This sequence with Tilly enraged me. When a chain of command exists, it must be respected by the writers room. At the very least, draw on canon instances of disrespect by a subordinate. What would Spock do? What would Riker do? What would Kira do? What would Chakotay do? What would ANY other show with a chain of command do in this instance? Hell, what would YOU do if you were her manager in an office and she said those things? Garbage writing. The train is off the tracks, on fire, and still moving full speed ahead.
I served in the military, in Canada. STD's portrayal of leadership, or the lack thereof, is so unreal as to be insane. I doubt that the writers have any military experience, and I wonder if they have any useful life experience. Regards, Dandelion Down
@@Ketraarof the many things I hate about Kurtzman Trek is this. 2009 STAR TREK the biggest problem I had with it that Kirk went from Lt. to captain I’m a few days just because Pike liked him. Everyone is unprofessional.
I have no idea what he got demoted for (I gave in and watched the first episode because I was missing Trek and had hoped for their final season the might actually try some competent writing... I was quickly corrected and haven't watched any more) but I can't imagine it could be any worse than anything Michael has done in pretty much every episode of Discovery. Michael "My brother is fucking Spock and there's no way I'll ever live up to that so I'll just do whatever the hell I like, orders be damned, and teach all those around me that insubordination is cool when you're a know-it-all" Burnham shouldn't have been an officer on that ship, let alone captain! It's no wonder her crew act like this when they've got her as a role model.
Kirk: Would have told Tilly her place. Picard: Would have rightfully given her a speech regarding *what* a Starfleet Officer is, and how they should act with morality. Sisko: Would have put the literal fear of God in her. Janeway: Would have given a good scolding and would have assigned her to clean the Warp Manifolds for five week starting at 5am. Season One Archer: Would have shoved her through an empty air lock. Why, are the crews of the Discovery and Enterprise so irredeemable and lacking of moral character? I hope that Tilly is never seen again in Star Trek. Thanks for your guys videos. It’s nice to see some objectivity in videos regarding television shows.
Can you do a video comparison between when Troi brought up something similar to the new Enterprise Captain on the "Chain of Command" episode? The way THAT crew handled a new commanding officer was way more professional
@@billkerns9258 Oh I would argue he was professional and followed his duty (though not necessarily happily) for the vast majority of the time. What got him to break that was the threat and danger to Picard. Understandable (and an XO who yells at his Captain like that probably should be relieved). He followed orders, offered his perspective and so on. He was also used to a VERY different style of command, under a Captain who encouraged him to challenge his decisions. In private at least. He was also the main point of contact between Jellico and the Crew who were more insulated from it by definition. I also think Jellico, though having good qualities, also had some major flaws. My main example is that whenever a member of the crew offered a different opinion on anything he would instantly get a lot more brusque and domineering. He seemed to take people not understanding or disagreeing with his approach as a personal challenge. Though of course even then everyone was far more professional than the soap opera nutbars masquerading as professionals in Disco
@@billkerns9258 To clarify myself, I would call his yelling at Jellico, in the situation with Picard, definitively insubordination. But it was his only act of insubordination to that point. I also think that Riker was probably morally in the right (Picard was on a mission for Starfleet, and his life was being thrown away as a negotiating tactic.), even if militarily it was a better call. Until that moment Riker may have had his misgivings, but he followed orders without real grumbling. And when Jellico gave an explanation he was completely fine, for e.g. in one scene Jellico orders a system change, Riker mentions something he thinks the Captain should know about the specs, Jellico says he was aware and explains why he needs it done. Riker is right on that. The nearest to disagreement was about the shift changes, but switching from a 3 to a 4 shift rotation is a big job that he had clearly been working on, just that it wasn't done by that point for various reasons. To be fair on insubordination as well, in private with just the 2 of them the XO is the only person on a ship who has any stance to tell the Captain that he is wrong. So long as the XO follows orders in the end and otherwise works to do the same with the crew. The loss of temper is wrong in part because Troi was there. And as for the chat with Jellico in his quarters, well the Captain made it personal first. It was a little petty on Riker's part, but it felt understandable and I never doubted that he would do the mission without issue. I think both of them ballsed up the situation tbh. Riker let his personal feelings to Picard colour his reactions. Jellico let his inability to handle even relatively reasonable questions cause him to snap when it wasn't needed. And Riker definitely should have had his own ship by that point. It is a shame that TV show conventions prevented it from happening. DS9 handled it better with the XO being non Starfleet, and the other officers getting promotions as needed. As did Voyager with the isolation meaning they couldn't get promoted from their spots. As much as I love Picard I almost think he should have left the show (narratively) after the Borg, have Riker take over as Captain and then he could be a guest star as an Admiral or Ambassador.
@@billkerns9258 I broadly agree with your point. Ruler yelling was a bad thing and the real turning point in his relationship with Jellico. Oh yes I think that Jellico did a lot that contributed to the feelings of resentment and was NOT a good captain for the Enterprise. But in the end Riker did wrong when he lost his temper. I understand it, I sympathise and think he is in the right about what they should do about Picard, but at best yelling was going to alienate the one person who could help him. As for the private chat, the impact depends a lot on chain of command and so on. As in their case the rank difference is small, Riker would be able to leave the ship soon enough/Jellico would and he was already relieved if command one could suggest he was in as big a hole as possible under Starfleet. Being relieved of command and confined to quarters (with your record being affected) - well in Starfleet absent something like mutiny leading to criminal charges nothing really worse could happen to him. One area I do think Jellico is right is in saying Riker is a bad first officer……. For him. Riker proves a good officer and commander many times in the show but he was not a good fit for Jellico. I think he would have balked under Janeway as well. But under a Picard or a Kirk his strengths would make him an asset and his weaknesses be mitigated. The Captain and XO need to fit and even good officers who do not fit together can be a bad team. Data is a fine XO for Jellico but I doubt he would have been a good fit for Sisko. Though of course if Jellico and Riker served together in a lower stakes capacity for some time I believe they could have found a way to make it work, to smooth out the rough edges and complement each other. The stress of the situation just meant they didn’t have a chance to do so. They were never going to be an amazing team but they could have been ok for long enough to move on from each other peacably
Can you imagine how incredibly ridiculous it would sound to you if someone from 900 years in the past showed up to school you on how to do your job and how to function in contemporary society?
Wow, the sheer insolence and disrespect for a superior officer...! Picard, Sisko and Janeway would never have put up with that level of insubordination.
The show's creators would argue that Starfleet are explorers, not a military organization despite all the orders and hierarchies and photon torpedos and such. Hell, even the Sally Ann has ranks and a chain of command. I wonder how long one of Secret Hideout's employees would last if they gave one of the 58 executive producers a piece of their mind?
I believe Rayner could have cut off Tilly at anytime by reminding her of his and her rank and position. This is a military vessel on a serious mission. I think.
I tried three times to watch this show but the Tilly rant put me off for good. The writers clearly have it in for military command structures but this level of disrespect is unbelievable and no one in non STD series would stand for such nonsense.
It's one thing she acts like this in front her superiors in such an insubordinate fashion but it's entirely a different thing when the show itself seems to support her action as honorable or right. Rayner really did not need to 'explain' himself to this smug idiot.
Tilly has no distance at all. She covers this up in a mantle of bubbliness, but in it´s core it´s disrespecting as heck. She can´t put herself aside and can´t imagine people could be uncomfortable around her. Overall it´s a despicable character trait.
Oh... and Lt Tilly ......the Doctor said you were up a "few" pounds at you last physical . He suggests Change your diet , cut the carbs and .... HIT THE GYM
Another great job, you two! You both deserve an AWARD for still watching this "STD" garbage. It's terrifying to realize that BOTH Mary Wiseman and Sonequa Martin-Green are about THREE YEARS OLDER than William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were during during most of the first season of TOS, but to see HOW immature that the Burnham and Tilly characters are portrayed and written in STD (which is ALSO a "staple" of ALL of the "NuTrek" shows), like comparing ADULTS (Shatner/Kirk, Nimoy/Spock) to CHILDREN (Burnham/Martin-Green, Peck/"NuSpock") In the Roddenberry-Berman "Trek" shows, they presented an "idealized, future versions" of our then current selves (1960's - 90's), where the characters were somewhat "like us" (at those time periods), but "different" and "more evolved" than us. But in the "NuTrek" shows, the writers/showrunners/actors "vision" of THEIR "futuristic selves", is a "universe" where "40 (years old) is the new 10 (years old)", and they talk, behave and pout just like a bunch of ten year olds would, and actually, I may be insulting the 10 year olds, because even THEY may be more mature than these "NuTrek" characters. But it's VERY telling that they would think that a "future" like THAT would be sustainable under ANY conditions, but it DOES explain all of the chaos that we heard about behind the scenes with their "rotating showrunners". SMH.
In episode 3, the way that Tilly was acting it sure seemed like she thought she was the Commander. I get that her and Michael-Burnham are friends. But her behavior in this episode was insubordinate and, IMO, she should be corrected. Raynor took Michael Burnham's orders and did them as he saw fit (interviewing the crew). It is Burnham's place to correct if any need be done. Not Lieutenant Tilly. But this is Michael-Burnham's ship so insubordination (as long as not against her) is not only tolerated but will most likely be rewarded -- Old Man
I would love Tilly to have tried that level of casual disrespect with Sisko or TNG level Picard. You are the military arm of the United federation of planets. You have a structured ranked hierarchy. Tilly is supposed to be an officer. Why doesn’t she act like one
Is it just me or Tilly make up and design in general, is intensionally made to look as uncomfortable as possible and something similar goes with her attitude
Discovery crew was a bunch of babies who didn't respect the chain of command. They all should've been split up once they made it to the future And then they made it so he was wrong over something
Tilly is one of the worst characters in all of the Star Trek Shows.....if not THE worst. She was one of the reasons I stopped watching discovery. She and the aweful writing^^"
Uggg, I really wish STD dialogue with drop the overly abused trope "permission to speak freely"! Not only do you know that it will be followed by some kind of nonsensical quip, it's also extra annoying becaus it's not like they don't espeak freely loosely and flippantly all the time
Tilly clearly has an intrinsic understanding of toddler culture.
This sequence with Tilly enraged me. When a chain of command exists, it must be respected by the writers room. At the very least, draw on canon instances of disrespect by a subordinate. What would Spock do? What would Riker do? What would Kira do? What would Chakotay do? What would ANY other show with a chain of command do in this instance? Hell, what would YOU do if you were her manager in an office and she said those things? Garbage writing. The train is off the tracks, on fire, and still moving full speed ahead.
Commander Rayner is by the book and smarter than Tilly
I served in the military, in Canada. STD's portrayal of leadership, or the lack thereof, is so unreal as to be insane. I doubt that the writers have any military experience, and I wonder if they have any useful life experience.
Regards,
Dandelion Down
At this point I would settle just for these people to be professionals, since they are at work.
@@Ketraarof the many things I hate about Kurtzman Trek is this. 2009 STAR TREK the biggest problem I had with it that Kirk went from Lt. to captain I’m a few days just because Pike liked him. Everyone is unprofessional.
I have no idea what he got demoted for (I gave in and watched the first episode because I was missing Trek and had hoped for their final season the might actually try some competent writing... I was quickly corrected and haven't watched any more) but I can't imagine it could be any worse than anything Michael has done in pretty much every episode of Discovery.
Michael "My brother is fucking Spock and there's no way I'll ever live up to that so I'll just do whatever the hell I like, orders be damned, and teach all those around me that insubordination is cool when you're a know-it-all" Burnham shouldn't have been an officer on that ship, let alone captain! It's no wonder her crew act like this when they've got her as a role model.
It's woke 😂
Yea, Star Trek Discovery is a disgrace when it relates to military code of conduct
The writers openly hate the military and believe it to be patriarchal oppression. They believe freedom is given by default..
Kirk: Would have told Tilly her place.
Picard: Would have rightfully given her a speech regarding *what* a Starfleet Officer is, and how they should act with morality.
Sisko: Would have put the literal fear of God in her.
Janeway: Would have given a good scolding and would have assigned her to clean the Warp Manifolds for five week starting at 5am.
Season One Archer: Would have shoved her through an empty air lock.
Why, are the crews of the Discovery and Enterprise so irredeemable and lacking of moral character? I hope that Tilly is never seen again in Star Trek. Thanks for your guys videos. It’s nice to see some objectivity in videos regarding television shows.
Just like how Georgiou, Lorca, Saru, and Pike neglected to put Michael Burnham in her place and just tolerated constant insubordination.
Can you do a video comparison between when Troi brought up something similar to the new Enterprise Captain on the "Chain of Command" episode? The way THAT crew handled a new commanding officer was way more professional
Except for Riker - was not his finest hour.
@@billkerns9258 Oh I would argue he was professional and followed his duty (though not necessarily happily) for the vast majority of the time. What got him to break that was the threat and danger to Picard. Understandable (and an XO who yells at his Captain like that probably should be relieved).
He followed orders, offered his perspective and so on. He was also used to a VERY different style of command, under a Captain who encouraged him to challenge his decisions. In private at least. He was also the main point of contact between Jellico and the Crew who were more insulated from it by definition.
I also think Jellico, though having good qualities, also had some major flaws. My main example is that whenever a member of the crew offered a different opinion on anything he would instantly get a lot more brusque and domineering. He seemed to take people not understanding or disagreeing with his approach as a personal challenge.
Though of course even then everyone was far more professional than the soap opera nutbars masquerading as professionals in Disco
@@billkerns9258 To clarify myself, I would call his yelling at Jellico, in the situation with Picard, definitively insubordination. But it was his only act of insubordination to that point. I also think that Riker was probably morally in the right (Picard was on a mission for Starfleet, and his life was being thrown away as a negotiating tactic.), even if militarily it was a better call.
Until that moment Riker may have had his misgivings, but he followed orders without real grumbling. And when Jellico gave an explanation he was completely fine, for e.g. in one scene Jellico orders a system change, Riker mentions something he thinks the Captain should know about the specs, Jellico says he was aware and explains why he needs it done. Riker is right on that. The nearest to disagreement was about the shift changes, but switching from a 3 to a 4 shift rotation is a big job that he had clearly been working on, just that it wasn't done by that point for various reasons.
To be fair on insubordination as well, in private with just the 2 of them the XO is the only person on a ship who has any stance to tell the Captain that he is wrong. So long as the XO follows orders in the end and otherwise works to do the same with the crew. The loss of temper is wrong in part because Troi was there.
And as for the chat with Jellico in his quarters, well the Captain made it personal first. It was a little petty on Riker's part, but it felt understandable and I never doubted that he would do the mission without issue.
I think both of them ballsed up the situation tbh. Riker let his personal feelings to Picard colour his reactions. Jellico let his inability to handle even relatively reasonable questions cause him to snap when it wasn't needed.
And Riker definitely should have had his own ship by that point. It is a shame that TV show conventions prevented it from happening. DS9 handled it better with the XO being non Starfleet, and the other officers getting promotions as needed. As did Voyager with the isolation meaning they couldn't get promoted from their spots.
As much as I love Picard I almost think he should have left the show (narratively) after the Borg, have Riker take over as Captain and then he could be a guest star as an Admiral or Ambassador.
@@billkerns9258 I broadly agree with your point. Ruler yelling was a bad thing and the real turning point in his relationship with Jellico. Oh yes I think that Jellico did a lot that contributed to the feelings of resentment and was NOT a good captain for the Enterprise. But in the end Riker did wrong when he lost his temper.
I understand it, I sympathise and think he is in the right about what they should do about Picard, but at best yelling was going to alienate the one person who could help him.
As for the private chat, the impact depends a lot on chain of command and so on. As in their case the rank difference is small, Riker would be able to leave the ship soon enough/Jellico would and he was already relieved if command one could suggest he was in as big a hole as possible under Starfleet. Being relieved of command and confined to quarters (with your record being affected) - well in Starfleet absent something like mutiny leading to criminal charges nothing really worse could happen to him.
One area I do think Jellico is right is in saying Riker is a bad first officer……. For him. Riker proves a good officer and commander many times in the show but he was not a good fit for Jellico. I think he would have balked under Janeway as well. But under a Picard or a Kirk his strengths would make him an asset and his weaknesses be mitigated. The Captain and XO need to fit and even good officers who do not fit together can be a bad team. Data is a fine XO for Jellico but I doubt he would have been a good fit for Sisko.
Though of course if Jellico and Riker served together in a lower stakes capacity for some time I believe they could have found a way to make it work, to smooth out the rough edges and complement each other. The stress of the situation just meant they didn’t have a chance to do so. They were never going to be an amazing team but they could have been ok for long enough to move on from each other peacably
Can you imagine how incredibly ridiculous it would sound to you if someone from 900 years in the past showed up to school you on how to do your job and how to function in contemporary society?
We can because we watched episode 3 -- Old Man
Wow, the sheer insolence and disrespect for a superior officer...!
Picard, Sisko and Janeway would never have put up with that level of insubordination.
The show's creators would argue that Starfleet are explorers, not a military organization despite all the orders and hierarchies and photon torpedos and such. Hell, even the Sally Ann has ranks and a chain of command. I wonder how long one of Secret Hideout's employees would last if they gave one of the 58 executive producers a piece of their mind?
I believe Rayner could have cut off Tilly at anytime by reminding her of his and her rank and position. This is a military vessel on a serious mission. I think.
I tried three times to watch this show but the Tilly rant put me off for good. The writers clearly have it in for military command structures but this level of disrespect is unbelievable and no one in non STD series would stand for such nonsense.
Oh, 3 and 4 year-olds must love Lt. Tilly. This show needs a parental warning.
I would not be able take 5 "seasons" of this show.
Discovery's Legacy will likely be memes.
clearly someones given her permission to eat freely..........
It's one thing she acts like this in front her superiors in such an insubordinate fashion but it's entirely a different thing when the show itself seems to support her action as honorable or right. Rayner really did not need to 'explain' himself to this smug idiot.
Who is better: Kalzara Bix in STD, or Yogurt in Spaceballs?
May the schwartz be with you!!! -Mollie 🤣
@@mollieandtheoldmanMAY DA SCHWARTZ BE WITCHA
Tilly has no distance at all. She covers this up in a mantle of bubbliness, but in it´s core it´s disrespecting as heck. She can´t put herself aside and can´t imagine people could be uncomfortable around her. Overall it´s a despicable character trait.
Oh... and Lt Tilly ......the Doctor said you were up a "few" pounds at you last physical . He suggests Change your diet , cut the carbs and .... HIT THE GYM
Another great job, you two! You both deserve an AWARD for still watching this "STD" garbage. It's terrifying to realize that BOTH Mary Wiseman and Sonequa Martin-Green are about THREE YEARS OLDER than William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were during during most of the first season of TOS, but to see HOW immature that the Burnham and Tilly characters are portrayed and written in STD (which is ALSO a "staple" of ALL of the "NuTrek" shows), like comparing ADULTS (Shatner/Kirk, Nimoy/Spock) to CHILDREN (Burnham/Martin-Green, Peck/"NuSpock")
In the Roddenberry-Berman "Trek" shows, they presented an "idealized, future versions" of our then current selves (1960's - 90's), where the characters were somewhat "like us" (at those time periods), but "different" and "more evolved" than us. But in the "NuTrek" shows, the writers/showrunners/actors "vision" of THEIR "futuristic selves", is a "universe" where "40 (years old) is the new 10 (years old)", and they talk, behave and pout just like a bunch of ten year olds would, and actually, I may be insulting the 10 year olds, because even THEY may be more mature than these "NuTrek" characters. But it's VERY telling that they would think that a "future" like THAT would be sustainable under ANY conditions, but it DOES explain all of the chaos that we heard about behind the scenes with their "rotating showrunners". SMH.
She is not qualified as Officer material.
In episode 3, the way that Tilly was acting it sure seemed like she thought she was the Commander. I get that her and Michael-Burnham are friends. But her behavior in this episode was insubordinate and, IMO, she should be corrected. Raynor took Michael Burnham's orders and did them as he saw fit (interviewing the crew). It is Burnham's place to correct if any need be done. Not Lieutenant Tilly.
But this is Michael-Burnham's ship so insubordination (as long as not against her) is not only tolerated but will most likely be rewarded -- Old Man
I would love Tilly to have tried that level of casual disrespect with Sisko or TNG level Picard.
You are the military arm of the United federation of planets. You have a structured ranked hierarchy. Tilly is supposed to be an officer. Why doesn’t she act like one
Everything wrong with Discovery in under a minute! (well there is a lot more wrong, but this is a great example!)
Tilly looks like the Karen that works in billing down on the 3rd floor.
Is it just me or Tilly make up and design in general, is intensionally made to look as uncomfortable as possible and something similar goes with her attitude
Discovery crew was a bunch of babies who didn't respect the chain of command. They all should've been split up once they made it to the future
And then they made it so he was wrong over something
Tilly is one of the worst characters in all of the Star Trek Shows.....if not THE worst. She was one of the reasons I stopped watching discovery. She and the aweful writing^^"
Tilly is annoying
Uggg, I really wish STD dialogue with drop the overly abused trope "permission to speak freely"!
Not only do you know that it will be followed by some kind of nonsensical quip, it's also extra annoying becaus it's not like they don't espeak freely loosely and flippantly all the time
What the F is this crap?