As soon as politics are let in the door it's only a mater of time before the group is hollowed out and the core becomes politics. This is so reliable that there is a word for it, entryism.
Maybe I'm in the wrong corner here, but to me it's a bit counterintuitive. I'm out here practicing to dissolve the 'I', and here we are identifying with all kinds of thoughts about our sexuality, political affiliation and a bunch of other stuff. I don't get it.
In the Big Picture, all identities are equally valid but they are also equally invalid. To drive home the second point, monasteries give everyone the same outfit and haircut.
You are not alone. It's seems strange they we are trying to let go of the self while constantly talking about superficial identities. I would say one step forward two steps back, but I fear we are often just walking backwards.
@@QuickSh0t thank you for the acknowledgement. But here’s something to think about: do forwards and backwards not require a perspective to move to and/or from? To me it’s a relative term, so I’m wondering relative to who or what?
“I am a Zen practitioner who doesn’t do politics” If I may, that in itself is just another identity… you can’t escape that easily, if escape is your goal…!
I have two problems with engaged Buddhism. First, I don't like Dharma teachers using their position to impose their political beliefs on others. Second, politics always sinks to the grubbiest level of half truths and propaganda.
Yep same here. I'm in America and I got into Zen for a few years, but I needed some instruction from a Zen teacher. Long story short, I could not find a Zen Sangha that did not in some way promote a political agenda. Zen Sanghas in America tends to be mostly run by people who are very left on the political spectrum. I wouldn't mind this at all except they bring their politics into Buddhism. After searching for a "good" Sangha for awhile to no avail I now practice alone.
We have in Germany Dharma teachers too they misuse their position to propagandize and manipulate other people with their political attitude. But also you can find enough they will never lost a world about it. Could be not easy but it´s possible.
I would be interested to know if you find a sangha that is pure from this or that. Sangha is one of the three treasures and they sometimes make us uncomfortable. If Zen is about seeking comfort then I think I've been misled and practicing it all wrong.
@@cheexiong8 Bingo. There is even something to learn from having to live with politics that don't align with yours because the people holding those views are YOU too, you nondual person who is part of me and we are all together, goo goo g'joob.
My own experience involved a supposed 'disengaged Buddhist' centre changing over time to become rather narrow and harsh IMO. A mix of the English class system with it's 'upstairs downstairs' attitude dovetailed with the rather opaque 'dharma politics' of Tibetan Buddhism. A pretence of not being political yet looking down on so many of the devoted members of the sangha for not being the ' right sort of people '. Happy I left eventually.
Interesting talk and lots of comments with different points of view. Reminded me of some of the reasons I came away from a sangha after nearly forty years involvement. Still practicing and have fond and very special memories but came to understand I no longer fitted in.
Wow! I don't think anyone will feel hurt by that explanation. Bravo. Post hoc rationalisation can reveal what might be a useful belief, a conclusion x. But clarity in the moment just reveals the contents of our consciousness. There is no good or bad zazen, everything is just the contents of our experience. Before analysis of situation, there is awareness and freedom from experience. Freedom of intelligence (aka Love) is not about whether the outside world is behaving correctly.
Oh wow, this is why I've been floating sangha-free for a while...I'm a bit confused about how those committed to following the eightfold path don't see the inherent fabrication in political ideation. It makes me wonder if they are in fact....practicing at all.
@@zenconfidential25 Only in so much as that they are rituals, not direct experience. Why do we feel the need to get in there with our mental contraption and create games to get to the thing that's already plainly there.
I think the intended purpose of things like the pronoun introductions is to signal to transgender people that they wont be harassed or otherwise denigrated in the group the way they might expect to be at a group that have no explicit stance on transgenderism. Of course, zazen is apolitical but as you say the rituals surrounding it are always culturally situated. The choice to not engage with certain politics like pronoun circles or whatever a conservative equivalent would be (maybe the national anthem haha) is inevitably also a political decision because you are deciding which rituals are political and which are not. In a more liberal society, the pronoun circle thing might be so ubiquitous as to be apolitical. In a more conservative society, it might be considered politically radical.
I personally feel that I am pretty tolerant but if somebody going to impose things on other people including transgender people which interfere with the way they express themselves the way they live there lives or make other people feel unsafe to express themselves and live in a way which they personally prefer and choose to then that's definitely where I draw the line and I don't think that being willing to tolerate or let slide certain behaviors that reflect intolerance is tolerant.But that's just me and yes I will admit that I lean further towards the more liberal mentality then the conservative mentality.People might tell me that I should take some time to listen to what the other side says but as I would like to remind those people listening is not synonymous with either agreeing with or buying what somebody else is trying to sell.Various people including transgender people should be shown respect and given autonomy when it comes to various aspects of there own lives.and if anybody say anything otherwise that then I'm just simply not going to buy what they sell it doesn't matter how lovely,seductive or flattering of a way in which they want to either present or package it.
I don't think that peoples sexual orientation, peoples gender identity and the ways in which they choose to express that stuff should even be a political issue in the first place but that's just me and my liberal leaning self talking.
Early in my Zen practice, I felt an aversion to the very few formal rituals of the practice. I thought it was very strange to adopt a practice that promotes non attachment while attaching importance to rituals (such as prostrations). But, I soon recognized my aversion as an attachment 😅 While I still think they are unnecessary, Ive opened up to whatever is required of me in the moment and sometimes the moment requires 3 knee popping deep bows and some incense, it would seem. Im not too sure that the concept (in Zen in particular) of dedicating our sit to some cause makes a whole lot of sense, given that Im specifically trying to go beyond the barrier of conceptual thought in a sit, but I suppose if we can practice consideration for a cause and then put it down for the duration of zazen, then it doesnt present an obstacle to our practice.
Great points. I also still kind of have a love hate relationship with the rituals. My mentor used to say 'people are hardwired for ritual.' I wonder...
I am practicing without any ceremony without any kind of ritual Why? Because it's feet me like a glove 😊 And I have luky enough to found some zen teacher that he is like this allso And his teacher was also like this No ritual , what a Coincidence this techear is brad warner teacher . I try one time to practice with the kwan um school I was in shock the all practice is one big ritual In one session of one our you singing mor than the sitting ,it Was not for me😮 I guess you have the right teacher and technic thafit you.
I loved that you said, “says” as in “so I says to her I says…” I do that as well although it’s not regional or anything, I got it from Bart Simpson 😂 Also- thank you for existing and making videos, sincerely. I don’t want to join a dark enlightenment sit (wtf hahahaha!!!) I need less politics and opinion-having, and holy smokes do I ever need all the STFU Zazen I can get
You were absolutely right: "When you have a strong position, you create your opposite" ... well, what is the opposite of whiteish, western, liberal, secular, Mahayana practice? Theravada nationalist , conservative, lslam0phobic, monks in Sri Lanka and Myanmar. What if you consider your body as a drug-free temple? then you have a monks-free temple after testing positive for meth in Thailand Just kidding around, but all are real examples.
Really good points, thank you. There's a lot in that. Stand strong for something and somehow the opposite of that thing you stand for appears across from you, ready to rumble!
But Kevin, haven't we all "found" many things to be true that turned out to be only one angle of a prism of perspective? So Gen Z labeling so strongly has to lead to possible confusion.
I have never felt like there was anything wrong with dedicating the practice to whoever/whatever. Whenever I've heard it done, it's for ppl experiencing acute suffering, like violence or illness. I've never heard of anyone dedicating their practice to a politician, Democrat or Republican (or whatever). It's a legit compassion practice. Land Acknowledgments? Meh, it's not something I'd do, or recommend that others do, but it doesn't bother me that much because ultimately it's acknowledging history. I'm sympathetic to the intent, though it strikes me as annoyingly performative. But pronoun circles? Heck no...that's where I draw the line. I feel like that's pushing an ideology about gender identity that I don't share. I practice the Dharma/Dhamma to try to understand the origin of identity, not to validate it (even to be "nice"). I'd refuse to answer if someone asked me for my pronouns.
As soon as politics are let in the door it's only a mater of time before the group is hollowed out and the core becomes politics. This is so reliable that there is a word for it, entryism.
Never heard that word before, thank you.
Definitely "more open... and more compassionate and less of and asshole" this is so good and so needed in this wild and wacky world. Thanks again 🙏
Maybe I'm in the wrong corner here, but to me it's a bit counterintuitive. I'm out here practicing to dissolve the 'I', and here we are identifying with all kinds of thoughts about our sexuality, political affiliation and a bunch of other stuff.
I don't get it.
In the Big Picture, all identities are equally valid but they are also equally invalid.
To drive home the second point, monasteries give everyone the same outfit and haircut.
You are not alone. It's seems strange they we are trying to let go of the self while constantly talking about superficial identities. I would say one step forward two steps back, but I fear we are often just walking backwards.
@@QuickSh0t thank you for the acknowledgement. But here’s something to think about: do forwards and backwards not require a perspective to move to and/or from? To me it’s a relative term, so I’m wondering relative to who or what?
“I am a Zen practitioner who doesn’t do politics” If I may, that in itself is just another identity… you can’t escape that easily, if escape is your goal…!
I have two problems with engaged Buddhism. First, I don't like Dharma teachers using their position to impose their political beliefs on others. Second, politics always sinks to the grubbiest level of half truths and propaganda.
Yep same here. I'm in America and I got into Zen for a few years, but I needed some instruction from a Zen teacher. Long story short, I could not find a Zen Sangha that did not in some way promote a political agenda. Zen Sanghas in America tends to be mostly run by people who are very left on the political spectrum. I wouldn't mind this at all except they bring their politics into Buddhism. After searching for a "good" Sangha for awhile to no avail I now practice alone.
We have in Germany Dharma teachers too they misuse their position to propagandize and manipulate other people with their political attitude.
But also you can find enough they will never lost a world about it. Could be not easy but it´s possible.
I would be interested to know if you find a sangha that is pure from this or that. Sangha is one of the three treasures and they sometimes make us uncomfortable. If Zen is about seeking comfort then I think I've been misled and practicing it all wrong.
@@cheexiong8 Bingo. There is even something to learn from having to live with politics that don't align with yours because the people holding those views are YOU too, you nondual person who is part of me and we are all together, goo goo g'joob.
My own experience involved a supposed 'disengaged Buddhist' centre changing over time to become rather narrow and harsh IMO. A mix of the English class system with it's 'upstairs downstairs' attitude dovetailed with the rather opaque 'dharma politics' of Tibetan Buddhism. A pretence of not being political yet looking down on so many of the devoted members of the sangha for not being the ' right sort of people '. Happy I left eventually.
lol enjoyed the Brad Warner mention.
;)
Brad Warner is a fascist!
Yeah, that was hard core
I had the same cringe with our local zen center. They’ve lost their way.
Sorry to hear that. How have they lost their way?
Interesting talk and lots of comments with different points of view. Reminded me of some of the reasons I came away from a sangha after nearly forty years involvement. Still practicing and have fond and very special memories but came to understand I no longer fitted in.
Thank you my friend.
Wow! I don't think anyone will feel hurt by that explanation. Bravo. Post hoc rationalisation can reveal what might be a useful belief, a conclusion x. But clarity in the moment just reveals the contents of our consciousness. There is no good or bad zazen, everything is just the contents of our experience. Before analysis of situation, there is awareness and freedom from experience. Freedom of intelligence (aka Love) is not about whether the outside world is behaving correctly.
Thank you!
Couldn't agree more. Watching the inner "asshole" in meditation helps to liberate me from my own bullshit!!
Thanks dude!
Thank you!
Can you give a talk about expansion and contraction as taught by mister sasaki
Just watch a porn.
@@guido3771 This comment caused me sudden enlightenment
🤣 but...but...coffee's so nice ! Loved your piece on Silence & the dissolve - I felt that energy rise.
So glad it clicked. I know, coffee is so nice, I drank once again way way way way way way way way way way way way way too much this morning!
9:30 Good analysis
Great!
🙏🙏💡
Thank you! Cheers!
Oh wow, this is why I've been floating sangha-free for a while...I'm a bit confused about how those committed to following the eightfold path don't see the inherent fabrication in political ideation. It makes me wonder if they are in fact....practicing at all.
Interesting! Not into these rituals?? ;)
@@zenconfidential25 Only in so much as that they are rituals, not direct experience. Why do we feel the need to get in there with our mental contraption and create games to get to the thing that's already plainly there.
Good point. I think people really hate silence. So they (we, I should say) bookend it with context which winds up encroaching on...silence.
I think the intended purpose of things like the pronoun introductions is to signal to transgender people that they wont be harassed or otherwise denigrated in the group the way they might expect to be at a group that have no explicit stance on transgenderism. Of course, zazen is apolitical but as you say the rituals surrounding it are always culturally situated. The choice to not engage with certain politics like pronoun circles or whatever a conservative equivalent would be (maybe the national anthem haha) is inevitably also a political decision because you are deciding which rituals are political and which are not. In a more liberal society, the pronoun circle thing might be so ubiquitous as to be apolitical. In a more conservative society, it might be considered politically radical.
I personally feel that I am pretty tolerant but if somebody going to impose things on other people including transgender people which interfere with the way they express themselves the way they live there lives or make other people feel unsafe to express themselves and live in a way which they personally prefer and choose to then that's definitely where I draw the line and I don't think that being willing to tolerate or let slide certain behaviors that reflect intolerance is tolerant.But that's just me and yes I will admit that I lean further towards the more liberal mentality then the conservative mentality.People might tell me that I should take some time to listen to what the other side says but as I would like to remind those people listening is not synonymous with either agreeing with or buying what somebody else is trying to sell.Various people including transgender people should be shown respect and given autonomy when it comes to various aspects of there own lives.and if anybody say anything otherwise that then I'm just simply not going to buy what they sell it doesn't matter how lovely,seductive or flattering of a way in which they want to either present or package it.
I don't think that peoples sexual orientation, peoples gender identity and the ways in which they choose to express that stuff should even be a political issue in the first place but that's just me and my liberal leaning self talking.
Early in my Zen practice, I felt an aversion to the very few formal rituals of the practice. I thought it was very strange to adopt a practice that promotes non attachment while attaching importance to rituals (such as prostrations). But, I soon recognized my aversion as an attachment 😅 While I still think they are unnecessary, Ive opened up to whatever is required of me in the moment and sometimes the moment requires 3 knee popping deep bows and some incense, it would seem. Im not too sure that the concept (in Zen in particular) of dedicating our sit to some cause makes a whole lot of sense, given that Im specifically trying to go beyond the barrier of conceptual thought in a sit, but I suppose if we can practice consideration for a cause and then put it down for the duration of zazen, then it doesnt present an obstacle to our practice.
Great points. I also still kind of have a love hate relationship with the rituals. My mentor used to say 'people are hardwired for ritual.' I wonder...
@zenconfidential25 my morning coffee habit might be an indication of that!
I am practicing without any ceremony without any kind of ritual
Why?
Because it's feet me like a glove 😊
And I have luky enough to found some zen teacher that he is like this allso
And his teacher was also like this
No ritual , what a Coincidence this techear is brad warner teacher .
I try one time to practice with the kwan um school
I was in shock the all practice is one big ritual
In one session of one our you singing mor than the sitting ,it
Was not for me😮
I guess you have the right teacher and technic thafit you.
I'm with you on that one.
I loved that you said, “says” as in “so I says to her I says…” I do that as well although it’s not regional or anything, I got it from Bart Simpson 😂
Also- thank you for existing and making videos, sincerely.
I don’t want to join a dark enlightenment sit (wtf hahahaha!!!) I need less politics and opinion-having, and holy smokes do I ever need all the STFU Zazen I can get
Yeah thank you my friend, I need all the STFU Zazen I can get too.
Thanks 🙏
You’re welcome 😊
Gen X was really the greatest generation.
oh heck yes!!! I still read every think piece that comes out talking about Generation X!
you know what else irks me? Sorting people into groups like : Gen X,Z, Millennials... just more ways for the ego to define itself, right?
you’re probably right!
You were absolutely right: "When you have a strong position, you create your opposite" ... well, what is the opposite of whiteish, western, liberal, secular, Mahayana practice? Theravada nationalist , conservative, lslam0phobic, monks in Sri Lanka and Myanmar.
What if you consider your body as a drug-free temple? then you have a monks-free temple after testing positive for meth in Thailand
Just kidding around, but all are real examples.
Really good points, thank you. There's a lot in that. Stand strong for something and somehow the opposite of that thing you stand for appears across from you, ready to rumble!
Gen X wanted to be free in exploring their Identity.
Gen Z has made an art of labeling what they have found in their exploration.
Interesting! Did you mean that literally, that the labeling is a kind of art form?
Are you an Xer or a Zer. I'm thinking Xer...?
@@zenconfidential25Is cartogrpahy art form? Is philosophy? If so, then yes.
Y@@zenconfidential25
But Kevin, haven't we all "found" many things to be true that turned out to be only one angle of a prism of perspective? So Gen Z labeling so strongly has to lead to possible confusion.
One thing about Gen Xers is they gonna make some pronouns political lmao
I have never felt like there was anything wrong with dedicating the practice to whoever/whatever. Whenever I've heard it done, it's for ppl experiencing acute suffering, like violence or illness. I've never heard of anyone dedicating their practice to a politician, Democrat or Republican (or whatever). It's a legit compassion practice.
Land Acknowledgments? Meh, it's not something I'd do, or recommend that others do, but it doesn't bother me that much because ultimately it's acknowledging history. I'm sympathetic to the intent, though it strikes me as annoyingly performative.
But pronoun circles? Heck no...that's where I draw the line. I feel like that's pushing an ideology about gender identity that I don't share. I practice the Dharma/Dhamma to try to understand the origin of identity, not to validate it (even to be "nice"). I'd refuse to answer if someone asked me for my pronouns.