mujhyaman thakuria You don't really quite understand that meme do you? Why would Agad hold the engines? They’re the 2 actually doing the dancing, it doesn’t make sense. Perhaps some thought is needed…
@@mrqzo6521 seems like they're both able to win, since the series is tied Anyways, my comment was just supposed to be a funny one, not the start of a fight over everyone's favorite engine 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well I understand that it used to be the other way - she'd draw all the time, so they tweaked her so that she wouldn't. Maybe they'll weaken the tweak a bit, now.
I think the human limit was what one writer called a “hundred ninety move monster”. Is Leila’s behavior such that she’ll always lapse to a slightly inferior move, going for a full point when the position is balanced? (In any case I did notice that, for all her pride going before a fall, Leila *did* manage to even out at least the *number* of Pawns again. We non-pros sometimes forget that even a throwaway extra Queen costs a Pawn!)
both of these engines have this behaviour - leela is trained by blunders (very simplyfied), thus it expects that the opponent can make a mistake and will play for it... stockfish has a setting called contempt, which means it tries to complicate positions if it sees it can lead to anything... but that is not what happened in this game - if you check the archive in tcec and their evals - both engines were evaluating this as a draw until move 134. Rh2 (which is just a blunder by lc0) when stockfish's eval jumps from 0 to 1.53 and then to over 2 in the next move and to something like 6 in 5 moves and never comes back
Its worth mentioning that the time control for this event features only a 5 second increment. Perhaps leela blundered in time pressure? All the neural networks have very inflexible evals. Leela thought it was winning on move 70, so she played like it was winning on move 140. Probably an artifact from training, where she would then go back and change her heuristics to evaluate the position correctly on move 70.
No its goal is to win and then draw so its calculations saw guaranteed wins of extremely slight possiblility long those pawn push lines which were wrong. Its neural network is still not adequately trained or lacking depth. The dance showed that it waited maximal time for mistakes on winning lines which stock fish would never fall for. Probably the 50 move without pawn push rule is too deep for training and analysis. The 50 move rule perfectly explains the exact time you would expect a neural net to fail
I wonder when the engines are moving around "dancing", stockfish (as black) maybe is using the 3 fold repetition rule to force Leela to weaken her position ever so slightly or having to accept a draw
@@brettjones327 i dont think OP was talking about psychology, I think they were suggesting that SF is tactically employing the 3 fold repetition rule to exaust leela's options. e.g. forcing leela to play out her optimal moves and then have to shift to slightly sub optimal moves to avoid 3FR, leading to Leela's multiple and sometimes dubious pawn sacrifices at the end of the middle game "dance".
I agree, its not the first game that Leela looses this way. Rather than forcing, I think there’s just one variable not adjusted properly for the draw evaluation (considers a bad move better than a draw) on Leela’s program.
@@benoplustee Yeah I wasn't talking anything about the psychology of the game, purely that Stockfish was able to calculate that making those dancing moves would be advantageous for it
The dance of engines is a very good phrase you should use it more often and make it yours👍👍👍 You have come so far agad from where you started. Cheers to you and all the best for future too👍👍👍👍
Leela: i wanna experience the feeling of love! Like humans! Designer: love always accompany with lost, you should first experience intentional lost in order to understand love. Leela: program me to loose please Designer: but leela, this is .... Leela: do it, right now
Combinations have always been the most intriguing aspect of Chess. The masters look for them, the public applauds them, the critics praise them. It is because combinations are possible that Chess is more than a lifeless mathematical exercise. They are the poetry of the game; they are to Chess what melody is to music. They represent the triumph of mind over matter.
Walking the King all the way down just to advance a pawn one square. Then all the way back and then all the fwd again to escort said pawn. I have a headache.
Engines doesn't have sense of humor. That made my day. And I watched on my TV and came here just to comment, and MY GOD 28 minutes but it didn't feel like that.
Hi agad! Continue this chess channel. Personally, your chess analysis helped me improve my games against my friends at school. Thank you and all the love from the phillipines!❤
I had a random thought, can someone correct me if I'm wrong? At 2:40, instead of Qg4, wouldn't Bxd4 be a better move? It's a free bishop because if Rxd4, it's Mate in 2 after Re1+, Rd1, Rxd1#
At 2:25 isn't there a free bishop too if you take the pawn ? as if you go back to Qg5 you can't take back the bishop back or black rook threaten check on e1 and you have to sacrifice your queen and if you take the pawn with the queen on d6 there's the backrank mate threat and again you can't take back again.
50 move draw rule is too deep for the neural network to be easily trained on. It can dance and wait for mistakes for best lines. But when one 50 move delay only lead to another 50 move delay and so on, we find where it's very hard to properly train a neural net due to rarity of positions for that situation. 3 move repetition is much easier to avoid while still having proper look ahead. Think about it. The weak spot of Alphazero also likely lies exactly here...
All this dancing around reminds me of Star Wars IV, where two old geezers gently poking each other 🤭. I'm already looking forward to: "welcome back to the good stuff" 😀
Hi, Antonio, in these days of forced watching of non-human chess, wouldn't it be nice to show for a change a centaur game (man and machine against man and machine)? I did send you one on Twitter and I do believe it would be a vast improvement in comparison to the Stockfisch - Lila games of the last few days. Of course, it is your decision.
I'm curious what happens if engines aren't given openings do they just make them up, is there certain ones they repeatedly stick to, or is it like they just can't play
Engines are programmed with moves. Neural nets learn and get better the more games they play. In a sense they can actually learn, or be more creative. Stockfish is an engine, and Leela is a neural net. Hence why leela takes more risks, and plays more human like.
Do you know why even in english the move "take en passant" is said in french? I'm french and I don't understand why, I was surprised the first time I heard an english chess game analysis, and it's still a mystery to me
Just as there are some German words in chess ("Zugzwang"), I think that early chess masters just took these words spoken by those who invented the terms and never bothered to translate them. In those times, it might would have even been insulting to translate it and take away the given term?
But why never try r f4 and rf6 in a try to break e6 pawn? (looks like move 53) (8:12) OK if rf4 maybe rf7 or rf8 was good. Looks like old chess blunder move like komodo with queen up but overpush to a lose
Imagine playing a completely drawn game, offering 3-fold-repetition opportunities all the way through, your opponent declining the draw until they have the water squeezed from their stone, playing it out 196 moves, being one move away from delivering mate... and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 they resign, on 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 turn. What a brat.
I would love to see the tactics behind the dance of the engines. They seem like mindless rook and queen moves, but I bet they are actually deeper than anyone can imagine.
![[4K] Watch SpaceX Catch A Starship Rocket From Space!!! #IFT5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pIKI7y3DTXk/mqdefault.jpg)
0:00 Hello everyone
1:21 Completely new game
7:56 Dance of the engines
9:38 10:26 10:41 12:50 Nasty discoveries
10:05 20:04 Captures captures
25:49 It was in this position
That nickname tho xD
26:13 I want to congratulate everyone for lasting 200 moves
you sir are a man of culture
I see kripps community is leaking again xD
Btw Queen Capture 20:09 (But actually Rook)
23:48 Agad repeated so many moves that he started to repeat his own
lmao! 😂🤣
This black king has steel balls penetrating alone the opponent territory with only one move to return home . Then he did it again . True warrior
Emperor AlHasan That shows how engines are unbelievable . Coming in front a queen and a rook with no space just blows my mind . Just wow
Yah this is scary
In my club we used to refer to such a manoeuvre as "the Rambo variation"
nothingisviridian Good name since Rambo was almost suicidal like those black king moves in endgame 😂😂😂
Leonidas
Michael Jackson: I am the best dancer in the world
Agadmator: Hold my stockfish and Leela
Lmao😂😂
Spassky vs Fischer - Chess Game 20, 1992 Match
--- ruclips.net/video/b52sQdYhweU/видео.html
is alpha zero participate in this contest?
mujhyaman thakuria You don't really quite understand that meme do you? Why would Agad hold the engines? They’re the 2 actually doing the dancing, it doesn’t make sense. Perhaps some thought is needed…
@@ChessMC make your videos more interesting
Is leela the opposite of anish giri?
They need to make Anish-Zero that would only go for draws even in winning positions.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Schroif yes, and also draw losing positions. Otherwise it just sucks lol
Haha
Don't get over excited.she myt win this SUFI!
"If this is not winning then it's losing"
- You understand Leela, you're about to give up another pawn, it will be losing
- Only if I don't win!
- Yes, that's what... losing mean...?
Spassky vs Fischer - Chess Game 20, 1992 Match
-===-- ruclips.net/video/b52sQdYhweU/видео.html
It can be a drawn position also....so yeah, not a comic relief
Wow those past pawns at in the end equal material again
Grumf quote from 'Alan Ford' comic book.
That felt like watching all of Lord of the Rings movies in one go.
with the black king entering deep into the enemies territory to achieve victory. where have i seen that before?
THANK YOU we are finally agreed. LOTR is boring
@@CalmaxFilm well i think your lego videos are boring but that doesnt mean millions of other people dont like it, same thing with lord of the rings.
Stockfish reminds Agadmator with his own games
This is a huge improvement for Stockfish
Such a legend
No, leela does with her looses in drawn games
@@footballfanboy4274 Yah u r absolutely correct
@@footballfanboy4274 or maybe it thinks it's playing a human hence the continuation.. hoping for a screw up with imprecise play.
"Engines don't have a sense of humor"
*resigns half a move before guaranteed checkmate*
This was the chess equivalent of watch grass grow.
Agreed, very boring this one.
Talk about disgusting engine lines, that took the cake
wow, *Engines doesnt have any sense of humor* i just cried and laughed at the same time
you are an excellent subscriber, you watched till the very end :D
Don't cry. They can't be mad at us. They can't destroy us.
@@ihateorphans buddy u didnt understand me at all
Which proves that you are not an engine.
@@Taboo08 I did understand what do u mean, but I went too far
18:07 if agadmator commented my games
Eldor503 😂
Leela's my hero
She may end up losing, but she'll never give up
Neither is stockfish. And he's also able to win 😉
@@mrqzo6521 seems like they're both able to win, since the series is tied
Anyways, my comment was just supposed to be a funny one, not the start of a fight over everyone's favorite engine 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@GustavoGplay no f u my engine better
She won't give up, unless it's to prevent a mate in 1.
But shes just absolutely trained to win. It appears as though even a draw is considered as something worse than losing by leela.
They say AIs have no personalities, yet leela acts like a stubborn warrior that prefers to die than draw
Well I understand that it used to be the other way - she'd draw all the time, so they tweaked her so that she wouldn't. Maybe they'll weaken the tweak a bit, now.
Yeh so that's not how she is programmed , don't speak if you don't know
A true Japanese warrior
Thought I caught the smiley-face pillow yawning once during this one.
"Pinning it from behind"
This is the underrated comment of the year.
I'm glad I'm not the only non-excellent subscriber.
I think the human limit was what one writer called a “hundred ninety move monster”.
Is Leila’s behavior such that she’ll always lapse to a slightly inferior move, going for a full point when the position is balanced?
(In any case I did notice that, for all her pride going before a fall, Leila *did* manage to even out at least the *number* of Pawns again. We non-pros sometimes forget that even a throwaway extra Queen costs a Pawn!)
both of these engines have this behaviour - leela is trained by blunders (very simplyfied), thus it expects that the opponent can make a mistake and will play for it... stockfish has a setting called contempt, which means it tries to complicate positions if it sees it can lead to anything...
but that is not what happened in this game - if you check the archive in tcec and their evals - both engines were evaluating this as a draw until move 134. Rh2 (which is just a blunder by lc0) when stockfish's eval jumps from 0 to 1.53 and then to over 2 in the next move and to something like 6 in 5 moves and never comes back
Its worth mentioning that the time control for this event features only a 5 second increment. Perhaps leela blundered in time pressure?
All the neural networks have very inflexible evals. Leela thought it was winning on move 70, so she played like it was winning on move 140. Probably an artifact from training, where she would then go back and change her heuristics to evaluate the position correctly on move 70.
It was clear loss and all calculated. Leela didn't manage anything.
No its goal is to win and then draw so its calculations saw guaranteed wins of extremely slight possiblility long those pawn push lines which were wrong. Its neural network is still not adequately trained or lacking depth. The dance showed that it waited maximal time for mistakes on winning lines which stock fish would never fall for. Probably the 50 move without pawn push rule is too deep for training and analysis. The 50 move rule perfectly explains the exact time you would expect a neural net to fail
I wonder when the engines are moving around "dancing", stockfish (as black) maybe is using the 3 fold repetition rule to force Leela to weaken her position ever so slightly or having to accept a draw
I agree.
@@brettjones327 i dont think OP was talking about psychology, I think they were suggesting that SF is tactically employing the 3 fold repetition rule to exaust leela's options. e.g. forcing leela to play out her optimal moves and then have to shift to slightly sub optimal moves to avoid 3FR, leading to Leela's multiple and sometimes dubious pawn sacrifices at the end of the middle game "dance".
I agree, its not the first game that Leela looses this way. Rather than forcing, I think there’s just one variable not adjusted properly for the draw evaluation (considers a bad move better than a draw) on Leela’s program.
@@benoplustee Yeah I wasn't talking anything about the psychology of the game, purely that Stockfish was able to calculate that making those dancing moves would be advantageous for it
Kinda psychological battle, and between two machines! It's so exciting, a little scary though!
What milestone do we have to reach to hear you play that guitar in the background?
8 minutes in and the dance of the engines already started.... whoo boy here we go
The dance of engines is a very good phrase you should use it more often and make it yours👍👍👍 You have come so far agad from where you started. Cheers to you and all the best for future too👍👍👍👍
I really love it when Leela never give up checking the king while trying to hold the black pawn to promote, that's the spirit
This game is better than most of sitcoms..it had me rolling from ear to ear...
"..and their dance continues..",😆😆😆😅😅😅🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for entertaning us in these dark times antonio, and if you please can show a classic it will be really appreciated.
I love those engines' games.
Havent watched this video yet but clicked instantly to come here. Go Fish!
"All of that dancing and not even reaching move 200, that's a little bit of shame."
I laughed 5 minutes nonstop :D
Leela: i wanna experience the feeling of love! Like humans!
Designer: love always accompany with lost, you should first experience intentional lost in order to understand love.
Leela: program me to loose please
Designer: but leela, this is ....
Leela: do it, right now
Has Leela just passed Turing test?
Combinations have always been the most intriguing aspect of Chess. The masters look for them, the public applauds them, the critics praise them. It is because combinations are possible that Chess is more than a lifeless mathematical exercise. They are the poetry of the game; they are to Chess what melody is to music. They represent the triumph of mind over matter.
I got scholar mated today
@@user-fartsmella69 are u stockfishes grandfather?
@@sebastianaguirre6003 yeah, my son worked on it
Stop plagiarizing people and not quoting them
Hey @@user-fartsmella69 you're a real jerk, you know that?
Please please bring more of TCEC, more of Leela, more of engines and neural nets. They are sooo goood!!!!!!
we really appreciate this amazing patience Agadmator had to make such a video! you are the best! #agadmator
Agadmator: "So, you want more computer chess games? Be careful what you wish for.." *maliciously rubs his hands
Walking the King all the way down just to advance a pawn one square. Then all the way back and then all the fwd again to escort said pawn. I have a headache.
While the other king just chilling in the corner :D
Engines doesn't have sense of humor.
That made my day.
And I watched on my TV and came here just to comment, and MY GOD 28 minutes but it didn't feel like that.
When do we return to the human-on-human action of the Morphy Saga? Although I dont believe Morphy is a human
Morphy can go away for a while
2:37 - Always good to capture an invisible enemy first.
Hi agad! Continue this chess channel. Personally, your chess analysis helped me improve my games against my friends at school. Thank you and all the love from the phillipines!❤
Flipping the board & launching pieces everywhere is the most flattering and satisfying form of resignation.
It is you Agad who deserves to be congratulated, thank you so much for the great effort you put in this game
15:52 Rook moves diagonally 😂
Given that Leela has the rule that draws are not allowed Stockfish put her in zuzgwang by move 40. Perhaps the longest zuzgwang ever produced.
"both of them eager to win the game" ...interesting statement as they "dance". gotta love engine chess.
Me: *forwards the video by 5mins*
The game:
most underrated comment
Legend has it they are still dancing…
The pawn pushing part at the end was very interesting
I hope one day I will have stockfish's confidence
13:29 "The dance continues, as the title would suggest"
Haha 😂
I had a random thought, can someone correct me if I'm wrong? At 2:40, instead of Qg4, wouldn't Bxd4 be a better move? It's a free bishop because if Rxd4, it's Mate in 2 after Re1+, Rd1, Rxd1#
Your evaluation is correct. Agad just didn't see that Bxd4 move while finding possible moves on the spot
@@OfficialFoliLucker That makes sense, thank you!
Threatening nasty discoveries is now my new favorite phrase.
no PGNs on engine games?
Did you edit out the last mouse-click in the end? Video felt incomplete.
That's a very nice quote by Steinitz
what does leela get out of this game? I know that I get more out of losing than winning. Is it the same for AI?
Keep this good work going man..love your videos
@agadmator's Chess Chanel can you cover one of Indonesia's Grandmaster Utut Adianto's games? Thanks.
Wow, chess is just like life..when u are giving your 100℅ to win or to get something you can also lose by doing some mistakes
Those engines danced for half an hour!!!
Liked just for the quote of steinz... Thats more than enough... Missin morphy engine saga though...
I think I understand why engines are so much stronger than humans now. They are immune to being hypnotized, while humans are not.
Can someone explain the d6 capture at 6:37 how can the pawn capture behind where the piece is or is that just a visual mistake
At 2:25 isn't there a free bishop too if you take the pawn ? as if you go back to Qg5 you can't take back the bishop back or black rook threaten check on e1 and you have to sacrifice your queen and if you take the pawn with the queen on d6 there's the backrank mate threat and again you can't take back again.
Wow. The thought of 196 games in a row consisting of 196 moves each.
That game was actually fun to watch
I had fallen asleep for a while, but managed to wake up after those pawn pushes had been made and SF had a winning position
Fan From India Agad..
Keep The Cool Work Up!
50 move draw rule is too deep for the neural network to be easily trained on. It can dance and wait for mistakes for best lines. But when one 50 move delay only lead to another 50 move delay and so on, we find where it's very hard to properly train a neural net due to rarity of positions for that situation. 3 move repetition is much easier to avoid while still having proper look ahead. Think about it. The weak spot of Alphazero also likely lies exactly here...
How many moves was this??? 4500???
All this dancing around reminds me of Star Wars IV, where two old geezers gently poking each other 🤭. I'm already looking forward to: "welcome back to the good stuff" 😀
16:59 "If this is not winning then it's losing." Agadmator 2020
I think that best tactic for Stockfish would be to build a fortress even with white and wait, because Leela will always try to win it
Why Leela didnt push G pawn?
Hi, Antonio, in these days of forced watching of non-human chess, wouldn't it be nice to show for a change a centaur game (man and machine against man and machine)? I did send you one on Twitter and I do believe it would be a vast improvement in comparison to the Stockfisch - Lila games of the last few days. Of course, it is your decision.
Agadmator: All of that dancing and not even reaching 200, such a shame
Me: lololololololol
I'm curious what happens if engines aren't given openings do they just make them up, is there certain ones they repeatedly stick to, or is it like they just can't play
Engines are programmed with moves. Neural nets learn and get better the more games they play. In a sense they can actually learn, or be more creative.
Stockfish is an engine, and Leela is a neural net. Hence why leela takes more risks, and plays more human like.
Why do they pre-arrange the first moves ?
Do you know why even in english the move "take en passant" is said in french?
I'm french and I don't understand why, I was surprised the first time I heard an english chess game analysis, and it's still a mystery to me
I'm from Brazil and we say "en passant" over here too
Just as there are some German words in chess ("Zugzwang"), I think that early chess masters just took these words spoken by those who invented the terms and never bothered to translate them. In those times, it might would have even been insulting to translate it and take away the given term?
En passant is universal, it's even used in turkey lol
But the move was invented (as i found) by Ruy Lopez, and he was spanish, so what the hell xD?
@@Riddlerdelex those german words are so nice to use, why translate? lmao
Engines: I do know why I repeated that.
Agad: I don’t known why I repeated that.
Please cover some Alpha zero games with leela chess zero.
6:33 did the pawn go to d5 or d4?
I fell asleep briefly, woke up again and hadn’t missed anything.
hey agadmator do you think alpha zero changed the way humans play chess like you predicted 3 years ago ?
Agadmator, pls show us some Narayanan.S.L vs. Alireza Firouzja. Nara was killing it this series, he was playing way better than his rating.
Was alpha zero part of this tournament?
A0 can't participate in any tournament
Was watching this live, got bored. Glad you decided to cover it, looked like it would eventually get interesting
11:57 what is wrong with Rd5 capturing a pawn? If black recaptures the rook you can capture the rook on e8 and exchange queens being up a pawn.
I notice agadmator didn't upload the pgn. Woulda broken the internet if he had.
At 11:08 after Gxf5 why not Rxf5 and after Exf5, Qxe8, Qxe8, Rxe8 entering a rook and pawn endgame. Is it losing for white
Bro if a queen from f7 can capture on e8 ( according to your line ) , WhY Ca'nT IT CaPtuRe THe f5 RoOk?
And btw its 12:08 timestamp
Always fight for the win!
so why at 12:09 is Queen to g1 a bad move? it's never done and they never try to support the passed g pawn.
After couple dance move, i just want to see how agad maintained his sanity to made this video...
Amazing stuff
Season 17 is the year 2017?
leela values activity and king safety with little regard for pawns, stockfish values material, with little regard for king safety.
But why never try r f4 and rf6 in a try to break e6 pawn? (looks like move 53) (8:12) OK if rf4 maybe rf7 or rf8 was good.
Looks like old chess blunder move like komodo with queen up but overpush to a lose
Well, Leela and SF knew we have a little time to waste during the quarantine watching them dance.
pls upload more of Leela v Stockfish
What an unbelievable game and your analysis is amazing. I'd like twice if I could 👍👍
Imagine playing a completely drawn game, offering 3-fold-repetition opportunities all the way through, your opponent declining the draw until they have the water squeezed from their stone, playing it out 196 moves, being one move away from delivering mate... and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 they resign, on 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 turn.
What a brat.
I would love to see the tactics behind the dance of the engines. They seem like mindless rook and queen moves, but I bet they are actually deeper than anyone can imagine.
WOW This game is definition of "improving position" little by little to a losing endgame.. At the end, Leela was cought on she's own trap..
i am noticing to many inaccuracies in the latter videos, but good content nevertheless
what happened around 6:20-6:40??..capturing pieces not there??..NYC engine hustlers huh??