Catastrophic Loss of Control (Trans International Airlines Flight 863) - DISASTER BREAKDOWN
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2022
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The pilots of a Douglas DC8 lost control of their plane immediately after take-off from New York. The resulting devastation on that September day in 1970 killed all on board the plane. The answers to questions surrounding what happened can be found leading up to and during the take-off phase. Up till that point the pilots had taxied out to the runway without suspecting anything was wrong with their plane. Little did they know that danger lurked where they couldn’t see it. It was only when the plane was accelerating down the runway that things started to go wrong very quickly. So lets explore the background of this flight and examine the details of this take-off process. Lets dive deeper into Trans International Airlines Flight 863.
Sources:
www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...
www.fss.aero/accident-reports...
code7700.com/case_study_trans_...
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
Personal Twitter: twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCB
Gosh, I feel that's unfair on the pilots. It was largely out off their hands 🤷♂️
What are the titles of the first and last soundtracks used in this video,
m8 use microsoft flight sim, better quality, worth the purchase
The airplane shown for most of the video is a DC8-61, not the DC8-63 involved in the accident. The crew had only 7 Flight Attendants. The fourth male name was the Navigator.
I agree with the ruling. The pilots should have walked around the entire runway with a broom and made sure there was no debris. They should have also jumped outside and looked at the elevator to check for a jam as soon as the rock got stuck in it, and pulled it out while the plane was in the air. 100% pilots' faults for failure to resurface those taxiways properly and leaving debris everywhere.
had me in the first sentence not gonna lie
100% Wrong. Pilots do NOT resurface runways or taxiways! They do NOT take brooms out onto the runways just the same as they do NOT take snow shovels out to clear snow from the runway. That is airport maintenance!. And how in the fuck can someone walk out onto a tail section when the plane is airborne? Get a grip and take your meds!
@@ohioguy215 woosh
You are wrong Sir, so wrong.
They should have went out with their vacuum cleaners. Everyone in aviation knows brooms are for mother in-laws.
@@BrandanTheBrokeragain had me in the first sentence 💀
I don't agree with that ruling, it's seems exceptionally harsh on the pilots. The flight was extremely underweight so it seems likely that in the few seconds of uncommanded rotation the copilot could have thought they had accidently trimmed incorrectly and that he needed to get it airborne before he ran out of runway since it wasn't nosing back down when commanded. The fact that the stabilizer was jammed and that it was buckled and bent proves that the pilot was attempting very hard to bring it back down but was physically unable to and the asymmetry would have made it extremely difficult to control. Given that the flight only lasted a few seconds I don't know how the pilots were expected to have diagnosed and responded in that short a time. Given that they don't know when on the takeoff roll the rocks were kicked up, blaming the pilots seems wrong. This was entirely the fault of the airport for not removing debris from the runway in my opinion.
%100 agree. These pilots had no chance. If they had had a warning light available to indicate a jammed control surface, they would have had a chance to understand their situation in time to reject the takeoff. The amount of critisicm put on the flight crew for this incident and not the airport, nor aircraft manufacturer, when the only changes made after the report were to airport maintenance and aircraft design, seems utterly ridiculous.
Unfortunately, the most obvious solution is usually the answer. Like the Mt Erebus crash, why hang the living when you can hang the dead?
It's litteraly money against reason. An airport can say, it's pilote fault, not you're fault and faa would agree.
Yes, I'm in agreement.
I absolutely agree. Seems like the pilots were unfairly scapegoated since dead men can't defend themselves.
Glad I’m not the only one who is like easy enough to blame the dead pilots
The two pilots and flight engineer had a combined total of almost 50,000 flight hours between them. That is an astronomically high amount of experience, so if those guys couldn't have possibly figured out what was wrong, let alone have had enough time to save the aircraft, then that just confirms that this situation was completely and utterly uncontrollable once they left the runway. The final report is unnecessarily harsh and scathing on the pilots who could not have possibly had enough time to figure out what the problem was, let alone have enough time to save the flight. Rest in peace to those 11 souls on board.
Agree 100% ! No mention of the Port Authority not bearing ANY responsibility knowing they had FOD all over the taxi and runways and not stepping up actions to clear it ! At the end of the day, it was the FOD that caused the crash and NOT the actions or inaction of the flight crew. It was a stone lodged in the elevator. Not like they can just walk outside and clear it like you would a leaf on your windshield.
The official report seems fantastically harsh on the pilots. The airport should of kept the runway clear of debris. And the aircraft manufacturer should of made the control surfaces less vulnerable to fouling .
They almost always were back then. The Aircraft Manufacturers and the Government Bodies that were the bulk of air travel infrastructure had a vested interest in scapegoating the dead pilots.
Should have, should've.
Someone was covering someone's a$$. Dead people can't challenge a report.
DC: Death Coffins
@@jeanlucdiscard Cute, but stupid.
I’m an asphalt construction worker here in Kansas, the US. We’ve done runway/taxiway projects before. I couldn’t even count how many times the airport authority and my bosses stressed that there can’t be ANY debris left behind. Everything’s gotta be either picked up or swept far into the grass. Always knew it could cause malfunctions/failures on planes, but seeing a video about it was great. Long time viewer here.
As a lifelong resident of Kansas, thanks for the constant work your field is required for in our state.
@@SphenForTheWin anytime! They say we’ve got the best roads in the states.. and if you go to any of the states around us, I’d say it’s true!
This accident most certainly prompted changes. Ironically my father’s company painted the lines on many airports, including the reworked concrete in Sioux City SD after the United DC-10 accident in 1989.
@@fluxerflixer1 that’s pretty neat. It’s one of those things you don’t think about … how messy resurfacing a road/runway can be
The Concorde crashed because of this (a metal piece that fell off another plane)
Whoever writes final reports like this? The crew was doomed from that unexpected jam, despire their best efforts. Debris might have been negligently left on the runway, maybe someone didn't want to pay for this blunder. RIP the victims.
Just remember, the first rule of an aircrash investigation is "Blame the Pilot". No matter what happens, blame the pilot. If it is the pilot's fault, then the maximum damages that have to be paid are about $50,000 per passenger. If the crash is caused by debris from the airport jamming a control surface, then the airport can be liable for millions of dollars per passenger. The pilot is not their to defend his actions, therefore he is guilty.
In remembrance to the victims:
Captain Joseph John May, 49
First Officer John Donald Loeffler, 47
Flight Engineer Donald Kenneth Neeley, 42
Navigator Warren McNaughton
Flight Attendant Irmagard Russo
Flight Attendant Dianne Beasley
Flight Attendant Barbara Ann Lewis, 23
Flight Attendant Juliet Lorea
Flight Attendant Margareta Lewenhaupt, 23
Flight Attendant Marica Hanifin
Flight Attendant Linda Brennan
I have seen conflicting reports on McNaughton’s role on the flight; The NY Times lists him as a navigator, while other sources list him as a FA.
The fourth name, male, was the Navigator.
@@lostvictims9769 Males were not hired as flight attendants in 1970. I flew DC8s for Capitol International the same summer. We used Navigators and 100% female FAs. TIA was exactly the same. This TIA airplane was being ferried to IAD to pickup 250 passengers going to Europe. Normal operations for Supplemental Airlines(Charter Airlines) during the regulated era. There were only about 13 Supplemental Carriers during regulation. Some of them were Overseas National, Trans International, Capitol International, World, Modern Air, Universal, Saturn, Johnson Flying Service. Over the next few years all the navigators were replaced by technology. Most started using the new INS but some tried ONS or used the system used by Pan Am and TWA using a two stage Doppler Computer and LORAN A. LORAN A was developed during WW2 to provide long range navigation for aircraft and ships. Lots of work for the pilots using it and far more complicated than entering coordinates into a INS. The Doppler flew a Rhumb line vs a great circle route of the INS.
@@georgeconway4360 this is BS. Most airlines in the world had male flight attendants way before that. The very role of the FAs was originally male. Don't spread misinformation, Mr.
@@dout0rm942 Male Flight Attendants were very rare at US airlines in 1970. There were none at the Supplemental carriers like TIA. In 1970 there were no Female Airline, Military, Corporate pilots. Things started to change around 1972 so get your history facts straight. I was a young pilot and lived it.
My guess as to why the official report blamed the pilots, is that the PA (or their insurance) did not want to pay money to the victims' families.
If the stone(s) which caused the elevator to lock into place also caused the initial uncommanded pitch-up, then the flight was doomed from that initial pitch-up -- at that point, it was already too late to successfully abort the takeoff.
Yeah, no way The Port Authority is going to let the blame be on them.
ISTR there have been cases where takeoffs past V1 have been aborted and that was a better option than taking off. But it's irrelevant because with a jammed elevator they couldn't abort the takeoff.
It was far from too late to abort. Simple, close the throttles. That is why a pilot keeps his hands on them until V1. It takes less than one second and they had at least 14 of those.
@@thewhitefalcon8539 An absolute wrong and ignorant statement.
@@georgeconway4360 Exactly. Reverse thrust, air brakes and foot brake. Getting the air brakes out would disrupt the air flow over the wings and killed the lift.
I've never even heard of this accident.
From this narration, the accident report seems incredibly unprofessional to me.
I always thought that these reports were supposed to improve future safety instead of assigning blame. Was that different 50 years ago?
Making the deceased pilots responsible for the crash that was caused by an unforseeable, fringe mechanical problem is just bad optics.
How were they supposed to know what's going on?
From their perspective, the erratic behavior of the plane could have been the result of it being unusually lightly loaded.
To me, it seems like the aim of the report was to protect the airport and the Port Authority that were allowing the operations to continue with contaminated infrastructure by putting the blame on the people who couldn't defend themselves against the allegations.
Totally agree, blaming the pilots seems totally uncalled for when they literally say that the pilots had 4 seconds to respond to this problem. The stabilizer was bent and buckled showing that the pilot was exerting massive force (especially with those old control surfaces) to try to bring the elevator down. Once airborne the asymmetry would have made it nearly impossible to control. Seems like victim blaming to distract from the airport safety lapses.
Yeah, it was pretty different 50 years ago. The last waning years of aviation's "Cowboy Era" was in the 80's. Somehow through the 80's and 90's the industry, itself seemed to back off from letting politics and "blame gaming" reduce the actual values for safety purposes in their reports. Before then, Pilots (especially Captains with their "stripes" and "wings" earned) seemed encouraged to act like their sh*t didn't stink and they were God's gifts to the world. Politics, like the Port Authorities, dirtied the reports and tried to avoid any blame or culpability, and it was a rowdy and haughty bunch to the point that people authentically had real fears about trusting them... In the interest of gaining respect as the safest actual method of travel, airlines had to buckle down on safety, and once the big money talks about no longer servicing a city for a sh*tty Port Authority, things get straightened up and squared away quick... Nothing smells like the doom of a big city hub like a multi-Billion dollar airport turned into an abandoned collection of hangars where locals drag-race instead of getting air traffic and multi-national tourism...
It's taken decades of hijackings, negligence, poor oversight, black-marketed parts and substandard servicing at the cost of MANY thousands of lives, BUT the FAA has steadily improved and the reports have become more and more focused on "What can we LEARN to be better than this?" instead of "Who's going to burn for this PR disaster?"
You can still get by as a bit of a maverick in cargo, crop dusting, and small charter craft, BUT the moment you talk about passengers, that BS get's nipped right in the ass. AND we still ARE improving. ;o)
The crew had the simple solution to save their airplane and themselves by reducing the throttle’s to idle. Their hands were on or close to the throttles and the Captain decided to takeoff which was a fatal error. The FOD caused the incident, but the crew caused the crash and their death.
So the Port Authority is resurfacing the runways? Thus leaving debris which jams and effects the control surfaces of the aircraft? Forcing it to pitch up, veer off and crash into the ground killing everyone on board? Then the pilots are blamed for all of this?
One thing not mentioned is the fact that the DC-8 uses servo tabs for elevator control. As opposed to Boeing designs there is no direct hydraulic control between the elevators and the yoke. This means that when the plane is sitting on the ground or at low speed on the takeoff roll you can’t test for a jammed elevator by moving the controls. The only thing you are actually moving is the small control tab which depends on aerodynamic effects to in-turn control the elevator. This has resulted in similar more recent crashes in MD-80 series aircraft and there really is no solution to it. The only possible way to check for a jam on the ground would be to go up in a lift and physically manipulate the elevator by hand.
Tom. The tabs move, but the elevator moves slightly when the tabs reach their movement limit point, because the elevator is not hydraulically powered (as you mentioned) there is not enough power to move the elevator with the yoke without an aerodynamic assist.
As a result of this accident there was a requirement to add an Elevator Position Indicator (EPI) nicknamed the ‘peanut gauge’ because it was very small. The controls were checked twice, once during the Before Takeoff Checklist on the taxi out and once more at 80 knots during the takeoff roll. Movement on the gauge had to be verified during the taxi out and a downward nose dip visually verified during the takeoff roll when the control yoke was pressed full forward by both pilots. If either check failed, the flight was cancelled and a taxi back was required.
This particular accident cause never happened again. The Emery at Mather in Sacramento was maintenance related, not a jammed elevator due to FOD debris. The EPI indicated all was well during taxi and the initial takeoff roll.
As good as the DC-8 was/is, there were two Achilles Heels. One was the initial lack of the EPI until this accident and the other was no wheel well fire detection (an airplane was lost because of this at Jeddah). There’s a lot of electric hydraulic pumps and control cables in the DC-8 main wheelwells, especially the left side where the Main hydraulic system reservoir resides.
I went to work for TIA in 1977. They were a very capable and profitable airline with excellent training and maintenance.
@@mannypuerta5086 Thanks for this comment. I was unaware of the addition of the EPI after this crash. I’m recalling two MD-80 series crashes, Ameristar 9363 and one at Houston where the elevators were jammed and it was only found when the aircraft wouldn’t rotate. I don’t know if the DC-9 or MD-80’s have the EPI gauge. I’ve never seen that mentioned in the reports, but I haven’t read them fully.
@@mannypuerta5086 Correct, continue!
Funny coincidence that Allec Joshua Ibay released a video on the very same accident just a day ago.😅😅
Blame the pilots. It's easy, and, in addition, if they're dead they can't reply, can they?
It is easy for the living “experts” to blame the dead pilots who suffered a jammed flight control. Imagine you are in your car on the highway and your steering wheel jams in a curve while doing 70 mph. While cars have brakes, in the air, planes can’t stop.
The result of the crash led to the installation of the EPI gauge on the Instrument panel. Elevator Position Indicator (EPI) is what it was called and it was checked while doing the flight controls check on taxi out.
There is at least one story of another DC-8 that also ended up with a jammed elevator due to runway debris. This cargo DC-8 was flown by the captain and after takeoff they reached an extremely high deck angle; a stall was imminent. However, this captain was also an aerobatic pilot. While he lost pitch control of the DC-8 due to a jammed elevator, he instinctively kicked in full rudder and split the lift vector causing the nose to drop and the plane to turn. This led to oscillations and power adjustments. But by skill mixed with luck, each time the nose went high, the captain used rudder to split the lift vector. He did this all the way around the airport and was able to even land using this technique. Not many other pilots would have thought of this. There was another DC-8, Fine Air, that crashed in Miami due to a cargo shift that moved the cg to 44% causing a nose-high attitude. The crew pushed forward on the yoke to no avail. Deck angle exceeded 30 degrees nose-up and the airspeed bled off to 80 knots resulting in a stall/crash accident just hundreds of feet past the end of runway 27R. Four on board and one one the ground lost their lives. Cause of the cg shift was due to cargo pallets not being properly locked down. They slid aft at rotation.
This crew in this film did exactly what 99% of any airline pilots would have done. Loss of flight controls is never easy. The Alaska Air MD-80 that lost pitch control due to a stuck screw-jack that decoupled is another example of an impossible situation for pilots. They paid the price for a shabby maintenance procedure. This crew and flight attendants died because of sloppy construction practices at a major airport.
I was a flight attendant for TIA back in the mid 70's. It was a charter airline on a tight budget, and it showed. I remember landing on a runway in Norway (I think, anyway snowy and icy) and we skidded for what seemed like forever. When we finally were able to disembark passengers, the look on the Captains's face said it all. We were at the very end of the runway. I quit not long afterwards and went back to college.
When you started discussing the resurfacing around the airport my eyes went wide - in the industry it's called FOD, or foreign object debris. I walked gate/apron areas countless times before aircraft arrivals to make sure the ground was clear when I worked in station ops, because broken zipper pulls are a fantastic way to ground your aircraft.
Now here’s another one I didn’t know about. I’m really digging the lesser known content. Yes I’m very happy to see the same incident from multiple perspectives, because each and every time, I have learned at least one thing that wasn’t present in another video. Folks tend to pick up on what other folks missed.
Edit: not so much missed. Just not discussed. Everyone reads the same final report, and you’ve gotta structure the video a certain way to keep the flow, so sometimes one may clip what another may keep.
But when it’s a left-field one like this, I pay extra attention. Keep it up! Also keep doing ones others have already covered, for the reasons above!
I remember TIA. I used to see their DC-8s parked at Oakland Airport all the time when I was a kid. Both TIA and World Airways were charter carriers that used a maintenance hangar there. United sometimes used the hangar as well. There would be 747s, DC-10s and other long distance planes there parked outside the hangar. The only time I ever saw a 747 SP was there. That is still my favorite variant. I wish I had a chance to fly on one, but it was cool to go out there and watch the large jets coming and going.
This is very interesting. Its a very unknown air disaster on youtube. Thank you for making this video and keep up your contact bc i love it!
Thanks for watching!
Alec Ibay covered it yesterday.
Imo the ruling was unfair on the pilots. They had very little time to notice something was wrong, let alone take corrective actions. I doubt the investigators accounted for startle effect. Makes me think of Cactus 1549
Something so small causing such a serious accident, rip to the crew
Mid 90s Cincinnati Airport Delta Expansion. Working for one of the subcontractors. Every subcontractor had to follow and escort to our destination. Many times we would drive past planes idling at the gates. You learn quick to keep your windows up. If not the heat is intense. Also we would get peppered by loose dirt sand or whatever is on the ground. I remember seeing several street cleaning trucks driving the paths the escorts would take us. These street cleaners would drive non stop.
22,000+ flight hours for a 49 year old is impressive
It is.
"the pilots should have had ample time. They only had seconds and no warning indicator. Maybe you guys should add that"
These are the worst investigators in history God dam.
Another fatal accident this time Involving the DC-8-71 not the DC-8-63 flying as Emery 17 crashed while trying to make an emergency landing back at Sacramento Mater Airport after on takeoff the Aircraft was pitching higher than usual. This was due to also the right side elevator being jammed but due to a bolt that was removed by Maintainance. Emery Worldwide was later grounded that same year due to another DC-8-71 having a landing gear issue and the FAA revoking Emery Maintainance certification and was later bought up by UPS but they never revealed it.
The flight crew was
Captain Kevin Staples
First Officer George Land
and Flight Engineer Russell Hicks
This is the BEST explanation of this crash I've seen.
Great video. I had not heard of that one. Small FYI, it is the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
I flew on a long stretched DC-8 once and it seemed really big, heavy and solid. It was an impressive airplane.
The King of the beasts, but with a short reign given the B-747, L-1011, and DC-10 showed up on the scene soon afterward.
Leave it to Allec Joshua Ibay and Disaster Breakdown to upload videos on the same accident on the same weekend
This definitely is a lesser-known crash. I only know tidbits of the crash until you uploaded. Nice work on the presentation!
Here are all of my recommendations:
1. Flydubai flight 981
2. Air India flight 855
3. Any military plane crash
4. Korean air flight 801 or 858
5. Indonesia Airasia flight 8501
6. Air Algérie flight 5017
7. Trigana Air flight 267
8. Air Inter flight 148
9. Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 (sequel to Iran Air flight 655)
10. 2006 Mumbai train bombings
11. El Faro (2015)
12. And finnally the Doña paz (1987)
I would recommend at least doing a few of these incidents.
Lemme add some:
All Nippon Airways flight 58
Canadian pacific airlines flight 402
BOAC flight 911
United flight 232
Ndola DC-6 crash
American International Airways flight 808
China Eastern Airlines flight 5735
Amagasaki Derailment
MV Sewol
Ay dude don’t forget VASP 168,TransBrasil 303
Looking forward to your future videos, thanks for all the work you put into making these!!
And what a long-lived, workhorse of an airplane it was, too.
Excellent video as always Chloe, thank you for your meticulous work :)
I thoroughly enjoyed this video as I've never heard of this accident until now. You always tell these stories so very well.
Many thanks, I love this channel, often watch when have already seen the accident on other channels, but, the graphics, the narrative, the consiceness (concision?) ie... quick and clean storie of wtf happened, I really enjoy, though i fast forward through bios of the crews. Again, my thanks!
DC: Death Coffins
"Please be aware pebbles may jam your elevators."
"Can you correct this, what should we do if that happens?"
"No. Well uh, figure it out, and don't crash."
Great content as always!!
great video, as always!
Thanks for explaining this. An earlier video on another channel did a really crappy job on this same incident, and I unsubscribed from that other channel just on the basis of its incoherence. Now, from your video and explanation, I feel I know what happened. I hope airports have improved, but the well-covered Concord disaster was triggered by the same general cause: debris on the runway.
Great work Chloe
Really needed to hear your voice today, Chloe.
How on earth a bunch of pen-pushers could come up with that decision is beyond belief! To call this one pilot error is outrageous and this decision should have seen the lot of them fired.
RIP to the 11 people on borard 🙏❤
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏻
I remember jumpseating on DHL's -73's around the year 2000. They were prehistoric even then! And I flew on a -52 from Fort Lauderdale to Detroit in January 1975; I remember looking out the window as a 9 year old at the ENORMOUS flaps that seemed to hang down nearly vertically! Boeing equipment usually has slatted flaps, Douglas is a cheap-ass airframer and their flaps were like a Cessna 172, one single piece that droops.
Shit, I'm surprised that Donald Douglas, cheap-skate of all time, didn't mandate the use of manually driven flaps like the Johnson bar arrangement in a Piper Warrior.....
You appear to be misinformed. The Flaps on the DC8 were driven by hydraulics. Now if you don’t understand the difference between flaps and elevators it may explain your thinking. The DC8 outlasted all the other 4 engine jets. Not that many years ago UPS operated a large fleet of DC8s.
@@georgeconway4360 You must be drunk. I know as an airline pilot with four Boeing type ratings that trailing edge flaps are normally driven down by hydraulics. No where in my post did I propose otherwise; Can I have one of what you are drinking? Sounds like good stuff.....
@@Flies2FLL Go back to your Warrior.
FLIES2FLL - You're opinionated but uninformed. One of the reasons that Douglas went out of business is that their airliners we OVERBUILT compared with Boeing, they they were heavier and less fuel efficient. Case in point - I worked for TIA when we got the NEW DC-8's and later the DC-10-30 models, which my dad flew. If I would have continued in my airline pilot career, I could have taken over flying the DC-10 he retired from, that went to Fed-Ex and then it would have outlasted ME, at age 65 (2015). Up until a few years ago that DC-10 (TV103, then FE303) was STILL flying for Fed-EX some 40+ years later. Similar story for the USAF where the KC-10 soldiers on (no pun intended) today.
Regarding flaps - again UNIFORMED. Both Airbus and Boeing have moved away from the complex slotted flap systems. The new 787 has a single flap system.
@@danielhawley6817 1. I am opinionated, yes.
2. Uninformed? Tell me what I wrote above that was incorrect?
3. I agree that Douglas equipment was overbuilt. But their products were often crude and overly simple as a way to save construction costs. The running joke in the industry is that the DC-8 never had TCAS because Douglas couldn't figure out how to make it work with cables and servo tabs.
4. N303FE is still flying. Though it is no longer a DC10-30, it is now known as an MD10 since the cockpit has been replaced with the cockpit of an MD11. This airplane will likely be retired within the year, since Fedex has decided to remove all MD10's. I've jumpseated on it more times than I can count.
5. Boeing bought out McDonnell-Douglas and many of their engineers went to work for Boeing, working on the 787. Perhaps this is why it has the simplified flaps? You decide. I just remember what I saw in January 1975; The flaps bent out of the DC-8's wing and there was no gap where they met the wing. And they must have used flaps 40 because it looked they were damn near vertical.
Donald Douglas was a cheap bastard and the reason they never built a competitor to the mighty 757 was that they wanted TWO airlines to put in orders, and only Delta was willing to put an order in based only upon rough specifications and concept drawings. The result is that the McDonnell Douglas product was never built. Hmm.
Now; Do I sound "uninformed" to you? I guess my 12,000 hours of flight time and four Boeing type ratings mean nothing.....
The date was so close from being 52 years to the day
An event I hadn't heard of before 👍
Me neither until it was suggested
This seems incredibly incomplete. There is no way for flight crew to realise they have a jammed elevator or trim tab from FOD in that scenario!
The free movement of all control surfaces is conducted after pushback or during the initial taxi. This event suggests loose matriarch was ingested or somehow deposited during the rotation phase.
No pilot is going move the yoke back and forth during rotation to check again for free travel of the control surfaces. Upon identifying the unresponsive elevator it would be appropriate to attempt a push/pull manoeuvre of the yoke to regain control.
This horrific event wold be akin to rotating and holding the yoke well back, the pitch up attitude of the aircraft would climb into a stall. Because the aircraft was so light it would have achieved a nose High attitude quite quickly, giving little time to attempt recovery of the aircraft before it entered the stall state.
There is no explanation of what the FOD material was, where the contaminant originated, was the onus on the airport? Forensic identification of any FOD would be performed and the runway closed until the source of such, and how it contaminated the runway due to its obvious threat to the safety of other aircraft departing. Even the risk of such contaminants being ingested into any aircraft's engines would not be tolerated.
Unless there were actions taken by the flight crew for events not mentioned in this production, I do not see how they could be criticised for an unrecoverable event.
Many features of the investigation appear to be absent from this brief spurious explanation.
I noticed in some of your videos, and here too, that you sometimes refer to an elevator setting as 12°nose up (or however many degrees) I find this confusing, the elevator being 12°up - ok, makes sense. But the elevator being in a 12° nose up position? I would think that how much elevator you need to get your nose up by 12° would depend on airspeed, trim setting, weight and balance, airdensity and so on, no?
As a result of this accident, they added a small gauge in the cockpit of all DC-8's. It is called an Elevator Position Indicator, "EPI" and was connected to a position sensor on the elevators. The EPI has a needle that moves up and down on the cockpit gauge to show the movement and position of the elevators. After this accident, it was standard procedure on takeoff for the pilot monitoring to call 80 Knots at which point the flying pilot would push the control wheel forward and watch for downward elevator deflection on the gauge. The flying pilot would then call "checked" and continue the takeoff. If that gauge didn't move it was reason to reject the takeoff.
I spent 14 years flying the DC-8 during my airline career. Pilots either loved or hated the DC-8. Most of us loved the -8. I did. I went on to fly Boeing aircraft after the DC-8 and enjoyed them just as much.
You can argue the systems design and engineering between Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus ad infinitum. They are all different engineering mindsets and each has it's good and bad points.
I just stumbled on this channel today and am really enjoying it. Wonderful, thoughtful and well done analysis of various accidents. I would love to see you do a video on UPS Flight 6 out of Dubai in September 2010. There were a lot of changes made to how inflight fires are handled because of that flight.
💯 the port authority and airports fault if debris was left!! Not pilot error
That plane picked up the debris during takeoff. How could the pilots know what was going to happen? Once you've left the ground in an unusual attitude, there's little time to correct the situation let alone figure out what to do. The blame for this crash should be placed on airport maintenance for not maintaining clean taxiways and runways. In the military we were particularly anal about cleaning up any FOD (foreign object debris) from anywhere that a plane could pick it up. This included even cigarette butts.
You don’t have to think, you have to react correctly. They should have rejected the moment the airplane auto rotated. If power was reduced to idle the nose would have immediately dropped on the nose. Thrust from all underwing engines will cause n airplane to pitch up.
@@georgeconway4360 Hard to say. When you rotate you're past the point of no return. The nose might have come down but way too late at too high of speed. That plane would have run off the runway into something.
@@adotintheshark4848 That is nonsense. There was a UAL 737 at PHL less than two months earlier that had #1 Engine come apart at rotation. Had raised the landing gear and the Captain had mistakenly thought the #2 engine had also failed so he pulled both throttles back called gear extend touched down on the runway then ran off the end and wound up in a pond. The airplane was totaled, Captain was fired because the investigation found the #2 engine had not failed. In the TIA DC8 case they auto rotated at 80 kt, hit the tail at 90 kts, left the ground below 120 kts totally out of control with 11,000 feet of runway remaining. There was ZERO chance they would have hit any thing . They had not even reached V1 when they left the ground. The only way they could have survived, and the airplane would have flown again. The chance of survival in a reject would have been 100%. If it’s hard to say then you.are uninformed.
Excellent !!!
That must have been horrific to live through. Too close to the ground for them to do anything after they got airborn. HUGELY unfair at the pilots.
Moving the control wheel does not move the elevator. The controls wheel moves the Control Tab on the elevator which moves the elevator. There is no hydraulics in the elevator. It is totally manual.
I have ALOT of years on flightlines and FOD is inescapable, however I never saw FOD reach heights like that……I suppose it’s possible but this seems like a reach. RIP to the Airmen and crew
Apparently, aviation forgot about danger considering that foreign object debris ended up contributing to the crash of that Concorde.
Could you do Thai 311 and PiA 268 both flights crashed on approached to Kathmandu but for different reasons?
Cool Video
You and Allec were working on the same crash at the same time
Wouldn't using the elevator trim to try and control the pitch have been an option?
😩 (sigh) " MAN!.... Although this particular tragedy didn't claim a large number of fatalities, I recall the 1970s & 80s decades were littered with scores of deadly commercial airline crashes. Almost daily, ' The Big Three ' networks opened their Evening News broadcasts with one or more big aviation disasters. It wasn't uncommon for the public to speculate which flight would become the next plane crash and how many lives It would claim. "
" Leaving On A Jet Plane " - Peter, Paul, & Mary
Which song does he use for his background
I have flown many times on the DC-8 and all the other first generation jetliners.
Are you sure about the count of five remaining DC-8? I find the following six registrations still active:
9S-AJG
9S-AJO
N817NA (the NASA aircraft you show in the video)
N782SP
OB-2059-P
OB-2158-P
It would be cool if you made a detailed breakdown of the 2 recent 737-8200 disasters
What the music at 7:19? & 58
I don't know how accurate the simulation footage is, but that was a massive tail strike.
I agree with others in the comment section that the pilots should not have been criticized so harshly, as it was likely not something they would have encountered in training. However I do think they should have recognized something was not right and aborted the takeoff, given how long the tail was striking along the ground (for 1250 feet). Here is the probable cause section of the NTSB's report:
"The Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was a loss of pitch control caused by the entrapment of a pointed, asphalt-covered object between the leading edge of the right elevator and the right horizontal spar web access door in the aft part of the stabilizer. The restriction to elevator movement, caused by a highly unusual and unknown condition, was not detected by the crew in time to reject the take off successfully. However, an apparent lack of crew responsiveness to a highly unusual emergency situation, coupled with the captain's failure to monitor adequately the take off, contributed to the failure to reject the take off."
Hey, you have to know that Allec Joshua Ibay has posted a video like this literally yesterday
No offence to Allec, I used to watch his videos a lot. But I think more work goes into these then does into his, it’s normally just a compilation of some random fsx in the cockpit views and subtitles over pictures.
These videos are fully scripted and the flight sim footage is far more in depth. Just look at the footage relation to a tail strike on this video.
@@Nikzaw I respect your opinion but i just made an astute observation that 2 Air disaster based channels posted the same video just 24 hrs apart
@@senabecool7232 well my apologies, the wording of the sentence did seem more like some sort of dig rather than commenting on a coincidence
Nobody has to know that honestly
I do think it’s an interesting (and somewhat amusing) coincidence that both of these channels which I enjoy post the same somewhat obscure accident within a day of each other. Great minds think alike I guess!
Among other things, my airport has a dleet of street sweepers to help prevent things like this
Guess the Investigators didn't dare to mess
with the Mafia ... I mean NY Port Authority.
Gosh, I somehow always get those two mixed up.
What addon is this?
Just remember, the first rule of an aircrash investigation is "Blame the Pilot". No matter what happens, blame the pilot. If it is the pilot's fault, then the maximum damages that have to be paid are about $50,000 per passenger. If the crash is caused by debris from the airport jamming a control surface, then the airport can be liable for millions of dollars per passenger. The pilot is not their to defend his actions, therefore he is guilty.
The jet engines and heavy planes can easily tear up fresh resurfacing if it hasn’t had time to completely cure. And at such an insanely busy airport, I wouldn’t be surprised it was rushed a bit.
Good video and thank you,. Why did they blame the pilots like that problem came out of nowhere to them, ground staff I would point finger at, sad anyway, In the ninteys I worked whit dc8 great aircraft.
That the DC 8 is extinct is news to me. There was a time when it ruled the sky. Stretched too
I am absolutely *not* an airline pilot, and I am not trying to armchair fly, but, 124kt (edit, 80kt?!) for a jetliner? That’s pretty low! Impressively low, even.
i mean, they're made to fly thousands of pounds of luggage and passengers, so on the occasions they fly without them they really zoom
The pilots use take off and landing charts to determine parameters. Weight of the plane, weather conditions, wind direction and speed etc are considered by the pilots in each flight
The DC8-63 on a short ferry flight is a rocket ship. You get to V1/Vr very quickly. In those days the F/O would keep his hands on the throttles until V1. This later changed and the Captain would keep his hands on the throttles until V1. Had this crew just pulled the throttles to idle when the airplane started to auto rotate they would have turned off the runway with more than 8000’ remaining and the try to figure out what happened. When an airplane starts to rotate uncommanded things are seriously wrong
Some fine cheap chicken wire type covering over all the gaps will prevent this issue? Obviously flexible and strong enough to match the durability of the rest of aircraft construction? It is easy to conceal your own guilt by blaming those that cannot defend themselves. I doubt any other crew would have fared any better.
"Aggravated by pilot error".
Yes, because the pilots are clearly responsible for allowing stones accumulate on the control surfaces during takeoff in such a way that they jammed the elevator in place. /s
It's absolutely degusting that the report has the nerve to blame the pilots. You're telling me that a crew with a combined total of 47,000 hours are responsible for something that was completely out of their control? What baloney!
But hey, the crew is dead, so it's not like they can protest these findings or anything...
The remedy for the problem was in the flight crew’s hands, literally. Any hand could have closed the throttles. They failed, and they died as a result.
@@georgeconway4360 Closing the throttle when a plane is already past "the point of no return" will result in overshooting the runway, which can be just as (if not more) deadly. This is assuming that the violent impact that results from hitting the ground doesn't destroy the front landing gear, which at best could lead to serious injuries and a possible write-off, and at worst could result in a large fire and debris causing the aircraft to start rolling over and disintegrating.
@@Dat-Mudkip Please! This was a DC8 that weighed 203,000 lbs according to the accident report. The airplane has a max TOW of 355,000 lbs. It was taking off from a runway that is 14,000 feet long. At the 203,000 lbs they would be in the air before using 3000’ with 11,000 remaining If they did things correctly they never would have left the ground. They should have rejected when the airplane auto rotated. If they had just reduced the power to idle the nose would have just lowered to the runway and they could spend months figuring out what happened. There is no such thing a point of no return normally, but I guess in this accident it was when the Captain said “take it off”. That guaranteed their death. Had they rejected at any of the 14 seconds to that point all would have lived and it would have made.a good story
The crew wasn’t blamed for the stone in the elevator. They were rightfully blamed for actions that actions that allowed the aircraft to go totally out of control rather than the simple action of pulling the throttles back to idle.
@@georgeconway4360 what did they do
Similiar to the Concorde accident.
You know the bad part has arrived when the times mentioned start getting more specific.
Where is your accent from?
Thank you for your videos. Please don’t do a 9/11 video. It is an especially painful topic that has already been covered more than enough. And I’d still like to see more Disaster Averted videos.
A disaster averted video on the Flight 1549 Hudson landing would be a fantastic watch!
Wow, critisising the crew? But the had already passed take off speed, they were committed to rotate... Unless they could of, in 4 seconds, somehow predicted they'd have enough runway to slow down but again, they're at V1?! Wtf?
How TF was this the pilot's fault???
Pilots need to take full responsibility.
This one was simple. New York City Union workers and FOD. A deadly cocktail.
Little tip...watch at 1.25x speed
This is one reason I hate stones.
I think the pilots were treated very badly. What happened was so u usual that tbey could not have known what to do. It appears to me that they were used as scapegoats to protect the airport authorities.
I can't believe the International Trans killed that many people on that flight
The ol' Death Capsule -8
Thats one helluva dirty plane you have there in your simulations. A DLC skin pack?
Two “flight channels” covering the same disaster with a 24-hour period.
Greta video disaster breakdown
Thanks!
Makes me wonder how often this has happened, and how thorough the runway inspections were during that time period
Calling this "pilot error" sounds a bit dodgy. Good to see that investigations itself evolved whit the airplane industry.
This is really terrible. I don't think you can blame the pilots for this.