Peer Pressure | The Crash Of United Airlines 2885
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
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This is the story of united airlines flight 2885. United Airlines flight 2885 was a cargo version of the DC 8 and on the 11th of january 1983 it was flying from cleveland hopkins international airport to Los Angeles international airport with a stopover at the Detroit metropolitan wayne county airport. The plane departed Cleveland at 1:15 am and arrived in Detroit at 1:52 am. On the ground in Detroit all was normal. Cargo was offloaded, other cargo pallets were on loaded and the first officer walked around and inspected the plane as the plane was refueled. By 2:45 am the flight crew had done their before engine start checklist and they were ready to taxi, the crew of flight 2885 asked the tower for their taxi clearance and instructions. As they taxied they did their before take off checklist. The second officer or the flight engineer calls out trim and the first officer responds with “set”.
At 2:50 am and 3 seconds the plane was cleared for take off. At 2:51 am the plane’s 4 huge engines were advanced to take off thrust and the plane rolled down the runway. According to the eyewitnesses The take off appeared normal at first. The plane thundered down the runway, all seemed well. The plane took off half or two thirds down the runway. But the eyewitnesses noticed something weird. The plane was angling up more than it should, this was starting to look less and less like a routine takeoff. They watched on as the plane climbed rapidly.
5 Seconds after takeoff the witnesses reported seeing flames from the engines under both the wings. They described the flames as coming in two short bursts and then ceasing and that it looked like fireworks in the night sky. The plane continued to climb, at about 1000 feet they started to realise that the plane was starting to bank slightly to the right. The bank got gradually worse as the plane was soon in a 90 degree right bank. The right wing was pointed straight down and the left wing straight up. Then to their shock the plane started to drop. The plane was struggling to stay in the air then at 2:52 and 11 seconds flight 2885 had crashed. Just minutes after taking off. Unfortunately for the three pilots on board, the crash was fatal. No one survived.
As with any crash the CVR and the FDR were invaluable in trying to piece together what had happened. They listen to the CVR, everything from the landing to the taxing at detroit is downright normal. Then while taxing they hear a strange exchange on the CVR. The captain and the first officer were talking about letting the flight engineer pilot the plane during this take off. The flight engineer seemed to be quite surprised by this, he said “Oh we’re going to trade now?”. Indicating that he was taken by surprise by the sudden decision to swap seats with the first officer.
The captain was described as Generous when it came to letting flight engineers fly. The captain may have influenced the decision making of the flight engineer. the flight engineer did not have an urge to fly and no one had even heard the flight engineer talk about wanting to fly. The flight engineer had been in the DC8 pilot training program and he had about 41 hours at the controls of the airplane. This is what his training records had to say about his performance
Procedural knowledge poor, tendency to overcontrol on takeoffs and landings; Heading altitude and airspeed control poor. This is not looking good for the flight engineer. On the 6th of august 1979 the instructor noted that the flight engineer in his DC8 pilot training demonstrated “inconsistent bank in steep turns” and inadvertent 40-50 degree banks. He was dropped from the DC 8 pilot program as it was doubtful that he could clear the training. The flight engineer entered first officer training for the Boeing 737. He completed the training but the records showed that he needed additional time as he was inconsistent with his maneuvers and did not plan ahead. From there his 737 training went well. Here's a quote from the training documents “... been on the 737 for three months, but is developing into a very smooth pilot”.On the 29th of april 1981 the flight engineer failed an en route check on the 737, the flight engineer had 2 dot deviations on his ILS localizer and glide slope. This is how that report was summarized “ His attitude could not be better and he is a hard worker, however he has not made normal progress in his first full year as first officer. His command ability is below average and has exhibited poor operational judgement in both IFR and VFR” On may 8th 1981 after 6 hours of simulator time the pilot received an unsatisfactory proficiency check. After this, and after talks with United
Imagine being told that you're bad at something and that something eventually kills you. Poor guy.
Imagine being told that you're a bad pilot and then the captain on your next flight says, "Here, why don't you fly the plane?"
Testosterone is a helluva substance.
IMO this was all the captain's fault. Completely unfair to put this on the FE. Captain failed at the end of the day.
i mean he wasnt aware that the other guy was so bad...but not disagreeing with u
I flew for UA as a flt. att. for more than a hot minute, but never heard of this incident. Thanks for the deep dive into this crash. I am happy to say, our pilots were always professional and I enjoyed working with them (well. most of them). Really happy to see your channel getting such great reviews!
That poor engineer 😢
This is like a surgeon telling the most incompetent person in the room to take over for them.
Just to see what happens.
Except in this case if the patient dies, so does everyone in the room.
"No-no-no! I said 'suture' not 'sever'!"
please upload more!! I’m addicted to your videos. I can tell you do so much research into every investigation. One of my new favorite channels! Keep up the great work! So much respect to you dude
Thank you so much
Sleep deficit. I wonder if these pilots had enough rest. Doing nite shift for years, one could be awake yet be in a state of unreality. Nite shift is not easy.
Jesus. The FO had an established reputation for performing checklist items improperly, plus a reputation for failing to reset trim setting after landings. He had called the trim as set before the seat switch when it had not in fact been done. NTSB noted there were SIX separate checks which, if ANY ONE of them had been performed properly, would have caught the improper trim setting and kept them from killing themselves. The FE knew perfectly well he was not to be flying--EVER--and had signed an agreement with UA to that effect after a full year of demonstrated incompetence as an FO on 737s. The PIC knew perfectly well that seat switching was a clear violation of both FAA and UA regulations (and now we know why.) Both PIC and FO ignored off-duty rest requirements (NTSB suggested possibility that this was a factor in the seat switch) and were clearly prepared to falsify documents regarding who was flying the airplane.
The first requirement for any pilot is not stick-and-rudder skills but judgement. Character matters. Integrity matters. The strength to say no matters. Nobody's career was at stake here if they'd said no. And nobody would have gotten killed if ANYBODY on that flight deck had done their job properly.
Not a single one of these guys had any excuse for this crash. NONE. Not peer pressure. Not fatigue. Not helping out a crew member who wanted to be a pilot. Fortunately they didn't manage to kill anyone on the ground. It wouldn't have been just an accident. It would have been homicide.
You're a kind individual. The FE should have said something but it's far easier to say it when it's not you. He wasn't qualified on that type but he was at least a Commercial Multi pilot with an Instrument rating and was a qualified FE. Plus he'd been in the right seat and had a few months of FO ground school and flight time plus sim time as well. That's a lot of flying time. Some folks just for lack of a better term freak out. When you jump from flying Barons, Seminoles, C421s to a 37 on up it's a little overwhelming at 1st. It's bigger, faster, heavier, more buttons and bells and it's all from the right seat. So it takes a few hours before you start figuring stuff out. Some guys don't. We had a number of flight students from Australia and New Zealand. I'm looking through some of the logbooks and some had 80 or 90 hours so it was going to be a breeze. I didn't know how many hours were required there but from the comments it looked like we'd be working on instrument ratings in a week or 2. That was the case with most. 2 could fly fine but as I chopped the throttle off, poof instant stupid, just panic. What are you going to do? Squawk 7700. We have no power what are you going to do? Right declare a may day. We're gaining airspeed because we're going down what do you want to do? Right pan pan pan. How about flying the plane? Right right how. Maybe it was me so I talked to some of the instructors and said I'm just not getting through to these guys would you mind. No problem. At the time we had 4 flight schools on the field. These guys went through every instructor on the field. The females would no longer fly with them because 1 guy almost killed them both. His arms were locked up and she was punching his arms and finally used a clipboard to break his grip. We sent them both to a flight school in TX. They knew it all just had a brain block. He got pissed at me because I wouldn't sign him off to solo and that was that. I wonder if they knew the FE had washed out? Guess it doesn't matter now. Good job man. I got to work on my car and listen to a couple of your clips. I've told a few of my flying buddies so you may pick up few more followers. We're old, don't see to well anymore and hate having to attempt reading everything.
You are kind as well. My father was the captain on flight 2885; I was 12 when he died. My father should not have allowed the swap, but in fairness he and the FO had no idea the FE had failed numerous tests and had agreed with United to remain a FE and forego bidding on any future FO positions. My father and the FO’s swap suggestion was made under the well-intended assumption that FEs desire to fly (as most do) and have not been barred from seeking FO positions (as few are). And of course had either of them known of the FE’s limitations, the swap would not have occurred and the accident might not have happened, as the mis-trimmed stabilizer would have likely been apparent to an experienced pilot at the controls, when the plane began rotation too early. I hold no animus towards the FE and imagine he may have felt pressured to sit in the FO seat, and I certainly hope his survivors feel no animus towards my father or the FO. Instead of this being a case of “dumb pilots” as several posters have stated, it was an unfortunate series of very human misjudgments and mistakes by each person in the cockpit, which would likely not have ended in tragedy for three families had they not all converged at once.
@@letitiakim4635 wow, thank you for sharing your information and sorry for your loss.. It's always easier to judge when you're not involved and have more information. Things are much different in the cockpit today and not just technology wise. CRM didn't exist when I began flying. The Captain was god, he was always right and not to be questioned. So you didn't discuss your shortcomings for fear of rejection.Today the crew work as a team and you're free to speak up and question things, weaknesses are easier to discuss and get help with. As far as the FEs they're a dying breed, computers deal with everything. Really pilots are no longer needed but that will probably never happen. Pilots switch seats all the time. Especially when you're ready to upgrade and they've got time in the air with you. To be honest I've flown different AC while jumping to work with different airlines. Some buddies and I would try to bid the same lines that had layovers in places with great golf courses. We'd get a round in here and there and get a lot of flying time in together. Like I said Monday morning quarterbacking is really easy. We're all human, all make mistakes and we wish we'd done some things differently but that's life. Unfortunately a mistake cost you your father. A lot of people will jump up on a soapbox and lecture you. The louder they are the more suspicious you should be. We don't know what people are thinking and we judge them the way we see ourselves. I always told my students that if they didn't learn something new on every flight they were doing something wrong. I'm still learning and there's boatloads I'll never know.
@@letitiakim4635 I couldn't find your original reply that I was notified about. We're just about the same age. I'm sure that this was a horrible loss for you and your family. I have a great memory and can recall this event with clarity. When I was working on getting my private pilot's license a very tragic event also occurred. It took place in the Winter of 1986; just 3 years after you lost your father. I was in my senior year of high school and about ¾ completed with my training. At the airport I trained out of (KPTK) 2 aircraft were involved in a midair collision at roughly 500 ft (agl) while in the pattern: Cessna 172 / Cessna 152. I heard about it on breaking news reports shortly after it occurred. I was able to get to the scene less than an hour after it happened. Both aircraft "locked" together when the collision happened. They came to rest in the front yard of a residential home. No one on the ground was injured. The home was directly underneath runway 27R's centerline of flight (final approach): the active runway at the time. When I initially got on scene I was sickened to see the aftermath. There were still a lot of fire rescue & police present. The occupants of both aircraft had already been rushed to the hospital by ambulances.
Some of the facts that I'll give now weren't definitively known at the time for obvious reasons. The 172 was occupied by the pilot and one passenger. The 152 was occupied solely by a student pilot. The pilot of the 172 was given clearance to land on runway 27R. It was standard procedure for aircraft to fly right hand traffic while doing pattern work. The longer parallel runway (27L) was the primary one and typically used just for take offs and landings. KPTK is an excellent airport to train from. At the time (1985/6) it was the busiest airport in Michigan due to the large number of GA & buisness aircraft traffic.
The student pilot involved in the crash was performing a number of touch-and-go's from 27R. However he was flying left traffic at the time of the collision. I'm guessing that he initially was given clearance to take off from 27L and instead of a standard right hand turn to the North (for pattern work on 27R) he was instructed to do the opposite. This wasn't uncommon to see. I'm going from memory here and not citing from the official communication transcripts.
The no.1 aircraft (172) was coming in from the north to land on 27R. He executed a right base to final turn without incident. The student pilot was instructed to extend his downwind leg for landing traffic on 27R and was told that he was going to be no.2 to land on 27R. This is where I'm vague about the communications between the tower and the 152. What I do know for sure is that the 172 was given clearance to land. The student pilot now was on a left base for 27R. He misunderstood some of the tower instructions and thought that he was cleared to land on 27R. As he started his base to final turn he collided with the 172. The 152's propeller struck the 172 just behind the rear windows and both aircraft came down as one. The 152 was in the middle of his base to final turn so when the two hit the ground the 152's tail section was at about a 70° angle (vertically) to the ground. The 172 came down to rest in the normal path of flight he was in; nose lined up with the runway"s extended centerline.
Again, what I saw sickened me when I got close to the aircraft. The "Tail Number" of the Cessna 152 was N93921. I made my first solo and first solo cross country flight in it. Our flight school had five 152's.
The student pilot was 19. We had the same instructor but he and I had never met eachother. The school had 10 full time flight instructors. He survived but with serious injuries: broken pelvis, broken back, ribs ect.
The passenger in the 172 survived as well but I didn't hear the extent of his injuries. I'm guessing that they were serious. The pilot was killed. He was the principle of a local high school in Clarkson. I recieved my private pilot's licence 2 days before I graduated.
@@letitiakim4635 Sorry for you loss. It sounds like you have a pretty good take on the circumstances and culpability.
Why did you have Aussie students? Just curious, Australian here..just fly the bloody plane first, everything else second was a bit of a mantra from my flight instructor..wings level and altitude..and that in the worst case scenario, you can try and glide a landing, just as long as you’re not falling out of the sky. I haven’t flown for years and years, ( well, I have, as a paying passenger)...far too expensive..I’m just really curious as to why Aussies came to you for training?
That poor guy. I can imagine his final words were probably "Yup. I'm not really cut to be a pilot."
Yes an unfortunate situation indeed, the captain thought he knew better than instructors and management, btw who was qualified...know your limits!!!🙏😪🛫
Gg. Hr.
Great
Rt
This has got to be one of the dumbest crashes I’ve heard of. “Here, unqualified and not-hired-for-this-job-person, you take over!” WTF???
in my opinion the absolutely dumbest crash is when that russian guy let his children to "dRiVe tHe aIrPlAnE"
it was an airbus
everyone died
fjlkagüdpgo You’re right. Even stupider, and way more fatalities.
@@fjlkagudpgo4884 Wait, what? Kids, flying an airliner? Man, that is messed up my brother. You know me, if I was 8, I would have pushed for full throttle, which could be dangerous. :/ What model of Airbus was it? It should have envelope protection.
@@thatguyalex2835 A310
@@thatguyalex2835 it is in Maci too
Nice video, good job. I like these mini crash analysis videos. With good narration, it's just the right length - and you do a good job at a nice concise description. Thx!
That is a heartbreaking discovery. Thankfully noone on the ground was injured or killed. Thank you for the video of the DC-8's takeoff and landings. 👍
Those were some really nice videos of the DC-8, really was a nice looking aircraft.
Very similar thing happened to me when flight training. Me and the instructor were chatting too much and neither of us reset the trim after a landing, ready for the next takeoff.
It was a docile old Cessna though, the visibility was perfect and I caught the problem well before it developed. I still remember it though.
What helped me catch the problem quickly was that the week before I'd read a fatal accident report where a pilot of another type of light aircraft had done the same thing, but the control force he had to exert to overcome the trim resulted in the back of his seat collapsing ( due to a faulty tilt mechanism ) and after that he was unable to recover.
Great video. I like watching airplane accident videos but many of those I watch just have captions to read but no narration. What I really enjoy with your video is that it is narrated and you tell the story and I do not have to read the text. Continue your good work, I enjoy watching your videos. :-)
Well now you get bad narration and random videos.
Exactly my views! Narration makes the difference between watching or not watching a video, as well as its lenght. The longer the better, so these 10-15 mins videos make it really enjoyable to watch.
Try recording voice under a blanket. Will cut Off room reverb and Sound much nicer!
Im getting a new mic soon once the quarantine is lifted, hopefully that improves things
Reverb is no question of microfone, but of room Site. Just try it
Sounds romantic. ;-)
@@abrahamrockers6265 microphone definitely matters dude what are you even talking about. Recording under a blanket is incredibly inconvenient - all in all a bad suggestion. Mic will fix this so he doesn't have to resort to something so unreasonable.
@@sierrasanders1048 no sheet 🌠😵🔫
Love the narration and exploration of the accident. The captain's lack of command judgment doomed it; unfortunate. Great job!
I remember this extremely well. Excellent job you did on this. This crash never did receive too much attention in the media. As time went on there was pretty much nothing mentioned of it in text &/or video. There were some small articles but they were difficult to come across. The crash occurred 2 weeks before my 15th birthday. I saved the Detroit News article. I managed to hold on to it for many years but it eventually was lost. I spent a lot of my teen years at KDTW. Plane spotting and getting on as many airliners as I could; with permission of the airline of course. I met many great pilots. I recieved my Private Pilot's License while in high school from Trade Winds Aviation Flight School (KPTK). I never did become a professional pilot but even to this day aviation is still a big part of my life.
Some capatain should let you try a take off
@@Alinduu Let's be a little more respectful, uh?
@@ericlozen9631 wasnt fun? :p
I worked for UAL from 1985 to 2002 as a Aircraft Mechanic. I remember going to training for Avionics and the instructor had audio of this crash. He used the audio and an altimeter in junction to explain the complete breakdown and foolishness of this crew. One thing that was not mentioned was the fact that the FO who traded seats was a replacement for the original FO who had reached his maximum time of flying that day. Poor foolish souls, RIP
There is some misinformation in this video. The nose is trimmed up/down depending on the loading and the weight of the aircraft at Take-off. It is not ‘always’ trimmed up. Also, the trimming is done so that the force required on the controls for take off(rotation) are consistent for each take off irrespective of the weight and load distribution. Hope this helps. Otherwise, another great video as usual.
Wow this is a strange and sad case. Had never heard of it before. Thank you for working to present it.
I love the DC 8 films you showed on this upload. What a great looking airplane it was.
Really was a nice looking aircraft, reminds me a lot of a bomber design honestly.
I flew the DC-8 a long time. The several opportunities to set the trim that you mentioned should have but didn't raise an awareness flag. The last time I check trim is the elevator check on T/O run. If you have been a DC-8 jockey and you're reading this you know what I'm talking about.
If you're a DC-8 jockey, you probably saw the film about upset, in which they cautioned that sometimes you need to - contrary to your instinct - release pressure on the elevators so the trim won't stall. One of my crews had an event similar to this - their cargo manifest was seriously in error in a -63. The aircraft over-rotated, and the crew had to go through that procedure relax the elevators a bit and use trim to get the nose down. The pilot told me he was sure he wouldn't have been able to make it happen if he had held full nose-down elevator. I also think the -63 and maybe some -61 aircraft even had beefier elevator trim motors, but still not powerful enough to overcome max elevator deflections.
Thank you so much for making these videos. Can we support your work financially?
Just because you work hard, doesn't mean everyone's going to be successful...
That's what I like to call a Frank Grimes-complex
@@RoopeRontu1999 What's Grimey up to these days?
@@gorillaau He's dead. Hope you know he's a Simpsons character appearing in a episode called "Homer's Enemy".
@@RoopeRontu1999 I knew that. :) Just trying to be aloof... like Homer.
@@gorillaau Just had to make sure. Nice try, though. :D
Great work although ive been noticing some lines which are repeated, keep an eye out :)
I used to be a transcriptionist. I can help you with your channel
Thanks, this was great. Really insightful.
This is such a sad story. Great reporting man!
I flew for an airline that at one point had around 40 permanent Second Officers. These are pilots that couldn't pass First Officer training. I was completely against the policy and believe they should have been sacked and chosen another career.
Second officers? I thought it's just Captain, First officers and Flight engineers inside the cockpit. I have never heard of second officers
Flight engineer recognized his limitations...at first. Tragic.
Captain: I know you suck at flying this aircraft but I want to go fly us!!!
Flight Engineer: Uhhh ok dude!!!
Great content and thanks to the very minimal advertising, I can enjoy listening while traveling.
Thank you and Cheers!
Very good explanation - but its very distracting to watch other planes take off and land AS you are describing the take-off situation. Better to have a model that simulates the same thing you are explaining. I find I have to close my eyes to visualize what you are explaining, not to get distracted by different airplanes doing different things.
TRIM is the first item I check and adjust in the Cockpit on any type of aircraft before the plane moves an inch. All my experience of flying in Lockheed Martin PrePar3D Flight Simulator. Trim adjustments and positions differ wildly among all aircraft models. Some more sensitive. If this pilot or copilot.
"GREAT, YOU DONE IT AGAIN".
Wow! That's an amazing story there.
Back in the 80s, I asked the 727 pilot to let me fly the plane. He got up out of the seat and I flew the plane the entire flight, changing seats before landing preps began. Now, I know I wasn't *really* flying the plane, just keeping it level and at altitude, but it was still fun.
None of the passengers seemed to care that a 19 year old, with zero flying experience, was flying their plane. Later on, I got to fly smaller planes. They were much much harder to control.
Life was different back then. Much better.
Great videos! You’ve done a really good job with these! I’ve enjoyed them so much that I’ve subscribed!! Just a friendly suggestion; you may want to invest in a better microphone. The one that’s being used sounds like it’s recorded in a bathroom lol! But regardless, good content and very well researched. Cheers
Thank you! Do check out my newer videos I’ve bought a new mic since this video was uploaded
@@MiniAirCrashInvestigation: And please _turn the volume UP!_ Even with your new videos, while the sound quality is *_much_* better, the level is still way too low. I hate to complain, because I know you put a lot of work into these videos, but it seems like this should be an easy fix.
Great Job!! happy to having me.
Strange. I was raised in Detroit and had never heard of any DC-8 Hull loss flying out of DTW (I'm old enough that I would have remembered it).
DTW had a pretty spotless reputation, before a commuter plane crashed in the winter of 1987.
Six months later, the unthinkable. NW 255 crashed into an I-94 freeway overpass.
DTW is also where the mystery of the Turkish DC-10 crash near Paris was explained. The rear cargo door of the Turkish plane blew open due to the cargo door design and/or its locking procedure - causing the door to blow open, in turn, damaging hydraulic components used to control the aircraft.
Another DC-10 blew a cargo door near Detroit. Fortunately, it didn't take the hydraulics out. They discovered the flaw in the door, and its operating procedures, in that investigation. My first trip by air was a DC-10 from DTW to MSP. Loved it!
Same also. I lived my entire life close to Detroit before I moved to FL, and I didn't recall this one either. But I sure as hell recall the puddle jumper and NW255. (The puddle jumper was 1997.) What I keep thinking about with the puddle jumper (I hate those things) is that for years, I lived underneath one of DTW's north-south traffic lanes, about 30 miles south of where the plane came down. Under different circumstances, that thing could have come down on my house.
@@shariys1
For seven years, I lived on the very western edge of Detroit.
Sometimes, large airliners, flying into DTW, would fly over and eclipse the DirecTV satellite, and I lost the signal for about two seconds.
What was the "puddle jumper"?
You referenced Air Alaska 261, and said the plane was nearly uncontrollable. Nearly Uncontrollable? They never really had control of that plane after the jackscrew jammed, the plane finally went inverted and plunged into the Pacific, that's slightly more than nearly uncontrollable.
I think the best air crash videos have good narration and good test and the aircraft depictions stick to the type. Think of it as if you are piloting an airplane. You want all information sources to be active and informative to maintain solid situational awareness.
Could I make a suggestion? The video has no correlation to the story. Maybe use a computerized program to recreate the scenario or something similar? I find it disconcerting. Thanks for considering...🙃🛫
Yeah, the video always confuses me until I remember it's not connected to the commentary. Great channel otherwise though!
Do you think the Captain would have been able to save the plane (with the wrong trim setting) ?
Basically, this was an analog/manned equivalent of the inverse of 737-Max MCAS problems
“But the pilots are supposed to re-trim the plane after it has landed” x2
So odd to have this extended narrative with NOTHING on the screen corresponds to what you're hearing....
Too bad the last words weren't discussed.
I'd image there must have been a point where both the first officer and the captain realized thing were not going well.
I'd love to know how they tried to intervene.
But maybe the shouting and warnings would just be incomprehensible?
The pilot was not generous, he was unprofessional .
Wow from all the videos and Mayday episodes I've watched just the act of switching up pilots just before takeoff let alone the experience level was a red flag. How many times are things missed due to disruptions or failure to keep a sterile cockpit. I love these videos of accidents and incidents. Saw one yesterday where the pilots had a stuck elevator that caused major control issues but hacked out a solution to get enough control to save the day.
I am sure it is a naive question. Yes I understand the elevator was trimmed wrong. After take off they must noticed the airplane angle of attack is too steep. Why not just push the side stick forward?
have you thought about using for example a flight simulator to make the video?could be a good adittion on some of the cases you get into,like on the pilot who felt asleep or in "killer confussion".
The way my jaw dropped when I heard “you wanna trade?”
I've come to learn quite a bit from this channel about commercial flights and planes in general. But the one thing that has had the biggest impression and impact on me is how the constant advancement in technology affects the industry. More so, however, is how it can be both a lifesaver and/or nightmare. Today more than ever, there seems to be no avoiding modern tech - in even the most simple of our day-to-day tasks. But at what point do we say "enough is enough"? Until the day AI takes over completely (a day which people seem to be furiously working towards), we still need to be smart and responsible human beings. Is tech an interference or a godsend? And who gets to make that call?
As it relates to aircraft, its mostly a good thing. These systems help prevent a pilot from making an serious error, help the plane fly more stable which results in better fuel economy, and puts a lot more information about the aircraft at the pilots fingertips. So in this context its been nothing but good.
The problem is when the pilots either begin to rely to heavily on these systems, or disregard what they are telling them that problems occur.
Air Transat 236 can be seen as an example of this. The pilots had all the indications they needed that there was a fuel leak, which they should have understood based on a base level understanding of jet engines. But they wrote it off as a computer glitch.
Its possible that the co-pilot of American 587 believed these systems would buffer out his extreme control inputs, but he ended up breaking the tail off instead.
Its still the human factor that dooms or saves these things, and the pilots need to remain aware of that, or these accidents will happen again.
Can you do United Airlines 585 from 1991?
Just looked at the crash site photos from that...brutal isn't the word!
My opinion is that the airlines companies, know that a pilot has many failures in the training, they shouldn't hire that person and let the captain know that the pilot can not take the control of the flight, for x or y reason
I had no clue that they would use trim for takeoff, or landing for that matter. I've watched a ton of these videos too.
Think of it like trimming a boat. Different speeds and conditions require different angles of trim. And improper trim can make steering difficult/impossible/dangerous.
10 min. Solution: Level out, and quick Down Trim. Thing is that as you down-trim and the nose comes down, then you stand the chance with too much trim-down. Put it this way, any kind of manual trim movement as the wheels leave the runway is a Bad Idea.
A DC-8 with full aft trim does not have enough elevator control to force the nose down, or keep it from pitching up uncontrollably, and the stab trim does not move fast enough to compensate. They were dead the second they throttled up for take-off.
The FE is also responsible for the crash because he didn't feel qualified enough. The captain also should've known that the FE is not a good pilot in general... It's amazing that the other two pilots didn't monitor the pitch up, banking and slow speed. Like what the actual fuck were they watching during the takeoff?!
Of all the episodes I’ve watched so far, this is the crash that could have been avoided most. Irresponsible behavior of the captain taking his job not serious enough. The flight engineer should have refused the offer.
Great work mate
Thanks mate!
@2:44 - THATʻS one of our birds! I hated the D.C.-8. Iʻd much rather have worked the L-1011ʻs instead.
Some folks just never " get the feel". And never admit it to themselves. The engineer did. Guess he wanted one last turn driving???
At first, I thought it was going to be because of cargo shifting to the back of the plane that caused it to crash. It seems like I've seen a report on a similar accident where this was the problem.
I think there was a flight out of Saudi Arabia maybe carrying jeeps and Humvees that weren't secured and shifted during takeoff
If the plane was mis-trimmed badly enough that the high attack angle was causing engine surges, why did the PIC simply not push on the stick?!
@4:20-5:20, OB-1222. Oh my gawd.... if planes could talk.
I survived (somehow) 29 years in that environment. Saw that plane everywhere, and surprised it lasted as long as it did. Little did Eastern Airlines know, when that plane was new, what it would put through later in it's life. If I recall correctly, it was retired and scrapped in Lima in the late 1990's.
Almost forgot, that plane could tell an interesting story about Manaus, Brasil.
@@davef.2811 here says "stored" but... www.planespotters.net/airframe/douglas-dc-8-60-70-ob-1222-aeronaves-del-peru/ejn89v
29 yrs. as a Miami cargo plane crewmember. God was very forgiving with me. That was quite the storied airplane.
Hmm, talk about a decision you regret making. That might have been on the captain's mind as they dropped out of the sky.
Wow. Quite a sequence of bad judgement and errors.
😲Imagine a surgery, surgeon goes 'ok chest open there's the heart...NURSE! Get in here, cut out the clot, & sew up the good ends'. WTF? Totally Captain's fault.
AS 261 wasn't a jackscrew failure, it was a human failure
1 - AS switched to a jackscrew grease that was non-spec
2 - The heavily worn jackscrew was detected in maintenance and the maintenance supervisor said to fly the plane anyway
3 - AS 261 should have made an emergency landing at SAN. AS dispatch told the captain to continue to SFO.
@1:44 The pilots activated the nitrous oxide system, or methanol injection. That's what the witnesses saw.
There is the possibility that either 2-step or antilag was set to be engaged at a preset altitude.
lol
Over pitched and compressor stall caused the flames out the rear of the engine.
@@TheBeingReal I'm aware of this. This was a joke for the car guys.
Actually early DC8’s had alcohol injection used on takeoff. That’s where the car tuners got the idea. At some point the alcohol injection was removed.
DC8Super72 Yes: piston engines. Not gas turbine.
I hear he blew the welds on his intake
Wouldn't the pre-flight inspection show the trim? Aren't the flaps retracted after landing?
Flaps isn't trim...
i love the dc-8
"satisfactually" is not a word, just sayin'.
That astute observation has raised the intelligence level of RUclips in general which is a major achievement
Maybe it is now. Sounds like a useful word to me to add my lexicon.
113 people couldn't handle the peer pressure!
Sounds like the FE would have been better at selling vacuums door to door.
Probably the case of good intentions but overall bad judgement. The captain Probably wanted to help the flight engineer gain more experience
I'm a bit surprised that nothing could be done in the *minutes* between take-off and crash... feels like there's a chunk of explanation missing?
Sadly I’ve seen people with so much enthusiasm for aviation but it just isn’t a skill for them. You can work hard at it but natural skills can’t be forced. I used to think I could get anyone through their private, now I know that’s absolutely not true.
Again, why didn't the captain take control? That's the real question. He would have immediately felt the out-of-trim condidion. Why didn't the FE know his trim button was" under his right thumb Or the captain could have just pushed his switch forward and brought the nose down. The captain should have immediately said "my airplne", grabbed the wheel, and pushed the nose over. This was painful to watch. So many dc-8's have augered in like this. Arrow Air and Fine Air (same company in Miami) and several others did similar stupid airplane tricks. But this ship was flyable. Was the captain asleep or just stoned?
I remember that...
What percent of crashes happen between sunset and sunrise vs sunrise and sunset... 70-30? Seems like the lack of daylight does not help things
In short, don't have unqualified people flying your aircraft.
What a stupid Captin. Go ahead and fly this here plane that isn't configured to fly... At night
oh so you try to fly idiot
What I don't understand is why 81 total idiots have down voted this fine report. It is certain that not one of them could have done better or even started to create this. Keep up the great work you are doing.
Because you can literally read the full report on fss.aero. It has been available for a decade or so online. That's all this guy did, he literally repeated the summary report on fss.aero. I mean, if you think that is worth an upvote, that's fine. But I think it is perfectly acceptable to give a content "creator" (and I use that word loosely) a downvote for reading from another source.
I'd say the company made a solid decision to blacklist that guy...
Starting at 2:06 that clip was taken at Miami International Airport
Darwin Award Recipients who probably didn't even make the world that much safer.
Needlessly confusing. . Most video seems to not match the audio.
No cure for stupid . I hope the captain never got his life insurance. It was a self inflicted injury
It’s so crazy and irresponsible that the pilot could even do that in the first place
God, this ones sad.
anyone else think this sounds like karate master Reed Tucker? Chop the desk into two half desks!
Should have said no. Guy knew he wasn’t ready. All the excuses for the FE I see in the comments about this is exactly why this kind of shit happens. He was an adult who knew he shouldn’t have flown. Period. No matter who asks “ready to trade?”.
Accidents and incidents just don't happen, their a chain of errors. Correct the error or errors so situation ( Probably) won't happen.
DC-8 is such a pretty aircraft with a sad history of crashes
The Boeing 707 also has a lot of crash's
The records show how incompetent the flight engineer was, but you have to wonder if the captain knew of it. It’s not as though the company releases these reports. It just goes to show that you need to be serious about following rules when it comes to safety even when it’s just cargo you’re lugging. I’ve worked for United for many many years as a flight attendant and I’ve also never heard of this accident.
Whether the captain knew or not isn't entirely relevant, fact of the matter was he wasn't qualified to fly, and odds are neither the captain or the first officer were qualified as a flight engineer.
It wouldn't have been a problem if say the flight engineer on this flight was a first officer himself and the copilot was qualified as a flight engineer. Then it wouldn't have been a problem, but that wasn't the case, and it unfortunately ended very badly.
Not everyone is cut out to be a pilot.
I really want to be a rocket scientist... But I can barely count past 10 with both hands... You SHOULDN'T let me figure out your rocket's science...
The captain could merely have taken control and put the control column forward a little to reduce AoA. It would not have been necessary to de trim in order to prevent a stall.
That is not what the NTSB said