When The Pilots Aren't In Control Anymore | The Crash Of Eastern Air Lines Flight 304
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- Опубликовано: 25 сен 2020
- RyanBomar: / ryanbomar
DC8 Image: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Us...
Alaska Airlines JackScrew Animation: FAA Lessons Learned
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This is the story of eastern airlines flight 304, It was 1964 the 25th of february to be exact and an eastern airlines DC-8 had a busy day ahead of it. The flight was to start in mexico city it would then make its way to new orleans, atlanta washington and then finally its destination new york city. The plane arrived at mexico city at 10:12 pm the previous day, the crew that flew the plane in noted that the plane's pitch trim compensator was inoperative. The pitch trim compensator or the PTC applied nose up controls through the elevator system. The whole system consisted of electrical actuators spring loaded linkages and a computer. The DC 8 needed the PTC to improve the handling of the DC-8 at low altitude high speed regimes of flight. The PTC is used to prevent the plane from nosing down at high mach numbers. The PTC at least on the DC-8 was directly connected to the control columns and so at low at takeoff and landing the PTC system is not used. The inoperative PTC system was to be fixed at kennedy international airport.
With all this in mind an IFR was filed and theyd be cruising at a lower speed than usual. The plane made it to new orleans at 12:51 am on the 25th of february. With customs and everything taken care of, the plane departed New Orleans at 1:59 am. As the plane climbed into the rainy cloudy night the controller handed the plane off to departure control. The departure controller asked the crew to fly 030 degrees, the controller at this time was in contact with new orleans air route traffic control center or ARTCC, new orleans artcc had flight 304 on its scopes and the plane was successfully handed off 2:02 am A transmission went out to flight 304 “Contact new orleans center radar, frequency 123.6, now” “ok” came the reply. Minutes passed, the plane should have checked in with new orleans center by now, but no it hadn't. The center controller contacted the departure controller to see if the departure controller gave the crew the correct frequencies, as they talked they both looked at their radar scopes neither of them could find flight 304 on it. The radar contact of eastern airlines flight 304 was no where to be seen. Emergency protocols were initiated and they began a search from the last known point of the plane, A helicopter combing the search area saw an oil slick in Lake Pontchartrain, floating debris confirmed it they found the wreck of flight 304 8 miles from the new orleans VORTAC, none of the 58 people on the plane made it.
The plane had impacted the lake and a massive operation to raise the wreckage was started immediately. A lot of the bits and pieces of the airplane was separated out from the sand and silt of the lake bed, washed and then sent to a hangar for storage, they also recovered major parts of the airplane like the engines. The engines were damaged, they showed signs of a high speed impact with the water but no pre impact damage, the fuel system was also in working order.
But the investigators were facing an uphil task, a lot of the plane was still in the lake and they didnt have the CVR, which was a big blow to the investigators, so for this investigation theyd have to extrapolate what happened to the plane from data that they had for other DC8s. They got into a dc8 simulator and then performed a number of take offs under the conditions of the 25th of february and they cross checked this data with the data from actual dc8 take offs, without the data from the flight recorders this was their best hope of filling in the blanks when it came to the last few moments of flight 304. 
Наука
TO ALL THOSE THAT COME HERE TO COMPLAIN.
THIS MAN DOES A GREAT JOB OF BRINGING YOU NARRATIVE. I FONT KNOW IF HE WRITES HIS OWN BUT I THINK ITS GREAT.
HE STATES HE USES VIDEO SUPPLIED. IF YOURE SO WORRIED ABOUT HIM HAVING RIGHT VIDEO THEN HELP HIM OUT.
IM SICK OF FOLK THAT TRY TO FIND SOMETHING WRONG.
Thanks for the kind words Ronnie! But look at it this way. People complaining is actually good. Sometimes their complaints are valid. Earlier on I used to use stock aviation footage and after changing that my channel grew a lot. People complained about the audio quality so I got a new mic and audience retention improved.
I don’t see people complaining as a nuisance I see it as an opportunity to make a part of my videos better :)
Also people complaining is good for the algorithm ;)
Peace out
They are called haters
The cleverness of investigations done without access to the black boxes always astounds me. The East coast Jets 81 crash from 2008 only had a cockpit voice recorder, no flight data recorder, and so the investigation had to focus entirely on analyzing the wreckage, eyewitnesses and the recording. The recording is available on RUclips, it's horrible to listen to though. I think it would make for an interesting video regardless. It's basically a lesson about how fatigue alone can bring down a perfectly good plane.
Sad. Tired crews make mistakes. Amazing that the Hawker 800 is a derivative of the DH125, first delivered to a customer in 1964 !
My grandparents, mom and newborn uncle were supposed to be on that flight... they had made the trip to N.O. from Slidell. On the way they got a flat. Because of the rain it took my grandpa a long time to get help.
Weird how life is like that sometimes...
Eastern Airlines was my favorite airline as a child because it always brought my wonderful grandparents down from NY for the holidays for a 3 month stay and I always looked forward to it.
My grandparents would always get the plastic Easter airlines pin typically given to children who flew the airlines and to be worn on the shirt. Eastern Airlines brings back so many wonderful memories for me.
Eastern Airlines was a mess. There was a conspiracy with a crash in jan of 1985 (eastern air Flight 980) where it went down in the mountains of Bolivia. The GOVT said the site was inaccessible and there would be no way to reach it. BUT 3 men were able to walk up to the site at 19,600 ft. They said there were no bodies or Blood and the FDR and CVR were nowhere to be found. They noted that there were a large amount (over $1million) in poached reptile skins in the cargo. THEN 7 months later In August 1985, the Federal Aviation Administration fined Eastern nearly $1.4 million after more than 1,700 pounds of cocaine valued at $430 million was found aboard two jets flying into Miami from Colombia. Baggage handlers in Colombia put cocaine-filled suitcases in bags on jetliners bound for Miami and the luggage was unloaded after passenger bags were removed. The nation’s largest cocaine-trafficking pipeline has been cut with the indictment of 23 airline employees. $1 billion in Colombian cocaine is believed to have moved through Miami International Airport during the past four years with the help of 22 Eastern Airlines employees and one Mexicana Airlines worker.
@@scottcol23
That airline was flying high.
You get better and better with both your research and your delivery. Keep on bringing us information about these lesser known accidents.
Enjoyed see all the Eastern Airxraft, I was an A&P Mechanic, Foreman and Manager with EAL for 10 years.
What would REALLY help the channel grow is more visual content that matches up with the audio investigation.
Yeah. I kinda missed most of the narrative while watching the video of different airplanes and airports. It was sort of like being on hold on the phone - with the elevator music in the background - while you're carrying on a conversation with someone in the room. I wouldn't have been able to tell you what music was playing...
It's best to just listen to the video in the background while doing something else. Would be cool to see him reenact the crashes in a flight sim
no silly flight sim recreations please
@@Diego-th1il Flight sim recreations would actually give a better visual for the crashes. If you've never watched a video like that you should
@@BlueOvals24 These reports are basically audio presentations, usually with very little relevant video.
Thank you for researching this. Rather ironically, this is one of the few major air crashes of which I was not aware. At the date of its occurrence I was in my first few days of the training that would eventually lead to my career as an aircraft mechanic. Not only was I busy with my studies, there was no television available in the dorm where I stayed, so I did not hear of the accident. The DC-8 is one airplane with which I had zero experience in the following years, but I have seen a similar problem on the early 737 airplanes that did not lead to such serious consequences. Once again it was a pitch trim problem. On the 737, a mach trim actuator was installed to follow commands from a mach trim computer and change the relationship between the elevator position and the horizontal stabilizer at high speeds. If this actuator failed in the high speed position, either the autopilot or flight crew would trim the horizontal stabilizer for pitch control as the airplane slowed down. No problem so far. But upon landing, as the pilot pulled the column back to flare the airplane for touchdown, the mis-trimmed stabilizer would limit the force the elevator could exert to raise the nose, and it became a near thing to get the airplane on the ground safely. No accidents resulted, but there were some unsettling moments before the problem was resolved.
I worked as a marine electrician during the early 1980's. I spent some time working on the shell-dredges that harvested the small, white shells from the bottom of Lake Ponchatrain. These shells were quite popular for driveways all throughout the south. A dredge arm dug out the bottom of the lake, washed the silt out of them on a big wash-board type of equipment with lake water, and conveyed the washed shells to a barge tied alongside of the dredge.
Lake Ponchatrain is near the New Orleans airport (now called Louis Armstrong Airport), and the military used to launch many, many training flights over the lake. General aviation also flew over the lake with private airplanes. They still do.
The dredge would often dredge right through the wreckage of crashed airplanes as it dug out the shells. The remains of some of these aircraft would slide up the angled dredge-head, fall off as they breached the surface, then disappear again into the murky lake-water. I asked the Captain if they ever reported it, and he said, "Nobody wants to know about it". They probably dredged right though the remains of flight 304, more than likely several times.
The dredges no longer operate in this lake, and the water has returned to a more natural state that supports a healthy water environment.
Sifting through the remains of the dead to collect shells for driveways... And nobody wants to know about it. Terrifying story, man.
Maybe the dredging company and the one who contracted them didn't want the hassle of halting for a long indefinite time... I know here on island, if construction finds bones or a burial ground, they must stop and advise the appropriate gov't dept. Then, they have to wait for the archeological team to painstakingly dig out the remains and ensure no other historical remnants in that vicinity. It can take months. With construction deadlines, it will cost everyone involved loss of money.
My mom missed this flight. She hated flying forever after.
I met a lady who ended up flying on a Delta flight instead and her family didn't know she had switched flights, they thought she perished in the crash.
goodness ... don't blame her
Hey - if you want, I can try and help you make graphics for flight paths :) I wouldn't ask for anything in return; this sort of stuff is interesting to me and I'd like to help you out.
"It was a dark rainy night when the weary pilot of the DC-8 took the controls for the last time."
A bushing can be stainless steel, aluminum, or hard plastic. To have a bad mount on any control surfaces on an aircraft, it would be like having a steering rack on a car with loose bolts. The autopilot would command control surfaces, when the mounts move around, the surfaces don't respond properly, that would disable autopilot. You're right, it's a little the messed up mount, a little on the turbulence.
Excellent explanation, I am not involved in aircraft engineering but mechanical work and many times I come across bronze bushes and also thrust washers of similar material.
I know it's an old thread, BUT bushings can be found all over the place. For those who have never seen them before, maybe I can help...
The very simplest of them are basically a combination spacer/stabilizer-sleeve. They can be cup-shaped or more like a top-hat, and can be made of just about anything. The choice of material depends mostly on the relative purpose and levels of abuse they're supposed to endure for the life of a given machine or appliance.
I frequently rebuild and restore equipment and tools, so I run into them most often around the shafts of electric motors and in gear-boxes to align the moving parts. Angle grinders while have them to hold the drive-gears together, a cupped bushing in the "head" for the receiving gear, and the top-hat "sleeve" for the shaft of the motor to align the pinion/driving gear so the teeth perfectly mesh with the other... In a blender, there's a sleeve-type (frequently top-hat shaped) right above the motor to align the shaft that drives the blades around in the bottom of the pitcher... AND of course, fans will have the sleeve between the motor and the blades, and some have a cup at the back-side of the motor to keep the shaft straight and quieter within the housing.
On heavier machines like motorcycles, bearings are frequently employed to smooth out and reduce friction around the axles, while the bushings are more of a "sacrificial" role made of bras, aluminum, or bronze so they get worn down to protect the frame and the housing of the bearing race. It's a REALLY useful little piece for a lot of different but very similar applications. Most of the time, however, they make a rebuild cheaper because it's easier to afford replacing a little sleeve or cup of copper/brass/bronze/aluminum/plastic/etc... than it would be to weld in a build up of metal housing and then re-tool the shape of the bearing(s) or the shaft that carries torque through the opening... ;o)
WELL DONE YOUNG MAN.
I WOULDN'T MIND SEEING YOUR TAKE ON THE FLIGHTS THAT TV COVERED.
I LIKE THE FACT THAT I DON'T HAVE TO WATCH SCREEN. LISTEN TO YOUR STUFF OVER AND OVER.
I like that you said “footage” instead of “videos” at the end. At least to my ears, it flows much more nicely. Keep up the good work, you’re constantly improving!
It's funny you say that because it also always bothered me when he used to say "thanks for letting me use his video in my video" and I always said why can't he say "thanks for letting me use his footage in my video". It always bothered me but I didn't want to say anything but it looks like someone finally told him or he realized himself that it doesn't sound right.
@@AviationNut footage is entirely an abstract concept now that physical film is so seldom used. one might as well call it "secondage."
Good thing McD went out of the commercial airliner business. Oh, wait! In 1997 they took over Boeing and the head of McD publicly stated he would transform Boeing from a great engineering company into a great financial company. Well, thank goodness that never came about... >.>
Isn't that what Jack Welch did to general electric and look at the company now! Not so good!
MacDonell Duglass was bought out by Boing not the other way around I worked at duglas
737 MAX "Am I a joke to you"?
McD was taken over by Boeing -- even worse McD management took over at Boeing. From making airplanes that may be just a little bit over-engineered, they went into production of airplanes where the bottom line mattered the most. Sad.
@@craigdavis7361 joke is that McDonell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing’s own money. Mainly because they took over the management and completely changed the priorities of the company
Wow , so they don’t blame the pilots this time ! About time
The missing bushing saved them.
Didn't American Airlines ever do PMs and inspections of the planes?
It seems to me that a routine check would have found the missing bushing.
The automatic Pitch Control problem should have been looked into immediately.
It proves that air crashes are a string of events that combine to make these things happen.
@@tonyperone3242 Of course they do inspections on the aircraft. There are multiple inspections done on aircraft, starting with simple thru flight inspection all way up to phase and depot inspections. You can inspect every last hydraulic or electrical driven actuator on the aircraft and never know that a bushing is incorrectly installed. For components that effect safety of flight, there are often what is called an in process inspection (IPI) required when installing such a component. This is required because once the installation is complete, it is impossible to tell if the critical portion of the installation was done correctly. As far as items that may fail from wear or corrosion, those are always on a time change or time inspection schedule.
Great video! I came across your channel barely a week ago and I have binge-watched most of it already, lol 😅
Would you consider making a video about Spanair 5022? I don't know if the case itself is that interesting, but as a young Spaniard it's definitely the one that I remember the most and I'm curious about the details! (I was actually on vacation with my family in the Canary Islands at the time and we had to take the flight back a few days later... my parents weren't very excited about that)
Great suggestion!
@@MiniAirCrashInvestigation yay! 😊
@@jimenusky
I love this channel! Tons of great videos and while I've binged it seems there are loads left...this makes me happy!
thanks for what you do man, i can really tell the channel is picking up some well deserved steam. i'd love to hear your breakdown on some other crashes too, military/GA, etc.
This channel is great!! I can't stop watching your videos. Keep that
Eastern L 1011 was my first jet ride.
Toronto- Buffalo Atlanta finally Tampa Bay.
Your read of this incident is great.
Including all the “what ifs”.
When they discovered the issue with the trim, the plane should have been grounded immediatly until the system could be repaired. But, no, they had to get four more hops out of it first. I hope the regulators came down hard on the airline for this one.
Unlikely. How thorough was the certification process for that other Death Plane, the infamous DC10?
Surfer Dude Eastern Airlines went bankrupt and no longer exists.
People should go to jail for neglect of this magnitude. For some reason, we don't prefer criminal charges on sloppy managers in the US.
They did not ground the airplane - manly because the people in charge of deciding on grounding had much more knowledge of aircraft systems and engineering than Surfer Dude. The PTC system of the DC-8 can not be compared with the MCAS of the Boeing 737MAX. It was a well designed system that was active only in high speed cruise flight. It also had nothing to do with the main pitch trim system (Stabilizer Trim via jackscrew) This DC-8 did NOT crash due to a bad design of a system. It crashed due to a mechanical problem in the jacksrew system which was caused by a previous maintenance error.
Not hard enough - the Flight 401 crash was ridiculously avoidable, and the airline managed to operate until January 1991 due to their owner's sketchy af management.
a rubber bushing is more for reducing vibrations for exsample in car engines it will dampen the vibration it also can reduce wear caused by vibrations as it dampens it.
Where as a bushing for rotation is used in applications where bearings may be used and is basically just a hole (like a door hinge)
What kind of plane is that at the end of the video? The one with the white cross in a black circle.
The plane you are talking about is a DC-8. It's a later, stretched version so it looks much longer than you would be used to. I believe it was called the Super 61.
DC8-61 freighter conversion.
Great analysis!
Hippity hoppity the controls are now dc-8's property
Good video, enjoyed!👍🙂
Thanks Ian!
Like the Mic. Excellent.
I really enjoy your channel, thank you for all the research you do for your vids.
1 comment 1 suggestion.
C: I listen to your vids when I walk my dogs, every day for hours I like your work because I dont need to be staring at the phone to see the vids because your descriptions are that clear.
S: There are times when a pic would be helpful even if I have to trip over a rock to see it. The screwjack in a recent vid for example, that really helped.
So ya, I like that the vids dont need to be watched but I would love to see more visual examples!
:)
Is it my imagination, or is this a little like the issues with MCAS - the plane was essentially set to crash itself, and the pilots didn’t know what to do?
This was due to malfunctioning part tho in just this plane, vs MCAS which was doing exactly what it was supposed to do (unless you want to account for the bad sensor in the MCAS accidents).
I thought that, too.
Having a single channel AOA sensor drive the MCAS instead of a triplicated voting logic, was just bad engineering. But this situation completely different, with mechanical and human maintenance failures. Failures of the jack screw have caused other accidents as well.
@@mrubin3770 Hope someone started checking mechanics' work on items like this. If you can install a jack screw bushing on upside-down, we should assume that at least one in one-hundred mechanics will make this mistake due to either fatigue, poor lighting, etc.
Each video is better than the last. I'm really happy to see this channel growing and improving
Most of images are a L1011, not a DC8.
M Rubin You're absolutely right.
Yeah, I thought he was supposed to be working on this.
It was very confusing hearing about a DC8 while looking at a Tristar and a DC9.
It looked like they were showing a DC-10 multiple times in this video. (single engines/wings, and the tail section engine)
HE STATES HE USES IMAGES SUPPLIED BY FRIEND.
BE HERE FOR THE STORY NOT TO COMPLAIN.
Awesome videos, keep up the good work!!
I have been at the controls of a DC-8. It was a charter flight and I was signed up for ground school. I was amazed at how light and sensitive the yoke was. I could feel the minor muscle tremors in my arms in the movement of the aircraft. It took about a second for an unintentional twitch to show up as a slight roll or pitch change, and those movements were on the order of a mm or so.
Try it in manual reversion...
@@davef.2329 Without the hydraulics?
@@johncantwell8216 Yup, no aileron/rudder hyd's. Used to do that trng in the sim and in the plane on maint. functional test flts. Put the gear down to help with the roll (flt. spoilers powered by separate hyd. syst. when the gear is down). Can be described like "driving a moving van with no power steering." Plan ahead, far ahead...
@@davef.2329 Is the yaw damper operational without hydraulics on the rudder?
@@johncantwell8216 With NO hyd's, or rudder power lever shut off, no. DC-8 had a standby rudder power syst. that in the loss of main hyd's syst. could keep the rudder powered as long as there was no leakage in the final plumbing or the rudder actuating system. The series yaw damp ran thru the rudder power control valve, so in answer to the question, no, not without applied RUDDER hyd. pressure. Been a long time (decades ago) but, that's my memory of it. DC-8 went thru some changes early in its life due to some accidents/incidents and the standby rudder power sub-system was one result of those early changes.
I've watched many of these crash videos online recently... After extensive research I've concluded that these DC planes were rubbish.
not sure why i like these videos so much, but they're so entertaining! great job man👍
Great Video, appreciate the extra research, great deduction.
Great video mate!
Hi buddy at mini air crash , I hope tonight is the night a new video coms out I think it’s 4 days since your last video , I absolutely love listening to your videos , Andrew from Sydney , it’s 10:05 pm (22:05 ) here in Sydney Wednesday night
One more day mate. It’s uploading as we speak right now
The natural reaction of a pilot with the airplane pitching down and the airspeed increasing is to pull the power off and pull back on the elevator. There was a case where EAL had an airplane pitching down, over speeding and the pilot did the opposite. He pushed the power up, and recovered. In any airplane without fly by wire and engines mounted under the wing if you add power the airplane will pitch up and probably the only way to recover from a high speed nose down incident.
I enjoy hearing your narration. I can listen like it's a podcast.
I Love these Vids you definitely need to make more with Military
Like the
Ramstein Air disaster
Seville A400 Crash
Really good vid-i had never heard of this incident
The DC-8 was a brilliant airplane in many ways, but woefully under-engineered in many others. Unlike Boeing which waited to start full production until after the prototype “dash 80” was tortured every conceivable way during certification and pre-production testing, Douglas didn’t have the luxury of time. They were so convinced jets weren’t really viable and that the new piston powered DC-7 was the next big thing, they futzed around until they were two full years behind Boeing in the development process for their first jet. As a result Douglas decided not to build a bespoke prototype for testing and instead would use the first production aircraft to come off the line for type certification and “real world” torture testing. That means an awful lot of problems (some known, others yet undiscovered) were neither revealed during the abbreviated testing nor fixed on the subsequent aircraft already in production. Douglas took a huge gamble delivering aircraft that still had a lot of secrets yet to be revealed. This particular vulnerability is one of many unwelcome surprises that the DC-8 would spring on unsuspecting pilots during those first few years.
A bushing is really just what you described. It's a chunk of rubber or polyurethane (a very soft plastic) which separates metal or load bearing components that have to move. The suspension components in your car use a load of bushings to this effect. An example would be a stabilizer bar (aka anti-roll bar) link pin, which is basically a metal linkage with nuts at both ends that connect to stuff. You'd have the nut holding the bar there, a washer for the bushing to seat against, the bushing, the metal component the link pin attaches to, and another bushing with a welded washer in place. I hope this makes even a lick of sense. Bushings are usually incorporated into designs where metal parts meet, but have to move. The bushing allows those metal components to move around relative to each other, without wearing out those metal parts. If you install bushings upside down, it absolutely will chew the bushing out because the metal fixing basically eats it alive. Again, hope it makes sense.
Thanks this really does clear things up !!
Don't forget though bushings can be anything from a rubber with a low shore rating to brass to stainless steel.
I love your vids a lot
You're narration is awesome ... love it
Rubber bushings absorb vibration and compensate for kinematic misalignment. Automotive engine mounts are examples of high performance rubber bushings. They are very useful.
Dc-8’s look so sleek!
Kudoes to you for your extensive research. Well done!
Wow
A bushing is a piece of rubber or plastic intended to support a component, isolate it from vibrations and in some cases allow it to move or rotate freely without excessive wear
3:15 why am I watching an L1011 taxi in a story about a DC-8 crash?
PTC is the word of that faithful day...........
Thank you for sharing
Well done MACI.
Thanks for shedding light on a lesser known crash. It is very interesting at this time due to the similarities to the 737 Max and MCAS crashes. Air transport safely is the most important factor that a manufacturer must consider when designing and manufacturing aircraft. The human factor makes this tricky but the more pilots are told about how their plane flies and responds due to the airframe itself and the various flight control systems the safer flying can be because of pilots not being surprised by what the plane is doing. I have not been able to find out how much Douglas knew about this issue so it is hard to make a good judgment on how responsible the company was but the similarities to the Max are striking.
Yeah i love doing videos on lesser known crashes, Its good to make sure that this incident isnt forgotten to the pages of history
Never force or rush controls have patience. Let it respond or not.
What's up with the L1011?
The PTC can't be found in the debree field. Ok people it is still there. Let's go get it.
DC-8? Sweet!!
At that time there was no Motion aural warning for the Stabilizer, it was added later, a Clacker sound.
Thank you, I remember that crash being reported. Now you have shown just what a battle the air-crew experienced in the last few minutes of flight . Jack-screws control malfunctions? They have infamously downed many aircraft of that era.
Regarding the bushing upside down in the stabilizer jackscrew unit, how is that possible normally the bushing will have a case or cover to keep it in place, if the the screw only can travel one way then the bushing also has groves to keep it from moving, if the bushing travel with the screw up and down then the bushing will have lips on both side then there is no such a thing is upside down. Thank you and love your channel
A DC-8 you say?
Beautiful DC8 though, at least they went in style
Good Presentation! What kind of aircraft is the large white 4-engine one? The last one on the video? She’s a beaut!
It’s a DC-8-62 series.
Ah, MCAS incident mk 1
How deep is that lake? Surely there was suitable salvage equipment available at the time to recover more parts if the wreck?
It’s only 65 feet max... average of 12 feet... would think could have recovered wreckage fairly easily even if bottom is very sandy
Money money money. Not worth it then, even less now. Sad to say.
So sad that the fuselage is still at the bottom of the lake.
5:15 FO testified regarding a previous DC-8 flight's dive that using reverse thrust provided "a nose-up moment". The engines are beneath the vertical center of gravity. Drag force down there would cause a nose-down rather than nose-up moment.
Marc McReynolds hello it’s odd you mention ‘thrust REVERSERS’ in flight , on the BC8, the THRUST REVERSER LEVER IS VERY CLOSE TO LANDING GEAR LEVER , I believe it may have been in 70s/80s AIR CANADA was to land at LESTER PEARSON , TORONTO so while getting ready in the patern, they DEPLOYED THRUST REVERS so it JUST FELL OUT OF THE SKY, , I believe the fix Was to PAINT THE LEVERS DIFFERENT COLOURS Cheers 🇨🇦🇺🇸
@@flybyairplane3528 That sounds a lot like Air Canada 621, where the spoilers of the DC-8 deployed at sixty feet on approach (deviation from approved procedure regarding spoiler arming had the pilots miscommunicating). The aircraft touched down hard enough to cause wing/engine damage, then during the ensuing go-around (bad decision #2) a series of fires and deflagrations destroyed one of the wings before they could return to the airport.
@@marcmcreynolds2827: The FO extended the spoilers.
@@markprange4386 Thank you for clarifying my vague statement "the spoilers of the DC-8 deployed". In deviating from procedure, a callout at 60 feet to arm the spoilers was taken by the FO as a command to deploy them. I can only imagine that the FO's mind was momentarily elsewhere at that critical moment, since deploying spoilers at that altitude would make no sense whether commanded or not.
> I believe the fix Was to PAINT THE LEVERS DIFFERENT COLOURS < There's a quasi-joke in the airframe business that if you can't fix the problem, "placard it" (the equivalent joke in the railroad industry is that if a part breaks, "double the dimensions and paint it black").
Hi, can you mention the plane name in the title of the video. Example in the above: DC8
please do 1996 Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision next
Hey, would you like to add some simulated footage of the planes according to their flight paths? It's possible to do this in an semi-automatic way I think!
I dunno..do i upvote since I liked the video. Or maybe I'll downvote because people died. These decisions in life are sometimes so difficult. I'll have to ponder this one for a few minutes longer. For now, I'll do nothing. That seems safe
I would like to know more about why the dc-8 could not be raised from the bottom of the lake.
also, if there was s problem and the airline knew about it, why wasn't the dc-8 taken out of service and allowed to fly with passengers?
They were going to fix it in Nee York....but that was too late and they ran into severe turbulence that made things worse.
If an airliner has anything wrong with it, it should be taken out of service and repaired correctly....money should never be placed over human lives
You’re very good at headlining or titling your videos.
So many warnings ignored.
Well researched !
Really...the fucker mistook an L-1011 for a DC-8...real fucking pro.
So was this a manufacturing error? Or poor maintenance on the part of Eastern?
PTC or Mcas?
Nice vid
Your content is great, but as always, your voice sounds “wet” to me and doesn’t produce good audio. Keep working on it. Good effort.
Do vids on the MCAS failures of the 737-MAX crashes, Ethiopian 302 and Lion Air 610
Why didn’t they recover the flight recorders
Too damaged to use
DC8 or Tristar?
0:50 "The PTC is used to prevent the plane from nosing down at high mach numbers" So...um...when did the DC 8 become an SST?
LOOK MUMMY THERES AN AEROPLANE UP IN THE SKY !
Most of your pics are an L-1011, not a DC-8.
Oh, just got like number 777 ... do I get a free Boeing now? (Pwetty pwease wiv sugar on top!)
"High mach numbers"? I doubt if any DC-8 has ever flown faster that Mach 0.6
No! A DC-8 broke the sound barrier!!
Absence of evidence is not evidence. Considering how many airline accidents have been caused by poor maintenance of the jackscrews that control the tailplanes of jet aircraft, that is the far more likely cause. A broken jackscrew, or even a lot of slop would have caused the tailplane to be subject to the forces of the prevailing winds. Corrective command inputs would change aircraft angle of attack to a point where the tailplane would suddenly move to opposite trim. So just as the pilots regained the correct AoA in one direction, the aerodynamic forces would push the tailplane over into the opposite direction of trim.
The PTC system was only for use at high Mach numbers, and there's no evidence that it was engaged or operative at only 220 kts. Just like yaw dampers, I wouldn't expect a pilot in command who had experienced the anomaly before, and had had ample time to review and plan future corrective actions to accidentally miss the same checklist item again, or not remember it in time to take corrective action _if it was actually doing something._ As it stands, there's no evidence that the PTC _was_ doing anything abnormal, but ample evidence of mechanical issues with the jackscrew assembly, namely unusual wear patterns consistent with oscillation, and the absence of the part that would have held the tailplane in place.
Back when this happened, aircraft were still mostly mechanical systems. Airline pilots, most of whom were war veterans with no experience in "computers" and no engineering training would have mistrusted what they didn't know. That's human nature, but not the basis of fact. Blaming an unknown and unlikely cause is irrational when there's evidence for a more straightforward cause.
There's also the application of thrust reversers in flight, another known cause of airliners crashing. This alone could have been the cause of the crash. It could also have been a contributing factor. But it can't be called an authorized recovery procedure because it isn't. In the '60s a lot of "fly by the seat of your pants" pilots experimented with then-new aircraft systems, and several incidents and even crashes resulted. One experiment in particular, extending the leading edge flaps of the B727 by disabling power to the trailing edge flaps and then commanding flaps down while at cruise at high Mach numbers caused at least two terrifying incidents, with the planes tumbling out of control for tens of thousands of feet. Fortunately the upset conditions were recovered from before it was too late, but just. We must consider that the unorthodox use of thrust reversers was an experimental and unapproved procedure that only made things worse.
Stringer - I get it... in other words, the Wright brothers might need some training to fly a DC-8?
@@gilbertfranklin1537 Considering the DC-8 had a crew of 3, yes.
In-flt. thrust reverse (inboards) was actually an authorized procedure for use during an emergency descent on the DC-8. A somewhat dramatic event, and often caused airframe issues afterward.
@@davef.2811 Authorized by Eastern? I was a passenger on quite a few DC-8 aircraft in the '60s, '70s and even into the '80s and I can't recall a time when reverse thrust was ever used in flight. I was the kind of passenger who asked to be seated behind the wings, so I could watch the flight surfaces in action, and see the thrust reverser "buckets" deploy.
Apparently this was a facility on the DC-8, only on the inboard engines, and from what I read was necessary to maintain an emergency descent from jet altitudes down to 10,000 feet. So that checks out, just not for the altitude that the crash plane had reached. About the only thing I found about using this technique at low altitudes was that it causes crashes. The use of thrust reversers "contrary to published procedures" to try to make a high approach was blamed for the crash of Alitalia flight 628 at JFK in 1969.
DC-8 is an old jet, it hitting MACH 1 would be disastrous, it would never survive to get anywhere near 'high mach'.
I'd need to see the 'prints, but support bushings are typically exactly that, a bushing of sacrificial material designed to keep a rotating part in alignment. If it was installed upside down, then it is possible that sufficient throw on the jackscrew was able to knock it out of place.
I don't think 'sacrificial' is an applicable term for such a component.
Are you aware that the DC8 was the first airliner to break the sound barrier? Google supersonic DC8 and see that your comment is misinformed.
@@aeomaster32
It couldn't 'fly' at over Mach 1 though. The example you mention was a risky one off and was achieved by a sharp dive from 52,000 feet (a very impressive feat in its self). It exceeded the speed of sound for 16 seconds at 1% over.
While a DC-8 did achieve this the top speed was 'only' a still very impressive near 590mph but significantly short of Mach 1 without inducing it artificially.
Sadly, it was scrapped after two decades of service (so I read) and personally I think it should have been preserved. A great shame.
Do you think that the data flight recorder could still be found? Or would it be messed up from the water after all these years?
4 engines?
Everytime he says PTC, you drink a shot! As I type this he's said PTC 4 more times...smh you'd be hammered by the end of the video. PTC!
Man, how many DCs had issues? Like the DC-10 and their cargo doors...smh
The DC-10 cargo door was a design flaw; the part failure in the case of this crash was due to improper maintenance.
Your channel has come a long way in a year. Here you are telling us about some DC-8 while your footage clearly shows a Lockheed L-1011 Tristar....
maybe there wasn't eough footage available of Eastern DC-8s...
Why wernt DC-8's in the video?
7:14 Southwest 737 landing in the back ground
Would you do Cactus 1549?