge knowledge and a wide horizon even though you focus on the US market which is not the universe, but at least you look at the technology of the planet... 😊 The Chinese were not mentioned, and they might be repeating what the Japanese and then the Korean did.
The Little Subaru. Wow.
Grateful, but still waiting for our Ferdinand Piech Episode.
Yes more Jason and Derek! :D
That sound at 33:19 scared the fuck out of me, lmao. Very interesting episode as always, keep up the great work.
Issigonis was the Greek god...
Audi still use the "Vorsprung durch Technik" in the UK.
It's also referred to in the Blur song "Parklife" - "It's got nothing to do with your Vorsprung durch Technik, you know". And he pronounces it in almost the exact way that Jason says the British do.
I was expecting the averaging of all car designs yielding whatever the Seat version of a Mazda cx3 is.
I think it would be interesting to talk about how auto manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia have increased their sales by by putting people in new cars that were not able to get financing at dealers from other manufacturers. I saw this a lot around 06-09 when Hyundai couldn’t keep Sonata’s on our local lots. I worked for a company that reconditioned dealer cars so I spent a lot of time reconditioning repossessed Sonata’s and Santa Fe’s.
We are back!
Center of automotive universe was, is and will always be in Stuttgart
regardless of how old you Car-Freaks (I love cars too) get,
you guys have a twinkle in your eyes!
and I like that! we need more people living their lives with what they love and are enthusiastic about! ^^
Hyphen.. omg... this guy sit here and talk on a show with no planning before hand and he ramble up the entire history of the car and every obscure brand ever! Like...
I know most of them, but some of them French ones is just so old even for someone like me that actually appreciates it a similar way to Hyphen here! I'd pay money to have all that gunk in my brain the way he does! Once we have chips in our heads, I'm buying me self a Hypphen-car-pedia?! xD
Love it! Hairy guy, you are okey too! ;) No, seriously, love these shows! Because you guys are just gold when it come to knowlage and trivia around cars! Even if Hairy guyy mostly know about old German shitboxes! ;P hahaha Something that makes me sad is Volvo and Saab are rarely mentioned yet both of them has had a big impact in the industry...! :(
Only time Volvo is mentioned is when someone call them bricks, at best "Fast bricks" if BTCC comes up... Thats why I love mr... whats his face, tame racing driver of Motortrend among other things, he's a true Volvo enthusiast! Even tho he does not seem to be one to collect a ton of cars like these guys! And yes, I know your names I just cant be bothered to type that much! :D Oh, and he seem soo nice and friendly! ..and I loved when he rallied a Cross country on a rally training facility some years ago for a video! :D ...and my comment became a book, it happens all the time! :(
Very happy to hear the mention of the first gen hyundai genesis (sedan)! I came very close to buying one earlier this year and I think it's honestly one of the most underrated depreciated luxury cars. They're probably the best semi-modern luxury car you can buy and maintain for cheap. Had I not found the deal I did on a 2012 A6 3.0T, I would have purchased a Genesis sedan (~2013 3.8L) instead.
Porsche could of had the best slogan to sell targas. “A convertible that you could flip and live.”
The Dodge 600 was definitely available in a convertible by 1984, maybe from launch in 82. The J-body was available in a convertible for 1983 as both the Cavalier and the J2000/Sunbird. I had an 87 Cavalier RS convertible in the 90s for a bit. Growing up in north Florida, there were a lot of 60s convertibles available in the 80s. I spent a lot of time in my best friend's 69 Buick Grand Sport. I'm betting that where you lived as a teenager in the 80s probably had a big influence on your perception of how rare convertibles were.
You'd win that bet. Up north, they are much less common.
Another name I would throw in here is Rimac. That company lends its tech to so many companies, that they are the compass to where this ship goes next.
Greetings from Baku, Azerbaijan
Awesome to see Carmudgeon back.
And dammit Cammisa, how are you filming videos when I can't find shit on the Hagerty channel? Want to link us, or should we just go watch Johnny Lieberman or something?
Honestly I was concerned about the topic (how engaging will it be). But it turned out to be a great discussion!
An interesting fact about the success of the korean makers is that they established design departments in Europe. So I’d say they’re not fully ’Korean’ as such if even the head of exterior design is german..?
25:00 Issimists would probably find Issigonis as Greek by descent.
We have a clan name!!
It’s be a while! Welcome back guys!
God bless us everyone!
Is there any chance Jason could comment more on his experience with Lucid and any knowledge you (both?) may have gathered since? Jason's mention of his (chance?) meeting of the Lucid Team at the track was the first I heard of them and I am highly interested. I have even been wondering if it would be worth considering a deposit on the first batch to come out. I wasn't ever tempted by Tesla and yet I am a little obsessed with Lucid. The cars look amazing! And the first to cure us of range anxiety? Jason seemed excited about his first encounter with them and I'm wondering if he has any more info he could share. Thanks if you can! And cheers from Ontario, Canada... home of Throttle House of course.
Hey, Jason, since your departure to Hagerty, I keep hearing about millions and trillions of videos that you shoot.
Where can these be seen?
Greetings from Romania!
Hagerty RUclips channel starting in January
@@ervin7178 Thanks a million.
I am actually subscribed to Hagerty since I saw Jason moved so, fingers crossed it's not region locked or whatever.
@@Wydarr man everyone loves the Volkswagen Passat 2.0 TDI.
The Christmas present I asked for has been delivered.
You could buy an ordinary Fiat 124 sedan in North America in the late 60s. They're just all gone due to rust now.
clearly you guys have never heard of the “motor valley” and Bugatti was an Italian company based in France...if the state of the art comes from Italy then you can’t dismiss it merely on sales volumes
Merry Xmas Jason and Derek :)
this is so good! I love watching these, why do they get so few views!
The AutoMall was invented in San Francisco. Martin Swig came up with the idea.
That was when San Francisco had a middle class.
Damn Derek! How the hell do you remember all those car history facts and figures??!
Damn hyphen was really nerding out on this one and I loved it
Homologation cars are just amazing and also not talked about the innovation of the Lancia brand
Happy holidays, fellas!
You forgot the 205 GTI from France and the great versions of 306, 405
I think Ford had a plant in Oakland too at one time My grandfather worked there
As an Aussie, you’ve done us proud with the language choice, Jason 👍🏼
No one delivers it like a Pom though
Thank you for doing this!! And please keep it going :-)
If you draw a line from Bay Area to Korea on the map you will realize that Germany is still in the center
Funny Jason I was thinking the same thing the other day that entire class of the fun little cars are pretty much gone just like the little trucks the little Toyota trucks from the 80s Mitsubishi had one Datsun had one ect.
16:05 About small, independent manufacturers one shouldn't miss out the legendary Alldays & Onions!
Smith and Sniff reference?
@@OneFatStatue Spot on! These 2 should find some time together with the other 2, hilarious chemistry guaranteed.
Welcome back! :D
Gentlemen sooo great to see you.
Cadillac was the first with airbags in the 70s but it didn't sell.
When is the podcast going to be posted on Spotify?
I would say France is a bit further back than the '30s. The French pretty much ruled racing from the 1890s to the 1900s. The greatest racing drivers of the time were French and the likes Renault and Peugeot were making some of the greatest racecars of that era. Alfa Romeo started out as a small company that sold imported French cars.
Btw about Miller- Ettore Bugatti bought three of those to reverse engineer them.
French cars were amazing
Perception vs reality. In mere mass of weight, the United States has been the center of the automotive industry for over 100 years; and if you look at the balance of the world, nearly every automotive company had at one time or another tried to crack the US market. With the global economy it's hard to find a car that doesn't have German, Japanese, or American parts.
Pretty cool commercial. That's how we say Subaru in Spain btw
DTS: “Jaguar started racing them (1950s XKs), and killed everyone at Le Mans.... “
Mercedes: ahem.. hold our steins bitte
It was a Jaguar that kinda led to the killing...
My prayers were heard
The Honda Civic!
Tesla's valuation is borderline market manipulation and speculation they shouldn't be worth as much as they are
Also, I wouldn't say the US didn't innovate. If you take a 70 vette on a track against a 70 911 it will be a very tight competition, not to mention making 550 HP NA Aluminum V8's like the ZL1.
1972 Alfetta! Tramsaxle!
And more reliable than the BMW.
Points against the Tesla thing. 1: They are not well built. 2: They are anti consumer. 3: If they could not sell carbon credits they would have lost money every year.
Electric cars are the future but we thrust them into that future ahead of time for political reasons. Battery tech i not yet ready.
Japan was definitely the center of gravity of the car world from the mid 80's to the early 2000's.
The 70's were far worse than the 80's were for design, and i mean for anything design wise, houses, cars, clothing and so on. Drugs were a bit too well used if you get my drift.
Wild that the chevy camaro had Computer controlled Port injection almost 10 years before mercedes had it
Alec Issigonis was of Greek heritage.
Drop tops?
Why you keep not saying Corvette?
$, yeah, but not MB $$$.
Any year without a Vette ragtop...?
Yes. Around '78 or so until the C4. T-tops available, but no fabric top. I'm sure a true Corvette fan could elaborate, but that's about what I recall.
GREAT , engaging, entrtaining, content , gentleman 💥😎💥😎
At 31:38 minutes in ...a few corrections on facts in order
Ferrari won Le Mans , outright from 1960 - 1965 , the last by privately entered NART Ferrari 250 LM with drivers
Jochen Rindt and Masten Gregory
Ferrari continued to enter Le Mans until their final year of 1973 with the 312PB
They chose not to enter Le Mans in 1972 , because they were convinced that the slightly de tuned F1 based boxer 12 , engine, would not survive 24 hours
They did win and dominate every single Sports Car race they entered in 1972
MATRA won and finished 1 st & 2nd , for a hollow victory against less competitive Alfa Romeo , Mirage and Lola teams in 1972
Ferrari and Matra did have some epic battles in 1973 season
Ferrari won a few races , but MATRA WON Le Mans again as well as most of the other races in 1973 , securing the Constructors Championship
Late 1973 , Lica D convinced Enzo that they should withdraw from Sports Car racing , and shift ALL the funding and support into their 1974 F1 program ..
And we know how that turned out ..💥😎🇮🇹
Yess
Jeep CJs were always convertables.