totaratree99, thanks for the good info. I came here from EducatedClimber talking about Yosemite finish, and I think there are a few issues with the Yosemite finish - one being as you point out that there is a spare loop that if pulled on will untie the knot. The other being if you tie it subtly incorrectly (by going the wrong way around the loop leg, and especially if you don't dress and set the knot) that it can morph into a Zeppelin hitch. As a rock climber for many years I have used a single bowline but finished as you finished your double bow, by feeding the tail up through the loop with the standing end. I also used just a thumb knot around the standing end to secure (not the fishermans that you show). There are several difference in rock climbing if you have the philosophy of "if you aren't flying you aren't trying", you knot gets repeated "tested", whereas with tree work it is mainly hanging and sometimes swinging. The single bowline finished as I describe is easier to untie after a fall (or repeated falls) than a figure 8, is stronger than an unfinished bowline because the loop around the standing end is not as tight (passing around 2 ropes instead of just one resulting in a less tight bend for this critical part of the knot), and is more fool-proof than the Yosemite finish. In comparison to the double bowline, it uses less rope which is important for a weight weenie rock jock wanting to climb long pitches, but probably not so important for tree work. Interested in your thoughts on this. Also nice to meet a fellow kiwi on the interweb. It's a big place out there.
PS, if I were to use a bowline in a place such as the anchor at the bottom of a tree, where I couldn't periodically inspect it, I would recommend using a fishermans as you show, rather than a thumb-knot to secure the tail. The fishermans won't loosen whereas a thumb knot is much more likely to loosen.
Hi Nick, thanks for your comments and useful insite. I do know of tree companies that switched from a bowline (one variation or another) to the double figure of eight due to the fact that bowline knots can be tied incorrectly. The problem has reduced in recent years as many companies and individuals are now using splices. A splice of course wouldn't work in rock climbing as, obviously, it requires a carabiner. I like your "if you aren't flying you aren't trying" saying:)
Agree, although I use different terninology with those knots. I assume you are refering to what I would call double overhand knot and single overhand knot. Sorry to be picky, but in my opinion too many knots get called "fishermans". Again thanks for your comment.
I've started using the Scott's Locked version of a single bowline for lead climbing. It's secure and easy to untie, and not prone to the slight risk of failure that plagues the Yosemite finish.
Good question. Both of these knots are stronger under load and more secure (less likely to undo on their own). Obviously as explained in vid the double is more fool proof in my opinion too.
Hi. Thanks for your comment. Most publications I can find have the tail on the right. Some have it behind. Regardless the Double Bowline is safer and stronger so should be chosen instead of the Yosemite for life support systems.
Good question. I do not think it would compromise the knot, however it could create the problem loop that is the issue with the yosemite. Also it would make the knot extra bulky. Cheers.
I hear that Yosemite finish end is supposed to go on the left side otherwise it'll slip through and fuck up the bowline knot. Not sure though, I think it can slip through either way.
Thanks Arian. Out of these two the double bowline for sure. If you want a self tightening knot go for a scaffold knot. Although best yet is a factory splice on the rope end.
ive converted to strictly the double bowline especially if i’m leading and will take falls, its way easier to untie than the figure 8 when loaded and pumped from a climb
I'm coming from a background in rock climbing, not tree climbing, so the context is a little different. That said, I've taught (and been taught) to tie the bowline onto a harness or other anchor point- and not just to tie it free-standing and clip it into something else. This prevents this mixup with the Yosemite bowline.
HI. Yes good point. This is one of the big differences between rock and tree climbing. The reason a connector is used for tree climbing is to make advancing your rope more efficient when changing from one Tie in Point (TiP) to another. Agree that for rock climbing the knot should be tied to the harness directly thus eliminating the risk.
totaratree99, thanks for the good info. I came here from EducatedClimber talking about Yosemite finish, and I think there are a few issues with the Yosemite finish - one being as you point out that there is a spare loop that if pulled on will untie the knot. The other being if you tie it subtly incorrectly (by going the wrong way around the loop leg, and especially if you don't dress and set the knot) that it can morph into a Zeppelin hitch. As a rock climber for many years I have used a single bowline but finished as you finished your double bow, by feeding the tail up through the loop with the standing end. I also used just a thumb knot around the standing end to secure (not the fishermans that you show). There are several difference in rock climbing if you have the philosophy of "if you aren't flying you aren't trying", you knot gets repeated "tested", whereas with tree work it is mainly hanging and sometimes swinging. The single bowline finished as I describe is easier to untie after a fall (or repeated falls) than a figure 8, is stronger than an unfinished bowline because the loop around the standing end is not as tight (passing around 2 ropes instead of just one resulting in a less tight bend for this critical part of the knot), and is more fool-proof than the Yosemite finish. In comparison to the double bowline, it uses less rope which is important for a weight weenie rock jock wanting to climb long pitches, but probably not so important for tree work. Interested in your thoughts on this.
Also nice to meet a fellow kiwi on the interweb. It's a big place out there.
PS, if I were to use a bowline in a place such as the anchor at the bottom of a tree, where I couldn't periodically inspect it, I would recommend using a fishermans as you show, rather than a thumb-knot to secure the tail. The fishermans won't loosen whereas a thumb knot is much more likely to loosen.
Hi Nick, thanks for your comments and useful insite. I do know of tree companies that switched from a bowline (one variation or another) to the double figure of eight due to the fact that bowline knots can be tied incorrectly. The problem has reduced in recent years as many companies and individuals are now using splices. A splice of course wouldn't work in rock climbing as, obviously, it requires a carabiner. I like your "if you aren't flying you aren't trying" saying:)
Agree, although I use different terninology with those knots. I assume you are refering to what I would call double overhand knot and single overhand knot. Sorry to be picky, but in my opinion too many knots get called "fishermans".
Again thanks for your comment.
@@totaratree99 Yep, and yep.
Another useful vid from your channel. Cheers :)
Glad it was helpful!
I have been using the double bowline for the last 8 years.Hasn't come loose at all by itself.
It's a great knot. 👍
I've started using the Scott's Locked version of a single bowline for lead climbing. It's secure and easy to untie, and not prone to the slight risk of failure that plagues the Yosemite finish.
Thanks for that. Stay safe. Cheers 👍
just found you and just started a very, informative piece of information thank you
Welcome! Glad it was useful.
Well explained thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
What is the advantage of this compared to a normal bowline
Good question. Both of these knots are stronger under load and more secure (less likely to undo on their own). Obviously as explained in vid the double is more fool proof in my opinion too.
on the yosemite i am pretty sure the tag end should have been on the left side
Hi. Thanks for your comment. Most publications I can find have the tail on the right. Some have it behind. Regardless the Double Bowline is safer and stronger so should be chosen instead of the Yosemite for life support systems.
@@totaratree99 yeah I am with you on that, gotta start using the double instead of yosemite
Would wrapping and finishing the double like a yosemite kinda like giving a third wrap compromise the knot?
Good question. I do not think it would compromise the knot, however it could create the problem loop that is the issue with the yosemite. Also it would make the knot extra bulky. Cheers.
I hear that Yosemite finish end is supposed to go on the left side otherwise it'll slip through and fuck up the bowline knot. Not sure though, I think it can slip through either way.
I think left is better but either way not super secure like you say. Thanks A.
How you dress it is what matters. Dress it properly & if the tail slips out, it’s still a bowline
What knot do you recommend then mate I'm very fond of your videos
Thanks Arian. Out of these two the double bowline for sure. If you want a self tightening knot go for a scaffold knot. Although best yet is a factory splice on the rope end.
ive converted to strictly the double bowline especially if i’m leading and will take falls, its way easier to untie than the figure 8 when loaded and pumped from a climb
good video
Glad you enjoyed. thanks for saying. Cheers
I'm coming from a background in rock climbing, not tree climbing, so the context is a little different. That said, I've taught (and been taught) to tie the bowline onto a harness or other anchor point- and not just to tie it free-standing and clip it into something else. This prevents this mixup with the Yosemite bowline.
HI. Yes good point. This is one of the big differences between rock and tree climbing. The reason a connector is used for tree climbing is to make advancing your rope more efficient when changing from one Tie in Point (TiP) to another.
Agree that for rock climbing the knot should be tied to the harness directly thus eliminating the risk.